Anyone else cringe around 22:00, where there's now a precision ground ceramic ball with finger grease/dirt on it? Wipe that down with alcohol! No touchy the reference standards! :P
Meanwhile, we started making our own probes in my previous company since the manufacturer wanted $45 for an M8 thread and a ø4mm +-.001 ground ball. A run of 30 usually cost around $400 and we'd get +-.0001 tolerance
@@Eggsr2bcrushed its cheaper in Europe but its plastic peace of shaft and ruby ball on the end. You have to screw it in and calibrate it for runout and calibrate it in machine . Sometimes its 20 min bussines sometimes is one hour for switch broken for new one .
@@Eggsr2bcrushed Yeah, ours are about $140 from our local Haas reseller. My boss didn't even allow me to buy an extra because he's a cheapskate and would rather have a stop in production.
John is normal the difference in the tip diameter. All the digitizer probes have a bit of overtravel before the probe is triggered. So the tip diameter is always a bit smaller. Because you need to interrupt the contacts inside the 3D probe digitizer. For instance my probe has 3mm ruby tip and I measured 2.87mm tip diameter during calibration. As long you calibrate the probe tip with a known object then the actual tip diameter doesn't matter, but only the one you measure on the machine counts. I hope it makes sense for you as I explained.
That's what I came here to say. You care about the "effective" diameter of the ball, not the litteral one, otherwise you could just mic the ball and type that in.
Also this is why the new tip measured smaller than the old one; the longer shaft means more X/Y travel to deflect the probe by the same angle - so you measure a smaller effective diameter.
The difference in ball diameter is due to the longer length of the tip. Because the tip has to move to break the electrical circuit in the probe to register a touch, the extra length means a little extra overtravel movement for the same tip deflection angle, making the machine think the ball is a smaller diameter. That's why the ring gauge probe calibration is so crucial.
The calibration routine is giving you the results minus the deflection distance of the probe trigger. You would need to add in the deflection distance to get the real measurement number.
its batery in probe i am using OMP 60 renishaw and batteries holds like one year. But iam working like 10 hour day maximum . Anyway change is pretty simple it tooks like one minute and its using common AA batteries. Activated by Mcode . Using radio eye built in machine. Yes and its know when battery running low probe signal you with colour blinking.
a little tiny travel(millionth) is needed to trigger the signle, in all direction. And the tool setter is less accurate in terms of repeatbility compare to the probe.
13:22 you should probably do that every time you measure a new tool. I do this because our machine moves a little bit after some time and then the tool may be measured +-0.01 in length and diameter
Can you make custom end effectors for the robot, and custom shelving for the enclosure, for custom parts? Like do they sell blanks with the pin that interfaces with the arm, so you can make custom end effectors that bolt onto it?
Compared to downtime it doesm[t make much difference what the probe costs. I wonder how thick the in from his fingers was snd how much swarf the magnets gathered up. It's been 35 years, but I don't need to look at a video to center something with 4 screws.
It is the worst when that happens. On my CMM, I broke my main probe twice. I was glad to have back ups. I keep about 5 in stock and more of the large one as it is shared with a few cncs on the shop floor
Such a bummer when you break those tips! A great tip I learned is to put allen keys in the opposing set screws to aid in dialing the tip in. Makes those adjustments much easier. Not that I have had to do it a half dozen times in my career...hahahahaha! Everything is rainbows, right?
Quick little video.. look at the time, 30min 😂 thanks for sharing! Got a probe coming with my 1100mx haven't used one yet I've only used an edge finder and haimer so far I'm excited to learn probing routine
@@alexanderhuff8758 Awesome! Looking forward to it! been using a haimer on my 770m and it's nice but really looking forward to using the probe. planning on getting David Loomes wireless conversion kit so I can put it in the toolchanger.
John love the videos, I’m curious to know why you’re using imperial measurements and not metric being based in Canada. Not saying one is better than the other. I’m just curious as in the Uk everything is metric.
Because of our proximity to the USA, we learn to think in inches and thousandths. All the materials are in standard inch sizes Measuring tools like tape measures are either inch, or combo metric inch, no metric only. Fractional, Number and Letter drills are in the hardware store, metric is special order at an industrial dealer Inch NC Hex head cap screws with NC thread is available in bulk by the pound or the pail at the farm store, metric are in the drawer-individually wrapped- $10 each Grocery store advertising flyers are listed in $ / pound because $ / KG is twice as much and they all want to seem competitive Our road sign speeds are in KM/H Our gas is sold by the litre Our milk is sold by the litre Weather temperatures are in *C Heat treatment temperatures are in *F That's just the beginning
Unlikely with this precise a machine but just a thought, is there a way to double check that on the ball it was actually measuring at the outer most point? It kind of looked like it was just tapping to find the biggest diameter and maybe it skipped over it a few thousandths causing the difference? Whereas the ring gage is the same all of the way around where that variable doesn't even exist.
