@@MalignMusings effort where I, for example, just finding your channel, skipped an hour and 10ish minutes to the end to try and make out thumbnails and not really seeing them as my screen is small, so no idea whether you even plonked gnoblars into your list or not, but arrgh, too much effort to actually watch the whole thing to see.
You usually release Fanatics in your opponents phase, after you marched the goblins right up in their face. Which pretty much halts most units in the game. Because if the opponent charge through them, they take 6d6 S5 Ap3. They are utterly broken in this edition. Twenty NGs costs around 150pts and thus NGs are S+. 😅 Compare that to those 30 Chaos Dwarfs for 500 points you mentioned. They're not even close in damage output and you can field three of those Gobbo units for the same amout of points. Blorcs are also one of the best Infantry units in the game. Packning 3+ save and T4, they're pretty much cheaper Ironbreakers in core. But hit a lot harder due to Furious Charge, Motley Crew and Choppas. Bargain unit. The "better" choices in OnG are all better than average and cheaper than most comparable units. They have a really good book this edition!
That's what I was trying to say about fanatics. They do have a downside which is that they're in your way too and once the random movement kicks in they can create gaps. You can take 9 in a game, if you've got six, you're likely to roll one double and lose one t1. They are excellent, but swingy and they don't guarantee their points back.
You value state troopers too high and men at arms are actually imo one of the best chaff intantry in the game. You get spears and 5+ save and shieldwall, horde and warband rules all at really low cost. I'd take them over state troopers any day.
Empire state troops as one of the best infantry for 10 points a model with drilled spears while chaos maurders one of the worst at 7 points a model with flails and undivided sure is a take!
I was quite heavily medicated whilst recording this one lol. Drilled is so good though, use can use it before any move, including giving ground... Everything I've played against brets, which is around 10 times now, I've just walked through the men at arms as if they weren't there. Maybe my opponents have not understood how to use them, but they seem to melt to a decent cavalry charge.
I've found Veteran State Troops quite OK with the Griffin Banner and a BSB. They can stack CR very high and still have the numbers. While being a bit expensive, Empire Characters on Demigryphs are dirt cheap and very good for their points - great as anchors in such units. Not the best unit, but absolutley not the worst either.
Yeah, but you have to work very hard to get the right charge off with them. If you get a decent charge off then they can get some of their points back but seriously, a unit of silver Helms can roll them so...
Second comment to say that I really enjoyed the way you talked about the game, I would love to see you do this again with another topic, but perhaps give a run down of what earns each tier on the list, and then point out exceptions (rattling guns and fanatics etc) so as we go through each unit you can explain where they fall flat or where they exceed their role.
It's highly qualitative and opinion driven. They are good videos for generating discussion, and a way for me to learn what people think about stuff and a way for me to challenge my own preconceptions. Of course whilst giving people something to listen to whilst painting.
There's some reasonable analysis in here and some head scratching stuff, but the one that has me absolutely baffled is Marauders. They're 'just trash' apparently, but two entries before Cave Squigs were put in B tier because despite being T3 they have great damage output, with 2 Str5 attacks each. It was fair to consider the balance of the damage against the vulnerability and put them in B tier. But a Marauder with a mark of khorne and flail is also 2 Str 5 attacks (in the first turn of combat). It is true that he can lose frenzy, and only keeps the Str & AP bonus for the first turn, but he has higher AP than the squig and is a full 2 points cheaper. Those seem like pretty even trades to me, but even if someone really preferred the squigs, those advantages can't be used to justify two ranks of difference. It seems likely that the damage output for Squigs was understood, because its right there locked in to the model, while the full damage output for Marauders wasn't considered because you have to review all the available options. The Mark of Tzeentch and light armour and shields are considered, before its concluded these are too expensive. Of course they are, they're bad options. The flail is then considered, but its never put with the Mark of Khorne. The result is a unit that is much like Squigs, squishy but capable of really high damage output against much pricier units, when circumstances favour. Like Squigs it is a B unit. Also, nothing is 'paying points' for unused states. This is mentioned repeatedly in the article but GW doesn't price units by any kind of mechanic that fixes a price based on stats. They just pick a number they think is reasonable. A model with BS 3 and no shooting options doesn't carry a points premium over a model with BS 0 and no shooting options.
