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25:28 This is just my opinion but I think that a narrow vertical directivity is not bad. Of course it depends on usage Is it stereo hi-fi speaker or part of a 6 speaker home cinema system? For stereo speaker I would prefer speaker with constant not to wide horizontal and vertical directivity. Vertical directivity should not be laser tight because you listen to music sitting down, standing up or even lying on a couch. 60-90° range for vertical seems ok to me. For horizontal dispersion I would go for 90-120°. The point is to minimize early reflection and energy directed towards the room. For home cinema I would prefer narrow vertical dispersion because audience is sitting down and wide horizontal dispersion 120-180°to cover all the audience. Combine that with acoustic treatment for home cinema room and you maximize direct sound vs reflected sound.
I am a MK SOUND dealer. The IW150s are very much a current product and retail for $2200. As a professional, you definitely have to make adjustments to frequency due to room variations. Good review. Glad you put so many brands up that are INVISIBLE to the average consumer.
I have set this before and I will say it again myself and a lot of the older Reviewers from all different publications respect the hell out of you We love the fact that you are humble and extremely educated And do not look down on anybody Getting into the hobby or wanting to learn. Thank you so much for what you do buddy By far the most refreshing guy out there
Erin, I can’t thank you enough for all of this!!! No one reviews in walls and I am glad the one that does is you! I love your honesty and how clearly you explain everything in a way that makes it easy to compare. You are helping a lot of us out here and I hope you continue this incredible work! Your channel is among my all time favorite!!
Dude. Honestly. You are invaluable to the audio community. You should have DOUBLE the subscribers of people like The A. You tell things the way they are. Your reviews potentially save people tons of money and can give them the right direction. Keep up the kick ass work !
I used to frown upon in walls that didn’t have back boxes. That’s what we are taught. This is incredibly valuable information to have! And it’s not that they are bad they just must be designed and sized right. But that looks like it’s rare. I really expected more from many of these speakers. Many of them were high on my internet list. I’ve been regularly checking for this video. You knocked it out the park! Thanks again!
I do appreciate how much time and effort you put into all these tests and especially the listening evaluations. Interesting that price did not assure performance. Thank you for calling out bad ones. I really need you to test the SCL-2.
Nice! I was puckering in my seat watching and waiting for hopeful positives about the performance of the Focal after having outfitted my entire theater and then my living room with the 1000 series and that IWLCR6 model specifically for all my mains. Kind of a bummer. Would have rather had glowing results. I see similar characteristics in my raw measurements. Anthem ARC in both rooms though does very well handling the speaker for Harman-esque custom curves with the AVM70 and the STR. I'm very pleased with my system and its integration nonetheless. We can still be friends, LOL. 😀
I'm an on wall/ceiling guy (JBL 9300) and before I went that way I so wanted in walls as they are much more room friendly. But also as a 2 channel box speaker guy I could never convince myself that you could get the same performance from in walls. Dollars for dollars aside. Huge amount of work you have done here and am hugely grateful. Subscribed.
Erin, just want to say I’m eternally grateful for the work you do man. It’s highly appreciated. You’re an awesome guy. Your humble attitude rocks mister. Loving your content. You seem like a super great guy. Very relatable and genuine. It’s something very special indeed. Wish you all the best even through the tougher times.
Thanks for doing this Erin, the results were super enlightening. If possible one day it would be awesome if you could review some of the Triad inwall speakers. They seem to be super popular on AVS and I have always wondered how they would fair on the KLIPPEL. It goes without saying but you are the man!
I had high hopes for the Focal 1000. Since you are saying you think the enclosure might be a limiting factor, I really now wonder how the much less expensive Focal 300 series with the flax drivers would compare to the Focal 1000 series. Since those are open backed, there is an opportunity for the user to build their own, larger back box to maybe help with some of the resonances. It would be interesting to see what spending almost 3 times as much money really gets you.
Just amazing! Excellent work and the community really appreciates what you do. You had the 3 that were on my short list so now deciding time of KEF vs JBL. Again,I can’t said enough thank you sir!!!!!!
Hi with the miller and kreisel,these speakers are supposed to be paired with a subwoofer, they are not really designed to create low frequencies ,I use the s150 cabinet type and I believe these s150 are all about detail, that’s why film makers use them 🤷♂️🤔
I always wondered what would happen if you put a bookshelf speaker in wall? Could put some foam around it with some type of custom mount case for the 2inch that will stick out the wall. An Arendal 19.. would be interesting to see, Since those in wall already cost a fortune
I heard the Flagship Focal inwalls along with the matching inwall subs at Axpona 2022. While I was initially surprised with the dynamics and sheer volume output capabilities, they did sound boomy too. Very boomy. I’m shocked at this price point they would sound that bad.
Love the honesty. Guys like thomas & stereo & cheapaudioman and many more don't even say the name of brand which sounded bad for eg at a show or heard at their friends house[thomas & stereo]. Thank you erin for keeping it real. Love your honesty.
Yeah too many reviewers shy away from handing out negative reviews. But those are so important for informing consumers which products to avoid, so they can find better products. Very happy to see that Erin is honestly recommending against MartinLogan, Focal and B&W.
I think most companies are just reusing drivers from their bookshelf and tower speakers to save money. Sad but common, they won't spend any of their profit margin on a slightly better driver or crossover.
Wow! There are a lot of surprises about in-wall speakers, bad ones for the most part! You point very expertedly all the pitfalls and caveats of putting ready-made speakers without proper analysis of the sound characteristics of each design. At the price point (mostly over 1000$ each), I was expecting a more balance sound and a much better dispersion. Thanks for sheding some light on a huge portion of the audiophile spectrum we never hear about!
