Is Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Actually a Rip Off of Babylon 5?
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- Опубліковано 20 жов 2020
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B5 was probably one of the best SciFi shows I've watched. It's so nice when a writer has a fucking END to the story.
They did a hasty wrap-up of a lot of plot threads in season 4 when they thought they were gonna get cancelled, but then they kept going. Show so nice it ended twice.
@@slothfulcobra and yet the show ended early. The Psy-war never got a real ending as well as the story arc with the heirs of the Shadows and the Centauri. To my knowledge there were two more seasons planned originally but there were serious "creative problems" between cast and writer.
But thats just a vague memory.
@@oldoneeye7516 I don't believe you have it right. I remember the show always being planned for five seasons. Like was said earlier, most of the main plotlines were tied up in the 4th season because the show would most likely get cancelled. The leftover story arcs came from spinoff possibilities that never happened or were cut short (Crusade).
And having an end right from the start.
Game of Thrones would like to know your location
Delenn: Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else.
Capt. Drake: [pees pants]
Indeed! Best line ever - If you value your lives be somewhere else. ;p
Ah one of my favorite lines....I get goosebumps every time.
Much better than fortune favors the bold.
I think the delivery made that line what it is. The whole "Out of my way, bug, lest I swat you" disdain. Priceless! Where's my MasterCard? Bottle some of that for me so I can buy it! X-D
This and Delenn's rage at the grey council are my favourite bits to rewatch.
I just love the way DS9 developed the Ferengi from the terrible representation in Next Generation to fully fleshed out characters in DS9. The way it dealt with Nag’s PTSD a great part of that development.
100%
nag?
*Nog (but otherwise correct.)
DS9 did develop the Ferengi into a species that had depth.
Old trek had a way of masterfully fleshing out races. Klingons in TNG, Cardassians and Ferrengi in DS9, Borgs (love or hate them) in Voyager, Andorians and Vulcans in Enterprise.
Too bad current SciFi show can't even flesh their own franchise well enough for it to make sense... Let alone developping interesting races / characters.
“Babylon 5! You managed to stream Babylon 5 from the home world?!”
“Actually, this is not Babylon 5.”
“But the characters, the plot!”
“It is a CBS show, called Deep Space 9. It’s a strange thing, but every sentient species has a version of this Deep Space 9. One of those great universal mysteries that which cannot be explained, or which you’d go quite mad to learn the truth.”
Breen!
Ah, gin n tonics
Swedish meatballs...
Nice deep cut! I remember that scene every time I visit the cafeteria at an Ikea!
Now I want some meatballs...
I've never understood how anyone can seriously believe that DS9 ripped off B5 when Benny Russell wrote the first DS9 stories in 1953 and J Michael Straczynski wasn't even born until 1954
K-7
Very funny......ha.
So they rip off Benny Russell
So in 1989 B5 straczynski ripped off 1953 Russell, than 1992 DS9 ripped off 1989 Straczynski... hmmmm... even if that the case straczynski seems more like a recycler of old ideas where as DS9 is straight up copyright violation
I'm laughing not only at people that don't get the joke, but also at what a massive nerd I am for how I instantly got it lol 🤓
Counterpoint: DS9 doesn't have Londo and G'Kar. The story arcs those two go through are one of the core reasons I keep coming back to B5.
Yes, DS9 also doesn't have non-humanoid looking species, so it can't be a ripp-off ^^
But seriously, you are right. Beside the ripped off parts, B5 offers much better content in between the cracks of the original B5 bible.
Also, Ivanova. I don't need to say anything else.
I'd argue that Gul Dukat and Major Kira have the literal oppressor vs subject relationship, but Dukat and Sisko have the broader frenemy relationship. Until the very end when Dukat went ham (full Cartagia) there was a wary sort of respect between them.
@lazytyrant the character was split among a couple of symmetric pairs. Dukat and Kira (enemy). Damar and Kira (ally). Odo and Quark (comedic frenemies).
lean B5, but DS9 have Garak, and Garak is one of the best minor TV characters of all-time.
Honestly, I wish there were more shows as similar to Babylon 5 and Deep Space Nine as they are to each other. I want more space station political drama in my life
Have you heard of this little show called Battlestar Galactica??
You don't get enough of it in the real lif?
Cheers is a low tech version.
With a yellow evil alien bent on conquering the Alpha Quadrant perhaps? 😬😬🥴🥴😒😒😒
Defiance is the only one that comes to mind in recent years. It kinda failed at it, but it tried, and was cancelled just when it started to get things right.
Good take. "Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth."
Huh. I always thought it was a three sided coin.
@@Lhorez nope its Sword, by chance rewatched that very episode last night.
@@Lhorez It's a sword because the edges can cut. Meaning they are dangerous. It carries the metaphor a bit further :)
I've remembered that metaphor since the first time I saw it. And there are not many things from TV shows that I've kept with me after only one viewing from around 25 years ago!
I love the Vorlons, for their pithy comments. My favourite is... _'It's too late for the pebbles to vote, once the avalanche has begun.'_
B5 is one of the first and best examples of what you can make when you have a very good idea of what the story is before you even film the first episode; rather than make it up as you go along. There are plot points in the first season that don't get fully realised until the last few seasons and I loved it for that; it should be watched as a whole.
If you believe that Lucas had all 9 movies planned before making New Hope (I know that is a claim that exists but unsure how true it is) that may be a counter example. Or you could say it is different for TV vs movies or that decades long time gaps change things or so on. Or that Star Wars was just not as well executed, even if having the whole thing planned out from the beginning is good.
I have often wondered how much any given series of TV or books or movies or so on had planned from the start.
Another big reason for this is that JMS wrote the vast majority of the episodes (92 of 110, including all of the 3rd and 4th seasons, which gave B5 a lot more cohesion than other SciFi shows.
@@wafelsen No one believes that. Most don't even think he had Empire Strikes Back planned by the time New Hope was finished and he certainly didn't know what was in the first three. The numbering thing was purely a marketing ploy to make people talk about what happened to the first 3 movies and a device that allowed him to not bother with telling more origin story for the characters.
B5 did make space combat real. The Starfury was not atmospheric. It did turn on a dime (but used actual thrusters) and stopped then went on the new direction. some say that te StarFury is still the best Space fighter. Even the pilot stood (in order to withstand the g-forces).
@@wafelsen I can believe that he had a rough trilogy sketched out, and then decided that the first third of the middle part was enough for a movie, but not that he had more than a rough idea even of the rest of the original trilogy, let alone the prequels - and the sequel "trilogy" we got definitely isn't something he had planned back then.
Star Trek is my favorite franchise, but Babylon 5 is my favorite show.
exactly
I love me some trek, but bab5 rules.
Same.
Just imagine an alternate reality where Bab5 generated a continuous universe of other shows.
@@sarahgraves6759 it alnost did, but Crusade got cancelled way too soon.
The bit about Peter Jurasik at a party being told "our show came from your show", JMS already mentioned that story in the 90's as well. It doesn't disagree with his other comments at all, basically what he is saying is, in his opinion Paramount execs steered the show in a certain direction, and the DS9 staff didn't find out until when it was too late, when both shows were coming out, what the similarities were, and it was undeniable. So of course the DS9 staff were not idiots and when they finally saw B5, they knew what had happened.
The part you didn't discuss much, were the behind-the-scenes politics. When JMS pitched B5 to Paramount execs, their attitude was basically "we've already got a sci-fi space show, we don't need yours". When JMS finally sold B5 to WB much later, and there were press releases about this coming TV show, that's when the Paramount execs went into action. Their attitude seemed to be "we've got the best and biggest sci-fi TV franchise, we don't want rivals on our turf". Their goal from that point on was to kill B5 before it even made it to air, and they very nearly succeeded.
The DS9 pilot and series were *rushed* into production, leading it to being the most expensive TV pilot made at that time IIRC, mostly because of the rushed schedule. The goal: to make it to air before B5. And they made it, by over a month. B5 aired it's pilot movie, but then it took them a year more to get the first season going. By that time DS9 was already up and running, and this was by design. There was plenty of dirty politics going on at the exec level (not by the producers of DS9, but by the Paramount execs who wanted to kill B5). TV stations across the US were told, if you air B5, you won't get DS9. TV directors were told, if you work on B5, Star Trek won't hire you. Things like that were going on.
