Bike Fit Myths #2 | KOPS, drop your heel, keep your knees in
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- Опубліковано 23 вер 2024
- Here's another installment in my bike fitting myths series. I will keep trying to knock off more of these because my list seems to continually grow.
KOPS - knee over pedal spindle
Dropping your heels for more power
Keeping your knees in
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I’m so glad I found this video. I’m so tired of people constantly telling me to “drop my heels”!!!!! I have done Taekwondo all of my life and dance for half of my life. I can’t un-train 30 years of pointed toes and moving on the balls of my feet, so my foot position is going to be what it is no matter how much I’m told to “practice dropping my heels.”
Also, every time I have pain, the bike shop folks bring out the weights and rulers and tell me that my fit is “perfect.” Obviously it isn’t, because my shoulders or knees or butt is screaming!
Over time, I’m learning that my body just doesn’t conform to the bike fit “rules” and this video confirms that!
My knees have been hurting for a couple years. Been moving the saddle around lately and all it does is shift the pain around to other parts of my knee 😄
do it before every ride, so the pain goes around :D
Best bike fitter in youtube by far!!! Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Very nice video. Thank you.
I can see a significant difference on my power when I keep my heal flat/down. I spent a few months focusing on correcting that, especially when I am climbing, and it really helped :)
I get the "Bar should cover your front hub" often. If two people have the same body geometry and function, but one has a longer neck, it should be clear that this is a myth. I think it falls it too the general bike sizing guideline as well.
Lerrj Lee I know! I've always thought this was the dumbest thing. And, yes, it's on the list I have, but thank you for confirming what I've always thought - that it just sounded silly
I think this illustrates perfectly the issue with having bike shop employees perform bike fits. All they have to go on is "accepted" measurements, rules, etc. I wish more bike fits were done by physical therapists.
Russell Gelhorn I know I'm biased, but I agree. There's a lot of fitting to "accepted measures" out there as you mentioned -- I call it "painting by numbers" which definitely has questionable outcomes at best. Then throw in a client with even mild complexity in their mechanics and things go sideways fast.
Thanks for watching!
It's like the McDonald's drive-thru of fitting
Thank you if somebody is getting back into the mountain biking or cycling hobby if you will or sport. The way the frames of change and Lily sizing of the bikes have changed I'm really unfamiliar so I've been really watching your videos on fitting a bike to me with minimal adjustment to say that I'm not trying to get a bike too big or too small for me and have over reach or under reach if you will to where it's comfortable. You really do have a lot of good knowledge and when I go to the bike store and look at bikes I'm taking out a lot of what you're saying with me
Thanks for this video! I think people are being too critical about their "bike fitting." I agree with you that you should follow the general rules, but adapt them to your body, or adapt your body to your bike if you can. I have friends that want to go get fitted because they worry about long term effects of a bad position, and that's cool; however, I don't think you should spend $300.00 every 6 months trying to get the perfect position. Bike life is good, but not perfect! When I switched to a road bike, my back started to hurt and I had to bring my handlebar up, it's all good now. I really think that some people try this because they want to get better performance, but you have to accept your genetic capabilities, if you are not a natural athlete, you will never be one by getting the "fit." Also, even on the same ride, your body will take different positions; for instance, when you stand, when you go "aero" or when you are relaxing upright hands off the bar, your body has to adapt to it. I change my position on the saddle all the time, thus, changing the position of the knees etc. You might have the perfect position already, you just don't know it.
+Eliseo Borrero I'd have to agree with you....
I had my bike fit months ago and what i have observed is that the bike fitter still followsed the kops and drop your heels method. I think it works well especially on climbs where you need more power
Dropping heels: when my legs are tired and I want to change how the pedal stroke impacts my muscles I will sometime slide a little bit further back on the seat and /or drop my heels. I think this is the same as ever so slightly raising the seat. For short periods (x number of pedal strokes) , for me, this changes how the suffering feels.
Great video. In general, I don't understand why pedal length doesn't get more focus. First, that obviously affects KOPS. Second, it's ridiculous that crank length usually range from 170-175, not even 3% difference, when inseam can be 30% different.
Good work as usual.
