Simon and Linnea - this is your best video yet! Love the this/not that comparison and the bite-sized snippets of info. As someone who teaches online as a career and who's taken Air 101 multiple times, I find this to be an awesome explanation of the drop technique.
Excelkent video thanks. I've always explained it as picturing the bike continuing forward under you as you shift your hips back. It stops people pushing the bars.
This so did my feeling. Did a clinic where they did teach us to pre-load. I think I even pulled the bars a bit too much. Don't remember crashing, but I did and broke my clavicle (collarbone). Gonna stick with the hipshift (prefer that one any way)
Great to see why certain techniques are better than others rather than just being told "just do it like this". When the reasons are known then this helps to achieve the technique & also removes any niggling doubts that may hinder commitment to progress. Thanks.
Many people learn quickly with monkey see, monkey do if the lead monkey has good technique. But the follow monkey still misses the whys and whats, because all he sees are end resuts which he can try to emulate. Follow monkeys born with super-bonus genetic gifts might have enought carryover athletics to figure out the whys and whats by analogy from other sports experiences, but that's a bit rare. Good coaches help bridge that gap that 99.8% of us need help with.
Thanks for putting out these vids! You guys have the best MTB technique videos out there. I am a former professional coach in another sport and have coached numerous national youth champions (not in MTB). You guys are really on point with your explanations and presentation. I share your vids with my son who is a budding MTB DH racer. Thank you!
Wow this comment means so much to us! We are so happy to read this and hear that the videos are effective, esp to someone who really understands coaching. Best of luck to your son in racing too!
Nice video. I would like to see how to do drops correctly on steep terrain . . . so, where the terrain is steep approaching the drop and is also steep after the drop. Cheers guys for all your efforts with this channel.
In this instance the rider needs to become perpendicular to the drop they are on in order to shift the hips rearward effectively. Perhaps we'll do something on this! Thanks. -Simon
@@Fluidride I was behind Cory LeClerc on a trail in SW UT that had such a feature, he did this tiny little up hop, oriented the bike and his hips as you described, Simon, and disappeared smoothly away. I'd ridden that trail with others before, everyone pretty much stopped and ugly-rolled or ugly-dropped it. Probably a 5 foot drop down, not quite vertical, to a reasonable transition but a need to stay right due to exposure on the left.
I really like the explanation of the why and why not for the subtle technique differences. I'd love to see a side-by-side comparison of the CNF vs. other forms to better visualize where they differ. I struggle to see the differences before the landing between the CNF and the bar push for example. Great video though. I always look forward to these.
If I understand Simon correctly, the big difference you will feel in a hip shift back is the light pressure in your fingers holding onto the bars as your body moves down and back just before takeoff. This is a different sensation than pressure against the palms when you push the bars forward. Instead, that light pressure in the fingers is what helps pull the bike back under you at landing. I try to be conscious of where the pressure is in my hands -- more in the fingers holding onto the bars, not pushing with the palms unless it's a situation where I need to muscle through the drop for safety.
@@mistatopo8337 Thanks for explaining it so clearly. I have actually taken the Fluidride Air 101 class from Simon twice and one of the things he does to demonstrate using light pressure in the fingers is that he rides the biggest drop in the practice area with just his fingers draped over the grips and doesn't touch the bike with his thumbs. I understand the technique of CNF fairly well. I'm interested in seeing a side-by-side view of the same rider using CNF and other forms on the same drop. I'd love to see an overlay of different methods to track the path that the rider's body and the bike take and how they differ. Watching one video after another makes it much more difficult to pick out the little details like where the body is centered, how the legs move to prepare or how long the arms are straight.
@@nrmrvrk Very cool you took classes with Simon! And agree a side by side with stop action explaining the differences would be helpful, great suggestion! Even as an experienced rider, I really appreciate these Fluidride videos covering the fundamentals that give us confidence to do bigger/more challenging stuff.
What an interesting video! Subconsciously I used hip move to makes drop easier and you are first person on YT who explain this in the same way how I see it :D I was really curious is this something wrong with me that I'm doing drops in another way than some of my friends :) Now I can show them, that I'm not the only one with this technique :D
This is great! Thx for dissecting the movement. Having that information about the pressure on fingers when hip shifting vs palm/hand when pushing the bars made me finally understand how this works!
