Coercion was the original duress - it was played in a ton of decks after Mirage came out. Also Vampiric Tutor was virtually unplayed in standard outside of the ProsBloom deck in 97. In the Revised era my friends and I always Demonic Tutored for Mind Twist or Brainstorm. Also, Demonic Consultation was an amazing tutor and I’m really glad they mentioned it. Their comments on these lists are always fascinating to me.
The confidant being 1 mana cheaper is a huge deal, plus you don't have the double black mana problem. Also you can eventually kill your own confidant if it starts to be a serious problem by chump-blocking for example, and of course it's also possible to attack with it. Maybe in a slow control deck with high ccs the arena could be preferred.
@Snitzky666 1. Necropotence comes down 3 turns earlier. Three mana is a HUGE difference in any relevant format. Bargain is 3 turns slower, which is a joke in Vintage. 2. Exiling cards when you discard isn't relevant when you win the game before your cleanup step. 3. Necropotence was printed in 2 different sets and printed as a foil in 2 special edition sets. Yawgmoth's Bargain was printed in only one set, and it was only the second set that featured foils.
@chaosof99 Rancor. For white though, maybe Wrath of God, Balance, Empyrial Armor, Swords to Plowshares, Baneslayer Angel, Moat, Land Tax, Exalted Angel, Abeyance, Figure of Destiny, Astral Slide to name some. Both green and white have really nice cards but the power level of the blue and black cards and their interactions with the decks they go in is just absurd.
@chaosof99 Eh..even white has a few good ones like Land Tax, swords/path, oblivion ring, wrath, elspeth knight-errant, squadron hawks has proven to be of some use...though that's just naming a few good white which I'm sure can exist but who knows
I know it's not a "real" card, but I would have like to hear a mention of Contract from Below. That card seems sick. Also, I feel like Yawgmoth's Will is better than Necro, but I guess I never played Necro when it was all that degenerate.
I would have loved to see Cabal Therapy make the top 8... Excellent hand disruption in it's day... along side Duress at a point... with Flashback... definately an honorable mention at least.
It's not about being proactive early. And here is my sticking point, it's about doing something that will win you the game. If all you do is stall the board, you aren't gaining advantage over time. You are just stalling the game. You need a reliable win condition to win with a control deck. I.E. Entreat the Angels, or Jace 2.0's ultimate, or even Devil's Play.
I'm really surprised Yawgmoth's WIll wasn't number 1. No doubt Necropotence is really strong, and it's much better in more fair decks (which is why it dominated when it was first printed and Yawgmoth's Will didn't), but the power of Yawgmoth's Will with mana generation spells is just absurd. Like LSV said, a player who resolves Yawgmoth's Will has to win at least 90% of their games and that's no exaggeration. Necropotence, while a better early play, is much less likely to win you the game when you're under pressure and you top deck it, whereas Yawgmoth's Will combined with any mana generation spells, tutors, Ancestral Recall, whatever really, is nearly guaranteed a win, even if you're at 2 life and 0 cards in hand. I doubt any card in Vintage has won even 1/3 as many 'comeback victories' as Yawgmoth's Will, and I don't think there's any target that sees heavy play in Vintage that's more worthy of a Force of Will than Yawgmoth's Will. Not that Necropotence would escape a Force of Will, either.
