Cold War Saxon APCs in Ukraine
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- Опубліковано 21 тра 2022
- Cold War warriors in Ukraine. In this video we take a look at the Saxon armoured personnel carriers Ukraine purchased from Britain before the war. We look at their history and their use by the Ukrainian armed forces and examine some of the few photographs of them which have surfaced recently.
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armourersbench.com/2022/05/22...
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Thanks for watching guys, as always, check out the accompanying article for this video here: armourersbench.com/2022/05/22/saxon-apcs-in-ukraine/
With regards to General Dannatt's comments, what I find bizzare is that he was criticising the Saxon for not being something it was never meant to be. It looks like the Ukranian Army, just like the British Army, never intended to use the Saxon in the close combat role.
General Dannatt clearly understands that during combat if necessary the saxons would be used in close combat.
@@willallen7757 you could use that argument about any lightly armoured vehicle, though, like the Snatch, or armoured Humvee, though. It still makes the general’s comments a little odd. More about getting himself in the media? Was his book coming out around the time he made them? 🤔
@@MontytheHorse Good point.
Because it was supplied to the Ukrainian military at a time when they really needed AFVs but instead we sent them outdated shite that struggles to keep .50 out that is made with imperial spec parts from the 1970s? its not a good AFV. It just about cuts it as an internal security vehicle but they always do badly in actual wars. Too slow to be truly mobile like a truck or 4x4, too light to be an AFV.
It is a terrible vehicle that will roll with very little effort. It has zero off road capability, not even good on most local type Ukrainian roads. It is practically impossible to drive in a straight line. I know from experience.
I’ve heard some former Brittish soldiers say: “now the Saxon’s are in Ukraine it’s their problem”.
They're not kidding.
In 2014 and now in 2022 Ukrainian defence forces have seen enormous growth due to mobilisation and volunteers. all new formations get Kalashnikovs, and heavy armour, but never enough cars and trucks for mobility, evacuation, etc. there is still a huge demand for cars, trucks, and pick-ups within Ukrainian defence forces. so, the state, volunteers and soldiers buy dozens of cars for army units weekly and it's never enough, cause some are lost, etc. back in 2014 situation with equipment was worse, so despite all drawbacks those old trucks been a good help.
Was in these on op telic 2. Trust me I felt better in one of these than an open top Land Rover. The amount of road side bombs going off kept me and the crew safe to a degree. Glad we had them. Used them in Bosnia & N. Ireland as well.
As you say most are being used as some sort of ambulance. Considering we are seeing people being evacuated in cars and trucks at least this gives a bit more protection than a typical car.
If you slow motion this you will see one of the men about to de-bus at 01:05 is armed with the trials version of the L86 which had bipod legs but no outrigger to support them or the heavy barrel and the much smaller cone shaped flash eliminator carried over from the 4.85mm prototypes.
Yep, topic for another video, have spotted a few in various training films. XL70s in some.
If used in the way they were designed to be used they are good vehicles, but they are not IFV’s and should not be used as IFV’s
Exactly, seems the Ukrainians realised this fairly quickly. Thanks for watching.
The Ukrainian forces seem to sometimes rate western vehicles despised by or fallen out of favor with its original users comparatively highly.
I recall a Ukrainian account on social media showing an armored Humvee's windshield withstanding a 14.5mm and the statement was that "Americans make some serious armor".
Survivor bias at work, though Ukrainians do appear to have a mentality of making do with what they have as part of their national history.
I think they are not used to the reliability regardless of limitations. Western equipment generally just does as advertised. Com block stuff it is hit and miss.
The Tigr the Russian Iveco is also much loved for that reason. They love the m113/YPR 765 for that reason as well. And that it is much more comfortable to ride in then a BRT/BMP.
Either way it shows that Western militaries should look at the Israeli's for inspiration and keep every piece of kit possible as long aa possible. Upgrade it etc. You never know when you need to mobilize large reserves.
I bet the Ukrainians would have loved to get 1000 M60/M48 Patton tanks with one of the available upgrade packages.
M113's/M60's ,CCR fortunate son playing, Huey gunships flying past.
