A lot of your viewers are talking about you Thomas, yesterday in APs and David woods stream , somebody did a superchat about you. We are sharing your content everywhere. Keep up the good work. God bless
I have heard this before. I’m leaning towards this beginning. This completely destroyed the foundation of Islam. I love it. Thanks for your efforts and teaching.
You have completely misunderstood! He has not "completely destroyed" anything. As Thomas says, he has not produced the "smoking gun." Instead he has put forward a number of hypotheses and stated which he thinks are most likely to be correct. Unfortunately, that's not how religion and faith work. They prefer to have ONE truth, and everything else is lies from the devil. That's the great difficulty of the academic study of religion: many scholars are on their knees, not at their desks.
@@faithlesshound5621 lies from the devil you say. True. Allah replacing Jesus with an innocent man on the cross and making it appear as Jesus was crusified is deceit. Thank you.
This is a great series of lectures. You have created what amounts to a short academic course on the topic, and must have been a big undertaking. I applaud your effort, and thank you for producing these. I neednto work out who I know whom I can share these with.
@jazzymiles miles The pagan is you. The black stone is just one of your idols. Look at the masses of apostates. Game over for islam. Whoever is being deceived now, will turn around quicker than when they came. A lie remains a lie no matter who believes it!!!
@@theelder5505 Do you know every year when Muslims go on a pilgrimage to Mecca, the MOON god go and sits right under the Black stone in her most dangerous form? ?
According to authentic Muslim sources, Muhammad had as part of his household Salman the Persian. Brought up as a Zoroastrian, converted to Christianity and then Islam. In fact Byzantine Emperor Leo the Isaurian wrote in a letter to Omar II that he knew the Qur'an is the work of Salman the Persian and Abu Taurab, (Father of Dust), Ali b. Abu Talib, Muhammad's cousin and son-in-law. Job done.
@@samspade225 it's written more than one hundred year later to suit the need of abassid ruler. Moreover, muslims sources usually lied. Coins and inscriptions don't lie.
@@samspade225 You need to read the earliest authentic Muslim biography of Muhammad, Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah dictated to his pupils in Baghdad after a lifetime of research and interviews with the sons and grandsons of the Prophet and his companions. His Life of Muhammad in an edited version by his pupil Ibn Hisham was translated into English by Alfred Guillaume and published by Oxford University Press. Ibn Hisham has edited out some of the incidents in the Life of Muhammad that are crude or reflect badly on him. There is also Al-Waqidi's Kitab al-Maghazi. He leans heavily on Ibn Ishaq but also has other chains of narration that confirm or conflict with Ibn Ishaq in the details and adds gross oaths and swear words uttered by Abu Bakr, etc. Also differs in the chronological order of all the raids, battles and assassinations ordered by the Prophet himself, and in whether Muhammad tortured only Kinana to death at Khaybar or also Kinana's brother, etc. A short easy-to-read version of Ibn Ishaq's Life of Muhammad can be found at widowspress.com.
Once again a Brilliant presentation.. I really loved the slides .. They make easy to follow the development of Islam from the Mess of the 5th century CE onwards.. I only wish this type of academic criticism had happened sooner it would have saved much pain in the world.. Muslims have to finally wake up to the facts born out of historical evidence here .. And start seeing how Islam was actually made up and not what they have been told .. Thank you Thomas.. 😃
Hello! I love your channel. Would you please make a video refuting or addressing the fallacies Muslims post in the comment section of your videos. Thank you again for your wonderful job!
Danke für deine Arbeit. Dies alles zusammen zu stellen und mit einander in Kontext zu bringen ist wirklich sehr interessant. Ich finde es ebenfalls sehr bezeichnend das unter den Abbasiden um 850 in Bagdad nicht nur der Tafsir (al Tabari) entstand, sondern auch die Neufassung von 1001 Nacht ins arabische. Schon ein lustiger Zufall.
I wonder if this is the stuff Yasir Qadhi referred to when he referred to things many Muslims don't know about, and should be kept from knowing because knowing it would be "problematic".
I enjoyed that video. It was so satisfying 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣. So let me try to explain what i think happened: So in speakers corner, Hatun Tash and Dr Jay started displaying different Quran variants. Muhammad Hijab was there and he was trying to draw the people away, he wasn't aware of these variants and so was stunted. He consulted Yasir about this variants and he started talking about these concept, stating how this is usually kept close to the Chest in the eastern side of Islam and not talked about, leading to the infamous 'holes in the narrative ' before trying to change the topic. But that's just my opinion.
There is a channel Useful Charts that talks about the origins of the Qur'an and concludes that much of it is ancient legends and stories summarised orally and then retold and re-summarised by someone. This would account for all the garbled stories of the prophets that got into the Qur'an. Also apocryphal stories and pseudo-gospels circulating at the time of Muhammad, who being illiterate, believed they were in the Bible. The Qur'an itself tells us that the reciter of the Qur'an was accused of 'telling legends of the ancients' which ties up perfectly with Muhammad being the reciter, having scribes to write it down, and having men like Salman the Persian compile and edit it for years after his death.
My son Answer no. 1 quran isn't about ancient legends or the stories of ancient legends weren't copied in quran or summarised . Quran reveals the things which history has been thirst for . It reveals about babylonians . And the miraculous incidents , word miracles golden ratio etc.. prove u wrong David 2. It wasn't compiled by salman the Persian . Arabs were illeterate but Allah taught quran to muhammad peace be upon him and then he told this to his companions . Now do u want to tell that salman the Persian knew more quran than muhammad saw ???? If so then today quran wouldn't exist as no one could have written it Think about it .. 3. You made contradiction now as u said quran was compiled by someone And later mentioned salman wrote it 4. You are bullshit That is all
@@hussainillahi3465 Fun fact. All scriptures including the Quran came out of the mouths of men and were written down by the hands of men and were compiled and edited by yet other men. Get over it. 😁
Hey Thomas, I really would like to know where exactly in the Quran the parallel between Pharaoh and Khosrow is drawn. This is extremely interesting for me and I would love to get an answer to that! As always thank you for your work!
Vielen Danke for the interesting presentation Thomas. If the proto Koran was written by Arabs then were the Syriac people who were moved to Merv and Persia considered Arabs? Also what about the Sana'a manuscript which could be a proto Koran and dated early 8th century (7th century by Muslims), was this developed separately with different Surah from the Merv proto Koran?
The deportees were a mix of Arabs, Jews, Aramaeans and Greeks. But there were many Arabs already living in Persia, even as far as Merv. It was a major trading place which attracted people from everywhere. Through the deportees, these people would be confronted with Christianity and it seems like many Arab tribes (if not most of them) within Persia converted to a Syrian form of Christianity which was anti-Trinitarian. As for the Sanaa Manuscript, we don't have enough of it to make a definitive statement, but it's clearly not the earliest form of the Proto-Koran. We're at least well on the way to the Koran we know today.
You are right in bringing up old Quranic manuscripts as an objection to the hypothesis of the merv origin of Islam. You see when hobbiest "historians" go wild in their imaginations and tell us their speculative hypotheses, we as commentators and viewers of some of those speculative videos have to wrestle with the immediately obvious problems and objections that real physical evidence pose. Indeed what do we do with manuscripts discovered elsewhere and far away from the speculative origins of Islam? The Sanaa manuscripts have been carbon dated, studied, etc. and they certainly attest to the existence of early Islam, i.e. proto-quran in the Arabian peninsula. If the proto-Quran was in Merv then why can't we find some hard evidence to support that? Why can't we find a similar inscription such as that of the dome of the rock? Of course they'd tell you Ibn Marwan and later Muslims have erased all traces; how convenient.
Hi Thomas, are you using machine learning do detect some context or relation of verses. Especially for Syro-Aramaic reading the quran analysis with ML is very suitable. You will detect some relation which is not considered by manual research.
In the Quran I’ve seen Jewish mysticism, cave of treasures, apocalypse of Abraham, targum Sheba, even some Talmud, Sanhedrin Mishnah 4:5 is where they got the surah almaidah 5:32 , and almaidah 110 is from the gnostic infancy gospel of Thomas
One of the most famous Rabbi's alive would agree with you. And he's also say that Muslims and Jews worship the same 1 true god. . Unlike Christians. And btw. .I was born in Syria. . My whole family is orthodox christian. . Before you accuse me of picking sides. His name is Tovia Singer
Thanks for this very interesting video series. I have not yet read his book, but was Christoph Luxenberg himself not convinced that the (proto) Quran was written in 'Aramaic-Arabic hybrid' that was spoken near Mecca?
Fascinating research, compilation and presentation - TQ for sharing with the world Thomas, Dr.Gunther Luling, Prof Cristoph L ..Prof Dan Brubaker & all✌💦🙏 Cheers from Borneo 👣🌏✨
Very interesting. So how come Merv (Central Asia) and Near East (Palestine) were a same political entity at the end of the 7th century when Abd el Malik (coming from Merv) was ruling in Jerusalem and Damascus?
Thank you so much for a wonderful and invaluable series! Regarding Merv, you say that we do not have a "smoking gun" with respect to it. However, by noting that the early coins refer to Abd al Malik Marwan (and not as 'ibn Marwan'), wouldn't those coins (showing Abd al Malik's origin, and not his father's name) be that smoking gun? Wouldn't the addition of the "ibn" to his name be an attempt to hide his origin? Forgive me, but I am wondering why you are not more confident based on the coins? Thank you again.
Thank you for your kind words. You are of course correct that the coins are very strong evidence. But I always try to be careful. There’s always a chance of other possible explanations being true and I want to be as honest as I can. Only then can I be credible. Despite all of the great evidence, the Merven origin is still one of the more speculative parts of my presentations. Personally, I’d say the likelihood is greater than 50%, but it’s not 99% either. It’s somewhere in between. That is really good, but not good enough to ignore other possibilities.
Hi Thomas, 1. Is there a coin with full name Abdl Malik Marwan on it either in Arabic or Pahlavi? 2. Has the city of Harran been considered as another candidate? The amazing thing about Harran is that Abdl Malik has a coin with Muhammad on it and no Rasul Allah minted in Harran. Also Harran had a pagan population even till 10th century AD! And Harran has an Abraham connection too.
@@TAlexander why hijazi script, if the proto-quran was being put together in mesopotamia or central-asian region? Is it because of Nabataean influence on classical Arabic?
@@roshlew6994 It's called "hijazi script" but that doesn't mean that it comes from the Hejaz. I've got a "3 Minute Quran Study" episode on the issue. It's simply the earliest Arabic script. Having said that, Christoph Luxenberg identified some scribal errors which can only be explained if we assume that the proto-Quran was originally written in Arabic, but using the Aramaic script - at least in part. Only later was it then transcribed into Arabic script. I went over this in a previous episode.
According to Volker Popp, of the two "-AN" suffixes of MRW-AN-AN the first one is the genitive case, which could point to a father. But the second one is the plural ending which rules out a father and instead points to a people or tribe.
Hello Thomas. I tend to believe that the location in which Islam started is where you have suggested. HOWEVER, as far as the quibla of old mosques, Gibsons shows they are facing Petra. EVEN IF, I myself do not believe that is where Islam started, HOWEVER the quibla of those various mosques do seem to point at Petra. Where do you think the quiblas point to?
Thomas, can you explain why the inarah school think buddhism influenced islam (theologically), arent they theologically diametrical? Buddhism does not believe in the last day, aren't they? Any documents that solidify this buddhism co-location/settlement requirement?
I’ve never read anything about theological influences. It’s more about practice. Certain rules and prescriptions. I went over some of them in the previous video.
islame what a beautiful religion 🕋🙏😭 Bukhari 5133: “the Prophet (🐷) married her [Aisha] 👶when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old
This is a perfect example of an ad hominem argument. ALL religious organisations provide happy hunting grounds for paedophiles and other kinds of predators, not just Islam. We don't adduce your violent crimes, before and after your involvement with Pegida, as evidence for or against your neo- and palaeo- fascist ideas, because that would be irrelevant.
@@jxcess3891 dude i don't care about you. All I'm going to tell you is this. If the hadiths come from a single narrator, they are not authentic. The 6-9 hadith is like that. What you believe is none of my business.
@@furkancimen3145 Hishām ibn ʿUrwa is the narrator most commonly mentioned in the ḥadīth placing her at six and nine. Some argue that Hishām was the only one to narrate this, weakening the strength of the ḥadīth since if this was common knowledge, then many more narrators would have mentioned the age of ʿĀʾisha. However, this is a fallacy since there are other narrators who narrate this such as al-Aswad ibn Yazīd, Abī Salama ibn ʿAbd al-Raḥmān, and others.
