ATC testimony exclusive for VASAviation- "I appreciate that. Yes there was an upset PC-12 pilot when I was extremely busy and keeping him and all of the other A/C separated. I don’t know if you need permission to make a replay but you definitely have my approval if you were going to make one. I think it might help pilots see what all is going on with the whole sector and to be patient and sometimes they can’t get exactly what they want but we will try and keep them safe"
I've never known a PC-12 pilot _without_ an unnecessary attitude. I'm sure they're out there, I just haven't seen one yet. Like a working BMW turn signal etc. Good job ATC.
That job seems to me like juggling and spinning plates at the same time, without letting anything run into anything else. If that pilot is so frustrated flying into busy airspace, maybe he should stick to less congested areas.
@@Markle2k Maybe ATC was feeling sad from the mean pilot. Other pilots counter this with shower of compliments, boosting ATC ego and allowing him to land aeroplanes with no crashes. Passengers survive and see families once more
guy in tin can might have been running low on fuel and for him being in a busy sky is probably stressful - possibly going into panic mode. Some folks are terrified of bees, too.
God i hate it when ATC is separating me from other aircraft and keeping me safe in one of the most complex and congested airspaces in the world... I mean the nerve.
I rewatched it to see what 8SR was talking about and he was being directed to fly in areas really soon after other, larger aircraft had just flown past. I don't know how much that would have affected his aircraft but rewatching has helped me understand that 8SR may have had a valid complaint. At 3:48, SWA2863 is at 6,000 feet flying West. N628SR is also at 6,000 feet flying South and flies right through that area less than 30 seconds later.
If the ATC is talking to a different aircraft immediately after talking to another, that's probably a good indication that he's busy AF. Like read the room. Throwing a tantrum isn't magically going to clear the skies for you.
Even though ATC and pilots can sometimes get testy with one another, it was great to hear all the other pilots sticking up for a very busy controller doing his best to keep them all safe.
As someone who spent many years working in retail, as soon as I heard "this is unacceptable" I started getting flashbacks. I was waiting for him to say "i want to speak to your manager!"
that's exactly what "imma give you a call later" means, the facility phone numbers are public and he could in principle complain to supervisors/managers if he really wanted to
8SR is an idiot. Controller trying to keep aircraft from colliding in busy airspace and this moron seems to feel that airliners should be vectored around him. Even more stupid is that he cancels flight following is this congested airspace. Its not just mid-airs you have to worry about, but wake turbulence from aircraft that passed a mile or two away a few minutes ago. This guy will end up in an NTSB report with his entitled attitude.
think your comments reflect yuor own attitude. guy in the tin can 8SR could also just be getting panicky or short on fuel. He's on the ground safely and that's all tht matters.
@ardeladimwit That's when you speak up, not cancel. If you're in trouble ATC will make you the top priority, as their biggest concern is your safety. Canceling because you're low on fuel is extremely poor decision making, as you are dismissing all the help that's available to you.
@@stnkbg1 dear stinkbug (Eurygaster or otherwise) - please don't lecture me. I don't fly and the pilot in the plane doesn't hear you. the dogpiling, self-righteousness and smug superciliousness of keyboard pilots is nauseating.
Flight following is a *courtesy service* offered by ATC. In a busy airspace, controllers will often deny a FF request because of the increased workload and risk it poses. It's a nice service, but can place undue burden on controllers... my 2 cents is file an IFR flight plan if you are planning to fly through busy airspace. The controller was **ACES** here -- major kudos!!
I always love when these videos come out because when there’s one negative Nancy, a bunch of other pilots jump on to tell the controller they’re doing a good job.
That was the perfect response by the controller. Don’t engage, ignore him unless he gets disruptive. I wonder if that was the pilots first time in a busy area? God help him if he goes to New York.
my only question is, why did he keep the pilot in this sort of area??? I mean, should the pilot not be vectored somewhere outside of the landing path of a major airport? the fact is, whatever the reason, there was no sane excuse for the PC 12 to have been flying head-on in this sort of flight corridor.... feels sort of like riding a bike down the center of a freeway in the wrong direction!
@@stanislavkostarnov2157believe it or not, GA pilots hate that too. Anything other than direct while everyone else gets vectored out of their way isn’t good enough for them.
@@stanislavkostarnov2157 you just cannot do that in the Bay Area. There are 8 airports, three of them major. Hayward departures have to be below 1500 because we’re only 6 miles from Oakland airport. This airspace is too crowded to be a shithead on the radio.
If I was an air traffic controller, planes colliding and all kinds of fatal accidents would be routine. I'm overwhelmed watching 5 minutes of that. Props to ATC. Pilatus guy should move to North Dakota or something.
As a lowly private pilot in a non-congested part of the country I’m still always in awe of the professionalism and patience the vast majority of ATC have. They’ve got a tough job and they’re keeping us all safe and really deserve a whole lot of respect.
Loved hearing the other pilots telling him "good job." He sounded overwhelmed and inexperienced. But the one pilot didn't need to add to his stress by being a jerk. I'm not a pilot, but I'm pretty sure that just creates a dangerous situation when emotions and pissing contests happen on the frequency.
We call ATC's attitude "MATURITY"! It's not worth wasting time and energy with a person who just wants to fight... He gave the information he needed, ignored the complaints and did his job carefully and safely! Excellent attitude!
As a filthy casual, I had to look up "flight following". The page I was reading says availability is dependent on controller workload and lists four things that could prevent the controller from providing it. This controller was dealing with three of the four. I'm with the controller.
Last month I was headed east and the morning departures from SAC were headed southeast one after the other. Called for FF and Norcal said call back in 10. I wasn't at all surprised, it wasn't a long flight so I skipped the FF. On the way back it was still busy so I didn't ask. Was monitoring norcal though and got pointed out to another plane. Told them I'd be descending shortly and wouldn't be a factor. Norcal thanked me for monitoring the channel. They help when they are able.