On dropping the heel and your comment that a pedal stroke is too quick to consciously control. I respectfully disagree. In my case I consciously increase ankling as my cadence drops to 90, say as the road pitches up a bit. I find this focus on technique noticeably increases my power output and hence my pace. It doesn't seem hard to consciously control each stroke.
Regarding knees waving in the wind. Various cyclists and fitters have different thoughts on this. My observation is about the way people walk. When I walk my feet point where I'm going. When I ride my feet, and knees, point where I'm going. So my knees are in line and close to the frame. But if we observe the average person as they walk, we see that they walk with splayed feet. As you say, their knees follow.
I say that if we put those people on a bike then they will pedal with their knees pointed out.
So why do those people walk like this? I don't know, so I offer guesses.
Overweight. Very common in modern society. Once you get a habit it's hard to change.
Poor gym work. Many people train unsupervised in the gym, doing weights with their knees pointing out. Maybe related to the first idea.
Poor body consciousness, by which I mean not consciously controlling their body. People who had good coaching when young tend to carry that for life. People who develop an interest in sporting pursuits after those early years don't have the same physical or neurological base.
Ok, so should those people change?
Two answers: no, or only slowly.
Their whole body has adapted to the situation. Changing risks injury.
Thanks John, love your work.
Sorry for the long-winded comment...
I'm a KOPS method violator. My inseam is 3" longer than average for my height, and I always end up about a cm forward of the axle.
If I get my hips over the cranks more, I'm able to focus on creating power from my hips and get better recruitment from my glutes and hip flexors. It feels like my hip and leg muscle groups are being utilized more uniformly.
Prior to my current saddle position, I observed KOPS, and because I had the saddle positioned so far back, my reach felt excessive and my quads would burn out quickly. Adjusting the saddle forward, with proportionate height adjustment, changed the whole dynamic of my pedal stroke and immediately saw me riding 2-3 mph faster on the flats and with better power on hills (roughly a 1-2 mph immediate improvement), which is a good thing because I'm 214 lbs. :)
Ian Snyder Sounds like you've done a good job of figuring out what works for you...
Bike Fit Adviser I worried a little bit because you mentioned a client's feet being too far under them in another video. My mechanics feel awkward when sitting further back and I was unable to generate any significant power, so I ended up moving forward and flipping my stem from +6° to -6° (my saddle has always been pointed upwards one notch from level). I understand that this may not be the best thing to do ergonomically, but it works mechanically. Anyone who's lifted weights will know the difference between how squats feel on a smith machine vs. freeweights, and this position feels more like a freeweight squat. Maybe that's why it works. But asking you about it would be akin to asking you to work for free, so maybe someone else might care to comment.
I'll volunteer that I have experienced numbness in my right hand, but I've observed that while my hips are basically square, my torso sits a bit twisted to the left, placing more weight on my right hand (right shoulder sits lower). I'm guessing it's an imbalance caused by the bi-level lumbar injury I'm trying to come back from. Surgery and two years of PT didn't quite do the trick, but I'm working on it. :)
brilliant articulation. Thanks
+MP48 thank you!
In the late '90's, fit kit sellers had the knee position measurement as part of the fit kit. I did some programming for a bike store that helped them sell bikes and get initial positioning for their customers. It's probably a good use of that measurement.
Rico Fiori Yes, it is expeditious as a quick setup tool. But the measurement itself is arbitrary and therefore won't do anything to actually get a rider in the proper position. It *may* not cause a problem though.....
Bike Fit Adviser I agree, I have seen no adverse effect in the technique. I have a student who is rolling up his shoulders and keeping his elbows straight. His seat is back far enough that his knee is behind the pedal spindle. He's experiencing numbness especially in his left hand when riding for two hours or more. My thought is we could move up the seat and/or get a shorter stem. I'm leaning to moving the seat first.
I have a general question. Why is the industry uses the 3 o'clock position of horizontal as reference? Shouldn't the reference and force generation, torque vectoring be referencing to an axis/line directly from the hip to the bottom bracket? This seem to make more sense to me from a physic standpoint instead of the 3 o'clock position from horizontal.
This one was important for me to watch and it makes perfect sense. Thanks.