I don't think there is any verse in the Quran that against Trinitarian. For example, Qs 5:72-73, alleged to be anti-Trinitarian verse. In fact, that particular verse criticize certain heretical Christian Arab community, who believe in collyridianism. They believe that allah, Isa and Maryam are three god.
@@JesusisaMuslim 100% nonsense and bullshit. In fact, Qs 4:171 teach Trinity: Qs 4:171 (literal translation) You The Book`s people, do not exaggerate the limit in your religion, and do not say on God except the truth , but the Messiah, Jesus, *Mary`s son God`s messenger and His word He threw it away to Mary, and Spirit from Him* According to this ayat, Jesus was Kalimatullah and Ruhullah. In order to decieve people, your ulama put word in bracket (created) and (Trinity) in order to cheat people to believe, that verse speak about Jesus "creature" and about Trinity. You are bullshit and deceiver just like your imam.
Islam is against Nestorian, Arian, Maryama which all have 3 gods : Isa, Maryam and Allah. Islam is not against Christian or Trinity. The Quran never even mention Trinity (Allah, Kalimatullah, Ruhullah).
Hey what's the Quranic reference to Khosrow as Pharaoh? This is my fourth time rewatching the whole series. Merv makes more sense than mesopotamia. Though the bulk of the Arabs were mesopotamian arabs. Well, anyways, the Quran has a shift towards the east in the centuries. Many early ideas come from west, Israel, Syria... but the clear zoroastrian, bhuddist influences, the polemics against the Nestorian church of IranShahr and the east. Though, doesn't the real coding of the Bhuddist practice cone from the later Sunnah? The Sunnah (written in the late 9th century but probably the early 10th) was written by people as Bukhari or Muslim and other 4 important ones (or at least the schools they created). These dudes ALL are persians from greater Khorasan, which had very strong Bhuddist influences. So, are there any other bhuddist influences in Islam? How strong are the ones in the Quran? Or is most of it from later centuries?
hi Thomas, How are you sure that Mecca, or really the city that the Umar and his fighters come from is not in Eastern Syria? I believe this is some contemporary text calling a place Mecca in Eastern Syria somewhere around the Khabur river. What makes you think that these Bhuddist and Zoroastrian influences are not imports from the Abbasid period and that the Umayad version of 'Chrislam' was much more Judeo Christian that modern Islam as we expect it to be?
Instead of "Buddhist" influence...I'd rather term it as "Indic" influence....which encompass Buddhism and other traditions such as Sramana and vedic religions. If you pay attention to how Muslims pray....they are quite similar to yogic postures, which has no precedent in the Arabian peninsula. (Besides the shaving thingy (Buddhist influence) you mentioned in your previous videos).
Haha the speculation is funny in this video. just look at the hadith and you will know how the magnificient Quran has been memorized through relevation, and from there on written down on pages and then compiled in a book. For you is your way, for me is my way.
Thank you Thomas we are learning a lot with you. Another anomaly that I keep pointing to Muslims is the fact that most of the initials scholars who wrote the SIN ( boukhari, muslim.....) came from eastern Persia and that is a fact that even Muslims do not deny. That could mean that not only Islam started there but it actually evolved for a while before moving to the west. What do you think ?
Yes, it makes sense, though at that point we‘re already centuries down the line. It could be that this evolution from Christian sect to Islam also came from the East.
Thank you very much.. it was very organised, especially the timeline, which the only thing will remain in memory. Now....let's make things more interesting by studying politics side during that period between Byzantine & Persians. What the story behind merry Byzantine Kings to Parsians Kings cristian woman? Was Parsian under control from Byzantine imperior ? Why does zaoresm need to create a new religion? Is there a problem between Parsian rulers and zaoresm leaders? Was the " black stone"(God sent fire from the sky) a part of a zaoresm spiritual belief system? Waiting for your study with a petionate.... I appreciate your effort very much...
I’m open minded, but I also want to know how this merges with known history. For starters there were Fitnas (civil wars, and according to the received history both sides fought over who inherits the mantle of the Arab empire, descendants of Mohammed or non-descendants of Mohammed, if the Mohammed narrative is not true, then did those wars and their battles occur or not?) - also we have the writings of John of Damascus criticizing Islam, or at least Mohammed. John was a scholar who was a son of a scholar, who reportedly worked for Mu’awiya. Mu’awiya, the received history says, was both a secretary for Mohammed and the son of Abu Sufyan - Sufyan was Mohammed’s chief enemy for roughly 20 years according to the received history. What in the old narrative is verifiable history and how does this new narrative merge with that?
The closer we get to the Abbasids, the more the two histories converge. By the time of Mu’awiya, we’re already pretty close. Before Mu’awiya, most of the standard Islamic narrative is at least questionable, often outright constructed.
Hi Thomas great video...i just have a small doubt...you said that Khosru 1 deported groups of Arab christians to eastern persia...but how could these small arab christians after the Byzantine-Sassanian war take over the whole middleast and persia??? If their number was small...how could they rule over much more bigger population 🤔
There were always Arabs in Persia. They weren't a small group. Particularly the Euphrates valley was largely Arab. I'll get into that in a little more detail in the upcoming videos. The point of these deportations is rather to explain how Christianity could spread rapidly in Persia. The Sasanians imported Christian kernels and distributed them throughout their country. Shapur I and Khosrow I were the most prolific deporters, but there were deportations throughout the centuries. Hundreds of thousands were deported, which is a significant number given the overall world population of the time.
@@TAlexander you did explain the spread of Christianity in Merv (abdul malik origin). However, abdul malik was a warlord so he will be where his troops are. If he instructed Quran to be written, it will be near where he was. And remember than there were also southern arabia/African influence on the Quran. It might have been added later, but quran will not be easily accepted by the Southern Arab if they knew it came from persia. Also, hajj resembles Hinduism rather than Buddhism.
@@AndiWidjaja The hajj with its shaven heads and two pieces of white cloth was an ancient pagan planetary ritual more like Hinduism than anything to do with Buddhism.
@@AndiWidjaja The Qur'an existed in oral form and in pieces of writing from the time of Muhammad. It was not compiled and edited until after his death in 632CE by his followers. Harvard scholars quote a letter of Leo the Isaurian in 718CE speaking contemptuously of the Quran saying 'We know of a certain Hajjaj, governor of Persia, who replaced your writings with his own. A few of Abu Turab's works escaped. Hajjaj could not make them disappear completely.' The Harvard scholars reckon that it was this Hajjaj who was the first to try putting in diacritical marks rather than altering the whole thing.
Synthesis efforts in the field of Islamic studies are still very rare. We must therefore welcome with sympathy any attempt such as this, especially since the method followed seems to me to be one of the best. Indeed, it is very similar to the one that allowed Thomas Looney to challenge the orthodox thesis on Shakespeare and to identify the most likely author, Edward de Vere, resulting in a complete renewal of the Shakespearean studies. Another merit of this synthesis is that it definitively distances us from the traditional narrative, essentially a mytho-theological narrative, whose historical value is very weak if not null.
Im still not sure if the received Quran really attacs the Trinity. bc 1. the term (Thalouth) nowhere appears, nor the concept of Uqnoum (Persona, and the Holy Spirit is nowhere really defined). it says Dont say Three! and mentions the concept of Tritheism (Allah with Maryam and 3isa as three gods). the main purpose is to deny the Divinity of Christ. or in other terms "... but Jesus is not God!" hhh
Yes. They seem to have encountered tritheism and clearly rejected it. But by extension, with the rejection of the divinity of christ they also reject the Trinity.
@@Peter-xf9jy Did I say they call Mary God? read properly. In the New Testament, Jesus and God are not of the same essence. 2 different gods. they have a hierarchy. they are talking to each other. do you understand ? I know your explanation. I know the example of the sun. But I don't think the book explains that. The bible is clearly polytheistic.
Thomas you have done intensive research on the subject. But question remains why earlier ayats are found on skin , leather, bones etc but not on the paper. Were they so poor unable to manage paper and ink. Until we find answers to these questions no convulsions can be drawn. Secondly if we assume only oral text were prevalent then it should have been very rare. It couldn't be popular. Limited to very small number of people. Need more convincing evidence.
We don't know that the early aya were found on skins, wood, etc. That's the story we're told centuries after the fact. But of course the proto-Quran would have been very rare and confined to a small group of people.
Too far away. Iraq is a much more probable location. You have to keep in mind that there is Yemeni lore also in the Quran. As for the Buddhist traditions in Islam, it doesn’t require the need for the community to live amongst Buddhists. They can easily acquire the traditions without direct contact
agree. Even if Abdul Malik origin was from Merv, as a warlord, he will be where his troops is, so if the proto-quran was written under his instructions, it's more likely it was written either in Syria or around previous Mesopotamia area. On the hajj, it is more likely from Hinduism rather than Buddhism. There is nothing in Buddhism that resemble anything in Islam.
Mesopotamia (Babylon, Ctesiphon, etc…) was long a capital city over lands that had been Buddhist for nearly a millennia, that’s is, Western Pakistan and Afghanistan. As such we can expect that there was plenty of Buddhist representation in Babylon/Ctesiphon areas. Also, Babylon had been a center of Jewish legal scholarship since 500 bc. Jesus discussion concerning Love God+Love Neighbor, was only recently established concept by the great Jewish law scholar, Hillel. Hillel was from Babylon and moved to Palestine only later. As a capital city, it was a place where ideas from the periphery might commingle. The monastic tradition in Christianity probably comes from Christian hermits, such as St. Anthony in Egypt. But such hermitage probably comes from Buddhist & Hindu elements that found their way to Babylon/Ctesiphon. Hindu concept of creation and God is similar to Judaic except the Godhead is split into many deities and creation is not considered “good”, its considered a kind of hell. A soul in Hinduism/Buddhism then seeks to renounce the world to escape it and the endless cycle of reincarnation. Reincarnation only ends by reunion with the Godhead. That is done by separation and renouncing the world and materialism. Buddha did the same thing and while meditating in isolation, it is said he found enlightenment and a short cut to reunion with the Godhead. So this tradition found its way to the Middle East by way of Ctesiphon/Babylon. John the Baptist’s living in the wilderness and living off of locust may have been following this tradition. Later, in Europe, they created monasteries so that monks lived in cloisters instead of total isolation.
@@kaneinkansas Buddhism reached Mesopotamia, maybe but Buddhism certainly reached persia. Mesotomia people are Buddhists, big jokes. Provide your source of evidence please? The war of elephant story is a clear indication of Hinduism. When Buddhism spread, war stopped. This happened in China and, south east Asia, and to certain extend, India. This was the reason the barbaric foreigners took over those lands because the people won't fight. The nothern Arabia people is war mongering. Quran has nothing peaceful. So, people can make any theories for fame, but please keep some common sense.
@@AndiWidjaja I'm sorry I can't remember where I read this. I'm sure over the years I've read over a hundred books dealing with various and collateral subjects. But it is also self evident, is it not? When an Empire controls vast regions, elements of the various provinces conquered end up in the capital for various reasons, as merchans, as slaves, as emissaries bearing tribute or tax receipts, or as consultants to advise conquering forces on how to best govern and so on. I'm not saying that Mesopotamia or even parts of it converted to Buddhism, I am saying that they were exposed to Buddhist ideas and concepts, as well as other ideas such as Zoroastrianism from Persia and Judaism from Judea and so forth. Bablyon became a center for Jewish legal studies for nearly a millenium, yet it would be wrong to say that Babylon was ever predominantly Jewish. The area was exposed to a lot of ideas from every direction. Consequently I'm sure a few Buddhist, and probably more than a few, showed up in the capital (Bablyon/Ctesiphon) and their unique ideas and methodologies became transmitted to the new, local audiences. To a few personalities, living the life of an aesthetic hermit dedicate to a theology was something that appealed to them. Thus was born monks living as hermits in the desert and the like. Over the centuries, Mesopotamian based empires conquered both east and west. Babylon/Ctesiphon was then a natural center from where ideas drifted to and then moved out from various directions - this is probably true for over a millennium beginning with the New Babylonian empire (quickly followed up by the Achaemenid Persian Empire, then the Hellenic, and later Parthian and eventually Sassanian states). The great Jewish Legal Scholar, Hillel came from Babylonia, but spent much of his career in Roman Judea only a few years or a decade before Jesus. In regard to ideas, he functioned as a kind of early messenger of ideas that Jesus would expand upon. Another such idea that spread along this corridor was Manicheism. Mani used elements of Zoroastrianism and Christianity. The great theologian Augustine followed Manicheism before he converted to Christianity and for a time it was very popular with Roman soldiers (again, I can't remember where I read that). Another account I read is that the Khazars, a Turkish group that controlled the area north of the Black and Caspian Seas, and thus one of the routes which the Silk road passed through, caught between Christian Byzantium and Arab Muslims, opted to convert to Judaism - which perhaps was an attempt to be neutral to facilitate trade. At any rate, the Khazar Khan requested that Jewish teachers/scholars be sent to him from Babylon which even in late antiquity was still a center of Jewish legal studies. To say that the Babylonians or Persians of Ctesiphon were ignorant of Buddhism would be highly, highly unlikely. Just as unlikely is that some ideas of Buddhism didn't find their way into other aesthetic or religious ideas to various people. I'm a Christian, but I would never deny that Buddhism has lots of interesting &/or good ideas, not all I would agree with, but interesting none-the-less (an example is that Judeao-Christians believe creation and the world created is basically good, according to early chapters of Genesis. Buddhist and Hinduism generally believes creation, because of suffering, is something to be transcended or escaped from and so doesn't look as optimistically or see creation as being so good. One can imagine people living in exposure to these ideas wondering about them and working them over an occassionally something new popped out. Hermits was likely one of these ideas, which later lead to monasteries in the west). I just think this is common sense view of the process of history and geography.