Anytime is a good time to think about and discuss form and control, great as refresher videos right here! I admit I do tend to over pop drops quite a lot of the time, even when the situation does not really call for it and ground control suffers a bit on the landing. Great video again you two! Freaking love these, you two have that natural chemistry thing going pretty good :)
Another approach I frequently use is to leave the drop centered and push the front wheel down as soon as it leaves the takeoff. This lands the front wheel on the ground super quickly and feels really smooth to get both wheels down quickly and get ready for what's next. Obviously there's a height limit here before OTB risk becomes a concern but on the drops demonstrated here I think it's very doable
We do teach an offshoot of Correct Basic Form to get back on the ground quickly which is similar to what I think you are describing. We'll try to get you guys some content on that as we continue filming. -Simon
@@b.w.1704 It requires good bike awareness -- so you don't snag your chainring, for example. That would be very ugly flying W time. I'm pretty sure that's why Simon says above that it's a more advanced/refined thing. Like most things it's better to go in baby steps.
just excellent, many talk about technique without including consequences. Understanding that part helps me to visualize and focus on the correct technique.
Excellent video. But what will happen if a rider pushes bars after staying low and weight centered before drop, not moving knees forward? The video did not considered this case and assumes that he/she moves his weight forward and backward. I wonder what to expect if he/she does not and move the bike instead.
The arms will extend and if the drop is big enough, the rider will be pulled forward. This technique works on small drops but gets dangerous on larger ones. I hope this helps! -Simon
Seems like with the handlebar push, you're using your arms to push the bike forward out of your hands, whereas with the correct technique, you're using the feet and hips to push the bike into your hands? Something you said (kind of as a throwaway) in another video was "knees to heels." I feel like that was a super-helpful shorthand.
The technique he uses at 6:49 is the easiest i think. As you approach the drop, lower your chest by bending your arms a bit, but at the same time, keep your legs tall with only a slight bend. Then as you go of the edge, extend your arms and bend your knees to absorb the edge. This a) matches your upper body to the slope of the landing b) minimizes the height of the drop c) keeps your weight over the pedals d) allows the bike to rotate a bit forward as you go off the edge (this is what the bike wants to do) and this is fine because you can just match the bike to the slope of the landing while you're in the air.
Interesting that he used a completely different technique than the one he was advocating :) it's probably the safer way to do it for beginners. With the manual technique, we have to stabilize the bike while in the air to match the slope, whereas the downward push lets the bike rotate just enough while it drops.
@@simonr7097 agree. the forward push seems best for beginners. You don't need perfect timing, just medium speed and a downward push. ideal for this type of flat, wooden ladder take-off.
After reviewing Cathro’s advocacy of the push as the most fundamental drop technique, I think his arguments make more sense. You have more control over the angle of the bike, can better compensate for a variety of speeds, and if you misjudge, you have a lesser chance of going otb. You’re giving you bike less time to hang up, more specifically guide it to match the angle of the landing, and the technique has you minimizing the path of your lower body toward the edge of the drop. I think you’ve done a really good job highlighting some of the differences between the push and the shift, and for sure I think it the shift is going to be the easier movement to teach, but I think it would be better to say “this is why we teach this method as our primary” rather than declaring it the most correct technique.
Have to agree with you completely. Sure the hip shift is fine for these controlled drops, but when you are riding trails with natural drops where the landing could be at any angle and height you need a technique that allow you to control the direction of the bike relative to the landing. By pushing the bike parallel to the landing surface means you can hit the drop with much more speed and control. Also essential with the push is to unweight the rear trye as it hits the lip so you don't rotate forward.
What I think Ben missed to explain (or at least not directly) is how you come back from a very rearward body position to a centered one, ready to absorb the landing. I think the best technique is a combination of both: hips shifting forward when approaching the drop (so with pushing you end up more centered) + pushing the handlebars and also the pedals (for hips shifting) on the drop. Simon misses to consider that in order to shift your hips rearward you need to push against something (handlebars or pedals). It's just physics, there is no action without reaction.
Yes, it's the difference between pushing with just the arms or legs pushing forward through the cranks. The second is more powerful, gets you into a squash (because your hips dropped to let you push forward through the cranks) and makes sure you're pushing forward and not down (which a clumsy bar push alone might do if you are in a high body position). Heavy feet, light hands.
@@dannybrizzi9394 You don't have to push the bike to match the landing. You can do that with your feet. I think you may be interpreting a lack of strong pull on the handlebar, as a push. Also there's a big difference between pushing the bike ahead of you, and pressing the bike down into the earth. Extending from a compressed position is not an assertive push, it's just an extension. I don't recall Cathro emphasizing a strong push forward and if you interpreted him that way either I missed something, or you misunderstood him. One of us heard him wrong, I suppose.
Great video that I could've used 20 yrs ago! I made many of the mistakes shown here, back then, because I was eager to do things without first mastering a good base of skills. Simon, I liked that bit around 7:00 where you show that being well-balanced at touchdown lets you carry the momentum, and load the suspension properly, to boost out of that little right-hand turn. If you were coming in witih enough speed, and the transition to flat was brief and ugly enough, would you pre-hop the end of the ramp to get in early on the downslope?