JNGL Grindzz I won't call you an idiot, don't worry. When my brother and I first started magic it looked useless and confusing to us, but we were really surprised to read about it being one of the best cards ever. Necropotence is great because, although you skip your draw step, you can use its ability any number of times in a given turn. This effectively allows you to draw any number of cards at the end of turn at the cost of 1 life each (a very cheap price for an otherwise free card), although you can only keep up to 7 cards because of the discard at the end of turn. When Necropotence was first printed, it was used in "fair" Black decks to effectively draw 7 cards every turn for the rest of the game, while using Drain Life to get life back (for more cards, of course) and kill the opponent. Even back then, you could Dark Ritual --> Necropotence on turn 1. This infamous time period was known as "Black Summer" due to the dominance of Necropotence decks following its release. Later on, around the time of Urza Block, people started learning that Necropotence was an incredibly powerful card to fuel combo decks by simply drawing a massive number of cards and using those cards to execute a combo that immediately kills the opponent (instead of drowning them in card advantage, as how the deck tended to win previously). This effectively took away the "weakness" of Necropotence decks that some earlier decks preyed upon; that is, Necropotence decks of old hurt themselves a lot and didn't win the game insanely quickly, so they could be susceptible to very fast aggression (Sligh decks arose around the time of Black Summer because they could reliably beat Necropotence decks). These new combo Necropotence decks were so fast that aggro decks didn't stand a chance. Necropotence was banned shortly after, never to be seen again in anything other than Vintage.
DeaTh-ShiNoBi necropotence is a one-card combo. Yag's will demands a very specific deck that can be very easily interrupted, specially cuse rely on graveyard. Even if you resolve the will, there is no guarantee that you are gonna win, but necropotence is a must-answer-or-die, specially with tutors to solve any bad luck you might have in the drawing.
Julio Francisco Gómez Stoppello It is not correct to say that Yawgmoth's Will relies on a very specific deck, nor is it correct to say that it is easily interrupted. What it relies on is powerful cards unique to the only format that it's legal in, Vintage. Past that, what you're REALLY thinking of, I'm sure, is a storm combo deck. True, Yawgmoth's Will is the centerpiece of that deck, but it's also used in a great many decks for pure value. Declaring that Necropotence is "must-answer-or-die" is not something I would argue against, but Yawgmoth's Will takes "must-answer-or-die" to a whole new level, and it is absolutely not correct to belittle that aspect of Yawgmoth's Will. Often called "Yawgmoth's Win," it has a well deserved reputation of winning a game on the spot upon resolution, and not necessarily due to a 1-shot combo, but simply because the value generated from a single resolution of Yawgmoth's Will is usually enough to put the user into an insurmountable advantage. I stress that Yawgmoth's Will is NOT just a one dimensional game ender because there are an incredible amount of cheap cards with powerful effects and mana generation spells in Vintage. As a bonus, fetch lands ensure that you usually get a free land out of the deal. I've seen plenty of games where someone has 2 life, 0 cards in hand, and 3 land on board, facing lethal damage on the next turn, they top deck a Yawgmoth's Will, and easily win the game. As powerful as Necropotence is, it cannot resuscitate you from sure death as easily as Yawgmoth's Will can. Like I said in an earlier post, there's no card in Vintage that has a reputation for 'comeback victories' as much as Yawgmoth's Will. As for why I said that Yawgmoth's Will is not easily disrupted, it's because it's such a low investment card. Aside from decks that are utterly reliant on Yawgmoth's Will to end the game, bringing in graveyard hate to deal with YWill alone is usually not too effective. Even if you manage to successfully shut it down, you're shutting down ONE card in their deck (restricted even, i.e. they have only one copy), and you had to put in quite the investment to do that (did you sideboard in 4 Grafdigger's Cages?). Are you really ahead at that point, by shutting it down? They might not even draw it, and they can simply tutor for other stuff. As long as their deck has other ways to win, which is very common in Vintage, you might get hurt more than they do by trying to hate out Yawgmoth's Will.
DeaTh-ShiNoBi with no cards in hand and no cards in the graveyard, Yag's will does nothing. In the same conditions, necropotence wins the game right on the spot. Two COMPLETLY different levels of power.
1) Demonic tutor 2) Necropotence 3) Yawgmoth's will 4) Dark ritual 5) Demonic consultation 6) Vampiric tutor 7) Dark confidant 8) Tendrils of agony - enabled combo decks in a way never seen before. Honorable mentions: Duress, thoughtseize, hymn to tourach, reanimate, griselbrand, cabal therapy, bitter blossom, imperial seal. and of course....the best card ever printed: Contract from below! But it is not legal anywhere.
