Gen 3 Hemi Camshaft Failure Mystery Explained!
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- Опубліковано 29 тра 2020
- Once we started digging into the Gen 3's mysterious cam and lifter issues we discovered a series of major design flaws within the construction of the block. This is what we found and it ain't pretty.
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Just a thought to add. Doing an MDS delete but retaining the MDS lifters could absolutely help the issue. The oil that would normally be diverted through the MDS would be held in the oil passages that connect the lifters and keep them pressurized to some extent. Anything that could get oil to leak from around the top side of the lifter would result in a pretty steady supply to the roller bearings.
What about lifters that DO have a hole in the bottom and some strategy to increase the oil volume being fed to the pushrods?
Tony, you could also take advantage of the oil galley that is in the way below the cam. I'm not sure without looking at the block if you could physically get there to machine it through the top but you could drill small something like .020 holes in that oil galley so that some oil can be shot up at the lobes of the cam. It wouldn't address the lifter wear but could help keep the lobes and rollers lubed.
@@silkysixx I agree, not that I know anything- I'm a keyboard warrior. Seems like adding an orifice to the bottom of the lifter so it sprays directly on the lifter roller/cam interface might fix it.
GREAT CATCH UTG !!! Wow! Good one!!! Actually, it's a great one!!!
You need to get rid of the vvt and mds.
Well we are probably going to buy lil Sisters 06 Charger RT to replace the 99 300m my sister who lives here drives, or keep the best two cars out of the dailies we have now. I'm pretty sure it doesn't have mds so are the earlier engines without it still prone to all the failures. It only has like 78k on it and she's never complained about it ticking or being noisy. I have never noticed anything when I've ridden in it either and they always get it serviced at the dealer. The 300 still runs fine but needs a air conditioning compressor and rear struts which I have.
So, in less than a week, UT does the equivalent cost of $10M+ in Reliability Engineering research.... That's amazing....
Well maybe ... I'm sure the engineers at Chrysler know this is the issue, but are keeping mum. If word leaks, they are in bankruptcy court, and it all goes down the drain :(
How do you know they didn’t do it on purpose.
Lost of manufacturers have been adding things that shorten the life of a car.
Tongo63 ...so in what took less than a minute to type, you unveiled an asshole!!!
You'd be amazed at what experience does for you.
For a different example, the British SA80 rifle. It's mechanically an Armalite AR-18, but Enfield cheaped out and didn't bother buying the license for the design. Worse, they had people who had never designed a firearm before reverse engineer it.
After massive amounts of trouble, someone finally gives up and hires Jim Sullivan (the other guy who designed the AR18) to troubleshoot it. Jim takes a cartridge, paints it with machinists blue, chambers it, and then pulls it out. He takes one look at it and says, "oh, yeah, you're dragging the cartridge across the barrel extension."
It took dozens of time longer to get the contract for Jim to consult written and signed than it did for him to find the first problem.
@@ScottKenny1978 Yup. That's corporate arrogance for ya.
I have no doubt the Chrysler engineers were well aware of this oiling issue. The engines probably tested out for longer then the warranty so they blew it off. I work for a global automotive o.e.m. I work in the research and development, durability group. I watch the company over look flaws like this all the time. What really drives me crazy is when they jave a good design for a part, we test it and its indestructible. The next phase of testing is cost cutting. The engineer the part down so its cheaper to manufacture. As long as the part lasts through the warranty its a go !
It's amazing to me how many things that were seemingly perfected years or decades before are suddenly a point of failure again on modern cars. It's not just Dodge either. All car companies seem to goof like this regularly.
Planned obsolescence. Back in the 60's GM's 283 and Fords 289 where phased out simply because they lasted forever. They were great engines that rarely needed repair and the dealerships couldn't make any money off of them so the disappeared.
@Lassi Kinnunen Manufactures deal with pennies as opposed to dollars. $.10 x X many million vehicles sold . Think about the Ford Pinto for one example. Ford knew and fought the issue with the fuel tank even though the fix was mere pennies. Balance cost of design against potential law suits.
@Lassi Kinnunen Agree. Always a fight between designers, engineers, and accountants.
@@edfrawley4356 Im not sure about that logic. A 289 and 302 are very similar. That engine, along with the 351w (again similar small block design) were made until the 90s.
Hi, I'm a Chrysler tech, I've had the fun of replacing a couple of these camshafts and lifters, I've also had to replaced a couple of engines due to excessive metal getting thrown into the oiling system. I've only seen 2 vehicle driven by normal customers, all the others were police vehicles. The officer who was in charge of the fleet was grumbling to me about this issue and told me the 4.6 liter Ford's don't do this, but then said but these will destroy a 4.6L on acceleration and top speed. I explained to him that a 4.6 was an overhead cam engine and that all the cam lobes and lifters were lubricated by a fed supply system and that the Hemi's cam was lubed by splash. Then I went over their maintenance records and found they were changing oil at 5,000 mile intervals and using the cheapest oil and filters the P.D. fleet dept could get on bid. They were also idling the cars for 12+ hrs a day between multiple officer shifts in South GA heat running the air conditioner. So I asked how many hours they put on the engines in a week and he responded he had no idea. My response to him given the amount of idle time the oil change intervals they were performing were probably closer to 10000 intervals. This combination of poor quality oil and filtration, along with poor maintenance intervals, high heat and extended idling was they lead killer of these camshaft lifter roller bearings. I recommended they use better oil and filters, and recommended they change oil every 3,000 and try to not idle the engines as much for as long a time period. He said the department didn't see the need to spend more money on maintenance or the need to educate their officers to be better vehicle operators. I do think Chrysler should install oiling jets of some kind to spray the lifters and lobes or they could at least change the PCM programming to periodically raise the engine rpm during extended idle periods. But that would also require educative training to the vehicle operator.
Very interesting read sir.
Would a simple oil line to feed the cam suffice
@@DylanL69 if there was a place to put it inside the block. The oil galley right below the cam would be a great place to install some spray jets.
@@stevendonnalammar4422 I'm talking about a straight pressured line to feed it I was thinking the tube the cam is in
Would it not be possible to just put a hole at the bottom of the lifter to oil the cam? Seems like the easiest solution. Like he said some people were speculating it already had.
The answer is simple just rev the piss out of your hemi every where you go
Like oldschool mechanic Italian
Hahaha ikr
That is pretty much what you have to do to the first gen Northstars. Drive 'em like you stole 'em. And resign yourself that you are going to have leaks.
That's exactly what I do and I've never had a cam or lifter failures in my hemis. I also change my oil every 5000 miles, and I never let them idle at the Sonic without giving them a rev every few minutes. These engines don't like to idle for long periods
I hit redline everyday in 2012 Cherokee.... no ticks or issues so far but Ill go till it goes!
Hey uncle Tony....My good buddy Scotty Kilmer from Houston Texas sent me here.He says you really know your stuff!!!
Same
Same here and Scotty was right, this guy definitely seems to know his stuff.
me too. i was already subscribed, but havent been to this channel in a while.
Which video did scotty mention uncle tony?
@kevin0070 in which video did scotty kilmer mention uncle tony?
Watching UT with the new Hemi engines is like having a huge porterhouse steak and unlimited Guinness.