Great review as usual Erin! At the end of the day, it seems like the results overall are not very surprising. In walls will never be the same quality as a speaker with a defined enclosure based on its characteristics. However it's interesting that the two budget models do as well as they do while all the expensive ones turned out to be pretty crappy except for the KEF.
Eeeesh, I makes me scared to consider in-walls for the next iteration of my HT build. Hopefully we can find a diamond in the rough when looking at some more budget friendly options.
Stage detail of Miller Kreisel is just on another level. Maybe SNR, or DB senistivity measures different from others, but in reality when put together you get another dimension in sound from MK. I was watching one scene many times for testing and only after i put MK SUR55 and LCR950 i realised that this scene has a rain sound, then looked closeley and here you go there was a rain outside the window in the scene which i never seen before after watching it 100 times, numbers do not tell full sotry, but real sound does. Maybe thats why MK is mostly used in Atmos studios.
Nice review Erin! I cannot believe how poorly integrated those more expensive designs were. The responses were unacceptable for that price, and seemingly poorly executed crossovers. Very surprised and now more informed!
Erin, super interesting video. Thank you for taking the time and energy to educate us. Just out of curiosity, any interest or plan to test any of the Monolith THX in walls? Would be interesting to see how they stack up against the much more expensive models you tested here.
Came here to say this as well! The LCR THX and the 275 versions are very appealing. I'm interested to see the horizontal dispersion of the LCR setup as well.
Would love to see some triad speakers reviewed/measured if you can get your hands on some. Seems they are a favorite of custom installers but I've yet to see any data... Makes you wonder if the CI guys know something we don't or maybe the margins are just that good!
Erin thank you so much for this test! I have 5xJBL SCL-6, 4xJBL SCL-7, and 4xRevel 783s coming in this Friday. I was really splitting hairs if I should have gone with KEF over JBL and it looks like it would have been a win either way. I'm also really surprised that OEM backer boxes were a detriment, as the popular opinion is the exact opposite with little scientific evidence to back that opinion up. Really love this content as buying in-walls is often a guessing game for most people.
@@burningsti Good question! My ceiling slopes upward from the screen position towards the back of the room, so it made having an angled Atmos speaker difficult to position at the listening area. After doing some research I had found Revel was often used for Atmos in tandem with JBL Synthesis bed layer when mixing audio for Blu-ray. I'll reply to this thread if it sounds drastically different when sound moves from the bed layer to the Atmos.
@@angussmall So I just started doing sound tests this week and I love it. I'm running an Anthem MRX1140 and powering the base 7 channels with a Monolith 7x. I ended up having a toed in baffle wall built for the left and right so I am no longer going to use front wides. Even if I had double the budget I would still go with the same JBL Synthesis speakers. My room is pretty much finished aside from still being on the waitlist for an Epson LS12000/Sony 5000. Its painful testing a system I'm so happy with on an old 27inch monitor =p.
@@tristanstoker233 🤣🤣 Wow! I can imagine. That’s awesome to hear. What are your room dimensions? Looks like you will have one amazing setup! Glad it’s working out!
I can hardly express how much audio scene owes to this whole new gen of objecti-philes like Erin or Amir or some others. It not easy to admit how we were fooled by industry and review "authorities" for decades. Most stuff is just plain physics. Which is dry matter. While an army of subjectivists has the full dictionary plus rosey poetry to sell stuff. Today I understand much better why some statements and claims always felt strange.
Great video. I have the Revel W990's for my LCR, W893's for the sides and C783's for the atmos. Amazing sound for both movies and music. I have an Anthem 1140X with a Krell Amp to drive the LCR's. I was able to do a blind test of 6 different brands at the installers location and the Revel's came out on top. Everyone's ears are different and I would recommend, if at all possible, to do a blind test. You might be surprised as to what you like when you don't know the brand you're listening to. Love the Revels. Oh, and if you can afford it, JL Audio's inwall subs are amazing.
I love my Anthem 1140 MRX too, but I always liked Focal sound, so my front is Sopra 3, which is connected to Pass Labs XA30.8 with xp-12 preamp. At the rear are my first Focal speakers, Electra 1008be, then Sopra centre. I just bought 4x 1000series ICW6 to complete atmos. I'm planning to build diy surround speakers with two more ICW6. I'm addicted to beryllium as you can tell😄, so it will be all around me. For sub, I have Rel 812S and I plan to buy a second one mainly to complete my stereo. My priority was always good stereo system, so home cinema was really an afterthought, but now I definitely appreciate surround more.
Good job Erin. I listen to the AV Rant podcast, and the guys on there are very knowledgeable generally but they are repeatedly insistent that in-wall speakers need an enclosure. They seem to think that a speaker without an enclosure is automatically going to be inferior and speakers just need an enclosure to sound good, even if you have to do your own DIY box in the wall. That has always struck me as false. I have been following speaker design since a subscription to Speaker Builder magazine in the 1980s. My own experience is that infinite baffle and open baffle can be very effective. Your measurements just confirm the fact that in-walls are more likely hurt by using an enclosure because they are almost always too small. I am somewhat surprised by the fact that even when the manufacturer supplies the box, they still use woofers that would benefit from a larger enclosure. Maybe they are counting on EQ to bring down the bass hump.
Amazing breakdown! I suspect the high Q drivers in small boxes is to impress right of the bat and make them easy to install, but yes its really a shame when price tag is at a few grand. Best breakdown I have ever seen for wall and ceiling speakers, thank you!