@@St8ks ATC did nothing antagonistic or unprofessional, unlike the pilot here. ATC was just busy and trying his best to get everyone where they needed to be as safely as can be. Yeah, some GA craft got neglected while he's running a mile a minute with commercial traffic. Bro did not need to take that personally and get his feelings hurt and act like a f***ing child on freq, taking up valuable air with his senseless boohooing that no one needed to hear
I guess the jerk in a $3m 250kt turboprop on VFR flight following was sad because he didn’t get priority handling to scoot ahead of the commoners flying commercial. He probably landed and stewed all the way home to Atherton.
I hate when people act like having money is worthy of some sort of denunciation of their character. In my admittedly anecdotal life experience, assholes are present in all tax brackets and the ratio seems fairly equal across the board. Now if you start getting into those on the Forbes top 100 list that might change but not really outside of that extreme. For the record... I am not wealthy, sadly.
@@The_Noticer_of_Things That anecdotal sentiment would be nice if literally everything in US culture didn't incentivize using wealth as power to move to the front of the line and avoid the ramifications of one's mistakes. Especially in privilege-rich private aviation, it's common sense for the rest of us to presume what's going on here.
I used to be a tower controller in the Sacramento Valley when NorCal TRACON was Sacramento Approach just down the road in Rio Linda, our BRITE display was slaved to one of their scopes, and I went to night school with one of their controllers. They were outstanding to work with. I was also a private pilot back then so interacted on the other side of the mic, and the very same. It's what led me to an FAA career at a very busy enroute Center for 23 years. Oh, and I had another classmate from Beale AFB that ended up direct hiring to Bay TRACON and ran into him at the Academy in OKC. He was flabbergasted by how busy it was there. Ain't no time to get emotional when lives are on the line, Mr. PC-12...
The fact the Pilatus pilot was whining in such busy airspace seems to reveal his lack of insight and situational awareness. Surely he could hear how hard the controller was working the other aircraft. Get a grip fella.
California, Florida, Houston, Chicago, and New York, add in DC area too. Those controllers are amazing! The amount of traffic they have to deal with is amazing. I flew into Newark yesterday. When contacting approach, I couldn't get a word in. I read the room and stayed quiet until they called me. I didn't complain, I didn't throw a hissy fit on the radio, it was obvious, there was a lot of traffic. The controller messed up a few times with callsigns because my airline had several flights arriving at the same time into EWR and all of our callsigns were very similar (I was 282, others were 292, 284...). at one point, the controller cleared us for the approach but was really calling 292... We corrected him politely about the mistake and he laughed and corrected himself. No need for what this pilot did on the radio.
“Hey Buffy, I just landed. Real dickhead controller I had to deal with, I’ll tell you about it later. Now I’m off to Taco Bell to tell the stoned 20 year old at the register that the amount of cheese on my taco is unacceptable.“
Radio is 1920s technology, still used in 2024 for weak reasons. We shouldn't be settling with traditional methods when innovation can make a safer flying environment.
The controller did an amazing job. with how busy norcal is with Oakland and San Fransico in the area this is textbook. and if it's so busy, you can expect a flightpath that is not ideal or direct.
ATC did a fantastic job keeping aircraft in their respective safety margins. Seems that the Pilatus was at an overload point and bailed - which doesn't make sense because in that environment a pilot benefits from having an extra set of eyes on you. Excellent work, ATC. I guess it got too hot in the kitchen for the private pilot.
Sierra Romeo needs to quit whining. Better yet, stay out of that busy airspace. You've got traffic going into both of Oakland's airports North and South, traffic into Hayward, and traffic into San Carlos. I guess another controller was handling traffic into San Jose, SFO and Palo Alto. This guy reminds me of the people driving expensive cars on the freeway expect you to get out of their way if you drive a Honda.
That’s way too damn busy juggling & keeping all those aircraft in the air! I hope the ATC’s in the pipeline of finishing their training increases soon so that those ATC’s retiring don’t continue to outnumber the newbies!
Hi, folks. Non-AV community civilian here. As it seems the pilot in question is responding to somemofmthe comments here, please take the opportunity to be as professional and objective here as you encourage taking place in the cockpit, tower, terminal and air. VAS, it might be good to get a comment response from Bonanza to pin, no?
I appreciate the ATC not losing his cool as we have seen some others do when questioned by pilots and being asked for a phone number because a pilot thought they were being jerked around just for shits and giggles. Just kept focused on the job.
Curious what day this was, had an TA from a PC12 apparently not talking to anyone while departing NUQ the other day, wouldn’t surprise me if it was the same guy later deciding he wanted to leave San Carlos and go on his way without talking to anyone
@@BonanzaPilot And you apologised and acknowledged that FF is at ATC discretion when they are busy as per every written process there is. Right? Might be nice to also send them an apology letter and a box of chocolates given your terrible and unprofessional behaviour and not knowing basics.
The PC12 pilot should stick to flying in uncongested back country fields. Clearly he is not cut out for the high volume traffic areas. Not everyone is.
This controller was handed a bag of sh*t and he worked his tail off vectoring and using altitude to separate the mix of VFR and IFR traffic. 8SR is a tool. If he thinks he can do better then put in for the job bc we are HIRING!!!
Hahaha, I'd love to see the D-Bag in the Pilatus get linked to this comment section so he can explain to everyone why he was the only jackwagon in the airspace that had a problem
@@BonanzaPilotyou got some balls replying. I’ll give you that. You may have been thrown in wake turbulence, and that is something that should be addressed properly. The big thing everyone here is flaming you for is acting like a 2 year old, not a professional. Had you said “can I call the tower later” and left it at that, that would have been better. But instead you had to be an insecure bully putting him down. It is really hard to be sympathetic to you when you act like a child.
Also, you’re creating a safety issue by poor radio etiquette. You were stomping on others transmissions. What if someone had yelled mayday? You can be right and still be wrong.
VFR Flight following isn't even a top priority in the first place. He's lucky he was given flight following service given the fact that ATC was juggling a handful of airliners and IFR traffic at the same time.