You nailed it good sir.
only if your porterhouse steak had an oiling design flaw
I'm with you John
Ok now I know what’s for dinner
This whole time that I've been putting the hate to my engine I didn't realize I was just oiling my cam LMFAO
Same 😂😂
It's even funnier when you think about those idiots that leave their car idling for 10 minutes to warm it up. They warm up quicker and wear less if you actually start it up and drive it straight away.
3 decades ago I used to solve this problem on Holden 308's by grooving the lifter bore on the side of the lifter. I even made a tool to make it easy and consistent. Seems to me that may be beneficial on these engines also. A local Aussie company Tighe Engineering machines a narrow flat surface on the side of the lifter itself to achieve the same result. Grooving at the top side of the lifter (from oil groove to the roller end) would allow oil to positively flow to the rollers and splash across the camshaft.
kinda like a Rhoads lifter, but on the outside to direct oil, not to reduce lifter pump up... I never liked Rhoads, they tend to tick at idle, I preferred standard lifters, just set lash like at zero to a few thou loose, cant pump up- anyways, your controlled lube via a flat would work- long as mds blockoffs installed to give pressure source on lifter body- surely the depth of the flat could be tuned to give adequate flow without dropping oil pressure much- they only need a little more... I like it.
Hello I'm just a regular person on my second engine for my ram 1500. Looking to build my own. I would like to understand your fix but when I read it it looked like this ¥£€€\□》♡♡♡♤}5€■《》 😢😢😢 could you run that by me one more time
@@RodneyBarber as I read it, he had a groove cut or a flat ground, along the length of the side of the lifter...this allows oil from the oil galley that feeds the lifter to have a controlled leak, pouring excess oil down onto the camshaft... he didnt say if groove/flat was full length of lifter- if so it would also blow extra oil up into the valley- maybe ok for even more oil onto the cam from drain holes in the valley, but more likely would run to the front/rear drains first...my only worry would be reduced oil pressure from the 16 new oil leaks- a high volume pump/redrilling any feeds to handle extra volume. I think its a very sound idea, but(always a but) I think the groove from the oil feed recess to bottom only would put oil only out the bottom, and also, putting the groove or flaton roller centerline would put the 'leak' directly aimed at the cam lobe- but a groove or flat on centerline *might accelerate wear in the lifter bore, as the lateral loads would be pushing towards the groove... a zig-gag or helical groove would prevent a unworn strip in the lifter bore/provide better support to the lifter... interesting idea/food for thought. I think hes definitely got a viable solution worth kicking around/maybe tweaking. another option might be epoxy/grinder work around the block holes to guide all the drainback into areas directly over cam lobes- rake of crankshaft to horizontal line might require staggered heights so all holes would tend to drain equally with car/truck on level ground...idling on a incline though would only help one end of the motor...the lifter leak port I think might be a easiest fix- I would probably opt for a cnc'd groove with a helical or angled pattern to provide uniform wear in the lifter bore... would hate to see a unworn step in lifter bore after 50k miles or so... rhoads lifters dont have that problem internally as pushrods tend to rotate enough their ends and the internal roller plunger would tend to follow, preventing the bleeded groove from riding in one 'line' forever...
Everything today is either defective or disposable, usually both .
Well considering most domestic brands are being ran by foreigners... suprised?
@@Attachments. we adopted the metric system when we were at our strongest, it's been down hill since in a lot of ways .
@@Odin33356 Correlation doesn't involve causation.
Also, old engines (so prior to about 1985) were crap compared to modern engines. 100,000 miles and they were completely worn out. Now you can get ~ 250 - 350,000 miles with regular oil changes.
However - I feel your pain with the "everything today" etc comment. Possibly you are more correct than incorrect lol, but the older we all get the more wise we become and I often ponder whether it is your statement or cynicism.
Without wanting to create a great wall of text, there was a story from the Civil war where the Union govt called for a tender to supply boots for the cavalry. The winning tenderer made the boots but the soles fell off immediately when used to walk normally in them (not marching). The govt queried the poor quality and the supplier replied the tender called for boots to be worn on a horse and not boots that can be walked in.
@@ThePaulv12 I still have my 56 pickup with the original 265 v8 . We have jarheads testing bombs on fault lines creating earthquakes that affect Yellowstone and say the first aid kit is for employees only customers must bleed out because of liability. I'm not sure how Americans can feel proud or wise at all . I don't have any hope for humanity.
@@Odin33356 On the first point, an exception is hardly proof of contention, yeah??
On the second, I also have no hope for humanity. The avaricious barbarians that comprise all levels of society influence governments through massive campaign donations to get the government that will allow them rampage of the planet's rescources caring little for the environmental consequences until it is too late. Then they'll all be living like hogs in a hog house, with their vast wealth aquisition, and with force will change us back into a feudal society. They see what they're doing as a win-win. Effing pigs!
Ring, Ring..Tony get the phone, Chrysler's calling, they need help.
He is to honest, all these big names we trust sold out long ago .
He probably still uses a corded phone 🤣
More likely...Ring, ring...Chrysler calling...say hello to our little lawyer friends...
,, ,, THIS, " D U D E, " !!, " KNOWS, " HIS, " STUFF, " !!,
Not gonna happen. Corporate America today would NEVER acknowledge something a "little guy" discovered. They're too fucking arrogant, sitting up on their high horses. They'll just continue to stick it up our asses, because who's gonna stop them? Answer: NOBODY! There WAS a time when they did though. Some years ago, I received as a gift, Smokey Yunick's autobiography, a 3 volume set. He worked with the "big 3" - Chrysler, Ford & GM and yet, never even graduated from high school. He lied about his age, joined the military and flew over 50 missions in a B-17 bomber during WWII and then became heavily involved in NASCAR & Indy car racing. The cars he built and wrenched on did very well and the big 3 were paying attention. If you're a true gearhead, you should know who he was! That was one tough S.O.B. He's seen and done more than most people ever will. Maybe not "book smart", but an incredibly intelligent and gifted human being who contributed so much to hot rodding as we know it today. While Uncle Tony may not be in the same category as Smokey Yunick, he's obviously a thinker and very analytical about cars and engines in particular. I still have a bunch of the magazines that he wrote for back in the day. If you can't get your hands on Smokey's autobiography, you should definitely check out his wikipedia page. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokey_Yunick
Spot on Tony. My buddy’s shop takes care of a fleet of hemi pickup trucks. They’ve replace quite a few camshafts and engines. Low rpm and a lot of idle time, with heavy loads. Most of the other vehicles that didn’t fail were in passenger cars being driven at higher speeds. You nailed it.
Hey Tony, got sent here from Scotty's channel. I really like how you explained everything, you got a new subscriber. I love engines and like to hear from the guys like you who have been working on them for years and know way more than myself. I'm not a fan of Chrysler myself, have had bad experiences and not heard good things about them. Can't wait to explore your videos and see what else you have to say. Just wanted to say thanks for sharing your experience and expertise with us.
Another reason not to baby your motor by driving around like grandma out for her Sunday drive...carbon build up being the other reason that comes to mind.
I'm waiting to see the uncle Tony workaround/ solution all figured out. Get at it brother! Love your shows.
Tony, thank you! I've got a 2010 Dodge 1500. The camshaft went out at 98,000 miles. FCA did warranty it for me. (Thank God!) Never could get an explanation from ANYONE on who, what, where, when.
How did you go about getting FCA to foot the Bill?
