I first carried a .44 WCF as a kid. Ammo was purchased at the hardware store in Marfa, TX., (long before "cowboy action" rounds). That round was was no joke. That round put many in the forever box...or a hole, in the latter 19c (and early 20c here in Texas). "Yotes", jackrabbits, varmints, and deer (I had a rifle in the same caliber) were never an issue. Never felt "under gunned" with it back then. I still have a. 44 revolver. I use cast soft lead 200gr bullets and 38gr of BP. The same for two .44 1872 Colt replicas (except for 28g of powder). I also use a 255g (soft lead) RNFP with 38g of BP in my .45 SA. I've yet to shoot anything that didn't stay down, and regularly use .45 Colt in my '92 and '66 replicas. I wouldn't use "cowboy" ammo for anything serious. Nice '73.
Thats spot on. You have to pay attention to chamber throats in revolvers. The old ones cannot due hard cast without opening the chamber throat to .429. The HCL wont size up to the bore like soft lead will if its pushed thru a .424-425 throat.
Cowboy action ca'tridges are down loaded... To make recoil more manageable and to require the target quicker! Wimp loads! Standard loads from a 45 colt revolver are nothing to sneer at! I've taken "several" good sized deer & wild hogs with mine! Nearly all anchored at the shot!
A more proper representation of what the people of the so called cowboy era were using, would be to use original balloon head cases, with the original black powder charge weight, and the original style of bullet. I think you would be quite surprised at the results that you would get. I for one was quite impressed by the power demonstrated by both the 45 colt, and the 44wcf cartridges. when loaded to original specs. I would not feel under gunned with either.
As I recall the original bullets were made of pure lead with no tin or antimony, identical to the conical bullets of cap and ball guns. Pure lead collapses easier than the hard lead of today's manufacturers. I tested them against gel and found they flatten out and expand if they are pure lead, at slower velocities 650 to 710 feet per second.
Your 45 Colt and 44 WCF were _way_ under loaded. The original loads were around 900-1000 fps with 255 grain and 200 grain lead bullets respectively. Load up LSWC or LRNFP to those velocities and your wound channel would be more impressive.
Those 44 rounds you used are basically nat farts. My uberti cattleman chambered in 44wcf with the 5½" barrel, 205gr bullet sitting on top of powder per 1875 ratio homemade is pushing low end 980mv to 1050mv high side and 1275-1350 from the Uberti 73 Carbine. The carbine has no problem laying down large bucks. Bullets deform and expand with no problem
Them wet farts are still plenty strong enough to drop a man. They’re mimicking the old .455 Webley and 1873 mas service loads. They won’t break any speed recourds, but they’ll still drop a man right quick.
That 45 load is a Cowboy spec underperforming load. I have no problem reloading hard cast 45 Colt to 850-950 fps . Can also find 200 gr factory jhp standard pressure at 950 -1000 fps
One may get something around 1000fps from a standard pressure 200gn .45 Colt round (in a 7.5" barrel). Yet it is sub-optimal to say the least. First - it would call for a lot of slow burning shotgun powder, like the Blue Dot. This in turn results in a lot of extra "rocket push" recoil from gas and ejecta. The low pressure limit of the .45 Colt comes from its black powder heritage - thin cylinder walls of the 1873 Colt. With smokeless propellants it would be best to drill smaller diameter holes (.357 Mag, .41 Mag?) through this cylinder if we wanted to keep the external envelope of the firearm. More pressure -> more efficient powder burn. The same performance (velocity, bullet weight) could be obtained from a much smaller charge weight of a fast burning powder like Titegroup, giving much less recoil. More performance is available if we stay with slow burning powders. This is why Elmer Keith preferred the .44 Special for his "magnum" experiments with SAA Colts.
The reason some of these loads are so slow is because they have to be safe to use in a cap and ball revolver with a conversion cylinder. Any smokeless loads over 850fps puts it in the danger zone and could potentially blow it up. Now if you're using black powder loads that isnt a problem because it doesn't create as much pressure.
Semantics , but .... These loads are not ' underperforming ' , they are performing exactly as the were intended ( in current Era & context ) . They are explicitly intended for Cowboy Action completion. . Lowest recoil is a desirable feature to shave time off strings of shots on multiple ( largish) steel targets .
@@tylerdixon3290You probably haven't heard yet but modern reproductions use modern steels. We don't use pure iron anymore. Same steel as a Ruger Blackhawk is manufactured from and thicker cylinders and frames. Your expertise ran out in 1873
I’ve been shooting cowboy action for 14 years. Choice of cartridge largely depends on your goals. The .38 Special is the top choice because it’s the cheapest to feed (whether you handload or buy factory ammo) and it’s easy to shoot quickly. Some of us enjoy shooting the more historically correct cartridges and a select few load black powder cartridges. The Winchester “dash calibers”, primarily the .44-40, are ideal black powder cartridges. There is no minor/major scoring in SASS, and no scoring zones on the steel targets. Make it go “ding”. The maximum velocity is 1000 FPS from rifle, 1000 FPS in pistol, but a heavy bullet close to those limits may damage a mild steel targets. Around 700-800 FPS is a happy medium. My black powder .44-40 rifle ammo clocks at just under 1000 FPS with a 200 grain bullet.