I think there is a very subtle difference between pushing the bar forward and just moving the bar forward which is really just shifting the hips but not as aggressive as actually pushing bar forward. I move the bar forward on even the biggest drops that I can do which can vary between 10 to 15 feet down and it has never failed me. There is probably something I might be doing that I can't see but it seems to work.
I’m sure you move your hips over the rear axle without even thinking about it. Some beginners might just shove the handlebars forward creating a diving front wheel.
I think of it this way: you're already moving with the bike, in the more or less proper direction (down-hill, down-trail). So why push the bike ahead? Is it a photo finish? When you push the bar forward consciously you're leaving your body behind the BB.
at 6:49 what is the name for this drop technique? We have names like pre load, pull, push and roll a drop (not possible on these features and not shown here). The "not that technique"?
Ah Ha - I've been pushing the bike forward off drops for years, - now I know why I lose control upon landing. I've tried it the proper way and wow such a different result for such a subtle change. Now I just need to get rid of the bad habit ... great video, thanks
Jim - we're so happy to hear it's making a difference! This is definitely a misunderstanding in the riding community since the techniques look so similar at face value. Thanks for watching the video too! -Linnea
Ikr.. im cofused too, few days ago i tried tehchnique Ben shows on small drop (im learning) and it felt much better to do it by pushing rather than shifting my body rearward
I thought the main difference between pushing and hips shifting is what you do right before (in pushing you remain in the center position, while in hips shifting you move your hips forward, hence the shifting). But then at 4:57, where you also show hips moving forward, it's confusing, as it then becomes hips shifting. It can be debatable how you achieve the hips shifting, by pushing in the handlebars or in the pedals, but I think correct would be a combination of both. At 5:11 you just exaggerate the movement so it looks different (not really fair), but I don't think it actually is. Also in hips shifting (1:21) you can exaggerate the shifting movement and then come the risks you mentioned at the pushing technique.
The shift is always forward to rearward. That is the shift. I shift forward, then a rearward shift. Sorry for any confusion! At 5:11 I'm not exaggerating at all - something I stay away from in my demos. The only reason that looks exaggerated is that it must have been a slower drop - requiring more shifting of the hips. While hips shift rearward in a similar way when you push the bars forward, the pressure would be on the opposite side of the handlebar. We want the pressure in the front side of the bars (rearward shift with no push) as that brings the bike very naturally back underneath the rider. I hope this helps! -Simon
@@Fluidride You cannot shift your hips rearward if you don't push against something. It is physics: action and reaction. And as I said, also the "hips shifting" you can over do it and you end up with the same problems as with "pushing". That is why I think you are not doing a fair comparison.
I ride a lot of natural terrain where I live and most of our drops are to flat. What's the best technique for this? Is landing both wheels at the same time more appropriate for this scenario? These types of drops are never discussed.
Surprisingly it can often create a softer landing to land slightly front wheel first on flatter landings. You don't want to be 'nose heavy' but a slight front wheel first landing will get the front tire rolling before the rear wheel contacts. This lessens deceleration, which creates a smoother feeling upon landing. We experience impact in the form of feeling deceleration, so by lessening this force we get a smoother feeling to the landing. We used to have one spot like this on a downhill track and I always opted for a slightly front wheel first touch down to smooth it out. -Simon
If you have the space after the drop, "dropping the landing gear" (pulling the bars toward you in the air to make the rear wheel land first) is even more effective at softening the landing, because you gradually absorb the impact as your arms extend to allow the front wheel to come down. This can go badly, however, if you're not landing flat!
Very clear and convincing discussion. I wish I had seen the vid before I faceplanted on a knarly drop 3 months ago and totally smashed my left shoulder. Oh well, live and learn. 🤷♂️🤣
@@Fluidride Yes, feeling much better now, thanks a lot. I hurt my right shoulder years ago in a similar way playing lacrosse. In both cases full recovery was a question of months, not weeks. The shoulder demands respect! Happy trails
Nice tips! I am not sure I've got this hip shift / push bars forward difference. The outcome and posture on the bike looks identical for me. Is the difference basically only in that hip shift mean pushing bike forward with feet instead of pushing it forward with hands?
I did not get the difference either between hip shift vs. Bar push. An explanation of how they feel would really help. The explanation of bar push is to push on the bars - makes perfect sense. Moving the hips back seems to be accomplished by pushing the bar forward. I will need to try both and see if my body figures it out, your comment I think is on the right path, to think about your feet, not your hands.
5:22 shows some difference. I think the idea is the hips are driving the motion, so the hands can be “softer” on the bars (and less likely to have different pressure I guess?). I tend to push so will try this hip shift.