I've been spun VFR in this area quite a bit of late. I think it comes down to workload and being able to effectively communicate what's possible and what's wanted from both sides. Why is the sector lining up oak arrivals on the north plan while also coordinating ksql tower handoffs? There just isn't enough available mic time during a southwest crunch. The facts are that VFR traffic flows between the peninsula and Livermore past SUNOL. And the OAK arrivals cross that path. Sometimes the controllers act like there's a grade crossing, and want to stop all the vfr traffic to let the train go by. I think this is a developing problem, and there should be some outreach and collaboration to figure out how to keep these two flows away from each other without forcing someone out to Gilroy to get underneath a shelf of IFR arrivals just to go back to PAO. What's going to be the outcome of letting this pattern go unaddressed? This is not an isolated incident. I'm not faulting either party here; obviously everyone's just trying to do their jobs. But if this keeps happening, and make no mistake it's quite regular, the outcome will be fewer VFR aircraft participating in flight following, and that is an L for everyone.
I saw where the FAA is doing some investigation on lining up all the near miss takeoff/landing issues in the news lately. I wonder if you could file a complaint or suggestion? Since these things will be under greater scrutiny it might be reviewed?
8SR was like "yeah I don't want flight following anymore in the busiest airspace in the country while my controller is actively separating me from traffic"
I know that this is not in line with most of the comments here, but here is a bit of a defense of 8SR. He is in a single engine turboprop at 6500. The Southwest 737 is one mile from him at 7000. It looks like he is going to cross under and behind the 737 flightpath. He is very concerned about the 737's wake turbulence. It appears to me that is why he drops flight following, so he can maneuver to avoid the 737's wake turbulence. Wake turbulence from an airliner can flip small planes onto their backs and I fear it greatly. I think you can hear a bit of that stress in his voice. I don't know if controllers think too much about wake turbulence, especially in a very busy airspace like this one, but believe me when you are crossing behind and below an airliner's path in a small plane you are thinking about it a lot! Nonetheless, I do think he acted childishly. He could have said "deviating right to avoid potential wake turbulence". He also shows a lack of situational awareness. If you look at 8SR's flight history the plane flies a lot in and out of San Carlos. It may be a charter aircraft or someone who really likes to fly. He should know that he will cross the arrival corridor for Oakland and Hayward, both busy airports with a lot of airliner and GA traffic and if he is really concerned about wake turbulence, just pick another routing that avoids it altogether. My final comment is the controller did do a great job. I fly in extremely busy airspace in SoCal and I am always amazed at the patience and discipline of the controllers.
When this got posted, 8SR had just landed at my home airport (not same day as this incident).. I was 10 min away, I’d wished I’d run down there to get a hot take. Sounds like he was worried about wake turbulence. That plane is in and out of that area often. He should know better. I know coming into that area to terminate FF so the controllers can be better served elsewhere. I’ll just listen on frequency for any advisories as I know that airspace, where I need to be, especially in VFR rules. Because the RNAV certainly isn’t from the direction he was coming from and heading towards. …I’m sure he’ll chime in here. We can only hope. But nobody wants to be on this wall. Keep it up Vas! Juan!
Response was posted in here would be nice if VAS pinned it. To direct response to you. When I toured the Nor-Cal facility we talked about if they'd rather have us just go through there 1200 and they said no, they prefer to talk to us. IMO, it would be hazardous to stop getting flight following because a controller decided to put me on the internet the one time in 5 years I had an issue.
Pilatus pilot is definitely a cry baby, no disagreement there. However! The controller could have issued a reason for the initial vector. Heading 160 vector for sequence. When he's closer to final call traffic to follow etc. By no means required, but I often tell vfr aircraft landing my airport that it's a vector for sequence. My airport isn't even close to as busy as Hayward or Oakland, but it definitely helps paint the picture. Just a thought from another controller. I still think this controller did a fantastic job, I had no idea NorCal was this complex!
It's very telling that while the private pilot was having a tantrum, the professional airline pilots were all very appreciative of the work that controller was doing and how difficult it is.
To be fair, ATC let planes get clumped up there and the Pilatus pilot had to avoid wake turbulence. That's enough to make any pilot get nervous. It sounded like ATC wasn't paying adequate attention to that sector. ATC has a hard job, but if a pilot thinks that ATC is putting them in a dangerous situation they have the responsibility to speak up. That being said, "He's not" was just petty and childish. I also wonder how the handling was before he switched to this frequency.
ATC was doing his job. However, he was also keying over other aircraft and as an ham radio operator, if I would hear this with my background and theoretically flying a plane yes, I think I would be a little nervous myself.
Let this be a warning if you get flight following. A GA aircraft are likely to get deprioritized. They have that right to keep you in flight following and there is nothing you can do about it. But maybe next time don't get flight following and let them guess at what your doing.
If the Pilatus pilot really called ATC as he said he was going to, the FAA should have offered to let him sit at a radar training simulator terminal and see how well he does keeping everyone safe
To the pilot of N628SR - I hope you feel suitably embarrassed by your behavior in that airspace. You are wandering along amongst the big dogs, wanting to quit flight following whilst your controller is trying to keep you safe. Have a little respect and ask for lower if you need it, not whining on the freq.
Seems like a great controller. I can't imagine handling all the inbounds to Oakland plus VFR traffic to the smaller airports. Layman's opinion here, but seems like an opportunity to improve arrival procedures (e.g., shifting so VFR traffic isn't traversing inbound commercial traffic to Oakland at similar altitudes)
There are a lot of mountains and only so many different routes due to the prevailing winds from west to east that you need to face into for landing. If fixing it was obvious the agencies would have done it already.
The PC12 did get vectored behind a B737 and only 500 feet below, but he needs to realize how difficult controllers have it in busy airspaces... I've got the utmost respect for controllers. I don't know how the wake turbulence would impact a pc12 like that but if it was that big of a problem he needed to take evasion action and explain that later on the ground.
@@williamcarr8484I hope they pointed him to some lessons on when to shut up and listen on a busy frequency. If the controller is talking like an auctioneer, that is not the time for random chatter. Be brief, be brilliant, and be gone!
The entitlement from some of these pilots who think being VFR means you can just do whatever you want regardless of other traffic is unreal. Should’ve of cancelled him earlier and had tower kick him back to approach for sequencing with other faster traffic.
