As an eBike Software Engineer at Bosch I'm really proud hearing this. The only thing I can say is that we are working really really hard. Therefore this is what exactly drives me every morning. Seriously thank you for your trust.
I looked into possibly doing an independent ebike repair business here in our region but unfortunately got scared off due to the ecosystem out there. I still think there is a lot of potential here for an independent repair technician and if Bosch had a training program for such a thing that would be a huge step forward. My understanding right now is such support is going to those selling ebikes and not someone like myself who would be interested in offering service only. Am I wrong? The community here is reliant on only a couple stores who also sell the product etc.
Thanks for all the work you do, it's completely changed how I move about the city and its great having the independence from the car. Love the new Nyon display!
Just watched another comparison on youtube in thinking about building my own ebike and they tested a ton of other brands and even Chinese brands that claimed more power, and Bosch beat them all. Trust Bosch for my cars coilpacks think I will go with your motors too.
Your hard work has definitely paid off in the form of an eBike drive system that others struggle to compete with. Your software is a crucial part of what makes your system so close to perfection for an eBike drivetrain. Fantastisch! Vielen Dank!
As somebody who had a BionX electric assist (who went out of business in 2018), and has spent the past 4 months trying to fix it, giving up, and painfully piecing together a replacement electric assist, I applaud this move. It *sucks* to have to tear out an obsolete electric assist.
Great video Chris. Long term support is essential for products like E-Bikes. Your point about poor quality hurting the overall industry is valid and people need to be aware of that. Strong relationships in the industry will help us all. Keep on promoting your philosophy, the industry and consumers will be better for it. Cheers.
Good things to bear in mind...and a good strategy to adopt. E-bikes represent a rather sizeable investment for most of us that we will likely hold onto for a long time. As relatively new products, reliability data isn't really available yet. I don't expect any product to be perfect, but I do look for a manufacturer to be in it for the long haul with us.
I think Bosch is a very good brand, my experiences with the Bosch motor are good as well. First e-bicycle I bought in 2013 I still have. Use it now as bicycle to go to shops and in the city. The Bosch classic motor still works fine, even my batterys do. My new e-bicycle rides like a dream, with the Bosch Perfomance Line motor. I am still as happy as when I drove it the first time. I do not need a stronger motor. I almost never drive in Turbo, when I must climb steep I use Sport. 99% of my driving I do in Tour. My washing machine and dryer are a Bosch, so is my fridge. If you have a good experience, why chose another brand. I also believe Shimano motors will be good and also for a long time. Shimano is making parts for bicycles for a long time. But I can imaging that you only sell Bosch. It is good when you go to a shop knowing what that shop is about.
Always appreciate your perspective Leo! It’s cool to hear experiences from the Classic motor as we didn’t get that one here. I imported a few as kind a grey market product, but Bosch began working with the US in 2014 with Gen 2.
I'd be more willing to ride a bike powered by Bosch if they were willing to embrace right to repair. They are like Apple, a walled garden ecosystem. Did a cell in your battery go bad? That's too bad well sell you another. Oh you'd rather just replace that one cell for a fraction of the price? To bad the BMS won't work anymore and if you use a non Bosch battery or BMS your motor won't function. Throwing out a battery pack with 29 good cells and 1 bad one just because Bosch designed their BMS to suicide on power loss is not friendly to the customer or the environment. That's why I don't ride a Bosch and won't in the future unless they change.
@@fendermon most people wouldn't bother doing it themselves. There are shops that refurbish batteries though. I could do it myself but I have the skills to build my own battery packs. I also also repair servo motors for a living so I could theoretically rebuild one of these motors up to and including a full rewind. Probably not worth the time to do it but it is an option. What they have really done is insure there's no possibility of after market parts not sold through them. Want to put a larger battery for extended range? Your SOL. Only good thing is I can pick up dead Bosch packs from my local ebike shop for free. They don't have to pay for disposal and normally I can salvage 90% of the cells for my own use.
One of the Best Channels For R&M Info my Fav one as i Like your Down to Earth Explanations of the Tech etc Keep it up👍 Bosch Exclusive Sounds Like a Good idea in Theory But Here in Uk I have a Specialized Levo Sl And When it Needed Warranty Work It Was All Sorted Straight away,Specialized Do Not Want any E Bike Buyer to Not Be able to Use there Bike,But Speaking to Bike Shops Here Bosch Is Not Supporting People the Same and a Shop Might have Your Bike for Weeks waiting for Parts !! The Main Concern I have is What Happens to our Expensive E Bikes if We Still own it in 5 or 8 Years Time as if Parts are No Longer Made it Will be a Big Loss Compared to a None E Bike ? I Think They Need to Standardise Frame Motor Mounts and Also Electrics So Motors Could Be Swopped over From any Make of Bike Theres two Many Differing Frame Designs and its Making it a complete minefield for the Future.
I've worked on many ebikes, and bosch has the best motors. They support their product like no other, and are always coming out with software update. Good move.
As a biking family, we made a decision last year to only buy Bosch-powered bikes. We got fed up of the reliability and BS of the other motor brands. We have three bikes, 2 Cubes and a R+M, all Bosch powered.
This is pretty much the same reasoning I had when I was shopping for an ebike and only looked at Bosch-driven bikes. It’s reassuring to know that an expert was thinking the same thing.
Chris, this video is awesome! I really respect this decision and I am surprised it hasn’t been done sooner. Riese & Muller and Bosch virtually guarantee an awesome e-bike experience, and buying through Propel is the way! Love the personal tidbits you share in your videos as well. Keep up the awesome work!
I think it is a good move for you. My only issue with Bosch is that I can't seem to find their motors retail. It's not just Bosch, I have found that most of the higher end components out there seem only to be available as a part of an assembled bike. One of my personal goals is to build a Conversion eBike, and then build a from scratch eBike so I know how to totally maintain my own stuff end to end without having to go through a third party, and so that my bike is built to fit me, because I have a lot of trouble with comfort on my current ebike. I will likely end up building my own seat at some point this year, though my biggest issue is that standard bike seats can't be moved far enough back, and would lack support if they could without building a custom seatpost (I am already using a suspension seatpost, so changing that out for one that has a bend in it or something to that effect isn't ideal).
I'm guessing that these motors aren't ever going to be available retail, because they require too much integration into the frame. I.e. the frame has to be designed around the motor. The number of people qualified to build a frame from scratch, or to modify an existing frame, so that it will accommodate these mid-mount motors, are far and few between. Maybe you're one of them, and maybe it's to Bosch's detriment that they can't accommodate you. But from their perspective, if you're not selling some large number of bikes using their motors, it would probably cost them more to support you properly than they will get back in the sale of the motor. :(
@@harvey66616 It isn't really that hard to create a steel or aluminium plate to use as a mounting point around the pedal shaft. Even easier if you do a 3D scan of the motor and bike, which today, if you could get precise enough, you could use an iphone or ipad as the scanning device, then 3D print a mold, you could build one that was actually elegant if you want to build a small furnace for smelting metal. Not saying that it would not be work, but when you are into that kind of thing, it is just a part of the process. Really the solution difficulty comes with how easily the motor is intentionally designed to mount. If they intentionally make it difficult, then it is more work, if they design it to mount easily, then more people should be able to do it.
@@BookmansBlues Heh. Your comment says it all. _"...when you are into that kind of thing"_ . That's my point. Consumer-facing e-bike parts, retrofits, etc. all accommodate the average bike _owner_ . You're talking about a bike _builder_ , or at least _some_ kind of builder, i.e. someone familiar with a variety of manufacturing and assembly processes. That group of people is _much_ smaller than the group of retail consumers that would be needed to justify backing a retail sales program for the Bosch components.
The Propel maintenance team look like they know what they are doing. Could you make a spinoff called "Propel fix" channel for basic maintenance videos for each bike type? Start with how to remove the back wheel of the Load 60 :)
I like this idea. We have been making some internal videos for our customers, but I was thinking of a way to publish them without disrupting the main channel too much. Or maybe we offer a paid subscription to that content. What do you think? It would make it easier to produce more of it
@@Propelbikes Or you could offer it to those that buy products from you but have a patreon or other subscription based platform for anyone else who wants maintenance or technical expertise. The value of expert instruction warrants compensation in my opinion. I have found myself that I'm willing to pay for a subscription for expert information or instruction. I'm not sure everyone feels this way, but the good stuff isn't free.
Your comments about sustainable technologies with eBikes are very important to take seriously. Recirculation of used eBikes and matherials is crucial. We run three Bosch motored Cube bikes in family. Bosch is in Finland a synonyme to German reliability well over 100 years. Cube eBike maintenance services needs development still in our country. I like very much to follow your business philosofy! Go on!