And of course, the Paramount execs were not idiots, they knew JMS would see and hear how they ripped off his show, and they were HOPING he would sue them. What would be the end result of that? Years of litigation, which would most likely keep B5 off the air, which was their goal. JMS saw the trap, just had to bite the bullet, ignore it all, and focus on getting the show to air despite the efforts of others to kill it. And he did make it in the end.
It absolutely does contradict his earlier stance, JMS said he didnt think the producers and writers knew about the details of B5. So a story where everyone on DS9s team "knew" it was derived from B5 is a complete contradiction, unless you suppose that all the actors and crew of DS9 knew but somehow the writers didnt....
No, his point being specifically that DS9 producers didn't have B5 info *while producing the pilot* (and first season) of DS9. But of course once DS9 pilot aired, and then B5 pilot aired right after, the similarities were there for all to see. If they were not aware before then, they were aware after. Like I said above, DS9 staff not being idiots, once they saw all the similarities between the shows, they realized what had taken place. "Our show came from your show." Thus, they were sending good wishes to B5, there was no bad blood between the staffs of the shows.
@@DrewLSsix Or JMS didn't want to get sued by Paramount people looking to embroil him in legal woes to kill his show or possible JMS himself. Writers often leave enough on the table for people to piece things together. The video's premise can be answered with one word: YES.
"TV directors were told, if you work on B5, Star Trek won't hire you"
Both Michael Vejar and Jesús Treviño were veteran directors who did multiple B5 episodes before getting to do DS9 and Voyager episodes. Vejar shifted between both franchises regularly.
@@dudujencarelli DS9 when at war with B5 intentionally poached Robert Foxworth. He breached his contract with B5 for the big money offer. I have no doubt Star Tre execs likely told him, they would protect him if he went through with it.
DS9 I see ripped off B5 initially, but it eventually veered off on their own. It was notable DS9 became what Star Trek was known for, an episodic series.
I absolutely loved how deep the "moon-faced assassin of joy" became.
Also, Whilst i love DS9, Babylon 5 is in a league entirely on its own. Yes, it was low budget and a bit janky, but it was way ahead of its time in terms of scope and its more like a book than a tv show. :D + Londo and G'kar = best double act ever.
While the computer graphics of B5 were cutting edge at the time, they're incredibly pixelated now. But the beauty of it being that since ALL the external [space] footage being CGI, they can be separately rerendered & meshed with the internal footage, & all will be well again. Yes, it won't be 4k levels of goodness, but they could easily bring B5 up to at least DVD levels of fineness [the pixelation not being visible in the original 380i TV screen] to give the show greater "legs."
@@nunyabidniz2868 I wish!
You know what, I just count my blessings and appreciate how the makeup/prosthetic work on Babylon 5 actually holds up. They spent their production budget wisely if you ask me.
The curious thing about B5 vs. DS9 was that DS9 was all brown & grey, and B5 was rather colorful. The spaceflight physics of B5 were more realistic and close to Newtonian (very close for humans, less so for advanced species with technology that's close to magic _IN SPACE_ ).
When it comes to _games,_ the ones with more claims of realism are usually the dull ones, and the fast-paced action games are more colorful.
@@nunyabidniz2868 the original CGI was 480p, so it was DVD quality, but in 4:3 aspect ratio. For the DVD's they cropped the CGI to 16:9, so they lost a huge chunk of the image and didn't even use optimal ways to do the cropping so it's all blurry, that's why the CGI on the DVD's look so bad. It looks much worse than it did in the 90's on TV. The special edition of the B5 pilot The Gathering was the only episode released in 4:3 on DVD, and on that release you can see how good the CGI would have looked if the whole series had been released in 4:3. As for remaking the CGI, yes it's possible for the 100% CGI shots but there is a HUGE amount of shots in the show that are composites of live action and CGI, which could not be easily remade or enhanced, so there would be constant issues with switching quality between shots.
I'm glad I got here before the other Babylon 5 fans who can get kind of toxic about this point. I'm a HUGE Babylon 5 fan and a HUGE DS9 and Star Trek fan. IT'S OK TO BE BOTH.
Exactly.
Though G'Kar > Worf :P
Truth. I'm just a sucker for good sci-fi!
Toxic about which point exactly? The point of the video is about whether one show "ripped off" (clickbait, duh) another, now whether one show is better then the other. This is what you've brought up. So who's toxic here? :)
I very much enjoyed both shows, particularly as both ran at the same time in Germany. In the Long run i enjoyed B5 more, but that is strictly due to chemistry between the actors, and the gripping plot arcs. Visually DS9 was more appealing, but they also had a lot more money. It was a great time to be young and a science fiction fan.
Agreed, regardless of how they got started, both shows developed in distinctly different directions and both are amazing works.
B5 had a problem all during its run. I constantly recommended it to people who literally could not wrap their heads around the idea this was NOT some version of STAR TREK. Which is a shame. It was a milestone in television, especially science fiction. The cancellation of its sequel series CRUSADE still gnaws at me, much as the cancellation of FIREFLY. But the truth is, a weakness (or sorts) in jms's wonderful fictional universe is how that five year arc was so self-contained amid a fantastically detailed universe that finding another story in it frankly seems tricky. After an epic like that, where do you go?
You explore the secrets of the Technomages. And the fate of the Drakh - people whose gods literally abandoned them, and then their homeworld was destroyed, leaving them with arguably the most advanced technology of anyone remaining in the galaxy (the arguable part is the White Star Fleet and the Excalibur) but no home and no purpose - except revenge. What do you do with people like that?
I watched an interview with JMS where he said that he regrets trying to keep it going. He did it because it felt safe but his story was done and in some ways tarnished it. It was interesting.
Personally, I take both.
And both Kira - normal and mirror verse.
Although, Ivanova... Ah, Ivanova.
(Alas, I plenty know that THEY would not take ME 😔)
Ivanova is God
I’m all about Lyta.
Aloof mind reading chicks get me every time.
Ivanova is the Reincarnation of Death
Love Kira but Ivanova is the right hand of vengeance she is death incarnate sent by god. Still one my favorite moments of b5
Honestly, the most controversial part of this episode is your views on LOTR. For shame!
To be fair, I can totally understand how, in a world where fantasy largely just turns Tolkien's inventiveness into tropes, some people might not think LotR is anything special
The primary points of enjoyment of LotR for most is in the worldbuilding and deep lore, and we know how Steve feels about those parts... ;) It doesn't surprise me that he finds less to enjoy personally in it.
“3 movies of people walking to a fuckin’ volcano.”
Randall Graves
Yeah, I almost unliked after hearing that - freak ! :D
@@DoctorProph3t Hah! LOL!
I still find it a bit suspicious how the dominion war arc in DS9 started when the shadow war was in full swing in B5. Also the fact that the Defiant and the White Star showed up around the same time. From what I’ve read B5 was planned from the beginning while DS9 was written more on a season by season basis so I can imagine a writer’s room maybe running low on ideas for stories set on a space station looking at what the other space station show was doing for inspiration on how to keep the show fresh.
They didn’t just look. The same people making DS9 wete pitched B5 first and given a copy of the show bible. It would honestly be more suspect if the DS9 staff didn’t use a resource left on their desk
They might very well have. That doesn't make it a problem. Like, the idea of having a major war happen is hardly a super original or specific idea invented by B5. What matters is specific details and execution
Honestly, if you haven't seen B5 in 20ish years, I strongly suggest you give it another watch (at least the first 4 seasons). There are SOOO many details in that show. I watched it again a couple years ago and right in season one, there's a brief scene of Garibaldi reading a newspaper and you can see one of the articles is talking about discussions regarding the formation of a group that will be called "Night Watch". The article is only up briefly. If you're watching the show for the first time, you'd totally glance over it because the reading of the paper is really just an establishing shot for a scene that has NOTHING to do with the paper (and the events of the episode have nothing to do with it either)... but the Night Watch itself doesn't actually appear in force until the end of the second season or beginning of the third (I'm a little fuzzy again as to exactly when). When I realized that article was there as a background element during my rewatch, I was just blown away! A small detail about an organization we won't even be introduced to for at least a season and a half... The small details that are there that you'd miss because you don't know the story yet... amazing!
