I believe the rate at which ice melts is dependent upon the type of beer stored in the cooler. The worse the beer the less the cooler is opened, hence the ice will last longer.
This is why the “Passive House” approach PHIUS , design and build with extra insulation that is climate specific. The static nature of insulation, will pay dividends for years to come. Good show Matt.
I think the real question is the tradeoff between wall insulation and e.g windows. If 90% of your heat flow is going through your windows already, you're better off spending more money on upgrading the windows than you are slowing down that 10% a bit more. That requires some modeling.
Windows are more expensive than insulation. On a new house, it’s a small change, but for an upgrade, adding insulation is more cost effective. But it’s complicated, as a better insulated house needs a smaller hvac system, and that would need a smaller solar system. The value a typical buyer would put on a more energy efficient house will vary, so unless you can keep the house for a long time, the payback may not show up. But, this is a sign that minimum code needs to be changed. Why do we keep building crappy houses?
In computer science, this is called Amdahl's Law. (A friend of mine calls it "Amdahl's Basic Arithmetic".) Not much return on improving part A of the system, if most of the problem is coming from part B.
@@johnhaller5851There will still be a breakeven point where saving e.g. 1000 dollars on additional insulation in order to upgrade one or two windows will be a win. You'd have to do some careful modeling to make those kinds of tradeoffs (e.g. figure out which window would benefit the most from a bump up), but imagine you're already at R50 walls or something extreme. It would be madness to add more foam to that unless the windows are already "maxed out". Then there's also choices like 24oc vs 16oc, adding some overhangs to shade the sun or maybe aerobarrier, or better roofing and so on that you could all spend money/time on instead of adding more insulation. All of this would be hard to just decide on with rules of thumb because it'll depend on the architecture, location etc. so the ideal is to have computer modeling for the actual house where you can sort of try different things and see how it changes the total energy use vs price.
As someone who owns a 1951 cape, I dense packed my upstairs celing after i furred it down with gussets and 2x4s to 18 inches deep. We have an r70 ceiling throughout, with double stud walls that are 1 foot thick and dense packed with cellulose. I have air sealed mostly everything, new double pane windows, rockwool in all of my main level walls, and xps foam on my basement walls. My basement floor has insulated r4 panels on it. I live in connecticut and have a 42k btu furnace for all three levels of my house. My furnace ran for just over 40 hours all winter. Air sealing and insulating to a higher amount are always worth it.
How long will it take you to recoup the insulation cost in saved energy. Probably the rest of your life. You sound like the type of guy who would trade in $1000 Honda civic for a $60,000 electric car, so you can save the money on gas.
But at what cost? Closed cell foam is expensive and not a 1:1 to bat insulation. Reduction in heat loss from 3" to 5" is 3%, but would cost you almost double in cost. So, in my area you're probably talking a 15k-25k premium just for the added 2". With a total cost of insulation being anywhere between 15k-45k for a 2-3k SF/house walls and cathedral attic, JUST IN INSULATION! Most people cannot justify that. Most people aren't building multi-million dollar custom homes. Don't create solutions that address the 1% of the population. We become better stewards of efficiency if you can get 50% of builders to build "pretty-good-homes", vs getting the 1% to get to passive house standards.
@@evictioncarpentry2628 You make quick deductions and bad comparisons, the type of bs used by used car salesmen. "Probably" the rest of his life!! You are a specialist in the matter? He will recoup his investment in 20 years and after that he will make money, ask about Warren Buffet about long term investment. On top of that he and his family will live in comfort, there is no price on that. You can't compare that with cars, they are not an investment but a liability. If he wants to sell his house in five years he will recuperate his whole investment because intelligent people will see it's worth.
@@hu5tle- Good insulation rules are applicable to smaller houses. A well insulated small house will cost more than one that has sieves for walls, fibreglass and rockwool don't cost as much as the new fancy stuff. The higher financing cost will be ofset by the reduced utility bill every month, they will be more comfortable during their stay in the house, it will have a better resale value and when the mortgage will be paid the savings will continue for the life of the house.
@Eviction Carpentry let's see...I used the income eligible insulation services from my utility provider for the upstairs insulation and insulating my garage ceiling. Due to the massive amount, I paid 1,000 out of pocket. I paid 1200 for the rockwool on my main level, 300 for the basement ceiling r23(clearance), less than 500 for the xps on my basement walls and rim joists, I was able to purchase a much smaller mechanicals and saved money there, 2,000 for my new double pane windows, and I have a quiet and efficient house. My utility rate in CT is very, very high. I save well over 100 dollars a month compared to what my bills were prior to me doing this work. So, basically 5k out of my pocket for all of these upgrades and energy efficiency. If we divide 5,000 by 100(average savings monthly) we will have made our money back from this in a hair over 4 years. If you ask me, that's just a smart investment, means comfort for my family, safer northern winters for frozen pipes, and a solid return on investment. So, before you say something stupid like, "You sound like the kind of guy to trade in a car for a 60k electric vehicle" know that I drive a 2003 tahoe with a 5.3. Don't be the kind of guy who can't do simple mathematics and see the roi for things.
I built my house in 1985, in Montreal. I'm not a tradesman but a businessman in the field of work safety equipment. I did a lot of research and went with the new (then) research in energy management. My roof is R40, walls R30 with staggered 2 by 6 outside walls, full basement R 20 insulated with outside and inside extruded foam including the floor.. I have been heating and cooling my 1200 square feet house with a 2 ton heat pump and when the temp drops to zero and below my central heating of 9kw is plenty enough to keep us toasty. My utility bill for a family of five was on average 1800$ a year for the past 30 years. I have to say that in Québec we have the lowest electricity rates in North America.
I've lived this topic. ALWAYS insulate as well as you can afford. My wife and I bought an acre of land with a train wreck house built back in the 1930's, originally as a church. After looking it over and realizing how good the basic bones were (balloon framed, 4x6 rim joists, we stripped it back to the studs and found out it was rock solid. There was no way the original plan for demo was going to happen. Rough sawn 2x lumber in the entire house (a REAL 2x4!!..) So the house was essentially free, and you ain't gonna find lumber like that anywhere anymore.......all corners were braced with 2x4 lumber wit cripple fills, so we used R-Max 3.2 poly-iso for sheathing, put R-19 in the walls, furred the attic with 2x4's and dense packed the rafter runs....R-60 blown in for the horizontal attic space. After all of the attention to detail, sealing it up TIGHT, installing a 2 ton water source heat pump with 2500 sq.ft. total living area....this old/new house is by far THE most energy efficient in my area!! Duke Energy includes audits of 2500 homes in my area (they have replaced the power meter 3 TIMES sure we're cheating!!...lol...) with the monthly power bill. Million dollar houses all around us. All electric, my energy bill is never over $125/month. And do note....the water source heat pump is fed by ground water, so no huge trenches or bored heat exchangers. Install the heat pump, plumb in the water lines. It seems I've lived in poorly insulated homes all of my life....I had NO idea spending a few hundred extra bucks could do in energy savings. All total above code cost was around $400.00.....we earned that back the second year. It's a complete no brainer......insulate, insulate, then insulate some more!!
I have built my house from scratch like yours and had the same results. One thing I will say is the comfort you have there, you will see a difference if you spend a few days in another house, you probably forgot how it was before.
That was the smart thing to do then. How expensive would it be to get that much insulation today? Also, is the R-60 from back then, the same as it is now?
@@OneWildTurkey R-60 is R-60. Yes there is settling so the value may reduce but not that much and certainly not more than R10 worst case unless it's getting wet.
@@imzjustplayin I was thinking of whether they might have changed how they measure it. So many things are evaluated differently to compensate for new marketing.
Dude. There’s a reason that there are different recommendations in different zones. You live in Texas where I am, spend on an R60 insulation? Or be able to afford the house in the first place. Did you watch the whole video?
Matt, you have to bring up the ROI using just the cost of HVAC. Comparing the price delta of using better insulation to the up front cost is likely the MOST compelling argument. Even though my renovation budget was blown by pandemic lumber costs I still opted to also go over on insulation in the attic (making it conditioned). After increasing my square footage and adding a second HVAC to the house, my monthly energy bills stayed the same. Based on the costs of the open cell foam, it will be paid back in another 6 months or so. I wanted closed cell but it was more expensive and not any significantly better ROI than the open cell. Great video, once again.
Our 1930 bungalow had zero insulation. Ripping out walls, adding Rockwool has changed both the comfort level and noise level inn with our beautiful Wisconsin stone home. Best investment if you plan on being in your home more than 3 years. I am addicted to your videos - concise and explained to my novice level of knowledge but with enough technical advice to help us learn and understand. Please keep up the great work.
I know you touched on it in the beginning but if you have air blowing around the insulation the R value goes out the window. When I managed the exterior renovation of our 15 building condo community in NJ 15 years ago we removed all the foam board sheathing and installed ZIP system. While the walls were open and all the batt insulation was visible people would ask me what were all the dark areas on the fiberglass batts? MOLD? I said no. It's dirt. There was a trail from the entry point and exit point of air leakage into the building - typically outlets. The fiberglass was basically just a filter.
It's funny about the amount of heating and cooling to keep comfortable. I started to use less heating and cooling because of cost going from $80.00 every 2 months months to $496.00 every 2 months. House use to be 19 degrees in winter, now 13.5 degrees in winter, due to cost only
When I super-insulated my home I went from R12 to R22 in the walls and R40 to R200 in the attic. My gas bill went from $160m to $78 per month. I can cool the house with a 12,000 BTU window A/C. And in the winter (when we had a blackout at -42') the house lost about 1 degree per hour.
I grew up in a “superinsulated” house my dad built in the late 70’s. It has 18” of blown in insulation in the walls with a separated offset studs inner wall, and nearly 3’ of blown in insulation in the attic. He spent about $50 for electric resistance heating the whole winter. This is in Northern Utah. If it were standard practice to build every house superinsulated we would probably be using less energy than even minus what the renewables generate, as a country.
The thing he didn’t mention is that he paid $20 for the “code” cooler but $400 for the other one. That is a cost difference to discuss as well which actually translates pretty accurately to the home.
@@james.telfer that’s a useless question because it ignores the actual dollar difference you are paying and for how long. A large percentage of the time, paying less up front is actually the objectively best choice.
@@reggiejenkins6458 Yep. People frequently fall for the fallacy that paying more now to pay less over time always works in your favor. This is commonly used to push the scammier solar installs. This is one of those cases where math can save us from our 'feelings': Net Present Value is the calculation these types of decisions should be run through to determine if it makes sense financially. It's not perfect, because you have to estimate certain things in the future (like the cost of energy in this example), but at least it's a framework and not a 'gut feeling'. The thing most people miss is what your money could be doing invested elsewhere, aka the discount rate. My solar calculations always look pretty good until I assume a 4% discount rate (which is reasonable for the stock market over 20 years) - with that, I'm better investing the money.
Agreed. Code requires a simple 2x6 framed wall. Going beyond requires more expensive and complicated framing, which adds to the overall cost that you must recoup through future reduced energy consumption. Not to mention more insulation as well. And you are either giving up square feet for thicker walls, or you are adding foundation to keep the square feet the same. That would be interesting to model, how much does adding that extra insulation increase in building costs.
While bulk insulation has its place, composite insulation is the future. Sandwiching bulk and reflective layers together is just one of many examples that can be tailored to suit the requirements, ie. fire resistance. And don't even get me started on phase change materials, that stuff is just so cool.
Yeah, the other thing I’ve learned from watching your videos is limit your ceiling penetrations going into the attic space and make sure any ones that you do have are well sealed before you blow in the insulation take the time to caulk the drywall to electrical boxes build a box to go over recessed cans make them airtight so you have no air flow and also do not put your heating and air system in the attic if possible mines going in my basement with a geothermal system
All that needs to be remembered is that doubling the insulation halves the heat movement. If you want to double the performance from R40 you have to go to R80. Trying to compare the difference between R2 and R4 and R36 and R38 gives the impression that R40 is sufficient rather than just showing how little R2 insulation is. The biggest benefit of high insulation means fewer temperature swings and better comfort when the temperature outside is extreme. Another reason I like having lots of insulation is because if the power goes out for some time, the house isn't going to freeze or boil. It's a good idea to build a house in a way that lots of low cost insulation can be used because achieving high levels of insulation with expensive insulation makes the cost benefit not worth it.