I think Bosch makes the most durable motors and batteries out there, and they have good warranty support. I would make the same decision if I ran a bike shop. Bosch has an automotive industry mentality for reliability, safety, and durability.
But they also have a reputation of anti-tamper, anti-diy-repair, planned obscolesence and closed-source systems. All Bosch products I had that died on me, did that on faulty programming at some point. Never hardware issues, always "501 errors". Whether its a bike, dishwasher, screw driver, thermostat. They could really win the hearts of people if they opened up their software side. Allow self-programming of the microcontrollers, document the electronics. Take a lesson from LEGO. Hardware is flawless. Software is junk.
As someone who has a Bionx motor system, I completely understand why you did what you did. I now have a Bafang powered Tern Vektron but sometimes I wish that I would have spent the extra to get a Bosch powered one.
nothing wrong with Bafang, it's one of the most efficient motors available in the E-bike space. And was an important brand for establishing the industry.
I think that we need to set more open standards for cross compatibility, even more than we have already. We already have standardized mounts, but we need standardized interfaces, standardized connectors, controller and display communication protocols, mounting systems for the batteries and controller boxes, and more. Just as I can buy standardized parts for my brakes on my car, like buying a five lug rotor with X diameter, or buying a replacement blower motor for my interior cooling with a standard mounting plate, or getting a new engine that uses the same mount points as the original as a performance upgrade, having standards on every corner of the eBike world would make it so that you can service your bike even if the original parts were made by a brand that disappeared for some unknown reason a decade ago, because the parts are standard and several brands kept making compatible stuff.
When we purchased an ebike for my wife, Bosch was a critical factor in making the selection we did. Yes, they may cost a bit more, but they have greater longevity and a better support system. That makes them a better deal in the long run. I like that you and your business are playing the long game and helping consumers make better decisions.
This Video ROCKS Chris. Good decision to stick to Bosch exclusively. It's hard to pass onto a customer that the company who made their E-Bike is no longer in business. My Dad drilled home to me the importance of a good parts availability network. Don't look back Chris...lean forward all the way.
As I understand it Bosch is also better in compatibility across the range and some retro compatibility, so with a given motor you have a choice of batteries, for example. What annoys me about Shimano is that every motor seems to have specific unique batteries and mounting points, so when they introduce a new, more powerful battery and you want to upgrade to extend your touring range, you can’t
Spot on. Bought a food mixer from Bosch, one small plastic piece broke 2 years later, went to their website and got the part for 2€ free shipping, arrived in a couple of days. That impressed me, thought I had to throw the mixer in the bin. Therefor both my ebikes have bosch drive trains, I know the support will be there. I trust a bike shop that keeps to strong brands and doesn’t look like a storage unit with thousands of different bikes. Cheers
There is a great, I think, counter argument to this guys way of thinking! For the owner of a product that is high proprietary such as these bikes with the “ Bosch System” built in are basically forced to continue using those products and getting support from dealers setup to service these units typically at very high costs. The counter is to buy a bike that uses more universal components that can easily replaced with other similar brands at much lower costs.
I asked a fellow Bosch mid drive mountain bike rider, I asked him how many miles he had on his bicycle he said over 7000 miles, I asked him if he had any problems with the system or anything like that he said no
Bosch have really come into this with 100% commitment. Invested a lot of money into developing a fantastic product that does things nobody even thought of, and uses their huge automotive experience to create working electrical systems for a dirty wet environment. I’m so happy with my CX Gen 4 and the Kiox display, which really is incredible for its size. I feel that they could do a bit more in terms of repair/serviceability but at the same time they’re the Macs of the bike world - If you’re very technical and have a lot of knowledge then you find them limiting and unworkable, but the average joe just wants a bike that works, and that’s what the Bosch bikes do.
Yeah, the long term support issue is easy to overlook. I picked up on ebike from an online retailer, and there were initial build hiccups and part issues. After getting past those, I have a fun and fast ebike that I can use for short trips or shopping, but it doesn't inspire the same level of confidence that I have with my other bikes in terms of build quality and reliability. So it's fun while it lasts, but as soon as it starts falling apart I have real doubts about the reparability and maintainability of the ebike. I'm pretty sure no one local is going to want to do any substantial work on it with the electrical components. I think if I were to transition to bike-only / car-free transportation, I'd probably be looking to a local bike shop for that level of support with more premium brands that aren't going away anytime soon. But that's not feasible for my situation, especially considering the (lack of) bicycling infrastructure around me.
I appreciate you sharing this well rounded perspective that I think is shared by many. My only concern is that if many take this approach we will end up filling the landfills with these bikes. I don’t want be an extremist or rain on anyone’s party, but rather have conversations around these topics. I hope you see that as such.
I love my Tern GSDv2, the cargo line motor is a monster up hills. Best decision made go with Bosch, just like some of my other stuff in my house. Never let me down. There was a story about some other bike catching on fire in a house. I trust that Bosch has tested their batteries and are up to standard. As usual in life, you get what you pay for.
I completely agree. But if you really believe the 80/20 rule, should also consider a secondary brand that is as committed to customers and quality similar to Bosch. I would suggest Yahama, maybe Shimano. Definitely not Bafang. Specialized, of course, has gone 100% with Brose.
Thanks John! Great feedback. I’ve considered this and it might be something we explore in the future, but the disparity between Bosch and the others is pretty great. I’m hoping that changes in the future though.
Chris: like all new tech that I decide to invest in, I did a TON of research before deciding to buy my ebike from you. Could I have spent less money? Of course. Would I have felt confident that I was buying the best product for my money? Not so much. I bought my ebike from Propel because of my belief in YOU and what you stand for. You embrace the same ethics and principles that I believe are tantamount to a great company. Your devotion to industry research and your long term business decisions, which in the end, benefit your customers, is why I chose and will continue to choose Propel. Hat’s off to you, good Sir!
I had a 1969, 10 ton ex military radio truck (M.A.N) converted to a camper. I drove it to India and back from the Netherlands in 2001/2. On the way back, the 30 year old, specialist, heavy duty Bosch generator stopped working as we were driving through Samsum in Turkey. I took it to the local M.A.N dealer who told me it was so old and unusual that he could do nothing for me. However, they removed it and took it to their local Bosch supplier to see if a replacement could be supplied. It wasn't the brushes that needed replacing (which they did anyway) but some sort of heavy duty regulator. Not a cheap item.The original unit was repaired in under an hour. They could have told me I would have to buy an alternative standard generator (US$950) which I would have accepted. Instead it was returned to me, free of charge, because they wanted photos of the truck (quite a rarity) to show the longevity of their product. That is real customer service and I've been a fan of Bosch ever since! My bike has a Bosch system. Works great. Never a problem. German engineering; do we need to say more?
When I buy my next, it will be through you guys. You have a positive spin on the whole marketing, customer support and a positive customer experience. Love your standards.
I am in the market for an ebike. Honestly I love front-load cargo bikes. Listening to this video and your heart for quality and selling the best product anywhere convinces me to purchase from you guys. I work in the bike industry. I have built bikes for the largest selling ebike shop in the Oklahoma City cycling industry. I recognize that most shops are really not concerned about long lasting quality. (We don’t service motors and batteries on many of the models on the floor)… I think that speaks for itself. While I continue to experience sticker shock for the cargo bikes that I am interested it is reassuring to know that quality shops are still out there!!! Thank you….
Its the full package that i like, my R&M supercharger which is my first choice e-bike for long distance touring , The new Nyon display and a brilliant Bosch portal (connect) to link it to , more so the Navigation and route planning that also links to Komoot !
As always, your videos are well thought out and presented! You are a thinking man's bike dealer and businessman. The long term quality and service/parts support for any brand will determine the winner in a given industry/market. Your locations/markets and brand exclusivity have put you in the position of serving a more limited, wealthy market that is hopefully enough for your success. All said, brother, that's what makes you a leader! Wise and successful businessmen have said you can't be all things to all people. Thanks for all you do and share with all of us!
Very much appreciated Gary, it's my hope that eventually the market will provide more quality options at lower price-points, but it's not easy to do. I realized a while ago I need to be patient instead of just cutting corners as you always pay in the long run.
To quote Andrew Carnegie: “put all your eggs in one basket then watch that basket” Pursuit of excellence is its own reward, those that can’t keep up will either adapt (up their game) or be left behind. With your approach I can’t see you being one of them. Here’s another concept like the ‘Pareto principle’ I have found really useful: Kaizen- constant incremental improvement. Good luck to you Chris.
