It would have been nice to have a 5" section of the thicker material to compare. You can do some paper napkin calculations to get there. I calculated a thicker 5" would be about 7.2 pounds per foot. Considering that most manufacturers do not bend the A-frame to extend along the frame, but rather, weld at two points (front of the trailer and at the point it intersects with the frame runners), we only talking about 7-8 feet of a-frame per side. So, for about 30-40 pounds, these manufacturers are rolling the dice with your safety. I would also counter the real reason is not weight, but cost. If they can save $100 on the A-frame, times 10,000 trailers, they just put an extra $100,000 in their pocket.
It would be really cool if you would contact Northwood, the manufacturer of Arctic Fox and ask them what the frame thickness of their travel trailers and 5th wheels is. I believe that there 5th wheels use 12" I beams that are .250 thick (1/4), but I could be wrong, going off of memory when I was trailer shopping in 2017. I really liked their frames.
I'm not an engineer, but I've read a book or 2 on this. And in general, the outside diameter/ size is what makes the strength. The wall thickness helps w/ steel that would be damaged or compromised. The taller thinner would be box would be well worth the upgrade unless you're very very weight sensitive.
I wouild submit that often, you do not get what you pay for. Folks are paying tens of thousands of dollars for a travel trailer, and in the case of a fifth wheel, hundreds of thousands of dollars, and they are falling apart. For that kind of money, you expect, let's just say, a little more than what they are getting.
If what they are currently using is "all you need, more than adequate, engineered to withstand the loads they expect" then we wouldn't be seeing A frame failures. I know they can't account for every scenario. I'm no rocket surgeon, but if I build something and it fails due to load then I have to build it stronger. We're not talking about a lot of extra weight here to go with the thicker steel.
When you’re calculating the dynamic strength of any structure, you’re calculating it to a percentage, a safety margin. on things like travel trailers, and even big rig trailers this is going to vary depending on load and load is not static load is dynamic, so a camper trailer that is designed for a certain gross vehicle weight will have typically a safety margin engineered into its structure based on the known variables. All of the structures are designed to a price point, which means they are going to use the least amount of material and even sometimes engineering to get the job done for the given specifications. When you start introducing things like aftermarket weight distribution hitches, it’s nearly impossible to detect all of the dynamic loads because these aftermarket distribution systems are all different, towing conditions are different and road conditions are different.
If they truly designed the frames properly, they would already know exactly how much force rough roads and weight distribution hitches would exert on the frame. Its no secret most rvers use weight distribution systems to help tame unruly large travel trailers, and make up for an often undersized tow vehicle. If Lippert doesnt calculate that in, then shame on them.
I want a safe trailer if they need to add weight to the frame and outriggers then so be it. Most of us have the truck to pull more weight so add to the dry weight.
Veteran automotive engineer here - making the frames 'stiffer' might help, but the bodies do not add sufficient stability. 1 kg of reinforcement in the body, in the correct areas, would create more rigidity than 3 kg more in the frame.
Stronger A frames on Travel trailers are a great thing , however they are much heavier adding to tongue weight. The morale of the story have more truck than you need to tow & don’t use weight distribution
Very informative video. I believe RV manufacturers should perform a failure analysis of the recent frame failures, and then reinforce those areas that failed with thicker steel. Understanding why the frames are failing with the existing steel thickness utilized and show that data to consumers would give me a better piece of mind then just adding thicker steel.
I love the information that you've given out.I have a travel trailer and I have to use the equalizer bars to keep down the swaying. Never really had in mind, but the extra weight being put on that a frame.Until you brought to my attention now I keep a closer eye on it.Be sure I'm not developing any cracks or any excessive.Wear one thing I did notice is that they actually have the coupler welded to the A frame. So i now will keep an eye out on that part of A frame
my .02. yes give me the heavier frame every time...... Its one of the reasons when i bought my 5th wheel i bought a DRV. They use 1/4" steel in their frames on the big units like my toyhauler, its one of the reasons they are so heavy compared to other similar sized rigs.
I have the heavy duty frame on my Forest River ibex 10 LHG. I was told by the factory rep for Ember who created and commissioned the beast mode Curt suspension that that HD full tube frame was necessary for the suspension system. I am a mechanical engineer and product designer with 40 years experience in both motorsports and extreme action sports products. The main thing that you wanna be looking at is the type of alloy used in the materials there is a lot of difference between mild steel, high tensile steel, 4130 Chromo, 4340 Chromo, and even stainless or aluminum. For reference the main frame rails on my Forest River IBEX 10 or 2 x 5 the A-frame is 2 x 4. You can use standardly available calculators to calculate the bending strength of any tube with any alloy in any wall thickness. Another factory is how the A-frame is attached to the main frame of the trailer.