Comfort is an undervalued benefit. People spend a ton of money on high end finishes, but have an uncomfortable house. I would rather spend that same money (probably less) on insulation and sealing and be comfortable. The resilience aspect is not considered enough. When I moved in to my old house 16 years ago we endured a bunch of multi-day power outages (thanks Pepco!), with the worst being the DC Derecho of 2012, where we ended up being without power for 8 days. This is a 75 year old house on slab, so with no power it takes very little time for the inside temps to match the outside temps and humidity, although the walls are CMU so that gives a bit of extra buffer. It was so miserable We gave up after 3 days and drove to a family's place out of state. We broke down and bought a generator, big enough to power a room AC unit, refrigerator, and our well pump or water heater (don't need to power both at the same time). Since then we have used it exactly once, after hurricane Irene came through. It's a bit annoying to have paid that money and not needed it, but as a friend once told me, no one ever complains that their insurance didn't have to pay for their house burning down. Thanks for another great video Matt.
My house was built in '68. Next to no improvements done, the wall R value is strictly from the 2 X 4's. Attic insulation is only R-2 with no roof ventilation. In the process of getting an up to date roof, attic fan, radiant barrier and R60 Rockwool. Doing as much as I can myself because Matt inspired me so it's his fault lol.
Wear gloves, a Tyvek suit and a good mask while handling the stuff, Home Depot sells a special knife tu cut the insulation, it saves a lot of aggravation. Read what type of vapor barrier is required in your area, as important as your insulation... times two.
It would be great to see a follow up explaining the differences between the different types of insulation placement - inside of walls, outsides of walls, both, and why one way versus the other.
We built our house in 2005. We have R19 walls and R78 insulation in the attic (long story). Our cooling bills in the have never run over $150 in the summer, and we heat with two gas fireplaces totaling 45K BTU. Our house has 2100 sq. ft. and we live in Mississippi.
I did the same with a 4700 sq ft home in So CA. R78 in ceilings kept the house very warm in the winter and cooler in the summer. The heat generated by the Spanish tiles is really high so AC is more efficient in the summer and the heat generated inside is trapped better in the winter.
Did you guys really say you installed and R78 in the attic? The only way that would be efficient is if you sealed the attic and or made it in the conditioned space. If your attic is just full of blown in insulation, then you never will hit an R78. What kind and type of insulation was installed? If you have open soffit vents and venting then R78 really isn't a realistic value. To achieve an R49-R60 have a very small difference in ROI. R49 here in Colorado is code for most areas, but we run up to an R60 blown-in fire barrier cellulose insulation that keeps the critters out and the sound levels down. You could tell the first day the difference as the Manual J load calculations changed dramatically. My home runs a 4-ton variable speed 20 SEER HP/AC unit. After I refigured the load, I can or could have used a 3-ton for the same amount of space. I gained back 1-ton worth of cooling, which isn't necessarily a good thing. But since my system is so high-end, it determines what the thermal load is and cools accordingly with the zone sensors. I am an HVAC technician and business owner that does Home Performance upgrades for clients, so I know quite a bit about insulation. You would definitely have very little, if any, advantage of running an R78 over an R60. The returns wouldn't even be noticeable on a calculation or a thermometer. Unless you converted it to an air-conditioned space and it is all finished with radiant barrier and it is completely sealed off, there would be zero benefit to that. It is interesting you both stated an R78. What code book or system designer recommended this arbitrary number? Might as well do an R90, which I don't even think it exists. I have been to GreenFiber and Owing Corning training for the various products and they have never even talked about or given us product pamphlets or discussed such high R-values in the attic space. The Southern and roof lines that are facing side of the home free of shade would certainly benefit from an upgrade from an R19. Which begs the question, why didn't you upgrade that? We offer a solution that fills the wall cavity with liquid light expanding foam to fill in all the areas between the studs and there are various levels of cost and R-value. But people fail to remember that that evening the most expensive fancy windows with the highest-level UV blocking materials, you still have giant holes in your walls that are probably around an R-6\R-8 at the very most? The types of shades and blinds make a bigger difference and where your vents are placed to window wash the cooling or heating trying to pass through. They make lots of great window coverings that block significant loads and light, which means you live in a cave till the sun passes, but it will save you incredibly money compared to windows that cost 75 grand. A full roof of southern facing solar panels actually make the biggest difference in heat load being introduced, but you still need an R60 with a radiant barrier to be near the top 1%.
You definitely have provided one of the best explanation for extra Insulation that I have ever heard. I live on an island off the coast of Maine where winters are brutal. That extra insulation really makes a difference.
I've got a small 1950s rambler that I remodeled. I furred out the walls and ceiling from 3.5" to 5.5" (some placed are thicker for structural reasons), then had the whole thing sprayed with closed cell foam. Roughly an R-35. With the same ambient outdoor temperature and full sun, completely unconditioned, the attic went from 116F to 83F. Now my only issue is air sealing at the exterior doors - I haven't replaced them yet. If I had to do it over again, I wouldn't. I would have sold the house as-is and built a small (sub-2,000^ft) "bomber" spec house on some acreage far away.
Matt, I agree, I am a huge proponent of insulation. I have helped my family insulate several homes we have bought and renovated over the years. A huge benefit besides just the energy savings, sound dampening! Noisy streets / noisy neighbors / especially if you insulate the interior - noisy entertainment spaces or bedrooms are potentially much less of an issue. Its especially nice if you ever wanted to record something in a home, the sound quality is much better, especially coming from a content creator like yourself. Insulation benefits are not only measured in thermal performance, but even that saves lives in power outages in either extreme of cold or heat! I have been very pleased with the quality of the building science content you have made over the years. Would you be so kind as to explore aerogel insulation? Thanks
For those of us in older homes, a concern that pops up for me, is how to add more insulation while not exceeding the designed weight limit you can put on your ceiling. My house (built 1992, Maryland), 2x4 framing one story rambler, the ceiling framing is 24" OC with 1/2" drywall for the ceiling. The attic is not climate controlled, it's vented via the soffits and roof ridge. Honestly, it is not something I thought of until recently and didn't even think about "pillowing", sagging, or failure being a concern when wanting to add more insulation. When we bought the house in 2005, we added more insulation to the attic, blown in, on top of the existing blown in. We probably had around 16"-20" total, depending on the area. Much better than the less than 12" that it had to start with. Over the years, and many visits to the attic later from home improvements, this insulation has packed down as well as had a few unwanted mice take residence (which we have now resolved). Ideally, I would like to remove all the old blown insulation, seal any gaps and cracks, and put down something that is not as messing as blown that also is better at sound dampening (we have low flying aircraft nearby). I was looking at rock wool, but that is when the concern about weight came up in my research. Is there a way around this? I wondered if I could get away with putting 4" rock wool directly on the ceiling between the joists (which should be within the designed weight limit), then install spaced out furring strips on top across the joists, and install additional rock wool batting on top of that or even fiberglass batting. Would the furring strips help handle the load of the added insulation so as to not be distributed directly onto the drywall, causing sagging/failure?
Also, how would one add insulation to their exterior walls if there isn't any already within the wall cavity? My exterior framing is 2x4, 24" OC, vinyl siding, with the exterior board being a some kind of foam board instead of plywood (whatever was used and code back in 1992, R-Tech?). When it comes time to replace the vinyl siding, would it be possible (or any benefit) to remove the old foam board attached to the framing, install batting into the cavities via the exterior, then put new boarding up. Or should I just leave it as is and just get a decent wrap installed and use an insulated siding? Not sure it would add any sound dampening benefits.
@@virtualmirage7690 My idea would be to put plastic wrap over the joists, and sag it down in the bays to i sulation-depth, and staple it to the tops. That way the insulation just sits in a olatic hammock, it taking aome weight off the cieling?
This is a great simple video... completely agree that diminishing returns as you go too high on insulation. But if you get a deal on extra insulation, take it for a long term ROI. Agreed, windows should be discussed as a huge benefit when you go from super old single pane windows to double pain or triple pain windows with inert gas between the pains or even some window tint.
Great episode! So important to break down the facts. As you have heard “the only statistics I believe are the ones I make up “. Zooming in on the chart makes such a difference.
So much wisdom comes down to knowing how to read graphs, or knowing how people "lie" with statistics. I'm really enjoying Allison Bailey's book right now. And the timing of advice on coolers is perfect too! Thanks for this video!
Speaking of graph: the one at 5:00 is SUPER MISLEADING. The distance between the marks on the horizontal axis increases along the axis (11 13 15... 30 35 40). Of course the curve will look more flat than the one at 3:20, which has even spacing!
If you compare 2 coolers at least get the igloo 5 day which has some insulation, much like the average home. The Yeti cooler should be the same exterior size. Then put a twelve pack in each one and fill to the top with ice. The Igloo holds more ice due to the larger interior space, just like the less insulated home gets a larger HVAC system. If you pull out one beer per hour when does it get warm, just like opening the front door to come inside. Both coolers keep the beer cold until it’s gone but the Igloo took more ice to do it.
Houston builder here. I think the more important question is the rate of return. At what point are you spending more money to insulate than you are getting back in return. I wish my clients weren't price driven, but 90% of my client base is. They don't want to overspend if they aren't getting a return anymore.
If you’re talking rate of return, talk about lifestyle as well. With insulation high enough, you stay comfortable at 70 while it’s 100 outside, you stay warm at 68 while it’s -50. But your HVAC barely has to come on. It means if you lose power in a storm, you’ll be warm at least long enough to sleep, and a battery might keep things warm enough for a week.
Efficiency is a big sell for me for many of the reasons you mentioned. Even if it's not directly sold as 'cost savings', it certainly is long term. If a house is built to last 50-100 years, going above min code will certainly at least pay for itself over time. Another factor not mentioned is also sound control. The difference between R15 and R35 when it comes to acoustics is going to be drastic. It could mean hearing your neighbors loud truck every morning or not.
I have a 2x6 stud house (00s) I'm adding in as much as I can (25R) on the East, West, and South walls, because the electric bill was spiking over $400 a month in Tampa FL. My buddy down the road has an old house (80s)with 2x4 studs second floor, 2x6 first floor. He has so little insulation that you can actually see light through the walls in spots. His electric bill is $70 a month at a nice comfortable setting. Might have something to do with the 10Kw solar panels on the roof. Insulation requirements are relative to your electrical, mechanical, and structural situation.
Matt, I live in the North think -40°F in the winter, to 90°F, for very few days in the summer. Last roof rebuild, we went to R60 in the attic, great improvement.
Look at the R chart. Some of them are looking at a minimum temp of 25 degrees F. I’m looking at building with a minimum temp of the -40 degree F and we would like to hold a 100 degree temp gradient for a worst case scenario in winter.
Best money I ever spent was to have the concrete walls of my crawlspace sprayed with 3" of closed cell right up to the deck. The space was already semi-finished with a concrete floor and lighting when we bought it, but we were losing a lot to the cold walls and from the supply ducts that ran through it. Now it's "inside the envelope" and it's made a huge difference. One caution though, if you are considering this make sure you get a radon test as once you cut off the free air flow you'll be concentrating that gas in the space without proper radon mitigation.
I will have to take a look at that book. My first thought about increasingly airtight homes these days was CO2. You need some exchange of air with the outside world or your indoor air quality will suffer, in ways that can be hard to detect: headaches, fatigue, difficulty sleeping, reduced cognitive performance. In my own home, if everyone was home and the house fully buttoned up, our levels would shoot up to quadruple the ppm outside, sometimes more. Way more than what you need for negative health effects. From the Table of Contents of Dr. Bailes's book, it seems like he might talk about some of these issues. This would be a great topic for a video, btw. (hint hint)
Matt, curious what is the average cost to take a house from "code" to "Yeti Cooler"? For example, on your house, what was the all-in cost of adding 2" of foam on the walls and 4" on the roof? And I mean all-in cost. Materials and labor for installing the foam, all the unique hardware required for fastening it, added costs from having to detail around the windows etc, having to add a second layer of roof sheathing or using super long fasteners for the metal roofing, maybe even added costs of hiring subcontractors who charge more because they can deal with advanced building practices that traditional builders can't handle. I am all about energy efficiency, but I am skeptical of your philosophy on this, from specifically a cost-recovery standpoint. We have a renovated 2,000ft home in climate zone 4. Insulated basically to minimum code, even less in some areas. Andersen 400 series windows. Mini split heat. $30,000 solar power system which has us slightly better than net zero. So essentially we are heating and powering the house for $30k for 25 years. I think that if we had super-insulated to reduce our solar need by $15,000, it would have cost us an extra $100,000 or more on the build.
