AoTP: Rebuttal to a Rebuttal

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  • Опубліковано 22 гру 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 17

  • @unhingedmanchild
    @unhingedmanchild 2 роки тому +1

    I'm back three years later with more comments, after playing a bunch more AotP (and working on my own tier list videos!) Here are my thoughts on the colors compared to the two fellas in this video, although with the caveat that I'm taking ALL expansions into consideration; the original AotP set, the Battle for Zendikar, and Shadows over Innistrad:
    First, my rankings:
    1= Green
    2= Blue
    3= *White (Heroes-only builds)
    4= Red
    5= Black
    6= *White (squads or mixed squad/hero builds)
    Green and blue hotly contest the top spot, but IMO green takes the cake for their silly OP power buff sorceries and the Kessig Rangers. At #3 we have white but only if they are using heroes only. Heroes are powerful because they aren't so easily maimed by spells like squads are, and white offers TONS of annoying healing to keep those heroes alive. #4 and #5 IMO is also hotly contested, but I think red being more offensively oriented and having better matchups against black and white squads generally prop them above black. Black is definitely monstrous against squads, but they offer little outside of squad domination. #6 is white squad-based armies or mixed heroes + squads. White's squads are just too easily destroyed, removed, or their enchants too easily destroyed and/or removed, and white's squads are only decent, but nothing special without enchantments to prop them up.
    6:10 = There's just no way even in just the base set that blue is the worst color. Blue is a strong contender for #1, but I personally put blue at #2 because you need to have a ton of experience with blue to know the optimal plays, and honestly I think even optimal play can't save blue from green's ultimate-destruction-via-shitton-of-dice like Titanic Growth, Overrun, Groundswell, Leaf Arrow, Snare the Skies, etc. Jace is dummy OP in stats and abilities, but I don't think Mind Stealer is even that good - Focused Thoughts lets you plan for your next draw or just put cards you won't need until later on the bottom of your deck. I'll win blue games without rolling a D20 even one stinking time for Mind Stealer because of all of the teleporting shit and how beefy the Lantern Geists/Leyline Phantoms are - my opponent's Planeswalker isn't getting fucking near my Jace (except Ob Nixilis.) Lantern Geists' Eerie Observation gives you the ability to scout your opponent's cards and put their powerful shit on the bottom, priming them for destruction via Jace's Erasure when you hit that phase of the game. The Illusionary Projections are annoying as hell in ALL game modes (teleport with no LEA? Yes please) and they can deal great, consistent ranged damage.
    13:55 = White is easily the worst color in scope of the original set. Gideon is hands down the worst PW. White is almost entirely composed of 5-6 move and range 1 figures, including their Planeswalkers (Gideon and Sorin, although Nahiri does sport range 4.) We don't want PWs in melee range, and definitely agree that 6 life is unfortunate for Gideon, he can be easy to kill when defense dice are fickle. IMO Gideon is best played passively - put him on high ground and make your opponent work that much harder trying to kill Gideon. Get your summons out, get your heals and buffs ready, and hope that your creatures can kill the opponent's shit. Sadly, all other colors have ways around the insane 7+ toughness of white squads, so you need to kill your opponent's PW before the opponent murders/unsummons your squads or destroys/steals your enchantments, and killing your opponent's PW is VERY tough when SO MUCH of what white offers is move of 5 or 6 and a range of 1, and white offers no move buffs or disengage. Rhox and Hookers are very reasonable (hell, I think hookers are damn good at 60 points, and Detain is clutch on occasion.) The Pummelroots are better than the Rhox, although I'd argue that they two actually play slightly different roles: I like the Rhox as a passive wall in front. Pummelroots are very much brawler types that are slightly less tanky, but they want to go ham on the enemy with base 4 attack.
    HOWEVER: There is no chat about heroes-only white-based builds in this video, which is the elephant in the room. Consider things like Avacyn, Kor Aeronaut Captain, and Eldrazi Ruiner. Avacyn and KAC both have flying, which is SO useful for mobility and getting engaged with their target of choice. Make an army with a white Planeswalker and two of these heroes (Avacyn + Eldrazi at 600 points is very strong.) White squads tend to suck because they are so easily bypassed by anti-squad shit like black's Snuff Out, At Any Price, Strangling Soot, Killing Wave, Creeping Dread, Crippling Blight, etc and blue's anti-squad shit like Unsummon, Call to Heel, Mind Control, Welcome to the Fold, Aetherspouts, etc. Guess what? White heroes are completely immune to ALL of the aforementioned cards. Black just fuckin folds right over when they face heroes armies; too much of black's greatness comes from their ability to outright kill squad creatures, but they almost totally lack in the ability to deal with hero creatures. Blue still has their teleport shenanigans as well as things like Ghostform and Twisted Image which can help them put pain on white heroes, but it's a much better matchup than white's squads being repeatedly unsummoned (attached enchants destroyed) and mind controlled. For the white heroes-only spell deck, just be 100% sure to toss in spells like Angel's Mercy, Chaplain's Blessing, Healing Salve, Hope Against Hope, Survive the Night, Swift Justice, and Tenacity. No need to get lucky and roll attacks through blue and white high defense squads when they take automatic damage for being adjacent!
    Whew, this is getting long. Going to reply to this with more thoughts...