@@rolandxor179 I don't think that they'd favor the Pattons if there are Abrams available. Even to this day, documented or estimated tank losses by both UA and RU forces are less than the number of M1 Abrams tanks the US has in storage, which are in at least workable condition given the fact the US puts actual effort into keeping their reserve stocks usable instead of letting it rust in a desert, and the Abrams' is a far more capable tank than the Patton.
@@classifiedad1Of course they would also prefer F-22's but it is clear that the Russian military can be defeated by cold war era weaponry. They don't need the latest & greatest. We can keep that back in case Russia gets any ideas in regards to NATO territory. Also those upgrade packages make the M60's quite formidable. New gun,optics,engines etc. Do a search on UA-cam.
@@classifiedad1 abrams aren't available. America is sketchy about selling hardware. But m60tanks could definitely be sold. On the cheap. And u could probably get 10 m60 to 1 Abrams
Well the vehicle maybe an ugly duckling and past it's prime, but the thing to remember is that transport is better than walking and some light armour is better than no armour. As for use as battlefield Ambulances, they appear to be fairly easy to load and unload the wounded into a protected space inside the vehicle for protection and warmth, vital for personnel in shock.
Mark from Melbourne Australia
It's a battle taxi, used as intended it's fine. Looking at all the Russian kit that's been destroyed (even the modern stuff) the Saxon seems fit for purpose.
Exactly Tom, as I say in the video, it seems the Ukrainians quickly recognised this. Thanks for watching.
Armies can't resist mounting guns on anything with wheels. Jeeps in WW2, gun trucks in Vietnam. And I'm 99% sure the Humvee wasn't designed to have a ring mount with an M2 heavy machine gun. The up-to-the-battle taxi design never survives as intended, they all seem to succumb to this.
Btw, I first heard the term battle taxi many years ago when it was applied to the M113, which was meant to get men near and then into the fight.
The Saxon would be a damned good replacement for situations where civilian vehicles are being used, much higher chance of survival one would think.
Yes indeed! Thanks for watching.
It seems to be a perfectly capable vehicle when used properly. It makes a good ambulance and appears well suited for rear logistics security and maybe for towed artillery.
The problem is western ideology. To them vehicles are useless unless they can withstand a direct hit by a nuclear bomb, but then they use things like this and up-armored Humvees as armored cars on the front line.
The problem was what it had to keep up with in armoured infantry operations. The Warrior AFV became ubiquitous and it did all the things the Saxon did while being able to defend it self. The other factor is that the Warrior had a NBC system. Its not about surviving a nuke its about surviving what came after - the nuclear or chemical environment. Artillery has become self propelled while guns that do require towing are now air portable, so their towing vehicles have to be portable as well. In the limited role the Ukrainians deployed it in they have found it to be useful but now that matters have heated up somewhat it has very limited survivability.
@@zoiders you missed the sarcasm. Not an actual nuke, but hyperbole about an overmatch weapon. Your Warrior is an example of just such a "cadillac" vehicle western militaries seek. Way more capability than needed just to tow a gun or patrol an airfield perimeter.. Also, towed artillery is towed. The airlift ability is nice for promotional videos but the same environment that necessitates the rapid movement of the guns is far too hostile for helicopters to be reliable. Again, ultra fancy self propelled artillery is cost prohibitive. Case in point, Germany sent 7 whereas the US is sending 90 towed units. Cost and simplicity is are some of the reasons the US still has both.
@@chriskortan1530 Have you actually been in a Saxon? as I am telling you now they make shit AFVs or APCs and even worse towing vehicles. 8 men? 😂 oh my fucking lord you should try de-bussing from one in a hurry while in full fighting order with just 4 men. You can keep your toxic mansplaining about sarcasm to your self as well. Your only argument seems to be a list of "whatabouts" rather than experience of the actual concept of operations that the Saxon fails to fit into.
The Saxon was designed to deploy troops from the UK to Germany in the 1980's....it's a role Warrior could never do because it's tracked...The Saxon was perceived as simply a lightly armoured replacement for the 4 tonne truck, nothing more..Short of war, there were versions designed for IS but its size made it less than ideal in places like NI...