By my rough math, from the example he used based on the article, saving 2.8MM BTUs of heat transfer through the walls over a season (probably one per year) and heating/cooling with a heat pump with a underestimated COP of 2.5 and Texas electricity cost of $0.115/kWh, you're saving about $40/year. Spray foam costs many thousands of dollars for even smaller jobs; that would never pay back over the time you live in the home, and that's not even bringing in better NPV calcs or adding that most people change houses every 7-13 years or so.
I just built a 3500 square foot bungalow, with "extra" 2 inch zip R sheathing, it cost about 30,000 more than if i had just used conventional sheathing. This is in canada, however. Prices are much higher than Austin.
Also worth noting, the reduced wear and tear on your heating and cooling system as it does not have to work as hard to keep you comfortable. This saves you money in repair and eventual replacement costs by extending the life of your heat pump.
FYI. On the blog link there are additional charts from R11 & 16 to R40 & 45. On the R2 - R40 chart the reduction past R11/16 doesn't look like much but it is still quite a drop.. approx 70-77% depending on climate zone.
Hey Matt, I am retro fitting a 70-100 year old house in St. Louis, Missouri. I personally believe wall and ceiling insulation is important. But, I am concerned about wood radiation and air infiltration. I am using a common product form board with a foil face. It's about R-7. Over that I will use 5/8 drywall sheets. Using many of your little tricks I expect to drop my air changes per hour to a tiny fraction of the original ratio. So, my short point is this, insulation is dandy. Radiation and infiltration is the candy. Be well.
I would love to hear your take on lightweight cellular concrete particularly for under-slab insulation due to its fire and termite resistance, but also as a structural material for foundation and walls.
Well, if 100% more is good, then 200% more is better! That’s what I did on my home remodel on a 57 year old house. Went from R-19 code to R-57, even if that’s well beyond what required in the Bay Area. For an extra $2500 of insulation at the same time as the regular insulation, I’ve been able to drop my utility bills to about half of similar houses, saving $100-150 a month during the winter and $75-100 a month during the summer. I estimate my breakeven is around 18-24 months. Just a no-brainer.
Getting ready to start insulating this lemon we bought . been running the number and this video was right on time. favorite build channel ive found keep up the awesome work man.
The problem is the high price of insulation because the manufacturers are charging very high profit margins. Yes, we live in a capitaltistic society (and I don't have a problem with that because I've worked in 17 other countries and our system is better) but I looked at the cost of adding insulation to my old R13 house and it would take 11 YEARS to pay for it. Simply not worth it. If insulation was cheaper than more people would use more.
Hi Matt, I anticipate starting a house build next summer, and knowing how important insulation is, have you made a "what not to do" video?, it would be super beneficial as well to avoid any land mines . I figure out what I dont want, which makes it easier to determine what I do want. Good video. Be well.
1. Better to go with Rockwool over spray foam. Much easier to install and makes easier to do repairs. Also in case of a fire, Rockwool won't outgas toxic fumes. 2. I would stick with 2" exterior rigid foam installation, Any thicker and you need to put in a special order for thicker panels and it become more difficult to fasten multiple layers of foam insulation. Most Big Box sell 2" thick foam insulation. 3. Go with 2x6 with 24 on-center stud walls: less thermal bridging, & less overall material (slightly lower stud costs). 4. Avoid using Open truss floor joist, or if you do, I recommend adding OSB\Plywood as fire break & as well as constricting rodent & bug movement. 5. For Sheathing go with ZIP system: Much easier air sealing 6. Uponor PEX unless your on city water (Chloramines used to chlorinate water destroys PEX & copper) 7. In a good insulated home, most of the thermal losses will happen in the windows. Using fewer windows & smaller windows will help.
@@andreycham4797 Won't make much of a difference, unless you live in Canada or Sibera which has access to more insulating products. Not Michael E asked Matt to produce a video without disclosing his climate zone. Is that my fault? No.
R40 in my walls r70 on my attic floor all the way out to the soffit. (Raised heel trusses) conditioned crawlspace with r40 walls and r10 foam board over the concrete floor in the crawlspace. Cost me an extra 7k over just putting in code minimum. And yes it'll pay itself back in not only lower energy bills but the HVAC runs less so there's a longer life to the equipment. That's one thing most don't consider
I 💯 agree about the comfort level. Our house is not well insulated and not only temperature fluctuations from spot to spot is wide, the only time we don’t have air heating/cooling on is when the temperature is about 55-70 degrees (very limited time in Chicago).
I keep thinking of you this year because I’m often in this new build neighborhood in north DFW where they’re using Dryline TSX. At least all the brick anchors are done correctly so everyone will have two walls left when the wood sided walls rot and blow down.
Hi, Matt, great video! I hope you will do a follow-up video comparing insulation levels for a cold climate, perhaps zone 5 or 6. Also, could you talk about the proportions needed between interior cavity insulation and continuous exterior insulation? I’ve read that increasing the amount of cavity insulation without increasing the thickness of the exterior insulation can cause problems within the wall cavity because the added cavity insulation prevents heat from the interior from reaching the exterior sheathing and that surface can become colder, leading to moisture condensing on the sheathing.
Around the year 2000 I had an addition on a home we were purchasing. The contractor had a subcontractor do the insulation work. The next day they were going to hang the plaster board and I inspected the job and found deficiencies. They came back the next day and fixed the errors. The builder and I had a big discussion about venting the bathroom fan into the eaves in north eastern United States specifically western Pennsylvania. he assured me that he would fix any problem if one developed. I was certain venting the bathroom fan into the eaves was a huge mistake but it took about a year and icicles hanging down before he realized that he had to do something. He had consulted with other builders in the area who like him were supposed to be famous for their work. They concluded that there was too much insulation in the attic of this structure. Turns out when they moved the vent from in the age to through the roof, all the icicles went away. Strangely the rest of the structure that was 25 years old and I had re-insulated by another contractor had no icicle problems equaling of course no heat loss.
Matt you had the difference in energy usage between the code and extra insulation house. All you need to do is take the MMBTU saved and calc the cost of that energy for gas and/or electric. Compare that to the extra cost of the insulation.
We are building a new house in northern Minnesota and insulation here is critcal regardless of talking heat coming in or going out. More insulation reduces winter heat bills and lowers the need for summertime AC. It'a a no-brainer.
In my area R35 to 45 for exterior walls and R60 for the attic , that is recommended amount not code, for the best heat retention. All cracks and gaps have to be sealed prior to installing the insulation, we have a pre insulation inspection and a post insulation inspection , with all the government craziness about carbon reductions and the price of energy going up, it just makes sense to spend a little more now to save a lot in the long run ! Comfort is also a big factor, having a good guess of how much energy cost for each month of the year is a great stress reliever for fixed income people.
After improving your windows, insulation, radiant barrier (southern states), led lighting, and modernizing your hvac system, then evaluate if solar is worthwhile.
I currently live in a 2400 square foot house with 14" dense pack cellulose walls, R80 attic and triple pane windows. It was heated during the winter after the drywall with a 1500 watt heater. Our power went out for 31 hours after a snow storm. At minus 5C the inside temperature went down 2.5 degrees C. Once the battery storage is installed thirty one hours will be a wonderful experience with no internet. If a well built house will be around for more than a hundred years consider what the total energy savings will be
@@jsnx9067 Recouping the cost is not a concern. The house will be around for more than a hundred years saving money and our planet for all those who live in it. The dense pack cellulose stores a fair amount of carbon. No airconditioning costs, extreme comfort, incredibly quiet. I guess I will not recover the cost of the attached greenhouse either but picking tomatoes in the dead of our northern winters is rewarding I have built houses that cost up to eight million. I wonder if one will recoup the extra cost on a fifty thousand dollar BBQ centre when they could of gone to McDonalds . You remind me of the first time I built a passive solar home. I talked to some one who was also building passive solar but did not insulate the concrete slab saying it would take ten years to get the money back. That was forty years ago. I guess they have been heating tera firma for the last thirty years at a great expense. An insulated slab is the heat sink for a passive solar home. Sometimes us wealthy quality builders have other concerns. Little Apple Homes, building quality energy efficient homes for more the forty years and not caring what others think or say. If I listened to others I would be building the same crap as everybody else.
I’m building on a mobile home frame 2x6 walls all closed cell . my ceiling is 2x10 all closed cell . I’m not sure on these r values and I don’t care cuz dang heating n cooling costs next to nothing . I live in Tennessee and friends were why so tight ? And now they understand. I believe more is better. And like Matt I got a towel warmer I LOVE it along with my floor heat . Thanks for the videos.
There is what is called diminishing return with insulation .... so yes, getting goofy with insulation is TOO MUCH. I built a 2,500 sq.ft. house in Minnesota that costs $15/mo to heat in the winter and uses a 1.5 ton central AC unit to keep it cool in the summer. Controlling air flow is a bigger consideration, and with that you need to have air exchanges so the house doesn't become polluted. First inch of insulation will reduce heat loss by 50%, to obtain a 50% reduction in the remaining 50% of heat loss you will need to add double the insulation, and it continues like that, so like said diminishing return. And if that isn't enough, I remodeled a house in Tucson that does just as well.
The thing I like best, about added insulation is, once it's in, there is no maintenance. The house I live in now, has no insulation, in the masonry walls. Built in 1945. My new house will be over insulated! A house, that the furnace doesn't run all night, would be heaven.
Excellent review -- QUESTION -- Matt, on you personal home build why did you not use the "flash and batt" method and spray some closed cell foam in the interior walls? I am assuming it is due to sponsorship with Rockwool (which we are all totally cool with). If you also were sponsored by a closed cell company would you have used it too? In that perfect world where money was not a consideration would you use closed cell and rockwool? Can't figure this out because in many videos you seem to like closed cell foam but on your personal home you don't seem to like it.
I'm a slow flipper and get all my fiberglass insulation as salvage for free here in Phoenix. I buy 1940's fixers which generally have no insulation. I furr out the walls on the interior with 2x2. First furring on the diagonal to add shear strength. Then another layer of vertical 2x2's for the drywall. So 8" wall. Makes running electric super easy too and much safer imo when wires are 4" in from outside and inside wall. Driving even a 3" screw is unlikely to hit a wire. The furring scheme also almost eliminates wood thermal bridging. I trade time for material cost. Collecting the salvaged insulation takes time and gas. Getting bats into the furring configuration takes a lot of time. Seems to be more comfortable but that's subjective.
It’s all about the stats/metrics and how they are displayed - what matters is scale - the more compressed the scale upon which the analysis is pegged, the smaller the scale of the analysis, the larger on the scale the variants are portrayed
To that point : the graph at 5:00 is SUPER MISLEADING. The distance between the marks on the horizontal axis increases along the axis (11 13 15... 30 35 40). Of course the curve will look more flat than the one at 3:20, which has even spacing.
There are much more important things than just insulation. Air barrier, air gaps, radiant barriers, thermal mass, and then is the person considering solar or backup power? That can be a big deal with getting smaller equipment to be able to be more resilient and get off grid. Then, is there money for an ERV? It could take like 10 years to make the money back off of the initial purchase of an ERV of $2k, but it can farther reduce peak power loads. It all comes down to creating the results that make sense for the homeowner.
Well Done ! Great method of getting great results of sealing and insulation ! Question on the aluminum foil covered house wrap- How is your cell phone reception inside the house?
*Your insulation is as only good as your weakest link.* Example: You can build a double wall system that is comprised of two 2x6 24OC walls with a 2 inch gap filled with dense cellulose creating a perfect thermal break and the exterior having rigid insulation and get a total Wall R value of 50. Sounds great until you install a window with on that wall. Windows average 3 to 5 R value. That window (depending on size) will dramatically impact the effectiveness of that wall. It's no different from having an amazing insulated system and leaving a door or window open to let the outside temps in.
Even the best passive house windows can’t match a standard R19 wall so it’s always the weak link, in Certified Passive House you see the windows placed mostly south for letting winter sun in & proper length overhang for summer sun & avoid east & west facing because they’re difficult to shade and in a passive house it will make the house overheat. Proper window placement is key for a house just don’t put too many because all the insulation in the world don’t mean much if the wall is 80% windows.
There is a youtuber named sprayjones or something that goes into research papers regarding this stuff and there really is a set of diminshing returns after 2.5 inches of closed spray foam. A shocking amount. Also he gives us a red pill of "R" ratings and how useless they are.