About paying life, think of it this way. There is no play difference between 1 or 100 life. Either way, you are not dead, and if you have control over the game, you can win. I'm not saying this applies only to control decks, either. For example, if 2 mono white aggro decks are facing each other, and one of them is at one life, but with 6 creatures on the board and 5 cards in hand, and the other is at 30 but with no creatures or cards in hand, who will win?
@chaosof99 exalted angel, decree of justice, swords to plowshare, lin sivvi, wrath of god, balance, just off the top of my head. but ya i think they are saying the top green and white cards are much much weaker than the top blue and black cards
@chaosof99 I agree green has great cards but white has path, swords, land tax, elspeth, balance, stoneforge mystic, wrath of god, enlightened tutor, gideon, baneslayer angel....its the weakest but its still got enough for a top 8. Honestly, red might be the worst. All of its best cards are all burn and goblins lol. I dont really think it matters, all the colors still have a top 8 best cards regardless of whether they are as powerful as the other colors
Julio Francisco Gómez Stoppello I think it's a joke mate, I've noticed a lot of people suggest Nighthawk for a lot of different list's it just shouldn't be near of.
@elendarulianreo Sorrow's Path. A land that doesn't produce mana and only has a minor and quite rarely useful effect while punishing you and conceivably killing a lot of your creatures in order to use it.
Life can be used as a resource, but, is used most commonly as a win condition, not only that, it's the most common win condition. By paying life you bring your opponent closer to victory, period. Sure, if you have 5 counterspells and an island in hand, you have control over the game, but, you don't have a way to end it. The person jamming threats every turn has an advantage because, he is the one doing things that are proactive to end the game in his favor instead of forcing board stalls.
Here's my point. Control over the game's flow matters more than life. If you are tapped out against 4 Bolts at 1 life you are going to lose because you have no control over the game, not inherently because your life is low. Life is a resource, not a measure "who's winning". Your statement about late game life payments could be applied to many other resources is magic, such as not being able to dredge when your library is low, or discard cards to zombie infestation when you have 1 card in hand.
jandalthief Yes if they did the list now, it would probably be towards the bottom or at least honorable mention. Her and Grislebrand would probably see an addition to the list. Prolly knock off Dark Confidant and Duress since Legacy and Vintage got a little more creature based thanks to Delver, Mentor and Pyromancer plus Confidant just sees less play across all formats it's legal in.
@chaosof99 ahhh yeah... berserk. I want to splash green in my affinity deck for that. Cranial or Master of etherium berserked? fuck, finally got a 20+ power guy that has trample. Most of the time, i can get 18/1 but no trample = shit.
The first time I used Necro I actually played it in my artifact deck and when I cheated my Platinum Angel into play I realized I could Necro my entire library........I won the next turn
Yes, so? That doesn't really help your argument, as it contradicts what you said earlier: "Ideally you would have attacking creatures in a good game of Magic: The Gathering. Also, using life as a resource, even under black isn't good (with notable exceptions)." The whole point of Magic is to win the game in some way, shape or form, and stalling until you have resources and the opponent does not is a way to win. I never said you have no way to win, it just doesn't have to be a creature rush.
There are certainly a plethora of ridiculous white cards. Mother of runes, enlightened tutor, austere command, reviellark, orim's chant, angels grace, land tax, academy rector, wrath of god, replenish, moat, armageddon, mageta the lion, swords to plowshares and finally balance. How is there not a top 8 white cars of all time in that list of awesome?
@jairomy Wood Elemental is way worse than Sorrow's Path. Sorrow's Path at least has a very miniscule potential benefit, and at worst costs no mana to play. Just to get a Hill Giant out of Wood elemental, you need to effectively spend 7 mana and 3-for-0 yourself.
The objective of the game is to reduce your opponent's life total to 0. Not to draw out the game. So yes, ideally you would have attacking creatures in a good game of Magic: The Gathering. Also, using life as a resource, even under black isn't good (with notable exceptions). Reducing your own life total brings your opponent closer to lowing YOUR life to 0. And btw, Overwhelming Forces is a $140 card; it's worth more then 2 Jace, The Mind Sculptors.