..... now..... amazing video..... could you please do one for in-ceiling speakers? :) They are a lot smaller, so maybe they work out a bit better. I have no idea.
Thanks for doing this Erin, I can tell it was a ton of work! Do you have any thoughts about in-wall speakers in general vs floorstanders? Do you consider it a significant compromise to use in-walls, especially in terms of soundstaging, or do the benefits of infinite baffle make up for it? I have a perfect wall for in-walls, but not sure if I'd lament a loss in performance?
Excellent , excellent review. Enjoyed this presentation very much. No b--s. Curious, the M&K did you mount it with the tweeters on the side? Would it be better with tweeters on top? Cheers.
I am blown away by the in-depth review. It's funny I ended up here cuz I'm just looking for some front and rear speakers for my surround sound I already have a really nice set of speakers but I was thinking to go in wall and at this point I feel like I should just open up the enclosures of the speakers I have and build enclosures for in the wall I had no idea how expensive these things could get. Regardless of my budget problems thanks very much for your in-depth and honest review I learned a lot here
Thanks! I had planned to do that but when I moved, I had to take the set up down and didn’t have enough space for it to measure in wall speakers. There’s a possibility I might be able to with my new set up.
I have to say I really wish you could have included the Monoprice in-walls as I have there stand alone speakers and you reviewed for example the 365-C really well. If you can do an addendum at a later time for the Monoprice in-walls that would very much help me decide if i should do that for my next setup, or stay far away from them.
Hey Erin,did u notice that Perlisten is using ur results of In wall spkrs in their database to showcase how good it is? Read a Sound and vision article on Perlisten in walls where they have quoted ur work and theirs doesn't have all the negatives u quoted. Its a gr8 recognition of ur work 👍
Can't thank you enough for another well-explained informative video. It's so great to see how you make it more easily accessible for people to get better insight prior to buying speakers. Keep up the good works. Better days ahead.
Hi Erin, great video. Well done. Could you please make a second in-wall video? Maybe you can get the Monitor Audio C2M on your test rig. Greetings from Germany, Tim
Something might be wrong with your measurements, listening space or the baffle wall you made. I don't know about technical stuff and measurements but I tell you this; I have had B&W 7 series for over 5 years now. They sound amazing, wonderful, super pleasant and just very nice. My friends, coworkers, relatives and mere acquaintances - all who visited me over the years, love the sound of them. They have been great companions in my journey. I had been so pleased with B&W, that a year ago I went ahead and bought B&W CT8 series speakers for my theater. Its a 9.4.4 system. I tell you what; its jaw dropping; from the drop of feather, a whisper, a sigh, a breath to the rumbling of earthquakes, blades of helicopters, a gorilla thumping its chest and stampede of dinosaurs you FEEL AND HEAR every detail. My home theater sounds and feels better than the demo theater of my local dealers. I respect the effort and the time you took to do all the comparison and I don't know about other brands but B&W for me has been great; I must mention the obvious that speakers can sound bad or good depending on other equipment and the room as well. So that's very important by itself. I'm sorry to say, your results of B&W measurements are just not relevant to my case.
@@ErinsAudioCorner Given limitations of human brain that's possible. Also possible are these scenarios: your experiments are not properly controlled; may be your equipment is faulty; may be you're biased; may be you just didn't like my comment as it didn't agree with you.
Very satisfied with the Kef 3160, I’m using the 4100’s as my surrounds. Your research validates my AV guy recommendations. Thank you for your hard work.
@@bradlee2594 You would need to sit them in a false or cavity wall. Kef stipulate the optimum volume area they need to have so just take that into consideration when you fit them. You don’t need a box.
I see that a lot of these closed back speakers have a pretty good bump in the bass. Wouldn’t a lot of that be tamed in a typical home theater setup when these speakers would all typically be high-passed and used with a sub? Seems like the designers are planning on them not being used full range.
I understand why you might think that. However, this bump would make it even harder to integrate with a subwoofer due to the steep phase angle of the rolloff rate. And, once a crossover is implemented, the bump would still exist; it would just be lowered. But it wouldn't make it easier to align with a subwoofer.
can you do the in-ceiling stereo speakers it's ceiling-mounted ones though since some walls might be busy with well shelves and cabinets though. however some wall or floor mounted speakers might be there in the industrial room or possibly one in some garage. while the gym or aqua pool room gets the array speakers including stereo like ones too.
I am glad the KEF measure well, it’s interesting you didn’t spend as much time on KEF vs all the others! I love the fact that you call it as they are the most expensive speakers are so poorly designed!!
Perlisten audio S7i-lr has a back box like the focal 1000 in walls... Curious why they all add back boxes if the boxes are too small n causes poor freq response curves?
Hi, I'm building a home theater and I've been researching and working with 3 different companies on speaker options. Each have there favorite brand (Focal, Klipsch and one even split the brand with Revel and can't remember many). I really enjoyed your breakdown. Would you consider helping me further if I provide more specific details about the layout and speaker recommendations?
Thanks for doing the work to shed light on these speakers where otherwise little is known. Room correction would do wonders to flatten those massive bass bumps (done it with XT32), which in turn would also reduce the compression for speakers like the Focal. Fixing the other problems is of course not trivial.
One thing about Triad in-wall speakers, though you didn't review any, is that they elongate their in-wall sealed cabinets to make up some of the internal volume lost due to being thinner profile speakers than their in-room models. At least in the past I have heard little difference between their in-wall and equivalent in-room speakers. Better speaker manufacturers take what you've said about small in-wall enclosures to heart.