You didn't have the math words to describe the graphs but you did a good job anyway. To say it in a mathy way, the change in heat flow from R0 to R11 is an exponential decay, while the change from R11 to R40 is linear (and not really flat, it just looks flat on a graph next to a decaying exponential). And this linear change still provides plenty of value.
Not at all! The graph at 5:00 is SUPER MISLEADING. The distance between the marks on the horizontal axis increases along the axis (11 13 15... 30 35 40). Of course the curve will look more flat than the one at 3:20, which has even spacing!
@@audetnicolas The scaling doesn’t matter so much, just lets you visually see the change better. It is still a linear graph. You don’t change that even with different scaling. But if you disagree that the linear decrease in heat flow is not providing enough value, that’s your choice. For me, the comfort and decreased energy bills is big enough for me to justify it.
@@TheNativeTwo I don't disagree with insulating more than code. But justifying with that graph, and saying that it's linear makes no sense. Btw : having identical increments on the horizontal axis would "stretch" the right end of the line more towards the right. In the end the line would have exactly the same shape as the one on the first graph. This means that you still have diminishing returns to your investment in insulation.
@@audetnicolas All it does is change the "appearance" of the slope of the line. It doesn't change it from linear to non-linear and doesn't change the actual slope of the line. You can justify not insulating however you want, but the additional reduction makes sense for me. Bro, I don't think you even know what linear means. You are misunderstanding basic math. Saying something is linear is not a justification. A flat line is linear. That would bring you no value. Go reread what I wrote. I never said that it being linear was a justification for additional insulation, you are putting your words in my mouth. Strawman fallacy.
@@audetnicolas Let me give you some basic graph math so you can maybe understand a bit better. Let's say you have a graph of a decaying exponential that asymptotes at a particular point. The portion of the graph where the value is decreasing rapidly can be described as nonlinear, decaying exponential, whereas the portion of the graph that approaches and follows the asymptote can be approximated as linear. That's all I am saying. It is not a justification. It's a description. I was trying to help him describe it better. Scaling doesn't change any of the this.
Great practical information. Did you mention if the extra insulation may reduce sound filtration as well? That would contribute to the overall 'comfort' in my book. Thanks for sharing!
In my experience (living in the north), after at least getting a nominal amount of R value, stopping air infiltration does far more to save energy than excess R value.
My experience living in southern NY, is that there was a drop from the original insulation(1.5 in in walls) to R21 with a vapor barrier, and ceiling (3.5 inch) to R43 and it dropped our NG usage from over 1100 CCF to less than 700 CCF per winter. We also reduced the size of our furnace for winter and our cooling capacity decreased from 4 ton to 1.5 ton for the summers. And this cost saving lasted 19 years until we sold the house. So the payback time for us was 4 years for the furnace and 2 years for the insulation. I agree with stopping the air flow though the walls, windows, and doors helps a lot with the house comfort.
A basic math fact that is underappreciated is that power law functions are scale free. The power law function continues to exist at the same power (curve shape) regardless of the scale. In this case the scale is the R value or MBTU's in the house. Every investment decision requires a unique analysis. In the case of insulation you should be looking at a 30 year NPV. This means you will use a lot more insulation than you think.
You forgot to add 45L incentives , you can receive tax deductions and credits for greener homes, this helps offset the higher cost while also receiving the comfort benefits
Matt, I love tis subject. I framed my house in 2x6x24 with R23 Rockwool insulation and an additional 1 inch of Polyiso foam on the exterior. Roof is R46 (sealed attic) with a vented metal over roof. The energy bills are stunningly lower than the ones we had in our 1970s house before, BUT: We have huge southeast facing window walls that deminish the overall insulation value in those rooms. I would have liked to see a reference to Steve's video from a few weeks ago where he talked about "effective" R-Value. In our situation, I believe that adding more insulation would likely lead to a cost increase with little to no benefit. I do agree, though, on the code being way to little insulation.
Consider using a honeycomg type insulating window shade that you close as soon as the sun sets. I was surprised of the results. Hunter Douglas makes a good quality model.
@@wetrock2766 Yes, we are planning on adding motorized blinds to the upstairs windows and a patio cover or retractable awning to the downstairs. The point was merely to state that there is a limit to the effectiveness of adding insulation based on the overall wall concept and the number and size of openings not impacted by the insulation increase. If you will, think about it as insulating the walls but leaving the doors and windows open. But thanks for the response.
In Texas, if we can start with actually getting builders to sheath houses with OSB or plywood would be a good start… I tend to agree with adding more insulation because it’s static in nature.
Vancouver BC is getting into R 60 on new houses. the average temp is like 70 (20C) degrees. barely hitting freezing for 3 weeks in the winter, maybe 2 weeks of 112(35), yet that building code is almost double what you should need.
The graph at 5:00 is SUPER MISLEADING. The distance between the marks on the horizontal axis increases along the axis (11 13 15... 30 35 40). Of course the curve will look more flat than the one at 3:20, which has even spacing! Matt, you're full of bull...
The numbers are still valid though and that's what he focussed on. The actual energy transmission losses were still half as much by the end of the graph.
@@robertszynal4745 Yeah, but no. The numbers are valid but his point is that if you start the axis from the minimum requirement as per the code, then the line is straighter, which he equates to better return on the investment. That just not a valid argument. This being said, I am not saying that you should not insulate beyond the cofe requirements, just that his argument is fallacious.
I think the point really that most ppl want to see how much all the extra insulation is vs the return on investment. As a GC if I have a client that wants a high performance house I steer away from stick frame and go to ICF. You can achieve a way tighter house for less cost then all the extras it takes to get a stick frame house there
Matt, awesome video! Super spot-on on everything! Only I would please inform you viewers of the damage that could happen with spray foam insulation on their coils! What is released by those products can cause a certain type of of corrosion in the coils that can lead to premature detriment! I’m sure your fully aware, but it has to be mentioned. Only say this because we get potential customers who want a new “elite” system and latter want to spray foam… that’s like buying a Lamborghini and leaving by the beach…
I enjoy the videos. It’s disappointing from time to time how the science and math is lost for feelings or personal opinions. Some of the comments have touched on it. You have the ability to put dollars to the cost of insulation. It’s definitely modeled and figured out during the design, but not typically passed to the owners. It could be shown what a 2000ft2 house with a square shape with equal walls would cost with changing amounts of insulation to heating costs. Keep the science and math at the forefront and you’ll gain some interested home owners, instead of losing them to what you think or prefer.
Matt, I’ve been watching the channel for many years now…I’m a homeowner educating myself for a future home build and there’s something that sticks out like a sore thumb that is missing from what you preach! You always stress high performance but you rarely if ever build smaller homes. I know you build homes for upscale clientele, but it’s hard to swallow what you tell us when you miss what’s most likely the biggest factor in efficiency. I do commend you in keeping your own home under 3000 sq. Ft. So I know you understand what I’m expressing here!
so your beef is he doesn't build houses at a lower price point? i think his employees whose paycheck depend upon the client's budgets sized where they are would disagree with you. would you critique the tax advice of an accountant whose clients all make 2.5 milllion a year and say yea you don't represent any middle class people so your knowledge and advice is invalid or less than? you're a proposing an extremely goofy paradigm. professionals don't get to choose their clients, for the most part.
@@stevecrawford6958 It was a non-carnivorous comment I assure you and nothing was said to do with price point. My comment was meant to be a challenge to Matt in order to address a glaring parameter to building a high performance home that seems to go unrecognized in many circles of the trade. Not sure I follow your accountant analogy, but my accountant would advise me to build the home I need and further invest the savings. As far as professionals not picking their clients that’s just plain silly sir…once you’ve made it and are the best in your field or area you are more than able to pick your clients as time is your only limiting factor.
Obviously he's going to prioritize videos for his own projects. Since most of his customers are likely spending well over $1 million, you're never going to see anything so small. However, he did a couple videos on smaller homes and very, very tiny homes that he didn't build.
Matt, selling customers on energy efficiency is worth while. Just don't sell that with an expectation of lower energy bills. And that is for the exact reason you mentioned...there are always more gagets, lights, doodads, etc. I always look at it as making it eaiser to add those additional creature comforts without added energy use overall (towel warmers, heated floors, home automation, etc)
Good info, you think the “extra” insulation is expensive just wait and see what the cost of energy to heat and cool is 10 years from now. Adding insulation during the construction phase is so much easier than trying to retrofit down the road.
no one retrofits. energy will barely budge int he next 10 years. everyone already pats nore in admin fees than energy costs. the only expensive energy is green energy and people are waking up to that scam thankfully.
We're going r47.5 on our walls and r65 on the roof in PA. Full high performance renovation of a 1700s hotel someone converted into apartments in the 70s, tearing that all out to turn it into a bed and breakfast.
If you are on fixed income and can not afford higher energy cost, you can certainly not afford the cost of more insulation which can be VERY expensive. Of course that expensive insulation helps increase the profits of builders like you.
Yeah, diminishing returns is very real no matter how much you blow up the axes of your graph to make it look like R38 walls in Austin is not a dumb idea and colossal waste of money. Expanding graph axes is a very common Advertising 101 trick to make it look like a huge gain can be had by buying this product. It all comes down to how much do you save in energy costs vs. how much did it cost. Your little Yeti demonstration only works if you mean to save on ice bags. How about a calculation from your build Matt.? How long will it take to recoup the expense of R38 walls in Austin?
He's not claiming a huge gain, he stated the numbers and even gave a disclaimer that the increase should not be "sold" as an HVAC cost improvement but rather a comfort improvement. If you don't think it's worth it then don't do it, however energy is only getting more expensive so why not make a one-time investment for the next 100+ years of occupant comfort?
@@kentaltobelli1840 energy will have to go 10X higher to even remotely ever recoup the extra material and labor cost. just give it up, there is no financial argument for more insulation. none.
Insulating is important but I personally think creating air gaps and reflecting heat can be just as important. Surprised you don’t go over those just as important aspects
Little things can sure add up. I remember seeing a design for a pergola type slatted porch. They were angled so that in the summer they blocked sun from getting to the windows, but in the winter, when the sun is lower, the sun comes in. (They also had some overlap and a rain channel so as long as it wasn't too windy, sprinkles didn't get people wet underneath.) Throw some trees in front to shelter you from the sun a bit more in the summer and lose their leaves in the winter...
That's more important only in hot climates. Better insulation benefits everyone. It's like spending more once rather than less and paying a subscription FOREVER
Left out of this discussion is the overall balance of your enrgy approach.why have triple pane windows with only r 20nwalls? Or have r 80nroofs with even triple pane windows? And as mentioned tight should be priority above code before your start putting on exterior insulation, 24 in oc studs; get triple pane upvc windows from europe ThEN go for mor insulation .
It's funny how boring this sounds vs how interested I am.
Nerd alert!
I wish more builders were nerds
Ha… that sums it up for me too
Rugged road cooler, $350. Styrofoam cooler, $5.49…. Not everyone can afford the upfront $350
@@jesinbeverly I've learned over time that you usually get what you pay for. Buy once, cry once!
I believe the rate at which ice melts is dependent upon the type of beer stored in the cooler. The worse the beer the less the cooler is opened, hence the ice will last longer.
A real man of genius! ❤😂
Hahahahahaha, that is the wisest explanation of cooler ice I have ever heard.
So with Bud Lite it will never melt?😂
This is why the “Passive House” approach PHIUS , design and build with extra insulation that is climate specific. The static nature of insulation, will pay dividends for years to come. Good show Matt.
I can't argue your logic, but if you buy crappy beer, why even get ice for it?
I think the real question is the tradeoff between wall insulation and e.g windows. If 90% of your heat flow is going through your windows already, you're better off spending more money on upgrading the windows than you are slowing down that 10% a bit more. That requires some modeling.
Can not wait when vacuum glass hits US market
@@andreycham4797 is that no air instead of argon
Windows are more expensive than insulation. On a new house, it’s a small change, but for an upgrade, adding insulation is more cost effective. But it’s complicated, as a better insulated house needs a smaller hvac system, and that would need a smaller solar system. The value a typical buyer would put on a more energy efficient house will vary, so unless you can keep the house for a long time, the payback may not show up.
But, this is a sign that minimum code needs to be changed. Why do we keep building crappy houses?
In computer science, this is called Amdahl's Law. (A friend of mine calls it "Amdahl's Basic Arithmetic".) Not much return on improving part A of the system, if most of the problem is coming from part B.
