Im just a 1400 aoe2de pleb, but I really dont find Goths THAT hard. Maybe if you are in Vipers level, but not against other plebs. Everyone goes yolo drush into like 30 maa. I usually just wall up and go archers. You will have a faster castle age time, better economy and you know their strat so it is easy to counter
@@magiking96 Untill they stop being viper fanbois and make 3-5 militia and go for a fast castle. Then make a mango or 2 with longswords. Have fun against that with archers
magiking96 Really depends on their micro in my opinion, also it’s not a good idea to invest into archers against Goths unless you’re sure it’ll be a quick game
Gonna call it now - they're gonna do the same thing with the bonus as they have with every other bonus: make it a slightly increasing discount every age with a small 5-15% discount in Dark Age.
This is why nobody wants to buy DE. Nobody is interested in being screwed around with as the guinea pig in some idiots meta experiment. This is why "evolving meta" is retarded nonsense. I _like_ having my years of experience mean something, and not have to recalibrate my understanding of the game every time some idiot gets a wild hair up his ass to make a game changing alteration nobody asked for.
4:26 In case you're wondering... that little hill micro there is only part of the reason the rest of us plebs just wouldn't stand a chance... Also, kinda fitting for the Goths to be clubbing people to death before they have time to tech up...
OMG, never played Goths before, I'm a mediocre player, and I just started using this strat all on my own and now Goths are now listed as my best civ. This is OP'd AF.
LALIT SINGH RANA I disagree .. drush is a very strong strategy because it forces action from opponents so even if didn’t delay the opponent, they will have to create a counter unit like scouts archers or even m@arms which means you will have a time to create a counter strategy
ahmed elakad 3 min in when all his vills are under his TC. I don’t think he needs and immediate response for your 3 militia. Also resources well spend, good job.
@@lalitsinghrana4234 Lithuanian drush doesn't delay your eco at all if done right. And it can really mess up your opponent if you arrive before loom. If you kill a vill in early dark age that's literally hundreds of res by castle age. Hell even early loom is a huge hit to your eco
thenayancat It does when you are putting your wood in barracks before lumber and mill. Also, if defended perfectly from drush, your opponent doesn’t lose a single vil. And your resources are down the drain. Again, resources well spend.
Ok, some phrases from the late 90th and early 00th in AoK: "You can counter the Flush" "You can beat Huns in 1vs1 on Arabia with any Civ" LOL! This will lead to Goth vs Goth wars. Will be interesting to watch.
Lost two games on arabia vs Goths playing as Mongols. I knew the opponent strategy and still, I failed to counter it. The drush didn't kill my vills, however some of them couldn't work - they had to repair walls/buildings. I went archers and cleared the militia, then went straight to the opponent's base. They were walled or making defensive towers, so I couldn't harm them much. They went castle with castle drop in their base and then they started to produce huskarls which I countered with knights. Then they added halbs and I was dead. What should I do? How to counter huskarls/halbs as mongols?
I still don't think this is too OP because it can be countered through walls and archers. Had Tim massed 5-10 archers before sending them out, he could have just started micro-ing and one-shotting the militia.
Exactly and walling is important. Only reason opponent would pick goths in open map is this so you can just full wall your base early on and then goths (still) got nothing. Thus I'm sure this won't be viable in tournaments but we will see (if pros actually even bothers to try it there that is)
If you really have to wall and defend against Goths early game, there is no chance that you can counter them at any other point of the game with absolutely any civ.
Except it's unreasonable to get all the walls up before the drush hits without signicantly hurting your eco, plus the Goth player can just adapt and only make 5 milita or something and going FC. Normally archers are way too slow of a strat to counter FC, and if you also have to invest into wall you can't expect to ever get to FC before a good Goths player. Once Goths get free boom, it's gg for any civ
There are SOOO many way one could go about making this balance change, none of which are straight forward. The civ either needs to be weaker at late game in exchange for early game power, or there needs to be some major downsides to Dark Age units for goths so that their unit volume are counteracted by low unit quality (making a good early macro the key). But left unchecked, this bonus could turn into (if it hasn't already) a pre-nerf StarCraft 1 Zergling Rush.