Congrats sir, that's definitely a very strong statement you are making and though decision as well. I hope Bosch will live up to your expectations. As a Bosch employee and a Bosch e-bike user, this makes me really proud.
Totally agree. Being from Europe, I sometimes cannot believe what junk ebikes are sold here in the US. People here want cheap and buy crap and wonder why the bike shops cannot repair that s#!t.
@@alphonsotate2982 sure, my buddy has a home built ebike with a 5kW motor. He carries a lot of batteries and I just call his electric dirt bike an electric wheelchair 😂😂😂 No problem in the US as there are no laws but in Europe they do have laws.
BOSCH pissed me off with their Gen 4 because they were not going to make it retrofitted. I know its a great pedal assist motor, I do like their system but I hope they continue with making a pedal assist system that can be changed on the bikes instead of getting a new bike to encompass their new pedal assist motors.
yup bought a bosch cx ebike 2017 been riding it to work most days still great range. i have a speedbox to get rid of the 27kmh speed limit. i ride it in turbo mode the whole time. i have gone through a few chains, rear gear sets, tyres, brake pads. still great range. top speed 47-54kmh. 4yrs of reliable cycling.
Great topic .I’ve been following e bikes from the early days but your decision to take this root is essential for a industry that’s overwhelmed by new products. Thank you 🇨🇦🤙
Chris, I think this is a great decision and I admire your long term thinking based on your values. Bought two R&M Chargers from you in 2018 and have been totally satisfied with bikes and Bosch motors. Just upgraded to Nyon controller/display (thanks for tracking one down for me). With no R&M dealer in the area (North Carolina) I was very happy to find that my local Trek dealer was capable of dropping my motor to install my new Nyon and cabling. The wide Bosch dealer network across multiple eBike brands is a huge benefit for anyone with a Bosch powered eBike.
You need a FUV with a vertical bike rack on the back, as a tow vehicle. To help be more carbon neutral. You can also buy green power credits, even if your power provider does not offer them.
Sweet! Now, please open a store in Calgary, Canada. haha It's exactly the kind of mindset I'd like to support! I still love my Super Commuter+ 7, but it would be nice to have easy access to a shop like yours. Great video once again!
10:52 "But do you really need that? I mean if you can get up the biggest hills anywhere in the world whether it's San Francisco or whatever, how much power do you actually need?" *Me who currently lives in San Francisco as a native resident: Enough to be able to climb the steepest and most hilliest street in the city!* I really hate it when I use an ebike and I find out that it cannot climb the hill to the point where I get so tired I have to walk the bike. For me it does matter that it has a sufficient amount of horsepower so I don't tire out.
@@Propelbikes Currently & unfortunately I don't have a bicycle of my own, so in other words I'm in the market for a new bicycle. Right now as you know it's difficult to get a new bike due to the insane unprecedented demand since last year 2020. So when the demand spike finally subsides then I will move forward with getting a new bike. I would like to get an e-bike, but unfortunately my current financial situation prevents me from getting an e-bike right now. Maybe in the future I'll get one when my financial situation improves. I'm hoping for those e-bike tax credits because it would be very helpful. I don't bike much, but when I do I mostly use the bikeshare system. It's OK, but I've been pretty disappointed in how hard it is for me to pedal uphill at the lowest gear. I've even used their electric version set at the lowest gear and I find that can't even get me up a *moderately graded hill* without me getting extremely tired.
I'm sure it was a difficult decision to make, but I think it was the right one. With all of the online shops selling ebikes with huge motors and large batteries, I was just looking for something that will do its job. Get me to work reliably and relatively quickly. I also made sure to purchase from a dealer so that in the event that something DID go wrong, I have the support and I don't have to deal with emails and phone calls. The Bulls Urban EVO with the Performance Line Speed Bosch motor (3rd Gen) is everything that I needed for my 28 mile round trip commute. All the while helping me get in shape, livening up my commute and helping the environment.
Tough times but valiant decision. Your customers will thank you for it long term. I had a Dutch made bike with an Impulse motor. 8,000 k's later ithe motor crumbled inside. The dealer said that was a good run for that motor despite buying it from there. It cost $800 au for the replacement motor and another $600 for installation and service just so I could sell it. After that and much research later I was going Bosch only. Now we have two Bosch powered ebikes in the house with no regrets.
I have an e-bike from a reputable brand but not Bosch-equipped. I've only had it for 2-3 months and so far it's spent more time waiting for repairs at the shop than on the road, due to various electrical faults. Nothing too dangerous thank goodness, but still. Overall it's a great bike and it fits my needs (when it works), which other e-bike models sadly don't, but I wish that brand had gone with Bosch instead of whatever it is they're using.
bosch is a great company with really great motors. specialized in house mid-drive motors aren't too far behind imo. will you ever sell bikes with the specialized motors?
I bought a bike here in the Bay Area from a silicon valley startup (won't name any names). It has all the bells and whistles. But when I encountered some problems, there was nobody to turn to, and i was on my own. So I fully understand your decision here. I won't be making the same mistake again.
Solid reasoning Chris and a good business decision. My only concern, as a potential e-bike owner, is pricing. I never buy cheap tools. That being said, an $8K German wunderbike is unreasonable. Although I know plenty that will pay that much for a Leica rangefinder camera. So I guess you have to decide if you are selling a luxury/vanity product, or a truly utilitarian tool. So far, Benno's Boost E has come the closest for me. If only they would offer a Gates belt drive...
I'm a Bosch system enthousiast and I just upgraded to a performance line with the Gazelle Ultimate c380 2022. I'm sure I'll have a lot of worry less kilometres the coming 7-8 years
Sound thinking. Shimano and Yamaha would likely be other long-term ebike companies once they grow their range of motors. Maybe it'll become Bosch for Americas-EU and Shimano-Yamaha for Asia? Certainly the ebike industry needs better standards and longer support for legacy equipment. Bosch and Shim-Yam have the experience and platforms.
I think what you're talking about is very reasonable. For instance, I paid for a eBike that was recommended on a Y/T channel on May the 5th 2021 it's been a week and I haven't heard from the seller in that time. Beginning to get that oh oh feeling. They said the had a warehouse in the U.S. and promise fast delivery. Good thing it was processed through PayPal so maybe I have some protection. I wish I had learned of your company before making the purchase because you represent the type of business I would like to do business with. I think I'll go ahead and buy one of yours because I don't want to wait too long before summers gone.
My Bosch motor/battery in my Electra Townie Go was one of the reasons I purchased it, thought of spare parts & support that maybe needed down the track. Great idea for your shop.
This makes sense. We think so much alike. I want products like this! Cars, bikes, lawn mowers, etc that are simple, reliable, supported, safe, and worth the investment. I support this all the way
Great vid Chris... I'm glad we are part of your store and journey. Decisions like this are a big deal and having worked with Bosch for years, I understand why you did!
It’s known as the “Pray Dough” principle. As a manager of medium large groups of employees, 80% of your personnel problems originate from 20% of the employees. The same group of people always show up in your office over some transgression of employee conduct (well spelled out in employee orientation) and in a written employee resource handbook. When the phone rang I always wondered who it would be this time, I got pretty accurate over 35 years.
For transparency, Yamaha, Shimano, and Brose are other top-tier motor manufacturers, at least that's how I've always understood them to be. I think your decision is perfectly reasonable, Chris. Bosch is definitely a good partner for ensuring that you're getting the best quality for your customers. Selling a mix of high quality and lower quality is extremely confusing for customers, and most can't immediately reconcile that disparity and the risks that come with the lower quality motors.
@@Propelbikes as a Consumer I naturally also look for products with long term support by the manufacturer. Bosh stands out compared to all the competition in that regard.
Well, I purchased a Stromer from you several years ago and I’d hope you could somehow stay in the mix with other brands as my bike is obviously not a Bosch product.
Trebor, I should have mentioned this in the video. We will definitely continue to support you and your bike. I don’t want to take anything away from Stromer or speak poorly of them, we just want to focus. But we have several mechanics experienced to work on our legacy products and I’m happy to get my hands dirty as well if needed. Please feel free to reach out if you have any questions or concerns as it’s our top priority to support our customers, no matter what the system is.
