Has Star Wars' Relentless Retconning Hurt Its Legacy? | CineFix Top 100
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- Опубліковано 10 лют 2024
- "That's no moon..."
We head to a galaxy far far away to discuss a little space opera that changed the way we make movies, talk about movies, and build franchises out of those movies. George Lucas’ Star Wars stormed onto the scene in 1977 and was relentlessly retconned as they moved to franchise the biggest original IP of all time. Star Wars is inescapable now, but Clint, Cal and Alex try to dissect the movie it was while also keeping in mind all the tinkering, changes, sequels and spinoffs that have followed. How do you talk about a movie that has been discussed, analyzed, and iterated on for nearly fifty years? As a film that has bled into every part of our subconscious, right down to the sound design, is it possible that this doesn’t crack the top 10?
Meanwhile, Dan’s algorithm is busy trying to stamp out the pesky panel rebellions against its absolute power over the list…
CineFix Top 100 is produced by Tayo Oyekan, with Director of Photography, Jamie Parslow and Technical Producer, Marhyan Franzen. Our Executive Producers are Clint Gage, Dan Parkhurst and Corrado Caretto. Logo and graphic design by Eric Sapp and title animations by Casey Redmon.
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My god how did John Williams not get ten minutes of gushing in this episode? lol ❤
Seriously they just lost so much credibility…wtf lol
1.5 hours but NO MENTION OF JOHN WILLIAMS AND HIS ICONIC SCORE FOR THIS FILM!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??! *flips table*
Right?! I am criminally offended by this. I waited the whole segment and nothing lol
Too many sequels, prequels, retcons, and reboots detract from greatness by way of over-explanation, which kills the simplicity, the mystery, and the magic of the originals.
The Biggest issue is most Star Wars media is set in the Skywalker Saga. When most of your stories are tied to other existing plot lines things tend to get convoluted and messy. We desperately need a new timeline in the franchise outside of comics
I respectfully disagree. With Star Wars, at least, I believe the issue lies in the over-reliance on mystery to rationalize story elements that were written to satisfy superficial spectacle over internal logic instead of a marriage between the two.
JJ Abrams himself has gone on record multiple times to advocate for mystery box storytelling and that some of the nonsensical moments in TFA lack sense because the film “Is not a science lesson.”
It’s not easy, but a unified internal exposition, mystery/setup, and engaging presentation is achievable. Take the Falcon’s escape from Tatooine in ANH. In just a few short lines of dialogue, Han tells us everything we need to know about lightspeed for the first 6 films.
I generally agree, but when I go back and watch the OGs, I'm usually able to escape and suspend disbelief well enough to where it doesn't bother me
It’s worth being so old to have seen the original Star Wars in the theater in 1977 when I was 16 years old. I saw it 7 times that first summer. No other movie has made such an impact on me.
Lord of the rings was my eras
I was 19 in 1977, but yeah, I was literally stunned when I walked out of the theater the first time I saw it.
I was in primary school.
15 when it came to liverpool January 1977. Went 19 times with watching it when it was double, and then triple showings clocked 23 times and, on the 35th anniversary, went back to the original cinema and sat in the same seat as the first time. But my love of it started to die with the ewaoks, cannot even spell them. The changes and the trade dispute in the 1st prequel. Rogue One is the best Star Wars film.
Yep, it came out on general release in early 78 in the U.K - saw it with my dad. We were stunned - Seeing it when it was fresh and unexploited was truly a blessing and for me has made the film immortal. Diminished? - no chance!
If you're a Gen-Xer and saw it in the theater in 1977 you understand what a huge deal it was. I was 7 years old and remember with all the kids it was a contest to see how many times you could see it. It was a true defining term of "blockbuster" as there were always lines outside the theaters on its first run. Our childhood really had a clear dividing line pre and post Star Wars it changed everything! I remember my first day of school 1978 half the kids were wearing Star Wars T-Shirts and the Kenner toy line topped everyone's B-day and X-mas wish lists. In the non-digital media world it was a big deal when it aired on TV the first time.