No he is not, and this is my point. One does not have to be proactive early to win. The nature of control decks is that they use their life as a resource and are eventually going to win by some method that it hard to stop and easy to use, like Nephalia Drownyard or Jace, Architect of Thought, or an enormous, efficient threat, such as Baneslayer Angel. Generating these so-called "board stalls" is really just used to get the pressure of threats of your back to achieve an advantage over time.
That is a very powerful play, but for early massive hand disruption, I've gotta admit i prefer land, dark ritual, entomb jin-gitaxias core augur, exhume jin gitaxias, pass turn, ideally with force of will or daze backup. Then you're back up to a full hand. They start the game in topdeck mode. They never even get going before you utterly obliterate them with massive card advantage. Its even nastier if your turn 2 land drop is wasteland.
Coercion was the original duress - it was played in a ton of decks after Mirage came out. Also Vampiric Tutor was virtually unplayed in standard outside of the ProsBloom deck in 97. In the Revised era my friends and I always Demonic Tutored for Mind Twist or Brainstorm. Also, Demonic Consultation was an amazing tutor and I’m really glad they mentioned it. Their comments on these lists are always fascinating to me.
Good top 8! I'd actually be stoked for TSG to talk more about his cube, channel fireball should get some cube content going!
no bitterblossom? best card in standard for a while...was pretty good in extended...
Rick Ross unknowingly (and perfectly) described Necropotence when he spat: "My Rolls Royce triple-black."
I'm 1 second in and my guess is Yawgmoth's Will. If not that, then Necropotence for sure.
Ritual, entomb, exhume...always been my fav first turn combo...
It took me so long to figure out why liliana of the veil wasn't on the list.
Beckett Cary-Green Vintage?
47Mortuus She wasn't printed at the time this video was made. Video is April 2011...Innistrad came out in Sept 2011.
Which color has the most banned and restricted cards by color? I am assuming it is blue or black
What about contract from below?
The confidant being 1 mana cheaper is a huge deal, plus you don't have the double black mana problem. Also you can eventually kill your own confidant if it starts to be a serious problem by chump-blocking for example, and of course it's also possible to attack with it. Maybe in a slow control deck with high ccs the arena could be preferred.
What card is Humphrey holding??
@NeuclearRabbit a 2 drop that gives u massive card advantage vs a big cheap creature?
White has angels and the best removal spells of all time? (wrath of god and swords to plowshares?)
Shows you how times have changed. Duress wouldn't even crack the top 30 for black right now....
No bitterblossom?
@Snitzky666 1. Necropotence comes down 3 turns earlier. Three mana is a HUGE difference in any relevant format. Bargain is 3 turns slower, which is a joke in Vintage.
2. Exiling cards when you discard isn't relevant when you win the game before your cleanup step.
3. Necropotence was printed in 2 different sets and printed as a foil in 2 special edition sets. Yawgmoth's Bargain was printed in only one set, and it was only the second set that featured foils.
There comes a time in every players life when you just have to go Black.
+Jessica Zane And once you go black..
Jokke Martens ...you need a wheelchair.
How did reanimate not make the list?
Contract from Below? Best magic card ever?
I'd like to hear more about the incident(s?) that inspired the Raging Cougar joke.
@chaosof99
Don't forget elves in general and regal force. I'm sure LSV can educate us all about them.
What's the card on the tree?
Oh
@chaosof99
Rancor. For white though, maybe Wrath of God, Balance, Empyrial Armor, Swords to Plowshares, Baneslayer Angel, Moat, Land Tax, Exalted Angel, Abeyance, Figure of Destiny, Astral Slide to name some.
Both green and white have really nice cards but the power level of the blue and black cards and their interactions with the decks they go in is just absurd.
@elendarulianreo You have never heard of Sorrow`s Path have you????