Also... The growth of the relationship between Mulari and Gakar is just absolutely astonishing to me! Petty political rivals in season one, to vicious enemies in season two and three, to (not quite) friends by season 4. All of it feeling so damn natural given the events of the show. To me, the Mulari/Gakar relationship is THE BEST development in ANY series I've ever seen. And Gakar's singular character development itself is amazingly done! When you see him from season one to season four... holy shiz!
I love DS9 and I love B5. They were both so different for me that I can easily love both series without a feeling of "well this one's similar to..."
Mira Furlan was once interviewed saying that JMS talked to her about the Serbo- Croatian war to get her point of view for the series
I ended up on a "find friends" chat with her, back in the ICQ days when it would randomly find you someone to chat with, she was quite abrupt with me and I had to tell her to turn off the toggle which made her profile available for a random chat, lol!
And JMS related on the old USEnet boards that when Mira saw the script for Severed Dreams, she came to him and asked, "Have you lived in Yugoslavia"?
@@clarissathompson Well that really surprises me
@@bdchiaccio it surprised me too! ICQ was such an experiment in social media, does any site even have a random chat function anymore? Back in the ol’ Internet days of Hamsterdance…good times…
@@clarissathompson oh renember that.. i often got lots of random chats on ICQ overnight from lots of unexpected places.. one funny recurrent case was brazilian women asking me if i was a sailor.. neve understood why (i guess they were looking for some sailor sharing my name)
What do we want from you? A detailed series of videos analysing the world of B5, of course.
I'd disagree with your view that B5 doesn't wear its heart on its sleeve. IMO, it does, and in a much more grounded way than Star Trek. For instance, in the season 1 episode "By Any Means Necessary", the station's dock workers go on strike. The standpoint of the show is very strongly and clearly in support of the workers. While I admire the values (usually) reflected in Star Trek, there's little sense of how the that better society was won. Babylon 5 is about the need to take a stand, to try to win that better society (even if we may not always succeed).
And Babylon 5 may not have Worf, but it has G'Kar (for 5 seasons!). It may not have Riker for one episode, but it has Mackie.
Ivanova >= Kira. Career military vs 'reformed' terrorist.
G'Kar >>> Worf. Katsulas and Dorn are both awesome, but Katsulas' stage training let him do epic speeches. They're both strong rubber forhead aliens, but one goes on to be ambassador and one goes on to be enlightened religious figure.
Garibaldi >= Worf. They should've had Garibaldi order prune juice at least once :P
Franklin == Bashir. Drug addict who goes on walkabout vs near perfect doctor who was designed to be near perfect. Both have great flaws.
Sheridan/Shepherd >= Sisko. I agree with Steve that Sheridan/Shepard's impacts were larger than Sisko's, but Sisko is still great.
Kosh > wormhole aliens/prophets. The prophets do almost nothing, Kosh gives his life for Sheridan.
Bester < Dukat. Bester was fun, and a great foil, but Dukat is just better imo.
Vorlons/Shadows >= Dominion. The Vorlons/Shadows actually destroy a few planets, the Dominion is held back by the perfect chokepoint but still manage to decimate the Feds and allies. Vorlon ships look an awful lot like 8472 ships don't they?
Speaking to that strike episode in particular: I like that the series is realistic enough that the solution that comes out of supporting the strike has the downside of cutting the military budget and pissing off the politicos back on earth, but they make that judgement call anyway.
"Babylon, Actually" ?
@@Jcewazhere She was a terrorist for a good cause and there is every reason to think she's as reformed as she needs to be.
I think the reviewer is critiquing the lack of explicit messaging in B5, which i would actually take as a compliment. Current year politics get old. Good writers try to avoid that and speak of universal truths that go beyond mere messaging.
Screw the fact that they have similarities, they're both great shows. I'd love to see a deeper look into B5 from Steve however.
I second this idea
I have never watched Babylon 5, but I know what it's about, and I've only seen a handful of DS9 episodes, so I have little experience, but everything I've heard and read about both shows seems to support the idea that both are great, regardless of similarities.
I think the sad thing about Babylon 5 is that since it never took off into a broader franchise and then got buried by Warner Brothers, less people are ever going to watch it.
Whereas Star Trek has plenty of fans who feel compelled to watch every Star Trek series, even the ones that they really hate, just because they want the feeling of getting more of the one franchise.
They literally had the script for B5 in hand when they 'wrote' DS9, and they settled a lawsuit over it... so yeah, DS9 is a trekkified B5, but different enough to be enjoyable.
Would have been nice if crusade could have continued though. 😭
I'd recommend giving B5 another watch. There's a lot there that's really relevant to our current world, there's even an episode about a pandemic (S2 E18). I particularly enjoy B5's look at media as part of the whole aiding vs confronting fascism part of the story. Both it and DS9 are better when not in comparison to each other, just two different stories in similar settings. Still, DS9 is the future we want B5 is more about what we have to overcome and how, and I find I more often want to spend time in the hoped-for future.
@@alienlife7754 execution > concept.
it doesn't matter if something's been "done to death". nothing is original. the only thing that matters is how you execute on concept, and the way B5 executes on the pandemic concept is extremely good and relevant.
Sure, DS9 has Worf, but Ivanova is God.
Repeat after me...
You mean the character who is mostly self-defined as being Russian? God, watching this just reminds me of what a hack Straczynski is.
No, she's not God, and she apologized for the claim. But she is....
'.... Commander, daughter of Andrei and Sofie Ivanov.... the Right Hand of Vengeance, and the boot that is going to kick your sorry ass all the way back to Earth, sweetheart. [She is] Death Incarnate, and the last living thing you are ever going to see.'
@@JonSmith-hk1bq I will admit that Worf is more Russian than Ivanova.
TNG had Worf, and had a writing staff who knew how to write and edit Klingon stories.
A failing DS9 borrowed yet another thing from another series (Worf) and proceeded to ruin the character, namely by pairing off an orphaned warrior loner with someone who has absolutely nothing in common with him. It's like TNG Season 7 all over again. At least K'Ehleyr made sense as his mate.
DS9 has Worf, but B5 has G’Kar 🤔 ... and he rocks!
“Just one question: why?”
“Why not?”
“That’s not an answer.”
“Ha! Oh yes it is. It just isn’t one that you want or one that you expected, there’s a difference.”
"You saved my life!"
"Ah... You would have done the same for me."
"Yes. But I am a better person."
One thing that occurred to me during a B5/DS9 "Which show is better" discussion was that Sheridan and Sisko might actually get along pretty well if they ever met. If nothing else, they could probably talk about baseball and commiserate over the responsibilities of running a space station.
OTOH, I could see Garibaldi annoying the hell out of Odo if they ever had to work a case together.
I'm on the other side of Steve's view. B5 has a stronger story throughout is run. The characters were flawed from start of the series. This show that the heroes needed help from friends and colleges. It took DS9 a few sessions to show flaws in many of the main cast. One point about B5 is there is a single time-plot, that is all, and it pivotal to the main story. There is a greater sense of scale in B5 with races hundreds of millions of years old (even some characters), not just thousands. More technically, B5 was also ground braking effects and a real physical motion. Fighters flew with inertia.
So I believe B5 is the better show.
Both shows great with DS9 is my favorite of the Star Trek, because it uses similar theme and narration as B5.
For shame Steve, You should re-watch B5 again if it has been 20 years,
I'm rewatching B5 these days, and while I agree overall, I must say, DS9 did age better visually overall (mostly because of the stages and 3D) even though B5 has the edge in terms of alien and makeup designs. the editing in B5 is also a bit awkward so far, but I didn't get the same awkwardness from DS9.
B5 issues were more related to dialogue/ acting / budget which ds9 aped. B5s only advantage is having a great ending in season 4
The issue of races and space are not fair comparison points. DS9 is a Star Trek show and as such the races and space mechanics have to line up with what Star Trek has already depicted. DS9 worked with what came before.
Also, the idea that DS9's characters were somehow not flawed until later just isn't true. The cast had to work together from the start. The Bajorians needed to work with the Federation and forge strong bonds in order to keep the Cardassians at bay and to lay claim on the wormhole. Kira was a terrorist and that flaw was something that was a sticking point for her character early on. Meanwhile, Sisko started the show despising Picard and almost giving up the post. Not to mention the friction created by Sisko being the Emissary of the Prophets. O'Brian and Bashir did not get along at first and had to learn to work together. There were early clashes between Quark and the rest. Bashir clashed with some of the other characters, like Kira, based on his arrogant view of being there to practice medicine on the frontier. That was a sentiment that Kira found to be very insulting.