@@peterevans8194 Ah you read the bullshit Wikipedia page. The Saxon was intended for use as an internal security vehicle by Thatcher's Tory government as that was where we were heading prior to Thatcher being ousted. Its 100% incapable of replacing a Bedford as long distance transport. It is however just enough to keep the bricks and bottles out on the streets of London or Belfast.
If the Saxon is to be criticized for not exceeding its design parameters, what about the M113 which , as far back as Vietnam, was commonly seen with its embarked soldiers riding on the roof because it was unsafe to ride inside.
Highly underrated "armored taxi". For behind the lines movement of ammo, personnel, casualties, and cargo this vehicle was just spot on.
Never thought I'd see Saxons deployed in a shooting war with Russia. I thought most would peacefully rust away, like the rest of 1970s automotive history.
Can't believe they haven't received a huge amount of 113's they are problely the best taxi of that class available.
The road accidents were likely due to the Saxon being a right-hand drive vehicle, built for British left-hand drive roads, whereas Ukraine drives on the right with left-hand drive vehicles.
It's nothing to do with that. They are 4x4 "4 Ton" Bedfords underneath that once armoured behave just like a loaded vehicle. Like all 4x4 vehicles with high ride height they are extremely easy to roll over at speed. The un-armoured variant used to be ubiquitous as a troop transport until early the 2000's when a series of fatal road traffic collisions led to the practice being banned. Its replacement the "8 Ton" now has individual combat seats for each occupant. Its almost like a rally drivers seat and roll cage for each passenger in the rear.
The guy who has to have his head out the capola to guide the driver most probably had frost bite
I liked this vehicle despite its limitations. At that time it was designated as transport for nonmechanised infantry. Moving them by ferry, from the UK over to Germany. Better than traveling in a civilian type bus or on the back of a canvas covered 4 ton lorry. It was also utilised as a riot/crowd control vehicle.
Interesting to see the cost of these being sold by a UK dealer (Most likely Withams), highly inflated prices considering what the public could pick them up for at the time. Its surprising to hear the Ukrainian's thoughts on these old beasts too, at least they got a new lease of life outside of the usual law enforcement use seen elsewhere. Maybe some scope for further content research into the Saxon.
Probably all the paperwork and under the table payouts haha
Military systems come with end-user licences and lawyers cost money. So does international shipping.
I'm curious to know if the vehicles included spare/service parts (i'm assuming the UK dealer bought the vehicles and stores as a job lot) which if so would make the price paid quite reasonable, especially at the time of purchase when the Ukrainian government wanted to show a militarized policing presence in the regions of insurgency and the Wests reluctance regarding military sales.
Absolutely correct The FV432 Alvis stormer is £20,000 price. Remember the dealer was on top gear where they have to use military vehicles to demolish house. this one has a maximum speed of 60 miles per hour if the tires are not shot. however it drops to 30 miles per hour if the tires are shot
They are decent replacement for trucks when moving infantry up to forward positions. They also make decent ambulances. If you try to use it as a fighting vehicle you deserve all the ordnance headed your way for being a wolly.
These are certainly better for transportation than a transit van or estate car.
The Saxon sounds like it had been pressed in to roles it was never meant to serve. Much like the U.S. HMMWV. Unfortunate that one was taken out of service while the other was pressed only further in to muddy waters.
Better than a 110 snatch that we had to use in all sorts of situations. Any vehicle these days isn’t a match for the latest ordinance at best like any other it will keep you warm and dry until it’s a target.
Oh wow! I remember seeing one of these almost a year ago and had no idea what it was (here in Ukraine) one of the weirdest vehicles I’ve ever seen and looked like it was crudely made.
Talking about crudely made - just remember, the Saxon has been produced by the same country that made the Sten MKII.
But Bedford lorries are the antithesis of the Sten haha.
@@TheArmourersBench To be completely honest our first thought was it was a “homemade” armored vehicle like Islamic State or Narcos so seeing this video now definitely cleared that up for us haha
They are definitely old school and have a look about them that's for sure. Thankfully more modern vehicles are on thier way!