It is reasonable to ask if improved suspensions would help by reducing the loads transmitted to the frame. Some aircraft use trailing link suspensions which are noted for their ability to absorb loads, cushion landings, allow operation on unprepared surfaces. These would also reduce the vibration and impact loads transmitted to the interior of the vehicle to reduce the stresses placed on the interior components.
9/64" Steel is 9 gauge, that is a special size for the trailer industry. All domestic tube is ASTM A500 B/C, which is minimum of 50k Yield, high strength low alloy. They could be using higher yield which would help with elongation, which is stretch before failure.
I think we are trying to solve a problem there is already a solution for. There are many RV manufactures with different floor plans, options, and price points to match. There options are almost too many for most people to make an informed decision. I’m going to give you a business idea, I don’t have the knowledge or the time to start this one. JD you have a tone of knowledge of the industry. How about you start a service that will match the right RV and RV dealer for the customer. For instance you could start by asking what tow vehicle they will be using. Current dealers just want to sell an rv not necessarily the right one for the customers tow vehicle. Price point, floor plan, etc. Give them options for WDH, Pin boxes, 5th wheel hitches for long bed, short bed, etc. I could go on but I’m sure you get the picture.
So you’re thinking here is correct when I bought my little Offroad camper, I went to four dealers and they didn’t even ask me what the towing capacity of my vehicle was or what I was even using to tow it with. And they immediately started trying to target the larger heavier trailers, even though I said I wanted something small that was Offroad capable.
How many travel trailers are actually having tongue failures? Is this really an issue? Or is it something that is being brought up because of the 5th wheel frame flex issue?
Another interesting video, would have been cool to calculate the weight of your A-Frame on your trailer and then calculate what it would be with the two optional sizes of frame material. Thanks Again.
I know Northwood manufacturing and Outdoors RV make there own frames ,I wonder how they compare to Lippard, I think they're much more structurally sound, I was wondering what you think?
Great question! Northwood and ORV make great units for sure! Keep in mind they tend to be SIGNIFICANTLY heavier than many mainstream RVs from Indiana. That said, some brands that use Lippert frames, spec their frames to be much heavier duty.
yep, Northwood manufacturing and Outdoors RV make their own frames SPECIFIC to each floor plan and yep they are heavier. They also throughput the a-frame...meaning they don't weld the a-frame to the bottom of the chassis which I really like the idea.
My understanding is that RV Manufacturers order a specific frame from Lippert etc etc which is built to the standard for the trailer that the RV Manufacturer gave Lippert etc etc then the RV manufacturer puts whatever box they want to on it.
The size and strength of the steel used to make the A-frame hitch is important, but I think the attachment of the A-frame to the rest of the structure is very important also. A few inches of well that connect the A-frame to the structure is really not that much. Some extra gusseting or strapping would be a good thing
It is not just the dimensions that count. The specifications of the steel are also important. It would be interesting to know the American Society of Testing and Materials specifications of the steel. In addition, the vertical portions of the box section to do not add much strength. The top and bottom horizontal portions withstand the loads. In the normal situation, the top is in compression and the bottom is in tension. That’s why I beams are used. Of course, using higher strength steel would increase costs.
Working the campground during the state fair last year I seen 2 travel trailers with a goose neck installed. 1 was a factor made the other was a very well made home made one. To me the negative was the goose neck sticking. I would have added a platform to haul a generator on it . What is your opinion with this. Also as being a welder if I pulled a big travel trailer I would weld a piece of plate steel along the area where they have a problem breaking. But I pull a 5th wheel so it's not a issue yet. Thanks for all of your RV research
Contrary to popular belief, weight distribution hitches cannot put excessive stress on your trailer’s a-frame. Your tow vehicle and trailer, when coupled together, form a double overhang beam. The tow vehicle’s front axle and the trailer axles are the two fulcrum’s at the ends of the beam. In the middle of the beam is the coupler, which is essentially a pivot point that can move horizontally and vertically. When you initially connect the tow vehicle and trailer without the weight distribution system engaged, the tongue weight of the trailer will typically push the hitch head, and therefore the back of the vehicle downwards. The front bumper of your tow vehicle and the rear bumper of your trailer will both raise further from the ground. When you engage the weight distribution system, there is a rotational force or torque applied to the bottom of the hitch head. This will cause the hitch head, and therefore the rear of your vehicle to rotate upwards. The front bumper of your tow vehicle and trailer bumper will both rotate downward towards the ground. The main fulcrum, or pivot point, about which all this rotation takes place is your tow vehicle’s rear axle. So, there will be torque forces at the hitch head, and each axle position. These can readily be calculated. But, torque is not the same as the distribution of load on the beam, or in this case trailer frame. The torque, in pound feet, is distributed evenly across the trailer frame from the coupler to the axle. Torque must be converted to force for this calculation. The formula for that is Total Torque divided by Radius equals Force. Let’s say for example, it takes 3875 pound feet of torque to return your tow vehicle to level. Assuming a distance of 17.5 feet from the coupler to the center of the axles, the distributed force would be 221. 42 pounds per square foot. Hardly a force capable of breaking a frame.