The characters from DS9 were 100% flawed from the start. They needed to work together and get help from friends, colleagues, and even advisories early on.
You are kidding. DS9 showed character flaws from the very beginning.
especially now its just been remastered in HD. Something DS9 will never get.
"We're not some deep space franchise" :-)
Damn good dig through all of this, and I really hope this gets more people to go back and check out B5 (much like I'm finally getting around to watching DS9). But you want to know what B5 REALLY ripped off? Having Andreas Katsulas as a gloriously hammy alien commander in G'Kar after TNG already did that with Tomalak.
He was more than that. I mean the character's arc is amazing.
Early Tomalak wasn't much like G'kar at all, but the longer Andreas played G'kar, the more Narn-y his Romulan became :)
I cried when I found out he was dead... Because he wasn't in B5 the lost tales. That's how I found out. Now I need a compilation video of g'kar.
Didn't he play both parts?
@@donlloyd1297 except for his cameo in All Good Things, Tomalak was done by the time Babylon 5 started.
Rip off or not we ended up getting two really great Sci fi series!
exactly, plus I am convinced without B5 or DS9, we wouldn't have Prestige Television as we know it today.
I find the differences between DS9 and the rest of the Star Trek franchise series really interesting. The similarities between B5 and DS9 become more significant when you consider that DS9 is nothing like what Star Trek did before or (arguably) later.
Doesn't Trek have multiple "ship shows" in production now? 🤔
@Steve, I love your episode and character analysis videos. Though, if by your own admission the last time you actually watched B5, with the exception of a couple episodes for this video, was nearly 20 years ago, you *need* to rewatch Babylon 5. Not only would it give you more content for the channel, but I think you'd be able to make a more complete comparison between the B5 and DS9. Both shows are great, but we all know you watch DS9 much more often and regularly than B5. :)
One other difference that I'll add on to your analysis is that Sisko boards DS9 in the first episodes and is very quickly labeled the Emissary and he has to learn what that even means whereas we get to watch Sinclair and Sheridan struggle, discover, and become these legendary figures in B5's lore.
Another element of B5 that I love is that humans are so far from being the big kids on the block. There's real danger (you touched on this) around most every corner, even on Earth, compared to the Federation being a dominant force in 2 quadrants of the galaxy and Earth is a relative utopia.
There's so much great writing in Babylon 5 that I think you would enjoy revisiting it.
Steve, thanks for this excellent video, ripping off the proverbial band-aid on an old scifi geek wound. As a Trek fan, I can say B-5 is far superior in terms of storytelling and imagination. Sure, it didn't have the budget but it blew FX out of the water and the writing has never been matched. That's right... J. Michael Straczynski fooorrreeevvveeerrrr. DS9 is great though, but the comparison as you so expertly say should maybe be put to bed. In a space station. Somewhere out there. 😘
The series long arc on B5 was so good. I was (and still am) amazed by that.
The large-scale writing on Babylon 5 is something that, as far as I know, remains unmatched to this day. The Battlestar Galactica reboot is the only other thing I've seen that even came close (and that was obviously making it up on the fly).
On the other hand, the line-by-line dialogue and the occasional (or not so occasional) soliloquy is not so great. It's serviceable, gets the job done, but, while often quotable, it's not that great as writing.
On the gripping hand, the cast does a fantastic job of delivering the lines (credit also to the direction, and all the other behind-the-camera stuff) and turns the pedestrian writing into the stuff of legends.
@@rmsgrey The last line of the title prologue did my head in. "The name of the place, Babylon 5." The most important sentence in the entire series and it is so damn clunky!
I've always found this whole DS9 vs B5 thing fascinating. I love both shows but they are similar, even down to their quality trajectory. I feel both shows start of shaky as hell and by the end have evolved into tremendous feats of storytelling. If I had to choose I think overall I get the most out of B5. But it's close. The characters in B5 just feel a lot more real and relatable and some of character arcs are truly harrowing (this despite the acting on the whole being probably of lesser quality than on DS9 - just my opinion). Love them both though. Great video. Anyone who loves trek and has never given B5 a go - despite the incredibly sketchy first season and suffering through some CGI that really hasn't dated as well as its Trek counterparts and some questionably 'Days of our lives' quality acting - if you can get past all that then the reward in store for you after 5 seasons of these beautifully planned story arcs is just incredible. and well worth the journey.
I was really hoping you'd bring up the best outtake from B5
Sheridan: 'Where's General Hague?'
Maj. Ryan 'General Hague... [Forgets line] is doing Deep Space 9. It seems he was double booked by his agent and there was nothing to be done, so you'll have to do with me sir.'
Robert Foxworth playing General Hague on B5, and Admiral Leyton on Deep Space 9, who both were trying to overthrow their respective governments. Robert Foxworth would later go on to play Administrator V'Las in Deep Space 9, who basically co-opts the Vulcan Government to start a war with Andorians.
Long story short, if you want a guy to play a character who overthrows the government. Hire Robert Foxworth, because he's really good at it.
Meh, he's 1-1 and died in the attempt in the one where he was on the victorious side, so I guess he needs one more to really settle the question. :)
All in the family was a copy, it was an American version of the BBC show Till death do us part.
Behind the scenes, JMS was greatly devoted to diversity.
They were developing a lesbian love story which wasn't realized fully only because one of the actresses left the show early.
They showed that gender and ethnicity didn't matter by deliberately showing it didn't matter. Part of this is by a note to the casting team that many guest roles could be filled by anyone. For example, one Earth Force captain was written as a white guy (only as a place holder) and was played by an Asian woman.
As an addendum to that, the original plan for Delenn was for her to be trans. They wanted Mira Furlan to be in male Minbari make up in season one then after the chrysalis Mira Furlan would play her as a woman but they couldn't get her voice pitched correctly for all the lines of dialogue Delenn had and there was push back from the studio so it just became the Minbari to part-human transformation. There's still a few dialogue nods to it in the scripts like she refers to her transformation as her "transition" and it's been confirmed by JMS.
Captain Hiroshi? Of the EAS Churchill?
Delen was supposed to transition from male to female in the story arc and but that didn't work out due to technical issues in the pilot.
B5 also had gay marriage as just a normal thing when Franklin and Marcus were posing as a married couple on their honeymoon on a mission to contact the Mars Resistance, that was pretty radical for mid-90s US TV
Behind the scenes? It was always pretty on the nose throughout the entire show.
Gonna sign up for Patreon with the name "Babylon 5 is better then DS9" just to make Steve say it
That joke is worth $5 at least the first month, right?
"Sooner or later everyone comes to Babylon 5."
*tongue in cheek* I'll take your Worf and raise you a Michael Garibaldi, and your Thomas Riker and raise you a Susan Ivanova.
On a more serious note, I'd love to see some deep dive videos like you've done with the Star Trek series into the themes and stories of Babylon 5 and the lessons we can take from those - and since you said you haven't watched it in over 20 years, I certainly wouldn't say no to a series of rewatch videos (be it episode by episode or season by season). It's a brilliant show, and it really is not much talked about nowadays.
I do wish that at least a few of the attempts to spin off the series actually worked out. A Call to Arms and the spin off Crusade certainly had promise, but were unfortunately cut far short due to executive meddling and lukewarm fan reception (speaking of, I do need to rewatch Crusade at some point), and The Legend of the Rangers and Tales from Babylon 5 unfortunately didn't even get that far - and, so far as I am aware, all attempts at a modern remake or continuation simply are not going anywhere. For such a brilliant and well thought out setting, there's unfortunately little outside of the original TV series and a short series of novels to expand the world.
I will say, for someone that hasn't seen the show in decades and only did some quick research into the series before this video, you did come across as well versed in the series. Well done, and I would absolutely love to see more content about it from you in the future.
Crusade in 2020 feels creepily relevant on some level. I watched it for the first time this summer, and I don't think I'd have liked it as much in another time. If you want to rewatch, now is probably THE time to do it. (I wish they could reboot Crusade now, they'd have a lot of material to go off of...)
I've always thought DS9 and B5 had more of "someone drawing a vase they can't see, based on the vase's description by someone who can see it" similarity. It's a vase, you can say it is round, and blue, and has a so many handles... but that's way general. If that analogy makes sense.