I took lessons and learned the bar push (but a circular bar push like rowing on a Viking ship) but I think it was a good mindset change because I was doing the hip shift backward in part because I was being passive and in part because I was using my legs too much. I wasn't really doing it well, in other words. Thinking about placing the bike in front was more active and required more courage I guess, so it forced me to commit better. I guess what I'm saying is that the bar push and hip shift look alike, but they feel really different and can lead to different results for different people.
Picture the bike moving under you as you shift your hips back vs accelerating the bike away from you with your hands. One drives the bike fwd the other doesn't.
On drops that you can hit at trail speed I get the rear hip shift, but slow speed drops I feel like you have to shove the bike forward to keep the front wheel level no?
Yeah, there is a limit to how slowly one can go with this technique. I very skilled rider can pull it off at a few miles an hour, but when going really slowly, sometimes we have to just push the bars. We do teach that for 'oh crap' moments for sure. -Simon
Over the years, I've found that teaching drop "pushing forward" or "pulling the hips back" really depends on the riders habits and biomechanics. But most often than not (as a coach, YMMV), the "pushing forward" method was, for me, the most successful way to get students in a safe spot for drops progression. I think that the way good positioning is theached will have a lot to do in how drops (and jumps) will/should be teached! Not a critic by any means, the breakdown is excellent. But for the viewers, I think it's good to remember to keep an open mind when exploring these techniques. "Feel" is a really subjective matter. 😉
I agree - both describe the same position, but psychologically doing something forward toward where a rider should be focusing is more confidence-inspiring than thinking about moving back from an obstacle (which is pretty dang close to teaching hesitation). It also reflects the physics of the situation, in that the (light) bike moves forward of the center of mass of bike+rider a lot more than the rider moves back from that center of mass. And most definitely push forward with the feet from dropped hips!
amazing！Last month I almost fell on a huge drop, and I watched the video repeatedly to confirm that I was only pushing the bar forward and not moving my body backward. Now I'm more sure it's a posture issue.😂
More aggressive push (mostly from the legs). You can practice this just going off a curb...it's harder to land both wheels at the same time the slower you roll.
No. The difference being that you are not actually breaking the horizontal plane - the front wheel is not lifting, just being temporarily 'motivated' or lightened. With a manual you are not only breaking the horizontal plan and lifting the wheel, but also trying to hold it, so while there are similarities in the movement, it's not a manual. I hope this explanation helps! -Simon
If there is something to hang the rider up like a root on takeoff etc, then we might slow down and use pre-load since the root would act as a lip which could cause issues with drop technique. There are just SO many possible outcomes on trails with drops, it's hard to give a one and done explanation of rough drops. We'll keep our eyes out for something to demonstrate with though. Thanks Tony! -Simon
Hands down the best drop technique video on the UA-cam’s.
Simon and Linnea - this is your best video yet! Love the this/not that comparison and the bite-sized snippets of info. As someone who teaches online as a career and who's taken Air 101 multiple times, I find this to be an awesome explanation of the drop technique.
I’ve watched so many of these types a videos, nobody explains technique as good as Simon Lawton. Thank you.
Thanks for watching!!
Excelkent video thanks. I've always explained it as picturing the bike continuing forward under you as you shift your hips back. It stops people pushing the bars.
I like that description. Thanks! -Simon
This so did my feeling. Did a clinic where they did teach us to pre-load.
I think I even pulled the bars a bit too much. Don't remember crashing, but I did and broke my clavicle (collarbone). Gonna stick with the hipshift (prefer that one any way)
Great to see why certain techniques are better than others rather than just being told "just do it like this". When the reasons are known then this helps to achieve the technique & also removes any niggling doubts that may hinder commitment to progress. Thanks.
Many people learn quickly with monkey see, monkey do if the lead monkey has good technique. But the follow monkey still misses the whys and whats, because all he sees are end resuts which he can try to emulate. Follow monkeys born with super-bonus genetic gifts might have enought carryover athletics to figure out the whys and whats by analogy from other sports experiences, but that's a bit rare. Good coaches help bridge that gap that 99.8% of us need help with.
Thanks for putting out these vids! You guys have the best MTB technique videos out there. I am a former professional coach in another sport and have coached numerous national youth champions (not in MTB). You guys are really on point with your explanations and presentation. I share your vids with my son who is a budding MTB DH racer. Thank you!
Wow this comment means so much to us! We are so happy to read this and hear that the videos are effective, esp to someone who really understands coaching. Best of luck to your son in racing too!
The format of the messaging and demonstrations is awesome here
Best Drop video I have seen! (And I have seen a lot) now I understand why I am having issues as I tend to push the bike forward.
Really comprehensive review of the drop technique. Looking forward to other videos in this series!
Best breakdown of mtb techniques on the internet.
Nice video. I would like to see how to do drops correctly on steep terrain . . . so, where the terrain is steep approaching the drop and is also steep after the drop.
Cheers guys for all your efforts with this channel.