I have an old Charter Arms Bulldog that's been bobbed & shortened. I would like to see a test with cast lead, Winchester Silvertips, and jacketed 240gr. or 200 gr.. any chance of that getting tested?
Yup . .44 Spl ( or back in the day , the ballistically similar .44 Russian ) gave essentially similar performance to these tested .45 and .44-40 loads . In modern times defensive loads , alas most of the mainstream HP loads are woefully underloaded , ironically because of Charter Bulldogs . Boutique ammo or handloads can really bring it alive .
Ahhh... The old 44-40 vs 45 Colt Debate!... You got to look at it this way... Both are Crazy Expensive if you are going to shoot Factory Boxed Ammo... But if you're going to reload, then know this.... 44-40 being a Bottle Necked Cartridge, and being a shorter case, is sometimes a real pain to reload... They can be difficult to size the case, seat the bullet, and get your crimp good enough that they won't jump... But if you're loading light "Cowboy" Loadings, that probably won't happen anyhow... The 45 Colts aren't too awfully bad... They're fairly strait foreword and easy... My point being... If you like to do a lot of tedious "F-ing" Around, then reloading 44-40' s are right up your alley... If you're independently wealthy, which I am not, shoot factory ammo!....
Great video, Just subbed. I have two rules for every gun I own: No matter what I bought it to do, it must #1) be reliable, #2) be able to carry out defensive duties in an emergency. I think you've well proven that even antiquated "cowboy guns" are still viable, if need be
Actually the 45 Long Colt moniker was not to distinguish it from the 45 S&W Schofield which is and was an entirely different case with larger rim. It was to distinguish from the 45 Colt Government which was a true short Colt with the same rim as the Colt and many if not all had the same headstamp.
Yeah. Well, try reading up on what FC Barnes says about 45 Colt vs the shorter 45 S&W in Cartridges of the World. Did people of that era call out for a 45 Long as opposed to 45 Short? It seems likely if not certain. The 'long' moniker has hung on too many years to doubt it. Leaving the question, "Did the name 45 Short die with the cartridge when companies stopped loading it around 1940?" (per FCB, p200, 3rd Ed.) The 45 Auto is just that, the 45 Auto. 45 Colt, 45 Auto. Any use of the word "long" to distinguish a difference is superfluous, unneeded.
BTW, I think it is interesting that CAS game has spawned a new short Colt case (I think they call it 45 Colt Special or Cowboy special or something like that) seems like history does repeat itself.
@@mkshffr4936 Best I can find is within the 45 Auto Historical Notes, "The Colt Government Model auto pistol and the .....", p199, COW, 3rd ed. So those words, 'Colt Government', refers to a pistol not a cartridge. On p206 same edition no such named cartridge is listed.
@@rokkinjohann I don't remember which edition I had. 4th runs in my head but not certain. Jim Taylor's article "The long and short of the 45 Colt" (available on line) describes and pictures the round. He had an old box and used one to take a coyote. Basically if you take a standard 45 Colt case and cut it to Schofield length you have a pretty good approximation.
I'm enjoying this Cowboy Action series, but I don't really get the point of this test. It's not a valid test of what a modern shooter would use for a defense load in those cartridges (no hollow point?). But it's also not really a valid test of period correct ammo (wrong powder, charge, bullet shape). And as far as modern SASS shooting goes, it completely skips .38 spl and .357 magnum, which any SASS newcomer is at least going to consider. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with a "today we're testing the ammo we happen to have with the guns we have on hand" video! :) But it did have me scratching my head.
Shooting competition is never a bad thing, but SASS has really brought about some unrealistic loads. That Ammo Inc .45 Colt trash doesn’t even make USPSA major power factor. Factories also need to bump up the 200 grain defensive loads. 900 fps is still well below 14,000 psi and 1000 is possible for that pressure.