For (night) goblins, they only run away when they begin to lose their ranks with warband and horde. They are usually Ld8 to 10, and usually outnumber the opponant, so they will lose combat, but mostly fall back in good order. They hold the line really well.
@@MalignMusings this normally never happens as their first charge will be wasted on 5 wolves riders, but i see what you mean. If they are ranked as infantry only without support i agree with your ranking then. Thanks for the hinsight !
I think Chaos warriors are quite a good combat res builder as their heavy infantry so you only need to be 4 wide. So a unit of 16, (4 by 4) get a static combat res of 4 until you lose 5 models. Now cause their only 4 wide you can combine them with a chariot or monsters to get a really high combat score.
If Hobgoblin Cutthroats could take a magical standard and/or spears they'd be very high tier. Even as it is they are still good troops considering their cost. Paying 3 points for an Empire State Trooper stat line (except Leadership) with shields or shortbows Warband, Horde and Backstab is cheap as chips. A goblin pays the same price for a worse stat line and the drawback of Impetuous and actually has to pay *more* if you give them bows.
I never take the stubborn item for the men at arms. Horde/warband/shield wall getting to use nearby knights leadership, I can literally buy another rank for the cost of the triptych. The only reason they should break easily is if your opponents repeatedly forget that they have levies and peasants duty. That being said, their inability to operate as an independent block without knights in 6” still keeps them lower than the really good choices.
I think Men at arms & yeomen are great, especially in exiles where you can take more missile units, put the BSB right in to the yeoman, & even throw a sergeant at arms if you want
@@MalignMusings I allways take a unit of 20 as fodder for Grut's sickle in march formation. Their shooting never does anything and they don't do anything in combat either. But my magic phases are allways really good and toward the later turns I can use them as a roadblock.
Unfortunately, core chaos dwarf infantry are very bad and definitely do not belong in S probably not even in A, especially not when comparing them to black orks. The blunderbusses are a trap imo, range is way too short, S3 is a wet towel at best, the army basically only wins due to its characters on big monsters with T8 and 9, magic and everything in the armybook that's not a dwarf. Also, men at arms are one of the best infantry units in the game for their points.
Are Lothern Sea Guard better than High Elf Spearmen? Yes. But are they A tier? Not even close. :D But also High Elf Spearmen are tier E. They're just so much expense for a unit that can't even hold half the time. They bleed troops and combat res and don't do damage.
@@MalignMusings yup, agree, but HE Spearmen are just not worth bringing even as a core filler. I find they are more likely to end up dying and panicking everything else. Better at least get some bow shots out of archers
@@nemo-no-name I'm hoping they could be something of an anvil for at least a turn to setup counter charges....will see how it goes. I don't have high expectations but don't want to run all silver helms, it's too cheese for me.
why THE HELL do warriors of chaos dont have "shieldwall" rule ? They cant even pay for it ! You need to go for a chosen warrior to get stubborn, fairly stupid imo. Great video btw !
Love the video but in no way are Corsairs remotely C , they basically are the worst unit in the dark elf army but some margin , which considering that book is half done mess , should put them dead in D
@@MalignMusings that would be true in their case. either they lower their price by 2-3points and min size unit to 5 so we can use them as chaf, or give the sea dragon cloak the same saves as before and lower them 1 point. They used to be good against gunlines, but now, with t3, 5+ save and 11 points each they are too expensive and too fragile for that role.
Rules in this game inherently stack, so ensorcelled weapons stack with 2 AP with forsaken, so you get AP3. There are some things that don't stack, like magic resistance, but they will explicitly state so. Also 5 forsaken are 95 pts, and don't have skirmish :)
@@MalignMusings lol I'm very impressed by the amount of USRs and keywords you know about... everything. It's actually crazy how many rules they put onto all the units in TOW, it sometimes feel like modern 40k. BTW I'm really enjoying your content and especially so with the tier list series. Good work!