In this instance the rider needs to become perpendicular to the drop they are on in order to shift the hips rearward effectively. Perhaps we'll do something on this! Thanks. -Simon
@@Fluidride Cheers Simon. Yes, a video on this would be great! Your videos are excellent by the way!
@@Fluidride Do you mean perpendicular to the slope of the landing?
@@Fluidride I was behind Cory LeClerc on a trail in SW UT that had such a feature, he did this tiny little up hop, oriented the bike and his hips as you described, Simon, and disappeared smoothly away. I'd ridden that trail with others before, everyone pretty much stopped and ugly-rolled or ugly-dropped it. Probably a 5 foot drop down, not quite vertical, to a reasonable transition but a need to stay right due to exposure on the left.
A real goldmine of in-depth explanation. Great to see your riding coming on. Cheers both for putting this out there - it’s helping me🤘🏻
Best drop technique video out there.
Best explanation of drops. Well done
I really like the explanation of the why and why not for the subtle technique differences. I'd love to see a side-by-side comparison of the CNF vs. other forms to better visualize where they differ. I struggle to see the differences before the landing between the CNF and the bar push for example. Great video though. I always look forward to these.
If I understand Simon correctly, the big difference you will feel in a hip shift back is the light pressure in your fingers holding onto the bars as your body moves down and back just before takeoff. This is a different sensation than pressure against the palms when you push the bars forward. Instead, that light pressure in the fingers is what helps pull the bike back under you at landing. I try to be conscious of where the pressure is in my hands -- more in the fingers holding onto the bars, not pushing with the palms unless it's a situation where I need to muscle through the drop for safety.
@@mistatopo8337 Thanks for explaining it so clearly. I have actually taken the Fluidride Air 101 class from Simon twice and one of the things he does to demonstrate using light pressure in the fingers is that he rides the biggest drop in the practice area with just his fingers draped over the grips and doesn't touch the bike with his thumbs.
I understand the technique of CNF fairly well. I'm interested in seeing a side-by-side view of the same rider using CNF and other forms on the same drop. I'd love to see an overlay of different methods to track the path that the rider's body and the bike take and how they differ. Watching one video after another makes it much more difficult to pick out the little details like where the body is centered, how the legs move to prepare or how long the arms are straight.
@@nrmrvrk Very cool you took classes with Simon! And agree a side by side with stop action explaining the differences would be helpful, great suggestion! Even as an experienced rider, I really appreciate these Fluidride videos covering the fundamentals that give us confidence to do bigger/more challenging stuff.
What an interesting video! Subconsciously I used hip move to makes drop easier and you are first person on YT who explain this in the same way how I see it :D I was really curious is this something wrong with me that I'm doing drops in another way than some of my friends :) Now I can show them, that I'm not the only one with this technique :D
This is great! Thx for dissecting the movement. Having that information about the pressure on fingers when hip shifting vs palm/hand when pushing the bars made me finally understand how this works!
Anytime is a good time to think about and discuss form and control, great as refresher videos right here! I admit I do tend to over pop drops quite a lot of the time, even when the situation does not really call for it and ground control suffers a bit on the landing.
Great video again you two! Freaking love these, you two have that natural chemistry thing going pretty good :)
Thanks Tommy! -Simon
your demonstration has been very helpful. I have done all of the above and never truly understood the correct way. Thanks
Thanks John! -Simon
I’ve learned I bit more each time , even though I’ve watched videos over and over
Thx for your time
Another approach I frequently use is to leave the drop centered and push the front wheel down as soon as it leaves the takeoff. This lands the front wheel on the ground super quickly and feels really smooth to get both wheels down quickly and get ready for what's next. Obviously there's a height limit here before OTB risk becomes a concern but on the drops demonstrated here I think it's very doable
We do teach an offshoot of Correct Basic Form to get back on the ground quickly which is similar to what I think you are describing. We'll try to get you guys some content on that as we continue filming. -Simon
Richie Drew does it in his drop video, but it looks a bit unsafer to me.
@@b.w.1704 It requires good bike awareness -- so you don't snag your chainring, for example. That would be very ugly flying W time. I'm pretty sure that's why Simon says above that it's a more advanced/refined thing. Like most things it's better to go in baby steps.
Great video! I watched this a while back and it didn't click, with more experience it makes all the sense in the world. Quality as always from yall
Thanks for clicking Scott! Be sure to click to subscribe if you haven't already! -Simon
just excellent, many talk about technique without including consequences. Understanding that part helps me to visualize and focus on the correct technique.
Thanks so much for this awesome feedback, John! So happy you liked it
Excellent video. But what will happen if a rider pushes bars after staying low and weight centered before drop, not moving knees forward? The video did not considered this case and assumes that he/she moves his weight forward and backward. I wonder what to expect if he/she does not and move the bike instead.