I’ll say that there is still no 10min piece of any movie that is as thrilling as the Death Star run. It is utterly gripping from start to finish in a way few films ever are.
It is a perfectly executed action sequence. John Williams' score really nails it too. What's crazy is the Death Star attack was originally scripted and shot to be an unprovoked attack on the Death Star in the middle of space, NOT attacking the Rebel base on Yavin IV. In post production it was changed that the Death Star would be orbiting Yavin to destroy the base which made it much more tense. I love the audio recordings people made in the theaters in 1977 that underscored how excited audiences were seeing it for the first time.
@@axnyslie The music and the editing of the attack are excellent. What really affects my enjoyment of that sequence was the special effects. A lot of them were great, but some have not aged well at all, especially close-up shots of the Death Star surface, which are clearly foam rubber.
You have Marcia Lucas to thank. She edited that entire sequence.
14:25 i can't belive I've never thought of han solo as a guy who is proud of his junker car he works on on the weekends with a dog, that amazing, it's changed everything XD
When I was 9, my "Star Wars" movie was "2001: A Space Odyssey".
I saw the original Star Wars at 17 in wrap around 70mm at the Uptown Theater in Washington, DC.
I snuck up into their closed balcony for one of the Space Battle scenes. It was so engrossing it made me sea/space sick.
I was 9 when I saw Star Wars on opening day in 70mm at the Uptown. I don't remember much about seeing it in theaters then; weirdly what I remember best is seeing the trailer for Star Wars before the movie The Silver Streak. Me and my brother and father were all hyped for it from the trailer which is why my dad took the family to the Uptown.
I have a VHS that's just "Star Wars", no Episode IV, no A New Hope.
My favourite torf is that Cushing wore slippers when shot from above the waist, as the costume boots were too tight and uncomfortable
No matter the recons and sequels and such, this will still be the most impactful film of my life.
I will say, 1 hour and 30 minutes and no mention of John Williams might be a sin. Granted as stated at the top, its hard to talk about Star Wars without saying something that has already been said, and the score is one of those things that has been discussed to death
I felt like the generation shift around the release of Phantom Menace has one more layer than you described. There's the folks who were like 8-10 years old and thought Jar Jar was funny and liked the movie. There's the generation who was more like 20 and thought Episode I was stupid and felt betrayed that Star Wars could suck. Then there's us old farts who had watched the Holiday Special on TV and already knew that Star Wars could suck, and were disappointed but not surprised.
I think the real millennial/ gen z divide is what you think of the prequels
I was born in 1984; so naturally my entry into Star Wars was Spaceballs
The problem is they forgot the main ingredient that made the first Star Wars film a hit: IT WAS FUNNY! It was a really fun movie copied from the hilariously campy 1930s Flash Gordon series and mixed with the excellent samurai film Hidden Fortress. All the films they've made since the original three have been insufferably serious when they should have been enjoyably silly. (Lore has it the enjoyable angle came for George Lucas's now ex-wife from whom he separated towards the end of making Empire Strikes Back, so there's that explanation as to why things changed from Return of the Jedi onward.)
It's strange to heart you say that when one of the complaints fans had about the prequels was it was too goofy and the sequels had quips like an MCU movie. The first Star Wars is fun but Empire is darker which is one of the reasons fans think it's the best. I think one of the reasons fans can't be satisfied is they want a new Star Wars to be as fun as the first movie but somehow also be as serious as the second.
Well, before watching I will say it's my favorite Star Wars movie and one of my favorites of all time. I love how self contained it is, it totally stands on its own as just a great film. You wouldnt necessarily have to watch the other films, it wraps everything up pretty nicely. Taking inspiration from a bunch of film and TV shows before it, but making it fresh. Obviously the Flash Gordon and Kurusawa stuff being the big inspiration. I also love how humble of a film it is, they had no clue the juggernaut this franchise would become. Truly, just an all time classic. Even if some of the acting and dialog is hokey haha.
I can still remember the original Krayt Dragon call Ben makes.