I don´t really like that taking 0-1 Black orcs as Core idf you take a Black orc Warboss.. It is such a no brainer if you have either - you have to have both but I mean.. it is a no brainer. And I don´t like that. 6th Ed taking upa Hero and a Lord sucked for the Black orc Warboss.. But the same as choosing between a Shaman lord or a Warboss, it is hard choices.. Much prefer that than taking everything... The real Core mobs are the Orc Warriors and they are fine. They work okay i think. Cheap, Warband and Horde. makes them useable as actual infantry blocks. Goblins are support unless you play pure Goblins...
Mate, do your research, gather your thoughts, do a bulletpoint script, shoot a 20-30 minute video. This is close to unwatchable with you having to constantly look stuff up and getting surprised about rules and prices.
@@MalignMusings Yeah, night goblins are a pure upgrade with just a hero tax per unit. It is probably why the O&G battalion box isn't selling as well in my area.
Witch elves are Missing out of the list I would put StormVermont ahead of clan rats with ratling gun can take it and if you just bring 10 of them it's the same points Also you would only bring one clan rats unit and that's because you're forced
They’re so railroaded on the core choices. It just hurts when half the armies just take minimum core of cav or some archer units. Skaven can’t even do that… people thought this game was the return of rank and flank, but most players are avoiding infantry like the plague
I dont know whether this is a huge timesink, but these kinds of videos would benefit greatly from timeslotting. Great video btw!
Ugh, that's like effort...
@@MalignMusings I completely understand xD Great series nonetheless.
@@MalignMusings effort where I, for example, just finding your channel, skipped an hour and 10ish minutes to the end to try and make out thumbnails and not really seeing them as my screen is small, so no idea whether you even plonked gnoblars into your list or not, but arrgh, too much effort to actually watch the whole thing to see.
You usually release Fanatics in your opponents phase, after you marched the goblins right up in their face. Which pretty much halts most units in the game. Because if the opponent charge through them, they take 6d6 S5 Ap3. They are utterly broken in this edition. Twenty NGs costs around 150pts and thus NGs are S+. 😅
Compare that to those 30 Chaos Dwarfs for 500 points you mentioned. They're not even close in damage output and you can field three of those Gobbo units for the same amout of points.
Blorcs are also one of the best Infantry units in the game. Packning 3+ save and T4, they're pretty much cheaper Ironbreakers in core. But hit a lot harder due to Furious Charge, Motley Crew and Choppas. Bargain unit.
The "better" choices in OnG are all better than average and cheaper than most comparable units. They have a really good book this edition!
That's what I was trying to say about fanatics. They do have a downside which is that they're in your way too and once the random movement kicks in they can create gaps.
You can take 9 in a game, if you've got six, you're likely to roll one double and lose one t1. They are excellent, but swingy and they don't guarantee their points back.
You value state troopers too high and men at arms are actually imo one of the best chaff intantry in the game. You get spears and 5+ save and shieldwall, horde and warband rules all at really low cost. I'd take them over state troopers any day.
Empire state troops as one of the best infantry for 10 points a model with drilled spears while chaos maurders one of the worst at 7 points a model with flails and undivided sure is a take!
I was quite heavily medicated whilst recording this one lol. Drilled is so good though, use can use it before any move, including giving ground...
Everything I've played against brets, which is around 10 times now, I've just walked through the men at arms as if they weren't there. Maybe my opponents have not understood how to use them, but they seem to melt to a decent cavalry charge.
I've found Veteran State Troops quite OK with the Griffin Banner and a BSB. They can stack CR very high and still have the numbers. While being a bit expensive, Empire Characters on Demigryphs are dirt cheap and very good for their points - great as anchors in such units.
Not the best unit, but absolutley not the worst either.
@@VoidBornScum Why would you take undivided with flails for 1 point more you give them frenzy and they turn into cheap glass cannons.
Yeah, but you have to work very hard to get the right charge off with them. If you get a decent charge off then they can get some of their points back but seriously, a unit of silver Helms can roll them so...
Second comment to say that I really enjoyed the way you talked about the game, I would love to see you do this again with another topic, but perhaps give a run down of what earns each tier on the list, and then point out exceptions (rattling guns and fanatics etc) so as we go through each unit you can explain where they fall flat or where they exceed their role.
It's highly qualitative and opinion driven. They are good videos for generating discussion, and a way for me to learn what people think about stuff and a way for me to challenge my own preconceptions.