Ya how did fca cover it? My 2013 with 135k just went out
My 2012 has 225k on it and still going. I've used Amsoil and a half quart of atf at 5000 mile oil changes from day one.
Uncle Tony your knowledge is unbelievable man so much respect
Excellent analysis. Explains why I managed to put 200k miles and 250k miles on two GEN IIIs both with lots and lots of Hwy miles at 2400 rpm yet a city driven car with 15k has the tick.
You are spot on! Thank you.
We have eliminated our problems with these engines by switching to Schaeffer Oil. 5W20 for the 5.7 and 0W40 for the 6.4. It is night and day. Noticeable as soon as you fire the engine up. I think another problem with the 6.4 is many people out there are running Mobil 1 0W40. This is usually a European spec, not a Chrysler spec. Chrysler spec allows ZDDP (zinc). Schaeffer has Zinc and Micron Moly to control the wear and it is Chrysler approved. It’s also several dollars a quart cheaper than the factory Penzoil made from natural gas.
Holy shit great comments 👏 and I don't have a Hemi but a 5.9 litre but great info
Schaefer oil is good stuff. The moly will make up for design flaws and longer oil change intervals. Lots of idle time at an electric utility on line trucks and bucket trucks. The troubleman’s truck gets a lot of mileage
What's the fix for a 2006 Chrysler 300 srt8 with a 6.1 ?
Key take away is don’t drive your hemi like a granny 😉
Right on...how often should I put the hammer down? That should be in the recommended maintenance lol
Damn, didnt know this was such a mystery. I coulda let ya know! As a lube tech at a chrysler dealer, i quickly learned about the failures of the new hemi’s. Essentially dont let them idle. Ever. Chrysler raised the cam, raised mpg, killed the engine.
I don’t think I can agree with the not letting a Hemi idle..... bought 03 Ram 1500 new. Thought nothing of it back then but i always let mine idle, summer with a/c on , winter with heat on. Changed my oil less often than recommend but at leas every 5k. Never a “Hemi Tick”. Ended up putting 235k miles on my truck before my negligence, low oil, damaged my engine. That was my personal experience and my truck was stolen 4 times, I’m sure the thieves beat on it while in their possession and each time the only thing they took was the 20” Chrome clad wheels
@@andycollakascamp9772 that model is before these
@@andycollakascamp9772 Your truck was stolen 4 times?
@@danielpassigmailcom and he got it back each time??
@@danielpassigmailcom 4 times successfully..... there was a 5th & 6th attempts but they were unsuccessful.
The seventh... yes, seventh attempt was made, while truck had a blown engine in it.
2003 was the year popular for the Hemi's re-introduction along with 20" wheels, and to the immobilizer theft deterrent system ..... I think the thieves recognized that and targeted my truck.
This "bad design flaw" is actually called *Planned Obsolescence*.
Not really obsolescence, but planned failure in order to sell over-priced parts over and over....but most people will never experience these failures because they change vehicles more often than their underwear.
@@YoungOzzy432 lol u damn right and its crazy because you don't hear people talk about 5.7 hemi because it's not a performance package engine. Even the new dodge hemi's still have 5.7 problems. That's why dodge don't do recalls and if so you can prove me wrong.
Im a member of iatn network and its mindblowing hearing how much of a issue this is...Awsome to see you dig into this.
Tony, well done. You explained the cam and lifter failures of the gen 3 hemi perfectly.There is another small problem on great Chrysler engines, the 'B' and 'RB', cylinder heads on every other V8 including the small block Mopar, water and air from the water jacket flow from the block to the head and then it flows out of the intake face of the head, except the B & RB, the water has to flow down back into the block to exit the cylinder head and any air is trapped in the head. It cannot go down (check out the 361 truck head and water pump). I rectified this by drilling and tapping a small hole in the radiator end of each head, at the top of the internal water jacket and screwed in an external 90 degree fitting (its only to get the air out). Then running quarter inch hose from each head in an upward transition to the thermostat cover . I have driven my 505 RB on days of 110 degrees with no over-heating. Hope this helps anyone with over-heating problems.
Makes me wonder if that is the real cause of the “hemi tick” I have seen commented on the internet so often.
I think you nailed it
Agreed. I enjoy UT vids, and am totally psyched he's got this GEN3 5.7. Hearing his detective work here makes alot of sense, and makes me worried about my '14 Charger 5.7....
SnowMonkVX ive got an 2014 ram 1500 makes me wonder
SnowMonkVX I hear you brother! I have a ‘15 Ram that I bought new. It never made any tick until recently when It’s been sitting more than before. I think he just described why.
exhaust manifold bolts...My 2004 Ram 5.7 hemi had that problem..it was the exhaust manifold bolts..Truck went 212,000 miles with no issues besides the exhaust manifold bolts! Simple enough repair at the exhaust shop.
This is the exact reason for the Mopar Tic at Low RPM, I own two and Have worked on Hundreds as City Squad Cars "Las Vegas Bill" you got it right and so do You "Uncle Tony".. I Never stop learning.!!
Incredible information Tony, thank you !
Nice job.
Great video. Thanks Uncle Tony for your work. I really feel like some great minds are going together and get a good final fix for this issue. I have a ‘14 Charger pursuit retired highway patrol car that I’m quite fond of and could see myself going for a fix on the rebuild. Patrol car runs good right now but who knows the future?
Great detective work. Hope someone shows this to Chrystler.
There is no issue on any engine that leaves FCA, Ford, GM etc that isn't already known. When Daimler (or whomever owned them when this was developed) put this together, they knew about the issue. They thought they could live w/ the issue.
I'd bet some Chrysler engineers have figured it out, but they don't want to say so because they don't have a solution either, short of redesigning the whole engine.
Chrysler is probably already ahead of the game and probably doesn't care. warranty is still cheaper than a complete redesign and the engine family is probably on its way graveyard of automotive history anyhow. Ford did pretty much the same thing with the Pinto. they knew it was an explosion waiting to happen but the law suites were cheaper than a redesign of the Pinto.
They know already. They also know if they acknowledge they know the lawyers will be storming the gates lawsuits in hand. By the time they figured it out tooling was in place, the engine was being built. It's a time event, probably didn't show itself in prototype testing and when it did it's way too late for a redesign. I believe it was somewhat of a rush design anyway. The 4.7 wasn't working out as well as they wanted with its share of, ironically, valve train issues so the development of the hemi was probably rushed somewhat. I was a Chassis Designer at Chrysler and GM for 30 years, this is pretty much standard procedure. A lot of issues don't show until time has passed, it's just impossible to fix something that doesn't show itself in testing. Used to be the lead time on a fresh vehicle or major component like an engine was years, when I tossed in the towel it was down to around 26 months from initial concept to production. I worked on the original Viper concept to production team and was friends with the engine designers, it was pretty cool to see an engine be conceived, built and tested to production, especially the aluminum V10.