I always understood keeping your knees in was done to reduce wind drag, and had nothing to do with bike fit.
I would dearly love to have a bike fit by you as following an accident ive been left with life changing injuries. Which included my sciatic nerve being damaged not having a right gluteal muscle and very little function in my right lower leg. This now means cycling for me is difficult at best and at worst increases my risk of damage to my joints. In the UK we have lots of "bike fit guru's" but non with your insight in the or look as many variable factors as you. I've had bike fits but due to my injuries "their" methods of fitting me just done work out.
Look forward to more vids 😁
Gary Bunting best of luck....
Thks John. Great explanation on some of these myths. I have always religiously followed KOPS and also was surprised of the variations on where the plumb blob should be measured from ie, dissecting the axle, end of the cranks etc. So how should I go about adjusting the saddle fore aft position now this myth is debunked? Thanks
No others solution. So, we must back to Kops method as standard saddle fitting
These videos have been very helpful for me! Thanks for sharing this info.
Does this apply to stationary bikes?
The ''keep your knees in'' actually comes from the times when pro riders used toe clips pedals. In those times, riders with varus foot structure and/or medium to high foot arch (most people...) would see their foot structure not only unsupported but actually pressed down into the sole of the shoe. So the inside of the foot was forcefully collapsed medially, forcing the ankles and knees to the inside as well.
I dont understand the bike sizing thing with KOPS. It seems like the 2 are not related in the slightest. Due to the seat tube angle, if you adjust the saddle height, your knee should always end up in the same position in relation to the pedal spindle no matter what size the frame is. If you try to achieve KOPS, where your saddle needs to be should be purely determined by seat tube angle (not related to bike size) and femur length (only loosely related to height). Considering this, can you explain how the sizing by KOPS would work?
Clear, concise, logical, excellent
would love to see what wattage riders generate with relation to the knee over pedal and how that changes with position
If the bike is too big, can we decrease the reach if we use a wider front tire and a narrower rear tire and moving the seat forward? Is it possible to also raise the front by buying a longer fork? According to my bike fitter, my bike was was too large even though I have no problem with standover clearance and the stem was replaced with a shorter one. When I had my bike fitted, my rear wheel was probably 28c and my front wheel 25c. I think they should be the same before getting a bike fit because we'll need a different seat adjustment to have KOPS.
What about sitting in posture with your arms horizontal, so your elbows make a 90 degree angle.
I've found this reduces drag because it allows for a lower body position.
So where do you start with saddle setback? And how do you decide its too far forward or back?
there is a rule of thumb. place it in the middle 1st. find your right saddle height before according to knee extension. and then you have to pay attention to how you sit on the saddle and if you search for good spots or not. nowadays bikes, it's better to have cleats more on the rear and saddle more on the front to bring your whole body over the bottom bracket. we tend to transfer the power better like this. he explained it pretty well in this video.
generally, if you feel penis numbness then your saddle is too far back. if you have the feeling that yu need to go farther back because you stress your knees too much, that means your saddle is too far forward.
@@JayB-lz6yd For Mtb hardtrail too?
Great myth busters. Thank you!
Stiff hip wear in acetibulem rotated pelvis Turn out the heels is the podiatrist method but I just be sure the seat is high enough to prevent up ward pressure on the joint
Absolute gold content, thanks! =)
Video and confirmation I was looking for a long time.. (knee over "pedal")
I couldn't get myself enough back to keep my knee drop aligned with pedal..
Always seemed uncomfy and I would keep moving forward out of the position I should be on the seat..
Tried with a bit longer stem but lately just got back to my old stem length and seat position further forward..
Also, what would you say is the ideal muscle recruitment in your legs when it comes to putting the proper power for a bit longer time..
Where you should feel the most uncomfort/lactic acid?
With a current position,
seems like I can keep switching the focus from a front side to back side of the legs just by changing the upper body position on handlebars from "hoods" to "drops" which helps me to "recover" but can still keep going as am utilizing higher percentage of muscles depends on the angle of my upper body..