Yep! Can still hear it in my head as well. Has Lucas ever explained why he changed it? 🤔
I don’t consider myself old but I saw this in the theaters when I was 10.
I went to see the prequels because you were supposed to but I don’t remember ONE thing about those movies.
Clint is getting those sweet Jack In the Box voiceover residuals to even think of how important John Williams score to Star Wars is.
2 when it came out, grew up with it. Saw the re-release onwards on the big screen, can watch it any time. Shame your sound was off. Brilliant, amazing... about time
I usually disagree with Cal on most things, but he's on fire in this episode.
Ok...New Hope was revolutionary, magnificent and...unavoidable for any list of the greatest movies ever. Nice conversation, it has been a joy listening to you folks!
In 1977, at 7 years old, my first Star Wars moment was actually seeing “Star Wars” in the theaters and drive-in. Somethings that later came full circle when my son saw the last Star Wars film in theaters when he was 7 years old.
I was born in 65 and Star Wars was the first film I saw as a kid. I went back to the theatre twice a week for 2 years. It was amazing.
There's a book called "The Princess, the Scoundrel, and the Farm Boy" that has Kenobi talking to R2 when Luke isn't paying attention talking about their past.
I know it’s an original script but Kurosawa still should’ve had a shoutout for Hidden Fortress
Before I have seen Star Wars the first time, I have been cutting out the pictures of magazines, newspapers and TV guides for some time. It looked so interesting and spectacular to me! I was surprised to learn Han Solo wasn't the main hero. 😲
Always wondered if you guys were drinking beer during these episodes. And there it is, Voodoo Ranger of New Belgium no less, nice. Cheers :)
I have a theory (and it is just a theory) that after Marcia left in 1983, George Lucas had a notion to make his own 'Lord of the Rings' cycle with Warwick Davis as a lead. It started with two TV movies...
1984 - Ewoks: Caravan of Courage (Fellowship)
1985 - Ewoks: Battle for Endor (Two Towers)
...and later...
1988 - Willow (Return of the King)
Again, just a theory, but it's that same Jungian/Joseph Campbell "it rhymes" gobbledygook that George used to cobble 'Star Wars' together out of 'Hidden Fortress', 'Dam Busters' and Frank Herbert’s 'Dune' books.
I remember seeing it in '77 and falling in love with it within the first minute, between the opening crawl and the first shot of the star destroyer flying overhead.
That poster of Anakin as a boy casting the shadow of Darth has to be one of the best movie posters of all time ;)
If you saw Star Wars in the 70's, you KNOW what it meant to us. That feeling can never be diminished, because we were there and we saw it, we FELT it!
David Prowse wasn't given the ACTUAL line for Empire Strikes Back because he had a history of blabbing to English tabloid reporters, he absolutely would NOT keep things under his hat. So when Kershner told Hamill what the real line was going to be, Hamill claims that Kershner said, "No one else knows about it but me, George, and now you. So if it gets out, we'll know how it got out."
I was born in 1987 so Star Wars has been a part of my entire life. And A New Hope is my absolute favorite not just Star Wars movies, but my all time favorite movie
Can we all agree that the Phantom Menace, while not a good movie, has the best light-saber battle of any Star War and Duel of the Fates slaps?
I love where this channel has gone
Given the only Star Wars many have seen is the director's cuts from '97, yeah I'd say eventually it will just be a "meh' forgotten "B" movie, in like a hundred years.😢
Can we add to the Nick Cage game and start asking to recast every movie with Muppets?
I swear on my life, my first exposure to Star Wars was a VHS Copy of the Christmas Special.
I distinctly remember being confused by the Little Wookie watching the TV to build the Synthesizer Thing and I lost interest.
Star Wars A New Hope was the very first Movie Movie. Almost every frame is a sort of reference to another classic movie. The twin sunset scene is directly lifted from John Ford's The searchers. The whole trench battle was created using cut together reerence footage from The Dam Busters and Squadron 633. Lucas was a classic movie geek.
[If (for some reason) the current versions of 4K77 and Harmy's Despeciallized Edition aren't good enough for you...]