Hi John. Top end CMM machines still measure a 1mm probe slightly smaller and actually the guidance is to set the effective probe diameter to 0.997mm. This is due to the trigger force needed and the amount of deflection. Just a side note have you measured the actual probe in the machine it common to find probes mixed up and a 0.7mm is a common diameter also. Love the problem solved videos keep them up
sounds like there's a small dead zone in the travel of the probe before it registers deflection. the radius of that dead zone would be subtracted from the radius of the ball, which would explain the difference between the measured diameter and the diameter from the calibration. as long as that value stays consistent, it's fine. but best to check the documentation; if that's there by design (or is considered an allowable variation) then you can probably be pretty sure that dead zone radius will stay consistent. but if that's not supposed to be there then it's probably damage from your probe crash, in which case relying on it would be a risky proposition.
It reads the tip size radius wrong becouse you have have a longer probe tip. It is simple geometrics. When u set your z heigt of the tool ist just the total length wich is changed, not related to length betwen tip and pivot point inside the tool.
The diameter doesn't really matter all that much since the probe works off trigger values (the tip can be spot on "3,00 mm", whereas the actual trigger when in cycles are something like "2,87 mm" (or half that value - depending on what type of machine is used..) It's actually similar with the length, as in some cases you don't actually want the total length (it can interfere with the trigger-value because it doesn't travel far enough). Instead it can be center point of the tip (so half of the tip diameter - total length = tool length). Sure, it can differ from machine to machine and company to company. But that's at least how I've learnt setting up new probes.
I remember seeing a video of a guy that bought a bunch of precision little ruby balls and machine himself the little arm that holds them He was gluing them using epoxy. He was saying that even if the ball is not perfectly center or not at the perfect length does not matter as you need to center is anyway with your 4 screw adjustment. Can't find the video anymore. Sorry, I will keep searching
honest question, if you did not had to film all this (Wich slows you down considerably) how long would it take (aka: how much would it cost you) to get back operational and it being trustworthy?
Usually one calibrates a probe in a ring gage, easy and fast. The data table (results)will always show the probe stylus ball a little smaller, never exactly the physical size. What it shows and uses in the cycles is the "deflected" switching point of the probe with that particular dia. of ruby ball. But smaller the difference the better, the machine so to speak. And hence the need to calibrate once in a while. Good showcase of a Blum probe.👍👍
What is your estimated down time to complete these processes if you have to replace the probe again, assuming you’ve now figured out the required steps and procedures? Very interesting video. 👍🏼👍🏼
3 роки тому
Why cant you measure the length with the laser and then take away as much as the probe needs to register the touch?
Lovely Now go write an SOP for this process. If you're out of action, feels like nobody else can do this beside you. Oh wait, this whole video is and SOP 😂😂
Try using the fixture face to set Z for the probe. The face that your pallets mount to. This face should not change ever. *finishes the vid* Oh.... belay my last.
Mh... you are touching the calibration ball on only 4 points. Maybe that is where the wrong diameter comes from. More points = more accurate measurement. I would go for at least 16 to be sure.
John, not trying to sound rude but is your time not more valuable? Could you not hire someone who can do this or upskill a current employee? You seem to be clinging on to the higher level tasks which you seem to enjoy but might not be the most efficient use of time. It is painful to watch you spend hours doing tasks someone else might be able to do in 10 minutes. I would seriously consider a member of the team who is able to help you with calibration, programming, cycle time reduction, choosing new tools and tool paths
@@frp1276 I don’t think it was an oversight that slipped through qc. I’ve looked through the archives and it seems to be something they’ve taken out of the design. I was just looking to see if someone had any information on this.
Hi John, For someone who tries to do things better than the other guy I'm surprised. a) Why aren't all your tools/probes the same between machines? This way you only need to keep a few spares of the same tool on-site. b) To calibrate the tool probe, by cutting using a un-used endmill? I'm really confused there is too many varibles off-sets/defelctions/. Why not just use a gauge block?! or heck the built in tool probe? It really sounds like you need to sit down, and look at all the tools you use and condense them. All your endmills should be the same, probes etc. This way if something does brake you have spares or you can get it from another machine. I used to like the old videos, shorter, and more useful information. Now it seems like the videos you put out are you making excuses for why it's taking so long to produce $300 pens, and $1000 knives.