Mr. Pilatusturbine couldn't be bothered to fit into the busy airspace. What a primadonna. He's going to end up in a midair collision and/or smoking hole in the ground if he keeps that up. Anyway, from the looks of it he was hoping for a clearance through bravo to Shallow Alto or San Carlos, but his arrival was turbine-style, i.e. he was pretty much guaranteed to get routed around and under the SFO arrivals corridor. Perhaps some day he figures out that to get a shortcut in the Bay Area requires flying like a bugswatter, low and slow, which comes with its own set of problems.
The pilot of 8SR is the typical unprofessional, entitled “the world revolves around me” pilot that unfortunately is very common on the West Coast. It is sad to say this a regular occurrence. Maybe be part of the solution and not part of the problem.
The ATC did a heck of a job managing the volume he was managing. Whether it was sufficiently and equally optimal for all traffic really is by-the-by. There's a level of traffic and stress in the voice from ATC above which if you're not an emergency you accept that sometimes you'll be a "winner" and sometimes you'll be a "loser" in terms of what you'd prefer to happen. If you feel the balance is wrong, then barring an emergency seek to review it on the ground and on the ground only. Pilot's grievance may have been valid - I don't know either way - but expressing it in that situation when the sector was clearly being run at its limits, was absolutely not on.
So I don't know if it was me, but I honestly think the most unprofessional part of this was all the walking on each other going on with the radio... At points I couldn't tell if it was ATC jumping on too quickly, or someone just trying to talk to NORCAL, but even in these situations, I would think a little bit of small patience is needed... IFR is more controlled than FF VFR, but if spacing is an issue, then NORCAL should have added just a little bit more spacing in-between the planes to lessen the workload going on here... Also of note, the pilots "sticking up" for NORCAL, are also clogging the frequency, when they could have done it on the handle-transfer at the end like they did anyway, no need to "call out" the "bad actor" clogging the frequency... Also, as it stands, couldn't those pilots file paperwork on the pilot of the Pilatus with the FAA, on top of the controller? Maybe someone with a little bit more experience and understanding can decipher why I'm feeling that there was a little bit of unprofessionalism all around...
What a jerk of a pilot. Busy airspace, one controller. Just cancel flight follow and fly VFR. A good VFR pilot knows when controllers are to busy to deal with them. Some controllers will even flat out reject flight following if it's too busy.
ATC testimony exclusive for VASAviation- "I appreciate that. Yes there was an upset PC-12 pilot when I was extremely busy and keeping him and all of the other A/C separated. I don’t know if you need permission to make a replay but you definitely have my approval if you were going to make one.
I think it might help pilots see what all is going on with the whole sector and to be patient and sometimes they can’t get exactly what they want but we will try and keep them safe"
Fantastic job, your talent was recognized by everyone else! 👍
Thank you for what you do and keeping us pilots safe and sorry for this spoiled idiot making your job harder.
I've never known a PC-12 pilot _without_ an unnecessary attitude. I'm sure they're out there, I just haven't seen one yet. Like a working BMW turn signal etc. Good job ATC.
That job seems to me like juggling and spinning plates at the same time, without letting anything run into anything else. If that pilot is so frustrated flying into busy airspace, maybe he should stick to less congested areas.
Did the pilot give him a call ?
If so, what was the problem ?
I love the way the controller completely ignored the whining.
that is real professionalism
Southwest did not need to be clogging up the frequency with the argument, though.
He didn't really have time to acknowledge it
@@Markle2k Maybe ATC was feeling sad from the mean pilot. Other pilots counter this with shower of compliments, boosting ATC ego and allowing him to land aeroplanes with no crashes. Passengers survive and see families once more
He had no choice bro he was on the com constantly, there was no dead air and he didnt have time for that shit.
Appreciate all the other big airlines reassuring the controller that he's doing a great job, while the guy in the aluminum can is haughty
I second that
guy in tin can might have been running low on fuel and for him being in a busy sky is probably stressful - possibly going into panic mode. Some folks are terrified of bees, too.
Whatever you may think of his aircraft, he has the same right to use the airspace that the airliners do.
Airliners are huge aluminum cans
How do you differentiate between flying aluminum cans?
God i hate it when ATC is separating me from other aircraft and keeping me safe in one of the most complex and congested airspaces in the world... I mean the nerve.
IKR! How dare him do his job properly??? We need a supervisor here to talk to.
He wasn't tho. He turned him into wake turbulence multiple times.
@CHAT362 can you do better?? Didn't think so. Pipe down. That pilot was rude!!
@@sliferxxxx Oh no. The guy that almost got killed by an incompetent controller was slightly rude about asking for a phone number.
I rewatched it to see what 8SR was talking about and he was being directed to fly in areas really soon after other, larger aircraft had just flown past.
I don't know how much that would have affected his aircraft but rewatching has helped me understand that 8SR may have had a valid complaint.
At 3:48, SWA2863 is at 6,000 feet flying West.
N628SR is also at 6,000 feet flying South and flies right through that area less than 30 seconds later.
If the ATC is talking to a different aircraft immediately after talking to another, that's probably a good indication that he's busy AF. Like read the room. Throwing a tantrum isn't magically going to clear the skies for you.
That guy got ratioed
Even though ATC and pilots can sometimes get testy with one another, it was great to hear all the other pilots sticking up for a very busy controller doing his best to keep them all safe.
😂 totally
Still doesn't mean the controller can ignore wake turbulence.
'This is unacceptable'
It was in fact, exemplary
I read this in Ron Howard's voice
@@JimboRustles most excellent
@@JimboRustlesLol I'm curious as to why you did if u don't mind taking a minute to tell me
@@thejasonknightfiascoband5099A reference to the TV show Arrested Development
Love how all the airline pilots on frequency just turn on the Pilatus as soon as he gets mad with ATC.
As someone who spent many years working in retail, as soon as I heard "this is unacceptable" I started getting flashbacks. I was waiting for him to say "i want to speak to your manager!"
that's exactly what "imma give you a call later" means, the facility phone numbers are public and he could in principle complain to supervisors/managers if he really wanted to
8SR is an idiot. Controller trying to keep aircraft from colliding in busy airspace and this moron seems to feel that airliners should be vectored around him. Even more stupid is that he cancels flight following is this congested airspace. Its not just mid-airs you have to worry about, but wake turbulence from aircraft that passed a mile or two away a few minutes ago. This guy will end up in an NTSB report with his entitled attitude.
think your comments reflect yuor own attitude. guy in the tin can 8SR could also just be getting panicky or short on fuel. He's on the ground safely and that's all tht matters.