Did you Charley dee have anything to do with/ know someone who did work on the gen 4 Vipers ? Specifically the camshaft VVD or lobes? Or multiair VVL ? Thanks as I think it’s genius ( I’d like to learn more about it as most of is in multiple Foreign languages other than English so I can’t understand and or have a hard time trying to translate what someone is saying or dumbed down way to much for me. a lot of it is missing the back story, how it’s assembled or serviced aka i think the outside lobes are a press fit 4to6th inches under size and the ones that move are a slip fit 1-3th with tapered ( 3/8 or 1/2” by 1/16 taper down) roll pins pressed down into the inside cam core hold it in place and I don’t have any tolerance figures for when it junk and can’t be put back in to service/repaired/ re-ground as example and the technical manuals are a little sparse as to how it works and or theory or how it can be modified for high performance use ) ( and other things like that including variable computer controlled shock absorbers or some of the torsion bar / air / hydropneumatic suspension ) if implemented correctly
As someone who has had the opportunity to drive more than one USA brand vehicle I’d like to share my opinions the 2006 300s ride and drive really nice ( varry similary to my 69 Charger and that a good thing ) the 2006 rubicon had very good off road manners win it was new and I was surprised just how will it could soak up bumps @ 40 mph but can’t tow anything useful ( not even a empty car holler / small snowmobile trailer ) because of the soft springs and for the pickup trucks I prefer the pre-1999 ones ( I’ve owned a gmc 1968 and a 1986 at the same time which thanks to those who had involvement with them for the most part I’ve injoy them same with the Charger and 300) a I can’t see where the front fenders are / blind spots but I have been in newer ones a wow that’s a comfy interior o most to most to nice for a “ work / farm truck “. Now for a car I will not drive again is the 2007 Buick le cross as it has Poor road manners and the last time I saw it was upside down In ditch as example in low to high side wind it was very twitchy especially at 25-70~ mph and the only thing that I could think/ do to calm it down was having a full tank of gas/heavy luggage and I was planning on selling it ( for the 60s Charger) or giving to the wife only in town as a one year~ old beater that I got in 2008 or 09
Submit your findings to the court in support of any class action lawsuit.
My 5.7 hemi camshaft just shit. My mechanic said this is a known failure. Bullshit. We all need to go after them!
@@cariekahn398 we got a 2014 ram sitting in the drive same issue
@Hybrid Libertarian You sound like a complete tool. "vIdEo oR iT nEvEr hApPeNeD" shut the hell up.
I did an MDS delete with a kit from MMX. The best thing that you can do for your hemi is delete the MDS and drive in 8 cylinder mode full time like an engine is supposed to.
I plan on doing that soon. It's a bit of insurance for the engine, and my hip pocket.
Can you keep the car in Sport Mode to deactivate MDS without a delete?
@@s.daniels9564
The MDS is still functioning even when in sport mode. Sport mode deactivates the solenoids, but the lifters are still robbing much needed oil from your rod and crank bearings. The idea is to get those cheap
Chinese lifters out of your hemi, and replace them with better high quality lifters that doesn’t divert oil away from where oil is needed most, (bearings).
Very good investigative work there Tony !! You're analysis makes 100% perfect sense !! Thank You for solving the mystery !!
Yes,thanks for solving something thats all over UA-cam.
Awesome video. As a Chrysler tech, I’ve done quite a few of these cams and lifters, but I never knew exactly why it was happening. I have noticed excessive wear marks on the lifters, but I always figured it was lifter to bore clearance. I never thought of it being lack of lubrication. The older ones had issues with breaking valve springs also.
What vehicles use this engine? Does the 6.4 Hemi have this problem? If so what do I do to prevent it
@@ggqbc Tow guy that towed my blown up hemi Charger said their 6.4l tow trucks were going through camshafts.
@@mph5896 my engine is starting to sound a little ticky... I try not to idle it anymore but really not much else you can do
@@ggqbc pull the heads and replace the lifters. You may catch it early enough to not wipe out the cam. The lifter rollers get sloppy causing noise and beating up the cam.
It might be a lack of lubrication but it's not a lack of "splash lubrication". No modern engine uses splash lubrication, if you have rebuilt these engines you should have seen the windage tray in between the crank and oil sump, which is there specifically to prevent the crank from hitting the oil. When the crank hits oil it aerates the oil, and air is a terrible lubricant, so they no longer use splash lubrication and minimize windage with windage trays.
It’s funny, when I started watching you I knew right away you had practical knowledge and practical solutions for mopar fans, love it! I now know you are the real deal!! I love the engine investigative stuff like what you present today. I’m not a wordy guy but much respect to you on this vid. Thanks!!
Tony, David phillips here, I met you a couple times 15 years or so ago and we bought and sold some parts to eachother, anyhow... The one glaring huge problem with your theory is that the 2003 - 2008 5.7 hemis almost NEVER have a lifter go bad (I have never seen or heard of ANY actually) and they have the same lifter oiling, cam height, tube in the middle of the block as the 2009-2022 hemis but they still have not been failing even 13 years after the last one was built. I have a 5 gallon bucket of lifters I have replaced in these things and a mess of bad cams in my scrap metal trailer, every single one was between 2009 and 2013. The reason you can not find anyone talking about your theory is it does not fit reality. The problem is the lifter itself, it was changed with the re-design in 09. Those lifters that have failed have smaller diameter needle bearings and are very shrouded by the sides of the lifter that hold the roller, no splash oil can get to the needle bearings in the roller tip, you can barely even see the needles in those lifter because they are so small and shourded. The factory fix was the "hellcat lifter" with larger needle bearings and less shrouded by the lifter body itself. When the lifter was changed in this way the problem went away. I have seen a couple where the lifter plunger gets stuck down in the later engines like you would hear in older engines with "lifter tick" but no more failed rollers.
Glad to come across a channel that covers classic Mopars. You got a new subscriber!
Those thumbs down are from the engineers that designed this engine.
Beat me to it.
I think those people did a fantastic job in designing this engine. The problem is with the MDS and dirty oil/cheap oil. Take care of your 3rd gen hemi by doing the routine maintenance and it can last you 200,00 to 300,000 miles.
@@cliffcampbell8827 You say that, but i think its quite naive to think its down to bad oil. To me this looks like faulty design. Similar wear on repeated lifters from different engines should maybe clue you into the fact it isnt the best designed engine... After all if it was, this video wouldnt have been made..
So inform me, where do you work at Chrysler?
@@TylerDavis1998 Stupid Chrysler recommends 10,000 mile/1 year oil changes with conventional, and the dealers enforce that. Manual in our Jeep 5.7 says you can use synthetic if desired. I much prefer it and change it myself with 5w-20 every 5000 miles or a year. It ain't driven much anyway. Stopped strange valve train lash noise at idle. The hydraulic lifters probably weren't happy with whatever the dealer put.
@@TylerDavis1998 I have had three Gen 3 Hemi's my 04 Ram Rumble Bee 5.7 with 140k miles on it was taken off the road when the body rot got too bad... Never replaced a lifter. I had a 2006 Chrysler 300C 5.7 Hemi that I traded in with 60k miles no tick.... I have a 2011 SRT8 392 Hemi with a Blower that has just turned 65k HARD miles (I mean, REALLY HARD MILES) no tick....
MDS, Lack of Maint and also I believe a bad batch of lifters is what caused all of this mess. MDS sucks and should be disabled. I've always driven my Challenger auto in Manual mode which defeats MDS then when I installed the blower I had MDS turned off in the tuning. My 300C had regular oil changes with Mobil 1 Super Synth and Mopar or K&N Synthetic Oil Filters , same for the Ram and the Challenger.
I do not work for Chrysler..... Just my direct hands on experience with 3 Gen 3 Hemis.... :)
Just fill the engine with oil until its level with the cam shaft , problem solved 🤷♂️. For all the replies thinking that this was a serious answer it was not, it was just soppose to be a funny answer,
. its obvious that it is not what to actually do because of all the reasons it would not work .