Anyone else cringe around 22:00, where there's now a precision ground ceramic ball with finger grease/dirt on it? Wipe that down with alcohol! No touchy the reference standards! :P
“I’ve got a quick little video for you” *looks at timestamp
Indeed 🤣
To make a long story short, or a short story long....
To make a long story short, or a short story long.... 😆
Keep it up John! Thanks for the treasure trove of info!
Ps. Will this be covered on the BOM?
Wait, $38 CAD for
Meanwhile, we started making our own probes in my previous company since the manufacturer wanted $45 for an M8 thread and a ø4mm +-.001 ground ball.
A run of 30 usually cost around $400 and we'd get +-.0001 tolerance
Renishaw 6mm ruby tips with 100mm shaft are over 100$
@@Eggsr2bcrushed If you order ten you get a free jug of machinist tears.
@@Eggsr2bcrushed its cheaper in Europe but its plastic peace of shaft and ruby ball on the end. You have to screw it in and calibrate it for runout and calibrate it in machine . Sometimes its 20 min bussines sometimes is one hour for switch broken for new one .
@@Eggsr2bcrushed Yeah, ours are about $140 from our local Haas reseller. My boss didn't even allow me to buy an extra because he's a cheapskate and would rather have a stop in production.
John is normal the difference in the tip diameter. All the digitizer probes have a bit of overtravel before the probe is triggered. So the tip diameter is always a bit smaller. Because you need to interrupt the contacts inside the 3D probe digitizer. For instance my probe has 3mm ruby tip and I measured 2.87mm tip diameter during calibration. As long you calibrate the probe tip with a known object then the actual tip diameter doesn't matter, but only the one you measure on the machine counts. I hope it makes sense for you as I explained.
That's what I came here to say. You care about the "effective" diameter of the ball, not the litteral one, otherwise you could just mic the ball and type that in.
Also this is why the new tip measured smaller than the old one; the longer shaft means more X/Y travel to deflect the probe by the same angle - so you measure a smaller effective diameter.
@@mikewalters4138yes, totally correct ☺️
The difference in ball diameter is due to the longer length of the tip. Because the tip has to move to break the electrical circuit in the probe to register a touch, the extra length means a little extra overtravel movement for the same tip deflection angle, making the machine think the ball is a smaller diameter. That's why the ring gauge probe calibration is so crucial.
Had a coworker crash a spindle probe on a Haas a few years ago. Guess what i got to do the next day hahaha. I also reset the tool setter.
The calibration routine is giving you the results minus the deflection distance of the probe trigger. You would need to add in the deflection distance to get the real measurement number.
Super cool. Does the spindle provide power to the probe? Or if it has a battery, does it know when it has gone low?
its batery in probe i am using OMP 60 renishaw and batteries holds like one year. But iam working like 10 hour day maximum . Anyway change is pretty simple it tooks like one minute and its using common AA batteries. Activated by Mcode . Using radio eye built in machine. Yes and its know when battery running low probe signal you with colour blinking.
duh
You can't set the probe height with the laser tool setter?
a little tiny travel(millionth) is needed to trigger the signle, in all direction. And the tool setter is less accurate in terms of repeatbility compare to the probe.
If that probe is essential you might want a spare one of those, too.
13:22 you should probably do that every time you measure a new tool. I do this because our machine moves a little bit after some time and then the tool may be measured +-0.01 in length and diameter
on our kern, we have to run the programm twice empty, so the temperature is on working load before we probing. This minimizes deviation over time.
Can you make custom end effectors for the robot, and custom shelving for the enclosure, for custom parts? Like do they sell blanks with the pin that interfaces with the arm, so you can make custom end effectors that bolt onto it?
Compared to downtime it doesm[t make much difference what the probe costs. I wonder how thick the in from his fingers was snd how much swarf the magnets gathered up. It's been 35 years, but I don't need to look at a video to center something with 4 screws.
It is the worst when that happens. On my CMM, I broke my main probe twice. I was glad to have back ups. I keep about 5 in stock and more of the large one as it is shared with a few cncs on the shop floor
@Wesley Blokker it was not in the same point but on two programs. Plus it was cerameric probes. It was on each machine. We have two where I work.