@@ardeladimwit You keep making the same point under every comment. OK WE GET IT!
@ardeladimwit At that point he needs to declare, plus if that was the case he should’ve planned for fuel better. However it’s obviously not the case
@ardeladimwit That's when you speak up, not cancel. If you're in trouble ATC will make you the top priority, as their biggest concern is your safety. Canceling because you're low on fuel is extremely poor decision making, as you are dismissing all the help that's available to you.
@@stnkbg1 dear stinkbug (Eurygaster or otherwise) - please don't lecture me. I don't fly and the pilot in the plane doesn't hear you. the dogpiling, self-righteousness and smug superciliousness of keyboard pilots is nauseating.
Flight following is a *courtesy service* offered by ATC. In a busy airspace, controllers will often deny a FF request because of the increased workload and risk it poses. It's a nice service, but can place undue burden on controllers... my 2 cents is file an IFR flight plan if you are planning to fly through busy airspace.
The controller was **ACES** here -- major kudos!!
He's in Class B airspace. Flight Following is not optional.
Thanks
@@nocalsteve you’re correct, but granting entry in to class B is optional. The controller could have just denied the request to enter class B.
The FAA makes it clear that FF is up to the workload of the controller. But ask any ATC guy and they love to be able to control you in their airspace
@@williamcarr8484 Nice job Bill
I always love when these videos come out because when there’s one negative Nancy, a bunch of other pilots jump on to tell the controller they’re doing a good job.
The pilot community is self policing.
"I'm gonna give you a call" **nobody cares**
I just wanted to key up and say: "shut up, get off freq"
That was the perfect response by the controller. Don’t engage, ignore him unless he gets disruptive.
I wonder if that was the pilots first time in a busy area? God help him if he goes to New York.
@@dcviper985he certainly shouldn't be flying a PC12 if he's never flown into busy airspace, I would think.
Controller is literally trying to keep the PC12 separated from 737s on the arrival. Looks like some good work from atc.
He had a lot of plates spinning in the air. I agree very good job.
Thanks
my only question is, why did he keep the pilot in this sort of area??? I mean, should the pilot not be vectored somewhere outside of the landing path of a major airport?
the fact is, whatever the reason, there was no sane excuse for the PC 12 to have been flying head-on in this sort of flight corridor.... feels sort of like riding a bike down the center of a freeway in the wrong direction!
@@stanislavkostarnov2157believe it or not, GA pilots hate that too. Anything other than direct while everyone else gets vectored out of their way isn’t good enough for them.
@@stanislavkostarnov2157 you just cannot do that in the Bay Area. There are 8 airports, three of them major. Hayward departures have to be below 1500 because we’re only 6 miles from Oakland airport. This airspace is too crowded to be a shithead on the radio.
If I was an air traffic controller, planes colliding and all kinds of fatal accidents would be routine. I'm overwhelmed watching 5 minutes of that. Props to ATC. Pilatus guy should move to North Dakota or something.
As a lowly private pilot in a non-congested part of the country I’m still always in awe of the professionalism and patience the vast majority of ATC have. They’ve got a tough job and they’re keeping us all safe and really deserve a whole lot of respect.
Loved hearing the other pilots telling him "good job." He sounded overwhelmed and inexperienced. But the one pilot didn't need to add to his stress by being a jerk. I'm not a pilot, but I'm pretty sure that just creates a dangerous situation when emotions and pissing contests happen on the frequency.
Controller is absolute professional. Well done sir.
he was confusing and contradictory
"he's not" 😄 that's so petty, I love it.
We call ATC's attitude "MATURITY"! It's not worth wasting time and energy with a person who just wants to fight... He gave the information he needed, ignored the complaints and did his job carefully and safely! Excellent attitude!
As a filthy casual, I had to look up "flight following". The page I was reading says availability is dependent on controller workload and lists four things that could prevent the controller from providing it. This controller was dealing with three of the four. I'm with the controller.
Correct
Last month I was headed east and the morning departures from SAC were headed southeast one after the other. Called for FF and Norcal said call back in 10. I wasn't at all surprised, it wasn't a long flight so I skipped the FF. On the way back it was still busy so I didn't ask. Was monitoring norcal though and got pointed out to another plane. Told them I'd be descending shortly and wouldn't be a factor. Norcal thanked me for monitoring the channel. They help when they are able.
@@craigsanders6925 excellent job!
Thank you for making that airspace safer that day.
That pilot definitely needs to take a chill pill
ATC can take one to
@@St8ks ATC did nothing antagonistic or unprofessional, unlike the pilot here. ATC was just busy and trying his best to get everyone where they needed to be as safely as can be. Yeah, some GA craft got neglected while he's running a mile a minute with commercial traffic. Bro did not need to take that personally and get his feelings hurt and act like a f***ing child on freq, taking up valuable air with his senseless boohooing that no one needed to hear
@@St8ks What’d the ATC do here? He was just juggling airplanes and ignoring the pilot’s tantrum, he wasn’t out of line at all.
He got confused and took the "chilli" pill.
@@St8ks Haha we found the pilatus pilot youtube account
I guess the jerk in a $3m 250kt turboprop on VFR flight following was sad because he didn’t get priority handling to scoot ahead of the commoners flying commercial. He probably landed and stewed all the way home to Atherton.
I hate when people act like having money is worthy of some sort of denunciation of their character. In my admittedly anecdotal life experience, assholes are present in all tax brackets and the ratio seems fairly equal across the board. Now if you start getting into those on the Forbes top 100 list that might change but not really outside of that extreme.
For the record... I am not wealthy, sadly.
💀
@@The_Noticer_of_Things 😂
I'm sure his mom is proud of him, but literally nobody else cares about a Pilatus.
@@The_Noticer_of_Things That anecdotal sentiment would be nice if literally everything in US culture didn't incentivize using wealth as power to move to the front of the line and avoid the ramifications of one's mistakes. Especially in privilege-rich private aviation, it's common sense for the rest of us to presume what's going on here.