@@kaneinkansas thanks for the explanation, I think I was mistaken in interpreting your statement. I thought you said that babylon was a capital for Buddhism. I guess it's common knowledge about the Silk Road, and certainly Buddhism spread along the Silk Road. It's true that Christianity does have a lot in common with Buddhism. In fact many Buddhists consider Jesus is simply one of the Buddha. However, in regard to eslam, eventhough eslam started as an anti-trinitarian Christian cult, but it was heretical. They differ in area where there are similarity between Christians and Buddhism, ie. Souls, Incarnations, Love your neighbour, Introspection, Happiness, Lifelong journey, Monastery, etc. So, I don't agree with Tjomas speculation that eslam copied the hajj rituals from Buddhism. It doesn't make any sense, not today, not in the past. The white clothes he used as evidence is exactly the Hindu wear. To be more precise, it's Indian clothing. Buddhism came from India so it's nothing strange that some monks happen to wear the white clothes as well. Majority of Buddhist monks wear yellow/orange clothes.
I'm not sold on the Petra hypothesis. I find the Jerusalem hypothesis more plausible. However, neither hypothesis is incompatible with what I've presented here. Petra may well have been a city of great importance to the Arabs. But it wouldn't have played a role in the creation of this precursor to the Quran which I am talking about. But it could still have taken the role as a major holy site.
@@TAlexander Petra's relevance is the qibla direction. Islam did indeed combine elements from various religions: Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism - and also pagan rock-worship.
@@TAlexander I do not know if you will discuss the directions of the quiblas. Gibson theory seems plausible on that point. What do your studies suggest as far as tge directions of the quiblas?
Your theory has holes in it ! This does not explain the verses of hat were “ revealed “ to Muhammad when he was in Mecca , and Medina , ( if he was there at all ) , I mean each verse has an occasion for revelation, … so did he get help from monks or did he do it all by himself ? was Quran put together after Muhammad and then it was made as if he received the revelation, ? all his biography and Islamic history are fake ?
Indeed. Either Muhammad didn’t exist at all, or if he did, he wouldn’t be recognisable compared to the Muhammad of Islamic legend to the point that he might as well not have existed. Sira and Sunna are for the most part the result of exercises in exegesis, not biographical accounts.
I would think that hagareens were Ibrahimits as were Mahmad and Muawiya, mahmet is probably was an ibrahimist on the right way as mentioned by Sebeos and qoran versus on Ibrahim, hanif, musalam(correct),. He is the warlord who united all using common ancestor, Ibrahim to liberate the land ( he might be historical Umar), he had writers who used existing old theology in Syria and Iraq that is in harmony with their Ibrahimic believes, I think Ali and Salman are the composers as mentioned in Leo's letter. Ali and Salman composed pages by adding an opening to suras as words from god then pasting paragraphs from old Arabic profits in nabatéens area as well as the debates of the anti trinitarian with minority christians in Persia, war suras are written by Umar, Jenn suras were added by Umar too to make pagans join the call of the moumenoun and so on..accordingly, I see an ibrahimist leader who claims he is profit as god guides his ideas and he is selecting all literature in the context of nabatea and Persia from the 4th to the 6th century that matches what he believes including the old Arabic profits, anti trinitarians, gnostic imagery ....to justify his believes...these ibrahimists are mentioned by sozomon, since trinitarians and Jews contradicts with the ibrahimists and didn't join the new call, they were considered enemies. Nastorians were considered freinds with almoumenoon until nestorians joined the trinitarians...Ali might have been a friend nestorian that most of his writing were excluded later on by the ibrahimist alhajaj
If I had been deported over and over then given a patsy in charge of religion I guess I would react harshly as well - that was my thought before I even watched this series.
Montanus is the only other person that fits the “Ahmad”. Title that is given to Mohammed. Montanus and Mohammed have alot of odd similarities. He claimed to be the successive prophet and leader of the Christian movment. Etc. Montanus claimed to be the “Ahmad” from the gospel of John. Word for word what is claimed in the Quran. Among other refrences to the book or revelation through the Quran. This text would fit Montanus in many ways. The montanist were around until after 600 ad. And they had poems and texts written by the prophet Montanus. Montanus was claiming to be the same coming prophet in the Quran; also they followed him as this leader from the book of revelation. He established a pilgrimage center; came out of idolatry. People accused him of being a mad poet. Etc.
(I haven't checked if others have already said this.) I'm thinking that your use of the word "deportations" isn't very intuitive. I wonder if "forced migrations" would be a better choice. For me, "deportations" are when the rulers/government of a country force people to leave that country. It sounds like you are using it for when they force people to move within a country (or into it?).
PROFESSOR DANIEL BIRNSTIEL : The Pahlavi legend "APD'LMLIK-i-MRWânân" (Popp's rendering) which appears on coins minted there and which has been read as Abd al-Malik Bin Marwân (Abd al-Malik, the son of Marwân), is taken to mean "Abd al-Malik from the people of Merv". Popp takes this as proof that Merv was a centre of a type of a "traditional" Christianity that had been moved from Mesopotamia. However, the reading of "i-MRWânân" as "from the people of Merv" is impossible, since the Middle Persian suffix -ân is not used for the derivation of words denoting origin. On the other hand, the reading "Son of Marân" is not only possible, but, moreover, actually represents the only way to render this meaning in Pahlavi. IM AN EX MUSLIM, BUT THE INARAH WORK IS NOTHING BUT SCIENCE FICTION
Voler Popp angered other historians because he did not accept their dating of the coins (and that for good reasons). However, Scientist can come to different conclusions and still have valid Arguments. Inarah has a huge article Article (german) by Popp, he points out several things including Inscriptions on buildings. Popp is not much concerned about the Quran but focuses on the political Development in Persia and Syria. So calling Inarah's work "science fiction" is not realy helpful.
@@slippingsnake Popp is not a historian, and his coins readings is full of mistakes. i think muhammad did exist. he stole old texts from jews and christians and composed his quran. and mecca ist probably in Petra. the theory of Dan Gibson is much more powerful i think. The inarah narrative is based on nothing. No evidence, all of it is false interpretations
Oh yes, I was wondering how they relate Abd al-Malik Ibn Marwan to be from Merv!, because this is impossible, if he is from Merv, his nisba must have been Abd al-Malik Al- Marwazi, not Ibn Marwan
@@mimo7567 No contemporary evidence has been found of the Prophet Muhammed but we know that this person is made up from something. Firstly the title Muhammed is given to Christ and secondly that some warlord that took over Jerusalem was noted as a prophet and may signify some historical background to take notice of. The idea that Merv is the place the Proto-Quran was written is not far-fetched. Dan Gibson made a case for Nabatean origin of the religion and the location of Mecca in Petra. There is no strong evidence for that in contemporary sources. "Contemporary" means from 590 - 630.
@@mimo7567 "...i think muhammad did exist...." I think this is a wrong approach. I can't dismiss your Arguments, but by looking for "APD'LMLIK-i-MRWânân" I've found the Prof. Birnstiel article and in there he also points out: "...Anders hingegen der Konsensus der Islamwissenschaft: Hier wird der islamische Traditionsbericht als im Großen und Ganzen historisch korrekt betrachtet und von der historischen Existenz Muhammads ausgegangen...." or short: Consensus of islamic science sees islamic traditions as mostly authentic... yup, moon splitting and a flying donkey, good job. My question is: how does the standard islamic narrative fit into the historical timeline, the war between Byzanz and persia and the Rise of the Arabs. By now I'm mostly convinced that they don't match at all but that there is another explenation. Have you read about the "Era of the arabs" and the "Greek Inscription In The Baths Of Hammat Gader, 42 AH / 662-63 CE" and how a greek Inscription is connected to the arabs? :)
Just because Marwan sounds like "Marw", which by the way also has another meaning in Arabic other than that city, and because the Quran mentions fruits and plants, and seemingly Buddhists influences are in some Islamic rituals, doesn't mean we'd have to completely relocate the place of origin of Islam so far away from the places in which real physical evidence attesting to the early existence of Islam reside. The Quran mentions gardens and vegetation in the context of a heavenly paradise (which would make sense as reward for desert dwelling people!) , and it also mentions severe draught, desert mirages, dates, and camels which is obviously more associated with deserts. Any plantation or agricultural reference in the Quran is obviously mentioned in the context of God's capabilities and the lure of paradise. If the receptors of the Quran had already been living in gardens and plant rich areas, those references would've been unimpressive for them. I am sure desert dwellers are not completely ignorant of the riches of more abundant areas nearby. Just as much as I'm sure they were not completely ignorant of Christian, Jewish, Zoastrian, and Hindu/Buddhist religions and rituals.
Non-sense. We need ACTUAL evidence, not made up stories of" paradise" to give location of where Islam was established. The green and lushious land is NOT description of desert. The " paradise" thing is just YOUR FANTASY, not backed by HISTORICAL EVIDENCE of actual LAND.
@@cognitiveblues stories of paradise are part of the Quran. This is not something I'm making up. You're obviously ignorant of it. Look it up; it's full of it. Secondly there is no where in the Quran where it explicitly mentions the lush green land as the specific place of the people towards whom the message is directed. It says "humans" in general should look at how god in general created greenery. Or, it's part of a context of an ancient story of other peoples.
12:40 considering you are talking about the Greek church here, it would have made much more sense to label them as Orthodox to avoid confusion. Nevertheless excellent video
Catholic and Orthodox were the same at this stage. Catholic is a Greek word. Thomas even mentioned that this church was Greek and Latin, but he then called it Greek because that was one of the cultures in the middle east
All name to one God . You have seen him in many forms so you call him . But muslims havent seen him so they call as simply "GOD" in all languages Bagwan in hindi , Allah in Arabic ,lord in english. Because muslims have to speak only truth . So it force us to tell we havent seen him. You know we are the late generation (God missed us or we missed Him) I dont know.
Because it was originally written in a mixed Aramaic/Arabic language used by the deportees at the time it was written, and without diacritics and points to distinguish certain consonants. By the time the Quran was "gathered" (compiled) as an official document, no one spoke this language any longer and the Quran was basically unreadable to anyone. It was at this point that many fake stories were invented as tafsir to explain passages that made no sense. The editing was done by Arabic speakers who didnt understand what was in front of them
This hypotheses falls apart for 2 main reasons 1 the description of Muhammad’s epileptic seizures is two accurate for someone from before modern medicine to fake. Number 2 people travel especially religious teachers. It’s likely that he learned stuff for years from many different traveling religious masters. Likely all the sources you said can be found anywhere on the silk road. There is tons of stuff about desert caravans. Preachers would have been coming into and out of every town on the silk road. It’s likely this is where Muhammad learned all his stuff. Your stuff is really interesting but your fighting to make this conclusion that this man did not exist but its almost certain there was an epileptic preacher who made all these utterances during his seizures. People wrote these down. As time went on there was a bunch of fakers who basically copied Muhammads “prophet hustle”. Then later someone took all these utterances from Muhammad and the copy cats and made the Koran. They then took a bunch of oral stories they had and matched them to the quotations as best they could. This explains everything ur saying and is simpler. Its likely that anyone interested in religion and trade around this time would speak Aramaic so Muhammad most likely did. Language was much more messy than your thinking. Not like today with many standard dictionaries.