Might be cool, although I personally think that something like hunters not needing to drop of their food or something similar would be more appropriate for the Goths
To judge accurately that this was overpowered buff you should play against a solid and fast player like Hera. In fact, I invite you to try it against him where he has the right to choose a civilization that counters the goths and we can judge from there.
@Viper, I wonder why is the new Goths bonus so important for this strategy. Say you try this with celts or other civ, how should it be countered ? I agree that without discount, one can counter this by doing the same, but is there another way ? Otherwise, why is it not meta ? Is the discount really making this pass the cost-efficiency threshold ? (Hope my question is clear)
I mean of coarse the best player out there can demonstrate how OP something is. Put this into the hands of someone average and all of a sudden it's just "good". A decent wall and a couple archers can handle this no issue. Or at least contain it long enough to not be a big problem.
Did you see what Tim did on his lumbercamp? Did you also see how useless it is against bunch of m@a? Also tower cost 125 stones, you can only build 1 unless you shift some vills into stone which is stupid if you are into defending your area with towers, might as well put those vills normally on gold, woods and foods, get archers, fight back the invaders.
no ofense, but tim made questionable decisions. Spending 220 food and 80 gold for 2 maa and making the first archer at 14 minutes when he got to feudal at 9? Goths can finally breathe in early game
Jarl Balgruuf He was still completely dominated. It’s not like viper was bringing his A game micro. He had 40 maa, there was no way to stop that with five extra archers.
Tim was caught off guard, which is partly why he got dominated so easily, but at this point you can't expect him to magically have the eco to place archery ranges and produce archers when he is having to wall and getting his gold denied. Even if he had expected this though, there is no counter play except Goths mirror.
Yes. This may need balance, but it's not broken. It just finally punishes the idea that military doesn't matter in the first age and a half. If quickwalling were finally patched out, we could have a different discussion.
@@retrofly9 Fast feudal + archers is too slow for this, in fact, fast feudal + archers is too slow vs full wall fc which I learned the hard way. That's why you open with M@a unless you know your opponent is going feudal and you can pull it off
as a noob i would like to see a BO3 with viper against goth, different strats, different civs, so one could say 'if you'd be suprior, this is how one could beat them' i also have some questions to the game statistics: y the big food difference (1k)? i would expect tim to collect faster or more bc the vills in his tc are probably his most saves - or was it just bc viper was so heavy on farms to get & maintain his army / flood of destruction? would this be an opportunity to turn against the early rush? like super-aggressive play with (boar-)laming and delaying food eco while boom behind & get to st like archers? and is the kill-death ratio bugged? PS: HC3!! :)
Late comment, but I would expect Viper to get more food in the short term. While Tim was researcing the Feudal age, he had to stop producing villagers. Possibly he even stopped villager production briefly just to hit the Feudal age a bit faster. This would put Tim behind until he had time to research the new techs, but by that point he was already having to divert his villagers away from gathering to try and stop the militia horde.
I can see them pulling it back to 20% or something and trying to make it more balanced. I mean give it time for people to prepare counters. But even rushing defensive towers is risky because the goth player could just bluff fast castle.
Cant they just have free loom or something? That would give them a fighting chance in dark age and be a less powerfull buff to their economy than 35% off clubby bois in every age (i know thats not a straight up eco buff, but that adds up over time quite a lot).
@@Hjortur95 yee. Aztecs have quite a few good bonuses, including eco. I just want it to be balanced and i cant think of a good way to do that besides making their dark age more difficult to raid. Im sure this is what the devs are struggling with as well.
stream: New goths are like corona virus!
viper: I wouldn't take it that far
also viper: New goths are just cancer...
haha yeah, multiple times. If this were Dutch it'd probably be demonetized..
So apparently corona is worse than cancer according to biper
The fatality rate of the goths Is high - The fatality rate of the Corona virus is low, so not a true comparison
Corona might spread like a motherfucker but cancer actually kills
@@khatack but both the cure is almost as bad as the disease, if not worse
Before:
Q)How to beat a goth player?