@71chevelle 406 .... If the engine could actually turn over with all that resistance.
It might actually be possible to block off the original return passage from the cam valley and raise it a bit so that a small reservoir of oil forms.
I was thinking the same thing.
DrewLSsix
That’s a cool idea
Coleman Adamson throw in a bigger battery and heavier duty starter and you’re good to go 👍🏽
Thank you for sharing your analysis of this. I was toying with the idea of swapping a 5.7 into my Dakota. After seeing this I decided to just finish the 318 Magnum that I have for it.
Great visual explanation, Uncle Tony!
I've owned two hemi's, one in a jeep and one in a ram. I've always wondered why both idle at 1500 for nearly a minute on startup, regardless of whether they are cold or at operating temp. This makes sense though if Chrysler knew the cam lobes were only splash lubricated, and wanted to get them well oiled on each startup....
WOW! I'm now definitely sticking to the 318 and 360 Magnum engines for factory EFI conversion into older Mopars.... Thanks for the information Uncle Tony.
360 magnums are great! they are the best mopar smallblocks. just change the heads for X/J heads because magnum head castings are shit.
Crower used to offer a precision ground flat on the OD of a lifter from the oil journal area down to the bottom of the lifter. This allowed extra cam oiling. I can see this helping the hemi. I'm currently knee deep in my 5.7 rebuild and am considering doing this to my new lifters and adding a Melling high pressure pump.
I have seen a lot of talk about installing the Hellcat oil pump as a solution to this problem.
It is volume problem not a pressure problem. Install the mellings high volume pump which will raise the idle pressure. The high pressure oil pump does nothing for the idle pressure it only increases the high rpm pressure which is not problem.
Great video, great point on lifter over hang and lack of dedicated roller lube! Watched a video were Chrysler peeps talked about designing the gen 3, they tracked down people responsible for the gen 2 and one major improvement the old team suggested for better hi rpm performance was to raise the cam to shorten the pushrods to reduce valvetrain weight... great for the strip.... never mind I just watched your revisited vid lol awesome work!!
Well thank you ut you just proved my theory on this problem and then some I work on a lot of these in the shop most of them police cars(idles alot) and this "theory" of yours also would explain why the catastrophic failure on these engines is usually on the cylinders that are deactivated for fuel economy my hats off to you sir but on another note I believe Chrysler already knows this but to admit this would be financial ruin to the corperation
Yep, just like the LS DOD lifter failures. Class action would destroy them because they produced millions. So they deflect, deflect deflect as we all have trucks with a stack of payments that need internal motorwork at 80,000 miles.
@Dave:"Yes,and every car manufacturer has their own lil secret "black book" of 'oops',and sometimes complete engineering frick-ups{!"
You 100% right
Hey comba. Can u take a 3ANGEL FILE AND CUT A GROVE IN THE LIFTER BORE ABOVE THE CAM. AND RAZE THE OIL PRES. TO COMP. AND USE GOOD OIL WITH ZINK. PUT THE GROVE UNDER THE OIL HOLE OR CHANEL. TAKE CARE.
That is why I sold my 2011, which I had payments on and bought a 1998 GMC Suburban which I paid cash for. I can replace the engine and transmission in my old truck for less than the cost of replacing the cam and lifters in the HEMI.
I've built 6 of these so far and we use aftermarket lifters for this problem. The casting flash on the the drain back needs to be cleaned up as cracks can start here (depending on valvetrain stress and harmonics). I also increase the oil passages slightly to allow more flow to the rear bearing. On the first motor we didn't know about the lifters available and were going to drill 8 or 16 holes in the main oil galley and plug the bottom side with a quick weld. We calculated the additional 1/32 orifice to need and additional 1gpm. Along with the increased passage sizes we calc'd a necessary 5gpm addition to the stock pump so if you do any modification to the oil system make sure you have enough flow for the pressure you plan to run. BTW the formula for flow is Q=AVK where Q= FT³/sec A=area of orifice in FT² V= velocity in FT/sec and K= orifice flow modifier.
First, I just want to say......great video! I also want to give props for a little side comment that was made concerning ZINC. Thank you for mentioning zinc UTG. More people destroy old school flat tappet cam shafts, due to lack of zinc in the oil they choose, and UTG gets what a problem that is. 6:30-6:40....not enough zinc will destroy an old flat tappet cam, and so many people overlook this. UTG nailed it! Thanks you UTG!!!
Thank-you Mr Tony.. Your analysis make sense to me.. I owned a 2014. Ram. 5.7. same problem the tick . tick .ticking. bad deal still paying for my truck.
Thank you for this video. I was thinking about trading my 2002 Ram with a 5.9 Magnum for a newer Ram with the 5.7.
After watching this, maybe I will keep the old Ram for a few more years.
I'm sticking with my 1964 283 tyvm lol. This explanation for the failure makes 100% sense to me Tony. Great work.
My grandfather used to say that the 1932 Model A was the pinnacle of human technology. Maybe he wasn't joking
😏
@@scotmesner1869 If it's not broke, don't fix it. Some continue to try and recreate the wheel. I agree with you scot. But boy was Tony on point about his diagnosis of this issue with that block.
Tony!! 187k views!! Hells yeah! Keep them coming!! Waiting for you to go live tonight!!
My Hemi has 155,000 mi on it (trouble free). When I first got it I read about the poor oil circulation at idle and made sure to never allow extended idle times on my motor. THIS VIDEO was the first time I was able to see it! Good work and Thank You for sharing!!!
How is it now lol ?
The old design Chrysler engines with regular maintenance are long lasting and durable engine.
Thanks Tony.
New engines aren’t meant to last.
Listen to tony people.
Stop supporting unsustainable the junk that the kids these days call cars and engines.
God i love my ever fuckin faithful 97 ram 1500 5.9 magnum. Love the 318 and 360 engines
that is such BS, any and i mean ANY new engine in ANY car nowadays will run 200,000 miles without any trouble. The cars of the 60s, 70s, and 80s would not even dream of that.
@@uliwehner lol. A Chevy 350 will legitimately not die. It's called maintenance. It might run on four cylinders with a hole in two of them but it will still run. New cars have catastrophic failures due to bad design and appliance like production. When something goes wrong on a new car you have to throw the whole thing away. There's pros and cons to both of them but you can't outright say a new car is more reliable considering they haven't stood the test of time. I can fire up and drive and old v8 that has been sitting for 30+ years because there is no electric fuel pump, no ecu, no electric controlled transmission, no electronic controlled throttle, It's all mechanical, it has to work. New cars are built like appliances that break and can't be fixed for a reasonable price or reasonable man hours. Pure ignorance on your part here.
@@uliwehner Apparently you have never owned a vehicle from 60's to the 80's as long as you maintained the vehicle ie: oil changes,tune ups and fluid changes they would easily last 300 thousand.
That makes perfect sense. What about a low tech fix, such as taking a triangular file and creating a vertical scratch/small groove in each lifter bore to direct pressurized oil straight towards the roller? (Obviously not too big of a groove so as to lose too much pressure to the lifter galley)
Definitely a design flaw.
Give it a try!