I like the way you are explaining history of Quranic origin, I love to shire my findings with you, Who was Allah and who wrote Quran? My understanding about big 4 religions, and combining of their ideology by Arabs about 1200 years ago as Quran, to control and make one international/ global empire and give them their new all in one combo religion as Islamic Quran. Puran originally from Maha-Bharat , by Hanood ( idol worship, pagan, Hindu ) stated more then 3 thousands years ago by Emperor Ram’s son Lav ( al- Lah ) ( Brahama’s family) , it was written on iron tablets in Kushala. Turat = toura = Jewish book , started by Israeli kings ( children of Abrahim original from from Iraq 🇮🇶) . Bible = ingeel= started by Julius Cesar ( Jesus) brother of James Cesar ( Isa ibni Maryam) , in Rome ( Italy 🇮🇹) , about 2 thousands years ago, also know as christianity. Zuboor, started by Iran 🇮🇷, by Zurtush, also know as fire worship, parsi, about 3 thousands years ago. Noor and nimaz from this religion. as many emperor lived / died , in India and many other empires, smaller states/ countries were too in any given time frame of history, like , Iran , Israel , Iraq, Yaman , Egypt and many other European countries, and many war-lards waged wars and many religions were created by mostly king or Emperor as Empire constitution in beginning and some religions died very soon and few became international as empire grew and finally one of them given Quran as combo of older books added with a sex and war stories in it as some fabricated historical mistakes. We know Mohammed, musa Isa or Jesus, Mosus , Zulu Qurnan and Zul- Kufil , in Quran are titles of some king in past history, Isa is James Cesar, who was step Brother of Julius Cesar and known as Jesus in Biblical history. Muslims don’t know they were both sons of Roman emperor Cesar About 2 thousands years ago. Mosus or Musa , is Uncil of James Cesar ( Isa son of Maryam) . Religion tell us , Musa existed 3 thousands years ago , I think it is a big lie , no historian ever recoded it . He was 2 thousands years ago , as he was uncle to Isa. Mohammed is also a title from Sanskrit ( Hindi / Punjabi) language from India, in Quran ( Puran) it is written 4 time and ONLY Hamad is addressed some one , only once. Maha Hamad is title not a name,and , we have to read soura Maryam, according to it , I understood, Isa son of Maryam is Maha- Hamad. Muslims’ clam of a nabi in Arabic land in Makkah, 1400 years ago is fabricated story. Dul- Qufal, was a god king , Buddha, from same family , of shiva- Rama empire from India, 2500 years ago. Dul- Qurnan is known as Nabi in Quran and he was Emperor of Grace/ Egypt about 2300 years ago and known as Alexander or Al- Skinder / Skinder Unanni. And Dul- Nouran is called to Mohammed’s richest friend Usman, who was Mohammed’s son in law , and Mohammed 2 daughters were married to him and both died very young age . Most of Quranic stories are copied from Zurastarian’s religions from Iran ( Parsi religion = fire worshiper’s religion) , Roman history ( bible) and Quran called them Kase and kisra , ( Nasrani ) Some is copied from Jews as bani Israel, ( yahood = Jews ) , And lot of it from Hanood, Hanoods are Hindus from older Indian/ Pakistani area’s kings / Rajas strories as religions known as ,Puran, vades , Geeta’s , but Muslims and others real history , was put under the rug, so we can not understand real truth about religion and history. Now main Question is who was Allah of Islam and where this name started? Allah is a fabricated name of Arabic ideology called Islam, my understanding of , where Allah name came from and why it is also known as moon god in Egyptian history? We have to open pages of history of Asia and Europe about 3000 years ago, what was happening in India , Pakistan , Iran, Iraq , Israel , Egypt , Greece , Italy and many other known major countries back then. And need to understand who was super power and what was role of them in known planet earth then , according to know religions books and some deeper looking in history, we find some clues. I found out emperor Rama from India was a very powerful Emperor, who was running a Continuation of a very big empir as a family kingship , for thousands and thousands years and most of kings from this empire are Hindus’ Bhagwan, like shiva , Kirisna, Manu, Buddha, Rama, Brahama etc, it might be more then 2 thousands years since Brahama ( Abraham/ Ibrahim / el / Gilgamesh seems one man story) time , Rama had 2 sons from Seeta , Lov and Kush , When Lov and Kush grew up , both became warlord as emperor Rama him self and added many far distance countries to their empire. We have historical fact , Israel was conquered by Rama’s son Lav , and known as Al - Lah in Arabic language or older language of that area and he made many shiva temples in all those countries were he went , one of that temple is Muslims Kabba with shiva idol, and shiva idol is broken many time but it has place in silver frame, and that black stone is called higra e Aswad , and going around 7 time of this black stone ( Hijjra e aswad ) , is short name of Hujj . You got it ? Higra to Hujj, it just a yearly festival of older time pagans ( Indian Hindus) , but with time some one change it to fabricated Islamic ideology. And Indian kings Purans became with added local stories and pronounced as Quran with Q . Do you know , What is Hajj? Older Hindu Yatra, It is done by Muslims , once a year in Kabba, Makkah, Saudi Arabia. Kabba , pagan temple( Hindu temple in Arabic land) , a Hindu pugari broke all other idols and told every one to just worship one idol in Kabba’s wall. And it was Shiva Lingam, we really don’t know , who made Kabba temple, but most probably, it was made 3 thousands years ago by Raja Lah son of Emperor Rama , when he conquered Israel and this side of continent , to expand Bhagwan / Empire of his father Rama , this same Lah who founded city Lahore, Pakistan by River Ravi in Iron Age. Also known as Al-Lah by Muslims. I request, all intellectuals , who are interested in truth , please reply your opinion. And I am happy to talk about it more , why I got to my understanding.
Marwan come from Marwa ? I think the Arabic name from people from Marwa is Marwazi not Marwan like a muslim author named Al Marwazi , the Arabic pattern for original place is by adding i after the place name, like Imam Al Bukhari, from Bukhari, Imam Tirmidzi from Tirmidz , Al Mada'ini from Al Madain ( Ctesiphon in Arabic that Mean Cities )
Its Persian/Iranic. The -an is a plural form, and can in this case points to a tribal construct. Marwanan then would be a non-Arabic construction although in this theory Muawiya et al was a "emigrant" (hagarene)/ old believer and descended from Mesopotamian Arab Christians deported by the Sassanian Empire to Merv. The linguistics of the assertion arent as outlandish as you might think. In fact there are mixed Arabic/Persian constructions used to this day in Afghanistsan. One I can think of off hand would be the most notorious product of modern Afghanistan besides low quality heroin: The Taliban. The base of the word, Talib, is obviously the perfectly standard arabic word for "student". But the Arabic plural would be tullab, a word which doesnt hit fearful American ears like "Taliban". So what gives? Well, we have a word derived from two seperate language groups becoming naturalized in the language of the region. The plural is constructed in the persian manner, thus the plural ending of -an, similar to Marwanan. Not, obviously to be understood as (son of) the student in this case, but rather as a simple plural. It makes intuitive sense for an Arab who was raised in the far eastern reaches of the Persian empire, in a totally Iranian language zone, to use similar suffixes to denote himself as the Man From Merv. The idea of a Pre Islamic Arabic name of Marwan, then, is simply another post-hoc fiction which sprung up to cushion its non existance in the mythology of the Standard Narrative of Islam. We know this happened with the name Muhammad - an appelation became a proper, real name in the narrative, as The Muhammad (the spiritualization of the idea of the returning Christ/ Messiah), who was the Abdullah (Servant of God) to the pre-nicene Syrian Christians slowly morphed within two centuries to an actual man NAMED Muhammed ibn Abdullah, who had an actual father by that name. And of course once a person is pulled into existance, stories must be invented to support him. Marwanan as a tribal designation rather than a given family name then would be just another way in which the actual history of the creation of the Arabic empire in the 7th century morphed into the pious fiction of the victorious Islamic takeover of the area instead. This is salvation history, not actual history.
As a historian of Islam, Qur'an have 7 Arab dialogue version,all have their own history, Here is Makkah dialogue history, Qur'an was first written on stones, goats , camels skin and bones, before 632, only two evidence are in Makkah now,pre date 632, After that During IST calif period, Zubair collected and form a book , by method (by hearings all witnesses and accepted all stone , skin's and bones) After that, 3 calif period , lost the only book so Again Zubair collected by same method made 6 copies distribute in 6 Provence, 2 of them still exists, one in Damascus second is in madina, In ummiyad period, They hired some people some of them Christian, make more copies and distribute again, In Calif hajaz period all vowels were added so others then Arab can recites it, Now we have sanad Sanad means stamp ( proven) Allah + Muhammad + Zubair + Usman + ali + Malik + Hejaz + umair ( qahera madresa egept 1928)
@Tariq Kamal! Yes Indeed! You are a historian of Islamic history of lies! The Islamic story just does not add up. That's why Sheik YASIR QADHI said there "HOLES IN THE NARRATIVE"
one thing i do not get is, why did they invent a prophet? mohammad is not just mentioned by name but also indirectly in the quran, as god telling him what to do and tell the believers
The indirect mentioning you refer to is the result of a certain interpretation of the Quran that only came about later. Without the context of Sira and Sunna which were written centuries after the fact, nobody would get the idea that the Quran is God talking to Muhammad. The straight forward reading is that it is directed not at Muhammad but at the reader/listener and not from God but from the writer/preacher.
This channel need more recognition.
A lot of your viewers are talking about you Thomas, yesterday in APs and David woods stream , somebody did a superchat about you.
We are sharing your content everywhere.
Keep up the good work. God bless
I have heard this before. I’m leaning towards this beginning. This completely destroyed the foundation of Islam. I love it. Thanks for your efforts and teaching.
Shatan has given time until the judgement day , so 100% proof will not be given in any religion we have to found , if we miss we will loose
You have completely misunderstood! He has not "completely destroyed" anything. As Thomas says, he has not produced the "smoking gun." Instead he has put forward a number of hypotheses and stated which he thinks are most likely to be correct.
Unfortunately, that's not how religion and faith work. They prefer to have ONE truth, and everything else is lies from the devil. That's the great difficulty of the academic study of religion: many scholars are on their knees, not at their desks.
@@faithlesshound5621 Are you an atheist?
@@faithlesshound5621 Yes this has destroyed Islam. anything that exposes it destroys it for all but the most ignorant.
@@faithlesshound5621 lies from the devil you say. True. Allah replacing Jesus with an innocent man on the cross and making it appear as Jesus was crusified is deceit. Thank you.
Thomas, you really know your material! I love your teaching style too!
Exactly
This is a great series of lectures. You have created what amounts to a short academic course on the topic, and must have been a big undertaking.
I applaud your effort, and thank you for producing these. I neednto work out who I know whom I can share these with.
Thanks Sir Thomas, waiting the next episode....Great Research
Mr Alexander, thank you very much, your work is highly appreciated.
You are a treasure Thomas Alexander, thanks for sharing your wisdom with people !
@jazzymiles miles Ouchhhh. This is hurting badly doesn't it. 😂!!
@jazzymiles miles The pagan is you. The black stone is just one of your idols. Look at the masses of apostates. Game over for islam. Whoever is being deceived now, will turn around quicker than when they came. A lie remains a lie no matter who believes it!!!
@@theelder5505
Do you know every year when Muslims go on a pilgrimage to Mecca, the MOON god go and sits right under the Black stone in her most dangerous form? ?
Nice work very enjoyably and well presented, Peace and Love..
Fascinating! Great scholarship
According to authentic Muslim sources, Muhammad had as part of his household Salman the Persian. Brought up as a Zoroastrian, converted to Christianity and then Islam. In fact Byzantine Emperor Leo the Isaurian wrote in a letter to Omar II that he knew the Qur'an is the work of Salman the Persian and Abu Taurab, (Father of Dust), Ali b. Abu Talib, Muhammad's cousin and son-in-law. Job done.
mmm interesting really interesting can you send a link if you don't mind my asking?
Can you specify those authentic Muslim sources?
@@samspade225 it's written more than one hundred year later to suit the need of abassid ruler. Moreover, muslims sources usually lied. Coins and inscriptions don't lie.
@@samspade225 You need to read the earliest authentic Muslim biography of Muhammad, Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah dictated to his pupils in Baghdad after a lifetime of research and interviews with the sons and grandsons of the Prophet and his companions. His Life of Muhammad in an edited version by his pupil Ibn Hisham was translated into English by Alfred Guillaume and published by Oxford University Press. Ibn Hisham has edited out some of the incidents in the Life of Muhammad that are crude or reflect badly on him. There is also Al-Waqidi's Kitab al-Maghazi. He leans heavily on Ibn Ishaq but also has other chains of narration that confirm or conflict with Ibn Ishaq in the details and adds gross oaths and swear words uttered by Abu Bakr, etc. Also differs in the chronological order of all the raids, battles and assassinations ordered by the Prophet himself, and in whether Muhammad tortured only Kinana to death at Khaybar or also Kinana's brother, etc. A short easy-to-read version of Ibn Ishaq's Life of Muhammad can be found at widowspress.com.