This makes perfect sense on flat ground, but I suspect the loads applied to the a frame section go up substantially when the tow vehicle encounters a sharp upward incline. It would concentrate the load on the a frame at the brackets that attach the load bars to the a frame possibly causing permanent deformation. As the angle increases the load also increases. The speed at which the angle changes could also play a role in this calculation as well. There are definitely a lot of factors to consider when calculating all of this. Using higher rated load bars than are required can also increase the force applied to the frame. As can a heavier tow vehicle than what the engineers calculated with. There are probably a lot of other factors involved that could potentially change the calculations and could potentially put more load on the a frame than it was designed for. I agree that a properly sized and adjusted weight distribution hitch shouldn’t apply too much load under most circumstances, but I’ve also seen people using a much heavier than required set of load bars on lighter trailers thinking that more is better.
I would like heavier steel. Safety comes before anything thing else. I would also like to see travel trail a-frames attached to the main chassis the same way Northwood manufacturing, Outdoors RV, Palomino Pause or Imperial Outdoors attach the a-frame to the main chassis. The other thing I would REALLY like is for manufacturers to KNOW/make available the proper weight distribution hitch specs for a given unit.
easier question to ask is....What would you rather have your family driving next to on the interstate? A frame thats overbuilt or one thats just enough
It comes down to what your use case is. If you’re driving an undersized suv or light truck you may want the lighter material. For me, I drive a 3/4 ton diesel, I’d rather have the more robust a-frame and heavier duty suspension components as assurance that I won’t experience a failure. I’d rather pay a little more to get something overbuilt than pay a lot later when something has a catastrophic failure.
The design of the a frame point loads the tubing, I found an online load calculator for load bearing spans. A tongue built with the 2x6 by 3/16 tubing with a static load of roughly 3000lbs, on my trailer. The load at the bulkhead point of contact was 22,000psi 22000psi trying to crush that tubing at the point where it meets the front of the trailer. My toyhauler with an empty garage and the weight distrbution hitch is a combined load of over 3000lbs. Rough roads can double or even triple the forces applied, far exceeding the safety factor of the hitch in my big toyhauler travel trailer. Now with my sidebyside loaded the hitch weight drops by 500lbs. I have looked at what happens when the tubing buckles from rough roads, that high psi load at the bulkhead. I am doubling my A frame by adding c channel, I.E. second a frame, inside the original spreading the load at the bulkhead. Simply adding more tubing underneath won't help with the 22000psi crushing load at the bulkhead. In total i add 140lbs of steel and double the strength. Big enclosed trailers use a third 2x6 tubing in the center of the a frame, but rv trailer design doesn't allow this.
Gvwr should go up with stronger frames. Now those pesky light tow vehicles……. What are the dimensions of new superduty frames or even comparable box trailers.
I personally would build minimum with 3/16. Also making the length of the trailers less smaller. It seem to me that if you were to take actual trailers and use them as protypes. You would receive a better ideal on build quality. Remember,the data from lipperts research room is based on "perfect conditions " in side a building. Most roads are nor perfect condition. I think taking a couple of random rvs and have research ers "live" in them. Driving them every road condition would definitely help in better quality builds.
Thicker materials can be a start. They have to be married to a more robust (heavier) suspension/axle/wheel system. A few extra pounds per foot can result in significantly heavier chassis structures. Designers can still create adequately safe frames provided they are correctly spec'd out, using correct and appropriate hardware and applying more and stricter quality protocols. Alloys in structural materials is important.
Well 1/2 and 3/4 ton trucks wouldn't be feasable. Trailers would be very heavy.. maybe reinforce certian sections. The price difference is substantial.. Great Video.
On the Jayco Eagle Travel Trailers that have the 5th Wheel style landing gear and no traditional tongue jack like the Eagle 294CKBS, do you know what they are using in the Frame/A-Frame? These have a GVWR of 11,450 lbs so I would hope that is more than the 2x5 Box....
Heavier frame, your trailer as a model sits on the border line for half ton towable. Because your half ton diesel truck has some extra features and the weight distribution set up you use specifically makes it doable. Considering other half tons it would be failure for a lot of aspects. 3/4 ton would be the real role model so with that said I would go with the beefy frame.
Last summer I was watching UA-cam videos to see which WDH would be best for a 28 FT Airstream that I had ordered. There was nothing mentioned about the frames failing due to these WDH. I selected a Weigh Safe middleweight mainly due to recommendations by you and other video creators who have done their research. I’m now hearing that these WDH could be the problem. It’s almost a year later and I’m still waiting for an answer. I’m thinking of going to a regular tow hitch and dealing with the trailer sway but would appreciate some answers by you guys.