TONY, I DOUBT THE ENGINEERS WOULD MAKE A FATAL FLAW MISTAKE LIKE THAT IN THE DESIGN OF THE BLOCK AND PRODUCE IT FOR SO MANY YEARS WITHOUT CORRECTING IT. IT HAS TO BE SOMETHING MORE SIMPLE. THE ONLY LOGICAL ANSWER TO WHY THE CAM LOBS ARE BEING WIPED OUT IS THE LIFTER ITSELF. WHERE THE ROLLER THAT RIDES ON THE CAMSHAFT, THE CENTER SHAFT DRILLED HOLE WAS NOT CENTERED WHERE IT WAS OFFSET, WHERE WHEN YOU SPIN THE ROLLER IT WOBBLES UP AND DOWN CAUSING A FICTION EFFECT. THIS IS ALWAYS THE CASE WHERE THE SUBCONTRACTOR WHO PRODUCED THOSE LIFTERS FOR CHRYSLER HAD BAD QUALITY CONTROL. THIS IS WHERE CHRYSLER SHOULD BEGIN THERE INVESTIGATION.
Your solution won't provide enough oil to prevent the damage. The oil comes in thru the pushrod, the excess will drop thru the drains cast into the lifter valley. A drilled hole thru the lifter body would be a better solution, as well as reduction in size of those drainback castings. A small lake of oil up in the lifter valleys would greatly help the engine at idle speed, as the lifters would have plenty of oil to keep them from scuffing.
@@autochronicles8667 CHRYSLER ALREADY DID WHAT. CAN YOU BE MORE SPECIFIC?
Tony - I bought a 2014 Charger 5.7L police pursuit (retired State Patrol car) about a year ago at 125k mi (4800 hours, 1/2 of them engine idle hours) and here we are at 130k and I have the lifter tick in the top end - thanks much for explaining the "why"!
Interesting diagnosis. Will be waiting to see how you build it and address these isues for a cure
Chrysler may have already been aware of the cause but "bad batch of lifters" probably sounds better than major design flaw for them. Shame though seems like a good engine otherwise
Hey idk if you saw on Instagram but Steve Dulcich is confirmed to be an UTG fan! I'd say you guys should do a collab, but idk if my Chevy brain can take that much MOPAR lol
Mike Borraccia I saw that!!!!!
Well they probably worked together at some point. Tony been in the magazine game at the same time and longer than Steve!
Hello Uncle Tony. Subscriber and long time Mopar fan. I would like to see you do a build that addresses the performance potential as oiling fixes are/will be available. These engines are a dime a dozen in the junkyards and deserve a second chance to power a street/strip vehicle. Oiling is a "simple" fix. The advantages of elevated cam position, head flow and block rigidity should not be thrown aside because of oiling issues.
Great detective work !!! , Looking for why things happen is so under-rated !! Fantastic Job Uncle Tony !!
@@autochronicles8667 Good one , it's always a check things twice and what you say 3 times.
Thank you uncle Tony for your knowledge and you will to help us all with a hemi engine as we spend thousands of $$$ and FCA pretends to NOT knowing anything cause it serves FCAs Financial purpose !!! As it is NOT a flaw is on purpose built like that so they can RIPOFF the consumers !!! And that’s why they will never fix it under warranty but soon you are 1km over the warranty they say “ hey your camshaft needs replacement “ !! Thank you again the way you explain to us makes absolute sense now!!! Keep up educating us !!!
Uncle Tony I have a 5.7 and bunch of us Magnum and Ram owners have them. You would doing a public service by finding a workable solution for us.
The 2004-2005 tdi engines EAT camshaft lobes every 100,000 miles or less.
Some people tried aftermarket parts with mixed success.
Eventually a guru figures out how to tap into an oil passage. And add additional oil sqirters on the cam and lifter/ lifter bores.
It’s a lot of work.
But on the vw engine if you wait 100k you’ll need a timing belt and the cam and lifters- (and special torque to yield bolts)
The whole package is over $2000 to fix the problem.
If the heads coming out to be modified for proper oiling it’s closer to $4,000
For a 4cyl.
@CC Ryder I already have a Magnum 318 in my Dakota.
It's an issue caused by tight valve guide clearances. The guide doesn't expand at the same rate as the valve stem, the guide clamps in the valve stem, long enough to transfer heat, then the valve is released....but not before the rocker is stopped, the pushrod is stopped, the lifter roller bearings are crushed. After that, it ruins the lobe. How do I know? I worked at Chrysler tech support. Open up the guides about half a thou, problem goes away. Original specs were: .9 thou on the intakes, and, 1.5 thou on the exhausts. Go to: 1.5 thou, intake, and 2.0-2.1 thou, in the exhaust. Problem goes away, even on MDS engines. Why does this happen on MDS cylinders, more than the others? It takes valve action to throw out into/ on to, the guides. Stop the valves on MDS cylinders...you stop the oil from working down the guide. Unfortunately, you have to remove the heads to fix them. Good thing they are easy, as heads go.
@@mikestone234 this has nothing to do with valve guides. This is a lack of lubrication problem. What you describing would be happening the whole cam. Every instance I see is that damage is on the lobes at the back end of the cam.
Great analysis! Keep up the great work.
Great video. Thank you brother. I was about to buy the 2020 scatpack and this video changed my mind.
Instant sub once I noticed it was you from our town! Keep it up Tony!!
Uncle Tony, that was some Sherlock Holmes level analysis you laid upon us right there. Bravo sir!
"...Lubricated by luck." 🤣
COMP Cams® claims to have a product to address this issue...
Perhaps other companies as well.
TONY, I DOUBT THE ENGINEERS WOULD MAKE A FATAL FLAW MISTAKE LIKE THAT IN THE DESIGN OF THE BLOCK AND PRODUCE IT FOR SO MANY YEARS WITHOUT CORRECTING IT. IT HAS TO BE SOMETHING MORE SIMPLE. THE ONLY LOGICAL ANSWER TO WHY THE CAM LOBS ARE BEING WIPED OUT IS THE LIFTER ITSELF. WHERE THE ROLLER THAT RIDES ON THE CAMSHAFT, THE CENTER SHAFT DRILLED HOLE WAS NOT CENTERED WHERE IT WAS OFFSET, WHERE WHEN YOU SPIN THE ROLLER IT WOBBLES UP AND DOWN CAUSING A FICTION EFFECT. THIS IS ALWAYS THE CASE WHERE THE SUBCONTRACTOR WHO PRODUCED THOSE LIFTERS FOR CHRYSLER HAD BAD QUALITY CONTROL. THIS IS WHERE CHRYSLER SHOULD BEGIN THERE INVESTIGATION.
Great explanation, thanks! I also have a video where I diagnosed it on my Hemi and yes I paid close to 5k for the repair only 81k miles on it, it’s just sad that Chrysler will not even acknowledge the issue.
I replaced my rod bearings last year, I did it myself but it was a lot of work, had to drop the front cradle to get to the oil pan. I replaced all the rod bearings and polished the crankshaft journals, luckily it didn’t eat at the crank much because I shut it down once I heard the knock.
I own one of these engines and personally I think that 260 degree oil temps are part of the issue. It’s also worth noting that the vast majority of these failures are on the MDS lifters. Hellcat lifters have a bigger needle bearing and no MDS and as far as I know do not suffer the same issues.
I realize this is 2 years later but do you think disabling the MDS is a good solution?