The arms will extend and if the drop is big enough, the rider will be pulled forward. This technique works on small drops but gets dangerous on larger ones. I hope this helps! -Simon
Finally well decription of all options and reasons behind. Thanks
Thank you for watching - and for this note!
Seems like with the handlebar push, you're using your arms to push the bike forward out of your hands, whereas with the correct technique, you're using the feet and hips to push the bike into your hands?
Something you said (kind of as a throwaway) in another video was "knees to heels." I feel like that was a super-helpful shorthand.
Exactly. You have this right. Thanks! -Simon
The technique he uses at 6:49 is the easiest i think. As you approach the drop, lower your chest by bending your arms a bit, but at the same time, keep your legs tall with only a slight bend. Then as you go of the edge, extend your arms and bend your knees to absorb the edge. This a) matches your upper body to the slope of the landing b) minimizes the height of the drop c) keeps your weight over the pedals d) allows the bike to rotate a bit forward as you go off the edge (this is what the bike wants to do) and this is fine because you can just match the bike to the slope of the landing while you're in the air.
Interesting that he used a completely different technique than the one he was advocating :) it's probably the safer way to do it for beginners. With the manual technique, we have to stabilize the bike while in the air to match the slope, whereas the downward push lets the bike rotate just enough while it drops.
@@simonr7097 agree. the forward push seems best for beginners. You don't need perfect timing, just medium speed and a downward push. ideal for this type of flat, wooden ladder take-off.
@@Paul-oe9sy I probably shouldn't have described it as "downward push" though, you want to push forward or at the angle of the landing.
After reviewing Cathro’s advocacy of the push as the most fundamental drop technique, I think his arguments make more sense. You have more control over the angle of the bike, can better compensate for a variety of speeds, and if you misjudge, you have a lesser chance of going otb. You’re giving you bike less time to hang up, more specifically guide it to match the angle of the landing, and the technique has you minimizing the path of your lower body toward the edge of the drop.
I think you’ve done a really good job highlighting some of the differences between the push and the shift, and for sure I think it the shift is going to be the easier movement to teach, but I think it would be better to say “this is why we teach this method as our primary” rather than declaring it the most correct technique.
Have to agree with you completely. Sure the hip shift is fine for these controlled drops, but when you are riding trails with natural drops where the landing could be at any angle and height you need a technique that allow you to control the direction of the bike relative to the landing. By pushing the bike parallel to the landing surface means you can hit the drop with much more speed and control. Also essential with the push is to unweight the rear trye as it hits the lip so you don't rotate forward.
What I think Ben missed to explain (or at least not directly) is how you come back from a very rearward body position to a centered one, ready to absorb the landing. I think the best technique is a combination of both: hips shifting forward when approaching the drop (so with pushing you end up more centered) + pushing the handlebars and also the pedals (for hips shifting) on the drop. Simon misses to consider that in order to shift your hips rearward you need to push against something (handlebars or pedals). It's just physics, there is no action without reaction.
Yes, it's the difference between pushing with just the arms or legs pushing forward through the cranks. The second is more powerful, gets you into a squash (because your hips dropped to let you push forward through the cranks) and makes sure you're pushing forward and not down (which a clumsy bar push alone might do if you are in a high body position). Heavy feet, light hands.
@@dannybrizzi9394 You don't have to push the bike to match the landing. You can do that with your feet. I think you may be interpreting a lack of strong pull on the handlebar, as a push.
Also there's a big difference between pushing the bike ahead of you, and pressing the bike down into the earth. Extending from a compressed position is not an assertive push, it's just an extension.
I don't recall Cathro emphasizing a strong push forward and if you interpreted him that way either I missed something, or you misunderstood him. One of us heard him wrong, I suppose.
Great video that I could've used 20 yrs ago! I made many of the mistakes shown here, back then, because I was eager to do things without first mastering a good base of skills.
Simon, I liked that bit around 7:00 where you show that being well-balanced at touchdown lets you carry the momentum, and load the suspension properly, to boost out of that little right-hand turn.
If you were coming in witih enough speed, and the transition to flat was brief and ugly enough, would you pre-hop the end of the ramp to get in early on the downslope?
Yeah, preload for sure if you needed to go a bit deeper to get to a smooth transition. Thanks for chiming in Sean! -Simon
I think there is a very subtle difference between pushing the bar forward and just moving the bar forward which is really just shifting the hips but not as aggressive as actually pushing bar forward. I move the bar forward on even the biggest drops that I can do which can vary between 10 to 15 feet down and it has never failed me. There is probably something I might be doing that I can't see but it seems to work.
I’m sure you move your hips over the rear axle without even thinking about it. Some beginners might just shove the handlebars forward creating a diving front wheel.
You're probably pushing the bike forward more with your legs through the cranks rather than with your arms, which has all sorts of benefits.