    • @unhingedmanchild
      @unhingedmanchild 2 роки тому +1

      26:05 = Agree with Bill about green - Nissa is VERY annoying and POWERFUL in the right situations in a unique way. Her ability to move 5, shoot from 7, and then move 3 more is just dummy OP against a slew of range 1 figures who will have a harder time catching her, especially toward the endgame. The elves can be annoying too, but the problem with repeatedly activating them is that your opponent can actively advance on your own "sleeping" PW. IMO the Rangers, while annoying, overlap too much with Nissa. Use Nissa non-stop until you are actually forced into a corner. You can kite white, black, and red for some time with Nissa: summoning your squads too early just forces you to make decisions on who you wish to activate. By using only Nissa and keeping your exposed "surface area" small, your range 1 opponents will struggle to actually do anything in response.
      28:00 = Overrun is probably in top 3 green spells - do you think ANYONE wants to face 5 or 6 attack dice 3 times!?!? Overrun is so key for all green squads. +2 power for one turn is worth it alone - treat the adjacent trample as a bonus but don't focus on it. Use the Rangers' 5 range and murder shit with 3 rolls of 5 dice, who cares about trample, just go kill the opponent''s PW! Think of Overrun like white's Inspired Charge, only Overrun is even easier to utilize because it has no line of sight requirement and the Kessig Rangers/Elf Rangers both have range which can be boosted by Snare the Skies and Nissa's Keen Sight. Skyreaping is passable because it is 5 points and IMO is actually best primarily used for the card draw effect - if there are no flying figures in your game then Skyreaping effectively breaks your deck down to 11 cards and 195 points, it just means you will get the other cards you want more quickly. Primeval Light is a somewhat niche but potentially powerful card! What good enchants does green have for their squads?!? Fog, and maybe Paths Revealed. That's it. I argue that green's best squad-related spells are sorceries: Titanic Growth, Overrun, Snare the Skies, and Elvish Blade Finesse (which can deal 2 damage to a Planeswalker!) IMO Primeval Light is best against the shenanigans of blue and white, which IMO might also be green's toughest matchups. Primeval Light can wreck all of blue's hidden enchants, and if green is worried about psychic rebuttal stopping primeval light, just play Skyreaping as bait first, lol, then primeval light go brrrrr against all other enchants. Primeval Light's primary flaw is that it hurts our powerful green PW enchants: Leaf Arrow and Predatory Strike.
      29:45 = Green's spells are amongst the most powerful! I have no idea how you can think Overrun, Groundswell, Bountiful Harvest, Titanic Growth, Snare the Skies, Leaf Arrow, and Predatory Strike aren't anything except top tier cards. Green wins games just by combining Kessig Ranger (Hunt at Dawn) + Snare the Skies + Titanic Growth, lol. Not many PWs will be healthy or even alive after two attacks of 7 dice at 7 range, let alone actually have a good answer to repair/reverse the situation.