@@Propelbikes Thanks Chris, sounds good. Personally, I love my Stromer ST2. It’s a dream to ride and a whole lotta fun to. I appreciate your business model. Keep up the great work! 👍
Your making me wish I went for the Bosch Townie Go but we went with the Townie hyperdrive GO because it was an easier price point purchase and Trek has been around for a long time and aren’t likely to be going anywhere. Interesting and seemingly sound thinking.🤔
Chris..since beginning to inquire about e-bikes earlier this year, I've found all your videos very informative. It's been over 40 years since I rode regularly (think Schwinn 10 speed w/ drop handle bars!). I've been working with a local dealer and narrowed my choices down to offerings by Tern. Based in part on this video, I've also focussed on Bosch equipped bikes. Were it not for a local Tern dealer, I'd be more than comfortable buying an e-bike from you over the phone. Again, thanks for all you do to educate us and promote e-bike use. Should I find my self near either of your stores, I'd like the opportunity to meet you.
I completely agree with you - but given budget constraints I went with a different decision, to get my existing mountainbike electrified (for about a third of the cost of an entry level ebike I test rode) with bolt-on components. The system is made by Bafang and no, I've got no guarantee that they'll still be around in 5 years but because it's a bolt-on solution I can live with that since I'm not married to a specific ebike manufacturer. :) I do look forward to getting a 'proper' ebike in 5 years but am hoping that by then we'll have seen a lot of innovation and economies of scale kick in and make high quality ebikes generally affordable.
I like it when you teach a little philosophy. Much respect for your posts. I might have written this previously but say it again, your bike info is the best on UA-cam.
Hi , just seen your video on e-bikes in New York , now in this new age after the pandemic show how much we need to change, it’s the way forward to a clearer and greener horizon .🚲🛴🚲🛴🚲🛴🚲🛴🚲🛴🚲🛴🛴🚲🛴🚲🛴
Hey Chris, I feel like made a mistake by misjudging your technical/business decision. I started exploring with e-bikes a few years back,. I was an ex auto/bicycle mech and was attending engineering school so i thought i knew better at the time. I ended up owning 4 e-bikes (2 DIY and 2 entry level production units) and now working in the engineering industry I have truly started to understand what you are trying to delivery to the customers. In the short 5-6 years time i have personally seen the rise and fall of many companies, experienced with online vendors that have min technical support skills and a brand new batteries with failed BMS unit. No customer would want to deal with this for a product of any price and especially not for a piece of equipment that they are trying to use as a daily transportation. So I just want to say you are doing a great job and that you are making a solid calculated decision by concentrating on your technical efforts on a well established company. Looking forward to your videos and hope to visit one of your shops one day.
Very sound decision which will translate to a win win for both us as consumers and you as a business who’s trying to make a positive impact to this growing segment. Bosch looks positioned to make strong steps moving forward based on significant leaps just these past 5 years! Really enjoy your videos Chris!
Great video Chris!!! I definitely wanted to have a Bosch system on one of my bikes for sure. Im worried that only one ebike motor company means no reason to make the product better. 🤔 You are stuck like chuck. Im planning to come to the store and swap out the Bosch Smartphone Hub. The Cobi App that you need to use the Smartphone Hub makes me sad because I had such high hopes for it. 🥺 Bosch hasnt updated the UX at all. Also Bosch’s website docs need an update. 🤔 Chris why not Specialized e-bikes? I have had a great experience with my Specialized Turbo Creo SL Comp Carbon EVO e-bike so far. Its been a year and a half already. I know youre primarily commuter bikes but the weight of the bikes makes a difference when Im commuting some days. My Gazelle bike definitely feels amazing though. 😍
Thanks for going with a non-Chinese motor. I don't want a Bafang and have been "hunting" for a hunting ebike with fat tires. So far, it's not been going well. I may have to build my own, but I think there's a nice market there! Can you make any suggestions for an off-road ebike that can tow or carry a deer out of the woods? The bike dealers sell the commuter ebikes and the sporting goods stores sell the Bafang-powered fat tire bikes. Anyone out there know of another option for us hunters? Thanks.
Do you boys come across a problem with the bosch performance 4 cx motor?I have a 2022 nevo gt and have a problem with a clonking noise that is felt from motor through to cranks only for a second or rwo then back to normal,this is an intermittent action, occurring couple of times on say 12- 15mile run. Appreciate your comments, please. Regards mike
We actually used to do that. I think if we made our own it would be purpose built, but at the moment we are pretty please with what our partners are producing.
Can i ask how does this work? I mean; Bosch doesnt make the bikes... So have you settled on one brand of bike, or buying several brands but only models with bosch motors?
I agree with you, at least for me, I'm not just trying to have fun. I'm trying to use a car less, and so I need something that is just as reliable as my car, and that if needed I can get support for it, because I'm not throwing it away, for what I'm spending on it, I need it to last a long time.
Hi Chris, good video. I absolutely agree with you. I think long term prospective pay the efforts. But I have a question for you. How do you take in consideration new bike companies? They don't have 100 years experience like bosch but maybe some of them have the same long term way of thinking and what they need is just little time to implement it. What do you evaluate in a brand new company that let you test their new product?
Totally understandable. Bosch is just the best quality, sensors, integration. They are just reliable. Drive a cx gen 2 since 4 years. My next ebike will have a also a Bosch mid drive.
The waste of buying cheap, untested and low quality bikes that go to landfill is a huge problem. I’m always thinking about that. How to get out of the cheap bike mentality that most countries remain stuck in. And when the product is closely associated with sustainability like e-bikes are, it’s even more important.
Hey Chris, a shout out from the UK...great video and very informative. For a few reasons I'm looking to go down the ebike route and your channel is a mine of information. Long term confidence really is the key the most major life decisions, happy to see you are making the right ones for your company. I wish you every success!
I'm in the UK too and decided to go with Bosch for my ebike after considering the various options. For me support if it goes wrong, a company that is likely to still be in the game years from now, good quality and a good user experience were high on my list. I noticed that many of the top ebike companies use Bosch exclusively and from what I could see the store I bought my ebike from had only bikes with Bosch motors, mostly Moustache and R&M. So far I'm pleased with the performance of mine, it was a bit more that I was originally willing to pay but I'm glad I spent the extra. The new Nyon display on it is totally ahead of the competition right now and is really nice to use.
As an eBike Software Engineer at Bosch I'm really proud hearing this. The only thing I can say is that we are working really really hard. Therefore this is what exactly drives me every morning. Seriously thank you for your trust.
I looked into possibly doing an independent ebike repair business here in our region but unfortunately got scared off due to the ecosystem out there. I still think there is a lot of potential here for an independent repair technician and if Bosch had a training program for such a thing that would be a huge step forward. My understanding right now is such support is going to those selling ebikes and not someone like myself who would be interested in offering service only. Am I wrong? The community here is reliant on only a couple stores who also sell the product etc.
Thanks for all the work you do, it's completely changed how I move about the city and its great having the independence from the car. Love the new Nyon display!
Just watched another comparison on youtube in thinking about building my own ebike and they tested a ton of other brands and even Chinese brands that claimed more power, and Bosch beat them all. Trust Bosch for my cars coilpacks think I will go with your motors too.
@@speciesofspaces contact eBike via their website to see possibilities www.bosch-ebike.com/en/service/contact
Your hard work has definitely paid off in the form of an eBike drive system that others struggle to compete with. Your software is a crucial part of what makes your system so close to perfection for an eBike drivetrain. Fantastisch! Vielen Dank!
As somebody who had a BionX electric assist (who went out of business in 2018), and has spent the past 4 months trying to fix it, giving up, and painfully piecing together a replacement electric assist, I applaud this move.
It *sucks* to have to tear out an obsolete electric assist.
Great video Chris. Long term support is essential for products like E-Bikes. Your point about poor quality hurting the overall industry is valid and people need to be aware of that.
Strong relationships in the industry will help us all. Keep on promoting your philosophy, the industry and consumers will be better for it. Cheers.
I hope so! I don’t want to come across as an evangelist, but I am passionate about this topic for sure
Good things to bear in mind...and a good strategy to adopt. E-bikes represent a rather sizeable investment for most of us that we will likely hold onto for a long time. As relatively new products, reliability data isn't really available yet. I don't expect any product to be perfect, but I do look for a manufacturer to be in it for the long haul with us.
Second!! I do 80/20. 80% junk food 20%salad. Not sure what I'm doing wrong and why I can't lose weight
You won’t lose a pound until you cut out the salad...
😆 😂 😜
Too much salad.
Keep that ratio, ride more bike!
Sounds like a standard diet diet.