I know it’s about a year old but since I can get my hands on a set of millerkrkreisel that you tested for a descent price I wondered if mounting the speaker on its side ( tweeters on top) would solve the problem and give a more linear soundstage?
I don't know why but this video had news reporter vibes with each speaker being the next story. Very interesting results. Makes me wonder if these brands measure well with their boxed lineups of bookshelf/towers. I've heard that B&W typically have a BBC dip and that's their thing.
Those tweeters always feel like they're missing snap. They just don't sound dynamic when I hear them and tend to be dull, cool, and bright. I'm guessing it takes a really good one used right to sound good. But I haven't heard it.
@erinsaudiocorner, can you provide your opinion on what to insulate these speakers for. I have seen about 50/50 split on fiberglass vs rockwool. For the Kef, they have in their manual that fiberglass should be used. But the other speakers don't have a recommendation. Also, the other opinion is that rock wool is a better sound proofing insulation. Just curious of your thoughts on it.
I've had this question a few times and I have typically recommended talking to the manufacturer. The thing is, some insulation type materials can consume enough space and the density might be too high, resulting in a smaller box effect that would alter the lower frequency aspect of the speaker. I think rockwool might be too dense, for example. Maybe something like acousta-stuff with moderate stuffing in the wall. But, truthfully, I'd recommend talking to an *engineer* from the manufacturer and get their input there.
I was hoping you would say they're all awesome, so just get the cheap one. but what you discovered is what I expected - they all sort of suck . :( I really want to clean up my living room/home theater. In-walls behind a perforated screen would look awesome, but I don't think I'd be happy with the compromise on sound.
Hi there! thanks for such a huge review. I am thinking to change my surrounds back and if I have all KEF around would that be good idea to go with Revel W553L or better stay with KEF and go with CI4100QL ? I am little bit discouraged by those small 4" woofers (ci4100ql) so considering that mentioned REVEL. thank you
I have a set of Tantra 6 LCR, ported cast volcanic ash cabinets, dual 6” Seas Prestige woofers, 1” Seas Prestige tweeter in a d'appolito configuration. (upgraded crossover parts). Was a high end line made by Speakercraft which only lasted a couple of years, didn’t make it through the 2008 crash. There is also a model above, Tantra 8 LCR.
Interesting video. I loved it. There is hardly anyone talking about in-wall speakers in UA-cam.Should we make a box in the dry wall for hooking up the open back revels?
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25:28 This is just my opinion but I think that a narrow vertical directivity is not bad. Of course it depends on usage Is it stereo hi-fi speaker or part of a 6 speaker home cinema system? For stereo speaker I would prefer speaker with constant not to wide horizontal and vertical directivity. Vertical directivity should not be laser tight because you listen to music sitting down, standing up or even lying on a couch. 60-90° range for vertical seems ok to me. For horizontal dispersion I would go for 90-120°. The point is to minimize early reflection and energy directed towards the room. For home cinema I would prefer narrow vertical dispersion because audience is sitting down and wide horizontal dispersion 120-180°to cover all the audience. Combine that with acoustic treatment for home cinema room and you maximize direct sound vs reflected sound.
Could you test the DYNAUDIO inwalls please?
Erin just pantsed the entire industry for their lazy in wall engineering. And we thank you for that 👍
I am a MK SOUND dealer. The IW150s are very much a current product and retail for $2200. As a professional, you definitely have to make adjustments to frequency due to room variations. Good review. Glad you put so many brands up that are INVISIBLE to the average consumer.
The latest Monoprice THX in wall would be a contender!!
I have set this before and I will say it again myself and a lot of the older Reviewers from all different publications respect the hell out of you We love the fact that you are humble and extremely educated And do not look down on anybody Getting into the hobby or wanting to learn. Thank you so much for what you do buddy By far the most refreshing guy out there
Thanks, man! I appreciate you!
@@ErinsAudioCorner trust me we appreciate you!! No magic beans required lol 😉
This one is interesting because of how drastically different the speakers measure.
Erin, I can’t thank you enough for all of this!!! No one reviews in walls and I am glad the one that does is you! I love your honesty and how clearly you explain everything in a way that makes it easy to compare. You are helping a lot of us out here and I hope you continue this incredible work! Your channel is among my all time favorite!!
Dude. Honestly. You are invaluable to the audio community. You should have DOUBLE the subscribers of people like The A.
You tell things the way they are.
Your reviews potentially save people tons of money and can give them the right direction.
Keep up the kick ass work !
I used to frown upon in walls that didn’t have back boxes. That’s what we are taught. This is incredibly valuable information to have! And it’s not that they are bad they just must be designed and sized right. But that looks like it’s rare. I really expected more from many of these speakers. Many of them were high on my internet list. I’ve been regularly checking for this video. You knocked it out the park! Thanks again!
Yep, I thought the same thing. This review was really eye opening for me in this regard.
I do appreciate how much time and effort you put into all these tests and especially the listening evaluations. Interesting that price did not assure performance. Thank you for calling out bad ones.
I really need you to test the SCL-2.
Nice! I was puckering in my seat watching and waiting for hopeful positives about the performance of the Focal after having outfitted my entire theater and then my living room with the 1000 series and that IWLCR6 model specifically for all my mains. Kind of a bummer. Would have rather had glowing results. I see similar characteristics in my raw measurements. Anthem ARC in both rooms though does very well handling the speaker for Harman-esque custom curves with the AVM70 and the STR. I'm very pleased with my system and its integration nonetheless. We can still be friends, LOL. 😀
Yep. It all normally sounds good at the end of the day. I’m sure your rooms sound amazing
I'm betting the most expensive speaker is the best. That's how good reviewers choose the best. No need to listen or measure.