Such a bummer when you break those tips! A great tip I learned is to put allen keys in the opposing set screws to aid in dialing the tip in. Makes those adjustments much easier. Not that I have had to do it a half dozen times in my career...hahahahaha! Everything is rainbows, right?
if you are in manual mode you can just hit the axis key Z at the numpad and set your coordinate its less fiddling with menus
Quick little video.. look at the time, 30min 😂 thanks for sharing! Got a probe coming with my 1100mx haven't used one yet I've only used an edge finder and haimer so far I'm excited to learn probing routine
Probing in Path Pilot is super easy! They make it a breeze
@@alexanderhuff8758 Awesome! Looking forward to it! been using a haimer on my 770m and it's nice but really looking forward to using the probe. planning on getting David Loomes wireless conversion kit so I can put it in the toolchanger.
John love the videos, I’m curious to know why you’re using imperial measurements and not metric being based in Canada. Not saying one is better than the other. I’m just curious as in the Uk everything is metric.
One is better than the other its imperial 😆
Because of our proximity to the USA, we learn to think in inches and thousandths.
All the materials are in standard inch sizes
Measuring tools like tape measures are either inch, or combo metric inch, no metric only.
Fractional, Number and Letter drills are in the hardware store, metric is special order at an industrial dealer
Inch NC Hex head cap screws with NC thread is available in bulk by the pound or the pail at the farm store, metric are in the drawer-individually wrapped- $10 each
Grocery store advertising flyers are listed in $ / pound because $ / KG is twice as much and they all want to seem competitive
Our road sign speeds are in KM/H
Our gas is sold by the litre
Our milk is sold by the litre
Weather temperatures are in *C
Heat treatment temperatures are in *F
That's just the beginning
@@12345NoNamesLeft What a mess! lol
What kind of preparations do you have to take when installing a machine/tools that has to be precisely flat/level?
Is this one of those tools?
Thanks.
Don't you have to set your probe diameter with a ring gage that what I've always done when setting a new probe tip
Sphere is used in 5 axis applications for accuracy.
I run a lot of 6mm probes on 6-8" length styli and I often see 0.02-0.06" errors in the diameter measurement, just from the deflection in the shaft.
Unlikely with this precise a machine but just a thought, is there a way to double check that on the ball it was actually measuring at the outer most point? It kind of looked like it was just tapping to find the biggest diameter and maybe it skipped over it a few thousandths causing the difference? Whereas the ring gage is the same all of the way around where that variable doesn't even exist.
Centering that probe is same as centering a haimmer 3d , anyway I have like 4 ways to pick a part offset on the machine I work with
Hi John. Top end CMM machines still measure a 1mm probe slightly smaller and actually the guidance is to set the effective probe diameter to 0.997mm. This is due to the trigger force needed and the amount of deflection. Just a side note have you measured the actual probe in the machine it common to find probes mixed up and a 0.7mm is a common diameter also.
Love the problem solved videos keep them up
Surprised the precision switch didn’t get damaged after breaking the tip. Remember those bring very expensive.
sounds like there's a small dead zone in the travel of the probe before it registers deflection. the radius of that dead zone would be subtracted from the radius of the ball, which would explain the difference between the measured diameter and the diameter from the calibration. as long as that value stays consistent, it's fine. but best to check the documentation; if that's there by design (or is considered an allowable variation) then you can probably be pretty sure that dead zone radius will stay consistent. but if that's not supposed to be there then it's probably damage from your probe crash, in which case relying on it would be a risky proposition.
It reads the tip size radius wrong becouse you have have a longer probe tip. It is simple geometrics. When u set your z heigt of the tool ist just the total length wich is changed, not related to length betwen tip and pivot point inside the tool.
Have Done the same
Why couldn't you use an indicator?
What happens if the ring gauge sits crocked due to magnetic dust under magnets? The probe calibration thinks its oval?
Why can't the program auto center the probe using the setup stop on the table mast?
Someone I know does the kinematics twice a day. Once in morning and at the start of night shift
Why can't the laser calibrate probe length and diameter? If you have a calibration tool for the laser shouldn't that work?
The diameter doesn't really matter all that much since the probe works off trigger values (the tip can be spot on "3,00 mm", whereas the actual trigger when in cycles are something like "2,87 mm" (or half that value - depending on what type of machine is used..)