@@davidzack8735 🙂👍
I like the clear visualisation, it help to undertand the context.
I'm translating this video series.
Brilliant depiction,. Thanks Thomas!
I am hoping and praying that all your brilliant stuff that you’re putting in these series of videos end up in a book very soon. Amen.
Once again a Brilliant presentation.. I really loved the slides .. They make easy to follow the development of Islam from the Mess of the 5th century CE onwards.. I only wish this type of academic criticism had happened sooner it would have saved much pain in the world.. Muslims have to finally wake up to the facts born out of historical evidence here .. And start seeing how Islam was actually made up and not what they have been told .. Thank you Thomas.. 😃
Hello! I love your channel.
Would you please make a video refuting or addressing the fallacies Muslims post in the comment section of your videos.
Thank you again for your wonderful job!
Danke für deine Arbeit. Dies alles zusammen zu stellen und mit einander in Kontext zu bringen ist wirklich sehr interessant. Ich finde es ebenfalls sehr bezeichnend das unter den Abbasiden um 850 in Bagdad nicht nur der Tafsir (al Tabari) entstand, sondern auch die Neufassung von 1001 Nacht ins arabische. Schon ein lustiger Zufall.
Great and simple way to make us understand... Wonderful.
I wonder if this is the stuff Yasir Qadhi referred to when he referred to things many Muslims don't know about, and should be kept from knowing because knowing it would be "problematic".
I enjoyed that video. It was so satisfying 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣.
So let me try to explain what i think happened:
So in speakers corner, Hatun Tash and Dr Jay started displaying different Quran variants. Muhammad Hijab was there and he was trying to draw the people away, he wasn't aware of these variants and so was stunted.
He consulted Yasir about this variants and he started talking about these concept, stating how this is usually kept close to the Chest in the eastern side of Islam and not talked about, leading to the infamous 'holes in the narrative ' before trying to change the topic.
But that's just my opinion.
Really great work. Your presentation proves the basic message of Islam and the Koran
There is a channel Useful Charts that talks about the origins of the Qur'an and concludes that much of it is ancient legends and stories summarised orally and then retold and re-summarised by someone. This would account for all the garbled stories of the prophets that got into the Qur'an. Also apocryphal stories and pseudo-gospels circulating at the time of Muhammad, who being illiterate, believed they were in the Bible. The Qur'an itself tells us that the reciter of the Qur'an was accused of 'telling legends of the ancients' which ties up perfectly with Muhammad being the reciter, having scribes to write it down, and having men like Salman the Persian compile and edit it for years after his death.
the Prophet Muhammed is a fictional character.
My son
Answer no. 1 quran isn't about ancient legends or the stories of ancient legends weren't copied in quran or summarised . Quran reveals the things which history has been thirst for . It reveals about babylonians . And the miraculous incidents , word miracles golden ratio etc.. prove u wrong David
2. It wasn't compiled by salman the Persian . Arabs were illeterate but Allah taught quran to muhammad peace be upon him and then he told this to his companions . Now do u want to tell that salman the Persian knew more quran than muhammad saw ????
If so then today quran wouldn't exist as no one could have written it
Think about it ..
3. You made contradiction now as u said quran was compiled by someone
And later mentioned salman wrote it
4. You are bullshit
That is all
And give me the verse which tells reciter of Quran was accused of telling legends of ancients
Give me the verse son
@@hussainillahi3465 Fun fact. All scriptures including the Quran came out of the mouths of men and were written down by the hands of men and were compiled and edited by yet other men. Get over it. 😁
@@hussainillahi3465 Several instances of the phrase 'tales of the ancients' in the Quran, bro. Just google it. 😁
Muslim, where are your SIN evidence?
Hey Thomas, I really would like to know where exactly in the Quran the parallel between Pharaoh and Khosrow is drawn. This is extremely interesting for me and I would love to get an answer to that!
As always thank you for your work!
Great question let me write a comment about this as well hoping he picks up.
@@youtubeuser1993 dont think he will ever answer. Dont even know if he is still alive tbh.
@@MONKEYDUDE2701 I hope in an epic comback!
@@MONKEYDUDE2701I think Thomas is Mr. Luxenberg himself
@@mekore could very well be tbh
Vielen Danke for the interesting presentation Thomas. If the proto Koran was written by Arabs then were the Syriac people who were moved to Merv and Persia considered Arabs? Also what about the Sana'a manuscript which could be a proto Koran and dated early 8th century (7th century by Muslims), was this developed separately with different Surah from the Merv proto Koran?
The deportees were a mix of Arabs, Jews, Aramaeans and Greeks. But there were many Arabs already living in Persia, even as far as Merv. It was a major trading place which attracted people from everywhere. Through the deportees, these people would be confronted with Christianity and it seems like many Arab tribes (if not most of them) within Persia converted to a Syrian form of Christianity which was anti-Trinitarian.
As for the Sanaa Manuscript, we don't have enough of it to make a definitive statement, but it's clearly not the earliest form of the Proto-Koran. We're at least well on the way to the Koran we know today.
You are right in bringing up old Quranic manuscripts as an objection to the hypothesis of the merv origin of Islam. You see when hobbiest "historians" go wild in their imaginations and tell us their speculative hypotheses, we as commentators and viewers of some of those speculative videos have to wrestle with the immediately obvious problems and objections that real physical evidence pose. Indeed what do we do with manuscripts discovered elsewhere and far away from the speculative origins of Islam? The Sanaa manuscripts have been carbon dated, studied, etc. and they certainly attest to the existence of early Islam, i.e. proto-quran in the Arabian peninsula. If the proto-Quran was in Merv then why can't we find some hard evidence to support that? Why can't we find a similar inscription such as that of the dome of the rock? Of course they'd tell you Ibn Marwan and later Muslims have erased all traces; how convenient.
@@khaledalothman4314 brother u muslim ??
I think you forgot to put the pictures of the coins from Abdul Malik era in this superb presentation.
This video points to a key piece of the puzzle, thank you
Excellent Thomas thank you .
Hi Thomas, are you using machine learning do detect some context or relation of verses. Especially for Syro-Aramaic reading the quran analysis with ML is very suitable. You will detect some relation which is not considered by manual research.
But the Topkapi Koran is dated 740-750 and is very nearly a complete Koran?
In the Quran I’ve seen Jewish mysticism, cave of treasures, apocalypse of Abraham, targum Sheba, even some Talmud, Sanhedrin Mishnah 4:5 is where they got the surah almaidah 5:32 , and almaidah 110 is from the gnostic infancy gospel of Thomas
One of the most famous Rabbi's alive would agree with you. And he's also say that Muslims and Jews worship the same 1 true god. . Unlike Christians. And btw. .I was born in Syria. . My whole family is orthodox christian. . Before you accuse me of picking sides. His name is Tovia Singer
@@friedpickles342 he is a lier. And scare if debating
All very plausible. Good work sir.
This is Brilliant Bravo !💯
Thanks for this very interesting video series.
I have not yet read his book, but was Christoph Luxenberg himself not convinced that the (proto) Quran was written in 'Aramaic-Arabic hybrid' that was spoken near Mecca?
Ive never heard such expertise on the formation of the quran and islam
Excellent presentation, it complements Dr. Jay Smith et al.
Fascinating research, compilation and presentation - TQ for sharing with the world Thomas, Dr.Gunther Luling, Prof Cristoph L ..Prof Dan Brubaker & all✌💦🙏 Cheers from Borneo 👣🌏✨
so it started with good intentions and it ended in peaceful beheadings
Thomas the LEGEND !
Very interesting. So how come Merv (Central Asia) and Near East (Palestine) were a same political entity at the end of the 7th century when Abd el Malik (coming from Merv) was ruling in Jerusalem and Damascus?
We will get to that in the next video 😉
Hello. What are your thoughts about the Sanaa yemen palimpsest? Do you have a video on that topic? Thank you
Check out my 3 Minute Quran study playlist. The third and fourth episode are on the Sanaa manuscript.
Thank you so much for a wonderful and invaluable series! Regarding Merv, you say that we do not have a "smoking gun" with respect to it. However, by noting that the early coins refer to Abd al Malik Marwan (and not as 'ibn Marwan'), wouldn't those coins (showing Abd al Malik's origin, and not his father's name) be that smoking gun? Wouldn't the addition of the "ibn" to his name be an attempt to hide his origin? Forgive me, but I am wondering why you are not more confident based on the coins? Thank you again.
Thank you for your kind words. You are of course correct that the coins are very strong evidence. But I always try to be careful. There’s always a chance of other possible explanations being true and I want to be as honest as I can. Only then can I be credible.
Despite all of the great evidence, the Merven origin is still one of the more speculative parts of my presentations. Personally, I’d say the likelihood is greater than 50%, but it’s not 99% either. It’s somewhere in between. That is really good, but not good enough to ignore other possibilities.
@@TAlexander thanks for maintaining high academic standards. The world needs to get this right.
Hi Thomas, 1. Is there a coin with full name Abdl Malik Marwan on it either in Arabic or Pahlavi?
2. Has the city of Harran been considered as another candidate? The amazing thing about Harran is that Abdl Malik has a coin with Muhammad on it and no Rasul Allah minted in Harran. Also Harran had a pagan population even till 10th century AD! And Harran has an Abraham connection too.
So Islam comes from Christianity : interesting !
Syrian Christianity
Anti trinitarian christian Heresy
@@JesusisaMuslim islam is a flat tyre now.
@@JesusisaMuslim what you say contradict Islam histtory.
@@JesusisaMuslim Fastest breeding religion, Christianity is growing in Iran, Indonesia even in China. What are you talking about? LMAO.
What is the script of the earliest Quran manuscripts? I've heard it's Hijazi and then Kufic.
Yes, the oldest known manuscripts are written in Hijazi script. They are the Sanaa Manuscript, the Tübingen Fragment and BnF Arabe 328(c).
@@TAlexander why hijazi script, if the proto-quran was being put together in mesopotamia or central-asian region? Is it because of Nabataean influence on classical Arabic?
@@roshlew6994 It's called "hijazi script" but that doesn't mean that it comes from the Hejaz. I've got a "3 Minute Quran Study" episode on the issue. It's simply the earliest Arabic script.
Having said that, Christoph Luxenberg identified some scribal errors which can only be explained if we assume that the proto-Quran was originally written in Arabic, but using the Aramaic script - at least in part. Only later was it then transcribed into Arabic script. I went over this in a previous episode.
I don't see how you get the catholic cult in the 1st century AD Thomas. The Roman 'church ' was invented by Constantine in the 4th century.
if -an means from (a place/town), what about coins of APDALA(-I) ZUBYL-AN ?
According to Volker Popp, of the two "-AN" suffixes of MRW-AN-AN the first one is the genitive case, which could point to a father. But the second one is the plural ending which rules out a father and instead points to a people or tribe.
Hello Thomas.
I tend to believe that the location in which Islam started is where you have suggested. HOWEVER, as far as the quibla of old mosques, Gibsons shows they are facing Petra. EVEN IF, I myself do not believe that is where Islam started, HOWEVER the quibla of those various mosques do seem to point at Petra.
Where do you think the quiblas point to?
So how/why did Abdul Malik go from Merv to Damascus
what about Petra, do you think they changed the city of their center toward south and established a mekke today
Thomas, can you explain why the inarah school think buddhism influenced islam (theologically), arent they theologically diametrical? Buddhism does not believe in the last day, aren't they? Any documents that solidify this buddhism co-location/settlement requirement?
I’ve never read anything about theological influences. It’s more about practice. Certain rules and prescriptions. I went over some of them in the previous video.
What are buddhist influences of the Quran ?
I go into it in the previous video
islame what a beautiful religion 🕋🙏😭
Bukhari 5133: “the Prophet (🐷) married her [Aisha] 👶when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old
This is a perfect example of an ad hominem argument. ALL religious organisations provide happy hunting grounds for paedophiles and other kinds of predators, not just Islam.
We don't adduce your violent crimes, before and after your involvement with Pegida, as evidence for or against your neo- and palaeo- fascist ideas, because that would be irrelevant.
not authentic. According to all hadith calculations, Ayşe is at least 15 years old. other wives are already old.
@@furkancimen3145
Yes, we believe your taq-iyya and in your imaginary hadith
@@jxcess3891 dude i don't care about you.
All I'm going to tell you is this. If the hadiths come from a single narrator, they are not authentic. The 6-9 hadith is like that. What you believe is none of my business.