🤣
Dammit. I could’ve saved myself a lot of time if I had known that.
When they say - "It's good for the price range", without even giving you a real shortcoming, I know I've wasted my time with that review.
I'm an on wall/ceiling guy (JBL 9300) and before I went that way I so wanted in walls as they are much more room friendly. But also as a 2 channel box speaker guy I could never convince myself that you could get the same performance from in walls. Dollars for dollars aside.
Huge amount of work you have done here and am hugely grateful. Subscribed.
Erin, just want to say I’m eternally grateful for the work you do man. It’s highly appreciated. You’re an awesome guy. Your humble attitude rocks mister. Loving your content. You seem like a super great guy. Very relatable and genuine. It’s something very special indeed. Wish you all the best even through the tougher times.
Awwww shucks. ☺️
No one can do in walls/in ceilings like Erin. Great job!
Thanks for doing this Erin, the results were super enlightening. If possible one day it would be awesome if you could review some of the Triad inwall speakers. They seem
to be super popular on AVS and I have always wondered how they would fair on the KLIPPEL. It goes without saying but you are the man!
Hopefully reviews like this will make the manufacturers step up their game rather than their prices. Great video
I had high hopes for the Focal 1000. Since you are saying you think the enclosure might be a limiting factor, I really now wonder how the much less expensive Focal 300 series with the flax drivers would compare to the Focal 1000 series. Since those are open backed, there is an opportunity for the user to build their own, larger back box to maybe help with some of the resonances. It would be interesting to see what spending almost 3 times as much money really gets you.
Yeah real shame, big fan of Beryllium tweeters, but seems like they just wasted the amazing drivers from their tower speakers in those.
Just amazing! Excellent work and the community really appreciates what you do. You had the 3 that were on my short list so now deciding time of KEF vs JBL. Again,I can’t said enough thank you sir!!!!!!
Hi with the miller and kreisel,these speakers are supposed to be paired with a subwoofer, they are not really designed to create low frequencies ,I use the s150 cabinet type and I believe these s150 are all about detail, that’s why film makers use them 🤷♂️🤔
I always wondered what would happen if you put a bookshelf speaker in wall? Could put some foam around it with some type of custom mount case for the 2inch that will stick out the wall. An Arendal 19.. would be interesting to see, Since those in wall already cost a fortune
I heard the Flagship Focal inwalls along with the matching inwall subs at Axpona 2022. While I was initially surprised with the dynamics and sheer volume output capabilities, they did sound boomy too. Very boomy. I’m shocked at this price point they would sound that bad.
Love the honesty. Guys like thomas & stereo & cheapaudioman and many more don't even say the name of brand which sounded bad for eg at a show or heard at their friends house[thomas & stereo]. Thank you erin for keeping it real. Love your honesty.
Yeah too many reviewers shy away from handing out negative reviews.
But those are so important for informing consumers which products to avoid, so they can find better products.
Very happy to see that Erin is honestly recommending against MartinLogan, Focal and B&W.
I think most companies are just reusing drivers from their bookshelf and tower speakers to save money. Sad but common, they won't spend any of their profit margin on a slightly better driver or crossover.
Wow! There are a lot of surprises about in-wall speakers, bad ones for the most part! You point very expertedly all the pitfalls and caveats of putting ready-made speakers without proper analysis of the sound characteristics of each design. At the price point (mostly over 1000$ each), I was expecting a more balance sound and a much better dispersion. Thanks for sheding some light on a huge portion of the audiophile spectrum we never hear about!
This type of information simply doesn’t exist anywhere else. Thanks for the effort you put in!
Great review as usual Erin! At the end of the day, it seems like the results overall are not very surprising. In walls will never be the same quality as a speaker with a defined enclosure based on its characteristics. However it's interesting that the two budget models do as well as they do while all the expensive ones turned out to be pretty crappy except for the KEF.
Finally some measurements of these so called highend speakers. Awesome work 👍.
Eeeesh, I makes me scared to consider in-walls for the next iteration of my HT build. Hopefully we can find a diamond in the rough when looking at some more budget friendly options.
Get on-wall speakers.
Stage detail of Miller Kreisel is just on another level. Maybe SNR, or DB senistivity measures different from others, but in reality when put together you get another dimension in sound from MK. I was watching one scene many times for testing and only after i put MK SUR55 and LCR950 i realised that this scene has a rain sound, then looked closeley and here you go there was a rain outside the window in the scene which i never seen before after watching it 100 times, numbers do not tell full sotry, but real sound does. Maybe thats why MK is mostly used in Atmos studios.
Nice review Erin! I cannot believe how poorly integrated those more expensive designs were. The responses were unacceptable for that price, and seemingly poorly executed crossovers. Very surprised and now more informed!
Erin, super interesting video. Thank you for taking the time and energy to educate us. Just out of curiosity, any interest or plan to test any of the Monolith THX in walls? Would be interesting to see how they stack up against the much more expensive models you tested here.
Came here to say this as well! The LCR THX and the 275 versions are very appealing. I'm interested to see the horizontal dispersion of the LCR setup as well.
I came here to say this also and he has tested MonoPrice before I see.
@@runany1 yea, they're supposed to send me some when they come back in stock.