@chaosof99 Not necessarily. It's just that this fact is the reason why pros eschew green and play colors with more powerful cards.
@chaosof99 Eh..even white has a few good ones like Land Tax, swords/path, oblivion ring, wrath, elspeth knight-errant, squadron hawks has proven to be of some use...though that's just naming a few good white which I'm sure can exist but who knows
@NeuclearRabbit Goyf doesn't draw cards, and if you want to get into more techy stuff, Dark Confidant can hand you more cards to use and fuel Goyf.
Why do people pick dark confidant over phyrexian arena? is it because of mana cost? is it because it's a creature? why?
I know it's not a "real" card, but I would have like to hear a mention of Contract from Below. That card seems sick. Also, I feel like Yawgmoth's Will is better than Necro, but I guess I never played Necro when it was all that degenerate.
Would've liked to see something higher than an uncommon 3-drop
@ElgartheWise Actually it popped into my head right after i posted, but was too lazy to edit.
im surprised oath of druids isnt in that guys green list
I would have loved to see Cabal Therapy make the top 8... Excellent hand disruption in it's day... along side Duress at a point... with Flashback... definately an honorable mention at least.
It's not about being proactive early. And here is my sticking point, it's about doing something that will win you the game. If all you do is stall the board, you aren't gaining advantage over time. You are just stalling the game. You need a reliable win condition to win with a control deck. I.E. Entreat the Angels, or Jace 2.0's ultimate, or even Devil's Play.
Phyrexian Obliterator?
the first thing I ever did in magic (besides playing lands) is demonic tutor for drudge skeletons
I'm really surprised Yawgmoth's WIll wasn't number 1. No doubt Necropotence is really strong, and it's much better in more fair decks (which is why it dominated when it was first printed and Yawgmoth's Will didn't), but the power of Yawgmoth's Will with mana generation spells is just absurd. Like LSV said, a player who resolves Yawgmoth's Will has to win at least 90% of their games and that's no exaggeration. Necropotence, while a better early play, is much less likely to win you the game when you're under pressure and you top deck it, whereas Yawgmoth's Will combined with any mana generation spells, tutors, Ancestral Recall, whatever really, is nearly guaranteed a win, even if you're at 2 life and 0 cards in hand. I doubt any card in Vintage has won even 1/3 as many 'comeback victories' as Yawgmoth's Will, and I don't think there's any target that sees heavy play in Vintage that's more worthy of a Force of Will than Yawgmoth's Will. Not that Necropotence would escape a Force of Will, either.
DeaTh-ShiNoBi Don't call me an idiot but please explain why necropotence is so good?
JNGL Grindzz I won't call you an idiot, don't worry. When my brother and I first started magic it looked useless and confusing to us, but we were really surprised to read about it being one of the best cards ever. Necropotence is great because, although you skip your draw step, you can use its ability any number of times in a given turn. This effectively allows you to draw any number of cards at the end of turn at the cost of 1 life each (a very cheap price for an otherwise free card), although you can only keep up to 7 cards because of the discard at the end of turn.
When Necropotence was first printed, it was used in "fair" Black decks to effectively draw 7 cards every turn for the rest of the game, while using Drain Life to get life back (for more cards, of course) and kill the opponent. Even back then, you could Dark Ritual --> Necropotence on turn 1. This infamous time period was known as "Black Summer" due to the dominance of Necropotence decks following its release.
Later on, around the time of Urza Block, people started learning that Necropotence was an incredibly powerful card to fuel combo decks by simply drawing a massive number of cards and using those cards to execute a combo that immediately kills the opponent (instead of drowning them in card advantage, as how the deck tended to win previously). This effectively took away the "weakness" of Necropotence decks that some earlier decks preyed upon; that is, Necropotence decks of old hurt themselves a lot and didn't win the game insanely quickly, so they could be susceptible to very fast aggression (Sligh decks arose around the time of Black Summer because they could reliably beat Necropotence decks). These new combo Necropotence decks were so fast that aggro decks didn't stand a chance. Necropotence was banned shortly after, never to be seen again in anything other than Vintage.