I think of it this way: you're already moving with the bike, in the more or less proper direction (down-hill, down-trail). So why push the bike ahead? Is it a photo finish?
When you push the bar forward consciously you're leaving your body behind the BB.
Nice breakdown. I’d like to see a more detailed breakdown of the “racer-style” drop that you went over briefly in another video.
Thanks. Perhaps we'll do some more on that!
Which other video is this in ?
Really enjoyed the format of this video
Nicely done!!
You guys did a great job on this!!
Best video on drop technique on You Tube. Thanks!
Yep always good advice and tips on this channel. 👍
Best Channel.....true learning!
I used to preload off drops, but I found the hip shift to have a much smoother landing.
Yeah, that's really the big benefit with this approach. -Simon
This was an awesome explanation! Never realized that pushing forward changes where pressure is on the bars, and body position for landing! -Danilu
Hi Danilu - we're so happy this resonated with you! It's a subtle but it does make a difference 🤪 -Linnea
Good stuff. Thanks again!
Really Cool video here folks. Great learning tool
Fantastic.
Thank you both.
Good and precise as always.
This is a *really* good video to watch if you've seen a bunch of other vids on the subject.
So stoked to hear this!
at 6:49 what is the name for this drop technique? We have names like pre load, pull, push and roll a drop (not possible on these features and not shown here). The "not that technique"?
In another video (on another chain) Simon teaches similar and called it “racer style”
Ah Ha - I've been pushing the bike forward off drops for years, - now I know why I lose control upon landing. I've tried it the proper way and wow such a different result for such a subtle change. Now I just need to get rid of the bad habit ... great video, thanks
Jim - we're so happy to hear it's making a difference! This is definitely a misunderstanding in the riding community since the techniques look so similar at face value. Thanks for watching the video too! -Linnea
Land front wheel first, huh? Nice. I'll have to try that.
Great video, really like the content on this channel, thanks!
Well done
Best video, How tall is he and what bike and size?
thanks.
I'm 6'4" and ride an XL Evil Offering. Great bike! -Simon
Ben Cathro teaches to push instead of any of these techniques in his Pinkbike How To series, I’m confused now :/
Ikr.. im cofused too, few days ago i tried tehchnique Ben shows on small drop (im learning) and it felt much better to do it by pushing rather than shifting my body rearward
Cathro all the way
I thought the main difference between pushing and hips shifting is what you do right before (in pushing you remain in the center position, while in hips shifting you move your hips forward, hence the shifting). But then at 4:57, where you also show hips moving forward, it's confusing, as it then becomes hips shifting. It can be debatable how you achieve the hips shifting, by pushing in the handlebars or in the pedals, but I think correct would be a combination of both. At 5:11 you just exaggerate the movement so it looks different (not really fair), but I don't think it actually is. Also in hips shifting (1:21) you can exaggerate the shifting movement and then come the risks you mentioned at the pushing technique.
The shift is always forward to rearward. That is the shift. I shift forward, then a rearward shift. Sorry for any confusion! At 5:11 I'm not exaggerating at all - something I stay away from in my demos. The only reason that looks exaggerated is that it must have been a slower drop - requiring more shifting of the hips. While hips shift rearward in a similar way when you push the bars forward, the pressure would be on the opposite side of the handlebar. We want the pressure in the front side of the bars (rearward shift with no push) as that brings the bike very naturally back underneath the rider. I hope this helps! -Simon
@@Fluidride You cannot shift your hips rearward if you don't push against something. It is physics: action and reaction. And as I said, also the "hips shifting" you can over do it and you end up with the same problems as with "pushing". That is why I think you are not doing a fair comparison.
I ride a lot of natural terrain where I live and most of our drops are to flat. What's the best technique for this? Is landing both wheels at the same time more appropriate for this scenario? These types of drops are never discussed.
Surprisingly it can often create a softer landing to land slightly front wheel first on flatter landings. You don't want to be 'nose heavy' but a slight front wheel first landing will get the front tire rolling before the rear wheel contacts. This lessens deceleration, which creates a smoother feeling upon landing. We experience impact in the form of feeling deceleration, so by lessening this force we get a smoother feeling to the landing. We used to have one spot like this on a downhill track and I always opted for a slightly front wheel first touch down to smooth it out. -Simon
@@Fluidride Thanks for the response.
If you have the space after the drop, "dropping the landing gear" (pulling the bars toward you in the air to make the rear wheel land first) is even more effective at softening the landing, because you gradually absorb the impact as your arms extend to allow the front wheel to come down. This can go badly, however, if you're not landing flat!