Of course whilst giving people something to listen to whilst painting.
There's some reasonable analysis in here and some head scratching stuff, but the one that has me absolutely baffled is Marauders. They're 'just trash' apparently, but two entries before Cave Squigs were put in B tier because despite being T3 they have great damage output, with 2 Str5 attacks each. It was fair to consider the balance of the damage against the vulnerability and put them in B tier. But a Marauder with a mark of khorne and flail is also 2 Str 5 attacks (in the first turn of combat). It is true that he can lose frenzy, and only keeps the Str & AP bonus for the first turn, but he has higher AP than the squig and is a full 2 points cheaper. Those seem like pretty even trades to me, but even if someone really preferred the squigs, those advantages can't be used to justify two ranks of difference.
It seems likely that the damage output for Squigs was understood, because its right there locked in to the model, while the full damage output for Marauders wasn't considered because you have to review all the available options. The Mark of Tzeentch and light armour and shields are considered, before its concluded these are too expensive. Of course they are, they're bad options. The flail is then considered, but its never put with the Mark of Khorne. The result is a unit that is much like Squigs, squishy but capable of really high damage output against much pricier units, when circumstances favour. Like Squigs it is a B unit.
Also, nothing is 'paying points' for unused states. This is mentioned repeatedly in the article but GW doesn't price units by any kind of mechanic that fixes a price based on stats. They just pick a number they think is reasonable. A model with BS 3 and no shooting options doesn't carry a points premium over a model with BS 0 and no shooting options.
For (night) goblins, they only run away when they begin to lose their ranks with warband and horde. They are usually Ld8 to 10, and usually outnumber the opponant, so they will lose combat, but mostly fall back in good order. They hold the line really well.
They lose their ranks to a first charging unit though as they become disrupted and therefore lose that benefit.
@@MalignMusings this normally never happens as their first charge will be wasted on 5 wolves riders, but i see what you mean. If they are ranked as infantry only without support i agree with your ranking then. Thanks for the hinsight !
I think Chaos warriors are quite a good combat res builder as their heavy infantry so you only need to be 4 wide. So a unit of 16, (4 by 4) get a static combat res of 4 until you lose 5 models. Now cause their only 4 wide you can combine them with a chariot or monsters to get a really high combat score.
If Hobgoblin Cutthroats could take a magical standard and/or spears they'd be very high tier. Even as it is they are still good troops considering their cost. Paying 3 points for an Empire State Trooper stat line (except Leadership) with shields or shortbows Warband, Horde and Backstab is cheap as chips. A goblin pays the same price for a worse stat line and the drawback of Impetuous and actually has to pay *more* if you give them bows.
Hobgoblins are pretty decent, Chaos dwarfs have loads of decent choices in their core selection.
I never take the stubborn item for the men at arms. Horde/warband/shield wall getting to use nearby knights leadership, I can literally buy another rank for the cost of the triptych. The only reason they should break easily is if your opponents repeatedly forget that they have levies and peasants duty. That being said, their inability to operate as an independent block without knights in 6” still keeps them lower than the really good choices.
It is too easy to just kill the grail monk.
I think Men at arms & yeomen are great, especially in exiles where you can take more missile units, put the BSB right in to the yeoman, & even throw a sergeant at arms if you want
Btw ogres do have infantry. Gnoblars and gnoblar trappers. Where would you have rated them?
I did get to them in the end, they're alright, 2 points a model is quite cheap!
@@MalignMusings I allways take a unit of 20 as fodder for Grut's sickle in march formation. Their shooting never does anything and they don't do anything in combat either. But my magic phases are allways really good and toward the later turns I can use them as a roadblock.
Hmm, curious that I've never considered that. Definitely will be getting a block or two for my fat bois if they become available.
Unfortunately, core chaos dwarf infantry are very bad and definitely do not belong in S probably not even in A, especially not when comparing them to black orks. The blunderbusses are a trap imo, range is way too short, S3 is a wet towel at best, the army basically only wins due to its characters on big monsters with T8 and 9, magic and everything in the armybook that's not a dwarf. Also, men at arms are one of the best infantry units in the game for their points.
The blunderbusses are for standing and shooting? What's been your experience?