Frontier Western Heritage with Doc. Has a great comparison of both 44-40 and 45 colt ,40grain BP loads . Ammo Mart maybe give a look. BP power is what we your audience was looking for
My all time favorite caliber is the 44WCF. I have a Colt Frontier Six Shooter made in 1894 but I really prefer Smith and Wessons. One of my favorites used to be my New Model #3 but I recently retired it due to the difficulty of finding Smith and Wesson antique parts. I have aquired a Uberti Schofield in 44WCF with the 7 inch barrel and a Uberti 1st Model American with the 5 1/2" barrel. I own and carry habitually a variety of Smith and Wesson 38 top breaks. I don't have any of the fancy equipment but in my experience load these calibers with black powder and you will notice a whopping difference. With the advent of smokless powder and the transitions of loadings seems they were reduced severely. I also have an 1873 Winchester Short Rifle in 44WCF. I call it my Haley's Comet Commorative Rifle because it was manufactured in 1910 and Haley's Comet came around in 1910. My Aunt Miriam told me that she and Uncle Columbus Barnhill stood out in the front yard of the house I live in today and watched it in the sky. She said he told her that if she lived to be as old as he was then she would see it again. She did because she was still alive in 1985 when the comet returned. And on the 9th of April, 1865 Uncle Columbus Barnhill had been surrendered with "The Moore's Creek Rifle Guards". Company E of the 18th North Carolina Regiment of the Army of Northern Virginia.
100% agreed thats what the stats say. But here the problem stats don't mean shit in a gun fight. I have known a few people that been on 2 way ranges. I have never heard once or thought to myself I wish I had a smaller gun or less rounds available
Well, my house has never burned down, and, according to statistics, it never will. The only thing my smoke detectors have done thus far is annoy the crap out of me if I forget to change the batteries. Why do I have them?
I was surprised by the gel resutls, didn't expect the heavy bullets traveling that slowly to penetrate that deeply. If what I see posted is accurate, the .45 Colt is a very versatile round for handloading, & you go pretty hot (of course in a proper firearm). One thing on the tube loading, using a slight angle for a slow slide instead of straight up for a fast drop is a good safety precaution. Some pointy bullet ammo dropping that fast could ignite a primer. Please excuse if I'm pointing out something you had already taken into account.
These loads especially the 45 Colt are not representative of the performance of 45 Colt. The penetration of the heavy fat 45 is partially due to momentum.
You should have used 'Cowboy Action loads" instead of 'Cowboy Calibers'.. the 44 WCF would normally get about 1,100 fps from a 7.5" barreled revolver. The 45 Colt was around 900 fps from same. 45 Schofield 800 fps - with a lighter bullet - iirc.
I think that .38/40 was popular with cowboys too and it's actually,I believe,a .40 bullet.There was .32/20 too although I am not sure if that one's actually .32 and it might not have been as popular with it being smaller.
In 1st Gen SAA , the 5 most popular calibers were : .45 Colt > .44 WCF > .38 WCF > .32 WCF > .41 Long Colt . ( For historical context , both .38-40 and .41 LC can be considered equivalent to today's. 40 S&W with solid bullets .) The .32-20 filled a difference niche . Outdoorsmen, farmers , hunters , etc who weren't lawmen or gunfighter, and did Not primarily really large game . Think of .38 Special level of energy , but with better trajectory and penetration. For historical context - pre WWII , for the S&W M&P , Colt Offical Police , and Police Positive Special . Today we think of them as all being .38 Special , but about 1/3 of their total production was in .32-20.
Great video, really informative. 9:00 I think you loaded 3 of the 45 Colt defensive rounds into the revolver, but only fired 2. My firearms safety OCD was freaking out a bit.
I reload my .45 Long Colt with HS6 and max load gets me 1200 with a 200 GR XTP and a 7.5 inch barrel. Absolutely no issues. Reloading for 'Thompson TC or Ruger' I use HS 7 behind a 250 gr projectile and get 1100 fps. Ruger Max Load for a 300 gr. projectile I still get 1100 plus, but don't recommend shooting in a pistol (even a Ruger), as it does have some recoil. Long Colt is a great caliber, and can be very versatile in it's loads. Pay close attention to any warnings in your reloading manual on max loads. Stay safe and have fun.
No 38-40 K i got a new service in 38-40😊 4" 😊 so sweet 1922 Spent 140$ on a partial box of antique ammo😮 I was wondering what would that do? Out of a pistol Im not going to shoot my bullets 😮 Are you nuts Give me some answers damnit 🧐 Whats wrong with you 😮 38-40!
I do wish you'd tested the .45 LC with a 255 grain Keith bullet. That flat nose slug does some real damage. I've seen it in animals, but never in gel. It leaves a large wound channel and has decent penetration.
The indians were mostly using Henry's and 1866 brass framed Winchesters ("Yellow Boys") and were only in caliber .44 Rim Fire 200 grain bullets over only 28 grains od black powder. A few may have had 1873 Winchesters in 44-40 caliber which are quite a bit more powerful.
FYI... Accidentally fired 44 mag though my Cimmaron 45 colt. By God's grace it didn't detonate when fired 5 times. This shows how durable they're built! The cases cracked and fire formed to the chambers. When you shoot guns enough you will have an awe S^%T moment!