      29:55 = Chandra is pretty mediocre IMO. Super Heated overrated; it basically erases the text on any of your spells and makes them "deal 1 damage to a creature within (5 or 6?) clear sight spaces of Chandra." It's not terrible, but I think most of red's spells actually want to be played for their effect, and are stronger than the effect of Super Heated. Firecats' Haste is very powerful especially if you can summon them onto high ground for that attack. Red's spells are also dummy powerful, like green's. Twinflame, Firebreathing, Seize the Day, Power of Fire, and Stoke the Flames are all wonderful. Twinflame is game-warping on its own, and when its effect can be doubled up on via Sieze the Day, the game is probably curtains. The Firecats can win games on their own with just a tiny bit of buffing, and sometimes luck. Intense Strike is almost always devastating when it consistently procs, give the kitties those power buffs!
      34:25 = Phoenixes aren't really worth conserving. Use all 3 of them as cannon fodder to protect the firecats or just fly them onto glyphs. When the opponent kills some and you can Rebirth them, great, but IMO no big deal if you don't get the chance to bring them back as long as they've enabled your PW or other figures to put in major pain. 100% red is a very bursty color, and once they've burned through their better 2-3 tools/turns, they probably lose - it's definitely a color where you need to know when to press the nuke buttons, kinda like green but without green's range. But IMO red doesn't really lose to white and sometimes not even black. White and black are heavily melee focused and red has tons of shit to punish figures that close in: Incinerate, Haste attacks, Pyroclasm, Circle of Flame, Chandra's Outrage, Firebreathing, the list goes on.
      36:00 = Black is definitely powerful just in the scope of base AotP set, but IMO expansions made them significantly weaker. Many of the spells and figures from BfZ and SoI didn't really do much for them, while white and green in particular were strengthened by what they received in those sets. Black screams like a frightened child at the sight of heroes, especially multiple enemy heroes supported by white healing. Black's heavy reliance on range 1 creatures means their creatures are usually easily destroyed by things like the kiting green (Nissa, Elf Rangers, Equestrian Skill) and blue PW + Lantern Geist body guards, who are also super mobile and hard to kill via combat dice (although Ob's and Lili's abilities definitely turn the Geists into mincemeat, but for Ob it might require overextending, which can be risky.)
      Damnit why aren't there more videos like this? This is a fun discussion, I miss these. Two Bats, come back!

  • @rubenlopez3997
    @rubenlopez3997 6 років тому +6

    Make that "play blue well video" !

  • @epidemic1207
    @epidemic1207 6 років тому +7

    I wish Hasbro kept supporting this game. It had so much potential.

    • @TwoBatsGaming
      @TwoBatsGaming  6 років тому +1

      Agreed, although the C3V community is doing a good job of keeping Heroscape alive. Check em out.

    • @andreasklein525
      @andreasklein525 6 років тому

      Hmm ? Whats the C3V-community ?

    • @TwoBatsGaming
      @TwoBatsGaming  6 років тому

      Prepare to spend a few years reading all the content. Enjoy.
      www.heroscapers.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=75

    • @andreasklein525
      @andreasklein525 6 років тому

      TwoBats Gaming Gotcha. Thanx

  • @petermillen6924
    @petermillen6924 6 років тому +4

    A good friendly discussion. It's good that people still care enough about AotP.
    On balance I am convinced by your put down of RED.
    I remain mystified by BLUE!
    The difference in your rankings of WHITE and GREEN is not decisive, given the limited historical data of results to draw on compared to e.g. MtG or 40K. I would really like to see analysis extended to all three AotP sets.