@@PeterNissen878112 Just what about it seems "crudely made"? its no better or worse than any of the contemporary armoured cars of the cold war.
I remember these in the 90s, was train to drive them but never recalled using them. Taxi would be the best description for them.
Lol don't worry guys, they've been sent M113's now too. I swear it's just a disposal ground for outdated equipment.
Americans still use M113s in some roles
@@Ukraineaissance2014 Yeah, it can tow stuff, or transport things, but it isn't a frontline vehicle. It's also a bit of a turd. America also uses anything and everything they have, and if not using it seems to mothball large quantities of stuff, though nowhere near what the USSR did. There's still mothballed stuff in facilities and bunkers out there, it's nuts. BTR's and BMPs stashed in old bunkers.
Awesome thanks
The fundamental problem was there was a swap out to a modern engine more suitable/available for civilian or private use that halved the power. That and ground pressure issue turned them into kind of bank armoured car tier vehicles. Paved roads and maybe crash through a barrier.
Saxon was designed to transport Type A infantry battalions to Germany or Denmark within 24 hours and provide some (very) short term taxi services around the relevant NATO stop line. That was the limit of Saxon's role and it was reasonably well designed for that purpose. It was a lot better than driving to Armageddon in a Bedford 4 tonner or a requisitioned civilian coach. People forget that Saxon was designed for a one week war - not as an IFV or a working vehicle for prolonged campaigns. The problem was that the MOD should have sold the entire fleet straight after the Cold War.
They were being sold off by the MOD's agent for about £10 - £20k (at times only £8k). So this dealer made a lot of cash. There is someone on FB who is trying to convince ferret owners to sell him their vehicles cheap so he can sell them for vastly inflated prices to Ukraine. As has been pointed out to him, doing so he would have blood on his hands. Ferrets have next to no spare parts, and tyres that are at least 40 years old. They run on petrol and, although resistant to small arms fire of the the 1950's onward, it had been demonstrated by American owners that current small arms can punch through the armour. There are no training manuals in Ukrainian and due to the pre selective gearbox, if you try to drive it like a manual, you will destroy the gearbox.
He is still continuing with his plan.
(EDITED for typos. It's late here.)
Absolutely grim the thought of a scalper trying to sell Ukraine Ferrets.
@@TheArmourersBench Definitely. He runs a well known tank driving / rental company. He claims the Ukrainians are desperate for ferrets and will 'figure it out' when they get some. No one on the ferret groups are agreeing with him but he seems to have a stock of worn out knackered ones he's planning on selling.
Christ, they definitely aren't crying out for them...
With luck his scheme will fail and none will be sent. Otherwise you might as well shoot the crews yourself and save everyone the effort.
Logistically the Ferrets are a nightmare and possibly a death trap if used the wrong way. There is however nothing about cold war small arms ammunition that is different to that of today. They would keep out 7.62x51/7.62×54R AP back then and they will still keep it out today, 5.54/5.56/7.62x39 will most certainly not pose a threat. A .50 BMG SLAP might penetrate for instance but then again its an armoured car and not a tank. AT Rifles having been a thing since the 30s when "tanks" were little more than armoured recce vehicles with a turret. The Ferret is most decidedly a recce vehicle.
A very interesting report !
Thanks for watching Larry!
Looks kinda like those Rhodesian armored cars developed during the 70's guerrilla war.
judging from the look and the name, that thing would make a great w40k guards vehicle
Most of the Saxons in the video seem to be the version used in Northern Ireland. These had extra armour inside the crew compartment. One even had "riot wings" 😂 . I used them when I served in catterick they are just a big armoured taxi definitely not a front line vehicle. Their job was to take us close to the front and then we'd use our feet the rest of the way . They were fairly spacious inside too.
4:16 interesting to see air assault troops still applying their old soviet style emblem
awesome vehical!
Remember these growing up in Northern Ireland
I used to work on them when they were in NI
Interestingly it did look like they were the NI spec Saxon Patrols.