A: Don't let them boom. Rush them and keep up the pressure
Now
A:You can't.
Im just a 1400 aoe2de pleb, but I really dont find Goths THAT hard. Maybe if you are in Vipers level, but not against other plebs. Everyone goes yolo drush into like 30 maa. I usually just wall up and go archers. You will have a faster castle age time, better economy and you know their strat so it is easy to counter
@@magiking96 Untill they stop being viper fanbois and make 3-5 militia and go for a fast castle. Then make a mango or 2 with longswords. Have fun against that with archers
@@magiking96 the fact that you had to mention "plebs" says everything.
@@simhanssens7331 Ehh that sounds super easy to counter tbh... Mass archers and a few knights
magiking96 Really depends on their micro in my opinion, also it’s not a good idea to invest into archers against Goths unless you’re sure it’ll be a quick game
Finally goths counter Mayans, Britons ... and everyone else
goths were always considered as a direct counter to mayans and britons
amiir miinavand94 ... and everyone else.
Goth boom is unstoppable got to kill em quicker must atlest kick em before imperium
Yeah if there is a pocket goth you've probably lost the match before it started.
@@torinjones3221 not if your pocket is a good infantry siege civs. Like celts or slavs
So this is what the Area 51 raid was supposed to look like.
Goths doing Naruto run
"Welcome to Goth Nothing. Everything outside your TC-range is Goth Militia."
I see one of those "Goths are a perfectly balanced civ with no exploits" meme videos coming
@sir fap a lot 110% sure he's gona do a vid about this.
the RTS vultures are already swooping down from the sky to extract as little comedy as possible from the topic
The guy doesn't know how to play the game though.
I dont think Spiffing Brit is skilled enough to exploit this bonus..
thank's for shouting this out, I just have to prepare me a fresh cup of yorkshire tea now. lovely!
god bless the queen
Imagine Hoang with the new goths. I'm not sure the world is ready...
11111 trueeeeee
Patch was released for tournament tbh
P2w
Funny enough he doesn't like it 11
edit: or at least not as much as he like Celts
Thats the end
Advancing through ages is so overrated... Also, thats how Rome felt the Goth invasion, horrifying
How dare you call my brothers 'stupid'.
Your time is over,now be obey the three handed swordsman.
Persians: I don't even know who You are
Viper: Is this what you want?!?
Me: Yes.
this xD
Gonna call it now - they're gonna do the same thing with the bonus as they have with every other bonus: make it a slightly increasing discount every age with a small 5-15% discount in Dark Age.
So exactly how they were in AoKs
This is why nobody wants to buy DE. Nobody is interested in being screwed around with as the guinea pig in some idiots meta experiment. This is why "evolving meta" is retarded nonsense. I _like_ having my years of experience mean something, and not have to recalibrate my understanding of the game every time some idiot gets a wild hair up his ass to make a game changing alteration nobody asked for.
Finally, the "Keep sending players onto the field until we have more than them." Goth dream is alive!
Viper: pop blocked on 55 pop
Also Viper: Is dark age.
6:21 GENERAL KENOBI
I'm too late !
you are a *bold* one
@@Ghostofpast "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!!"
So civilized.
1111
That was awesome, can't wait for everyone to finally have goth mirrormatches
let the mass infantry wars commence!
Oh caveman blood bath. My favorite.
"er hat man at arms gemacht" xD german fan service ^^
4:26 In case you're wondering... that little hill micro there is only part of the reason the rest of us plebs just wouldn't stand a chance...
Also, kinda fitting for the Goths to be clubbing people to death before they have time to tech up...
10:41 Sparta!
Oh My *Goth*
So they all wanted a goth girlfriend and now they dont want goths anymore?
Hippocrits
When you can proof a bad change in just 14 minutes.
Royale there's no bad change, goth were supposed to be unbeatable
George Ivory that's not true, the game is about balance :o
@@barbarianjk2355 that's not true the game is about letting the goths win.
Exceeder No no no my friend. It's about letting my llama army win.
no no, it's about letting DauT win
12:18 At this point, with that army he could have gone directly to the TC, and he would have taken it down
OMG, never played Goths before, I'm a mediocre player, and I just started using this strat all on my own and now Goths are now listed as my best civ. This is OP'd AF.