DeaTh-ShiNoBi necropotence is a one-card combo. Yag's will demands a very specific deck that can be very easily interrupted, specially cuse rely on graveyard. Even if you resolve the will, there is no guarantee that you are gonna win, but necropotence is a must-answer-or-die, specially with tutors to solve any bad luck you might have in the drawing.
Julio Francisco Gómez Stoppello It is not correct to say that Yawgmoth's Will relies on a very specific deck, nor is it correct to say that it is easily interrupted. What it relies on is powerful cards unique to the only format that it's legal in, Vintage. Past that, what you're REALLY thinking of, I'm sure, is a storm combo deck. True, Yawgmoth's Will is the centerpiece of that deck, but it's also used in a great many decks for pure value.
Declaring that Necropotence is "must-answer-or-die" is not something I would argue against, but Yawgmoth's Will takes "must-answer-or-die" to a whole new level, and it is absolutely not correct to belittle that aspect of Yawgmoth's Will. Often called "Yawgmoth's Win," it has a well deserved reputation of winning a game on the spot upon resolution, and not necessarily due to a 1-shot combo, but simply because the value generated from a single resolution of Yawgmoth's Will is usually enough to put the user into an insurmountable advantage.
I stress that Yawgmoth's Will is NOT just a one dimensional game ender because there are an incredible amount of cheap cards with powerful effects and mana generation spells in Vintage. As a bonus, fetch lands ensure that you usually get a free land out of the deal. I've seen plenty of games where someone has 2 life, 0 cards in hand, and 3 land on board, facing lethal damage on the next turn, they top deck a Yawgmoth's Will, and easily win the game. As powerful as Necropotence is, it cannot resuscitate you from sure death as easily as Yawgmoth's Will can. Like I said in an earlier post, there's no card in Vintage that has a reputation for 'comeback victories' as much as Yawgmoth's Will.
As for why I said that Yawgmoth's Will is not easily disrupted, it's because it's such a low investment card. Aside from decks that are utterly reliant on Yawgmoth's Will to end the game, bringing in graveyard hate to deal with YWill alone is usually not too effective. Even if you manage to successfully shut it down, you're shutting down ONE card in their deck (restricted even, i.e. they have only one copy), and you had to put in quite the investment to do that (did you sideboard in 4 Grafdigger's Cages?). Are you really ahead at that point, by shutting it down? They might not even draw it, and they can simply tutor for other stuff. As long as their deck has other ways to win, which is very common in Vintage, you might get hurt more than they do by trying to hate out Yawgmoth's Will.
DeaTh-ShiNoBi with no cards in hand and no cards in the graveyard, Yag's will does nothing.
In the same conditions, necropotence wins the game right on the spot. Two COMPLETLY different levels of power.
1) Demonic tutor
2) Necropotence
3) Yawgmoth's will
4) Dark ritual
5) Demonic consultation
6) Vampiric tutor
7) Dark confidant
8) Tendrils of agony - enabled combo decks in a way never seen before.
Honorable mentions: Duress, thoughtseize, hymn to tourach, reanimate, griselbrand, cabal therapy, bitter blossom, imperial seal.
and of course....the best card ever printed: Contract from below! But it is not legal anywhere.
Everybody forgot mind twist
It isn't really that great these days. Did not forget it, just don't think it deserves a spot unless its a historical list.
About paying life, think of it this way. There is no play difference between 1 or 100 life. Either way, you are not dead, and if you have control over the game, you can win. I'm not saying this applies only to control decks, either. For example, if 2 mono white aggro decks are facing each other, and one of them is at one life, but with 6 creatures on the board and 5 cards in hand, and the other is at 30 but with no creatures or cards in hand, who will win?
How isn't Hymn to Tourach and Mind Twist on the list???
I would love to see some drunk LSV drafts or something similar
Bitterblossom?