"Cowboy loads" were never used by "cowboys", that is to say, they are historically incorrect. The "cowboy load" was developed far more recently for cowboy action shooters, in order to give them weak loads that would be less risky in the hands of the aging players of that game. So, your tests are way off the mark to begin with.
Not so much the aging players as it is not damaging the steel silhouettes , and avoiding ricochet off the steel at close range. Although , I’m sure keeping it fun for old guys , women and children does come into play . Lol
According to "Giggle," the original .45 Colt was loaded with a 255-grain bullet moving at 850 to 900 feet per second. This was a formidable round, a bit hotter than a 1911. If you go with an old-style Colt revolver, learn how to load it properly so there is an empty chamber under the hammer. Otherwise, a sharp blow from a stirrup on the hammer, or maybe dropping the gun, will cause a discharge. I think Hickock 45 on this platform demonstrates the old "Load one, skip one, load four more, gently lower the hammer" routine. --Old Guy
I would like to see 44-40 with hollow points. I have a 70's vintage 44 bulldog. The son of Sam signature series. I carry federal 200 grain semi wadcutter hollow point lead. It makes big holes in pumpkins. My younger buddies call it a fud gun. I call not my Glock. Carrying something different is kind of fun.
My buddy had a guy stealing batteries out of his trucks & he went to stop him & closest firearm was his Judge. When he confronted the guy he tried to run him over in his Dodge Charger. My buddy had his Judge loaded with 45 Colt he unloaded on the car. The 45 Colt rounds were strong enough to penetrate into the engine capartment & one round actually hit the engine block & busted a hole in it. With busted block it dumped all oil out plus antifreeze. If it wasn't for that heavy round leaking radiator he would got away. But he never made more than few feet.
I have a remington new army with the conversion kit and its what i use for self defense. Unfortunately 15 years ago i caught a felony and have no choice
Oh Btw great range of calibers. However sort of surprised you didnt include 44 S&W/ Russian. John wesley Hardin seemed to like it, kinda like a 45 ACP of its day in a S&W first model DA top break. Just dont drop the gun 😂
Very small amount of cavitation and low hydrostatic shock but super penetration. That's surprising. I mean I wouldn't want to be hit by it no way no how, but it did significantly less damage than remarkably smaller defence rounds.
Wow, after watching this video, I wonder how those old west pioneers, army, and even gunfighters manage to protect themselves with such underpowered loads.
These are loaded weak intentionally for the game of CAS. Original 45 Colt loads with 40 grains of FFG black powder propelled a 255 grain lead bullet at upwards of 900 fps. The 44 WCF (44-40) was a 200 grain bullet at around the same speed. This is more powerful than most 45 auto loads. The channel Frontier Western Heritage has a few videos on the original loadings of each caliber.
@@reachvictoria3386 I realize that. I have a Marlin lever action .45 colt rifle. For a while I could only buy Cowboy ammo for it. I was at a range in AZ, with a Police officer. We talk about self defense ammo. He told me that while the Ammo was not the ideal ammo, it was better than nothing.
I have a 45 "colt" Ruger vaquero & a 1892 lever action rifle in the same... Cast my own bullet's from 1/2 wheel weights and 1/2 pure lead! In deer sized critter's they expand to about .750 diameter @ about 950 fps! Anything with in 100 yrd's is toast!
I dont know this to be true as a fact, but I believe .45 Colt became colloquially known as ".45 Long Colt" when .45 ACP rose to prominence, as a way to properly distinfuish the two calibers without any confusion.
Back in the day , up to WWll , ammo mfg used different alloys for different calibers and loads . Generally because Tin is More expensive than lead . In design criteria soft enough for optimal Bullet Obduration in guns with varying bore and throat dimensions was more critical . Nobody wants to have either customer complaints about accuracy , or have buyers switch to different brand .
45 colt moving at 614 is well below old West performance. Its original performance was close to 1000fps topped on 40 grains of powder and its adjusted speed when the army adjusted the powder down to closer to 30 grains averaged around 750 fps range. I would try to match their grain size, no fmj rounds, and at least try to match those old rounds with their modern smokeless equivalents in velocity. I would suggest that these rounds would be much better for 4 legged critters. Penetration would be more important. I feel like comparing these loads to fbi standards is a bit irrelevant. I wonder if plain lead flat nose rounds of the style from the old west might have mushroomed a bit or not.
Well though slow, they would still be mimicking common .45 calibre cartridges at the time. The French Mas 1873 revolver threw a .45 calibre slug only around 550fps, downright sluggish by most metrics, but it was still coveted for its ability to drop a soldier in one or two shots. The.455 Webley was was also throwing a slow slug around 700fps, and it was also known for its stopping power. So while I’d definitely prefer my full bore .45 colt BP loads, I’d still feel rather comfortable carrying these slow loads in a pinch.