@@whackronomiconyes
incredible man, great work. As far as "fix", oil additive molybdenum will create a plate in dry lifters, as well as ester based oil and perhaps pao based oil, all will help. Redline is killing hemi tick at a very high rate, ram forum polling shows nearly 90% of hemi owners who try it kill their tick. I'm sure other additives will work against perpendicular forces. EP or extreme pressure additives can alleviate much of this bad design. Thanks for the work, it blew me away.
TONY, I DOUBT THE ENGINEERS WOULD MAKE A FATAL FLAW MISTAKE LIKE THAT IN THE DESIGN OF THE BLOCK AND PRODUCE IT FOR SO MANY YEARS WITHOUT CORRECTING IT. IT HAS TO BE SOMETHING MORE SIMPLE. THE ONLY LOGICAL ANSWER TO WHY THE CAM LOBS ARE BEING WIPED OUT IS THE LIFTER ITSELF. WHERE THE ROLLER THAT RIDES ON THE CAMSHAFT, THE CENTER SHAFT DRILLED HOLE WAS NOT CENTERED WHERE IT WAS OFFSET, WHERE WHEN YOU SPIN THE ROLLER IT WOBBLES UP AND DOWN CAUSING A FICTION EFFECT. THIS IS ALWAYS THE CASE WHERE THE SUBCONTRACTOR WHO PRODUCED THOSE LIFTERS FOR CHRYSLER HAD BAD QUALITY CONTROL. THIS IS WHERE CHRYSLER SHOULD BEGIN THERE INVESTIGATION.
We had a 1979 Cessna 172 with the O320 “H” engine that wore the camshafts out. After the cam was replace we had to run the “snake oil” additive to prevent it from happening shin. The engine still ran great years later when we sold that plane.
@@darnellcarver3987 IF YOU DON'T USE THE PROPER LIGHT WEIGHT OIL SUGGESTED BY THE MANUFACTURER YOU WILL WIPE OUT THE CAMSHAFTS. I HAVE A 2005 MERCURY MARINER 3.0 DOHC ENGINE WITH 180,000 MILES AND STILL RUNS LIKE A ROCKET. I BOUGHT IT NEW WHEN MY DAUGHTER WAS BORN AND NEVER WARMED IT UP A DAY IN IT'S LIFE AND ABUSED IT AND RACED THE BALLS OFF OF IT AND OTHER THAN A ALTERNATOR AND BRAKES. IT HAS NEVER GIVEN ME A PROBLEM BECAUSE I USE THE RECOMMENDED MOTORCRAFT 5W-20 AND DO MY OWN OIL CHANGES. I NEVER TAKE IT TO A JIFFY LUBE, ETC. WHEN YOU ARE DEALING WITH OVERHEAD CAM ENGINES THERE ARE SPIT HOLES THAT LUBRICATE THAT CAMSHAFTS. IF YOU USE A HEAVIER WEIGHT OIL THE OIL WILL NOT SQUIRT BUT OOZE OUT NEVER REACHING THE CAMSHAFT AND THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR 1979 CESSNA. THE MERCEDES OVERHEAD CAM V-8 HAD THE SAME PROBLEM. IF YOU DIDN'T USE THE PROPER WEIGHT OIL YOU WILL WIPED OUT THE CAMSHAFTS.
@@Frank289100 wrong, I've been running 5w30 in my hemi for 40k miles now and so have many other people with 0 issues. MDS works great and their motors run smoother. 5w20 was "recommended" by Chrysler for one reason only: fuel economy, not engine longevity. 5w20 is too thin of oil for a 395HP V8 in a truck that can tow 10000lbs.
@@massivefins2597 THANK YOU! IT'S A BAD RUN OF RANDOM PARTS. THIS IS A MAJOR PROBLEM FOR ALL MANUFACTURERS ALL OVER THE WORLD WHEN ISSUES LIKE THIS POP UP. EVEN MERCEDES BENZ HAS THEM.
tony couldn't find anything about this inherent problem on the internet, so he decides to figure it out for himself !
Proactive guys like Tony are how things like this GET ON the internet. It's not magic...
TONY, I DOUBT THE ENGINEERS WOULD MAKE A FATAL FLAW MISTAKE LIKE THAT IN THE DESIGN OF THE BLOCK AND PRODUCE IT FOR SO MANY YEARS WITHOUT CORRECTING IT. IT HAS TO BE SOMETHING MORE SIMPLE. THE ONLY LOGICAL ANSWER TO WHY THE CAM LOBS ARE BEING WIPED OUT IS THE LIFTER ITSELF. WHERE THE ROLLER THAT RIDES ON THE CAMSHAFT, THE CENTER SHAFT DRILLED HOLE WAS NOT CENTERED WHERE IT WAS OFFSET, WHERE WHEN YOU SPIN THE ROLLER IT WOBBLES UP AND DOWN CAUSING A FICTION EFFECT. THIS IS ALWAYS THE CASE WHERE THE SUBCONTRACTOR WHO PRODUCED THOSE LIFTERS FOR CHRYSLER HAD BAD QUALITY CONTROL. THIS IS WHERE CHRYSLER SHOULD BEGIN THERE INVESTIGATION.
I personally know two people that this is happened to!!!
@@oneeyedsnake6914 THIS GEN III HEMI APPEARED IN 2003 AND CHRYSLER MADE MILLIONS OF THEM. IF THERE WAS AN ISSUE WITH THE BLOCK THEY WOULD HAVE NEVER CONTINUED TO BUILD THEM WITH A BAD DESIGNED BLOCK. SO ELIMINATE THAT CHECK IT OF YOUR LIST. THE PROBLEM IS THE LIFTERS. MOST LIKELY THE ROLLER CENTER HOLE IS NOT TRUE AND CENTERED. AND AS IT ROTATES, IT BOUNCES UP AND DOWN CAUSING IT TO FAIL OVER TIME.
@@Frank289100 They likely would have continued to build them, and just wouldn't have bothered since the issue usually happens after the warranty period has ended. If the issue was misaligned bores, they could have easily changed the castings and adjusted the lifter bore angle slightly when machining the block to fix this. Given that they clearly haven't fixed this problem over a decade of production, it has to be something much more inherent to the design, and a lubrication failure fits the bill.
I had a cam lifter swap 2010 5.7 hemi and I have 450,067 miles engine and 300,000 miles on the new cam lifter swap with no problems
8127y 19blue - yep, I think people are using the wrong viscosity oil.
5/20?
Seems like hemi gem III engine likes high rpm's. Lead foot people, lead foot
Should I send my tickets to Chrysler engineers?
@@MariuszChr 🤣🤣🤣🤣
So that’s why I have 207k. I never preheat, I just start it, let my torque converter fill up, and take off
Good excuse for a gear swap.
POS
Very cool to see Uncle T messing around with this stuff.
I have done several of these and came to the same conclusion...I have a 2014 5,7 hemi to repair next week. they always run great but I have my doubts about longevity
Thanks for all the research and hunting down this problem.
One of the best UA-cam vids. FC needs to pay you bro.
It would help if you shined a light down into the lifter and the engine so we could better see those parts.
Failed a cam less than 50k miles. MDS delete, Hellcat lifters, Hellcat oil pump, nearly doubled oil pressure, so far no issues on my 5.7.