@@furkancimen3145
Hishām ibn ʿUrwa is the narrator most commonly mentioned in the ḥadīth placing her at six and nine. Some argue that Hishām was the only one to narrate this, weakening the strength of the ḥadīth since if this was common knowledge, then many more narrators would have mentioned the age of ʿĀʾisha. However, this is a fallacy since there are other narrators who narrate this such as al-Aswad ibn Yazīd, Abī Salama ibn ʿAbd al-Raḥmān, and others.
Thank you!
ausgezeichnet!!
Naturalistic explanation of origin of islam
I don't think there is any verse in the Quran that against Trinitarian. For example, Qs 5:72-73, alleged to be anti-Trinitarian verse. In fact, that particular verse criticize certain heretical Christian Arab community, who believe in collyridianism. They believe that allah, Isa and Maryam are three god.
@@JesusisaMuslim 100% nonsense and bullshit. In fact, Qs 4:171 teach Trinity:
Qs 4:171 (literal translation)
You The Book`s people, do not exaggerate the limit in your religion, and do not say on God except the truth , but the Messiah, Jesus, *Mary`s son God`s messenger and His word He threw it away to Mary, and Spirit from Him*
According to this ayat, Jesus was Kalimatullah and Ruhullah. In order to decieve people, your ulama put word in bracket (created) and (Trinity) in order to cheat people to believe, that verse speak about Jesus "creature" and about Trinity. You are bullshit and deceiver just like your imam.
Islam is against Nestorian, Arian, Maryama which all have 3 gods : Isa, Maryam and Allah.
Islam is not against Christian or Trinity. The Quran never even mention Trinity (Allah, Kalimatullah, Ruhullah).
The gospels support triethism.
@@majeromajero7330 The gospels support triethism.
@@furkancimen3145 not true. Trinity is not the same with tritheism.
Hey what's the Quranic reference to Khosrow as Pharaoh?
This is my fourth time rewatching the whole series. Merv makes more sense than mesopotamia. Though the bulk of the Arabs were mesopotamian arabs. Well, anyways, the Quran has a shift towards the east in the centuries. Many early ideas come from west, Israel, Syria... but the clear zoroastrian, bhuddist influences, the polemics against the Nestorian church of IranShahr and the east.
Though, doesn't the real coding of the Bhuddist practice cone from the later Sunnah? The Sunnah (written in the late 9th century but probably the early 10th) was written by people as Bukhari or Muslim and other 4 important ones (or at least the schools they created). These dudes ALL are persians from greater Khorasan, which had very strong Bhuddist influences. So, are there any other bhuddist influences in Islam? How strong are the ones in the Quran? Or is most of it from later centuries?
hi Thomas,
How are you sure that Mecca, or really the city that the Umar and his fighters come from is not in Eastern Syria?
I believe this is some contemporary text calling a place Mecca in Eastern Syria somewhere around the Khabur river.
What makes you think that these Bhuddist and Zoroastrian influences are not imports from the Abbasid period and that the Umayad version of 'Chrislam' was much more Judeo Christian that modern Islam as we expect it to be?
How did you come to the conclusion that Marwan means from Merv?
Instead of "Buddhist" influence...I'd rather term it as "Indic" influence....which encompass Buddhism and other traditions such as Sramana and vedic religions. If you pay attention to how Muslims pray....they are quite similar to yogic postures, which has no precedent in the Arabian peninsula. (Besides the shaving thingy (Buddhist influence) you mentioned in your previous videos).
Haha the speculation is funny in this video. just look at the hadith and you will know how the magnificient Quran has been memorized through relevation, and from there on written down on pages and then compiled in a book. For you is your way, for me is my way.
Sorry, in science there is no your way, my way. Where are your arguments for "my way"?
@@rasmuszaurins7233 dont see any references in this “scientific” PowerPoint presentation.
@mysotiras 09 Some of the Bukhari hadiths were written as late as the 17th century, by Ottomans.
How reliable are the Hadiths? Even Islamic scholars have problems with this
@@denecroxford2475 the hadiths are fiction
Thank you Thomas we are learning a lot with you.
Another anomaly that I keep pointing to Muslims is the fact that most of the initials scholars who wrote the SIN ( boukhari, muslim.....) came from eastern Persia and that is a fact that even Muslims do not deny. That could mean that not only Islam started there but it actually evolved for a while before moving to the west. What do you think ?
Yes, it makes sense, though at that point we‘re already centuries down the line. It could be that this evolution from Christian sect to Islam also came from the East.
Thank you very much..
it was very organised, especially the timeline, which the only thing will remain in memory.
Now....let's make things more interesting by studying politics side during that period between Byzantine & Persians. What the story behind merry Byzantine Kings to Parsians Kings cristian woman? Was Parsian under control from Byzantine imperior ?
Why does zaoresm need to create a new religion? Is there a problem between Parsian rulers and zaoresm leaders?
Was the " black stone"(God sent fire from the sky) a part of a zaoresm spiritual belief system?
Waiting for your study with a petionate....
I appreciate your effort very much...
I’m open minded, but I also want to know how this merges with known history. For starters there were Fitnas (civil wars, and according to the received history both sides fought over who inherits the mantle of the Arab empire, descendants of Mohammed or non-descendants of Mohammed, if the Mohammed narrative is not true, then did those wars and their battles occur or not?) - also we have the writings of John of Damascus criticizing Islam, or at least Mohammed. John was a scholar who was a son of a scholar, who reportedly worked for Mu’awiya. Mu’awiya, the received history says, was both a secretary for Mohammed and the son of Abu Sufyan - Sufyan was Mohammed’s chief enemy for roughly 20 years according to the received history. What in the old narrative is verifiable history and how does this new narrative merge with that?
The closer we get to the Abbasids, the more the two histories converge. By the time of Mu’awiya, we’re already pretty close. Before Mu’awiya, most of the standard Islamic narrative is at least questionable, often outright constructed.
Could you tell us about Alevite? What did the early folk of Alevite think of the proto Koran?
Hi Thomas great video...i just have a small doubt...you said that Khosru 1 deported groups of Arab christians to eastern persia...but how could these small arab christians after the Byzantine-Sassanian war take over the whole middleast and persia??? If their number was small...how could they rule over much more bigger population 🤔
There were always Arabs in Persia. They weren't a small group. Particularly the Euphrates valley was largely Arab. I'll get into that in a little more detail in the upcoming videos.
The point of these deportations is rather to explain how Christianity could spread rapidly in Persia. The Sasanians imported Christian kernels and distributed them throughout their country. Shapur I and Khosrow I were the most prolific deporters, but there were deportations throughout the centuries. Hundreds of thousands were deported, which is a significant number given the overall world population of the time.
@@TAlexander ohk thanks for the clarification...
@@TAlexander you did explain the spread of Christianity in Merv (abdul malik origin). However, abdul malik was a warlord so he will be where his troops are. If he instructed Quran to be written, it will be near where he was. And remember than there were also southern arabia/African influence on the Quran. It might have been added later, but quran will not be easily accepted by the Southern Arab if they knew it came from persia. Also, hajj resembles Hinduism rather than Buddhism.
@@AndiWidjaja The hajj with its shaven heads and two pieces of white cloth was an ancient pagan planetary ritual more like Hinduism than anything to do with Buddhism.
@@AndiWidjaja The Qur'an existed in oral form and in pieces of writing from the time of Muhammad. It was not compiled and edited until after his death in 632CE by his followers. Harvard scholars quote a letter of Leo the Isaurian in 718CE speaking contemptuously of the Quran saying 'We know of a certain Hajjaj, governor of Persia, who replaced your writings with his own. A few of Abu Turab's works escaped. Hajjaj could not make them disappear completely.' The Harvard scholars reckon that it was this Hajjaj who was the first to try putting in diacritical marks rather than altering the whole thing.
Copyright not reserved before.
Synthesis efforts in the field of Islamic studies are still very rare. We must therefore welcome with sympathy any attempt such as this, especially since the method followed seems to me to be one of the best. Indeed, it is very similar to the one that allowed Thomas Looney to challenge the orthodox thesis on Shakespeare and to identify the most likely author, Edward de Vere, resulting in a complete renewal of the Shakespearean studies. Another merit of this synthesis is that it definitively distances us from the traditional narrative, essentially a mytho-theological narrative, whose historical value is very weak if not null.
I disagree Marwan means from Moriah not from Merv.
Im still not sure if the received Quran really attacs the Trinity. bc 1. the term (Thalouth) nowhere appears, nor the concept of Uqnoum (Persona, and the Holy Spirit is nowhere really defined). it says Dont say Three! and mentions the concept of Tritheism (Allah with Maryam and 3isa as three gods).
the main purpose is to deny the Divinity of Christ. or in other terms "... but Jesus is not God!" hhh
Yes. They seem to have encountered tritheism and clearly rejected it. But by extension, with the rejection of the divinity of christ they also reject the Trinity.
@@JesusisaMuslim this surah confirms the trinity
The gospels support triethism.
@@furkancimen3145 Mary as Godess ? ok show me !
@@Peter-xf9jy Did I say they call Mary God? read properly. In the New Testament, Jesus and God are not of the same essence. 2 different gods. they have a hierarchy. they are talking to each other. do you understand ? I know your explanation. I know the example of the sun. But I don't think the book explains that. The bible is clearly polytheistic.
Thomas you have done intensive research on the subject. But question remains why earlier ayats are found on skin , leather, bones etc but not on the paper. Were they so poor unable to manage paper and ink. Until we find answers to these questions no convulsions can be drawn. Secondly if we assume only oral text were prevalent then it should have been very rare. It couldn't be popular. Limited to very small number of people. Need more convincing evidence.
We don't know that the early aya were found on skins, wood, etc. That's the story we're told centuries after the fact.
But of course the proto-Quran would have been very rare and confined to a small group of people.
Too far away. Iraq is a much more probable location. You have to keep in mind that there is Yemeni lore also in the Quran. As for the Buddhist traditions in Islam, it doesn’t require the need for the community to live amongst Buddhists. They can easily acquire the traditions without direct contact
agree. Even if Abdul Malik origin was from Merv, as a warlord, he will be where his troops is, so if the proto-quran was written under his instructions, it's more likely it was written either in Syria or around previous Mesopotamia area.
On the hajj, it is more likely from Hinduism rather than Buddhism. There is nothing in Buddhism that resemble anything in Islam.
Mesopotamia (Babylon, Ctesiphon, etc…) was long a capital city over lands that had been Buddhist for nearly a millennia, that’s is, Western Pakistan and Afghanistan. As such we can expect that there was plenty of Buddhist representation in Babylon/Ctesiphon areas. Also, Babylon had been a center of Jewish legal scholarship since 500 bc. Jesus discussion concerning Love God+Love Neighbor, was only recently established concept by the great Jewish law scholar, Hillel. Hillel was from Babylon and moved to Palestine only later. As a capital city, it was a place where ideas from the periphery might commingle. The monastic tradition in Christianity probably comes from Christian hermits, such as St. Anthony in Egypt. But such hermitage probably comes from Buddhist & Hindu elements that found their way to Babylon/Ctesiphon. Hindu concept of creation and God is similar to Judaic except the Godhead is split into many deities and creation is not considered “good”, its considered a kind of hell. A soul in Hinduism/Buddhism then seeks to renounce the world to escape it and the endless cycle of reincarnation. Reincarnation only ends by reunion with the Godhead. That is done by separation and renouncing the world and materialism. Buddha did the same thing and while meditating in isolation, it is said he found enlightenment and a short cut to reunion with the Godhead. So this tradition found its way to the Middle East by way of Ctesiphon/Babylon. John the Baptist’s living in the wilderness and living off of locust may have been following this tradition. Later, in Europe, they created monasteries so that monks lived in cloisters instead of total isolation.
@@kaneinkansas Buddhism reached Mesopotamia, maybe but Buddhism certainly reached persia. Mesotomia people are Buddhists, big jokes. Provide your source of evidence please?
The war of elephant story is a clear indication of Hinduism.
When Buddhism spread, war stopped. This happened in China and, south east Asia, and to certain extend, India. This was the reason the barbaric foreigners took over those lands because the people won't fight.
The nothern Arabia people is war mongering. Quran has nothing peaceful. So, people can make any theories for fame, but please keep some common sense.