@@Beuwen_The_Dragon - I might have misunderstood. I thought this was an experiment on the effectiveness of these rounds back in the day. I’m wondering now if you were trying to see how these rounds would perform today with the standards of today. I’ve always bet that even cowboy loads would suffice for self defense even though most consider them useless for anything other than CAS.
The .45 Colt was it and adopted in 1873 along with the Colt Single Action Army with 7.5 in barrel. Smith & Wesson had its top break American in .44 American , this would be developed into the Smith & Russian and led to development of the first true modern cartridge the .44 Russian. This led to a Civil War Veteran U.S. Army Officer developing the Schofield Smith & Wesson and the new .45 Schofield cartridge, a shorter cartridge , this cartridge and the 45 colt were totally different cartridge case dimensions esp , the rim. You can not chamber 45 Colt into a .45 Schofield revolver it's to long. You can indeed chamber an original. 45 Schofield Cartridge into a Colt 1873, having said that it was noted the .45 Schofield cartridges would slide to far forward in the Chambers out of the way of the firing pin, troopers would have to rattle their colts to reseat .45 Schofield Ammunition from time to time. They were issued .45 Schofield Ammunition because it was cheaper then .45 Colt. This caused numerous issues this lead Colt to cut down their .45 Colt Cartridge case down to .45 Schofield length known as the .45 Government.
Did Colt Factory use " Long Colt " ? No Did gun guys commonly use Long Colt in conversation 75 , 100 , and more years ago ? Yup . If someone said Long Colt would everyone know what he was referring to ? Sure !
Hollow points are generally preferred for preventing over penetration. But for the most part, as long as you are mindful on your target and beyond, overpen isn’t as much a problem as people think.
Most of your cowboy firearms were not metallic cartridges. They had them in the later years but to expensive for the average cowboy. Most had cap and ball black powder pistols.
Partially depends on how you define the Era. ( Insert the argument that in the rural West , living conditions , horses and wagons as primary transportation, etc , didn't start significantly start changing until 1920" s . Heck my late FIL in Nebraska unironically had his horse as his sole transportation until buying his first Tractor Trailer in late 1930's. Cars were toys for rich people , but big trucks were for making money .) But yeah . In the early to mid Wild West Era, if you had a perfectly good war surplus Cap & Ball , or later Cartridge Conversion, it still worked fine for day to day ranch and farm use , why spend a month's income on the latest and greatest. Even more broadly , it was uncommon to have to have a full size " fighting gun " unless you were a professional Peace Officer or a Gun Enthusiast. As categories , Owl Heads , Bull Dogs , I've Johnsons, H& R "s , and various knock offs in .22 , .32 , and .38"s , than full size big bores , by a factor probably around 10 .
@@BlakeHouse-j3u yep, pistols were also luxury back then. Shotguns and rifles on the prairie to hunt for food for survival. Most people couldn’t afford a pistol to hang on their hip and rarely even came to town.
I always thought the .45 Schofield was always known as the 45 Schofield. The army had enough Schofield in the inventory that although they adopted the 1873 SAA, they fed them with .45 Schofield. I had the opportunity to fire some .45 Colt rounds loaded with black powder thru an original SAA. They were hand loaded to original spec. I thought the load was pretty stout. I’ve since fired Cowboy Action loads thru clones, which was much less powerful. Never fired any of the modern SD loads, but your test seems to suggest that it’s still quite capable.
The 45 Colt and 45 Schofield were not the same there was quite a bit of difference in rim diameters. The 45 Schofield revolver was chambered in this caliber, for the cylinder was not long enough for the 45 colt. Thus 45 colt ammunition would not fit in the S&W Schofield revolver. 45 Schofield ammunition would fit in a Colt single action Army however, because of its smaller rim it would slide or should I say could slide forward in the 45 Colts cylinder and out of the way of the firing pin , thus the trooper would have to shake there revolver. The 45 schofield ammunition was cheaper and thus our Government bean counter purchased this ammunition and provided it to Troopers armed with 45 Colt Army's. Not a good idea. This lead to development of a third cartridge the unknown .45 Government, a 45 Colt Case shortened to .45 schofield case length , this would be the cartridge that was used. And you can find them in Cartridges of the World.
Such ammo may be quite useful in a 'mob situation' where multiple attackers have you cornered. You can get two or three at a time to go 'ouch' with each round fired.