I suppose entitlement and main character syndrome still happens at 3,000 feet.
Oh, yeah.And this is that perfect example of it.
I used to be a tower controller in the Sacramento Valley when NorCal TRACON was Sacramento Approach just down the road in Rio Linda, our BRITE display was slaved to one of their scopes, and I went to night school with one of their controllers. They were outstanding to work with. I was also a private pilot back then so interacted on the other side of the mic, and the very same. It's what led me to an FAA career at a very busy enroute Center for 23 years. Oh, and I had another classmate from Beale AFB that ended up direct hiring to Bay TRACON and ran into him at the Academy in OKC. He was flabbergasted by how busy it was there. Ain't no time to get emotional when lives are on the line, Mr. PC-12...
Entitlement Airways, checking in! 😂
The fact the Pilatus pilot was whining in such busy airspace seems to reveal his lack of insight and situational awareness. Surely he could hear how hard the controller was working the other aircraft. Get a grip fella.
The Norcal controllers always do such a great job when I fly and I appreciate them a lot, I think 8SR should have some grace when they're super busy
That guys attitude will someday take him all the way to the crash site.
Bang on bro.
California, Florida, Houston, Chicago, and New York, add in DC area too. Those controllers are amazing! The amount of traffic they have to deal with is amazing. I flew into Newark yesterday. When contacting approach, I couldn't get a word in. I read the room and stayed quiet until they called me. I didn't complain, I didn't throw a hissy fit on the radio, it was obvious, there was a lot of traffic.
The controller messed up a few times with callsigns because my airline had several flights arriving at the same time into EWR and all of our callsigns were very similar (I was 282, others were 292, 284...). at one point, the controller cleared us for the approach but was really calling 292... We corrected him politely about the mistake and he laughed and corrected himself.
No need for what this pilot did on the radio.
👏👏👏👏👏
Great work ATC! Lots of blocks and kept cool.
That extra comment in a busy airspace where people were already being walked on tells me he's going to ask for the manager when he calls.
“Hey Buffy, I just landed. Real dickhead controller I had to deal with, I’ll tell you about it later. Now I’m off to Taco Bell to tell the stoned 20 year old at the register that the amount of cheese on my taco is unacceptable.“
Radio is 1920s technology, still used in 2024 for weak reasons. We shouldn't be settling with traditional methods when innovation can make a safer flying environment.
The rage from this guy…
What an entitled idiot! Super busy airspace and this twerp thinks he's priority? ATC did a great job, kudos to the other pilots who backed him up.
The controller did an amazing job. with how busy norcal is with Oakland and San Fransico in the area this is textbook. and if it's so busy, you can expect a flightpath that is not ideal or direct.
Thank you
The controller rocked it👍👍 don't let the guy with little man syndrome mess with ya!!
ATC did a fantastic job keeping aircraft in their respective safety margins. Seems that the Pilatus was at an overload point and bailed - which doesn't make sense because in that environment a pilot benefits from having an extra set of eyes on you. Excellent work, ATC. I guess it got too hot in the kitchen for the private pilot.
Sierra Romeo needs to quit whining. Better yet, stay out of that busy airspace. You've got traffic going into both of Oakland's airports North and South, traffic into Hayward, and traffic into San Carlos. I guess another controller was handling traffic into San Jose, SFO and Palo Alto. This guy reminds me of the people driving expensive cars on the freeway expect you to get out of their way if you drive a Honda.
So…. VFR wants flight following, but gets mad when separation and traffic is issued. Needs to grow up if he wants to fly with the professionals.
Love how the pros laid it on 8SR at the end. Bet he had a bad landing
That’s way too damn busy juggling & keeping all those aircraft in the air! I hope the ATC’s in the pipeline of finishing their training increases soon so that those ATC’s retiring don’t continue to outnumber the newbies!
Hi, folks. Non-AV community civilian here.
As it seems the pilot in question is responding to somemofmthe comments here, please take the opportunity to be as professional and objective here as you encourage taking place in the cockpit, tower, terminal and air.
VAS, it might be good to get a comment response from Bonanza to pin, no?
If a pilot has been bad, the controller will phone them later. But if they're REALLY bad the controller will phone VASAviation later!
I appreciate the ATC not losing his cool as we have seen some others do when questioned by pilots and being asked for a phone number because a pilot thought they were being jerked around just for shits and giggles. Just kept focused on the job.
Excellent ATC guy!
Curious what day this was, had an TA from a PC12 apparently not talking to anyone while departing NUQ the other day, wouldn’t surprise me if it was the same guy later deciding he wanted to leave San Carlos and go on his way without talking to anyone
It was probably the entitled pilot that we see here in the video that almost crashed into you
Date and time for your incident?
no, I got flight following leaving San Carlos. I spoke to Nor-Cal on the phone, we had a conversation, and moved on with my day
@@BonanzaPilotso you apologized?
@@BonanzaPilot And you apologised and acknowledged that FF is at ATC discretion when they are busy as per every written process there is. Right?
Might be nice to also send them an apology letter and a box of chocolates given your terrible and unprofessional behaviour and not knowing basics.
Professionalism at its finest with that controller.
ATC was very busy, and did a great job.
The PC12 pilot should stick to flying in uncongested back country fields. Clearly he is not cut out for the high volume traffic areas. Not everyone is.
This controller was handed a bag of sh*t and he worked his tail off vectoring and using altitude to separate the mix of VFR and IFR traffic. 8SR is a tool. If he thinks he can do better then put in for the job bc we are HIRING!!!
Filing this as one of the weirder things on UA-cam that has made me teary-eyed LOL
The Pilatus said, "I want to cancel flight following. I don't like what you're doing with things."
I'd like to see him try to walk a mile in the controller's shoes. He wouldn't make it
He should be reminded nobody liked his "doing things".
Hahaha, I'd love to see the D-Bag in the Pilatus get linked to this comment section so he can explain to everyone why he was the only jackwagon in the airspace that had a problem
He's the only one the controller endangered. Small plane needs more space to avoid wake turbulence. Unacceptable for the controller to not be aware.