@chaosof99 exalted angel, decree of justice, swords to plowshare, lin sivvi, wrath of god, balance, just off the top of my head.
but ya i think they are saying the top green and white cards are much much weaker than the top blue and black cards
legendary cards
I think the top 8 hybrid allied (GW, WU, UB, BR, RG), hybrid enemy (RW, WB, BG, GU, UR) would be cool, either that or best gold for 2, 3, 4, 5 colors
Has Luis ever cast Gruesome Encore?
@chaosof99 I agree green has great cards but white has path, swords, land tax, elspeth, balance, stoneforge mystic, wrath of god, enlightened tutor, gideon, baneslayer angel....its the weakest but its still got enough for a top 8. Honestly, red might be the worst. All of its best cards are all burn and goblins lol. I dont really think it matters, all the colors still have a top 8 best cards regardless of whether they are as powerful as the other colors
Vampire nighthawk?
Samuel Henson probably like top 140.
Julio Francisco Gómez Stoppello I think it's a joke mate, I've noticed a lot of people suggest Nighthawk for a lot of different list's it just shouldn't be near of.
Mos Maskinen Yeah, because it's insane in DotPW games. This guys is probably one of these nubs.
47Mortuus I'm sorry, but I'm not familier with the term DotPW.
Duels of the Planeswalkers, the kids' introduction to MTG via PlayStation, XBOX and Smartphones.
@topituulensuu Arcum's Sleigh is a good contender, but it's just a little bit better because of Shrapnel Blast :)
@elendarulianreo Sorrow's Path. A land that doesn't produce mana and only has a minor and quite rarely useful effect while punishing you and conceivably killing a lot of your creatures in order to use it.
LSV is a fucking boss, I would love to go for a pint with him and just nerd out over magic
So now in 2024 #5 has been powercrept out of Modern and #1 has been reprinted in Modern.
Shame dismember is in the same standard cycle... :p its really only good in the zombie decks now cuz it fits nicely in the 4 curve
top 8 most disruptive cards (i.e. advantage gaining cards)
e.g. man o' war; hypnotic spectre; counterspell etc.
Update: Griselbrand, Hymn, Ritual, Thoughtseize, Bitterblossom, Tutors, LoTV, Bob, Necro, Yawgwill.
7:25 Did he say "You just Jewed three or four cards"?
Yawgmoth's Bargain?
Life can be used as a resource, but, is used most commonly as a win condition, not only that, it's the most common win condition. By paying life you bring your opponent closer to victory, period. Sure, if you have 5 counterspells and an island in hand, you have control over the game, but, you don't have a way to end it. The person jamming threats every turn has an advantage because, he is the one doing things that are proactive to end the game in his favor instead of forcing board stalls.
number 8 reminds me of all the avacyn restored cards in my deck ...
huh...
@elendarulianreo you're wrong. the worst card ever printed was chimney imp.
LSV:Black has always been Blue's Partner in crime! HAHAHAHA!
ME:*FACEPALM*
Top 8 artifacts would be sweet
Here's my point. Control over the game's flow matters more than life. If you are tapped out against 4 Bolts at 1 life you are going to lose because you have no control over the game, not inherently because your life is low. Life is a resource, not a measure "who's winning". Your statement about late game life payments could be applied to many other resources is magic, such as not being able to dredge when your library is low, or discard cards to zombie infestation when you have 1 card in hand.
@yahoonoahgmail really? ur gonna main deck cabal therapy over duress or thoughtseize? bad deck building if u do
No hymn? :o
Best walls plz
When Consecrated Sphinx was 2 dollars xD
Necro should be a power card, it's better than time twister easily
I didn't see the Gruesome Encore coming. I feel so stupid.
Liliana of the Veil would make this list, yes?
jandalthief no... maybe in the top 8 planeswalkers
jandalthief well... hmm... probably on the list now that i think about it
jandalthief Yes if they did the list now, it would probably be towards the bottom or at least honorable mention. Her and Grislebrand would probably see an addition to the list. Prolly knock off Dark Confidant and Duress since Legacy and Vintage got a little more creature based thanks to Delver, Mentor and Pyromancer plus Confidant just sees less play across all formats it's legal in.