@silverbird58 Just pull it and install a LS
I have 310,000 mi on my 07 hemi still runs good everyday I either just drive it hard enough or I just got lucky.... This has got me reconsidering buying a newer RAM
I do a lot of idling and my cam went at 70,000 miles. so this explains why they have these problems
It's always a lack of lubrication, install sprayers or increase side clearance on rods or hone and groove lifter bores.
Great job! I am an inspector and We see lots of these. I think your spot on here!
Inspector of what
@@GuatoLT1 Automotive Mechanical Inspector.
Great Gravy. It's like watching an old Sherlock Holmes mystery movie. Fantastic.
Well, you've done a brilliant job analyzing the problem with those engines. Boy, if anybody can come up with an aftermarket fix before the problem develops will make a fortune.. It might be that it will take a higher pressure/ volume oil pump coupled with tapping an oil gallery to snake pressurized oil feed lines to spray the valve assembly, but good luck with that.....
I’ve been waiting for answers like this for a long time!! Thank you!
Question as to a fix?
I really miss that 360 magnum.
Has anyone tried a swap that you know of?
Thanks
Thanks uncle tony for the nuts and bolts of "why"... much appreciated
WOW! This is why I turn to your channel 1st thing everyday. You are amazing.....NO B.S.
Happened to be reading an article on allpar shortly before watching this. Found it interesting from the article: Tom Hoover, “father of the 426 Hemi,” told Hot Rod that he had discussed the Elephant Engine’s design with new-Hemi engineers. Three of his major suggestions - raising the camshaft (to shorten the pushrods, reducing valve-train inertia and simplifying the rocker arms), using twin spark plugs, and adding squish area (for more light load/low speed efficiency and reduced emissions) were adopted.
I can’t watch this any longer. It’s too painful! Good thing I have a warranty.
Some engines have what I would call "oil shooters" that point upward toward the cylinder walls to provide lubrication to the walls because the rod does not provide the oiling. Perhaps something could be fabricated to do the same thing inside and face them at the camshaft. Probably would require a higher volume oil pump but might be worth a try. There has to be a way to spray oil onto the camshaft.
@Ripsaw17 Dennis My 1985 750 Suzuki GSXR had oil sprayers down near the crank spraying oil up into the bottom of the bore. All the Oil Boiler engines have them...
Well I'll be damn,....Tony figured it out . Excellent job man ! Your thoughts on why this happens is the best I've heard. I have one of these myself and I have been racking my brain for days to know why, and would you believe that Chrysler's fix is to buy the Hellcat lifters. I'm with you sir, hell no....I just hope it hangs on a little longer till I dump it
SCOTTY and UNCLE TONYs they are the man- i watched there video every-day,its so satisfying- thanks
Drilling and tapping in from the top seems like a decent idea, but you would need a small electric oil pump to supply it. Might as well run some oil to the top of these lifter too, and make that small hole to allow oil to get to the rollers.
Intersting find to be honest.
I've seen police cruisers with Idle Hour meters. The engine is limited to xx number of hours idling before it's deemed overhaul time. UT apparently has the explanation of why.
Another good reason Not to buy an old police Hemi is that they spend a Lot of time idling, which doesn't show up on the odometer ; which is why some maintenance programs install hourmeters to keep accurate track of actual engine hours vs mileage.
At $5000+ to fix the cam/ lifter issues, I'd avoid them like plague!
TONY, I DOUBT THE ENGINEERS WOULD MAKE A FATAL FLAW MISTAKE LIKE THAT IN THE DESIGN OF THE BLOCK AND PRODUCE IT FOR SO MANY YEARS WITHOUT CORRECTING IT. IT HAS TO BE SOMETHING MORE SIMPLE. THE ONLY LOGICAL ANSWER TO WHY THE CAM LOBS ARE BEING WIPED OUT IS THE LIFTER ITSELF. WHERE THE ROLLER THAT RIDES ON THE CAMSHAFT, THE CENTER SHAFT DRILLED HOLE WAS NOT CENTERED WHERE IT WAS OFFSET, WHERE WHEN YOU SPIN THE ROLLER IT WOBBLES UP AND DOWN CAUSING A FICTION EFFECT. THIS IS ALWAYS THE CASE WHERE THE SUBCONTRACTOR WHO PRODUCED THOSE LIFTERS FOR CHRYSLER HAD BAD QUALITY CONTROL. THIS IS WHERE CHRYSLER SHOULD BEGIN THERE INVESTIGATION.
Frank289100 Chrysler never corrected the design flaw with the 2.7 engine. They did offer a modification to address the problem but I don’t think it ever went to production models. Correcting substandard vendor parts is fairly easy. Basic redesign of an engine is very expensive. That non concentric roller is probably from abnormal wear not bad machining.
@@raoulcruz4404 YOU GAVE ME A MEANINGLESS MINI A THESIS HERE. SO WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE IS THE CAUSE??
@@Frank289100 Exactly as Tony explained.
My meaningless thesis is to refute your premise that engineers would correct a design flaw. Not necessarily, because corporate has to approve and fund the redesign. Engineers can jump up and down about a redesign all they want. Doesn't have to happen. If corporate says, No, then it's not going to happen. The onus is on the company to fund ($$$$) the fix.
If it's a sloppy vendor problem, the vendor either fixes the problem or they don't get paid for their parts. How quickly do you think that issue will get resolved?
By the way, do you really think that rollers that badly machined would get past QA time and time again? Year after year? Your looking at an abnormally worn part.
Nice informative video, just like the rest of yours. Now to get Chrysler to acknowledge this and reward you for the discovery of why it occurs.
The people at chrysler know exactly what the problem is. If there was a simple solution, it would be quietly implimented. If they admit a design flaw, it would cost them dump truck loads of dollars.
Well done. Both investigation and presentation of findings.
The best video I’ve seen covering this issue bar none.
This saddens me tremendously as I was hoping to see Uncle Tony build a fun Gen 3 project in some classic Mopar... The Gen 3 is often maligned but I absolutely love them and am on my second vehicle with a Gen 3. If you stick with one built 2009 or newer and don't sit around idling ten hours a day they are almost totally bulletproof. I have had one Gen 3 with the MDS disabled from factory and experienced no issues with the motor and my current daily Ram is totally stock and has MDS and everything like any other basic 5.7 on the road and its a bear of a motor for what it is. I hope one day they get enough aftermarket support and fan base to really make them a solid option for hot rodding and racing applications for the "at-home garage" guy.
You really know your business incredible knowledge it’s very refreshing to hear a professional like you talking
Very good video. Thank you for your time researching it. If the oil is pressurized in modern engines and the galleys should be pumping oil all around the lifters and camshaft , and I see what you are showing, and I understand the splashing oil or jets help oiling obviously,..but this seems like either a galley issue where the engineers starved the cam to oil the lower end or they plug up with bad oil...or possibly a combo or maybe stress dynamics are frying these camshafts... just a thought. Anyhow thank you for a great video. :))
The hemi, like basically all modern engines, does not use splash lubrication. The crank hitting the oil aerates the oil, this is called windage and is something to avoid because air is a terrible lubricant. Modern engines like the hemi have a windage tray to sperate the crank and oil sump to prevent windage/aeration of the oil. So lack of splash lubrication has nothing to do with the problem.
Sweet piece of deductive reasoning, Maestro! Those folks at Chrysler Engineering should be going to put you on their payroll. Thank you.