If they are anything like their subwoofers, they will be fantastic! I got the 12" THX, and couldn't be happier.
great I am to trying to pull the trigger on the thx monolith in walls
Thanks again to everyone who loaned speakers to Erin to make this test and review possible!
Disappointed to see these results on a few of the speakers that were on my short list. Erin, when are you doing the Triad Speakers?
I believe they are en route.
Thank you for this. For more than a decade I keep telling people about the “crapiness” of in walls. Now I just need to point them to your direction.
Would love to see some triad speakers reviewed/measured if you can get your hands on some. Seems they are a favorite of custom installers but I've yet to see any data... Makes you wonder if the CI guys know something we don't or maybe the margins are just that good!
Erin thank you so much for this test! I have 5xJBL SCL-6, 4xJBL SCL-7, and 4xRevel 783s coming in this Friday. I was really splitting hairs if I should have gone with KEF over JBL and it looks like it would have been a win either way. I'm also really surprised that OEM backer boxes were a detriment, as the popular opinion is the exact opposite with little scientific evidence to back that opinion up. Really love this content as buying in-walls is often a guessing game for most people.
Why not completely timbre match the set up with SCL-8’s ?
You made a great choice
@@burningsti Good question! My ceiling slopes upward from the screen position towards the back of the room, so it made having an angled Atmos speaker difficult to position at the listening area. After doing some research I had found Revel was often used for Atmos in tandem with JBL Synthesis bed layer when mixing audio for Blu-ray. I'll reply to this thread if it sounds drastically different when sound moves from the bed layer to the Atmos.
@@tristanstoker233 How is your system? Wanted to check in to see how you like it? I'm hoping to get one too!
@@angussmall So I just started doing sound tests this week and I love it. I'm running an Anthem MRX1140 and powering the base 7 channels with a Monolith 7x. I ended up having a toed in baffle wall built for the left and right so I am no longer going to use front wides. Even if I had double the budget I would still go with the same JBL Synthesis speakers. My room is pretty much finished aside from still being on the waitlist for an Epson LS12000/Sony 5000. Its painful testing a system I'm so happy with on an old 27inch monitor =p.
@@tristanstoker233 🤣🤣 Wow! I can imagine. That’s awesome to hear. What are your room dimensions? Looks like you will have one amazing setup! Glad it’s working out!
I can hardly express how much audio scene owes to this whole new gen of objecti-philes like Erin or Amir or some others. It not easy to admit how we were fooled by industry and review "authorities" for decades. Most stuff is just plain physics. Which is dry matter. While an army of subjectivists has the full dictionary plus rosey poetry to sell stuff. Today I understand much better why some statements and claims always felt strange.
Great video. I have the Revel W990's for my LCR, W893's for the sides and C783's for the atmos. Amazing sound for both movies and music. I have an Anthem 1140X with a Krell Amp to drive the LCR's. I was able to do a blind test of 6 different brands at the installers location and the Revel's came out on top. Everyone's ears are different and I would recommend, if at all possible, to do a blind test. You might be surprised as to what you like when you don't know the brand you're listening to. Love the Revels. Oh, and if you can afford it, JL Audio's inwall subs are amazing.
I love my Anthem 1140 MRX too, but I always liked Focal sound, so my front is Sopra 3, which is connected to Pass Labs XA30.8 with xp-12 preamp. At the rear are my first Focal speakers, Electra 1008be, then Sopra centre. I just bought 4x 1000series ICW6 to complete atmos. I'm planning to build diy surround speakers with two more ICW6.
I'm addicted to beryllium as you can tell😄, so it will be all around me.
For sub, I have Rel 812S and I plan to buy a second one mainly to complete my stereo.
My priority was always good stereo system, so home cinema was really an afterthought, but now I definitely appreciate surround more.
Learned a good bit, as I never see any reviews/data for in-walls.
Thanks for doing this Erin. Appreciate it!
Great video. The Focal’s surprised me a bit since I’ve seen so much positive reactions to them online. People seem to covet those.
Good job Erin. I listen to the AV Rant podcast, and the guys on there are very knowledgeable generally but they are repeatedly insistent that in-wall speakers need an enclosure. They seem to think that a speaker without an enclosure is automatically going to be inferior and speakers just need an enclosure to sound good, even if you have to do your own DIY box in the wall. That has always struck me as false. I have been following speaker design since a subscription to Speaker Builder magazine in the 1980s. My own experience is that infinite baffle and open baffle can be very effective. Your measurements just confirm the fact that in-walls are more likely hurt by using an enclosure because they are almost always too small. I am somewhat surprised by the fact that even when the manufacturer supplies the box, they still use woofers that would benefit from a larger enclosure. Maybe they are counting on EQ to bring down the bass hump.
Erin - you did it again. Very interesting choice of in walls and relevant for today’s home theater’s where WAF rating is important
Amazing breakdown! I suspect the high Q drivers in small boxes is to impress right of the bat and make them easy to install, but yes its really a shame when price tag is at a few grand. Best breakdown I have ever seen for wall and ceiling speakers, thank you!
Wonder if the cheaper alternatives from KEF also perform reasonably well?
..... now..... amazing video..... could you please do one for in-ceiling speakers? :) They are a lot smaller, so maybe they work out a bit better. I have no idea.
Thanks for doing this Erin, I can tell it was a ton of work! Do you have any thoughts about in-wall speakers in general vs floorstanders? Do you consider it a significant compromise to use in-walls, especially in terms of soundstaging, or do the benefits of infinite baffle make up for it? I have a perfect wall for in-walls, but not sure if I'd lament a loss in performance?