@@AndiWidjaja I'm sorry I can't remember where I read this. I'm sure over the years I've read over a hundred books dealing with various and collateral subjects. But it is also self evident, is it not? When an Empire controls vast regions, elements of the various provinces conquered end up in the capital for various reasons, as merchans, as slaves, as emissaries bearing tribute or tax receipts, or as consultants to advise conquering forces on how to best govern and so on. I'm not saying that Mesopotamia or even parts of it converted to Buddhism, I am saying that they were exposed to Buddhist ideas and concepts, as well as other ideas such as Zoroastrianism from Persia and Judaism from Judea and so forth. Bablyon became a center for Jewish legal studies for nearly a millenium, yet it would be wrong to say that Babylon was ever predominantly Jewish. The area was exposed to a lot of ideas from every direction.
Consequently I'm sure a few Buddhist, and probably more than a few, showed up in the capital (Bablyon/Ctesiphon) and their unique ideas and methodologies became transmitted to the new, local audiences. To a few personalities, living the life of an aesthetic hermit dedicate to a theology was something that appealed to them. Thus was born monks living as hermits in the desert and the like.
Over the centuries, Mesopotamian based empires conquered both east and west. Babylon/Ctesiphon was then a natural center from where ideas drifted to and then moved out from various directions - this is probably true for over a millennium beginning with the New Babylonian empire (quickly followed up by the Achaemenid Persian Empire, then the Hellenic, and later Parthian and eventually Sassanian states).
The great Jewish Legal Scholar, Hillel came from Babylonia, but spent much of his career in Roman Judea only a few years or a decade before Jesus. In regard to ideas, he functioned as a kind of early messenger of ideas that Jesus would expand upon. Another such idea that spread along this corridor was Manicheism. Mani used elements of Zoroastrianism and Christianity. The great theologian Augustine followed Manicheism before he converted to Christianity and for a time it was very popular with Roman soldiers (again, I can't remember where I read that).
Another account I read is that the Khazars, a Turkish group that controlled the area north of the Black and Caspian Seas, and thus one of the routes which the Silk road passed through, caught between Christian Byzantium and Arab Muslims, opted to convert to Judaism - which perhaps was an attempt to be neutral to facilitate trade. At any rate, the Khazar Khan requested that Jewish teachers/scholars be sent to him from Babylon which even in late antiquity was still a center of Jewish legal studies.
To say that the Babylonians or Persians of Ctesiphon were ignorant of Buddhism would be highly, highly unlikely. Just as unlikely is that some ideas of Buddhism didn't find their way into other aesthetic or religious ideas to various people. I'm a Christian, but I would never deny that Buddhism has lots of interesting &/or good ideas, not all I would agree with, but interesting none-the-less (an example is that Judeao-Christians believe creation and the world created is basically good, according to early chapters of Genesis. Buddhist and Hinduism generally believes creation, because of suffering, is something to be transcended or escaped from and so doesn't look as optimistically or see creation as being so good. One can imagine people living in exposure to these ideas wondering about them and working them over an occassionally something new popped out. Hermits was likely one of these ideas, which later lead to monasteries in the west). I just think this is common sense view of the process of history and geography.
@@kaneinkansas thanks for the explanation, I think I was mistaken in interpreting your statement. I thought you said that babylon was a capital for Buddhism. I guess it's common knowledge about the Silk Road, and certainly Buddhism spread along the Silk Road.
It's true that Christianity does have a lot in common with Buddhism. In fact many Buddhists consider Jesus is simply one of the Buddha.
However, in regard to eslam, eventhough eslam started as an anti-trinitarian Christian cult, but it was heretical.
They differ in area where there are similarity between Christians and Buddhism, ie. Souls, Incarnations, Love your neighbour, Introspection, Happiness, Lifelong journey, Monastery, etc.
So, I don't agree with Tjomas speculation that eslam copied the hajj rituals from Buddhism. It doesn't make any sense, not today, not in the past. The white clothes he used as evidence is exactly the Hindu wear. To be more precise, it's Indian clothing. Buddhism came from India so it's nothing strange that some monks happen to wear the white clothes as well. Majority of Buddhist monks wear yellow/orange clothes.
Oo no . ... is still growing and has proven Christianity in all debates
God bless Jesus and Muhammad forever
What about Petra?
I'm not sold on the Petra hypothesis. I find the Jerusalem hypothesis more plausible.
However, neither hypothesis is incompatible with what I've presented here. Petra may well have been a city of great importance to the Arabs. But it wouldn't have played a role in the creation of this precursor to the Quran which I am talking about. But it could still have taken the role as a major holy site.
@@TAlexander Petra's relevance is the qibla direction. Islam did indeed combine elements from various religions: Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism - and also pagan rock-worship.
@@TAlexander
I do not know if you will discuss the directions of the quiblas.
Gibson theory seems plausible on that point. What do your studies suggest as far as tge directions of the quiblas?
THe veses about shaving head were later interpolations in the Abbasids period.
Your theory has holes in it !
This does not explain the verses of hat were “ revealed “ to Muhammad when he was in Mecca , and Medina , ( if he was there at all ) , I mean each verse has an occasion for revelation, … so did he get help from monks or did he do it all by himself ?
was Quran put together after Muhammad and then it was made as if he received the revelation, ? all his biography and Islamic history are fake ?
Indeed. Either Muhammad didn’t exist at all, or if he did, he wouldn’t be recognisable compared to the Muhammad of Islamic legend to the point that he might as well not have existed.
Sira and Sunna are for the most part the result of exercises in exegesis, not biographical accounts.
This almost has to come from montanism. Montanus claimed to be “Ahmad”. He claimed the exact prophecy of the Quran.
I would think that hagareens were Ibrahimits as were Mahmad and Muawiya, mahmet is probably was an ibrahimist on the right way as mentioned by Sebeos and qoran versus on Ibrahim, hanif, musalam(correct),. He is the warlord who united all using common ancestor, Ibrahim to liberate the land ( he might be historical Umar), he had writers who used existing old theology in Syria and Iraq that is in harmony with their Ibrahimic believes, I think Ali and Salman are the composers as mentioned in Leo's letter. Ali and Salman composed pages by adding an opening to suras as words from god then pasting paragraphs from old Arabic profits in nabatéens area as well as the debates of the anti trinitarian with minority christians in Persia, war suras are written by Umar, Jenn suras were added by Umar too to make pagans join the call of the moumenoun and so on..accordingly, I see an ibrahimist leader who claims he is profit as god guides his ideas and he is selecting all literature in the context of nabatea and Persia from the 4th to the 6th century that matches what he believes including the old Arabic profits, anti trinitarians, gnostic imagery ....to justify his believes...these ibrahimists are mentioned by sozomon, since trinitarians and Jews contradicts with the ibrahimists and didn't join the new call, they were considered enemies. Nastorians were considered freinds with almoumenoon until nestorians joined the trinitarians...Ali might have been a friend nestorian that most of his writing were excluded later on by the ibrahimist alhajaj
Have you made a series about the Jewish bible? And why Jews don't believe in Jesus at all? At least Muslims believe in Jesus as a prophet
Mesianic Jew believe Trinity in the Tanakh
@@DusTman761 There is no trinity in the tanah. Please read this on Jewish websites.
If I had been deported over and over then given a patsy in charge of religion I guess I would react harshly as well - that was my thought before I even watched this series.
Montanus is the only other person that fits the “Ahmad”. Title that is given to Mohammed. Montanus and Mohammed have alot of odd similarities. He claimed to be the successive prophet and leader of the Christian movment. Etc. Montanus claimed to be the “Ahmad” from the gospel of John. Word for word what is claimed in the Quran. Among other refrences to the book or revelation through the Quran. This text would fit Montanus in many ways. The montanist were around until after 600 ad. And they had poems and texts written by the prophet Montanus. Montanus was claiming to be the same coming prophet in the Quran; also they followed him as this leader from the book of revelation. He established a pilgrimage center; came out of idolatry. People accused him of being a mad poet. Etc.
(I haven't checked if others have already said this.) I'm thinking that your use of the word "deportations" isn't very intuitive. I wonder if "forced migrations" would be a better choice.
For me, "deportations" are when the rulers/government of a country force people to leave that country. It sounds like you are using it for when they force people to move within a country (or into it?).
PROFESSOR DANIEL BIRNSTIEL : The Pahlavi legend "APD'LMLIK-i-MRWânân" (Popp's rendering) which appears on coins minted there and which has been read as Abd al-Malik Bin Marwân (Abd al-Malik, the son of Marwân), is taken to mean "Abd al-Malik from the people of Merv".
Popp takes this as proof that Merv was a centre of a type of a "traditional" Christianity that had been moved from Mesopotamia.
However, the reading of "i-MRWânân" as "from the people of Merv" is impossible, since the Middle Persian suffix -ân is not used for the derivation of words denoting origin. On the other hand, the reading "Son of Marân" is not only possible, but, moreover, actually represents the only way to render this meaning in Pahlavi.
IM AN EX MUSLIM, BUT THE INARAH WORK IS NOTHING BUT SCIENCE FICTION
Voler Popp angered other historians because he did not accept their dating of the coins (and that for good reasons).
However, Scientist can come to different conclusions and still have valid Arguments.
Inarah has a huge article Article (german) by Popp, he points out several things including Inscriptions on buildings.
Popp is not much concerned about the Quran but focuses on the political Development in Persia and Syria.
So calling Inarah's work "science fiction" is not realy helpful.
@@slippingsnake Popp is not a historian, and his coins readings is full of mistakes. i think muhammad did exist. he stole old texts from jews and christians and composed his quran. and mecca ist probably in Petra. the theory of Dan Gibson is much more powerful i think. The inarah narrative is based on nothing. No evidence, all of it is false interpretations
Oh yes, I was wondering how they relate Abd al-Malik Ibn Marwan to be from Merv!, because this is impossible, if he is from Merv, his nisba must have been Abd al-Malik Al- Marwazi, not Ibn Marwan
@@mimo7567 No contemporary evidence has been found of the Prophet Muhammed but we know that this person is made up from something. Firstly the title Muhammed is given to Christ and secondly that some warlord that took over Jerusalem was noted as a prophet and may signify some historical background to take notice of. The idea that Merv is the place the Proto-Quran was written is not far-fetched. Dan Gibson made a case for Nabatean origin of the religion and the location of Mecca in Petra. There is no strong evidence for that in contemporary sources. "Contemporary" means from 590 - 630.
@@mimo7567 "...i think muhammad did exist...."
I think this is a wrong approach.
I can't dismiss your Arguments, but by looking for "APD'LMLIK-i-MRWânân" I've found the Prof. Birnstiel article and in there he also points out:
"...Anders hingegen der Konsensus der Islamwissenschaft: Hier wird der islamische Traditionsbericht als im Großen und Ganzen historisch korrekt betrachtet und von der historischen Existenz Muhammads ausgegangen...."
or short:
Consensus of islamic science sees islamic traditions as mostly authentic...
yup, moon splitting and a flying donkey, good job.
My question is: how does the standard islamic narrative fit into the historical timeline, the war between Byzanz and persia and the Rise of the Arabs.
By now I'm mostly convinced that they don't match at all but that there is another explenation.
Have you read about the "Era of the arabs" and the
"Greek Inscription In The Baths Of Hammat Gader, 42 AH / 662-63 CE"
and how a greek Inscription is connected to the arabs?
:)
Where are the original koranic materials stored since Allah will not allow any form of alterations
Just because Marwan sounds like "Marw", which by the way also has another meaning in Arabic other than that city, and because the Quran mentions fruits and plants, and seemingly Buddhists influences are in some Islamic rituals, doesn't mean we'd have to completely relocate the place of origin of Islam so far away from the places in which real physical evidence attesting to the early existence of Islam reside. The Quran mentions gardens and vegetation in the context of a heavenly paradise (which would make sense as reward for desert dwelling people!) , and it also mentions severe draught, desert mirages, dates, and camels which is obviously more associated with deserts. Any plantation or agricultural reference in the Quran is obviously mentioned in the context of God's capabilities and the lure of paradise. If the receptors of the Quran had already been living in gardens and plant rich areas, those references would've been unimpressive for them. I am sure desert dwellers are not completely ignorant of the riches of more abundant areas nearby. Just as much as I'm sure they were not completely ignorant of Christian, Jewish, Zoastrian, and Hindu/Buddhist religions and rituals.
Non-sense.
We need ACTUAL evidence, not made up stories of" paradise" to give location of where Islam was established.
The green and lushious land is NOT description of desert.
The " paradise" thing is just YOUR FANTASY, not backed by HISTORICAL EVIDENCE of actual LAND.
@@cognitiveblues stories of paradise are part of the Quran. This is not something I'm making up. You're obviously ignorant of it. Look it up; it's full of it. Secondly there is no where in the Quran where it explicitly mentions the lush green land as the specific place of the people towards whom the message is directed. It says "humans" in general should look at how god in general created greenery. Or, it's part of a context of an ancient story of other peoples.