I think Bosch is a very good brand, my experiences with the Bosch motor are good as well. First e-bicycle I bought in 2013 I still have. Use it now as bicycle to go to shops and in the city. The Bosch classic motor still works fine, even my batterys do. My new e-bicycle rides like a dream, with the Bosch Perfomance Line motor. I am still as happy as when I drove it the first time. I do not need a stronger motor. I almost never drive in Turbo, when I must climb steep I use Sport. 99% of my driving I do in Tour. My washing machine and dryer are a Bosch, so is my fridge. If you have a good experience, why chose another brand. I also believe Shimano motors will be good and also for a long time. Shimano is making parts for bicycles for a long time. But I can imaging that you only sell Bosch. It is good when you go to a shop knowing what that shop is about.
Always appreciate your perspective Leo! It’s cool to hear experiences from the Classic motor as we didn’t get that one here. I imported a few as kind a grey market product, but Bosch began working with the US in 2014 with Gen 2.
I'd be more willing to ride a bike powered by Bosch if they were willing to embrace right to repair. They are like Apple, a walled garden ecosystem.
Did a cell in your battery go bad? That's too bad well sell you another. Oh you'd rather just replace that one cell for a fraction of the price? To bad the BMS won't work anymore and if you use a non Bosch battery or BMS your motor won't function. Throwing out a battery pack with 29 good cells and 1 bad one just because Bosch designed their BMS to suicide on power loss is not friendly to the customer or the environment.
That's why I don't ride a Bosch and won't in the future unless they change.
Point taken. But, If someone changes one cell and burns down their house well.....that isn't good for business either.
@@fendermon most people wouldn't bother doing it themselves. There are shops that refurbish batteries though. I could do it myself but I have the skills to build my own battery packs. I also also repair servo motors for a living so I could theoretically rebuild one of these motors up to and including a full rewind. Probably not worth the time to do it but it is an option.
What they have really done is insure there's no possibility of after market parts not sold through them. Want to put a larger battery for extended range? Your SOL. Only good thing is I can pick up dead Bosch packs from my local ebike shop for free. They don't have to pay for disposal and normally I can salvage 90% of the cells for my own use.
Definitely the best e-bike channel out there, by far👌🏻
I’m honored and humbled to hear this! Thank you very much for your supportive words.
One of the Best Channels For R&M Info my Fav one as i Like your Down to Earth Explanations of the Tech etc Keep it up👍
Bosch Exclusive Sounds Like a Good idea in Theory But Here in Uk I have a Specialized Levo Sl And When it Needed Warranty Work It Was All Sorted Straight away,Specialized Do Not Want any E Bike Buyer to Not Be able to Use there Bike,But Speaking to Bike Shops Here Bosch Is Not Supporting People the Same and a Shop Might have Your Bike for Weeks waiting for Parts !!
The Main Concern I have is What Happens to our Expensive E Bikes if We Still own it in 5 or 8 Years Time as if Parts are No Longer Made it Will be a Big Loss Compared to a None E Bike ?
I Think They Need to Standardise Frame Motor Mounts and Also Electrics So Motors Could Be Swopped over From any Make of Bike
Theres two Many Differing Frame Designs and its Making it a complete
minefield for the Future.
I've worked on many ebikes, and bosch has the best motors. They support their product like no other, and are always coming out with software update. Good move.
Much appreciated! I feel similar
As a biking family, we made a decision last year to only buy Bosch-powered bikes. We got fed up of the reliability and BS of the other motor brands. We have three bikes, 2 Cubes and a R+M, all Bosch powered.
This is pretty much the same reasoning I had when I was shopping for an ebike and only looked at Bosch-driven bikes.
It’s reassuring to know that an expert was thinking the same thing.
Chris, this video is awesome! I really respect this decision and I am surprised it hasn’t been done sooner. Riese & Muller and Bosch virtually guarantee an awesome e-bike experience, and buying through Propel is the way! Love the personal tidbits you share in your videos as well. Keep up the awesome work!
Hi, Chris. Respect to your values and integrity to live them by ! Another great video is done!
I think it is a good move for you.
My only issue with Bosch is that I can't seem to find their motors retail. It's not just Bosch, I have found that most of the higher end components out there seem only to be available as a part of an assembled bike.
One of my personal goals is to build a Conversion eBike, and then build a from scratch eBike so I know how to totally maintain my own stuff end to end without having to go through a third party, and so that my bike is built to fit me, because I have a lot of trouble with comfort on my current ebike. I will likely end up building my own seat at some point this year, though my biggest issue is that standard bike seats can't be moved far enough back, and would lack support if they could without building a custom seatpost (I am already using a suspension seatpost, so changing that out for one that has a bend in it or something to that effect isn't ideal).
I'm guessing that these motors aren't ever going to be available retail, because they require too much integration into the frame. I.e. the frame has to be designed around the motor. The number of people qualified to build a frame from scratch, or to modify an existing frame, so that it will accommodate these mid-mount motors, are far and few between.
Maybe you're one of them, and maybe it's to Bosch's detriment that they can't accommodate you. But from their perspective, if you're not selling some large number of bikes using their motors, it would probably cost them more to support you properly than they will get back in the sale of the motor. :(
@@harvey66616 It isn't really that hard to create a steel or aluminium plate to use as a mounting point around the pedal shaft.
Even easier if you do a 3D scan of the motor and bike, which today, if you could get precise enough, you could use an iphone or ipad as the scanning device, then 3D print a mold, you could build one that was actually elegant if you want to build a small furnace for smelting metal.
Not saying that it would not be work, but when you are into that kind of thing, it is just a part of the process.
Really the solution difficulty comes with how easily the motor is intentionally designed to mount. If they intentionally make it difficult, then it is more work, if they design it to mount easily, then more people should be able to do it.
@@BookmansBlues Heh. Your comment says it all. _"...when you are into that kind of thing"_ . That's my point. Consumer-facing e-bike parts, retrofits, etc. all accommodate the average bike _owner_ . You're talking about a bike _builder_ , or at least _some_ kind of builder, i.e. someone familiar with a variety of manufacturing and assembly processes.
That group of people is _much_ smaller than the group of retail consumers that would be needed to justify backing a retail sales program for the Bosch components.
The Propel maintenance team look like they know what they are doing. Could you make a spinoff called "Propel fix" channel for basic maintenance videos for each bike type? Start with how to remove the back wheel of the Load 60 :)
I like this idea. We have been making some internal videos for our customers, but I was thinking of a way to publish them without disrupting the main channel too much. Or maybe we offer a paid subscription to that content. What do you think? It would make it easier to produce more of it
@@Propelbikes Patreon only content?
What do you think?
@@Propelbikes Or you could offer it to those that buy products from you but have a patreon or other subscription based platform for anyone else who wants maintenance or technical expertise. The value of expert instruction warrants compensation in my opinion. I have found myself that I'm willing to pay for a subscription for expert information or instruction. I'm not sure everyone feels this way, but the good stuff isn't free.
Your comments about sustainable technologies with eBikes are very important to take seriously. Recirculation of used eBikes and matherials is crucial. We run three Bosch motored Cube bikes in family. Bosch is in Finland a synonyme to German reliability well over 100 years. Cube eBike maintenance services needs development still in our country. I like very much to follow your business philosofy! Go on!
Thanks Hannu! Much appreciated! Happy riding!
I think Bosch makes the most durable motors and batteries out there, and they have good warranty support. I would make the same decision if I ran a bike shop. Bosch has an automotive industry mentality for reliability, safety, and durability.
But they also have a reputation of anti-tamper, anti-diy-repair, planned obscolesence and closed-source systems. All Bosch products I had that died on me, did that on faulty programming at some point. Never hardware issues, always "501 errors". Whether its a bike, dishwasher, screw driver, thermostat. They could really win the hearts of people if they opened up their software side. Allow self-programming of the microcontrollers, document the electronics. Take a lesson from LEGO. Hardware is flawless. Software is junk.
As someone who has a Bionx motor system, I completely understand why you did what you did. I now have a Bafang powered Tern Vektron but sometimes I wish that I would have spent the extra to get a Bosch powered one.
nothing wrong with Bafang, it's one of the most efficient motors available in the E-bike space. And was an important brand for establishing the industry.
I think that we need to set more open standards for cross compatibility, even more than we have already. We already have standardized mounts, but we need standardized interfaces, standardized connectors, controller and display communication protocols, mounting systems for the batteries and controller boxes, and more. Just as I can buy standardized parts for my brakes on my car, like buying a five lug rotor with X diameter, or buying a replacement blower motor for my interior cooling with a standard mounting plate, or getting a new engine that uses the same mount points as the original as a performance upgrade, having standards on every corner of the eBike world would make it so that you can service your bike even if the original parts were made by a brand that disappeared for some unknown reason a decade ago, because the parts are standard and several brands kept making compatible stuff.