It makes sense, but there are clear and obvious times when DS9 clearly peeks to copy B5, to be completely accurate. There are names directly taken at points.
Also, we live for the one, we die for the one.
You are the One who Was.
You are the One who Is.
You are the One who Will Be.
- Zathras
Not the one
- also Zathras, or was it Zathras, maybe it was Zathras, I know it was one of the Zathras.
Zathras not of this time. You take, Zathras die. You leave, Zathras die. Either way, is bad for Zathras
Steve: "You wouldn't want the setting of your new show to be unimportant."
Lower Decks: *exists*
Not a drama though. Inconsequentiality is the point.
It's interesting, Steve, that you don't call the Earth government in Babylon 5 fascist. Accurately depicting the rise and workings of a fascist state seems to be something JMS was very particular about getting right.
I learned most of what I know about fascism from Babylon 5 and the rest from living under a fascist regime.
No history texts?
I remember watching B5 for the first time around 2012. At the time, the political aspect seemed well done but somewhat outdated, with their WW2 undertone... I'm rewatching it now and boy it seems downright prescient in the light of the last four years.
@@DoctorProph3t i was being hyperbolic but... honestly, I'm in Mississippi. In public school here they just taught us that Hitler was a socialist and believed crazy theories about the Jews. Not a word about the underlying causes of fascism, its true right wing bent or any comparison to the fascist regimes we allied with in latin America, and the word itself was rarely used.
@@dragonchr15 There is always a sense of national grievance and desire for redress when you see fascism. For example, the Italians were even on the side of the Allies in WWI but when they felt that they had been given the short end of the stick with subpar war reparations at the armistice, that was a thing fascism could exploit, and they in fact coined the term sometime before WWII. For Japan it was to some extent that they had been the victims of Western manipulation and cultural imperialism, but honestly there was a lot of historical context for that that I don't know much about. It's a shame that sometimes a legitimate problem will be something fascism can grow up around and lead to vastly more deaths and injustice than the original wrong.
There's a reason that "Make America Great Again" set off my fascism detectors immediately... and then I remembered that Reagan used the same phrase. There is a lot of fodder in modern America for a story about American decline. A young generation are at a disadvantage compared to how it was for their parents. There is a national austerity that scares people, and for good reason.
It's just that Fascists blame all the wrong people and propose the worst solutions possible. Like... it's nobody's fault but capital itself.
I think for JMS in the 90's Reagan would have been a recent and unpleasant example of a world leader with pronounced fascistic tendencies. Then of course I also see influences from the McCarthy era and even Imperial Japan in his fascist EarthGov in Babylon 5.
@@georgeparkins777 The "National Socialists" were socialists the same way a "Democratic Republic" is democratic or a republic.
Glad you finally got around to this subject. I think an overlooked reason why many Trek fans consider DS9 the best Trek series is because it was the only Trek series with direct competition. B5 made DS9 up its game. Both series shared actors, directors and writers, so it's understandable that there would be many similarities. And that is a good thing. It's a shame that future Trek series didn't learn from the critical success of DS9.
On the flip side, it is quite possible that Voyager would have ended up a much more regarded and possibly better show had Warner (specifically TNT) not screwed around with B5:Crusade. Voyager would have benefited with the competition, just like DS9 had. B5C shared many similarities with Voyager, and could have possibly forced Voyager to up its game in regards to character development and non-status quo storytelling.
I don't understand why Trek, specifically DS9 fans, hate B5 so much. I think both shows were great. It's okay to like both shows. It seems like certain Trek fans want their favorite franchise to be the only sci-fi franchise out there with the way they constantly debate with B5 and Star Wars fans online and IRL. Not you Steve.
Keep up the great work!
Yes. Final answer? Yes. One might say, "B5 is not some deep space franchise." Well, Susan Ivanova might say that. She might. Still love DS9, Sisko was a great captain.
Who am I? I am Susan Ivanova, Commander. Daughter of Andre and Sophie Ivanov. I am the right hand of vengeance and the boot that is going to kick your sorry ass all the way back to Earth, sweetheart! I am death incarnate, and the last living thing that you will ever see. God sent me.
One of the things I liked about B5 was that it was so different from Star Trek. The look, the feel, the characters and the structure of the shows themselves have pretty much nothing in common and the things they do share are done much better on DS9.
Sorry B5 fans! x
PS, as an interesting tidbit: JMS said he "borrowed" a few elements from DS9 after watching it. Ivanova was based a little on Kira, the Whitestar was based on the Defiant and the role of the Shadows on the show was massively increased, based on the Dominion... even Dukat's name was borrowed.
I tried to like Babylon 5, but it seemed like every three episodes I watched that I enjoyed, two absolutely terrible ones would pop up and undo all the good parts.
To each their own, but to me, Babylon 5 was a very poor imitation.
Where did you get your hat? I've been looking for one.
DS9 became the great series it became under the guidance of Ira Steven Behr, who was not involved at the beginning.
Personally I am thankful we were given two of the best science fiction series of all time.
I have both series on DVD. (Where are the remastered BluRays).
Never ever thought when I was watching both series that something was ripped off from the other.
There won't be remastered HD editions any time soon. DS9 has been declared to be not popular enough to get one by its owners. So that won't be happening. Also there have been (and there still are ongoing) fan attempts to upscale the DVD version, but unfortunately there are rare technical issues involved with doing that to DS9 that don't exist with almost any other show. Something about some scenes being interlaced while others are progressive scanned or something like that (I don't recall the details). Basically whoever made the DVD versions screwed up massively and did a piss poor job in a technical sense, and if you want to upscale it without creating unwanted artifacts you first have to manually undo all the damage they did frame by frame, and that's a tremendous amount of work.
As for Babylon 5, visual quality wise the DVDs are hot garbage due to some (budget based) decisions that were made during the show's production in the 90s. The problems are so bad you can actually visually see them, even in standard definition. One shot in a scene will be sharp and clear, then the next one will be fuzzy and out of focus, then back to clear again, then cutting to a rapid series of CGI shots that range from acceptable to "I can't believe that was aired on a real TV show" levels of bad. All of that within a few seconds. At 480 resolution it's more or less watchable if you make an effort not to notice such things, but when you try and upscale it the massive, glaring quality differences between back to back shots is so distracting that it pulls you out of the scenes. Add to that things like the fact that the original files for the CGI shots were lost, and the whole project just becomes unworkable. (I don't think the original pre-edit footage exists either anymore, but I could be misremembering that.) Maybe fans can eventually remake the CGI with modern tech. Maybe AI interpolation will get good enough to smooth over the low detail and out of focus live action shots. But that's for the future. And it will be up to fans to do if it's going to happen.
@@jasonwalker9471 B5 won't be getting upgrade HD quality likely ever. It is due to WB having the rights and executives refuse to sell the rights , due to not wanting anyone else to make money off of it. They just want the franchise to die.
@@alanguages well they did the HBO clean thing.. wich looks good
DS9 also became much better once they brought Ronald D. Moore on.
My favorite episode in ds9 is ‘the visitor’ where Jake grows up to be Tony Todd and Sisko appears in and out of time. If you can’t cry while watching that you are a monster.
I watched both shows religiously weekly while airing. I remember distinctively the introduction of the White Star. An advanced prototype small corvette designed specifically to combat the Shadows. A week or two later, The Defiant shows up on DS9, a advanced prototype small corvette designed specifically to.....you get the point. At that point, my personal opinion was set till this day and ever shall be. Thanks for your Sci Fi content Steve!
Um thats not true at all. The Defiant debuted in the season 3 opener "The Search" which aired in September 1994. The White Star debuted in "Matters of honor" which first aired in November of 1995. Thats over a year later.
Not sure if it’s been said but my favourite B5 arc was the relationship between Londo and G’Kar. Two wonderful actors playing in two fantastic characters.
It is the one.
Re-watched B5 with my girlfriend, her first time watching it, this last spring. The President Clark arc is sure relevant in 2020.
And while Worf is my #1 Star Trek character... all I can say is G'Kar. You gotta love Andreas Katsulas, come on, its Tomalak.