It's actually similar with the length, as in some cases you don't actually want the total length (it can interfere with the trigger-value because it doesn't travel far enough).
Instead it can be center point of the tip (so half of the tip diameter - total length = tool length).
Sure, it can differ from machine to machine and company to company.
But that's at least how I've learnt setting up new probes.
try to put a go pro onto that pallet changer i've seen some people do that
I remember seeing a video of a guy that bought a bunch of precision little ruby balls and machine himself the little arm that holds them
He was gluing them using epoxy.
He was saying that even if the ball is not perfectly center or not at the perfect length does not matter as you need to center is anyway with your 4 screw adjustment.
Can't find the video anymore.
Sorry, I will keep searching
honest question, if you did not had to film all this (Wich slows you down considerably) how long would it take (aka: how much would it cost you) to get back operational and it being trustworthy?
Usually one calibrates a probe in a ring gage, easy and fast. The data table (results)will always show the probe stylus ball a little smaller, never exactly the physical size. What it shows and uses in the cycles is the "deflected" switching point of the probe with that particular dia. of ruby ball. But smaller the difference the better, the machine so to speak. And hence the need to calibrate once in a while. Good showcase of a Blum probe.👍👍
What is your estimated down time to complete these processes if you have to replace the probe again, assuming you’ve now figured out the required steps and procedures? Very interesting video. 👍🏼👍🏼
Why cant you measure the length with the laser and then take away as much as the probe needs to register the touch?
I was just about to ask, why not probe the probe stylus with the laser toolsetter and add in the Z deflection manually?
Are these cheap generic ruby probe tips? The price is suspiciously low.
Given that it is a ruby, and a very high precision part I thought they would have been a lot more than $38.
at least you only broke the stylus, not the probe itself :D
Get those specialty batteries as well same deal
Tighten the high spots loosen the lows
Lovely
Now go write an SOP for this process. If you're out of action, feels like nobody else can do this beside you.
Oh wait, this whole video is and SOP 😂😂
Tormach is $115 how can yours be so cheap?
next video spoilers:
use epic narrator voice
john grimsmo made a 2 day run and had to scrap everything because the probe was set up wrong
Try using the fixture face to set Z for the probe. The face that your pallets mount to. This face should not change ever.
*finishes the vid* Oh.... belay my last.
No axis A eh?
B - rotation around y axis and C around Z
I work at renishaw xD
The rubies do actually wear out
Mh... you are touching the calibration ball on only 4 points. Maybe that is where the wrong diameter comes from. More points = more accurate measurement. I would go for at least 16 to be sure.
prob break, ShXX happen, all way safe to have spare prob at the shop
John, not trying to sound rude but is your time not more valuable? Could you not hire someone who can do this or upskill a current employee? You seem to be clinging on to the higher level tasks which you seem to enjoy but might not be the most efficient use of time. It is painful to watch you spend hours doing tasks someone else might be able to do in 10 minutes. I would seriously consider a member of the team who is able to help you with calibration, programming, cycle time reduction, choosing new tools and tool paths
But that person might not be a good presenter. So we got to thanks John for his perseverance over the past few years.
*Question: I just got my first Norseman a few weeks ago #5085. Why does my blade not have a detent ramp?
It seems like contacting them directly, instead of publicly, is more appropriate
@@frp1276 I don’t think it was an oversight that slipped through qc. I’ve looked through the archives and it seems to be something they’ve taken out of the design. I was just looking to see if someone had any information on this.
@@michaelgemmer2806 I see. Still, try giving them a call?
Wow amazing ,
I really enjoyed that
Four is two?
get calibration ring and calibrate probe with it . much easier and faster
why im commenting before finishing video
:D
Hi John,
For someone who tries to do things better than the other guy I'm surprised.
a) Why aren't all your tools/probes the same between machines? This way you only need to keep a few spares of the same tool on-site.
b) To calibrate the tool probe, by cutting using a un-used endmill? I'm really confused there is too many varibles off-sets/defelctions/. Why not just use a gauge block?! or heck the built in tool probe?
It really sounds like you need to sit down, and look at all the tools you use and condense them. All your endmills should be the same, probes etc. This way if something does brake you have spares or you can get it from another machine.
I used to like the old videos, shorter, and more useful information.
Now it seems like the videos you put out are you making excuses for why it's taking so long to produce $300 pens, and $1000 knives.
This low-brow clickbait title HALTED all respect for your channel...
It doesn't wear out it just breaks. Why does it break? uhmmm... because it wore out.