@@johnhaller5851There will still be a breakeven point where saving e.g. 1000 dollars on additional insulation in order to upgrade one or two windows will be a win. You'd have to do some careful modeling to make those kinds of tradeoffs (e.g. figure out which window would benefit the most from a bump up), but imagine you're already at R50 walls or something extreme. It would be madness to add more foam to that unless the windows are already "maxed out". Then there's also choices like 24oc vs 16oc, adding some overhangs to shade the sun or maybe aerobarrier, or better roofing and so on that you could all spend money/time on instead of adding more insulation. All of this would be hard to just decide on with rules of thumb because it'll depend on the architecture, location etc. so the ideal is to have computer modeling for the actual house where you can sort of try different things and see how it changes the total energy use vs price.
As someone who owns a 1951 cape, I dense packed my upstairs celing after i furred it down with gussets and 2x4s to 18 inches deep. We have an r70 ceiling throughout, with double stud walls that are 1 foot thick and dense packed with cellulose. I have air sealed mostly everything, new double pane windows, rockwool in all of my main level walls, and xps foam on my basement walls. My basement floor has insulated r4 panels on it.
I live in connecticut and have a 42k btu furnace for all three levels of my house. My furnace ran for just over 40 hours all winter.
Air sealing and insulating to a higher amount are always worth it.
How long will it take you to recoup the insulation cost in saved energy. Probably the rest of your life.
You sound like the type of guy who would trade in $1000 Honda civic for a $60,000 electric car, so you can save the money on gas.
But at what cost? Closed cell foam is expensive and not a 1:1 to bat insulation. Reduction in heat loss from 3" to 5" is 3%, but would cost you almost double in cost. So, in my area you're probably talking a 15k-25k premium just for the added 2". With a total cost of insulation being anywhere between 15k-45k for a 2-3k SF/house walls and cathedral attic, JUST IN INSULATION! Most people cannot justify that. Most people aren't building multi-million dollar custom homes.
Don't create solutions that address the 1% of the population.
We become better stewards of efficiency if you can get 50% of builders to build "pretty-good-homes", vs getting the 1% to get to passive house standards.
@@evictioncarpentry2628 You make quick deductions and bad comparisons, the type of bs used by used car salesmen. "Probably" the rest of his life!! You are a specialist in the matter? He will recoup his investment in 20 years and after that he will make money, ask about Warren Buffet about long term investment. On top of that he and his family will live in comfort, there is no price on that. You can't compare that with cars, they are not an investment but a liability. If he wants to sell his house in five years he will recuperate his whole investment because intelligent people will see it's worth.
@@hu5tle- Good insulation rules are applicable to smaller houses. A well insulated small house will cost more than one that has sieves for walls, fibreglass and rockwool don't cost as much as the new fancy stuff. The higher financing cost will be ofset by the reduced utility bill every month, they will be more comfortable during their stay in the house, it will have a better resale value and when the mortgage will be paid the savings will continue for the life of the house.
@Eviction Carpentry let's see...I used the income eligible insulation services from my utility provider for the upstairs insulation and insulating my garage ceiling. Due to the massive amount, I paid 1,000 out of pocket.
I paid 1200 for the rockwool on my main level, 300 for the basement ceiling r23(clearance), less than 500 for the xps on my basement walls and rim joists, I was able to purchase a much smaller mechanicals and saved money there, 2,000 for my new double pane windows, and I have a quiet and efficient house.
My utility rate in CT is very, very high. I save well over 100 dollars a month compared to what my bills were prior to me doing this work.
So, basically 5k out of my pocket for all of these upgrades and energy efficiency. If we divide 5,000 by 100(average savings monthly) we will have made our money back from this in a hair over 4 years.
If you ask me, that's just a smart investment, means comfort for my family, safer northern winters for frozen pipes, and a solid return on investment.
So, before you say something stupid like, "You sound like the kind of guy to trade in a car for a 60k electric vehicle" know that I drive a 2003 tahoe with a 5.3. Don't be the kind of guy who can't do simple mathematics and see the roi for things.
I built my house in 1985, in Montreal. I'm not a tradesman but a businessman in the field of work safety equipment. I did a lot of research and went with the new (then) research in energy management. My roof is R40, walls R30 with staggered 2 by 6 outside walls, full basement R 20 insulated with outside and inside extruded foam including the floor.. I have been heating and cooling my 1200 square feet house with a 2 ton heat pump and when the temp drops to zero and below my central heating of 9kw is plenty enough to keep us toasty. My utility bill for a family of five was on average 1800$ a year for the past 30 years. I have to say that in Québec we have the lowest electricity rates in North America.
A large part of the diminishing returns is related to thermal bridging from the wood framing, that's why adding exterior insulation is most effective
I've lived this topic. ALWAYS insulate as well as you can afford. My wife and I bought an acre of land with a train wreck house built back in the 1930's, originally as a church.
After looking it over and realizing how good the basic bones were (balloon framed, 4x6 rim joists, we stripped it back to the studs and found out it was rock solid. There was no way the original plan for demo was going to happen. Rough sawn 2x lumber in the entire house (a REAL 2x4!!..)
So the house was essentially free, and you ain't gonna find lumber like that anywhere anymore.......all corners were braced with 2x4 lumber wit cripple fills, so we used R-Max 3.2 poly-iso for sheathing, put R-19 in the walls, furred the attic with 2x4's and dense packed the rafter runs....R-60 blown in for the horizontal attic space.
After all of the attention to detail, sealing it up TIGHT, installing a 2 ton water source heat pump with 2500 sq.ft. total living area....this old/new house is by far THE most energy efficient in my area!! Duke Energy includes audits of 2500 homes in my area (they have replaced the power meter 3 TIMES sure we're cheating!!...lol...) with the monthly power bill. Million dollar houses all around us.
All electric, my energy bill is never over $125/month. And do note....the water source heat pump is fed by ground water, so no huge trenches or bored heat exchangers. Install the heat pump, plumb in the water lines.
It seems I've lived in poorly insulated homes all of my life....I had NO idea spending a few hundred extra bucks could do in energy savings. All total above code cost was around $400.00.....we earned that back the second year.
It's a complete no brainer......insulate, insulate, then insulate some more!!
I have built my house from scratch like yours and had the same results. One thing I will say is the comfort you have there, you will see a difference if you spend a few days in another house, you probably forgot how it was before.
That was the smart thing to do then. How expensive would it be to get that much insulation today? Also, is the R-60 from back then, the same as it is now?
@@OneWildTurkey R-60 is R-60. Yes there is settling so the value may reduce but not that much and certainly not more than R10 worst case unless it's getting wet.
@@imzjustplayin I was thinking of whether they might have changed how they measure it. So many things are evaluated differently to compensate for new marketing.
Dude. There’s a reason that there are different recommendations in different zones. You live in Texas where I am, spend on an R60 insulation? Or be able to afford the house in the first place. Did you watch the whole video?
Matt, you have to bring up the ROI using just the cost of HVAC. Comparing the price delta of using better insulation to the up front cost is likely the MOST compelling argument. Even though my renovation budget was blown by pandemic lumber costs I still opted to also go over on insulation in the attic (making it conditioned). After increasing my square footage and adding a second HVAC to the house, my monthly energy bills stayed the same. Based on the costs of the open cell foam, it will be paid back in another 6 months or so. I wanted closed cell but it was more expensive and not any significantly better ROI than the open cell.
Great video, once again.
Our 1930 bungalow had zero insulation. Ripping out walls, adding Rockwool has changed both the comfort level and noise level inn with our beautiful Wisconsin stone home. Best investment if you plan on being in your home more than 3 years. I am addicted to your videos - concise and explained to my novice level of knowledge but with enough technical advice to help us learn and understand. Please keep up the great work.
I know you touched on it in the beginning but if you have air blowing around the insulation the R value goes out the window.
When I managed the exterior renovation of our 15 building condo community in NJ 15 years ago we removed all the foam board sheathing and installed ZIP system. While the walls were open and all the batt insulation was visible people would ask me what were all the dark areas on the fiberglass batts? MOLD? I said no. It's dirt. There was a trail from the entry point and exit point of air leakage into the building - typically outlets. The fiberglass was basically just a filter.
In 1963 my father had a house built near KC Kansas payed for added insulation and did som air sealing, according to him the payoff was about 2 years.
It's funny about the amount of heating and cooling to keep comfortable. I started to use less heating and cooling because of cost going from $80.00 every 2 months months to $496.00 every 2 months. House use to be 19 degrees in winter, now 13.5 degrees in winter, due to cost only
When I super-insulated my home I went from R12 to R22 in the walls and R40 to R200 in the attic. My gas bill went from $160m to $78 per month. I can cool the house with a 12,000 BTU window A/C. And in the winter (when we had a blackout at -42') the house lost about 1 degree per hour.
I grew up in a “superinsulated” house my dad built in the late 70’s. It has 18” of blown in insulation in the walls with a separated offset studs inner wall, and nearly 3’ of blown in insulation in the attic. He spent about $50 for electric resistance heating the whole winter. This is in Northern Utah. If it were standard practice to build every house superinsulated we would probably be using less energy than even minus what the renewables generate, as a country.
The thing he didn’t mention is that he paid $20 for the “code” cooler but $400 for the other one. That is a cost difference to discuss as well which actually translates pretty accurately to the home.
Well by name dropping, maybe it was free. I'd like to see a list of free stuff (or the discount) on what he used in his own home.
Well obviously it costs more up front but you save in the long run. Do you prefer paying once or forever?
@@james.telfer that’s a useless question because it ignores the actual dollar difference you are paying and for how long.
A large percentage of the time, paying less up front is actually the objectively best choice.
@@reggiejenkins6458 Yep. People frequently fall for the fallacy that paying more now to pay less over time always works in your favor. This is commonly used to push the scammier solar installs. This is one of those cases where math can save us from our 'feelings': Net Present Value is the calculation these types of decisions should be run through to determine if it makes sense financially. It's not perfect, because you have to estimate certain things in the future (like the cost of energy in this example), but at least it's a framework and not a 'gut feeling'. The thing most people miss is what your money could be doing invested elsewhere, aka the discount rate. My solar calculations always look pretty good until I assume a 4% discount rate (which is reasonable for the stock market over 20 years) - with that, I'm better investing the money.
Agreed. Code requires a simple 2x6 framed wall. Going beyond requires more expensive and complicated framing, which adds to the overall cost that you must recoup through future reduced energy consumption. Not to mention more insulation as well. And you are either giving up square feet for thicker walls, or you are adding foundation to keep the square feet the same. That would be interesting to model, how much does adding that extra insulation increase in building costs.
While bulk insulation has its place, composite insulation is the future. Sandwiching bulk and reflective layers together is just one of many examples that can be tailored to suit the requirements, ie. fire resistance.
And don't even get me started on phase change materials, that stuff is just so cool.
As somebody who got spoiled growing up in R30 walls. I cannot agree more that the comfort is amazing
I'm putting r30 in my walls! I'm excited to over insulate, and barely use any firewood this winter lol
Yeah, the other thing I’ve learned from watching your videos is limit your ceiling penetrations going into the attic space and make sure any ones that you do have are well sealed before you blow in the insulation take the time to caulk the drywall to electrical boxes build a box to go over recessed cans make them airtight so you have no air flow and also do not put your heating and air system in the attic if possible mines going in my basement with a geothermal system
All that needs to be remembered is that doubling the insulation halves the heat movement. If you want to double the performance from R40 you have to go to R80. Trying to compare the difference between R2 and R4 and R36 and R38 gives the impression that R40 is sufficient rather than just showing how little R2 insulation is. The biggest benefit of high insulation means fewer temperature swings and better comfort when the temperature outside is extreme. Another reason I like having lots of insulation is because if the power goes out for some time, the house isn't going to freeze or boil. It's a good idea to build a house in a way that lots of low cost insulation can be used because achieving high levels of insulation with expensive insulation makes the cost benefit not worth it.
Comfort is an undervalued benefit. People spend a ton of money on high end finishes, but have an uncomfortable house. I would rather spend that same money (probably less) on insulation and sealing and be comfortable.
The resilience aspect is not considered enough. When I moved in to my old house 16 years ago we endured a bunch of multi-day power outages (thanks Pepco!), with the worst being the DC Derecho of 2012, where we ended up being without power for 8 days. This is a 75 year old house on slab, so with no power it takes very little time for the inside temps to match the outside temps and humidity, although the walls are CMU so that gives a bit of extra buffer. It was so miserable We gave up after 3 days and drove to a family's place out of state.