I like BAL Travel Trailer frames. Not a big fan of their fifth wheel frames. That said, they use a much thinner gauge steel that is stamped/bent vs I beams for the main rails. They use similar boxed sections up front. They Huck bolt instead of weld. Much of that is likely due to their process of cutting and attaching frame sections due to their process.
I have been kicking tires for a while now, trying to decide what I want to buy, but I can't see myself buying anything with a lippert frame. I like alot of manufacture layouts and floor plans, but the frame issue is a big problem. I don't know what situation I might come in to while driving that will break the frame. One couple I saw got detoured, and the road was pretty rough and caused their frame to over stress and break. These frames need to be built to the condition of someone needing to pull out of traffic into a steep parking lot where they can't get out and unhook the weight distribution hitch safely. The frame should handle that situation if it arises.
Maybe I am missing something, but... It seems to me that the failures have been at the welds (places where different sections of frame members are joined together). I do not see permanently bent/deformed/twisted frame members. If this is true, then thickness of the frame pieces is not the issue. Maybe the solution to the problems is better reinforcements at the places where the welds are. (additional plates or more overlap of the joining areas). Of course, quality of welds is also a critical factor.
Great demonstration. Every design has comprimises, the added weight reduces cargo capacity and may increase the total towed weight requiring a larger tow vehicle. The taller box section increases the surface available to weld other components adding strengh. In my opinion, the industry has gotten too deep into the safety tolerance. Is the frame supplier honestly stating the maximum allowable GVWR? Is the RV builder , building too close to that maximum GVWR? Is the consumer being careful not to overload the equipment? Who knew that changing the pinbox may result in added stress to an area already over-stressed? I was surprised how fast the weight increased, if the entire chassis was tubular and the taller or thicker material was used, the diference on the total weight would be substantial.
If you add that heavier steel you not only add cost but weight. People will then complain about not being able to tow their small trailer with their small vehicle. This is unpopular but if you don't overload your trailer the frame will rarely fail.
No your thinking is wrong about this problem @ 0:19 we see the a frame is just tack on to the bottom of the trailer frame it not fully Incorporated into the frame of the trailer by the a frame passing through the front frame of the trailer and giving it that extra bracing and rigidity like you find on the extra heavy duty equipment trailers
Most luxury inside has to be riding on a good frame. So yeah sell me a better frame. Or you could be the fanciest trailer broke on the side of the road.
The man in the street has zero idea s of frame thickness overall , but note spacecraft/new horizons/ lux all have thicker frames and i have yet to hear of any problems with these makers, so conclusion is heavy = costs = longer life = full time living against what is called a weekend trailor and shorter life span, maybe save the money long term for better quality long term life span. customer priorty and his wallet on what he can afford to pay. The old adage you get what you pay for comes to mind.
Leave it to Lippert to try to figure out a way to con people into thinking that lighter is just fine. If you were building a roll cage for a race car, would you cheap out on the safety roll cage to keep your weight down or would you find someplace else - ANY place else that you might be able to cut your weight. DUH!
There is no way any viewer could answer your question. A mechanical engineer with all the necessary data needs to design the frame to withstand the forces that will be placed on it during normal use including with a WDH. The options of you and your viewers are worthless.
It would have been nice to have a 5" section of the thicker material to compare. You can do some paper napkin calculations to get there. I calculated a thicker 5" would be about 7.2 pounds per foot. Considering that most manufacturers do not bend the A-frame to extend along the frame, but rather, weld at two points (front of the trailer and at the point it intersects with the frame runners), we only talking about 7-8 feet of a-frame per side. So, for about 30-40 pounds, these manufacturers are rolling the dice with your safety.
I would also counter the real reason is not weight, but cost. If they can save $100 on the A-frame, times 10,000 trailers, they just put an extra $100,000 in their pocket.
It would be really cool if you would contact Northwood, the manufacturer of Arctic Fox and ask them what the frame thickness of their travel trailers and 5th wheels is. I believe that there 5th wheels use 12" I beams that are .250 thick (1/4), but I could be wrong, going off of memory when I was trailer shopping in 2017. I really liked their frames.
ORV and NORTHWOOD RVs are very well built ON THEIR OWN FRAMES (as you know).
I won't own a towable RV that isn't from ORV or Northwood.
I'm not an engineer, but I've read a book or 2 on this. And in general, the outside diameter/ size is what makes the strength. The wall thickness helps w/ steel that would be damaged or compromised. The taller thinner would be box would be well worth the upgrade unless you're very very weight sensitive.
It all comes down to this…. You get what you pay for. If you want what you want, then you must be willing to pay for it.
Is grand design cheap?
I wouild submit that often, you do not get what you pay for. Folks are paying tens of thousands of dollars for a travel trailer, and in the case of a fifth wheel, hundreds of thousands of dollars, and they are falling apart. For that kind of money, you expect, let's just say, a little more than what they are getting.