When we purchased an ebike for my wife, Bosch was a critical factor in making the selection we did. Yes, they may cost a bit more, but they have greater longevity and a better support system. That makes them a better deal in the long run. I like that you and your business are playing the long game and helping consumers make better decisions.
This Video ROCKS Chris. Good decision to stick to Bosch exclusively. It's hard to pass onto a customer that the company who made their E-Bike is no longer in business. My Dad drilled home to me the importance of a good parts availability network. Don't look back Chris...lean forward all the way.
As I understand it Bosch is also better in compatibility across the range and some retro compatibility, so with a given motor you have a choice of batteries, for example. What annoys me about Shimano is that every motor seems to have specific unique batteries and mounting points, so when they introduce a new, more powerful battery and you want to upgrade to extend your touring range, you can’t
Spot on. Bought a food mixer from Bosch, one small plastic piece broke 2 years later, went to their website and got the part for 2€ free shipping, arrived in a couple of days. That impressed me, thought I had to throw the mixer in the bin. Therefor both my ebikes have bosch drive trains, I know the support will be there. I trust a bike shop that keeps to strong brands and doesn’t look like a storage unit with thousands of different bikes. Cheers
Super cool to hear that!
You can’t go wrong with a German brand that has been around for so long!
There is a great, I think, counter argument to this guys way of thinking!
For the owner of a product that is high proprietary such as these bikes with the “ Bosch System” built in are basically forced to continue using those products and getting support from dealers setup to service these units typically at very high costs. The counter is to buy a bike that uses more universal components that can easily replaced with other similar brands at much lower costs.
I asked a fellow Bosch mid drive mountain bike rider, I asked him how many miles he had on his bicycle he said over 7000 miles, I asked him if he had any problems with the system or anything like that he said no
Thanks for sharing!
Bosch have really come into this with 100% commitment. Invested a lot of money into developing a fantastic product that does things nobody even thought of, and uses their huge automotive experience to create working electrical systems for a dirty wet environment. I’m so happy with my CX Gen 4 and the Kiox display, which really is incredible for its size. I feel that they could do a bit more in terms of repair/serviceability but at the same time they’re the Macs of the bike world - If you’re very technical and have a lot of knowledge then you find them limiting and unworkable, but the average joe just wants a bike that works, and that’s what the Bosch bikes do.
Yeah, the long term support issue is easy to overlook. I picked up on ebike from an online retailer, and there were initial build hiccups and part issues. After getting past those, I have a fun and fast ebike that I can use for short trips or shopping, but it doesn't inspire the same level of confidence that I have with my other bikes in terms of build quality and reliability. So it's fun while it lasts, but as soon as it starts falling apart I have real doubts about the reparability and maintainability of the ebike. I'm pretty sure no one local is going to want to do any substantial work on it with the electrical components.
I think if I were to transition to bike-only / car-free transportation, I'd probably be looking to a local bike shop for that level of support with more premium brands that aren't going away anytime soon. But that's not feasible for my situation, especially considering the (lack of) bicycling infrastructure around me.
I appreciate you sharing this well rounded perspective that I think is shared by many. My only concern is that if many take this approach we will end up filling the landfills with these bikes. I don’t want be an extremist or rain on anyone’s party, but rather have conversations around these topics. I hope you see that as such.
I just purchased a benno boost with a Bosch CX motor so I totally agree quality over quantity with great tech support !!!
Thanks James!
I gained a whole lot of respect for this company.
Love the honesty. Out here in Germany and picking up so many tips....such a shame I can’t buy from your shop
Maybe one day! I’d love to have a shop in Germany one day!
I love my Tern GSDv2, the cargo line motor is a monster up hills. Best decision made go with Bosch, just like some of my other stuff in my house. Never let me down. There was a story about some other bike catching on fire in a house. I trust that Bosch has tested their batteries and are up to standard. As usual in life, you get what you pay for.
I completely agree. But if you really believe the 80/20 rule, should also consider a secondary brand that is as committed to customers and quality similar to Bosch. I would suggest Yahama, maybe Shimano. Definitely not Bafang. Specialized, of course, has gone 100% with Brose.
Thanks John! Great feedback. I’ve considered this and it might be something we explore in the future, but the disparity between Bosch and the others is pretty great. I’m hoping that changes in the future though.
Kudos Chris. A solid decision and it will pay off for your business
Much appreciated! I feel like it’s the right move for the longterm.
Chris: like all new tech that I decide to invest in, I did a TON of research before deciding to buy my ebike from you. Could I have spent less money? Of course. Would I have felt confident that I was buying the best product for my money? Not so much. I bought my ebike from Propel because of my belief in YOU and what you stand for. You embrace the same ethics and principles that I believe are tantamount to a great company. Your devotion to industry research and your long term business decisions, which in the end, benefit your customers, is why I chose and will continue to choose Propel. Hat’s off to you, good Sir!
I had a 1969, 10 ton ex military radio truck (M.A.N) converted to a camper. I drove it to India and back from the Netherlands in 2001/2. On the way back, the 30 year old, specialist, heavy duty Bosch generator stopped working as we were driving through Samsum in Turkey. I took it to the local M.A.N dealer who told me it was so old and unusual that he could do nothing for me. However, they removed it and took it to their local Bosch supplier to see if a replacement could be supplied. It wasn't the brushes that needed replacing (which they did anyway) but some sort of heavy duty regulator. Not a cheap item.The original unit was repaired in under an hour. They could have told me I would have to buy an alternative standard generator (US$950) which I would have accepted. Instead it was returned to me, free of charge, because they wanted photos of the truck (quite a rarity) to show the longevity of their product. That is real customer service and I've been a fan of Bosch ever since!
My bike has a Bosch system. Works great. Never a problem. German engineering; do we need to say more?
I appreciate where you are coming from - if I was younger I would look to work for someone like you.
I am definitely not younger either, but I would like to work for propel anyway.
We are hiring! I was thinking about making a video on this topic. We are looking to hire a lot in the near future.
But, thank you. This means a lot to me!
I too would love to work for Propel at some capacity. Im primarily a frontend software engineer…but would love to be a part of team propel.
Super cool to know!
When I buy my next, it will be through you guys. You have a positive spin on the whole marketing, customer support and a positive customer experience. Love your standards.
I am in the market for an ebike. Honestly I love front-load cargo bikes. Listening to this video and your heart for quality and selling the best product anywhere convinces me to purchase from you guys. I work in the bike industry. I have built bikes for the largest selling ebike shop in the Oklahoma City cycling industry. I recognize that most shops are really not concerned about long lasting quality. (We don’t service motors and batteries on many of the models on the floor)… I think that speaks for itself. While I continue to experience sticker shock for the cargo bikes that I am interested it is reassuring to know that quality shops are still out there!!! Thank you….
Its the full package that i like, my R&M supercharger which is my first choice e-bike for long distance touring , The new Nyon display and a brilliant Bosch portal (connect) to link it to , more so the Navigation and route planning that also links to Komoot !
Love it!
As always, your videos are well thought out and presented! You are a thinking man's bike dealer and businessman. The long term quality and service/parts support for any brand will determine the winner in a given industry/market. Your locations/markets and brand exclusivity have put you in the position of serving a more limited, wealthy market that is hopefully enough for your success. All said, brother, that's what makes you a leader! Wise and successful businessmen have said you can't be all things to all people. Thanks for all you do and share with all of us!
Very much appreciated Gary, it's my hope that eventually the market will provide more quality options at lower price-points, but it's not easy to do. I realized a while ago I need to be patient instead of just cutting corners as you always pay in the long run.
When you specialize with one manufacturer you also can give a better service.
Long term service support is the most important thing in e-bike world. I still love my Bosch gen. 2 engine.
I totally agree, but it’s seemingly one of the most overlooked details.
@@TheAviation101 nooo. I had no guarantee but had option to buy new bearings which is 1\3 of Bosch gen 2.
I own two Bosch mid-drive bikes, can’t be happier
Nice!
To quote Andrew Carnegie: “put all your eggs in one basket then watch that basket”
Pursuit of excellence is its own reward, those that can’t keep up will either adapt (up their game) or be left behind. With your approach I can’t see you being one of them.
Here’s another concept like the ‘Pareto principle’ I have found really useful: Kaizen- constant incremental improvement.
Good luck to you Chris.
Congrats sir, that's definitely a very strong statement you are making and though decision as well. I hope Bosch will live up to your expectations. As a Bosch employee and a Bosch e-bike user, this makes me really proud.