What is your honest opinion on the Klipsch THX in-wall range?
Excellent , excellent review. Enjoyed this presentation very much. No b--s. Curious, the M&K did you mount it with the tweeters on the side? Would it be better with tweeters on top? Cheers.
I am blown away by the in-depth review. It's funny I ended up here cuz I'm just looking for some front and rear speakers for my surround sound I already have a really nice set of speakers but I was thinking to go in wall and at this point I feel like I should just open up the enclosures of the speakers I have and build enclosures for in the wall I had no idea how expensive these things could get. Regardless of my budget problems thanks very much for your in-depth and honest review I learned a lot here
Glad I could help!
Great detailed review! Any chance on a more budget friendly or midrange lineup?
Thanks! I had planned to do that but when I moved, I had to take the set up down and didn’t have enough space for it to measure in wall speakers. There’s a possibility I might be able to with my new set up.
I have to say I really wish you could have included the Monoprice in-walls as I have there stand alone speakers and you reviewed for example the 365-C really well. If you can do an addendum at a later time for the Monoprice in-walls that would very much help me decide if i should do that for my next setup, or stay far away from them.
Hey Erin,did u notice that Perlisten is using ur results of In wall spkrs in their database to showcase how good it is? Read a Sound and vision article on Perlisten in walls where they have quoted ur work and theirs doesn't have all the negatives u quoted. Its a gr8 recognition of ur work 👍
I wasn't aware of that, but that's really cool! I'll see if I can find it. Thanks for the heads up!
Article is on Audiohilics not S&V..
Thanks for the great review and info. I’ve been looking at the KEF for a while and there’s very little info.
would also love to see a similar analysis of the Theory Audio speakers, as these seem to be making a lot of waves of late...
Can't thank you enough for another well-explained informative video. It's so great to see how you make it more easily accessible for people to get better insight prior to buying speakers. Keep up the good works. Better days ahead.
Hi Erin,
great video. Well done. Could you please make a second in-wall video? Maybe you can get the Monitor Audio C2M on your test rig. Greetings from Germany, Tim
Something might be wrong with your measurements, listening space or the baffle wall you made. I don't know about technical stuff and measurements but I tell you this; I have had B&W 7 series for over 5 years now. They sound amazing, wonderful, super pleasant and just very nice. My friends, coworkers, relatives and mere acquaintances - all who visited me over the years, love the sound of them. They have been great companions in my journey. I had been so pleased with B&W, that a year ago I went ahead and bought B&W CT8 series speakers for my theater. Its a 9.4.4 system. I tell you what; its jaw dropping; from the drop of feather, a whisper, a sigh, a breath to the rumbling of earthquakes, blades of helicopters, a gorilla thumping its chest and stampede of dinosaurs you FEEL AND HEAR every detail. My home theater sounds and feels better than the demo theater of my local dealers. I respect the effort and the time you took to do all the comparison and I don't know about other brands but B&W for me has been great; I must mention the obvious that speakers can sound bad or good depending on other equipment and the room as well. So that's very important by itself. I'm sorry to say, your results of B&W measurements are just not relevant to my case.
Or maybe you’re biased? 🤷♂️
@@ErinsAudioCorner Given limitations of human brain that's possible. Also possible are these scenarios: your experiments are not properly controlled; may be your equipment is faulty; may be you're biased; may be you just didn't like my comment as it didn't agree with you.
Erin don't you think you were a tiny bit harsh on some of your compression comments? I mean +/- 1dB on 102 dB is nothing to scoff at.
Feeling good being a Kef owner right now!
Would love to see Paradigm and Triad in walls next. Great video!
Yeah, got to at least have the Triad's if he's doing upper end.
Triad Golds on currently en route. Hopefully they'll fit on my measurement rig.
Speakercraft should be in the test, Origin Acoustics too
Do they manufactures ever contact you to try and explain what’s going on with their speakers?
I didn’t have time to watch the whole video but I did drop a follow. Was there any mention of what speakers are recommended?
Love this video, although it would REALLY benefit from the addition of chapters so viewers can jump to the section specific to a given speaker
You are the best speaker reviewer I ever heard on UA-cam you know your stuff thanks great review
Very satisfied with the Kef 3160, I’m using the 4100’s as my surrounds. Your research validates my AV guy recommendations. Thank you for your hard work.
I'm considering the 3160's. Do you have them biamped? Are you using them strictly for home theater or are they double duty for 2 channel?
@@Trrs81 no they aren’t bi-amped. Mostly for HT.
@@rinaldosloan8291 are you enjoying them? What did you run before them?
Did you install with or without a DIY back box? Any thoughts regarding this?
@@bradlee2594 You would need to sit them in a false or cavity wall. Kef stipulate the optimum volume area they need to have so just take that into consideration when you fit them. You don’t need a box.
What about the Dynaudio Studio modular system?
Klipsch rf7iii or focal aria evo x which one is better for dedicated home theatre
Great work buddy but what about Klipsch In-Wall THX Series ? Shouldn't you include them on your review ?
If you wanna send me some to test then sure. These all came from owners/dealers who offered them up. Otherwise, maybe the next round. 👍
I see that a lot of these closed back speakers have a pretty good bump in the bass. Wouldn’t a lot of that be tamed in a typical home theater setup when these speakers would all typically be high-passed and used with a sub? Seems like the designers are planning on them not being used full range.