We broke down and bought a generator, big enough to power a room AC unit, refrigerator, and our well pump or water heater (don't need to power both at the same time). Since then we have used it exactly once, after hurricane Irene came through. It's a bit annoying to have paid that money and not needed it, but as a friend once told me, no one ever complains that their insurance didn't have to pay for their house burning down.
Thanks for another great video Matt.
My house was built in '68. Next to no improvements done, the wall R value is strictly from the 2 X 4's. Attic insulation is only R-2 with no roof ventilation. In the process of getting an up to date roof, attic fan, radiant barrier and R60 Rockwool. Doing as much as I can myself because Matt inspired me so it's his fault lol.
Wear gloves, a Tyvek suit and a good mask while handling the stuff, Home Depot sells a special knife tu cut the insulation, it saves a lot of aggravation. Read what type of vapor barrier is required in your area, as important as your insulation... times two.
It would be great to see a follow up explaining the differences between the different types of insulation placement - inside of walls, outsides of walls, both, and why one way versus the other.
We built our house in 2005. We have R19 walls and R78 insulation in the attic (long story). Our cooling bills in the have never run over $150 in the summer, and we heat with two gas fireplaces totaling 45K BTU. Our house has 2100 sq. ft. and we live in Mississippi.
I did the same with a 4700 sq ft home in So CA. R78 in ceilings kept the house very warm in the winter and cooler in the summer. The heat generated by the Spanish tiles is really high so AC is more efficient in the summer and the heat generated inside is trapped better in the winter.
Oh, the cost was around 5000$. I did it 12 years ago and it paid for itself in the first year.
You should have built with ICFs. End of discussion. Super insulated.
@ToddBizCoach Our house is a true modular home. Back in 2004 there wasn't much talk of icf.
Did you guys really say you installed and R78 in the attic? The only way that would be efficient is if you sealed the attic and or made it in the conditioned space. If your attic is just full of blown in insulation, then you never will hit an R78. What kind and type of insulation was installed? If you have open soffit vents and venting then R78 really isn't a realistic value. To achieve an R49-R60 have a very small difference in ROI. R49 here in Colorado is code for most areas, but we run up to an R60 blown-in fire barrier cellulose insulation that keeps the critters out and the sound levels down. You could tell the first day the difference as the Manual J load calculations changed dramatically. My home runs a 4-ton variable speed 20 SEER HP/AC unit. After I refigured the load, I can or could have used a 3-ton for the same amount of space. I gained back 1-ton worth of cooling, which isn't necessarily a good thing. But since my system is so high-end, it determines what the thermal load is and cools accordingly with the zone sensors. I am an HVAC technician and business owner that does Home Performance upgrades for clients, so I know quite a bit about insulation. You would definitely have very little, if any, advantage of running an R78 over an R60. The returns wouldn't even be noticeable on a calculation or a thermometer. Unless you converted it to an air-conditioned space and it is all finished with radiant barrier and it is completely sealed off, there would be zero benefit to that. It is interesting you both stated an R78. What code book or system designer recommended this arbitrary number? Might as well do an R90, which I don't even think it exists.
I have been to GreenFiber and Owing Corning training for the various products and they have never even talked about or given us product pamphlets or discussed such high R-values in the attic space. The Southern and roof lines that are facing side of the home free of shade would certainly benefit from an upgrade from an R19. Which begs the question, why didn't you upgrade that? We offer a solution that fills the wall cavity with liquid light expanding foam to fill in all the areas between the studs and there are various levels of cost and R-value. But people fail to remember that that evening the most expensive fancy windows with the highest-level UV blocking materials, you still have giant holes in your walls that are probably around an R-6\R-8 at the very most? The types of shades and blinds make a bigger difference and where your vents are placed to window wash the cooling or heating trying to pass through. They make lots of great window coverings that block significant loads and light, which means you live in a cave till the sun passes, but it will save you incredibly money compared to windows that cost 75 grand. A full roof of southern facing solar panels actually make the biggest difference in heat load being introduced, but you still need an R60 with a radiant barrier to be near the top 1%.
You definitely have provided one of the best explanation for extra Insulation that I have ever heard. I live on an island off the coast of Maine where winters are brutal. That extra insulation really makes a difference.
Hey Matt, new code in my area calls for R30 walls and R60 roof. Would love to see some videos on how the heck to achieve that without foam.
I've got a small 1950s rambler that I remodeled. I furred out the walls and ceiling from 3.5" to 5.5" (some placed are thicker for structural reasons), then had the whole thing sprayed with closed cell foam. Roughly an R-35. With the same ambient outdoor temperature and full sun, completely unconditioned, the attic went from 116F to 83F. Now my only issue is air sealing at the exterior doors - I haven't replaced them yet.
If I had to do it over again, I wouldn't. I would have sold the house as-is and built a small (sub-2,000^ft) "bomber" spec house on some acreage far away.
Matt,
I agree, I am a huge proponent of insulation. I have helped my family insulate several homes we have bought and renovated over the years. A huge benefit besides just the energy savings, sound dampening! Noisy streets / noisy neighbors / especially if you insulate the interior - noisy entertainment spaces or bedrooms are potentially much less of an issue. Its especially nice if you ever wanted to record something in a home, the sound quality is much better, especially coming from a content creator like yourself. Insulation benefits are not only measured in thermal performance, but even that saves lives in power outages in either extreme of cold or heat! I have been very pleased with the quality of the building science content you have made over the years. Would you be so kind as to explore aerogel insulation? Thanks
For those of us in older homes, a concern that pops up for me, is how to add more insulation while not exceeding the designed weight limit you can put on your ceiling. My house (built 1992, Maryland), 2x4 framing one story rambler, the ceiling framing is 24" OC with 1/2" drywall for the ceiling. The attic is not climate controlled, it's vented via the soffits and roof ridge. Honestly, it is not something I thought of until recently and didn't even think about "pillowing", sagging, or failure being a concern when wanting to add more insulation.
When we bought the house in 2005, we added more insulation to the attic, blown in, on top of the existing blown in. We probably had around 16"-20" total, depending on the area. Much better than the less than 12" that it had to start with. Over the years, and many visits to the attic later from home improvements, this insulation has packed down as well as had a few unwanted mice take residence (which we have now resolved).
Ideally, I would like to remove all the old blown insulation, seal any gaps and cracks, and put down something that is not as messing as blown that also is better at sound dampening (we have low flying aircraft nearby). I was looking at rock wool, but that is when the concern about weight came up in my research. Is there a way around this?
I wondered if I could get away with putting 4" rock wool directly on the ceiling between the joists (which should be within the designed weight limit), then install spaced out furring strips on top across the joists, and install additional rock wool batting on top of that or even fiberglass batting. Would the furring strips help handle the load of the added insulation so as to not be distributed directly onto the drywall, causing sagging/failure?
Also, how would one add insulation to their exterior walls if there isn't any already within the wall cavity?
My exterior framing is 2x4, 24" OC, vinyl siding, with the exterior board being a some kind of foam board instead of plywood (whatever was used and code back in 1992, R-Tech?).
When it comes time to replace the vinyl siding, would it be possible (or any benefit) to remove the old foam board attached to the framing, install batting into the cavities via the exterior, then put new boarding up. Or should I just leave it as is and just get a decent wrap installed and use an insulated siding? Not sure it would add any sound dampening benefits.
@@virtualmirage7690
My idea would be to put plastic wrap over the joists, and sag it down in the bays to i sulation-depth, and staple it to the tops. That way the insulation just sits in a olatic hammock, it taking aome weight off the cieling?
This is a great simple video... completely agree that diminishing returns as you go too high on insulation. But if you get a deal on extra insulation, take it for a long term ROI. Agreed, windows should be discussed as a huge benefit when you go from super old single pane windows to double pain or triple pain windows with inert gas between the pains or even some window tint.
Great episode! So important to break down the facts. As you have heard “the only statistics I believe are the ones I make up “. Zooming in on the chart makes such a difference.
So much wisdom comes down to knowing how to read graphs, or knowing how people "lie" with statistics. I'm really enjoying Allison Bailey's book right now. And the timing of advice on coolers is perfect too! Thanks for this video!
Speaking of graph: the one at 5:00 is SUPER MISLEADING. The distance between the marks on the horizontal axis increases along the axis (11 13 15... 30 35 40). Of course the curve will look more flat than the one at 3:20, which has even spacing!
If you compare 2 coolers at least get the igloo 5 day which has some insulation, much like the average home. The Yeti cooler should be the same exterior size. Then put a twelve pack in each one and fill to the top with ice. The Igloo holds more ice due to the larger interior space, just like the less insulated home gets a larger HVAC system. If you pull out one beer per hour when does it get warm, just like opening the front door to come inside. Both coolers keep the beer cold until it’s gone but the Igloo took more ice to do it.
Houston builder here. I think the more important question is the rate of return. At what point are you spending more money to insulate than you are getting back in return. I wish my clients weren't price driven, but 90% of my client base is. They don't want to overspend if they aren't getting a return anymore.
If you’re talking rate of return, talk about lifestyle as well. With insulation high enough, you stay comfortable at 70 while it’s 100 outside, you stay warm at 68 while it’s -50. But your HVAC barely has to come on. It means if you lose power in a storm, you’ll be warm at least long enough to sleep, and a battery might keep things warm enough for a week.
Efficiency is a big sell for me for many of the reasons you mentioned. Even if it's not directly sold as 'cost savings', it certainly is long term. If a house is built to last 50-100 years, going above min code will certainly at least pay for itself over time.
Another factor not mentioned is also sound control. The difference between R15 and R35 when it comes to acoustics is going to be drastic. It could mean hearing your neighbors loud truck every morning or not.
I have a 2x6 stud house (00s) I'm adding in as much as I can (25R) on the East, West, and South walls, because the electric bill was spiking over $400 a month in Tampa FL.
My buddy down the road has an old house (80s)with 2x4 studs second floor, 2x6 first floor. He has so little insulation that you can actually see light through the walls in spots. His electric bill is $70 a month at a nice comfortable setting. Might have something to do with the 10Kw solar panels on the roof.
Insulation requirements are relative to your electrical, mechanical, and structural situation.
Matt, I live in the North think -40°F in the winter, to 90°F, for very few days in the summer. Last roof rebuild, we went to R60 in the attic, great improvement.
Sweet!
Look at the R chart. Some of them are looking at a minimum temp of 25 degrees F. I’m looking at building with a minimum temp of the -40 degree F and we would like to hold a 100 degree temp gradient for a worst case scenario in winter.
Best money I ever spent was to have the concrete walls of my crawlspace sprayed with 3" of closed cell right up to the deck. The space was already semi-finished with a concrete floor and lighting when we bought it, but we were losing a lot to the cold walls and from the supply ducts that ran through it. Now it's "inside the envelope" and it's made a huge difference. One caution though, if you are considering this make sure you get a radon test as once you cut off the free air flow you'll be concentrating that gas in the space without proper radon mitigation.
Great stuff Matt. Another factor is energy cost, which are likely* to trend upwards over time.
*certainly.
Going from R20 to R40 on a wall, while your double pane windows are R3 is like installing a gate with no fence on either side of it.
I will have to take a look at that book. My first thought about increasingly airtight homes these days was CO2. You need some exchange of air with the outside world or your indoor air quality will suffer, in ways that can be hard to detect: headaches, fatigue, difficulty sleeping, reduced cognitive performance. In my own home, if everyone was home and the house fully buttoned up, our levels would shoot up to quadruple the ppm outside, sometimes more. Way more than what you need for negative health effects.
From the Table of Contents of Dr. Bailes's book, it seems like he might talk about some of these issues. This would be a great topic for a video, btw. (hint hint)
Great stuff as always Matt - I love that you encourage your viewers to rethink assumptions.
Matt, curious what is the average cost to take a house from "code" to "Yeti Cooler"? For example, on your house, what was the all-in cost of adding 2" of foam on the walls and 4" on the roof? And I mean all-in cost. Materials and labor for installing the foam, all the unique hardware required for fastening it, added costs from having to detail around the windows etc, having to add a second layer of roof sheathing or using super long fasteners for the metal roofing, maybe even added costs of hiring subcontractors who charge more because they can deal with advanced building practices that traditional builders can't handle.
I am all about energy efficiency, but I am skeptical of your philosophy on this, from specifically a cost-recovery standpoint. We have a renovated 2,000ft home in climate zone 4. Insulated basically to minimum code, even less in some areas. Andersen 400 series windows. Mini split heat.