I would bet that for the 50th Anniversary in 2027, Disney will release a remastered version of the original, unaltered theatrical edition of STAR WARS on 4K UHD.
I know you're going to get around to doing "2001: A Space Odyssey" and when you do you need to talk about how that movie has also been retconned. Sometime in the 90's, I believe, Kubrick oversaw a remastering for - Criterion? - and he was making it look much darker than it had ever looked before. And this was a movie that had been famous since it was released in 1968 for how bright and shiny it looked. This has had an influence on every subsequent home release. There are shots that had been famous for decades that are not in the later remasterings, such as the "contrast-shift" in the shot of Jupiter aligned with its moons just before the entry into the stargate. That was part of a test that Kubrick saw and decided that it looked magical because of the way it "popped" for just a brief moment and decided to keep it in. And don't get me started on how dark and off-color the opening MGM logo card is. "2001: A Space Odyssey" just does not look like it used to and I feel sorry for anyone watching it for the first time these days.
Fantastic, brilliant and just Fantastic
Original? It has been called a rip off, and in some ways it is unoriginal. But I love it. As a 9 yo, having barely grown up on Saturday morning cartoons such as Super Friends and reruns of Looney Toons on weekdays my jaw dropped to the floor and stayed there the entire movie at the local $2 theater in 1977. Caused me to shove my way through a crowd of other kids to plunk down $16.95 on a Texas Instruments Star Wars digital watch in black wuth Darth Vader on it. The coolest thing ever at the time.
So season 2 has had SEVEN samurai, THREE amigos, star wars episode FOUR...
Im calling it now: Next episode is going to be TWO fast 2 furious.
The theme is numbers in the title. ive figured it out
While Lucas wrote a Hero's Journey film, and his creations are protected by copyright, they were - by no means - original. If you consider A) where he first showed an early version of Star Wars (San Diego Comic Con) and B) the epic, cosmic fantasy saga that Jack Kirby had already created in 1970 (The New Gods, with Darkseid, Highfather, The Source, Mark Moonrider, Scott Free, etc.) and that Jack Kirby was also co-creator of Doctor Doom (whose written voice you hear coming out of Darth Vader's helmet), I submit that Lucas was inspired by Jack Kirby's "Fourth World Saga" (as well as some highly influential Japanese samurai movies and the like). The New Gods all had super-powers and were focused on Earth due to Darkseid (pronounced Dark-Side) seeking out the final piece of the anti-life equation there. All of their powers came from The Source. High Father had already brokered a deal to keep Darksied from warring against his planet (New Genesis) by trading their first-born sons (Scott Free and Orion) as a peace agreement. So, Scott Free had grown up, never knowing that Highfather (Izaya) was actually his own dad, but had a yearning to break free from Darkseid's planet (Apokolips). Orion, however, had grown up on New Genesis and had learned to appease his darker tendencies, utilizing a living computer tied to The Source, called a "Mother Box". Mark Moonrider, one of the Forever People wielded the "Megaton Touch" through his connection with The Source - it was deadly, but with practice he learned to control its intensity to non-lethal methods. While these details seem rather a wide cast away from Star Wars, there are definitely connections to Star Wars and there is absolutely no doubt that Spielberg, having studied John Huston, knew to look to comic books as ideas for storyboarding (at the very least) and to continually develop a forward-thinking vision, cinematically. No coincidence, here. Lucas knew that people like him loved Comic Con, so showing his film there certainly helped form a built-in audience and a lot of buzz for the upcoming science fantasy epic.
I mean what is Star Wars any more? This relentless retconning is just diluting the incredible achievement of a new hope and empire. Can't stop the money train though.
Wait, does the caption under Clint's name in the beginning suggest he's a space station?
I can’t be the only one who immediately yelled “Jawas” every time she referred to Sand People shooting R2
YES...YES...YES!!! She (Alex?) Does it twice 🤬
No MVP, no mention of John Williams. No mention of Family Guy. Bad sound. Wtf guys. Liked this but wanted to love it.
I was 2 in 1977 according to my mother I was transfixed on the screen for the whole run time
Welcome to the future !