10:56 Google thinks that the viper says "at a better van": when you activae subtext :Q
Nice presentation of the classic 2 barracks 60 pop feudal build.
When you buy de, do you automaticly get all campains?
I mean age if kings, african kingdoms etc.
Yes all of them are included
Yes! Plus the new DE campaigns
Yeah and all those stupid patches every month included too. Thats why i stopped play dota2, new rules every now and then.
@@taintedPot want a tissue mate?
Джон Смит You want to play on the same patch forever or something?
Well done :D
I think low elo players will suck with Goth Drush. Really good players however will go crazy.
aiaiaiai, i see the video is only 13mins long, i guess i know how that ends... poor guy :D
It seems that goth dark age bonus would be nerfed or removed if things are going out of hand.
Lithuanians can still do a crazy drush though right?
Estelle Bright Nope, that drush put back your eco way behind. And drush doesn’t actually slow down your opponents eco that much.
LALIT SINGH RANA I disagree .. drush is a very strong strategy because it forces action from opponents so even if didn’t delay the opponent, they will have to create a counter unit like scouts archers or even m@arms which means you will have a time to create a counter strategy
ahmed elakad 3 min in when all his vills are under his TC. I don’t think he needs and immediate response for your 3 militia. Also resources well spend, good job.
@@lalitsinghrana4234 Lithuanian drush doesn't delay your eco at all if done right. And it can really mess up your opponent if you arrive before loom. If you kill a vill in early dark age that's literally hundreds of res by castle age. Hell even early loom is a huge hit to your eco
thenayancat It does when you are putting your wood in barracks before lumber and mill. Also, if defended perfectly from drush, your opponent doesn’t lose a single vil. And your resources are down the drain. Again, resources well spend.
The Age of Empires is over! The Age of Goths starts NOW!
After I watch Da Viper I play really well for about an hour then I fall back to my usual mediocrity, the man is a sharp fellow.
sounds like cocaine. 20 mins and all the magic is gone. another line, same experience.
Ok, some phrases from the late 90th and early 00th in AoK:
"You can counter the Flush"
"You can beat Huns in 1vs1 on Arabia with any Civ"
LOL!
This will lead to Goth vs Goth wars. Will be interesting to watch.
So, does anyone knows what "all my units are ble" means?
I don't think it was addressed evaaa.
Lost two games on arabia vs Goths playing as Mongols. I knew the opponent strategy and still, I failed to counter it. The drush didn't kill my vills, however some of them couldn't work - they had to repair walls/buildings. I went archers and cleared the militia, then went straight to the opponent's base. They were walled or making defensive towers, so I couldn't harm them much. They went castle with castle drop in their base and then they started to produce huskarls which I countered with knights. Then they added halbs and I was dead. What should I do? How to counter huskarls/halbs as mongols?
*Romans enjoying the Iron age* : finely the bronze age is over
*Goths bringing the Dark age* : Surprise motherfuc****!!!
After Dark age: Ok Let us change our name as Byzantines or else we would be drubbed by the cr** goths
INB4 this civ bonus is changed to 15% in dark, 20% in feudal, 25% in Castle and 30% in imperial.
Chat : why is there no score?
Biper : *because Im a pleb*
ok what are that christmast boxes near the mill and at the town centre?
You've played 13mins to die like this?!
I totally agree with you. I think they had to be buffed in a different way. Maybe get thumb ring?
man, that was amazing, I am new to all this now I understand how good viper is. Way to make a statement
I still don't think this is too OP because it can be countered through walls and archers. Had Tim massed 5-10 archers before sending them out, he could have just started micro-ing and one-shotting the militia.
Exactly and walling is important. Only reason opponent would pick goths in open map is this so you can just full wall your base early on and then goths (still) got nothing. Thus I'm sure this won't be viable in tournaments but we will see (if pros actually even bothers to try it there that is)
If you really have to wall and defend against Goths early game, there is no chance that you can counter them at any other point of the game with absolutely any civ.