Very clear and convincing discussion. I wish I had seen the vid before I faceplanted on a knarly drop 3 months ago and totally smashed my left shoulder. Oh well, live and learn. 🤷♂️🤣
Oh no!! I hope you are starting to feel better now! It's impossible to learn without a crash here and there anyway 🤪 -Linnea
@@Fluidride Yes, feeling much better now, thanks a lot. I hurt my right shoulder years ago in a similar way playing lacrosse. In both cases full recovery was a question of months, not weeks. The shoulder demands respect! Happy trails
Nice tips! I am not sure I've got this hip shift / push bars forward difference. The outcome and posture on the bike looks identical for me. Is the difference basically only in that hip shift mean pushing bike forward with feet instead of pushing it forward with hands?
I did not get the difference either between hip shift vs. Bar push. An explanation of how they feel would really help. The explanation of bar push is to push on the bars - makes perfect sense. Moving the hips back seems to be accomplished by pushing the bar forward. I will need to try both and see if my body figures it out, your comment I think is on the right path, to think about your feet, not your hands.
5:22 shows some difference. I think the idea is the hips are driving the motion, so the hands can be “softer” on the bars (and less likely to have different pressure I guess?). I tend to push so will try this hip shift.
I took lessons and learned the bar push (but a circular bar push like rowing on a Viking ship) but I think it was a good mindset change because I was doing the hip shift backward in part because I was being passive and in part because I was using my legs too much. I wasn't really doing it well, in other words. Thinking about placing the bike in front was more active and required more courage I guess, so it forced me to commit better. I guess what I'm saying is that the bar push and hip shift look alike, but they feel really different and can lead to different results for different people.
Thought it was well explained in the video
Picture the bike moving under you as you shift your hips back vs accelerating the bike away from you with your hands. One drives the bike fwd the other doesn't.
Fantastic video
Kids at Duthie gonna send drops. When you're a hamma, the world is a nail. ;-)
Excellent video , thanks -)
Thanks Stephen!
On drops that you can hit at trail speed I get the rear hip shift, but slow speed drops I feel like you have to shove the bike forward to keep the front wheel level no?
Yeah, there is a limit to how slowly one can go with this technique. I very skilled rider can pull it off at a few miles an hour, but when going really slowly, sometimes we have to just push the bars. We do teach that for 'oh crap' moments for sure. -Simon
Over the years, I've found that teaching drop "pushing forward" or "pulling the hips back" really depends on the riders habits and biomechanics. But most often than not (as a coach, YMMV), the "pushing forward" method was, for me, the most successful way to get students in a safe spot for drops progression. I think that the way good positioning is theached will have a lot to do in how drops (and jumps) will/should be teached! Not a critic by any means, the breakdown is excellent. But for the viewers, I think it's good to remember to keep an open mind when exploring these techniques. "Feel" is a really subjective matter. 😉
I agree - both describe the same position, but psychologically doing something forward toward where a rider should be focusing is more confidence-inspiring than thinking about moving back from an obstacle (which is pretty dang close to teaching hesitation). It also reflects the physics of the situation, in that the (light) bike moves forward of the center of mass of bike+rider a lot more than the rider moves back from that center of mass. And most definitely push forward with the feet from dropped hips!
You mean taught, not teached.
thanks for that, english isn't my 1st language@@45graham45
amazing！Last month I almost fell on a huge drop, and I watched the video repeatedly to confirm that I was only pushing the bar forward and not moving my body backward. Now I'm more sure it's a posture issue.😂
now This is my favorite series of videos!
wish i watched this when it premiered lol, broke my collar bone oct 2nd on a drop, still healing nov 15
Oh gosh I'm so bummed to hear this. It's just so easy to do 😬. Sending you our best wishes for a fast and full recovery !-Linnea
Very clear, as usual. Thanks
What if there is not enough speed as you are coming from rock garden to the boulder drop?
Like they said then you have to push (or Bunny Hop)
More aggressive push (mostly from the legs). You can practice this just going off a curb...it's harder to land both wheels at the same time the slower you roll.
Great info i learned a lot
Thanks so much for watching! -Linnea
so we should do a manual for drops ?
No. The difference being that you are not actually breaking the horizontal plane - the front wheel is not lifting, just being temporarily 'motivated' or lightened. With a manual you are not only breaking the horizontal plan and lifting the wheel, but also trying to hold it, so while there are similarities in the movement, it's not a manual. I hope this explanation helps! -Simon
Awesome
So you don't land head first? 🤔 😅
Please show it on a narly drop with a rough takeoff where you can get hung up. No one ever shows how to do this properly.
If there is something to hang the rider up like a root on takeoff etc, then we might slow down and use pre-load since the root would act as a lip which could cause issues with drop technique. There are just SO many possible outcomes on trails with drops, it's hard to give a one and done explanation of rough drops. We'll keep our eyes out for something to demonstrate with though. Thanks Tony! -Simon
Everything depends on situation - thats all.
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