$30,000 solar power system which has us slightly better than net zero. So essentially we are heating and powering the house for $30k for 25 years. I think that if we had super-insulated to reduce our solar need by $15,000, it would have cost us an extra $100,000 or more on the build.
This question right here please can we get a response to this ?
By my rough math, from the example he used based on the article, saving 2.8MM BTUs of heat transfer through the walls over a season (probably one per year) and heating/cooling with a heat pump with a underestimated COP of 2.5 and Texas electricity cost of $0.115/kWh, you're saving about $40/year. Spray foam costs many thousands of dollars for even smaller jobs; that would never pay back over the time you live in the home, and that's not even bringing in better NPV calcs or adding that most people change houses every 7-13 years or so.
I just built a 3500 square foot bungalow, with "extra" 2 inch zip R sheathing, it cost about 30,000 more than if i had just used conventional sheathing. This is in canada, however. Prices are much higher than Austin.
@@jsnx9067 Does that include additional labor? And what did you do for your roof?
Also worth noting, the reduced wear and tear on your heating and cooling system as it does not have to work as hard to keep you comfortable. This saves you money in repair and eventual replacement costs by extending the life of your heat pump.
this is only true if you purposely undersize. if properly sized there is no "extra' wear and tear.
FYI. On the blog link there are additional charts from R11 & 16 to R40 & 45. On the R2 - R40 chart the reduction past R11/16 doesn't look like much but it is still quite a drop.. approx 70-77% depending on climate zone.
This is one of my favorite videos you have made. Great information
Hey Matt, I am retro fitting a 70-100 year old house in St. Louis, Missouri. I personally believe wall and ceiling insulation is important. But, I am concerned about wood radiation and air infiltration. I am using a common product form board with a foil face. It's about R-7. Over that I will use 5/8 drywall sheets. Using many of your little tricks I expect to drop my air changes per hour to a tiny fraction of the original ratio. So, my short point is this, insulation is dandy. Radiation and infiltration is the candy. Be well.
I would love to hear your take on lightweight cellular concrete particularly for under-slab insulation due to its fire and termite resistance, but also as a structural material for foundation and walls.
Well, if 100% more is good, then 200% more is better!
That’s what I did on my home remodel on a 57 year old house. Went from R-19 code to R-57, even if that’s well beyond what required in the Bay Area. For an extra $2500 of insulation at the same time as the regular insulation, I’ve been able to drop my utility bills to about half of similar houses, saving $100-150 a month during the winter and $75-100 a month during the summer. I estimate my breakeven is around 18-24 months. Just a no-brainer.
Getting ready to start insulating this lemon we bought . been running the number and this video was right on time. favorite build channel ive found keep up the awesome work man.
The problem is the high price of insulation because the manufacturers are charging very high profit margins. Yes, we live in a capitaltistic society (and I don't have a problem with that because I've worked in 17 other countries and our system is better) but I looked at the cost of adding insulation to my old R13 house and it would take 11 YEARS to pay for it. Simply not worth it.
If insulation was cheaper than more people would use more.
Hi Matt, I anticipate starting a house build next summer, and knowing how important insulation is, have you made a "what not to do" video?, it would be super beneficial as well to avoid any land mines . I figure out what I dont want, which makes it easier to determine what I do want. Good video. Be well.
🤔 good idea. Let me work on that
Which climate zone are you talking about?
1. Better to go with Rockwool over spray foam. Much easier to install and makes easier to do repairs. Also in case of a fire, Rockwool won't outgas toxic fumes.
2. I would stick with 2" exterior rigid foam installation, Any thicker and you need to put in a special order for thicker panels and it become more difficult to fasten multiple layers of foam insulation. Most Big Box sell 2" thick foam insulation.
3. Go with 2x6 with 24 on-center stud walls: less thermal bridging, & less overall material (slightly lower stud costs).
4. Avoid using Open truss floor joist, or if you do, I recommend adding OSB\Plywood as fire break & as well as constricting rodent & bug movement.
5. For Sheathing go with ZIP system: Much easier air sealing
6. Uponor PEX unless your on city water (Chloramines used to chlorinate water destroys PEX & copper)
7. In a good insulated home, most of the thermal losses will happen in the windows. Using fewer windows & smaller windows will help.
@@guytech7310 you gives him advice not knowing in which climate zone he wants to build a house . It sounds very professional
@@andreycham4797 Won't make much of a difference, unless you live in Canada or Sibera which has access to more insulating products.
Not Michael E asked Matt to produce a video without disclosing his climate zone. Is that my fault? No.
R40 in my walls r70 on my attic floor all the way out to the soffit. (Raised heel trusses) conditioned crawlspace with r40 walls and r10 foam board over the concrete floor in the crawlspace. Cost me an extra 7k over just putting in code minimum. And yes it'll pay itself back in not only lower energy bills but the HVAC runs less so there's a longer life to the equipment. That's one thing most don't consider
I 💯 agree about the comfort level. Our house is not well insulated and not only temperature fluctuations from spot to spot is wide, the only time we don’t have air heating/cooling on is when the temperature is about 55-70 degrees (very limited time in Chicago).
I keep thinking of you this year because I’m often in this new build neighborhood in north DFW where they’re using Dryline TSX. At least all the brick anchors are done correctly so everyone will have two walls left when the wood sided walls rot and blow down.
Hi, Matt, great video! I hope you will do a follow-up video comparing insulation levels for a cold climate, perhaps zone 5 or 6. Also, could you talk about the proportions needed between interior cavity insulation and continuous exterior insulation?
I’ve read that increasing the amount of cavity insulation without increasing the thickness of the exterior insulation can cause problems within the wall cavity because the added cavity insulation prevents heat from the interior from reaching the exterior sheathing and that surface can become colder, leading to moisture condensing on the sheathing.
Around the year 2000 I had an addition on a home we were purchasing. The contractor had a subcontractor do the insulation work. The next day they were going to hang the plaster board and I inspected the job and found deficiencies. They came back the next day and fixed the errors. The builder and I had a big discussion about venting the bathroom fan into the eaves in north eastern United States specifically western Pennsylvania. he assured me that he would fix any problem if one developed. I was certain venting the bathroom fan into the eaves was a huge mistake but it took about a year and icicles hanging down before he realized that he had to do something. He had consulted with other builders in the area who like him were supposed to be famous for their work. They concluded that there was too much insulation in the attic of this structure. Turns out when they moved the vent from in the age to through the roof, all the icicles went away. Strangely the rest of the structure that was 25 years old and I had re-insulated by another contractor had no icicle problems equaling of course no heat loss.
Matt you had the difference in energy usage between the code and extra insulation house. All you need to do is take the MMBTU saved and calc the cost of that energy for gas and/or electric. Compare that to the extra cost of the insulation.
We are building a new house in northern Minnesota and insulation here is critcal regardless of talking heat coming in or going out. More insulation reduces winter heat bills and lowers the need for summertime AC. It'a a no-brainer.
In my area R35 to 45 for exterior walls and R60 for the attic , that is recommended amount not code, for the best heat retention. All cracks and gaps have to be sealed prior to installing the insulation, we have a pre insulation inspection and a post insulation inspection , with all the government craziness about carbon reductions and the price of energy going up, it just makes sense to spend a little more now to save a lot in the long run !
Comfort is also a big factor, having a good guess of how much energy cost for each month of the year is a great stress reliever for fixed income people.
After improving your windows, insulation, radiant barrier (southern states), led lighting, and modernizing your hvac system, then evaluate if solar is worthwhile.
I currently live in a 2400 square foot house with 14" dense pack cellulose walls, R80 attic and triple pane windows. It was heated during the winter after the drywall with a 1500 watt heater. Our power went out for 31 hours after a snow storm. At minus 5C the inside temperature went down 2.5 degrees C.
Once the battery storage is installed thirty one hours will be a wonderful experience with no internet.
If a well built house will be around for more than a hundred years consider what the total energy savings will be
and you'll still never recoup the extra labor and construction costs. well maybe in 101 years.
@@jsnx9067 Recouping the cost is not a concern. The house will be around for more than a hundred years saving money and our planet for all those who live in it. The dense pack cellulose stores a fair amount of carbon. No airconditioning costs, extreme comfort, incredibly quiet. I guess I will not recover the cost of the attached greenhouse either but picking tomatoes in the dead of our northern winters is rewarding
I have built houses that cost up to eight million. I wonder if one will recoup the extra cost on a fifty thousand dollar BBQ centre when they could of gone to McDonalds .
You remind me of the first time I built a passive solar home. I talked to some one who was also building passive solar but did not insulate the concrete slab saying it would take ten years to get the money back. That was forty years ago. I guess they have been heating tera firma for the last thirty years at a great expense. An insulated slab is the heat sink for a passive solar home.
Sometimes us wealthy quality builders have other concerns.
Little Apple Homes, building quality energy efficient homes for more the forty years and not caring what others think or say. If I listened to others I would be building the same crap as everybody else.
I’m building on a mobile home frame 2x6 walls all closed cell . my ceiling is 2x10 all closed cell . I’m not sure on these r values and I don’t care cuz dang heating n cooling costs next to nothing . I live in Tennessee and friends were why so tight ? And now they understand. I believe more is better. And like Matt I got a towel warmer I LOVE it along with my floor heat . Thanks for the videos.
There is what is called diminishing return with insulation .... so yes, getting goofy with insulation is TOO MUCH. I built a 2,500 sq.ft. house in Minnesota that costs $15/mo to heat in the winter and uses a 1.5 ton central AC unit to keep it cool in the summer. Controlling air flow is a bigger consideration, and with that you need to have air exchanges so the house doesn't become polluted. First inch of insulation will reduce heat loss by 50%, to obtain a 50% reduction in the remaining 50% of heat loss you will need to add double the insulation, and it continues like that, so like said diminishing return. And if that isn't enough, I remodeled a house in Tucson that does just as well.
The thing I like best, about added insulation is, once it's in, there is no maintenance. The house I live in now, has no insulation, in the masonry walls. Built in 1945.
My new house will be over insulated! A house, that the furnace doesn't run all night, would be heaven.
Excellent review -- QUESTION -- Matt, on you personal home build why did you not use the "flash and batt" method and spray some closed cell foam in the interior walls? I am assuming it is due to sponsorship with Rockwool (which we are all totally cool with). If you also were sponsored by a closed cell company would you have used it too? In that perfect world where money was not a consideration would you use closed cell and rockwool? Can't figure this out because in many videos you seem to like closed cell foam but on your personal home you don't seem to like it.
I'm a slow flipper and get all my fiberglass insulation as salvage for free here in Phoenix. I buy 1940's fixers which generally have no insulation. I furr out the walls on the interior with 2x2. First furring on the diagonal to add shear strength. Then another layer of vertical 2x2's for the drywall. So 8" wall. Makes running electric super easy too and much safer imo when wires are 4" in from outside and inside wall. Driving even a 3" screw is unlikely to hit a wire.
The furring scheme also almost eliminates wood thermal bridging.
I trade time for material cost. Collecting the salvaged insulation takes time and gas. Getting bats into the furring configuration takes a lot of time.
Seems to be more comfortable but that's subjective.
It’s all about the stats/metrics and how they are displayed - what matters is scale - the more compressed the scale upon which the analysis is pegged, the smaller the scale of the analysis, the larger on the scale the variants are portrayed
To that point : the graph at 5:00 is SUPER MISLEADING. The distance between the marks on the horizontal axis increases along the axis (11 13 15... 30 35 40). Of course the curve will look more flat than the one at 3:20, which has even spacing.
There are much more important things than just insulation. Air barrier, air gaps, radiant barriers, thermal mass, and then is the person considering solar or backup power? That can be a big deal with getting smaller equipment to be able to be more resilient and get off grid. Then, is there money for an ERV? It could take like 10 years to make the money back off of the initial purchase of an ERV of $2k, but it can farther reduce peak power loads. It all comes down to creating the results that make sense for the homeowner.
Well Done ! Great method of getting great results of sealing and insulation ! Question on the aluminum foil covered house wrap- How is your cell phone reception inside the house?
You’re the best since Bob Vila whom I adored from 1980. Look forward to your future TV show.
*Your insulation is as only good as your weakest link.* Example: You can build a double wall system that is comprised of two 2x6 24OC walls with a 2 inch gap filled with dense cellulose creating a perfect thermal break and the exterior having rigid insulation and get a total Wall R value of 50. Sounds great until you install a window with on that wall. Windows average 3 to 5 R value. That window (depending on size) will dramatically impact the effectiveness of that wall. It's no different from having an amazing insulated system and leaving a door or window open to let the outside temps in.