We turn 49 this year...
Same. All these whippersnappers have no idea that there is a particular group of Star Wars fans who have it coded into our DNA from watching it at such a formative age.
23:33 Solo takes place 8-9 years before ANH, not a few months.
Yes, some of the dialogue is clunky. On the other hand, part of the brilliance of Lucas’ script is the frequent use of “in media res” speech. Of course, this baffles cast that aren’t “in” on the backstory that only exists in Lucas’ head. Ford famously declares, “George! You can type this s***, but you sure can't say it!” Much of the dialogue assumes information that the audience is unaware of but that is taken for granted by the characters on screen (even if the actors playing those characters are clueless).
This kind of writing gives life to the world building. The viewers imagination is allowed to assume aspects of the universe that are not strictly presented on screen. There is no need for large exposition dumps because the audience is allowed to put 2 & 2 together on their own, unlike many modern action movies today.
Oh it better be a top 10, its my #1
Opinion; The pre-existing IP/sequel/reboot problem in Hollywood isn't because of Star Wars or any other franchise. It's because the people making decisions about what gets made DO NOT KNOW what makes a movie successful.
Yes. Next!
I just read the star wars wiki for a few hours. It's a jungle out there. Forget what is canon, it's just a ridiculous mess. A VERY interesting mess.
1977 Lucky Lady starring Gene Hackman and Burt Reynolds was supposed to be the big movie of the summer It also starred Liza Minnelli. Three of the biggest stars on the planet in a 1930s Prohibition romp. Star Wars was booked for only two weeks in theaters and set tobe pulled to make way for Lucky Lady.
Number 20? I'm fine with that. Truly surprised it was so high on Cal's list and must conclude he does not feel that Empire was better, which is certainly a take I can understand, if not agree with it. No one said personal rankings had to be objective in any manner. Oh, and I was 5 when it came out and consider it very influential in my life.
I find your lack of JOHN WILLIAMS’ OSCAR WINNING ALL TIME GREAT SCORE concerning.
Did the new movies and shows retcons lessen the magic of the OT for me? No. Watching them at least 500 times did! People say they want the simplicity of the first movie but what they actually mean is discovering this world with all its wonder fresh like when they were young and everything was unfamiliar. The reason we still watch any new Star Wars is the hope of getting some of the same feeling of watching the original movie the first time.
Seeing "Star Wars" naively in the theaters, original release at 9 was mind blowing. Rewatching, seeing C3PO walking across the desert, I'm struck by the fact that Anthony Daniels is actually stuck in that hellish suit, and he's walking across a real desert! I realize such knowledge, available to me then as a child, engenders sympathy for the character; I feel like C3PO is uncomfortable because he's gotta be. Now, it'd all be shot on green screen, losing the subconscious reaction from the audience. "Star Wars" DID set one thing up , though--the shocking fall from grace of the "Star Wars Holiday Special," which I also watched in its entirety, naively. Traumatizing disappointment! Cognitive dissonance! How? Why?
Never once mentioned John Williams or the score. I used to have respect for this channel…lol
The Hidden Fortress in space.
Star Wars is the one with the little wizard boy right?
You have to understand, R2 is a class of droid that is as ubiquitous in the SW galaxy as toasters are in own lives. Why would Ben recognize one specific droid out of MILLIONS in the galaxy? Ben never owned R2-D2. R2 belonged to Padme, he was one of the astromechs on the royal yacht. I've never watched the Clone Wars animated series, so I'm not sure when/how it came about that she gave/lent R2 to Anakin for him start using in his starfighter, but there is no reason for Ben to know this droid. He never owned any droids, and there are millions of R2 units in the galaxy. I can't imagine that every one of them has a specifically different color scheme, and there is nothing special about R2's construction that would make him stand out. Also, he hasn't seen that droid in 18 or 20 years, and it's not like there is a big nameplate giving his designation.
obviously nicholas cage should have been old obiwan that’s the best choice and alec guinness would be happy too.
also i personally never cared much about han solo. leia is badass of course but i’ve always admired luke whose strength is not just his nepo magic but his infectious, true hope in the face of the impossible.