Quick question as far as saddle height goes, and by the way I ride a mountain bike so it's not as important for me because I'm changing positions so much, but it's still important for the climb, if I'm at the bottom of my stroke and I can still kick my heel down my height is not overdone. I don't want to stress my knees and hips out I'm a little older thanks
I need a fix for a nerve problem in my right hip. I am strictly a recreational rider. When I get up to about 30 miles distance I start having pain along the complete lateral length of my right leg. In a relaxed standing position my right hip is resting in internal rotation and to the average Joe I look normal. But I am actually compensating for an externally rotated foot. Most of the pain I experience as a result is at night when I'm trying to sleep. Stretching helps but does not solve the problem. Eventually I just can't pedal anymore. The leg gives out but not because of pain. I lose control of the muscles. I need to retrain myself to rid myself of this problem that occurs as a result of compensating to correct the externally rotated foot. I don't want to give up cycling. My question is is there anything I can do to decrease the internal rotation occurring at the hip level that results from aligning my right foot on the pedal? I ride without clipping into pedals because I think that would make my problem worse. Is it possible that correcting the problem in walking and standing will be enough to relieve the problem in cycling? I welcome any suggestions. Thanks!
Why is the cleat placed in the forefoot rather than the heel of the shoe where one should get more power from activating the glutes by pushing down on the heel. Know there is a reason why but don’t know what it is.
"Handlebar as wide as your shoulders" is often repeated and it definetly does not work for me.
I get better glee activation by dropping the heels.
great video man thanks for the info
Darosky Geronimo Thanks!
On the book The Custom Bicycle (1979 by Michael J. Kolin & Denise M. de la Rosa), they teach the "knee to the bar" aero position, it's funny, rsrsrs.
OK, this may be a silly question...but if I have a custom bike frame made to my body measurements do I then also need a bike fitting ??
Yes, you do. You still need to acquire the correct position for your saddle, your handlebar, your brake hoods, your cleats, possibly footbeds, and the correct shape and width of saddle, correct width and bend of handlebar.
Common misconception. Consider this. Feet DO NOT travel in a circle with the peddle stroke. At the top, foot is crank arm length PLUS PEDAL STACK HEIGHT above the BB. At the bottom, foot is crank arm length MINUS PEDAL STACK HEIGHT below the BB. Only the pedal spindle travels a circle about the BB.
Actually your foot does travel in a circle, just not a circle whose center is located on the BB axis of rotation. That circle is shifted upward by an amount equal to your pedal+shoe stack height; thus the axis of rotation for your feet is that same stack hight above the axis of rotation of your BB.
How to minimize use of calf muscles?
Excellent considerations!
any thought of using a power meter like pioneer which gives vectors of your power at various points of the pedal stroke to set the correct place for the knee in terms of forward/back?
+Eli Allen great question! I like this idea in theory. I had a discussion with a PhD-holding educator that runs a human performance lab and the question he brought up was "how does the system determine the position of the crank?" This kind of caught me off guard, and I went on to research and learn that many systems (crank and pedal based systems as well as in the shoe pressure mats) estimate the cranks position based on the power profile....kind of a backwards way to do things, no? I haven't looked in a while to see how some of the newer systems are doing things. I'm sure there's still validity in using the information but I sure wish there was a direct means of establishing crank position... Definitely a "nit pick"on my part but if I'm going to invest a lot in a system I'd like it to have this capability
What? Pioneer knows the position of the crank from accelerometers and calibrates each revolution with a magnetic reed sensor. Doesn't use the strain sensors that are used for power at all.
well gyroscope more then accelerometer
Okkkk KOPS is a myth. But how much forward can we place the saddle? How many cm in front of the crank ?
I think a bike fitting myth is to sit on a table and dangle your legs to see how your feet splay out to determine the angle of cleat placement relative to cycling shoes. I think this exaggerates the angle. I think it is better to squat down and jump up a few times to get a better indication of cleat angle with your feet and legs under load.
I recently realized my bike is several cm too big for me. What should I watch out for and how can I best help correct for it until I can replace the bike?
Ethan C The main thing to look for is poor overall balance on the bike which results in all sorts of problems -- saddle discomfort, numb hands, quad dominant pedaling. As for correcting, you just need to do what you have to do to make the bike mechanically work for you. Aside from that, work on your body's symmetry and balance through some dedicated exercises and mobility work
How about this for a myth - feet travel in a circle. They do not. Let's say I have 175mm cranks. At the bottom of the pedal stroke, the foot is in a position that is closer to the BB spindle than 175 mm. At the top of the pedal stroke, the foot is farther away from the BB spindle than 175 mm. Only same distance from BB spindle at 3 and 9 position. Thoughts?