Even the best passive house windows can’t match a standard R19 wall so it’s always the weak link, in Certified Passive House you see the windows placed mostly south for letting winter sun in & proper length overhang for summer sun & avoid east & west facing because they’re difficult to shade and in a passive house it will make the house overheat. Proper window placement is key for a house just don’t put too many because all the insulation in the world don’t mean much if the wall is 80% windows.
There is a youtuber named sprayjones or something that goes into research papers regarding this stuff and there really is a set of diminshing returns after 2.5 inches of closed spray foam. A shocking amount.
Also he gives us a red pill of "R" ratings and how useless they are.
You didn't have the math words to describe the graphs but you did a good job anyway. To say it in a mathy way, the change in heat flow from R0 to R11 is an exponential decay, while the change from R11 to R40 is linear (and not really flat, it just looks flat on a graph next to a decaying exponential). And this linear change still provides plenty of value.
Not at all! The graph at 5:00 is SUPER MISLEADING. The distance between the marks on the horizontal axis increases along the axis (11 13 15... 30 35 40). Of course the curve will look more flat than the one at 3:20, which has even spacing!
@@audetnicolas The scaling doesn’t matter so much, just lets you visually see the change better. It is still a linear graph. You don’t change that even with different scaling. But if you disagree that the linear decrease in heat flow is not providing enough value, that’s your choice. For me, the comfort and decreased energy bills is big enough for me to justify it.
@@TheNativeTwo I don't disagree with insulating more than code. But justifying with that graph, and saying that it's linear makes no sense.
Btw : having identical increments on the horizontal axis would "stretch" the right end of the line more towards the right. In the end the line would have exactly the same shape as the one on the first graph. This means that you still have diminishing returns to your investment in insulation.
@@audetnicolas All it does is change the "appearance" of the slope of the line. It doesn't change it from linear to non-linear and doesn't change the actual slope of the line. You can justify not insulating however you want, but the additional reduction makes sense for me.
Bro, I don't think you even know what linear means. You are misunderstanding basic math.
Saying something is linear is not a justification. A flat line is linear. That would bring you no value. Go reread what I wrote. I never said that it being linear was a justification for additional insulation, you are putting your words in my mouth. Strawman fallacy.
@@audetnicolas Let me give you some basic graph math so you can maybe understand a bit better. Let's say you have a graph of a decaying exponential that asymptotes at a particular point. The portion of the graph where the value is decreasing rapidly can be described as nonlinear, decaying exponential, whereas the portion of the graph that approaches and follows the asymptote can be approximated as linear. That's all I am saying. It is not a justification. It's a description. I was trying to help him describe it better. Scaling doesn't change any of the this.
Great practical information. Did you mention if the extra insulation may reduce sound filtration as well? That would contribute to the overall 'comfort' in my book. Thanks for sharing!
In my experience (living in the north), after at least getting a nominal amount of R value, stopping air infiltration does far more to save energy than excess R value.
My experience living in southern NY, is that there was a drop from the original insulation(1.5 in in walls) to R21 with a vapor barrier, and ceiling (3.5 inch) to R43 and it dropped our NG usage from over 1100 CCF to less than 700 CCF per winter. We also reduced the size of our furnace for winter and our cooling capacity decreased from 4 ton to 1.5 ton for the summers. And this cost saving lasted 19 years until we sold the house. So the payback time for us was 4 years for the furnace and 2 years for the insulation. I agree with stopping the air flow though the walls, windows, and doors helps a lot with the house comfort.
A basic math fact that is underappreciated is that power law functions are scale free. The power law function continues to exist at the same power (curve shape) regardless of the scale. In this case the scale is the R value or MBTU's in the house. Every investment decision requires a unique analysis. In the case of insulation you should be looking at a 30 year NPV. This means you will use a lot more insulation than you think.
You forgot to add 45L incentives , you can receive tax deductions and credits for greener homes, this helps offset the higher cost while also receiving the comfort benefits
It becomes the cost of the insulation vs the return on that cost vs all inputs to comfort.
Very informative, thanks for this discussion, I’ll be using this in application
Matt, I love tis subject. I framed my house in 2x6x24 with R23 Rockwool insulation and an additional 1 inch of Polyiso foam on the exterior. Roof is R46 (sealed attic) with a vented metal over roof. The energy bills are stunningly lower than the ones we had in our 1970s house before, BUT: We have huge southeast facing window walls that deminish the overall insulation value in those rooms. I would have liked to see a reference to Steve's video from a few weeks ago where he talked about "effective" R-Value. In our situation, I believe that adding more insulation would likely lead to a cost increase with little to no benefit. I do agree, though, on the code being way to little insulation.
Get some trees in there for shade.
Consider using a honeycomg type insulating window shade that you close as soon as the sun sets. I was surprised of the results. Hunter Douglas makes a good quality model.
@@wetrock2766 Yes, we are planning on adding motorized blinds to the upstairs windows and a patio cover or retractable awning to the downstairs. The point was merely to state that there is a limit to the effectiveness of adding insulation based on the overall wall concept and the number and size of openings not impacted by the insulation increase. If you will, think about it as insulating the walls but leaving the doors and windows open. But thanks for the response.
In Texas, if we can start with actually getting builders to sheath houses with OSB or plywood would be a good start… I tend to agree with adding more insulation because it’s static in nature.
This! Can't stand that seemingly more than 80% of the builders use DryLine or ThermoPly cardboard sheathing. Junk.
Vancouver BC is getting into R 60 on new houses. the average temp is like 70 (20C) degrees. barely hitting freezing for 3 weeks in the winter, maybe 2 weeks of 112(35), yet that building code is almost double what you should need.
The graph at 5:00 is SUPER MISLEADING. The distance between the marks on the horizontal axis increases along the axis (11 13 15... 30 35 40). Of course the curve will look more flat than the one at 3:20, which has even spacing! Matt, you're full of bull...
The numbers are still valid though and that's what he focussed on. The actual energy transmission losses were still half as much by the end of the graph.
@@robertszynal4745 Yeah, but no. The numbers are valid but his point is that if you start the axis from the minimum requirement as per the code, then the line is straighter, which he equates to better return on the investment. That just not a valid argument.
This being said, I am not saying that you should not insulate beyond the cofe requirements, just that his argument is fallacious.
I think the point really that most ppl want to see how much all the extra insulation is vs the return on investment. As a GC if I have a client that wants a high performance house I steer away from stick frame and go to ICF. You can achieve a way tighter house for less cost then all the extras it takes to get a stick frame house there
Matt, awesome video! Super spot-on on everything! Only I would please inform you viewers of the damage that could happen with spray foam insulation on their coils! What is released by those products can cause a certain type of of corrosion in the coils that can lead to premature detriment! I’m sure your fully aware, but it has to be mentioned. Only say this because we get potential customers who want a new “elite” system and latter want to spray foam… that’s like buying a Lamborghini and leaving by the beach…
I appreciate the swig of still hot tea for effect
I enjoy the videos. It’s disappointing from time to time how the science and math is lost for feelings or personal opinions. Some of the comments have touched on it. You have the ability to put dollars to the cost of insulation. It’s definitely modeled and figured out during the design, but not typically passed to the owners. It could be shown what a 2000ft2 house with a square shape with equal walls would cost with changing amounts of insulation to heating costs. Keep the science and math at the forefront and you’ll gain some interested home owners, instead of losing them to what you think or prefer.
Matt, I’ve been watching the channel for many years now…I’m a homeowner educating myself for a future home build and there’s something that sticks out like a sore thumb that is missing from what you preach! You always stress high performance but you rarely if ever build smaller homes. I know you build homes for upscale clientele, but it’s hard to swallow what you tell us when you miss what’s most likely the biggest factor in efficiency. I do commend you in keeping your own home under 3000 sq. Ft. So I know you understand what I’m expressing here!
so your beef is he doesn't build houses at a lower price point? i think his employees whose paycheck depend upon the client's budgets sized where they are would disagree with you.
would you critique the tax advice of an accountant whose clients all make 2.5 milllion a year and say yea you don't represent any middle class people so your knowledge and advice is invalid or less than?
you're a proposing an extremely goofy paradigm. professionals don't get to choose their clients, for the most part.
@@stevecrawford6958 It was a non-carnivorous comment I assure you and nothing was said to do with price point. My comment was meant to be a challenge to Matt in order to address a glaring parameter to building a high performance home that seems to go unrecognized in many circles of the trade. Not sure I follow your accountant analogy, but my accountant would advise me to build the home I need and further invest the savings. As far as professionals not picking their clients that’s just plain silly sir…once you’ve made it and are the best in your field or area you are more than able to pick your clients as time is your only limiting factor.
Obviously he's going to prioritize videos for his own projects. Since most of his customers are likely spending well over $1 million, you're never going to see anything so small. However, he did a couple videos on smaller homes and very, very tiny homes that he didn't build.
Just imagen a 200,000 square foot home that is more efficient and consumes less than an 200 square foot home.
@@MerkDolf Impossible if built to the same standards!
Matt, selling customers on energy efficiency is worth while. Just don't sell that with an expectation of lower energy bills. And that is for the exact reason you mentioned...there are always more gagets, lights, doodads, etc. I always look at it as making it eaiser to add those additional creature comforts without added energy use overall (towel warmers, heated floors, home automation, etc)
Good info, you think the “extra” insulation is expensive just wait and see what the cost of energy to heat and cool is 10 years from now. Adding insulation during the construction phase is so much easier than trying to retrofit down the road.
no one retrofits. energy will barely budge int he next 10 years. everyone already pats nore in admin fees than energy costs. the only expensive energy is green energy and people are waking up to that scam thankfully.
We're going r47.5 on our walls and r65 on the roof in PA. Full high performance renovation of a 1700s hotel someone converted into apartments in the 70s, tearing that all out to turn it into a bed and breakfast.
Savings annualized are not static but will increase generally over time as utility costs rise adding to long term benifits
Awesome. Great breakdown and explanation
If you are on fixed income and can not afford higher energy cost, you can certainly not afford the cost of more insulation which can be VERY expensive. Of course that expensive insulation helps increase the profits of builders like you.
Yeah, diminishing returns is very real no matter how much you blow up the axes of your graph to make it look like R38 walls in Austin is not a dumb idea and colossal waste of money. Expanding graph axes is a very common Advertising 101 trick to make it look like a huge gain can be had by buying this product.
It all comes down to how much do you save in energy costs vs. how much did it cost. Your little Yeti demonstration only works if you mean to save on ice bags. How about a calculation from your build Matt.? How long will it take to recoup the expense of R38 walls in Austin?
He's not claiming a huge gain, he stated the numbers and even gave a disclaimer that the increase should not be "sold" as an HVAC cost improvement but rather a comfort improvement. If you don't think it's worth it then don't do it, however energy is only getting more expensive so why not make a one-time investment for the next 100+ years of occupant comfort?
@@kentaltobelli1840 energy will have to go 10X higher to even remotely ever recoup the extra material and labor cost. just give it up, there is no financial argument for more insulation. none.
Insulating is important but I personally think creating air gaps and reflecting heat can be just as important. Surprised you don’t go over those just as important aspects
Little things can sure add up. I remember seeing a design for a pergola type slatted porch. They were angled so that in the summer they blocked sun from getting to the windows, but in the winter, when the sun is lower, the sun comes in. (They also had some overlap and a rain channel so as long as it wasn't too windy, sprinkles didn't get people wet underneath.) Throw some trees in front to shelter you from the sun a bit more in the summer and lose their leaves in the winter...
Do you mean sealing air gaps?
@@Lughnerson sure, dead air space also has r value, radiant barriers, and insulation all have important roles to play
@@nacoran Trees are easy and really help.
That's more important only in hot climates. Better insulation benefits everyone.
It's like spending more once rather than less and paying a subscription FOREVER
Good one Matt.
Left out of this discussion is the overall balance of your enrgy approach.why have triple pane windows with only r 20nwalls? Or have r 80nroofs with even triple pane windows? And as mentioned tight should be priority above code before your start putting on exterior insulation, 24 in oc studs; get triple pane upvc windows from europe ThEN go for mor insulation .
ICF homes… no brainer.
3x the cost of conventional. you'd have to have no brain to go ICF.
"I wonder what my favourite insulation salesman is up to today..."
"Oh.."
That is one major benefit of ICF.