I don't accept the concept of overpenetration. A center of mass shot through the sternum, going through the heart, and breaking the spine on the way out in a 300 lb bad guy can't fail. Whereas, a bullet that stops short of that CAN fail. The concept of overpenetration and the goal of stopping in the magical distance of 12 to 18 inches of gel is an excuse to develop and sell overpriced ammo. Don't fall for it. Most of them fail to deliver what they promise. (Hell, you already know they lie about the velocity. And expansion depends on higher velocity.) A heavy-for-caliber LSWC or RNFP at low velocity (and low recoil) will get the penetration you need. In this video I saw his bullets go through 32 inches of gel with very little recoil and thought, "That's what I want!" Just remember that the 4th Rule of Gun Safety always applies, even in a gun fight. "Know your target and what's behind it." Hollow points don't give you a pass on that rule. Cops, who carry hollow points, shout, "Watch out for cross fire," for a reason: misses and glancing hits.
This is very misleading. Are you talking about cartridges down loaded for Cowboy Action Shooting ? Or are you talking about the old west cartridges as they were originally loaded in the 1873-1890's ?
“ A 45 will lift a man up, hurl him 100 yards, and up thru the uprights on a football field. “ This is Epideemiology… We have all seen the knock down power of a 45 written in Internet forums. This is how science works. Always follow the science…
That is not a good idea to load that Henry standing on its butt and dropping those rounds down the tube that way , I know a lady 20 + Years ago who did it that way and had here hand over the magazine tube when the second round she dropped was set off by the first round , it resulted in a through and Through gun shot wound to her hand. Lay the piece flat on the table and feed the rounds that way and you won't have a hole in your in hand
Non CAS , " Normal Smokeless " .45 Colt , i.e. W-W Super X , or R-P Green & Yellow Box is loaded to nominal 875 fps , typically chrono +/- 850 fps , in the same ballpark as BP .45 Colt , at least from 4 3/4 bbls . " Cowboy Action " loads from the various varies greatly. From barely 600 fps to mid 700's . The faster ones at say 750 -ish aren't terrible for all around use . Slower " Cowboy " .45 Colt is matching BP .45 Schofield . Yes though, current .44- 40 is very mild compared to either BP , or mid 20th Century Smokless factory ammo .
And I intended to add also : And with non expanding RN/FP 250-55 lead bullets , the terminal performance is very similar , at either 700 or 875 fps . .45 caliber wound track with 32 inch plus penetration. Might make a difference on a large bear , or large elk , but on human Felons or whitetail deer , either will give full penetration.
I first carried a .44 WCF as a kid. Ammo was purchased at the hardware store in Marfa, TX., (long before "cowboy action" rounds). That round was was no joke. That round put many in the forever box...or a hole, in the latter 19c (and early 20c here in Texas). "Yotes", jackrabbits, varmints, and deer (I had a rifle in the same caliber) were never an issue. Never felt "under gunned" with it back then. I still have a. 44 revolver. I use cast soft lead 200gr bullets and 38gr of BP. The same for two .44 1872 Colt replicas (except for 28g of powder). I also use a 255g (soft lead) RNFP with 38g of BP in my .45 SA. I've yet to shoot anything that didn't stay down, and regularly use .45 Colt in my '92 and '66 replicas. I wouldn't use "cowboy" ammo for anything serious. Nice '73.
Thats spot on. You have to pay attention to chamber throats in revolvers. The old ones cannot due hard cast without opening the chamber throat to .429. The HCL wont size up to the bore like soft lead will if its pushed thru a .424-425 throat.
Cowboy action ca'tridges are down loaded... To make recoil more manageable and to require the target quicker!
Wimp loads!
Standard loads from a 45 colt revolver are nothing to sneer at!
I've taken "several" good sized deer & wild hogs with mine!
Nearly all anchored at the shot!
A more proper representation of what the people of the so called cowboy era were using, would be to use original balloon head cases, with the original black powder charge weight, and the original style of bullet. I think you would be quite surprised at the results that you would get. I for one was quite impressed by the power demonstrated by both the 45 colt, and the 44wcf cartridges. when loaded to original specs. I would not feel under gunned with either.
As I recall the original bullets were made of pure lead with no tin or antimony, identical to the conical bullets of cap and ball guns. Pure lead collapses easier than the hard lead of today's manufacturers. I tested them against gel and found they flatten out and expand if they are pure lead, at slower velocities 650 to 710 feet per second.
Alex Baldwin his 45 Long Colt went completely through two humans that I found kind of interesting.
Especially since his name is Alec…
Show some respect and spell the murderer's name right? LOL!
Alex vrs. Alec, who cares?
It was especially interesting because a single action pistol managed to fire itself, according to someone who was there *smirk😏
Why?
Your 45 Colt and 44 WCF were _way_ under loaded. The original loads were around 900-1000 fps with 255 grain and 200 grain lead bullets respectively. Load up LSWC or LRNFP to those velocities and your wound channel would be more impressive.
He said under powered cowboy action loads😊
325 gr 1500 fps 51/5 in barrel 45 colt nor much walks away.