Through hollyweird history, paralleling has happened. Feature films like Dante's Peak and Volcano, Armageddon and Deep Impact had similar plots. Each had a different take on the concept. TV isn't immune to this concept either. I Dream of Jeannie and Bewitched both mingled magic and romance. Still, I do think that some behind the scenes sharing of concepts happens. Either above board or under the table, I am not at all sure. I know you LOVE Deep Space. I LOVE Babylon 5. I'm okay with DS9, it's just my least fav of the live action franchise. Sad to say that the b5 universe never managed a decent franchise of its own.
While that's true, in this instance Paramount were actually offered B5 in 1990 and passed on it. So they had the concept document, and it's clear some things in DS9 were derivative of B5. It's also apparent though the hatchet on this got buried. Since the likes of Majel Barret & other Trek actors appearing on B5, and the likes of Billy Mumy coming to guest on DS9.
@@KiltedCritic Came here to post both points. Tho the listed movies have more in common then the B5 and DS9 link. Since they explicitly came from the same treatments that had been floated around for ages, going back as the 70s for Dante's Peak and Volcano.
@@claytonberg721 From how JMS has spoken about it on Twitter, B5 never had support from the higher ups at Warner Bros. It was greenlit by a distribution division who usually had nothing to do with producing shows and because of that and some other internal politics it was always in a tenuous position at WB. They were more likely to just walk away entirely than pursue legal action against Paramount.
@@jamesoneill7458 Yeah, WB (as major partner of a coalition) put together their own network, PTEN, which, due to internal politics, fell under their distribution arm, so when PTEN commissioned original content, they got to call the shots, rather than the usual production departments. When PTEN collapsed (B5 having been its big success, but a network needs more than just one show), TNT picked up the final season and threw money at it as part of an attempt to broaden their viewership. When that didn't work out (B5 fans tuned in for the episodes, then switched right back over to something else rather than sticking around for TNT's core content - and then JMS got stroppy over their production notes on Crusade), TNT adopted the strategy of burying B5 in their overnight slots to make their decision to can the spin-off look good while still keeping their licensing deal (meaning no-one else could adopt the show and show them up that way).
Meanwhile, WB retained the (TV) rights to B5, but internally control was no longer with the distribution arm, so until certain people die or retire, WB has no interest in reviving B5, and enough of the cast have died and JMS has had enough other projects since, that he's been happy to let it lie too.
But, yeah, any attempt at litigation would have A) locked down B5 production for years and B) given the show's internal enemies at WB all the ammunition they'd need to get the plug pulled.
@@claytonberg721 here is video of Patricia Tallman saying there was a lawsuit ua-cam.com/video/mtaDXnB1YsA/v-deo.html
Well, Sheridan's arc as the "father of the nation" made it to Enterprise's Archer.
Fun fact: the name "Jonathan Archer" is homage to David Bowman, captain of the _Discovery_ in "2001: a Space Odyssey" :
(1) The last names, Archer and Bowman, have the same meaning.
(2) The first names, Jonathan and David, are mentioned in the Bible. On its own, that seems coincidence like the "Straczynski and Roddenberry have 11 letters" bit in the video. After all, both names are far from uncommon. But . . .
(3) Jonathan and David were not two random biblical characters; they knew each other: Saul was king before David, and Jonathan was Saul's son. According to 1 Samuel (e.g. chapter 18), Jonathan and David were close friends.
(4) The most precious gift Jonathan gave David was his bow. Later, after Jonathan was killed, David wrote a poem about Jonathan and that bow.
B5 went from Jeffrey Sinclair to John Sheridan? I never watched, was there some significance to the JS initials?
Well the showrunner was Jo Straczyski
Steve, I adore how articulate you are. Your actual "Trek, Actually" videos are so well-crafted and presented. (Your 'Not-actually Trek, Actually' videos are fun as well, no shade intended.)
"Does Trek actually respect the chain of command?"
Ha, I know a Starfleet Academy mission that would answer that question really fast.
There are FOUR LIGHTS
"Go do this thing!"
"Ok, I did the thing as ordered"
"Ha! You fool! You were supposed to disregard that order and do something different!"
"Fuck this, I'm working for the Orions. Goodbye!"
You'll find that any "copycat" story/show/character given enough time will diverge from the original enough to be a unique thing of it's own. This happens all the time in comics, and a lot of beloved characters started life as a clone of a rival character, but through the hands of different writers and through contact with the unique universes they take place in they develop into their own thing separate from their original.
This same argument took place in 1979, when the original Battlestar Galactica premiered. There was a lawsuit regarding Battlestar ripping off Star Wars, which was the first major blockbuster science fiction movie ever at the time. (The first Star Wars, now known as "Episode IV, A New Hope.)
Excellent analysis, Steve. I also really enjoyed both shows. One huge difference that you didn't mention was the focus on religion amongst people that was more integral to B5 than DS9. J.Michael, an atheist and primary writer of the entire series, brought out religions and customs throughout the entire run. At one point, monks lived on the station. (Wow. There really was a lot of crossover.) While DS9 had the Prophets/Wormhole aliens, J. Michael went much further in examining the beliefs and customs of peoples & races and its effects, both positive and negative, on every day life situations. He often brought in the Universe as a sub for God. I don't think a sci-fi series has had such an integration of various religious beliefs. Most writers prefer to believe that people will 'outgrow' God rather than take him with them into space. JMS didn't seem to share that particular vision. DS9 didn't go nearly that deep, keeping religion to that of the Bajorans.
One of the striking aspects of DS9 that makes it much more similar to B5 and different from any other Trek is how is how DS9 handles religion.
The Babylon 5 crew travel back and visit the space station Babylon 4 in several episodes.
The Deep Space Nine crew travel back to Deep Space Station K-7 in an episode.
They ripped it off and later made it their own.
Not Zathras, but Zathras.
When you getting a b5 model to put below your monitor?
@Steve Shives Babylon 5 did have those type of episodes did you not watch the episodes when the Narns got enslaved again and their fight for freedom? What show did you watch
At first I gasped at the casual disregard for Tolkien. Then I caught my breath and realized fantasy like Tolkien is backward looking, mythological, spiritual, and entropic. Sci fi, that this channel focuses on is forward looking, metaphorical, material, and expansive. In the former, the best is past, in the later the best is yet to come. I can see different strokes for different folks.
Tolkien accomplished something very impressive with establishing a market that became huge but wasn't really there before. On that basis, The Lord of the Rings certainly deserves praise.
But when you compare it against others that came later, it really doesn't look that great. And a revisionist tale that glorifies aristocracy as being of superior birth and carrying the White Man's Burden just doesn't hold up that well anymore.
@@Yora21 I can see where you are coming from, but remember where Tolkien was coming from. He was obviously referencing ancient myths and stories like Beowulf, finish folk tales and The Four Branches of the Mabinogi . Nearly all of which are centered around mythical kings and other nobles. He created a story and mythos that deliberately made hobbits ( an obvious stand in for ordinary farmers and people who don't seek power ) become the true heros. He made obviously evil foes ( as all myths do ) but he still showed the horror of war and obviously felt that war was only justified in defense. An important commentary post WW1 & WW2 , and with the anti war sentiment of the 1970's when it was published. It's message was also very anti industrialisation and anti pollution during the birth of the environmental movement. He made sure to include a shield maiden and a queen who was more powerful than her husband. Strong female warriors and queens were in the old myths, but in fantasy writing in Tolkien's time they were either ignored, vilified or sexualised in fantasy. Tolkien took old myths and used a lot of the same ( somewhat problematic) strokes. But what he did change had a lot to say about modern issues in the 1970's and today.
Thank you for this video Steve. This was very enlightening. I watched DS9 in it's entirety for the first time a few months ago and loved it. Upon completing the series I had a conversation about it with a friend which ultimately lead to a nasty argument regarding Babylon 5. I have never seen B5 myself so I was ill equipped to participate in the discussion at the time. But the result was essentially my friend implying that DS9 was indeed a shameless rip off, completely devaluing it as a show and that I should feel bad for liking it. This left me honestly hurt and angry. I may have known next to nothing about B5 at the time, but even I could grasp the concept of one show does not completely illegitimize the other and you CAN enjoy both. Thank you for this insight into both shows. As a fan of one who's genuinely curious about the other, I appreciate it. :)
gees wtf im sorry you had that experience, some B5 fans can be a bit religious about the show, its an extremely powerful show. I hope you've had a chance to see it
B5 *absolutely* ripped off LotR (and that's not a bad thing). JMS doesn't even try to hide it. B5 has:
* Lorien
* Khazad-dûm - sorry, Z'ha'dum
* Magical beings of light who are supposed to be the good guys, but only 2 are significant and 1 turns out to be "evil"
* A leader who dies when he falls down a chasm fighting the enemy, then comes back stronger
* An enemy who can find you across vast spaces when you peer into its realm
* Powerful malevolent beings which are unleashed when naïve mortals dig too deep
* Ancient immortals who leave the world behind for a place akin to heaven
And that's just off the top of my head!