He may have been struggling to gather the wood to mass archers. He had to spend a bit having his workers try to fix his buildings
"i don't think this is OP because you have to spend all your wood to defend against goths in the early game"
galaxy brain take
Except it's unreasonable to get all the walls up before the drush hits without signicantly hurting your eco, plus the Goth player can just adapt and only make 5 milita or something and going FC. Normally archers are way too slow of a strat to counter FC, and if you also have to invest into wall you can't expect to ever get to FC before a good Goths player. Once Goths get free boom, it's gg for any civ
Great counter to noburu inca rush
Pro: You gotta kill Goth before Castle.
New Goth: No u.
There are SOOO many way one could go about making this balance change, none of which are straight forward. The civ either needs to be weaker at late game in exchange for early game power, or there needs to be some major downsides to Dark Age units for goths so that their unit volume are counteracted by low unit quality (making a good early macro the key).
But left unchecked, this bonus could turn into (if it hasn't already) a pre-nerf StarCraft 1 Zergling Rush.
goths are so op especially in the imperial age with perfusion and elite you can just build lots of barracks and just spam your huskarls
WHAT HAPPNED??! hahaha so frustrating coming form the out side ...
Gotta say. I was pretty entertained.
Would it change things if the civ bonus where 35% cheaper food until Feudal age? That means no gold savings until the next age
Why is that scout looking like the aoe1de scout.. Change the militia to clubman also..lmao
Viper, what would you do to defend this?
what is the build order for this?
what do you guys think of goth getting supplies instead?
but it applies before their reduction?
Might be cool, although I personally think that something like hunters not needing to drop of their food or something similar would be more appropriate for the Goths
This is what I want.
I think something like "hunters don't need to drop off food" would be a nice little bonus to replace the dark age infantry flood.
DommHavai Pretty OP on maps like Steppe
Delay might be from the new chat filter
To judge accurately that this was overpowered buff you should play against a solid and fast player like Hera. In fact, I invite you to try it against him where he has the right to choose a civilization that counters the goths and we can judge from there.
Exactly, people are freaking out about this, but we've only seen it against unprepared players who made questionable decisions.
Notice the nearly equal amount of villagers but the resource differences due to idling.
@Viper, I wonder why is the new Goths bonus so important for this strategy. Say you try this with celts or other civ, how should it be countered ? I agree that without discount, one can counter this by doing the same, but is there another way ? Otherwise, why is it not meta ? Is the discount really making this pass the cost-efficiency threshold ? (Hope my question is clear)
13:20 Do I not entertain you?!
Spectacular Gothic Mastapiece, surpassing the likes of the Notre-Dame.
Gothic Flood, now available in a Dark Age near you!
I mean of coarse the best player out there can demonstrate how OP something is. Put this into the hands of someone average and all of a sudden it's just "good". A decent wall and a couple archers can handle this no issue. Or at least contain it long enough to not be a big problem.
Yep. Viper even made pre-buff Khmer look "OP" with his mastapizzas.
No one:
Viper: I have wood
i dont know why top players dont use towers to defend, a couple of towers in strategic spots surrounded by houses and only siege can bother u
Did you see what Tim did on his lumbercamp? Did you also see how useless it is against bunch of m@a?
Also tower cost 125 stones, you can only build 1 unless you shift some vills into stone which is stupid if you are into defending your area with towers, might as well put those vills normally on gold, woods and foods, get archers, fight back the invaders.
@@CrnaStrela i agree but towers surrounded by houses are impossible to take down without siege so it's a good investment in feudal
Merry Christmas
This is fine (insert image of dog drinking in burning house)
A skirm or 2 along with your massive army to hit walled areas would have been really good.
I even successfully drushed in BF 1v1 ... you can make the barracks even sooner and get those militia out when ur like 15 vils.
What did they expect honestly
I'd still lose playing as the new Goths! :(
no ofense, but tim made questionable decisions. Spending 220 food and 80 gold for 2 maa and making the first archer at 14 minutes when he got to feudal at 9?
Goths can finally breathe in early game
Jarl Balgruuf He was still completely dominated. It’s not like viper was bringing his A game micro. He had 40 maa, there was no way to stop that with five extra archers.