It was me. Apologies as I have a tiny penis, and last got laid in 1987. It won’t happen again
I was the pilot. I didn't have a problem until I flew through the Southwest's wake turbulence.
@@BonanzaPilotyou got some balls replying. I’ll give you that. You may have been thrown in wake turbulence, and that is something that should be addressed properly.
The big thing everyone here is flaming you for is acting like a 2 year old, not a professional. Had you said “can I call the tower later” and left it at that, that would have been better. But instead you had to be an insecure bully putting him down. It is really hard to be sympathetic to you when you act like a child.
Also, you’re creating a safety issue by poor radio etiquette. You were stomping on others transmissions. What if someone had yelled mayday?
You can be right and still be wrong.
We heard you the first two times.
Yeah, the fact his temper tantrum wasn't getting him the attention he wanted just kept making him more petulant.
8SR just seemed out of it from the get go; looks like he picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines.
He sounds so SLOW
You can't always get, what you want...
But if you try sometime, you'll find, you get what you need.
@@nocalsteve As soon as I read the above comment I was going to reply with exactly this.
You can’t always get what you need…
5:22 "8SR, contact San Carlos Tower" and become their problem, not mine. 👏
I would hardly consider that a reprimand. It was just a disgruntled pilot grousing and, ultimately, appearing foolish.
Atc is so busy he doesn’t have time to argue
Great stuff from the other pilots. It's nice to be nice.
That comm traffic was melting the barrel holy moly!
VFR Flight following isn't even a top priority in the first place. He's lucky he was given flight following service given the fact that ATC was juggling a handful of airliners and IFR traffic at the same time.
I've been spun VFR in this area quite a bit of late. I think it comes down to workload and being able to effectively communicate what's possible and what's wanted from both sides. Why is the sector lining up oak arrivals on the north plan while also coordinating ksql tower handoffs? There just isn't enough available mic time during a southwest crunch.
The facts are that VFR traffic flows between the peninsula and Livermore past SUNOL. And the OAK arrivals cross that path. Sometimes the controllers act like there's a grade crossing, and want to stop all the vfr traffic to let the train go by.
I think this is a developing problem, and there should be some outreach and collaboration to figure out how to keep these two flows away from each other without forcing someone out to Gilroy to get underneath a shelf of IFR arrivals just to go back to PAO.
What's going to be the outcome of letting this pattern go unaddressed? This is not an isolated incident. I'm not faulting either party here; obviously everyone's just trying to do their jobs. But if this keeps happening, and make no mistake it's quite regular, the outcome will be fewer VFR aircraft participating in flight following, and that is an L for everyone.
I saw where the FAA is doing some investigation on lining up all the near miss takeoff/landing issues in the news lately. I wonder if you could file a complaint or suggestion? Since these things will be under greater scrutiny it might be reviewed?
The solution is to stay low out of the bravo.
8SR was like "yeah I don't want flight following anymore in the busiest airspace in the country while my controller is actively separating me from traffic"
NorCal Pilates 8SR. I’m not a Cessna, clear this traffic. I’m coming in.
Plot twist, let's check it out.
I know that this is not in line with most of the comments here, but here is a bit of a defense of 8SR. He is in a single engine turboprop at 6500. The Southwest 737 is one mile from him at 7000. It looks like he is going to cross under and behind the 737 flightpath. He is very concerned about the 737's wake turbulence. It appears to me that is why he drops flight following, so he can maneuver to avoid the 737's wake turbulence. Wake turbulence from an airliner can flip small planes onto their backs and I fear it greatly. I think you can hear a bit of that stress in his voice. I don't know if controllers think too much about wake turbulence, especially in a very busy airspace like this one, but believe me when you are crossing behind and below an airliner's path in a small plane you are thinking about it a lot!
Nonetheless, I do think he acted childishly. He could have said "deviating right to avoid potential wake turbulence". He also shows a lack of situational awareness. If you look at 8SR's flight history the plane flies a lot in and out of San Carlos. It may be a charter aircraft or someone who really likes to fly. He should know that he will cross the arrival corridor for Oakland and Hayward, both busy airports with a lot of airliner and GA traffic and if he is really concerned about wake turbulence, just pick another routing that avoids it altogether.
My final comment is the controller did do a great job. I fly in extremely busy airspace in SoCal and I am always amazed at the patience and discipline of the controllers.
When this got posted, 8SR had just landed at my home airport (not same day as this incident).. I was 10 min away, I’d wished I’d run down there to get a hot take.
Sounds like he was worried about wake turbulence. That plane is in and out of that area often. He should know better. I know coming into that area to terminate FF so the controllers can be better served elsewhere. I’ll just listen on frequency for any advisories as I know that airspace, where I need to be, especially in VFR rules. Because the RNAV certainly isn’t from the direction he was coming from and heading towards.
…I’m sure he’ll chime in here. We can only hope. But nobody wants to be on this wall.
Keep it up Vas! Juan!
Response was posted in here would be nice if VAS pinned it. To direct response to you. When I toured the Nor-Cal facility we talked about if they'd rather have us just go through there 1200 and they said no, they prefer to talk to us. IMO, it would be hazardous to stop getting flight following because a controller decided to put me on the internet the one time in 5 years I had an issue.
P12s are the BMWs of aircraft. The stereotype maps well.
You can tell be a persons voice or tone if they're a jerk or not. Was immediately apparent with 8SR. I'd prefer he give up flying!
Pilatus pilot is definitely a cry baby, no disagreement there. However! The controller could have issued a reason for the initial vector. Heading 160 vector for sequence. When he's closer to final call traffic to follow etc. By no means required, but I often tell vfr aircraft landing my airport that it's a vector for sequence. My airport isn't even close to as busy as Hayward or Oakland, but it definitely helps paint the picture. Just a thought from another controller. I still think this controller did a fantastic job, I had no idea NorCal was this complex!
Daren probably throws a fit at McDonalds when he gets the wrong dipping sauce. Make complaints off air and not in busy airspace.
The wrong dipping sauce is unacceptable, cancelling my order. I'll give you a call later.
U voluntarily eat at Mac’s u kinda deserve to be mistreated 😂
@@stevevenn1their breakfast is really good though.