You are talking logic that gets in the way of their fantasy making.
The Mongol Invasions certainly did wipe many cities off the map.
12:40 considering you are talking about the Greek church here, it would have made much more sense to label them as Orthodox to avoid confusion. Nevertheless excellent video
Catholic and Orthodox were the same at this stage. Catholic is a Greek word. Thomas even mentioned that this church was Greek and Latin, but he then called it Greek because that was one of the cultures in the middle east
All name to one God .
You have seen him in many forms so you call him .
But muslims havent seen him so they call as simply "GOD" in all languages
Bagwan in hindi , Allah in Arabic ,lord in english.
Because muslims have to speak only truth . So it force us to tell we havent seen him. You know we are the late generation (God missed us or we missed Him)
I dont know.
The quran can not be older than the 7th century because it was heavily influenced by the Talmud which was compiled during the 7th century.
If the Qur'an was written over centuries, why is it so garbled and contradictory? Why wasnt it edited properly?
Because it was originally written in a mixed Aramaic/Arabic language used by the deportees at the time it was written, and without diacritics and points to distinguish certain consonants. By the time the Quran was "gathered" (compiled) as an official document, no one spoke this language any longer and the Quran was basically unreadable to anyone. It was at this point that many fake stories were invented as tafsir to explain passages that made no sense. The editing was done by Arabic speakers who didnt understand what was in front of them
Muslim source said Quraish from Mecca often travel to Syria and Yemen for trade, although they are located on the desert they know the world
This hypotheses falls apart for 2 main reasons 1 the description of Muhammad’s epileptic seizures is two accurate for someone from before modern medicine to fake.
Number 2 people travel especially religious teachers.
It’s likely that he learned stuff for years from many different traveling religious masters. Likely all the sources you said can be found anywhere on the silk road. There is tons of stuff about desert caravans. Preachers would have been coming into and out of every town on the silk road. It’s likely this is where Muhammad learned all his stuff.
Your stuff is really interesting but your fighting to make this conclusion that this man did not exist but its almost certain there was an epileptic preacher who made all these utterances during his seizures. People wrote these down. As time went on there was a bunch of fakers who basically copied Muhammads “prophet hustle”. Then later someone took all these utterances from Muhammad and the copy cats and made the Koran. They then took a bunch of oral stories they had and matched them to the quotations as best they could.
This explains everything ur saying and is simpler. Its likely that anyone interested in religion and trade around this time would speak Aramaic so Muhammad most likely did. Language was much more messy than your thinking. Not like today with many standard dictionaries.
I like the way you are explaining history of Quranic origin, I love to shire my findings with you,
Who was Allah and who wrote Quran?
My understanding about big 4 religions, and combining of their ideology by Arabs about 1200 years ago as Quran, to control and make one international/ global empire and give them their new all in one combo religion as Islamic Quran.
Puran originally from Maha-Bharat , by Hanood ( idol worship, pagan, Hindu ) stated more then 3 thousands years ago by Emperor Ram’s son Lav ( al- Lah ) ( Brahama’s family) , it was written on iron tablets in Kushala.
Turat = toura = Jewish book , started by Israeli kings ( children of Abrahim original from from Iraq 🇮🇶) .
Bible = ingeel= started by Julius Cesar ( Jesus) brother of James Cesar ( Isa ibni Maryam) , in Rome ( Italy 🇮🇹) , about 2 thousands years ago, also know as christianity.
Zuboor, started by Iran 🇮🇷, by Zurtush, also know as fire worship, parsi, about 3 thousands years ago. Noor and nimaz from this religion.
as many emperor lived / died , in India and many other empires, smaller states/ countries were too in any given time frame of history, like , Iran , Israel , Iraq, Yaman , Egypt and many other European countries, and many war-lards waged wars and many religions were created by mostly king or Emperor as Empire constitution in beginning and some religions died very soon and few became international as empire grew and finally one of them given Quran as combo of older books added with a sex and war stories in it as some fabricated historical mistakes.
We know Mohammed, musa Isa or Jesus, Mosus , Zulu Qurnan and Zul- Kufil , in Quran are titles of some king in past history,
Isa is James Cesar, who was step Brother of Julius Cesar and known as Jesus in Biblical history. Muslims don’t know they were both sons of Roman emperor Cesar About 2 thousands years ago.
Mosus or Musa , is Uncil of James Cesar ( Isa son of Maryam) . Religion tell us , Musa existed 3 thousands years ago , I think it is a big lie , no historian ever recoded it . He was 2 thousands years ago , as he was uncle to Isa.
Mohammed is also a title from Sanskrit ( Hindi / Punjabi) language from India, in Quran ( Puran) it is written 4 time and ONLY Hamad is addressed some one , only once. Maha Hamad is title not a name,and , we have to read soura Maryam, according to it , I understood, Isa son of Maryam is Maha- Hamad. Muslims’ clam of a nabi in Arabic land in Makkah, 1400 years ago is fabricated story.
Dul- Qufal, was a god king , Buddha, from same family , of shiva- Rama empire from India, 2500 years ago.
Dul- Qurnan is known as Nabi in Quran and he was Emperor of Grace/ Egypt about 2300 years ago and known as Alexander or Al- Skinder / Skinder Unanni.
And Dul- Nouran is called to Mohammed’s richest friend Usman, who was Mohammed’s son in law , and Mohammed 2 daughters were married to him and both died very young age .
Most of Quranic stories are copied from Zurastarian’s religions from Iran ( Parsi religion = fire worshiper’s religion) , Roman history ( bible) and Quran called them Kase and kisra , ( Nasrani )
Some is copied from Jews as bani Israel, ( yahood = Jews ) ,
And lot of it from Hanood, Hanoods are Hindus from older Indian/ Pakistani area’s kings / Rajas strories as religions known as ,Puran, vades , Geeta’s , but Muslims and others real history , was put under the rug, so we can not understand real truth about religion and history.
Now main Question is who was Allah of Islam and where this name started?
Allah is a fabricated name of Arabic ideology called Islam, my understanding of , where Allah name came from and why it is also known as moon god in Egyptian history? We have to open pages of history of Asia and Europe about 3000 years ago, what was happening in India , Pakistan , Iran, Iraq , Israel , Egypt , Greece , Italy and many other known major countries back then. And need to understand who was super power and what was role of them in known planet earth then , according to know religions books and some deeper looking in history, we find some clues.
I found out emperor Rama from India was a very powerful Emperor, who was running a Continuation of a very big empir as a family kingship , for thousands and thousands years and most of kings from this empire are Hindus’ Bhagwan, like shiva , Kirisna, Manu, Buddha, Rama, Brahama etc, it might be more then 2 thousands years since Brahama ( Abraham/ Ibrahim / el / Gilgamesh seems one man story) time , Rama had 2 sons from Seeta , Lov and Kush ,
When Lov and Kush grew up , both became warlord as emperor Rama him self and added many far distance countries to their empire. We have historical fact , Israel was conquered by Rama’s son Lav , and known as Al - Lah in Arabic language or older language of that area and he made many shiva temples in all those countries were he went , one of that temple is Muslims Kabba with shiva idol, and shiva idol is broken many time but it has place in silver frame, and that black stone is called higra e Aswad , and going around 7 time of this black stone ( Hijjra e aswad ) , is short name of Hujj . You got it ? Higra to Hujj, it just a yearly festival of older time pagans ( Indian Hindus) , but with time some one change it to fabricated Islamic ideology. And Indian kings Purans became with added local stories and pronounced as Quran with Q .
Do you know , What is Hajj? Older Hindu Yatra, It is done by Muslims , once a year in Kabba, Makkah, Saudi Arabia.
Kabba , pagan temple( Hindu temple in Arabic land) , a Hindu pugari broke all other idols and told every one to just worship one idol in Kabba’s wall. And it was Shiva Lingam, we really don’t know , who made Kabba temple, but most probably, it was made 3 thousands years ago by Raja Lah son of Emperor Rama , when he conquered Israel and this side of continent , to expand Bhagwan / Empire of his father Rama , this same Lah who founded city Lahore, Pakistan by River Ravi in Iron Age. Also known as Al-Lah by Muslims.
I request, all intellectuals , who are interested in truth , please reply your opinion. And I am happy to talk about it more , why I got to my understanding.
is this idea at odd with dan gibsons hypothesis that mecca was petra?
Not necessarily. Though I prefer the Jerusalem hypothesis TBH.
@@TAlexander is there any idea of when mecca was 'inserted' into the proto-qauran?
Gibson was wrong.
@@fantasia55 yeah...... and?
Marwan come from Marwa ? I think the Arabic name from people from Marwa is Marwazi not Marwan like a muslim author named Al Marwazi , the Arabic pattern for original place is by adding i after the place name, like Imam Al Bukhari, from Bukhari, Imam Tirmidzi from Tirmidz , Al Mada'ini from Al Madain ( Ctesiphon in Arabic that Mean Cities )
Its Persian/Iranic. The -an is a plural form, and can in this case points to a tribal construct. Marwanan then would be a non-Arabic construction although in this theory Muawiya et al was a "emigrant" (hagarene)/ old believer and descended from Mesopotamian Arab Christians deported by the Sassanian Empire to Merv. The linguistics of the assertion arent as outlandish as you might think. In fact there are mixed Arabic/Persian constructions used to this day in Afghanistsan. One I can think of off hand would be the most notorious product of modern Afghanistan besides low quality heroin: The Taliban. The base of the word, Talib, is obviously the perfectly standard arabic word for "student". But the Arabic plural would be tullab, a word which doesnt hit fearful American ears like "Taliban". So what gives? Well, we have a word derived from two seperate language groups becoming naturalized in the language of the region. The plural is constructed in the persian manner, thus the plural ending of -an, similar to Marwanan. Not, obviously to be understood as (son of) the student in this case, but rather as a simple plural. It makes intuitive sense for an Arab who was raised in the far eastern reaches of the Persian empire, in a totally Iranian language zone, to use similar suffixes to denote himself as the Man From Merv. The idea of a Pre Islamic Arabic name of Marwan, then, is simply another post-hoc fiction which sprung up to cushion its non existance in the mythology of the Standard Narrative of Islam. We know this happened with the name Muhammad - an appelation became a proper, real name in the narrative, as The Muhammad (the spiritualization of the idea of the returning Christ/ Messiah), who was the Abdullah (Servant of God) to the pre-nicene Syrian Christians slowly morphed within two centuries to an actual man NAMED Muhammed ibn Abdullah, who had an actual father by that name. And of course once a person is pulled into existance, stories must be invented to support him. Marwanan as a tribal designation rather than a given family name then would be just another way in which the actual history of the creation of the Arabic empire in the 7th century morphed into the pious fiction of the victorious Islamic takeover of the area instead. This is salvation history, not actual history.
As a historian of Islam,
Qur'an have 7 Arab dialogue version,all have their own history,
Here is Makkah dialogue history,
Qur'an was first written on stones, goats , camels skin and bones, before 632, only two evidence are in Makkah now,pre date 632,
After that
During IST calif period, Zubair collected and form a book , by method (by hearings all witnesses and accepted all stone , skin's and bones)
After that,
3 calif period , lost the only book so
Again Zubair collected by same method made 6 copies distribute in 6 Provence,
2 of them still exists, one in Damascus second is in madina,
In ummiyad period,
They hired some people some of them Christian, make more copies and distribute again,
In Calif hajaz period all vowels were added so others then Arab can recites it,
Now we have sanad
Sanad means stamp ( proven)
Allah + Muhammad + Zubair + Usman + ali + Malik + Hejaz + umair ( qahera madresa egept 1928)
@Tariq Kamal! Yes Indeed! You are a historian of Islamic history of lies! The Islamic story just does not add up. That's why Sheik YASIR QADHI said there "HOLES IN THE NARRATIVE"
one thing i do not get is, why did they invent a prophet? mohammad is not just mentioned by name but also indirectly in the quran, as god telling him what to do and tell the believers
The indirect mentioning you refer to is the result of a certain interpretation of the Quran that only came about later. Without the context of Sira and Sunna which were written centuries after the fact, nobody would get the idea that the Quran is God talking to Muhammad. The straight forward reading is that it is directed not at Muhammad but at the reader/listener and not from God but from the writer/preacher.
What is amazing very little interaction with Arabs
I thought the Quran was the perfect words of Allah written by Muhammad?
Weh Antioch Kosrow fits YOUR criteria even better. AND..There were NOT only christians but also jews.
Too many assumptions without any historical proof or manuscript to provide some credibility. I am disappointed.
You haven't really been paying attention too carefully if that is what you think.