Totally agree. Being from Europe, I sometimes cannot believe what junk ebikes are sold here in the US. People here want cheap and buy crap and wonder why the bike shops cannot repair that s#!t.
@@alphonsotate2982 sure, my buddy has a home built ebike with a 5kW motor. He carries a lot of batteries and I just call his electric dirt bike an electric wheelchair 😂😂😂
No problem in the US as there are no laws but in Europe they do have laws.
BOSCH pissed me off with their Gen 4 because they were not going to make it retrofitted. I know its a great pedal assist motor, I do like their system but I hope they continue with making a pedal assist system that can be changed on the bikes instead of getting a new bike to encompass their new pedal assist motors.
yup bought a bosch cx ebike 2017 been riding it to work most days still great range. i have a speedbox to get rid of the 27kmh speed limit. i ride it in turbo mode the whole time. i have gone through a few chains, rear gear sets, tyres, brake pads. still great range. top speed 47-54kmh. 4yrs of reliable cycling.
Great topic .I’ve been following e bikes from the early days but your decision to take this root is essential for a industry that’s overwhelmed by new products.
Thank you 🇨🇦🤙
Chris,
I think this is a great decision and I admire your long term thinking based on your values. Bought two R&M Chargers from you in 2018 and have been totally satisfied with bikes and Bosch motors. Just upgraded to Nyon controller/display (thanks for tracking one down for me). With no R&M dealer in the area (North Carolina) I was very happy to find that my local Trek dealer was capable of dropping my motor to install my new Nyon and cabling. The wide Bosch dealer network across multiple eBike brands is a huge benefit for anyone with a Bosch powered eBike.
You need a FUV with a vertical bike rack on the back, as a tow vehicle. To help be more carbon neutral. You can also buy green power credits, even if your power provider does not offer them.
Great feedback!
Love Bosch, still have an Ave XH5 1st Generation Bosch, working like new, turning 10 very soon. That is quality.
Nice 👍
Sweet! Now, please open a store in Calgary, Canada. haha It's exactly the kind of mindset I'd like to support! I still love my Super Commuter+ 7, but it would be nice to have easy access to a shop like yours. Great video once again!
Lol! That sure would be nice! First I need to visit which I hope can happen soon.
@@Propelbikes If you ever come, feel free to reach out and maybe I can show you around.
10:52 "But do you really need that? I mean if you can get up the biggest hills anywhere in the world whether it's San Francisco or whatever, how much power do you actually need?"
*Me who currently lives in San Francisco as a native resident: Enough to be able to climb the steepest and most hilliest street in the city!* I really hate it when I use an ebike and I find out that it cannot climb the hill to the point where I get so tired I have to walk the bike. For me it does matter that it has a sufficient amount of horsepower so I don't tire out.
I totally agree. What bike do you ride can I ask? Sometimes you also need to adjust the gearing.
@@Propelbikes Currently & unfortunately I don't have a bicycle of my own, so in other words I'm in the market for a new bicycle. Right now as you know it's difficult to get a new bike due to the insane unprecedented demand since last year 2020.
So when the demand spike finally subsides then I will move forward with getting a new bike. I would like to get an e-bike, but unfortunately my current financial situation prevents me from getting an e-bike right now. Maybe in the future I'll get one when my financial situation improves. I'm hoping for those e-bike tax credits because it would be very helpful.
I don't bike much, but when I do I mostly use the bikeshare system. It's OK, but I've been pretty disappointed in how hard it is for me to pedal uphill at the lowest gear. I've even used their electric version set at the lowest gear and I find that can't even get me up a *moderately graded hill* without me getting extremely tired.
Cool, now I'm certain where I'll be buying my ebike's from and where to have them serviced 👍
Oh wow! Thanks!
Can i ship mine to you Chris for a service?? Nah the boat would sink or the plane crash knowing my luck....
Same here - I might not buy today but integrity like shown here transcends business and short term gain
I'm sure it was a difficult decision to make, but I think it was the right one. With all of the online shops selling ebikes with huge motors and large batteries, I was just looking for something that will do its job. Get me to work reliably and relatively quickly. I also made sure to purchase from a dealer so that in the event that something DID go wrong, I have the support and I don't have to deal with emails and phone calls. The Bulls Urban EVO with the Performance Line Speed Bosch motor (3rd Gen) is everything that I needed for my 28 mile round trip commute. All the while helping me get in shape, livening up my commute and helping the environment.
“In order to say yes to great things, you have to say no to good things.” You get it! This video tells me you will be around a long, long time!
Tough times but valiant decision. Your customers will thank you for it long term.
I had a Dutch made bike with an Impulse motor. 8,000 k's later ithe motor crumbled inside. The dealer said that was a good run for that motor despite buying it from there. It cost $800 au for the replacement motor and another $600 for installation and service just so I could sell it.
After that and much research later I was going Bosch only. Now we have two Bosch powered ebikes in the house with no regrets.
I like how they are hot swappable and the maintainence side is hot swappable.
I don’t really support monopolies, but I understand your perspective, I just hope Bosch gets some tough competition, for everyone’s sake.
I have an e-bike from a reputable brand but not Bosch-equipped. I've only had it for 2-3 months and so far it's spent more time waiting for repairs at the shop than on the road, due to various electrical faults. Nothing too dangerous thank goodness, but still. Overall it's a great bike and it fits my needs (when it works), which other e-bike models sadly don't, but I wish that brand had gone with Bosch instead of whatever it is they're using.
bosch is a great company with really great motors. specialized in house mid-drive motors aren't too far behind imo. will you ever sell bikes with the specialized motors?
I found the audio volume of this video to be particular low. I think you can perhaps add gain or normalize next time.
Good feedback. I’ll have Tara keep an eye in that
I bought a bike here in the Bay Area from a silicon valley startup (won't name any names). It has all the bells and whistles. But when I encountered some problems, there was nobody to turn to, and i was on my own. So I fully understand your decision here. I won't be making the same mistake again.
Solid reasoning Chris and a good business decision. My only concern, as a potential e-bike owner, is pricing. I never buy cheap tools. That being said, an $8K German wunderbike is unreasonable. Although I know plenty that will pay that much for a Leica rangefinder camera. So I guess you have to decide if you are selling a luxury/vanity product, or a truly utilitarian tool. So far, Benno's Boost E has come the closest for me. If only they would offer a Gates belt drive...
I'm a Bosch system enthousiast and I just upgraded to a performance line with the Gazelle Ultimate c380 2022.
I'm sure I'll have a lot of worry less kilometres the coming 7-8 years
Sound thinking. Shimano and Yamaha would likely be other long-term ebike companies once they grow their range of motors. Maybe it'll become Bosch for Americas-EU and Shimano-Yamaha for Asia? Certainly the ebike industry needs better standards and longer support for legacy equipment. Bosch and Shim-Yam have the experience and platforms.
I agree! I think Shimano and Yamaha are doing a good job as well, but they aren’t fully on par with Bosch from my perspective.
I think what you're talking about is very reasonable. For instance, I paid for a eBike that was recommended on a Y/T channel on May the 5th 2021 it's been a week and I haven't heard from the seller in that time. Beginning to get that oh oh feeling. They said the had a warehouse in the U.S. and promise fast delivery. Good thing it was processed through PayPal so maybe I have some protection. I wish I had learned of your company before making the purchase because you represent the type of business I would like to do business with. I think I'll go ahead and buy one of yours because I don't want to wait too long before summers gone.
My Bosch motor/battery in my Electra Townie Go was one of the reasons I purchased it, thought of spare parts & support that maybe needed down the track. Great idea for your shop.
This makes sense. We think so much alike. I want products like this! Cars, bikes, lawn mowers, etc that are simple, reliable, supported, safe, and worth the investment. I support this all the way
_"Some people will say that is overkill"_
Those people have never met a German.
😂 lol! Love it! As an American of German decent with many German friends I fully agree. Wish my Grandfather was around to see what I was up to
@@Propelbikes I am sure your Grandfather would have been proud of you!
Great vid Chris... I'm glad we are part of your store and journey. Decisions like this are a big deal and having worked with Bosch for years, I understand why you did!
It’s known as the “Pray Dough” principle. As a manager of medium large groups of employees, 80% of your personnel problems originate from 20% of the employees. The same group of people always show up in your office over some transgression of employee conduct (well spelled out in employee orientation) and in a written employee resource handbook. When the phone rang I always wondered who it would be this time, I got pretty accurate over 35 years.
Wow. Guess I’m jaded only watching mostly Propel videos. I wasn’t aware there were any other motor brands.