Another great video Steve. When you mentioned you thoughts that paramount executive might have passed on some ideas to the ds9 staff from the b5 concept draft it reminded me if something that I once read in the book Star Trek Memories (and I know that anything that Shatner says should be taken with a grain of salt). The story goes that while making the rounds to pitch start trek to the networks roddenberry met with the executives of cbs and they picked his brains about the show, in particular the ways to cut down on cost in order to make a major sci-fi series. They then passed on trek, but incorporated what they learned into their own sci-fi series, lost in space. If this story is true it is kind of interesting that paramount, possibly, did the same thing with b5 that cbs did with trek nearly 30 years earlier.
I've been reading about this since the early 2000s!
The answer is yes and the answer to a reboot to Babylon 5 should be hell yes!
As someone who was living through the 90's ,watching and loving BOTH shows, it never occurred to me until later when I read some commentary about the possibility Paramount copied from B5. The story lines of the shows diverge significantly as time passes. At the time, I even liked Babylon 5 a little bit more than DS9, but that was because by the mid to late 90s, "Star Trek fatigue" was beginning to set in on me, and Babylon 5 was a new "universe."
I think DS9 has held up better over time. But B5 would have as well if Warner Brothers had actually cared about the legacy of the show, which the studio has never cared at all about.
Babylon 5 probably introduced the era of serialized story telling to primetime TV more than any other single show did. It's always deserved more attention and respect than its gotten, and that lies solely at the feet of Warner Brothers neglect of the show.
Anyway, love both shows then, loved them both now, I've rewatched both a couple of times over the years and enjoyed the re-watches almost as much as the first time.
While B5's universe was a bit "darker" than Star Trek's, I think both had a similar hopeful outlook.
"It's easy to find something worth dying for. Do you have anything worth living for?"
Both series provide an emphatic 'yes' to that question.
How do u spell Dukat and Leeta in B5?
Yeah, my thought has always been it is kind of a "rip off" to be blunt about it, "inspired by" to be kinder. But ultimately, it doesn't matter to me. The creative leads are so so different that the shows don't even feel the same. I love both for very different reasons.
They’re different... usually in B5’s favor.
A lot of it comes down to the format, where DS9 took a while to get to the clear story arc.
Also, B5 is a bit grittier with the realism but also more... operatic? in the larger than life characters.
B5 hit a good stride in the second season, DS9 took longer to get where it was going.
B5 also did better with the moral gray - the Vorlons perhaps the best example of a wait-we-thought-they-were-the-good-guys situation.
I would argue that the acting is far superior in DS9 and makes up for any deficits it has in comparison to B5.
Steve please do more B5 videos! B5 is my favorite all time TV show. #JustSaying if you ad a B5 tier to Patreon I’ll sign up! Thanks as always for the excellent content!
I wonder if another similarity was in the original pitch. Both stations only had smaller vessels (Runabout/Starfury) until in a later season they get a small but totally overpowered warship to be more active in the war.
Can you refresh my memory on the changeling in the B5 movie? Are you talking about the changeling net used to impersonate Sinclair? 10:00
I believe that's it - and man, that's a weak point of comparison. "Someone used some tech to disguise himself", OMG!!! ... oh, the use of the term "changeling" was stolen from the old Trek episode with Nomad, so IF we're going to point fingers over every superficial similarity, this is yet another thing B5 ripped off from old Trek.
@@kingbeauregard Both are good, and I'd rather see more of each than any finger pointing. B5 had a lot of wasted potential that I'd love to see explored at least half as much as the Star Trek franchise. All we got was one short spinoff and a few movies, though.
“It takes at least a year to learn Minbari!”
“And how old will you be in a year if you don’t learn Minbari?”
B5 is by far my favourite of the two, but if I had to choose one episode from either show, my favourite will be Far Beyond The Stars. From B5, I could not pick a one.
"In the pale Moonlight" - every day of the year. There was never a better Star Trek episode.
It's like asking to pick my favorite child. For me, clearly DS9 is the best Trek, but DS9 and B5 sustained me through rough times in my life.
I would love to see an updated take on B5... It's still so well known, but it hasn't aged quite as well as DS9. In fact both suffer from that in their earlier seasons with a lot of episodes I find hard to watch. B5 though often ran plots and sub-plots through episodes, with few 'one shots' while DS9 was usually a series of one off episodes that loosely connected into a larger arc. I prefer the storytelling in B5, which has thankfully become more common these days than it ever has been, but few stories work so well at an epic scale.
I would too, but I fear they'd Stargate it up :^ (
Joke's on you, there is no Fivers team or group (although Sheridan and Garibaldi visit the batting range from time to time).
They did have a B5 merchandise shop for one episode, but it was scrapped when Captain Sheridan discovered that a stuffed bear (Bab-bear-lon 5) had his initials on the jersey it wore. He ejected it into space.
B5 is my favorite show, but DS9 is far and away my favorite Trek series.
I remember trying to rewatch Babylon 5 and having a really hard time getting through the first season, all the characters were unlikeable, the plot was slow and pondering, had a lot of info dump, and the special effects weren't that special (although I did like a lot of the designs).
Then it got better and found it's stride, but man I am surprised it got renewed.
One difference I always enjoyed about B5 was how Earth was not the technological powerhouse that the federation was. In actuality B5 humans were around the same level as the narns compared to the centauri, minbari and God forbid the first ones.
Not to mention Earth under Clark's fascist regime actually becoming one of the main bad guys by the end of Season Two! That was a real headwrecker for young me
as to tv show ripoffs, nothing tops the mentalist for ripping off psych
psych even acknowledged the fact in its references to the show with numerous mean but not too mean ("now THAT would be eerily similar") jabs at the mentalist
"LotR.... not my thing"
It's amazing how much we are alike!
Actor Andreas Katsulas was J'Kar in Babylon 5, and also the Romulan Commander Tomalak in The Next Generation. Billy Mumy (Will Robinson from Lost in Space) was also in both shows, as a regular in B5, and guest starring in an episode of DS9.
Worf is like bacon, everything is better with him.
Is Star Trek: Voyager Actually a Rip Off of Red Dwarf?
"Captain Janeway, you are a smeeeee-HEEEEEEED". - Kryten of Nine
No, I think it's a rip off of Lost in Space.
More like "Lost in Space"--minus the quality.
Stewart said that he thought Dwarf was a rip-off of TNG when he first saw it.
This may be an unpopular opinion but Deep Space 9 holds up much better over time. The once cutting edge graphics are a big part but also the dialogue and costumes feel so tied to what was cool and edgy in the 90's
It's interesting that, in both series, actor Robert Foxworth plays a high-ranking Earth officer who leads a coup against his own President in the belief that they are ultimately protecting democracy -- but in a complementary/contradictory way. Foxowrth's DS9 character, Vice-Admiral Leyton, conspires against Jaresh-Inyo, the Federation's duly-elected President, to set up martial law since he believes the civilian government cannot adequately protect the Federation from the Dominion. He challenges Jaresh-Inyo's adequacy, but not his legitimacy.
On the other hand, Foxworth's B5 character, General William Hague, conspires against Earth Alliance President, Morgan Clark, because he believes (correctly, as it turns out) that Clark only rose to power by assasinating his predecessor. While Leyton sought to install martial law, Hague's open defiance of Clark's illegitimate regime is manifest in his *refusal* to enact martial law on Clark's orders. Also, while Leyton's revolt was exposed and defeated by Sisko, Hague actually recruits Captain Sheriden to his cause, and when Hague is killed off-screen (because Foxworth was fimilng DS9...), Sheriden ends up taking his place and leads the successful charge against Clark.
Finding out that Steve doesn't like LOTR is a bummer.