Tim was caught off guard, which is partly why he got dominated so easily, but at this point you can't expect him to magically have the eco to place archery ranges and produce archers when he is having to wall and getting his gold denied. Even if he had expected this though, there is no counter play except Goths mirror.
@@lamegamer4607 I'd like to see fast feudal + archers with better walling before calling it completely OP.
Yes. This may need balance, but it's not broken. It just finally punishes the idea that military doesn't matter in the first age and a half. If quickwalling were finally patched out, we could have a different discussion.
@@retrofly9 Fast feudal + archers is too slow for this, in fact, fast feudal + archers is too slow vs full wall fc which I learned the hard way. That's why you open with M@a unless you know your opponent is going feudal and you can pull it off
T90 might concidere to Global ban Goth in HC3 ?_?
Tbh just make the buff start at 20 and climb up to 35 and it should balance the civ, right?
Personally I would go 5 15 25 35
@@SephonDK 20 was really just an example, i did no math on how many militia less that would be
@@Booklat1 Oh I know, don't worry :)
What is "24"?
So really this is the equivalent of the 10 pool in SC2? I'm sure people will find a way to deal with it.
Co-Cast with T90 for the hidden cup
Hoang's newer favorite civ
Goths Drush VS Incas villager rush lets go !!!!!
Grush vs Noboru Rush, finally a potential counter!
as a noob i would like to see a BO3 with viper against goth, different strats, different civs, so one could say 'if you'd be suprior, this is how one could beat them'
i also have some questions to the game statistics: y the big food difference (1k)? i would expect tim to collect faster or more bc the vills in his tc are probably his most saves - or was it just bc viper was so heavy on farms to get & maintain his army / flood of destruction? would this be an opportunity to turn against the early rush? like super-aggressive play with (boar-)laming and delaying food eco while boom behind & get to st like archers?
and is the kill-death ratio bugged?
PS: HC3!! :)
Late comment, but I would expect Viper to get more food in the short term. While Tim was researcing the Feudal age, he had to stop producing villagers. Possibly he even stopped villager production briefly just to hit the Feudal age a bit faster. This would put Tim behind until he had time to research the new techs, but by that point he was already having to divert his villagers away from gathering to try and stop the militia horde.
So I recognize that it's SUPER strong and needs adjusting, but I still love it. haha
What buff did they get?
Hope goths get a hotfix before HC3 or just a straight up ban every game.
Goths will be 100% banned every game.
Banning is gay
Nah, T90 wants this. This is what viewers love to see.
It’s a dream come true to see Goths like this!
Why the hell were they given 35% cheaper infantry?! what were the devs thinking?!
That scout model animation makes the horse look like he's limping
what is the bonus?
I can see them pulling it back to 20% or something and trying to make it more balanced. I mean give it time for people to prepare counters. But even rushing defensive towers is risky because the goth player could just bluff fast castle.
Now is hard to see if it's an unfair Goth advantage or if is just Viper forgetting to be humble.
Viper: Is this what you want?! Are you not entertained?! Lmao
*_KNEEL FOR THE SWAAAAARM!_*
I once saw militia rush in my dreams... it was a terrible nightmare...
This bonus was so powerful!
1:12 Profanity filter strikes again!
Maybe only increasing attack bonus vs buildings would be legit
Cant they just have free loom or something? That would give them a fighting chance in dark age and be a less powerfull buff to their economy than 35% off clubby bois in every age (i know thats not a straight up eco buff, but that adds up over time quite a lot).
thats the aztecs buff which was already way too much
@@Hjortur95 yee. Aztecs have quite a few good bonuses, including eco. I just want it to be balanced and i cant think of a good way to do that besides making their dark age more difficult to raid. Im sure this is what the devs are struggling with as well.
would've liked a small intro where you explain what's this all about for us casuals :)
EDIT: about the changes to goths / the playstyle :D
Cue Hera playing Goths all the time.
I love Goths. Not sure about full drush now
6:55 Vipers deutsch ist very good :D
i was told 3 militia is the optimal amount for a drush