Something else to consider is that most RVs do not use fully tubular frame rails for the main habitat structure they use a C channel frame.
Actually most use I beams
If what they are currently using is "all you need, more than adequate, engineered to withstand the loads they expect" then we wouldn't be seeing A frame failures. I know they can't account for every scenario. I'm no rocket surgeon, but if I build something and it fails due to load then I have to build it stronger. We're not talking about a lot of extra weight here to go with the thicker steel.
When you’re calculating the dynamic strength of any structure, you’re calculating it to a percentage, a safety margin. on things like travel trailers, and even big rig trailers this is going to vary depending on load and load is not static load is dynamic, so a camper trailer that is designed for a certain gross vehicle weight will have typically a safety margin engineered into its structure based on the known variables. All of the structures are designed to a price point, which means they are going to use the least amount of material and even sometimes engineering to get the job done for the given specifications. When you start introducing things like aftermarket weight distribution hitches, it’s nearly impossible to detect all of the dynamic loads because these aftermarket distribution systems are all different, towing conditions are different and road conditions are different.
If they truly designed the frames properly, they would already know exactly how much force rough roads and weight distribution hitches would exert on the frame. Its no secret most rvers use weight distribution systems to help tame unruly large travel trailers, and make up for an often undersized tow vehicle. If Lippert doesnt calculate that in, then shame on them.
Yes . Safety always . A safe frame.. makes for safe an great haul .. and removes soft floors and cracked frame .
I want a safe trailer if they need to add weight to the frame and outriggers then so be it. Most of us have the truck to pull more weight so add to the dry weight.
Veteran automotive engineer here - making the frames 'stiffer' might help, but the bodies do not add sufficient stability. 1 kg of reinforcement in the body, in the correct areas, would create more rigidity than 3 kg more in the frame.
I think the extra weight might make it extra safe! I prefer Safety 🥇 first!
I’m gonna trust that the frame companies have done the research and know what’s needed
Stronger A frames on Travel trailers are a great thing , however they are much heavier adding to tongue weight. The morale of the story have more truck than you need to tow & don’t use weight distribution
I like the idea of your Rv star ⭐️ program… also seems to me that your gonna be playing wack a mole with issues created by solving otjers
Very informative video. I believe RV manufacturers should perform a failure analysis of the recent frame failures, and then reinforce those areas that failed with thicker steel. Understanding why the frames are failing with the existing steel thickness utilized and show that data to consumers would give me a better piece of mind then just adding thicker steel.
I love the information that you've given out.I have a travel trailer and I have to use the equalizer bars to keep down the swaying. Never really had in mind, but the extra weight being put on that a frame.Until you brought to my attention now I keep a closer eye on it.Be sure I'm not developing any cracks or any excessive.Wear one thing I did notice is that they actually have the coupler welded to the A frame. So i now will keep an eye out on that part of A frame
my .02. yes give me the heavier frame every time...... Its one of the reasons when i bought my 5th wheel i bought a DRV. They use 1/4" steel in their frames on the big units like my toyhauler, its one of the reasons they are so heavy compared to other similar sized rigs.
I have the heavy duty frame on my Forest River ibex 10 LHG. I was told by the factory rep for Ember who created and commissioned the beast mode Curt suspension that that HD full tube frame was necessary for the suspension system. I am a mechanical engineer and product designer with 40 years experience in both motorsports and extreme action sports products. The main thing that you wanna be looking at is the type of alloy used in the materials there is a lot of difference between mild steel, high tensile steel, 4130 Chromo, 4340 Chromo, and even stainless or aluminum. For reference the main frame rails on my Forest River IBEX 10 or 2 x 5 the A-frame is 2 x 4. You can use standardly available calculators to calculate the bending strength of any tube with any alloy in any wall thickness. Another factory is how the A-frame is attached to the main frame of the trailer.
It is reasonable to ask if improved suspensions would help by reducing the loads transmitted to the frame. Some aircraft use trailing link suspensions which are noted for their ability to absorb loads, cushion landings, allow operation on unprepared surfaces. These would also reduce the vibration and impact loads transmitted to the interior of the vehicle to reduce the stresses placed on the interior components.
Great comparison. Thanks and keep up the good work.
9/64" Steel is 9 gauge, that is a special size for the trailer industry. All domestic tube is ASTM A500 B/C, which is minimum of 50k Yield, high strength low alloy. They could be using higher yield which would help with elongation, which is stretch before failure.
I think we are trying to solve a problem there is already a solution for. There are many RV manufactures with different floor plans, options, and price points to match. There options are almost too many for most people to make an informed decision. I’m going to give you a business idea, I don’t have the knowledge or the time to start this one.