Not for the 45.
. For sane -ish Blackhawk pressures in 30- 32 K range, that would be approaching 1100 fps .
Cowboy loads are way under-powered!
Those 44 rounds you used are basically nat farts.
My uberti cattleman chambered in 44wcf with the 5½" barrel, 205gr bullet sitting on top of powder per 1875 ratio homemade is pushing low end 980mv to 1050mv high side and 1275-1350 from the Uberti 73 Carbine.
The carbine has no problem laying down large bucks.
Bullets deform and expand with no problem
Them wet farts are still plenty strong enough to drop a man. They’re mimicking the old .455 Webley and 1873 mas service loads. They won’t break any speed recourds, but they’ll still drop a man right quick.
Lmfao 😂
That 45 load is a Cowboy spec underperforming load. I have no problem reloading hard cast 45 Colt to 850-950 fps . Can also find 200 gr factory jhp standard pressure at 950 -1000 fps
One may get something around 1000fps from a standard pressure 200gn .45 Colt round (in a 7.5" barrel). Yet it is sub-optimal to say the least. First - it would call for a lot of slow burning shotgun powder, like the Blue Dot. This in turn results in a lot of extra "rocket push" recoil from gas and ejecta.
The low pressure limit of the .45 Colt comes from its black powder heritage - thin cylinder walls of the 1873 Colt. With smokeless propellants it would be best to drill smaller diameter holes (.357 Mag, .41 Mag?) through this cylinder if we wanted to keep the external envelope of the firearm. More pressure -> more efficient powder burn. The same performance (velocity, bullet weight) could be obtained from a much smaller charge weight of a fast burning powder like Titegroup, giving much less recoil. More performance is available if we stay with slow burning powders. This is why Elmer Keith preferred the .44 Special for his "magnum" experiments with SAA Colts.
The reason some of these loads are so slow is because they have to be safe to use in a cap and ball revolver with a conversion cylinder. Any smokeless loads over 850fps puts it in the danger zone and could potentially blow it up. Now if you're using black powder loads that isnt a problem because it doesn't create as much pressure.
Semantics , but ....
These loads are not ' underperforming ' , they are performing exactly as the were intended ( in current Era & context ) .
They are explicitly intended for Cowboy Action completion. . Lowest recoil is a desirable feature to shave time off strings of shots on multiple ( largish) steel targets .
Alex Baldwin did a bang up job with pure lead at cowboy speeds. Best rethink your thinking.
@@tylerdixon3290You probably haven't heard yet but modern reproductions use modern steels. We don't use pure iron anymore. Same steel as a Ruger Blackhawk is manufactured from and thicker cylinders and frames. Your expertise ran out in 1873
I’ve been shooting cowboy action for 14 years. Choice of cartridge largely depends on your goals. The .38 Special is the top choice because it’s the cheapest to feed (whether you handload or buy factory ammo) and it’s easy to shoot quickly.
Some of us enjoy shooting the more historically correct cartridges and a select few load black powder cartridges. The Winchester “dash calibers”, primarily the .44-40, are ideal black powder cartridges.
There is no minor/major scoring in SASS, and no scoring zones on the steel targets. Make it go “ding”. The maximum velocity is 1000 FPS from rifle, 1000 FPS in pistol, but a heavy bullet close to those limits may damage a mild steel targets. Around 700-800 FPS is a happy medium. My black powder .44-40 rifle ammo clocks at just under 1000 FPS with a 200 grain bullet.
I've been carrying a 44 special for some time. I don't feel unarmed. I wish you had been able to include one in your test.
Whoa hold on their cowboy thats like carrying two 22lrs
( Joking )
I have an old Charter Arms Bulldog that's been bobbed & shortened. I would like to see a test with cast lead, Winchester Silvertips, and jacketed 240gr. or 200 gr..
any chance of that getting tested?
Yup . .44 Spl ( or back in the day , the ballistically similar .44 Russian ) gave essentially similar performance to these tested .45 and .44-40 loads .
In modern times defensive loads , alas most of the mainstream HP loads are woefully underloaded , ironically because of Charter Bulldogs . Boutique ammo or handloads can really bring it alive .
Ahhh... The old 44-40 vs 45 Colt Debate!... You got to look at it this way... Both are Crazy Expensive if you are going to shoot Factory Boxed Ammo... But if you're going to reload, then know this.... 44-40 being a Bottle Necked Cartridge, and being a shorter case, is sometimes a real pain to reload... They can be difficult to size the case, seat the bullet, and get your crimp good enough that they won't jump... But if you're loading light "Cowboy" Loadings, that probably won't happen anyhow... The 45 Colts aren't too awfully bad... They're fairly strait foreword and easy...