Not so much that he doesn't like it, but that he seems to despise it without ever having read it. Makes me think he's not quite the enlightened human he plays on TV.
@@kenhall3526
I can understand it.
If you've grown up with Frodo, Sam and the others so that they seem like old friends (and that's me) it's virtually impossible to recognise that the story is actually pretty stupid.
Tolkien in crap. Sure, he’s due a lot of credit for reinventing and popularizing the fantasy genre, but the writing is terrible. After reading modern fantasy series first, trying to finish Tolkien for the first time without puking is tough.
I watched B5 after its actual run. At the time I watched B5, I said it was the best sci-fi story ever told and I’m a huge DS9 fan.
Looking back, I actually prefer DS9 though. B5’s acting wasn’t as strong, the first and last seasons were quite weak and never enjoyed Sheridan as a character. That said, B5 is still one of my favorites...along with DS9, BSG and The Expanse.
You are crazy londo gkar and delen beats any acting on deep space nine lol. And Garbaldi makes worf and the changling look like a joke lol.
Expanse is the third gem is this amazing trinity.
My family and I watched both shows during their original runs (and loved them both!) but it wasn't until much later that I started seeing the parallels between character arcs and similarities in story lines. It was the way the parallels were presented in different ways that I felt made the biggest difference in how I appreciated them separately. I still love B5 for the grand interconnected storytelling that I think no does better than JMS, and I love DS9 because of all the history behind it and how it did something different from TOS and TNG while still keeping the core of what makes it Trek and growing it.
Arguing B5 and DS9, is like saying Toyota is a rip off of GM for making a vehicle with 4 wheels.
You are in a stationary location in space. You are not exploring everyday. You will not encounter new things non stop. Instead you are focusing on what's familiar, factions, characters, families visiting, infighting, conflicts with factions.
The adventures is focusing on indepth exploration of each characters with each other. Versus "We find a new civilization to learn about".
This story telling is a given and unavoidable if you're a space station that isn't moving.
I love both shows, and while DS9 might have taken queues from B5, they are 2 very different shows.
“Originality is the art of hiding your sources.”
In a late episode of Breaking Bad, a cop eavesdropped on Brandon "Badger" Mayhew talking for three hours "about something called Babylon Five."
Oh hey, it's my favourite Star Tek series vs my favourite sci fi show! Very nicely done, Steve.
Also "Why would I take the show without Worf over the show with Worf"? I'd say the same thing about G'Kar. One of my favourite things about B5 has been introducing it to people, and them immediately zeroing in on the Narns as the aggressive antagonist species in the show. It's a brilliant bait and switch. They become the most sympathetic of every major faction shown in the series, and G'Kar himself unintentionally becomes a messianic figure in his own right.
G'Kar and Londo have my favourite relationship between two characters I've seen in any medium. If it weren't for those two, DS9 would surpass it, imo.
I think the Babylon 5 pitch was ripped off in the form of an early document (a bible, a first draft for the pilot) of Deep Space 9 and they were using that. Because I think there are way too many superficial similarities to deny that some kind of pollenation happened, but I think that was done by someone who doesn't know anything about writing. That's how you end up with superficial details like a stargate next to a space station, the station firing its thrusters at the end of the pilot or introducing a smaller, more nimble ship at the start of season 3 as a secret weapon against the overwhelming enemy.
The work the actual writers done based on the lifted document was creative and original, creating a unique show. And when there were similarities on that level (the racist attack on a Ferengi/Minbari with a brand on the forehead), that was probably accident.
RE: B5 and inculsivity
One of the more maddening BTS stories of B5 is how WB told Tamlyn Tomita (who was cast as the 2nd-in-command in the pilot, and people might know her from Karate Kid 2) should deliver her lines "softer", because she was too "harsh", "unlikeable". So, they rerecorded her lines.
But this makes it even funnier that when she didn't return, they replaced her character with Ivanova who was written to be way harsher. And when they finally made a special edition of the pilot, they reinstated her original delivery.
I find your opening a tiny bit confusing. You are say that you think that you DS9 is a ripoff of B5, correct?
I guess I found the "of Deep Space 9" instead of "by Deep Space 9" is where the confusion sets in.
I do agree with you that there were some superficial similarities that were too hard to explain away as being coincidental.
Completely agree - two different creative teams unsurprisingly created two different shows. Doesn't lessen the shadiness of the studio stealing the original pitch.
And more recently Commodore Oh
I agree. The basic premise is way too similar to say that they didn't come from the same root idea, and maybe even first draft of a pilot. Beyond that though? The shows go in entirely different directions, have entirely different narratives, cover different ideas, exist in universes that are not at all alike, and in general just have nothing to do with each other. Maybe DS9 hurt Babylon 5's ratings at the time and maybe it helped them, but either way that was 25 years ago and we can now stream both shows on demand and enjoy them for what they are. People can like one or the other, both, or neither, and it's honestly absurd to argue in good faith that one of them is a ripoff of the other.
Hmm, they said "good luck" rather than "break a leg."
They weren't in the theater at the time, so it was fine.
As others have said, B5 existed first, JMS was shopping his series bible around, looking for a producer. Having actual studio backing, DS9 premiered first but "borrowed" a lot of B5 concepts. JMS has the lawsuit settlement to prove it. Now granted, they have evolved some differences, but the similarities are striking.
What are the similarities? Let me count the ways, in as much detail as possible:
It's not just "both were set on stations", or even "both were stations positioned near gates", but "both were stations positioned near gates in neutral/contested areas far from Earth, that eventually acquired mobility in the form of an amazing starship with barely-understood alien super-technology (White Star:Defiant)"
Sinclair = Picard, a senior captain who had extremely traumatic experiences while being captured by a seemingly unbeatable alien threat, yet was instrumental in engineering a victory for Earth, and has lost/supressed memories as a result. He also literally or figuratively hands the reins of the station over to:
Sheridan = Sisko, a captain who is notable for surviving the Battle To End All Battles (Battle of the Line = Wolf 359, see, they even rhyme!) when a great many other ships were lost with all hands. Some survivor's guilt.
Sinclair and Sisko, however, share the overarching religion-based plotline.
Delenn = Jadzia, an alien who, after undergoing a body transformation of some sort, takes on a conventionally attractive dark-haired human female form, becomes a romantic partner of and eventually marries a senior (tactically oriented) officer (Sheridan/Worf).
Garibaldi = Odo, the station's security officer. Kind of curmudgeonly, but overall a decent person. Has a complicated history with an oppressive regime (EarthDome-Mars:Cardassia).
Talia/Lyta = Odo, possessor of an incredible, almost supernatural, talent. More on that below.
Londo = Quark, lecherous libertine belonging to an alien species that allows polygamy. Spends a lot of time in the station's bar.
G'Kar = Kira Nerys, member of a formerly-subjugated species, former resistance fighter with a well-grounded outlook on life that is regarded as valuable to the station commander. There will be unavoidable tension and dramatic interplay with the species that formerly occupied the homeworld.
I'm not really counting the respective doctors, because every major installation has to have a doctor, and medical ethics issues are universal.
Telepaths = Shapeshifters, we've got one solidly (see what I did there?) on our side, but others of the ilk are ongoing hidden threats that rear up and become active problems.
Minbari = Bajorans, alien species, now allied with Earth, with a vested interest in keeping the station operating. Minbari also, in the backstory, stand in for the Borg as the nigh-unstoppable attacker of Earth forces.
Narn:Centauri = Bajorans:Cardassians, Palestinian:Zionist parallel, a formerly suppressed/occupied homeworld whose people are now free and are figuring out how to deal with their former occupiers as equals (and subject to eventual re-invasion).
Centauri = Cardassians, decidedly Roman, but from very different eras. Centauri is decadent post-prime Rome, Nero is fiddling while the walls burn. Cardassia is Rome still in its military prime. Both have just met their first real reversal in their previously expansionist pattern.
I'm not quite sure whether to classify the Q (near-omniscient ascended species deciding if they really like humanity or not) as being equal to Shadows vs. Vorlon or Brown Kosh vs. Blue Kosh. The Q Civil War (in Voyager) kind of biases me towards the latter. Shadows vs. Vorlon more echoes themes developed in Enterprise, in the form of the Temporal Cold War.
That the stations both get surprise weapons upgrades and an experimental space craft which gets destroyed and replaced later on is a bit coincidence too.