JD you have a tone of knowledge of the industry. How about you start a service that will match the right RV and RV dealer for the customer. For instance you could start by asking what tow vehicle they will be using. Current dealers just want to sell an rv not necessarily the right one for the customers tow vehicle. Price point, floor plan, etc. Give them options for WDH, Pin boxes, 5th wheel hitches for long bed, short bed, etc. I could go on but I’m sure you get the picture.
So you’re thinking here is correct when I bought my little Offroad camper, I went to four dealers and they didn’t even ask me what the towing capacity of my vehicle was or what I was even using to tow it with. And they immediately started trying to target the larger heavier trailers, even though I said I wanted something small that was Offroad capable.
Well stated and presented.
How many travel trailers are actually having tongue failures? Is this really an issue? Or is it something that is being brought up because of the 5th wheel frame flex issue?
Not many. I guess that depends on what social media says. If it's happening to you, then 1 is too many. I'd guess less than 1 in 10,000 RVs.
Another interesting video, would have been cool to calculate the weight of your A-Frame on your trailer and then calculate what it would be with the two optional sizes of frame material. Thanks Again.
I know Northwood manufacturing and Outdoors RV make there own frames ,I wonder how they compare to Lippard, I think they're much more structurally sound, I was wondering what you think?
Great question! Northwood and ORV make great units for sure! Keep in mind they tend to be SIGNIFICANTLY heavier than many mainstream RVs from Indiana. That said, some brands that use Lippert frames, spec their frames to be much heavier duty.
yep, Northwood manufacturing and Outdoors RV make their own frames SPECIFIC to each floor plan and yep they are heavier. They also throughput the a-frame...meaning they don't weld the a-frame to the bottom of the chassis which I really like the idea.
My understanding is that RV Manufacturers order a specific frame from Lippert etc etc which is built to the standard for the trailer that the RV Manufacturer gave Lippert etc etc then the RV manufacturer puts whatever box they want to on it.
The size and strength of the steel used to make the A-frame hitch is important, but I think the attachment of the A-frame to the rest of the structure is very important also. A few inches of well that connect the A-frame to the structure is really not that much. Some extra gusseting or strapping would be a good thing
It is not just the dimensions that count. The specifications of the steel are also important. It would be interesting to know the American Society of Testing and Materials specifications of the steel. In addition, the vertical portions of the box section to do not add much strength. The top and bottom horizontal portions withstand the loads. In the normal situation, the top is in compression and the bottom is in tension. That’s why I beams are used. Of course, using higher strength steel would increase costs.
Working the campground during the state fair last year I seen 2 travel trailers with a goose neck installed. 1 was a factor made the other was a very well made home made one. To me the negative was the goose neck sticking. I would have added a platform to haul a generator on it .
What is your opinion with this.
Also as being a welder if I pulled a big travel trailer I would weld a piece of plate steel along the area where they have a problem breaking.
But I pull a 5th wheel so it's not a issue yet.
Thanks for all of your RV research
Contrary to popular belief, weight distribution hitches cannot put excessive stress on your trailer’s a-frame. Your tow vehicle and trailer, when coupled together, form a double overhang beam. The tow vehicle’s front axle and the trailer axles are the two fulcrum’s at the ends of the beam. In the middle of the beam is the coupler, which is essentially a pivot point that can move horizontally and vertically.
When you initially connect the tow vehicle and trailer without the weight distribution system engaged, the tongue weight of the trailer will typically push the hitch head, and therefore the back of the vehicle downwards. The front bumper of your tow vehicle and the rear bumper of your trailer will both raise further from the ground.
When you engage the weight distribution system, there is a rotational force or torque applied to the bottom of the hitch head. This will cause the hitch head, and therefore the rear of your vehicle to rotate upwards. The front bumper of your tow vehicle and trailer bumper will both rotate downward towards the ground.
The main fulcrum, or pivot point, about which all this rotation takes place is your tow vehicle’s rear axle. So, there will be torque forces at the hitch head, and each axle position. These can readily be calculated.
But, torque is not the same as the distribution of load on the beam, or in this case trailer frame. The torque, in pound feet, is distributed evenly across the trailer frame from the coupler to the axle. Torque must be converted to force for this calculation. The formula for that is Total Torque divided by Radius equals Force.
Let’s say for example, it takes 3875 pound feet of torque to return your tow vehicle to level. Assuming a distance of 17.5 feet from the coupler to the center of the axles, the distributed force would be 221. 42 pounds per square foot. Hardly a force capable of breaking a frame.
This makes perfect sense on flat ground, but I suspect the loads applied to the a frame section go up substantially when the tow vehicle encounters a sharp upward incline. It would concentrate the load on the a frame at the brackets that attach the load bars to the a frame possibly causing permanent deformation.
As the angle increases the load also increases. The speed at which the angle changes could also play a role in this calculation as well. There are definitely a lot of factors to consider when calculating all of this.