I understand why you might think that. However, this bump would make it even harder to integrate with a subwoofer due to the steep phase angle of the rolloff rate. And, once a crossover is implemented, the bump would still exist; it would just be lowered. But it wouldn't make it easier to align with a subwoofer.
can you do the in-ceiling stereo speakers it's ceiling-mounted ones though since some walls might be busy with well shelves and cabinets though.
however some wall or floor mounted speakers might be there in the industrial room or possibly one in some garage. while the gym or aqua pool room gets the array speakers including stereo like ones too.
I am glad the KEF measure well, it’s interesting you didn’t spend as much time on KEF vs all the others!
I love the fact that you call it as they are the most expensive speakers are so poorly designed!!
Perlisten audio S7i-lr has a back box like the focal 1000 in walls... Curious why they all add back boxes if the boxes are too small n causes poor freq response curves?
I’ll never use an in wall speaker, but that being said I thoroughly enjoyed this video! Keep killing it homie
Thanks, man!
Hi, I'm building a home theater and I've been researching and working with 3 different companies on speaker options. Each have there favorite brand (Focal, Klipsch and one even split the brand with Revel and can't remember many). I really enjoyed your breakdown. Would you consider helping me further if I provide more specific details about the layout and speaker recommendations?
Which in wall speakers helps you feel the bullets flying at you?
You do remarkable work… I don’t think I’ve seen your equal on UA-cam. 👏👏👏
Can you do in ceiling speakers sir?
That side by side design… generally u get comb filtering which will generally cancel out certain freqs.
Thanks for doing the work to shed light on these speakers where otherwise little is known. Room correction would do wonders to flatten those massive bass bumps (done it with XT32), which in turn would also reduce the compression for speakers like the Focal. Fixing the other problems is of course not trivial.
One thing about Triad in-wall speakers, though you didn't review any, is that they elongate their in-wall sealed cabinets to make up some of the internal volume lost due to being thinner profile speakers than their in-room models. At least in the past I have heard little difference between their in-wall and equivalent in-room speakers. Better speaker manufacturers take what you've said about small in-wall enclosures to heart.
Can you add RBH speakers in your future comparisons?
For the holes in the frequency range, wouldn't running DIRAC or some other live room correction system fix that?
I know it’s about a year old but since I can get my hands on a set of millerkrkreisel that you tested for a descent price I wondered if mounting the speaker on its side ( tweeters on top) would solve the problem and give a more linear soundstage?
at what point the wall (stiffness) may impact the speaker? raisonnante, cleaner sound?
I don't know why but this video had news reporter vibes with each speaker being the next story. Very interesting results. Makes me wonder if these brands measure well with their boxed lineups of bookshelf/towers. I've heard that B&W typically have a BBC dip and that's their thing.
Those tweeters always feel like they're missing snap. They just don't sound dynamic when I hear them and tend to be dull, cool, and bright. I'm guessing it takes a really good one used right to sound good. But I haven't heard it.
Kef Ci3160RL-THX vs JBL Synthesis SCL-6 ??? For home theater use.
Hi Erin, what do you think of
kef CI4100ql vs MartinLogan motion series Ci
For the front L and R channels?
Any recommendations?😮
@erinsaudiocorner, can you provide your opinion on what to insulate these speakers for. I have seen about 50/50 split on fiberglass vs rockwool. For the Kef, they have in their manual that fiberglass should be used. But the other speakers don't have a recommendation. Also, the other opinion is that rock wool is a better sound proofing insulation. Just curious of your thoughts on it.
I've had this question a few times and I have typically recommended talking to the manufacturer. The thing is, some insulation type materials can consume enough space and the density might be too high, resulting in a smaller box effect that would alter the lower frequency aspect of the speaker. I think rockwool might be too dense, for example. Maybe something like acousta-stuff with moderate stuffing in the wall. But, truthfully, I'd recommend talking to an *engineer* from the manufacturer and get their input there.
I was hoping you would say they're all awesome, so just get the cheap one. but what you discovered is what I expected - they all sort of suck . :( I really want to clean up my living room/home theater. In-walls behind a perforated screen would look awesome, but I don't think I'd be happy with the compromise on sound.
For In-Wall speakers, Speakercraft has been a leader and OEM for many other companies for a long time
I would also check out Origin Acoustics !
Hi there! thanks for such a huge review. I am thinking to change my surrounds back and if I have all KEF around would that be good idea to go with Revel W553L or better stay with KEF and go with CI4100QL ? I am little bit discouraged by those small 4" woofers (ci4100ql) so considering that mentioned REVEL.
thank you
THX certification that why the KEF did so well. Lot of work to get that certification. That's why I can't wait for the monolith speaker review
I have a set of Tantra 6 LCR, ported cast volcanic ash cabinets, dual 6” Seas Prestige woofers, 1” Seas Prestige tweeter in a d'appolito configuration. (upgraded crossover parts). Was a high end line made by Speakercraft which only lasted a couple of years, didn’t make it through the 2008 crash. There is also a model above, Tantra 8 LCR.
Are you still using the Tantras? What do think of them?
@@SuperChevyNova69 yes, they’re great
Interesting video. I loved it. There is hardly anyone talking about in-wall speakers in UA-cam.Should we make a box in the dry wall for hooking up the open back revels?
Such an honest review on a wide variety of in-wall speakers. I hope you're able to review the GoldenEar Invisa Signature Point Source one day.
Please share what is your primary processor and amp?
I hope Erin reviews the Perlisten S5i-LR in-wall speakers.
In-wall speakers have many inherent drawbacks due to limited cabinet size. The key is to EQ! Or do what I did and get good looking floor standers