Lol. That’s not intentional, but I guess pretty much all the bikes we cover are Bosch powered.
For transparency, Yamaha, Shimano, and Brose are other top-tier motor manufacturers, at least that's how I've always understood them to be. I think your decision is perfectly reasonable, Chris. Bosch is definitely a good partner for ensuring that you're getting the best quality for your customers. Selling a mix of high quality and lower quality is extremely confusing for customers, and most can't immediately reconcile that disparity and the risks that come with the lower quality motors.
I am only 2 minutes in and i already think this is going to be yet another great video from you!
Yep, great video indeed. As so often, a very informational and thoughtful video. Very enjoyable.
Wow! Thank you so much! I really appreciate it Rob! It was a bit nerve wracking publishing this, but I am feeling better the more I get feedback.
@@Propelbikes as a Consumer I naturally also look for products with long term support by the manufacturer. Bosh stands out compared to all the competition in that regard.
Well, I purchased a Stromer from you several years ago and I’d hope you could somehow stay in the mix with other brands as my bike is obviously not a Bosch product.
Trebor, I should have mentioned this in the video. We will definitely continue to support you and your bike. I don’t want to take anything away from Stromer or speak poorly of them, we just want to focus. But we have several mechanics experienced to work on our legacy products and I’m happy to get my hands dirty as well if needed. Please feel free to reach out if you have any questions or concerns as it’s our top priority to support our customers, no matter what the system is.
@@Propelbikes Thanks Chris, sounds good. Personally, I love my Stromer ST2. It’s a dream to ride and a whole lotta fun to. I appreciate your business model. Keep up the great work! 👍
Thanks for understanding! We have many happy customers on that bike! It is quite awesome!
Your making me wish I went for the Bosch Townie Go but we went with the Townie hyperdrive GO because it was an easier price point purchase and Trek has been around for a long time and aren’t likely to be going anywhere. Interesting and seemingly sound thinking.🤔
My hand-me-down Bosch washing machine has made me a believer.
Chris..since beginning to inquire about e-bikes earlier this year, I've found all your videos very informative. It's been over 40 years since I rode regularly (think Schwinn 10 speed w/ drop handle bars!). I've been working with a local dealer and narrowed my choices down to offerings by Tern. Based in part on this video, I've also focussed on Bosch equipped bikes. Were it not for a local Tern dealer, I'd be more than comfortable buying an e-bike from you over the phone. Again, thanks for all you do to educate us and promote e-bike use. Should I find my self near either of your stores, I'd like the opportunity to meet you.
I very much appreciate it! I think Tern rocks! Happy riding!
I completely agree with you - but given budget constraints I went with a different decision, to get my existing mountainbike electrified (for about a third of the cost of an entry level ebike I test rode) with bolt-on components. The system is made by Bafang and no, I've got no guarantee that they'll still be around in 5 years but because it's a bolt-on solution I can live with that since I'm not married to a specific ebike manufacturer. :) I do look forward to getting a 'proper' ebike in 5 years but am hoping that by then we'll have seen a lot of innovation and economies of scale kick in and make high quality ebikes generally affordable.
I like it when you teach a little philosophy. Much respect for your posts. I might have written this previously but say it again, your bike info is the best on UA-cam.
Hi , just seen your video on e-bikes in New York , now in this new age after the pandemic show how much we need to change, it’s the way forward to a clearer and greener horizon .🚲🛴🚲🛴🚲🛴🚲🛴🚲🛴🚲🛴🛴🚲🛴🚲🛴
Hey Chris, I feel like made a mistake by misjudging your technical/business decision. I started exploring with e-bikes a few years back,. I was an ex auto/bicycle mech and was attending engineering school so i thought i knew better at the time. I ended up owning 4 e-bikes (2 DIY and 2 entry level production units) and now working in the engineering industry I have truly started to understand what you are trying to delivery to the customers. In the short 5-6 years time i have personally seen the rise and fall of many companies, experienced with online vendors that have min technical support skills and a brand new batteries with failed BMS unit. No customer would want to deal with this for a product of any price and especially not for a piece of equipment that they are trying to use as a daily transportation. So I just want to say you are doing a great job and that you are making a solid calculated decision by concentrating on your technical efforts on a well established company. Looking forward to your videos and hope to visit one of your shops one day.
Very sound decision which will translate to a win win for both us as consumers and you as a business who’s trying to make a positive impact to this growing segment. Bosch looks positioned to make strong steps moving forward based on significant leaps just these past 5 years! Really enjoy your videos Chris!
Hero move Chris.
Thanks a bunch! Always appreciate your support!
Great video Chris!!! I definitely wanted to have a Bosch system on one of my bikes for sure.
Im worried that only one ebike motor company means no reason to make the product better. 🤔 You are stuck like chuck.
Im planning to come to the store and swap out the Bosch Smartphone Hub. The Cobi App that you need to use the Smartphone Hub makes me sad because I had such high hopes for it. 🥺 Bosch hasnt updated the UX at all. Also Bosch’s website docs need an update. 🤔
Chris why not Specialized e-bikes? I have had a great experience with my Specialized Turbo Creo SL Comp Carbon EVO e-bike so far. Its been a year and a half already. I know youre primarily commuter bikes but the weight of the bikes makes a difference when Im commuting some days. My Gazelle bike definitely feels amazing though. 😍
Thanks for going with a non-Chinese motor. I don't want a Bafang and have been "hunting" for a hunting ebike with fat tires. So far, it's not been going well. I may have to build my own, but I think there's a nice market there! Can you make any suggestions for an off-road ebike that can tow or carry a deer out of the woods? The bike dealers sell the commuter ebikes and the sporting goods stores sell the Bafang-powered fat tire bikes. Anyone out there know of another option for us hunters? Thanks.
Do you boys come across a problem with the bosch performance 4 cx motor?I have a 2022 nevo gt and have a problem with a clonking noise that is felt from motor through to cranks only for a second or rwo then back to normal,this is an intermittent action, occurring couple of times on say 12- 15mile run.
Appreciate your comments, please.
Regards mike
Some of the bikes you have are really beautiful. Have you ever considered making your own through converting existing bikes to ebikes?
We actually used to do that. I think if we made our own it would be purpose built, but at the moment we are pretty please with what our partners are producing.
Brilliantly put, Chris! Thanks for the explanation of thought processes behind your decision.
A well thought out decision, and well explained. I wish that you would open a store in the Midwest.
Can you please install a throttle to a bosch cx and see what happens please
Here at ChargeAbout NZ, we are Bosch only also, good move.
Can i ask how does this work? I mean; Bosch doesnt make the bikes... So have you settled on one brand of bike, or buying several brands but only models with bosch motors?
We work with several bike brands that use the Bosch motor
I agree with you, at least for me, I'm not just trying to have fun. I'm trying to use a car less, and so I need something that is just as reliable as my car, and that if needed I can get support for it, because I'm not throwing it away, for what I'm spending on it, I need it to last a long time.
Thanks Michael! Our business is primarily focused on serving folks like yourself.
Hi Chris, good video. I absolutely agree with you. I think long term prospective pay the efforts. But I have a question for you. How do you take in consideration new bike companies? They don't have 100 years experience like bosch but maybe some of them have the same long term way of thinking and what they need is just little time to implement it. What do you evaluate in a brand new company that let you test their new product?
Well said and a good choice (Bosch) to be hooked up with.
Much appreciated!
Totally understandable. Bosch is just the best quality, sensors, integration. They are just reliable. Drive a cx gen 2 since 4 years. My next ebike will have a also a Bosch mid drive.
The waste of buying cheap, untested and low quality bikes that go to landfill is a huge problem. I’m always thinking about that. How to get out of the cheap bike mentality that most countries remain stuck in. And when the product is closely associated with sustainability like e-bikes are, it’s even more important.
Hey Chris, a shout out from the UK...great video and very informative. For a few reasons I'm looking to go down the ebike route and your channel is a mine of information. Long term confidence really is the key the most major life decisions, happy to see you are making the right ones for your company. I wish you every success!
I'm in the UK too and decided to go with Bosch for my ebike after considering the various options. For me support if it goes wrong, a company that is likely to still be in the game years from now, good quality and a good user experience were high on my list.
I noticed that many of the top ebike companies use Bosch exclusively and from what I could see the store I bought my ebike from had only bikes with Bosch motors, mostly Moustache and R&M.
So far I'm pleased with the performance of mine, it was a bit more that I was originally willing to pay but I'm glad I spent the extra. The new Nyon display on it is totally ahead of the competition right now and is really nice to use.