Using higher rated load bars than are required can also increase the force applied to the frame. As can a heavier tow vehicle than what the engineers calculated with. There are probably a lot of other factors involved that could potentially change the calculations and could potentially put more load on the a frame than it was designed for.
I agree that a properly sized and adjusted weight distribution hitch shouldn’t apply too much load under most circumstances, but I’ve also seen people using a much heavier than required set of load bars on lighter trailers thinking that more is better.
I would like heavier steel. Safety comes before anything thing else. I would also like to see travel trail a-frames attached to the main chassis the same way Northwood manufacturing, Outdoors RV, Palomino Pause or Imperial Outdoors attach the a-frame to the main chassis. The other thing I would REALLY like is for manufacturers to KNOW/make available the proper weight distribution hitch specs for a given unit.
The ticker and off cargo weight
easier question to ask is....What would you rather have your family driving next to on the interstate? A frame thats overbuilt or one thats just enough
It comes down to what your use case is. If you’re driving an undersized suv or light truck you may want the lighter material.
For me, I drive a 3/4 ton diesel, I’d rather have the more robust a-frame and heavier duty suspension components as assurance that I won’t experience a failure. I’d rather pay a little more to get something overbuilt than pay a lot later when something has a catastrophic failure.
The design of the a frame point loads the tubing, I found an online load calculator for load bearing spans. A tongue built with the 2x6 by 3/16 tubing with a static load of roughly 3000lbs, on my trailer. The load at the bulkhead point of contact was 22,000psi 22000psi trying to crush that tubing at the point where it meets the front of the trailer. My toyhauler with an empty garage and the weight distrbution hitch is a combined load of over 3000lbs. Rough roads can double or even triple the forces applied, far exceeding the safety factor of the hitch in my big toyhauler travel trailer. Now with my sidebyside loaded the hitch weight drops by 500lbs. I have looked at what happens when the tubing buckles from rough roads, that high psi load at the bulkhead. I am doubling my
A frame by adding c channel, I.E. second a frame, inside the original spreading the load at the bulkhead. Simply adding more tubing underneath won't help with the 22000psi crushing load at the bulkhead. In total i add 140lbs of steel and double the strength. Big enclosed trailers use a third 2x6 tubing in the center of the a frame, but rv trailer design doesn't allow this.
It really isn't that much more of a cost to fortify from the factory. Increase my tongue weight for quality and durability absolutely!
I would be curious about how much they factor the forces of the W/D hitches into the material selection?
Gvwr should go up with stronger frames. Now those pesky light tow vehicles……. What are the dimensions of new superduty frames or even comparable box trailers.
Safety first. Thicker frame
It depends on how much weight people tend to shift using the weight distribution hitch and how often weight distribution hitches are used.
Additional 4 lbs of weight per ft with the 1/4 inch. The welding is critical. So a 40 ft will be 360 lbs more, will that give someone more GVWR ?
Quality and safety is what I prefer.
I personally would build minimum with 3/16. Also making the length of the trailers less smaller. It seem to me that if you were to take actual trailers and use them as protypes. You would receive a better ideal on build quality.
Remember,the data from lipperts research room is based on "perfect conditions " in side a building. Most roads are nor perfect condition. I think taking a couple of random rvs and have research ers "live" in them. Driving them every road condition would definitely help in better quality builds.
Thicker materials can be a start. They have to be married to a more robust (heavier) suspension/axle/wheel system. A few extra pounds per foot can result in significantly heavier chassis structures. Designers can still create adequately safe frames provided they are correctly spec'd out, using correct and appropriate hardware and applying more and stricter quality protocols. Alloys in structural materials is important.
Well 1/2 and 3/4 ton trucks wouldn't be feasable. Trailers would be very heavy.. maybe reinforce certian sections. The price difference is substantial.. Great Video.
On the Jayco Eagle Travel Trailers that have the 5th Wheel style landing gear and no traditional tongue jack like the Eagle 294CKBS, do you know what they are using in the Frame/A-Frame? These have a GVWR of 11,450 lbs so I would hope that is more than the 2x5 Box....
The front A-frame on my Eagle TT is 2x6”
Heavier frame, your trailer as a model sits on the border line for half ton towable. Because your half ton diesel truck has some extra features and the weight distribution set up you use specifically makes it doable. Considering other half tons it would be failure for a lot of aspects. 3/4 ton would be the real role model so with that said I would go with the beefy frame.
Last summer I was watching UA-cam videos to see which WDH would be best for a 28 FT Airstream that I had ordered. There was nothing mentioned about the frames failing due to these WDH. I selected a Weigh Safe middleweight mainly due to recommendations by you and other video creators who have done their research. I’m now hearing that these WDH could be the problem. It’s almost a year later and I’m still waiting for an answer. I’m thinking of going to a regular tow hitch and dealing with the trailer sway but would appreciate some answers by you guys.