Are Lothern Sea Guard better than High Elf Spearmen? Yes. But are they A tier? Not even close. :D
But also High Elf Spearmen are tier E. They're just so much expense for a unit that can't even hold half the time. They bleed troops and combat res and don't do damage.
In comparison to other core infantry yep. Now, almost all core infantry is b or c tier relative to everything else
@@MalignMusings yup, agree, but HE Spearmen are just not worth bringing even as a core filler. I find they are more likely to end up dying and panicking everything else. Better at least get some bow shots out of archers
as someone currently putting a stupid amount of time into painting my spearmen this makes me sad :(
@@oitoitoi1 I feel ya. I kept trying to use my 20 Lumineth spearmen but it's just not working. They stay home now
@@nemo-no-name I'm hoping they could be something of an anvil for at least a turn to setup counter charges....will see how it goes. I don't have high expectations but don't want to run all silver helms, it's too cheese for me.
Can you give link to army books . It is free?
Sady no, they're all behind a paywall, although running through them on videos appears to be fine.
why THE HELL do warriors of chaos dont have "shieldwall" rule ? They cant even pay for it ! You need to go for a chosen warrior to get stubborn, fairly stupid imo.
Great video btw !
I agree.
Love the video but in no way are Corsairs remotely C , they basically are the worst unit in the dark elf army but some margin , which considering that book is half done mess , should put them dead in D
I think they're okay, D tier is for stuff that has almost no chance of getting its points back, would that be true for corsairs in your mind?
@@MalignMusings that would be true in their case. either they lower their price by 2-3points and min size unit to 5 so we can use them as chaf, or give the sea dragon cloak the same saves as before and lower them 1 point. They used to be good against gunlines, but now, with t3, 5+ save and 11 points each they are too expensive and too fragile for that role.
Rules in this game inherently stack, so ensorcelled weapons stack with 2 AP with forsaken, so you get AP3. There are some things that don't stack, like magic resistance, but they will explicitly state so.
Also 5 forsaken are 95 pts, and don't have skirmish :)
If it's a special rule yes. But Armour Piercing isn't, it's a Weapon Stat.
Don't have skirmish, no idea why I thought they did, what an arse...
@@MalignMusings lol I'm very impressed by the amount of USRs and keywords you know about... everything.
It's actually crazy how many rules they put onto all the units in TOW, it sometimes feel like modern 40k.
BTW I'm really enjoying your content and especially so with the tier list series. Good work!
Thanks dude!
I don´t really like that taking 0-1 Black orcs as Core idf you take a Black orc Warboss.. It is such a no brainer if you have either - you have to have both but I mean.. it is a no brainer. And I don´t like that. 6th Ed taking upa Hero and a Lord sucked for the Black orc Warboss.. But the same as choosing between a Shaman lord or a Warboss, it is hard choices.. Much prefer that than taking everything...
The real Core mobs are the Orc Warriors and they are fine. They work okay i think. Cheap, Warband and Horde. makes them useable as actual infantry blocks.
Goblins are support unless you play pure Goblins...
After 39 seconds of watching I would like to comment that i like your voice. To be continued.
Thanks!
Mate, do your research, gather your thoughts, do a bulletpoint script, shoot a 20-30 minute video. This is close to unwatchable with you having to constantly look stuff up and getting surprised about rules and prices.
TBF it was close to unfilmable, might redo core infantry in future as the painkillers were messing with my brain.
Normal goblins still have impetuous while night goblins do not. I think they are the worst unit in O&G.
Apart from dirt cheap bows, but NGs can do that too I suppose?
@@MalignMusings Yeah, night goblins are a pure upgrade with just a hero tax per unit. It is probably why the O&G battalion box isn't selling as well in my area.
Witch elves are Missing out of the list I would put StormVermont ahead of clan rats with ratling gun can take it and if you just bring 10 of them it's the same points Also you would only bring one clan rats unit and that's because you're forced
Skaven feel so awful to play in ToW it's not even funny.
Very sad for the ratmen
They’re so railroaded on the core choices. It just hurts when half the armies just take minimum core of cav or some archer units. Skaven can’t even do that… people thought this game was the return of rank and flank, but most players are avoiding infantry like the plague
Now this one will be interesting.