@chaosof99 ahhh yeah... berserk. I want to splash green in my affinity deck for that. Cranial or Master of etherium berserked? fuck, finally got a 20+ power guy that has trample. Most of the time, i can get 18/1 but no trample = shit.
This list needs more chimney imp.
You missed Contract from Below! draw 7 for one black!
I think Unmask deserves honorable mention
top 8 RED next!
plains walkers are cool i just order some onlin. because they are so good i played agist them and they are hardcore.
you wore a BLACKhawks jersey for black cards... I BOW TO YOU TRISTAN
I'd switch around 1 and 2, honestly
@BrandonCerelius Its my favorite card even banned and a ante card lol my favorite art and card!
The first time I used Necro I actually played it in my artifact deck and when I cheated my Platinum Angel into play I realized I could Necro my entire library........I won the next turn
top 8 gold
best multicoloured cards?
Mind Twist????!?!?
Yes, so? That doesn't really help your argument, as it contradicts what you said earlier:
"Ideally you would have attacking creatures in a good game of Magic: The Gathering. Also, using life as a resource, even under black isn't good (with notable exceptions)."
The whole point of Magic is to win the game in some way, shape or form, and stalling until you have resources and the opponent does not is a way to win. I never said you have no way to win, it just doesn't have to be a creature rush.
@BigNacho Right, because cards that aren't as good as the best cards ever printed simply aren't good at all...
do best naya coloured cards
There are certainly a plethora of ridiculous white cards. Mother of runes, enlightened tutor, austere command, reviellark, orim's chant, angels grace, land tax, academy rector, wrath of god, replenish, moat, armageddon, mageta the lion, swords to plowshares and finally balance. How is there not a top 8 white cars of all time in that list of awesome?
I'm kinda surprised Reanimate didn't even get an honorable mention. Cheating on mana like nobody's business.
@jairomy Wood Elemental is way worse than Sorrow's Path. Sorrow's Path at least has a very miniscule potential benefit, and at worst costs no mana to play. Just to get a Hill Giant out of Wood elemental, you need to effectively spend 7 mana and 3-for-0 yourself.
I want 9-16 Blue cards!
with inistrad, top 8 humans would be kinda cool
Best multicolor cards
The objective of the game is to reduce your opponent's life total to 0. Not to draw out the game. So yes, ideally you would have attacking creatures in a good game of Magic: The Gathering. Also, using life as a resource, even under black isn't good (with notable exceptions). Reducing your own life total brings your opponent closer to lowing YOUR life to 0. And btw, Overwhelming Forces is a $140 card; it's worth more then 2 Jace, The Mind Sculptors.
i see humphrey traded his 4 plunge into darkness for a raging cougar
where's your canuck jersey. jeez
contract from below :)
Colorless FTW!!
No he is not, and this is my point. One does not have to be proactive early to win. The nature of control decks is that they use their life as a resource and are eventually going to win by some method that it hard to stop and easy to use, like Nephalia Drownyard or Jace, Architect of Thought, or an enormous, efficient threat, such as Baneslayer Angel. Generating these so-called "board stalls" is really just used to get the pressure of threats of your back to achieve an advantage over time.
Mind twist is near the top for me...incredibly annoying if it's sol ring + ritual + mind twist...totally fucks you sometimes
That is a very powerful play, but for early massive hand disruption, I've gotta admit i prefer land, dark ritual, entomb jin-gitaxias core augur, exhume jin gitaxias, pass turn, ideally with force of will or daze backup. Then you're back up to a full hand. They start the game in topdeck mode. They never even get going before you utterly obliterate them with massive card advantage. Its even nastier if your turn 2 land drop is wasteland.
Fetches were averaging $13 back than... I wish I actually had money in 2011.
Top 8 Colored artifacts...