Very professional controller! Didnt waste time responding to the childishness.
It's very telling that while the private pilot was having a tantrum, the professional airline pilots were all very appreciative of the work that controller was doing and how difficult it is.
To be fair, ATC let planes get clumped up there and the Pilatus pilot had to avoid wake turbulence. That's enough to make any pilot get nervous. It sounded like ATC wasn't paying adequate attention to that sector. ATC has a hard job, but if a pilot thinks that ATC is putting them in a dangerous situation they have the responsibility to speak up.
That being said, "He's not" was just petty and childish.
I also wonder how the handling was before he switched to this frequency.
Controller almost killed them. I'd be pissed too and file a nmac.
ATC was doing his job. However, he was also keying over other aircraft and as an ham radio operator, if I would hear this with my background and theoretically flying a plane yes, I think I would be a little nervous myself.
Let this be a warning if you get flight following. A GA aircraft are likely to get deprioritized. They have that right to keep you in flight following and there is nothing you can do about it. But maybe next time don't get flight following and let them guess at what your doing.
This is why Oakland needs a bravo.
If the Pilatus pilot really called ATC as he said he was going to, the FAA should have offered to let him sit at a radar training simulator terminal and see how well he does keeping everyone safe
I love that guy and the SW pilot.
ATC, you did a great job.
8SR YTA
To the pilot of N628SR - I hope you feel suitably embarrassed by your behavior in that airspace. You are wandering along amongst the big dogs, wanting to quit flight following whilst your controller is trying to keep you safe. Have a little respect and ask for lower if you need it, not whining on the freq.
Probably wouldn't be too hard to find them and message them directly.
Seems like a great controller. I can't imagine handling all the inbounds to Oakland plus VFR traffic to the smaller airports. Layman's opinion here, but seems like an opportunity to improve arrival procedures (e.g., shifting so VFR traffic isn't traversing inbound commercial traffic to Oakland at similar altitudes)
There are a lot of mountains and only so many different routes due to the prevailing winds from west to east that you need to face into for landing. If fixing it was obvious the agencies would have done it already.
It’s definitely on of the most difficult traffic and airspace in the country.
He’s upset that they won’t accommodate him flying his slow toy airplane 😂
The PC12 did get vectored behind a B737 and only 500 feet below, but he needs to realize how difficult controllers have it in busy airspaces... I've got the utmost respect for controllers. I don't know how the wake turbulence would impact a pc12 like that but if it was that big of a problem he needed to take evasion action and explain that later on the ground.
He literally did.
I did and the comments are roasting me for it
@@BonanzaPilot The comments are always like this. Bunch of diversity hire controllers circle jerking on their breaks.
@@BonanzaPilotlearning your lesson?
Hopefully he's in a better mood the next day
Did the phone call start something like… "Hello, this is Captain Karen. I need to speak to your manager"
Captain Karen! LOL
We actually had him call the area
@@williamcarr8484 cool.
@@williamcarr8484I hope they pointed him to some lessons on when to shut up and listen on a busy frequency. If the controller is talking like an auctioneer, that is not the time for random chatter. Be brief, be brilliant, and be gone!
The entitlement from some of these pilots who think being VFR means you can just do whatever you want regardless of other traffic is unreal. Should’ve of cancelled him earlier and had tower kick him back to approach for sequencing with other faster traffic.
Isn’t this Class B airspace? He’s not on flight following, he’s controlled VFR which is not optional. Doofus
Yep, which is why it’s even more embarrassing
Mr. Pilatusturbine couldn't be bothered to fit into the busy airspace. What a primadonna. He's going to end up in a midair collision and/or smoking hole in the ground if he keeps that up.
Anyway, from the looks of it he was hoping for a clearance through bravo to Shallow Alto or San Carlos, but his arrival was turbine-style, i.e. he was pretty much guaranteed to get routed around and under the SFO arrivals corridor. Perhaps some day he figures out that to get a shortcut in the Bay Area requires flying like a bugswatter, low and slow, which comes with its own set of problems.
I would not do that job! I would have a heart attack after one month.
8SR: how about not bitching on the frequency when ATC is working their ass off keeping everyone separated and safe?
The pilot of 8SR is the typical unprofessional, entitled “the world revolves around me” pilot that unfortunately is very common on the West Coast. It is sad to say this a regular occurrence. Maybe be part of the solution and not part of the problem.
Outstanding, professional work, NorCal, as always! 🫡
ATC clearly had no time for that nonsense. Kudos to the other pilots for backing him out. Does 8SR not know how busy that area can get? Geez...
The ATC did a heck of a job managing the volume he was managing. Whether it was sufficiently and equally optimal for all traffic really is by-the-by. There's a level of traffic and stress in the voice from ATC above which if you're not an emergency you accept that sometimes you'll be a "winner" and sometimes you'll be a "loser" in terms of what you'd prefer to happen. If you feel the balance is wrong, then barring an emergency seek to review it on the ground and on the ground only. Pilot's grievance may have been valid - I don't know either way - but expressing it in that situation when the sector was clearly being run at its limits, was absolutely not on.
So I don't know if it was me, but I honestly think the most unprofessional part of this was all the walking on each other going on with the radio... At points I couldn't tell if it was ATC jumping on too quickly, or someone just trying to talk to NORCAL, but even in these situations, I would think a little bit of small patience is needed... IFR is more controlled than FF VFR, but if spacing is an issue, then NORCAL should have added just a little bit more spacing in-between the planes to lessen the workload going on here... Also of note, the pilots "sticking up" for NORCAL, are also clogging the frequency, when they could have done it on the handle-transfer at the end like they did anyway, no need to "call out" the "bad actor" clogging the frequency... Also, as it stands, couldn't those pilots file paperwork on the pilot of the Pilatus with the FAA, on top of the controller?
Maybe someone with a little bit more experience and understanding can decipher why I'm feeling that there was a little bit of unprofessionalism all around...
What a jerk of a pilot. Busy airspace, one controller. Just cancel flight follow and fly VFR. A good VFR pilot knows when controllers are to busy to deal with them. Some controllers will even flat out reject flight following if it's too busy.