I see the brittish uses the same AA-lavett for their vehicle mounted GPMG's as Sweden.
Thanks
My mate set one of these on fire doing maintenance on the CPs battery bank
My dad drove saxons when he was in the British Army Transport Regiment. This and everyother vehicle he said it was the best job in the world.
Seen these get used in Northern Ireland but they had big blast shields on each side that came out.
Australia has donated Bushmaster APCs and upgraded M113s to Ukraine.
They have indeed! Good kit.
I got a ride in one in Kabul in 2006 while serving with ISAF.
they're getting 2 doz of our Bushmasters, too.
Given their fondness for writing transport - based rock, I'm surprised Saxon never made a song about the Saxon...
Everyone saying this is better than a Transit van is missing something important: Fuel logistics.
There are definitely circumstances when the Saxon would be preferable to a Transit - ie you have a high risk of taking fire from small arms or fragmentation weapons. But when fuel supplies are constrained, the Transit is preferable. I have read that diesel is especially hard to get in Ukraine right now, so a lightweight, fuel efficient gas powered cargo/passenger van is going to be more usable than a heavy diesel guzzling one.
The Saxon have similar performance as other cold war armored vehicles like American VC-200 and Soviets BTR.
I really enjoyed working with Saxon. Not sure I would want to go to war in one.
General intelligence confuses battle taxi with IFV
Some armour is better than no armour if you have to move about. I'd rather be in that than in a mini-van.
Great video just found your channel! Subbed!!
Thanks David! Welcome aboard, check out some of the older videos, new content every Sunday.
If one remembers the vehicle on Top Gear the top speed is 60 mph if the tires haven't hadn't been shot
They are good enough as a behind the line truck. They are for logistics. Moving men and materials to from the lines. They are not assault vehicles.
Exactly. Thanks for watching
Good as quick taxi or transport duties but not combat unless self defence.
Absolutely Kevin, thanks for watching.
Good for VBIEDs. If you have the right licence
I've seen on Telegram, photos and a video of what I'm pretty sure were a couple of old British Saracen armoured cars that were plentiful in the 60's and 70's, especially in Northern Ireland during 'the troubles" Dad was as squaddie then, and spent much time on those old junkers. The ones I saw had been upgraded somewhat, with additional plate armour bolted or welded to the roof and sides, as well as RPG screens fitted offset the hull. The wheels had bolt on spats covering the tyres to about 75% diameter. The windshield was protected by steel plate with several wide slates cut into them and more RPG screen offset. They must have cut the roof, as they had two RPD machine guns mounted behind more steel plate that was angled to deflect incoming rounds up and to either side, which I thought was smart. They were painted in a weird combination of green, brown, tan and black, and had "punisher" stencils all over it. Which unit it that? Azov, Chechen or some local militia? Anyway, pretty impressive for what are likely builds for only a few thousand dollars, and I wonder if stuff like suspension, transmission, fuel and the old Rolls Royce petrol engines have been upgraded to something more modern? I doubt it, but they look the part, with a real Mad Max feel to them. I hope they still trundle around the theatre to this day. But where the hell did they come from and how did they get them? Such a strange little war.
So all the British needed to do was to slap some extra sheet metal on the damn thing and add some slat armor?
Good battle taxi for shrapnel, but not much else.
for local , for soft defence . would be good enough ! if one platon of gunners would see this in every village , they wouldnt think to go in guns blazing ! without armoured support !
You know what a RPG is? This piece of equipment doesn't need a tank or 30mm auto canon to get destroyed.
The Saxons look like Rhodesian Bush War armored vehicles.
any chance of a video on the Australian Bushmaster?
Certainly one for the future!
i imagine for pulling artillery pieces on flat land they would just make it.
Seems like the sort of thing you would want at hostomel airport
In 2013 they were probably want to sold Saxons to some countries under embargo but for a higher price. But war broke out and they stayed in Ukraine. For example Nigeria is using Ukrainian APC and Saxons simultaneously so Ukraine officials might planned to used their connections. But this is only my hypothesis.
I did find that interesting
Good! Thanks for watching!