*seems to me that's still a circle - it's just a circle that overall is about 1/2 higher than the circle projected by the center of the pedal axle.
peace sir, weeks ago i watched ur video about crank length,
if we change from 175 to 165, how much change should we make on saddle position? thanks
It's best to start with a small change (
Someday a wise person will develop a comprehensive diagnostic key that anyone can step through, whereby any sort of ache or fit-related issue can be figured out. For example, "upper neck pain, when on extended climbs but not on flat ground" = bars too (**), stem too (**).
+z1522 I like the idea of this and have worked up a few versions myself. The difficulty is that the flow chart or rubric or diagram, whatever you want it to look like, gets extremely messy and complex very quickly. Primarily because of tertiary (and beyond) effects. To take your example of "upper neck pain when on extended climbs but not flat ground = bars too (**), stem too (**). -- except if you have saddle pressure (**) or if your hands feel (**) while at the same time your shoulders are positioned like (**)"
I know that seems like an absurd thing but it's unfortunately how things go. I do really like the idea though... Thanks for posting.
Morpho-Logics comes pretty close to blending trig with physiology, but you might need to brush up on your french to do business with them. Their focus is posture studies. The business of mapping appropriate triangles from knowing foot to hip socket length [inseam is close enough most of the time], hip to shoulder length, then a persons reach [shoulder to knuckles] can provide an initial stack/reach number to pick the right frame using an initial torso vs. arm angle of 90 degrees to avoid big trouble then personalizing it from there. Listen to your back, neck and your wrists - setup problems seem to talk there first. I have an old Motobecane I bought as a young buck that had too much reach for me... if only I had known back then what we know today.
What could be causing side foot pain? I had a fit done and now I am getting side foot pain. We adjusted saddle, cleats, and added +4mm pedels to help get my knees to line up correctly. Could it be that I need wedges to balance that out and take the pressure off the side of my foot?
A Surf Yes, it could be that you need a varus wedge to, as I say "bring the insole of the shoe up to meet the medial side of your foot". I would also wonder more in depth what all the effects of the +4mm pedals are -- knee tracking is one of those areas that is unfortunately taught by some schools in too simplistic a way by using a laser line cast on the front of the knee and visually seeing how things are lining up. The amount of motion that's missed when it's done like this is really profound especially considering we have to see what's going on at the ankle and the hip at the same time - and in a different plane of movement.
The wedges are a pretty cheap and fairly safe (most people don't have negative side effects to starting with just two wedges - it'll either help a little or there will be no effect either way in my experience) so that might not be a bad place to start
A Surf I had the same issue. The outside of my feet would be sore after a ride. I recently tried angling my cleats a little so the my toes point out a little while riding and it seems to be helping. Thoughts?
At or ahead of the pedal axle is fine, but where I disagree is you saying it's okay for the knee to be behind the pedal axle. That to me is a no no.
GNX157 okay. Why? (not trolling, genuinely curious of your reasoning)
I set up my bike with my knees about 2cm behind the pedal and it was f****** my knees but now I have KOPs-ed it and it feels just great. It is only a rule of thumb but it is okay but I think that further forward is safer. If you pedal with your knees behind the pedal, like people do when they are riding shopper bikes, then it is going to stress out your knees. I have a time trial emulating forward offset seat post so I can go even further forward, and I will try it.
John where is your studio at? I think I need a better fit.
Thank you....I am in western Colorado -- in Grand Junction. I appreciate all the people willing to make the trip out to see me -- I've had people drive, fly, and take the train from all over the country which has been a lot of fun.
I've also had people bring me out to their area and set up about 8-10+ bike fits with riders in the area which makes it feasible from a cost standpoint for groups
Thanks John, I really enjoy the videos and have learned a lot.
I'm dealing with serious pain behind my knee, it's impaired my walking. I'm not riding at the moment to try and heal. It's very frustrating.