    • @TwoBatsGaming
      @TwoBatsGaming  6 років тому

      Absolutely dude, we're glad to have you share your thoughts. Quick question: When ranking the 3 AoTP sets (i.e., Which is the strongest color?), how would you handle the issue of multicolored Planeswalkers like Arlinn Kord, etc?

  • @Mrtfarrugia
    @Mrtfarrugia 6 років тому +1

    1:13 do you not know what happens on the internet? 😀

    • @TwoBatsGaming
      @TwoBatsGaming  6 років тому

      Lol, yah, I try to have high expectations for humanity, but I will admit I occasionally get a taste of reality. Luckily everyone's been cool with this one. Thanks for watching.

  • @Ataray51336
    @Ataray51336 6 років тому

    For a world game of 8 people with a big map ,what would you modify for a more pleasant experience .....bigger spell deck , smaller armies bigger armies, maybe place npc mobs such as goblins around the map that give maybe reward like spells? Idk, what would you say?

  • @epidemic1207
    @epidemic1207 6 років тому +1

    Quick questions regarding rules. 1) During my turn, if I start moving and pass by an enemy(aka adjacent to him) does my move end there and make me engaged to that enemy automatically or can I keep moving to not end my move adjacent to said enemy?
    2) If I summon my squads next to or adjacent to an enemy, does that make my creature engaged to that enemy for when I or enemy play his or my army card the next turn?
    Thanks TwoBats.

    • @TwoBatsGaming
      @TwoBatsGaming  6 років тому +1

      1) If you move into any space adjacent to an enemy movement, you do not have to stop, but you will take a leaving-engagement attack from the enemy (or enemies) who's adjacent spots you step out of. In short, you can pass by an enemy, but he gets a free shot when you leave his space.
      2) Yes. Any two opposing units that are adjacent to each other are considered engaged, no matter the circumstances that placed them adjacent to each other.
      Happy to help, enjoy your games!

  • @unhingedmanchild
    @unhingedmanchild 6 років тому +1

    Two Bats - love your AotP videos (I almost exclusively play Heroscape and rare AotP, as far as miniature wargames go.) I have quite a few Heroscape battles on my channel (and I mess up the rules every so often as well!)
    Can’t believe these guys rated blue so low. Base blue is so stupid OP that I feel like it couldn’t possibly be ranked under 3rd best color, even for a total noob. I personally feel that white is worst.
    But, I’m quite curious about the way you’ve been applying line of sight rules in melee combat in at least some of your games. It appears you and your lady friend are requiring line of sight for melee/adjacent figures to make legal attacks? According to BOTH Heroscape and AotP rules, line of sight is NOT required in order to attack an adjacent figure!
    -AotP rulebook: Playing the two player game - Action 4: Attack with one or more figures on the army card (optional.) That section states: Engaged Figures. “.....a figure does not need line of sight to attack a figure that it is engaged with or adjacent to.”
    Those melee units need the love! Just remember that a Firecat can fry you with his fiery farts of doom if he wants to!
    Keep up the good work, I love the AotP/Scape mixed content.

  • @lylyllo
    @lylyllo 6 років тому

    every planewalker in this game hav different tactic to play with, and i think u totall dont understand power of red.. she is little different than other colours in starter. Red is basicly walking canon that shuld attack mostly by her self, and use thier minions .. and use phoenixes as a respawning shield units from mele or spawn panthers and use them as basicly 2 more extra attacks, becouse they can attack while they appear. so u hav defence, that is easy to break but, here comes tactic and in best option it will be like 2 attacks from panter, spell(u can attack here from spell),move, attack(+1 if u burn spell),second attack(+1 if u burn it out) shes tactic is all about burn it all before they get close to you, and burn your way thru. Blessing