That guy looks so much like Pedro Pascal
I think Marvel is allowed to ret-con because there has always been multiple source materials. Comics have had a history of re-editions and alternate timelines, so it’s fine in the MCU. What Lucas did was more egregious. To use Cal’s term this movie was a “foundational text” and should never have been messed with. Even the new Disney movies seem to have no respect for established canon and just constantly break pre-established lore. Its hard to make everything make sense together now which is sad
Damnation Alley with George Peppard was the other movie from Fox.
This is still a perfect movie. It's just pure movie magic.
Did we miss any lists???? Fucking Music!!! Music!!!!
A New Hope = 6 Oscars. Empire = 1 Oscar. That's it. No Oscar wins for anything else.
Ha, ha…I saw Star Wars and Empire on opening day. Two days late for Return but still.
‘If’ has huge potential
One thing that pisses me off not only with these Star Wars sequels but other movie sequels.
Whenever a studio tries to give us the next generation of heroes it seems mandatory to kill off the old ones. Why?
I mean both Han Solo and Luke could leave room for the next generation without dying.
Solo could do what every rogue/space adventurer do just leave for the next adventure and walk out alive but noo they had to kill off Solo and make Luke a depressing f who also is killed off.
Hated what they did with Pacific Rim in the same way they killed off Mako and wrote out Becket out of the story too soon.
I would had loved to see what Becket and Mako story was going even Pentecost who hinted even if dead you will always find me in the stream.
He could have been some sort of ai/memory who still gave our heroes asvices.
But no they killed them off to leave room for "new" generation.
In my head canon Uprising does not exist and Mako and Becket is ready to take the figh to the aliens controlling the Kaiju.
When do they actually get to the topic in the title?
Star Wars over Seven Samurai is crazyyy
That Southpark Mickey Mouse was spot on.
I’m 50 and in my opinion there are only 3 Star Wars movies 1977-1983.
Love this movie
When was I 9 years old? Why in 1977! Lolol
No one remembers Jaws 4.
At least it wasn’t retconned as much as Frankenstein (the book)
How about that R2 and Chewie had scripts even though we couldn't understand them?
Star Wars is a decent enough fun film. But thats it. Ive mever made a personal top 100 but I cant imagine Star Wars would make it into it. Certaintly not a top 50 for me.
Awesome episode!
Personally I'd rather watch the movie is what inspire him to make this movie it's not very good and it's over anyone who said they like this movie The other seen it when it first came out or saw it when they were a little kid
There are more filler "likes" in this coversation than there are "likes" for the episode. Fun chat.
Oooh they didn't do an MVP? The answer is Martha Lucas.
Nick Cage as Red Leader for sure.
How IGN butchered Cinefix's legacy after they acquired it.
I can see Cage as Han Solo...
uh ho. If Cinefix is addressing this, DLF is in _trooouble_
Star Wars needs a break for 20 years. They milked it to death and ruined parts of it with the sequels and all the tv shows.
Let Dune and Warhammer 40k be the new space dramas for awhile.
Lord of the rings over Star Wars in almost every aspect.
Star Wars opened on a Friday in 1977; I saw it the next day. As a 14-year-old, I got every bit of information I could about it. From what I read, Lucas did not have a plan for more movies until after it became a success. The Empire Strikes Back improved on the orginal. Return of the Jedi was originally called Revenge of the Jedi, but that got neutered down just like the movie and Darth Vader. The final nail in the coffin for the franchise when I saw Anakin's ghost with Obi-wan at the end of that movie. The Star Wars universe for me is just the first 2 movies, and with Han Solo shooting first.
He’s the voice
31:35 Sounds like you guys are still basing your opinions on that one idiotic RocketJump video and haven't seen the Nerdonymous video debunking it.
Without Ben Burtt & John Dykstra Star Wars wouldn't be the same
Don't forget John Williams. And like it or not George Lucas. But the joint effort and talent made it so there are surely some more to mention.
Revenge of the Sith came out May 2005