Never had a problem in the area, but I'm new to riding and think the bike shop sold me the wrong size frame. I don't really know though.
Do you do a fit without a customers bike to help asses what geometry should be targeted for the next purchase?
I'm wondering if I flew out there you could help me figure out what to do. Maybe since I'm under a year of riding I should try to get more of a "feel" for riding and then see you?
Matt Potter I absolutely do help people with determining the optimal geometry for the next bike purchase - that's something that many of my clients take advantage of when they come to see me. I think it makes sense to have you get more experience under your belt as a cyclist before jumping right to flying out to see me and naturally you'll also start to get more information on the problem. I'd encourage you to do some research in your area and find a really skilled PT that deals with athletes. They don't need to be a bike fit specialist or anything, but they will still likely be able to help you troubleshoot through some things to develop a game plan for this problem.
Hi Matt I to Love John's videos. They have been a big help for me. I am not in any way trying to be a bike fit know it all. I many years ago dealt with a lot of pain in that area. What I found for me was this I have a long body and stupid short legs. What was happening do to having the saddle in a low position when I would reach the top of the stroke my knee felt like it was being pinched from behind.What worked for me was to get a shorter crank arm which let me run me run the saddle in a higher position and eliminating the jamming at the top. Just something to look at.
Thanks
I'll keep that in mind! I appreciate the feedback thanks!!!
can anybody help me? When I am on drops and try to be in aero position my left knee touches my stomach and I feel that my left foot is always in "high heel " position, my right foot is relatively flat.
John, come on a working holiday to London please...
Would love to someday.....
Bike Fit Adviser call this an advance booking!
Then you need the think about cleat position.
The orientation to the ground is meaningless. Imagine a rider in the PERFECT position for him on a bike. Now....change the bike frame and fork geometry by rotating the rider, in his perfect position (seat height, seat angle, cleat position and hand position) ABOUT THE CRANK CENTER. Rotate him forward 10 DEGREES to put him in a more aerodynamic position. Have any kinematics changed. NONE AT ALL. All the forces he generates are THE SAME....but his knee is now way in front of the pedal center. His saddle to bar drop is much greater. The only real change when you do this is the CG shifts forward, and more weight will then rest on the hands. But pedaling kinematics and efficiency will not change one bit, because you changed NOTHING. What this all means is that fore aft seat placement really does not matter. Get the seat height correct. Get the seat ANGLE correct. Have the right sized bike. Then adjust bar height, stem length, etc for proper hand/arm support and overall balance.
What state do you live in?
last myth means to help with aerodinamics not with aesthetics ....
How would it help aerodynamics? It won't reduce the frontal area and won't change the coefficient of aerodynamics of the legs.
@@martinturgeon1122 and yet in my spinning class where the stationary bike is not moving, the instructor is always saying "tuck your knees in"
You see what can happen when these myths circulate
As for aerodynamics, that is really for the Tour de France type people, maybe you dream of being one of those
i was expecting explanation second myths 'drop the heels". disappointed to watch this video, as u are not illustrate it and elaborate on it.
Not good to have the balls/pads of your feet touching the ground. It is bad knee extension.
"Gotta get a professional bike fit" is a huge myth in many cases. Nothing against bike fitters, but it's not really that involved in most cases: hands, ass, and feet. That's it. No more, no less. Set your cleats, move your ass and saddle around and finally your bar, and much of that will be determined by just how challenged you want to be on your bike: racer or comfort rider or somewhere in between. And as pointed out here, UA-cam is just full of bike fit myth plagiarism, but, at the same time, a good place to get ideas from.
+joe bolan agreed. I would never tell anyone they HAD to have a bike fit. The elements of what goes into fitting your bike are relatively simple....until they're not. And when things begin to get complex, it can get messy really quick. So while I agree with you that a bike fit isn't a requirement, a knowledgeable practitioner can save a struggling cyclist a lot of time and discomfort.
last myth means to help with aerodinamics not with aesthetics ....
and yet in my spinning class where the stationary bike is not moving, the instructor is always saying "tuck your knees in"
You see what can happen when these myths circulate
As for aerodynamics, that is really for the Tour de France type people, maybe you dream of being one of those