You know its good when it's named after a German Horde and made by Bedford.
As a american sounds like in there day in uk service they were better than those non armored HUMVEEs than the americans used.
Drove these in my RA days in 1997. They were absolutely awful.
I want to live in one so bad. I would deck out so phresh
i bet we are gonna see how alot of our nato gear does side by side with the warsaw gear
They've also been buying lots of Snatch Landys.
Its almost like a little bit of something is better than a whole lot of nothing.
Where is the VSS / AK-12 video you promised me on twitter? :p
j/k man, good video!
Excellent in Northern Ireland.
A Saxon is better than no Saxon at all...... accidents happens..... but they do have a role!!
Did they use a Red Cross vehicle for troop Transport in a excercise, or real combat?
In the footage? I'd say that's an exercise but who knows the case at the front.
Other than the flat tires those Saxons are not damaged. So explain the problem with the Saxon. They just need run flat tires.
GIVE. THEM. EVERYTHING.
better than nothing. they can use them for SOMETHING im sure.
It would seem more than capable as a medical vehicle
Marginally better than walking
its gotta be built better than a cold war lada or moskvich? a land rover no good its thin like a dingy. wouldn't stop a pellet rifle.
freakishly high profile...
To be honest most MRAPs are. Nature of the shape.
Better than nothing
Imagine this armed with 2 maxims
Deathtraps
originally built for the bannana bunch to drive about in
I was never a great fan of the Saxon but if the Ukrainians have found them useful then you can't really complain. At least we've all been honest and not tried to con a potentialy valuable ally. Slava Ukraini
As another Ukrainian has already mentioned in the comment section, some armour is always better than none. During the initial 2014 Russian invasion world nations were reluctant to sell any military gear to Ukraine. Non-working armoured carriers were often replaced by a mere conscripted city buses. Therefore, Saxons were a good purchase to fill in the gap. I appreciate that general's honest warning though. Many thanks for your support! Cheers!
They are very good value for £50,000, much better than using a hilux to move blokes around.
I don't know, there's a certain mystique to riding around in an up-armored hilux with a machine gun mounted to the bed. It's definitely "shaping the plow into a sword".
The British general is too stuck in the counter IED, counter mine mindset, which this vehicle was never designed for
Like it or not but that’s the current level that military vehicles are digested for today.
At first I've read "sexton" .. that would be very funny
Why does Ukraine need armoured vehicles when they should still have a few thousand tanks/apc in inventory? Is this because they’re scaling up the military or because the on paper inventory stock counts were inflated?
It's because their reserve/volunteer manpower is about 5 times larger than their standing army. That's almost 800 thousand additional troops that you suddenly have to find equipment and transport for.
Is there enough spare equipment in the West for a million soldiers?
Also if they have a million soldiers do they even need to mechanise everything?
@@Kizron_Kizronson absolutely this. I've heard some podcasts of combat vets who went over there to help train basic fundamentals to their territorial defense force and how ill-equipped they are in general since all the proper gear goes to the standing army as priority first. Stuff like simple bandoliers to hold extra magazines for their guns were in short supply. You can't really go to war with mags in your pockets.
But then those territorial defense forces sometimes get shipped off to the frontlines. Russia has a larger manufacturing industry than Ukraine, if the rest of the western world wishes to use Ukraine as the primary meat grinder for russian forces, at least spare or give more supplies and equipment to keep them in fighting shape.
How do I buy one for $50k?
3:35 that thing in the render by the door, needs more polygons, its looks too fake.
I had the displeasure of riding in the back of one of these. Not fun at all.
My wife drove these when she was in loggies, she almost ran over a bloke in a wheelchair ♿️ driving through a town in the U.K. 😂😂😂
What was it replaced by?
In the UK? Or Ukraine?
In the UK, it had no direct replacement...The MOD simply decided that role was not needed any more, and got rid of Saxon and eventually many of the battalions that used it...
There were no NATO APC's, including saxon in balkans in mid 80's. WTF?
The hot war is compared to the Cold War? The war in Ukraine is most compared to WW2