What do you think about BAL frames. The frame build seams to use the same material but riveted.
I like BAL Travel Trailer frames. Not a big fan of their fifth wheel frames. That said, they use a much thinner gauge steel that is stamped/bent vs I beams for the main rails. They use similar boxed sections up front. They Huck bolt instead of weld. Much of that is likely due to their process of cutting and attaching frame sections due to their process.
I have been kicking tires for a while now, trying to decide what I want to buy, but I can't see myself buying anything with a lippert frame. I like alot of manufacture layouts and floor plans, but the frame issue is a big problem. I don't know what situation I might come in to while driving that will break the frame. One couple I saw got detoured, and the road was pretty rough and caused their frame to over stress and break. These frames need to be built to the condition of someone needing to pull out of traffic into a steep parking lot where they can't get out and unhook the weight distribution hitch safely. The frame should handle that situation if it arises.
Could you do a video comparing “ azdel “ to “ Luann “ ( spelling )
I’m curious as to where this discussion will lead
Maybe I am missing something, but... It seems to me that the failures have been at the welds (places where different sections of frame members are joined together). I do not see permanently bent/deformed/twisted frame members. If this is true, then thickness of the frame pieces is not the issue. Maybe the solution to the problems is better reinforcements at the places where the welds are. (additional plates or more overlap of the joining areas). Of course, quality of welds is also a critical factor.
I have seen, and had to repair both types of failures on my rvs over the years.
Atleast the A-Frame and suspension chamber..
Great demonstration. Every design has comprimises, the added weight reduces cargo capacity and may increase the total towed weight requiring a larger tow vehicle. The taller box section increases the surface available to weld other components adding strengh. In my opinion, the industry has gotten too deep into the safety tolerance. Is the frame supplier honestly stating the maximum allowable GVWR? Is the RV builder , building too close to that maximum GVWR? Is the consumer being careful not to overload the equipment? Who knew that changing the pinbox may result in added stress to an area already over-stressed? I was surprised how fast the weight increased, if the entire chassis was tubular and the taller or thicker material was used, the diference on the total weight would be substantial.
As long as it goes up to the warranty. That's how they are calculating the RVs.
stronger frame ,and a thicker axle tube for thr back end
How does a BAL Norco frame measure up for weight/strength?
If you add that heavier steel you not only add cost but weight. People will then complain about not being able to tow their small trailer with their small vehicle.
This is unpopular but if you don't overload your trailer the frame will rarely fail.
Gusset plates at critical areas is all that is needed. Just do the math and use physics. The critical frame stress issue is simply solved. Cheers.
No your thinking is wrong about this problem @ 0:19 we see the a frame is just tack on to the bottom of the trailer frame it not fully Incorporated into the frame of the trailer by the a frame passing through the front frame of the trailer and giving it that extra bracing and rigidity like you find on the extra heavy duty equipment trailers
Most luxury inside has to be riding on a good frame. So yeah sell me a better frame. Or you could be the fanciest trailer broke on the side of the road.
Just put a steering axle like on an old haw wagon. Less weight on tongue and no wdh needed. 😂
They need to use military grade aluminum or high strength low-alloy steel.
It is HSLA steel. 50Kpi
If what they are making is failing, then make them stronger.
Are they US Steel or China Steel?
US Steel only according to them
An A-Frame welded below the main frame and front bulkhead of the frame is just wrong on so many levels.
Completely disagree. Unless you are a structural or Mechanical PE, making this claim is COMPLETELY wrong.
InTech
that frame are needs to be 12 inch
Welding a heavier A frame to an already weak structure does nothing
Thicker frames may weigh more, but that weight keeps the trailer on the pavement, where it belongs.
Ok . Rv makers have gone stupid on plastic interiors. To the point of forgetting safety and a good long lasting rig ..
The man in the street has zero idea s of frame thickness overall , but note spacecraft/new horizons/ lux all have thicker frames and i have yet to hear of any problems with these makers, so conclusion is heavy = costs = longer life = full time living against what is called a weekend trailor and shorter life span, maybe save the money long term for better quality long term life span. customer priorty and his wallet on what he can afford to pay. The old adage you get what you pay for comes to mind.
give me more substance and less lipstick.
Leave it to Lippert to try to figure out a way to con people into thinking that lighter is just fine. If you were building a roll cage for a race car, would you cheap out on the safety roll cage to keep your weight down or would you find someplace else - ANY place else that you might be able to cut your weight. DUH!
There is no way any viewer could answer your question. A mechanical engineer with all the necessary data needs to design the frame to withstand the forces that will be placed on it during normal use including with a WDH. The options of you and your viewers are worthless.
I wouldn't agree. Also, there are plenty of mechanical and structural engineers that watch my channel.
You could make it stronger I would think if it was built with seamless tube instead of welded tube?