My point being... If you like to do a lot of tedious "F-ing" Around, then reloading 44-40' s are right up your alley...
If you're independently wealthy, which I am not, shoot factory ammo!....
Great video, Just subbed.
I have two rules for every gun I own: No matter what I bought it to do, it must #1) be reliable, #2) be able to carry out defensive duties in an emergency. I think you've well proven that even antiquated "cowboy guns" are still viable, if need be
Actually the 45 Long Colt moniker was not to distinguish it from the 45 S&W Schofield which is and was an entirely different case with larger rim. It was to distinguish from the 45 Colt Government which was a true short Colt with the same rim as the Colt and many if not all had the same headstamp.
Yeah. Well, try reading up on what FC Barnes says about 45 Colt vs the shorter 45 S&W in Cartridges of the World.
Did people of that era call out for a 45 Long as opposed to 45 Short? It seems likely if not certain. The 'long' moniker has hung on too many years to doubt it. Leaving the question, "Did the name 45 Short die with the cartridge when companies stopped loading it around 1940?" (per FCB, p200, 3rd Ed.)
The 45 Auto is just that, the 45 Auto. 45 Colt, 45 Auto. Any use of the word "long" to distinguish a difference is superfluous, unneeded.
@@rokkinjohann If you have COW look up 45 Colt Government. I would give you the page number but my copy disappeared years ago.
BTW, I think it is interesting that CAS game has spawned a new short Colt case (I think they call it 45 Colt Special or Cowboy special or something like that) seems like history does repeat itself.
@@mkshffr4936 Best I can find is within the 45 Auto Historical Notes, "The Colt Government Model auto pistol and the .....", p199, COW, 3rd ed. So those words, 'Colt Government', refers to a pistol not a cartridge. On p206 same edition no such named cartridge is listed.
@@rokkinjohann I don't remember which edition I had. 4th runs in my head but not certain. Jim Taylor's article "The long and short of the 45 Colt" (available on line) describes and pictures the round. He had an old box and used one to take a coyote.
Basically if you take a standard 45 Colt case and cut it to Schofield length you have a pretty good approximation.
I'm enjoying this Cowboy Action series, but I don't really get the point of this test. It's not a valid test of what a modern shooter would use for a defense load in those cartridges (no hollow point?). But it's also not really a valid test of period correct ammo (wrong powder, charge, bullet shape). And as far as modern SASS shooting goes, it completely skips .38 spl and .357 magnum, which any SASS newcomer is at least going to consider.
Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with a "today we're testing the ammo we happen to have with the guns we have on hand" video! :) But it did have me scratching my head.
Great content, very well brought. Greetings from the Netherlands and God Bless You.
Shooting competition is never a bad thing, but SASS has really brought about some unrealistic loads. That Ammo Inc .45 Colt trash doesn’t even make USPSA major power factor.
Factories also need to bump up the 200 grain defensive loads. 900 fps is still well below 14,000 psi and 1000 is possible for that pressure.
Frontier Western Heritage with Doc. Has a great comparison of both 44-40 and 45 colt ,40grain BP loads . Ammo Mart maybe give a look. BP power is what we your audience was looking for
Agree, the 40Gr BP load is no joke. That's what I carry in my walking around the woods gun. Those cowboy loads are mousefarts in comparison
My all time favorite caliber is the 44WCF. I have a Colt Frontier Six Shooter made in 1894 but I really prefer Smith and Wessons. One of my favorites used to be my New Model #3 but I recently retired it due to the difficulty of finding Smith and Wesson antique parts. I have aquired a Uberti Schofield in 44WCF with the 7 inch barrel and a Uberti 1st Model American with the 5 1/2" barrel. I own and carry habitually a variety of Smith and Wesson 38 top breaks. I don't have any of the fancy equipment but in my experience load these calibers with black powder and you will notice a whopping difference. With the advent of smokless powder and the transitions of loadings seems they were reduced severely. I also have an 1873 Winchester Short Rifle in 44WCF. I call it my Haley's Comet Commorative Rifle because it was manufactured in 1910 and Haley's Comet came around in 1910. My Aunt Miriam told me that she and Uncle Columbus Barnhill stood out in the front yard of the house I live in today and watched it in the sky. She said he told her that if she lived to be as old as he was then she would see it again. She did because she was still alive in 1985 when the comet returned. And on the 9th of April, 1865 Uncle Columbus Barnhill had been surrendered with "The Moore's Creek Rifle Guards". Company E of the 18th North Carolina Regiment of the Army of Northern Virginia.
But the stats show that self-defence shootings are taken care of in 3 shots or less so a revolver carries plenty of rounds
100% agreed thats what the stats say.
But here the problem stats don't mean shit in a gun fight.
I have known a few people that been on 2 way ranges. I have never heard once or thought to myself I wish I had a smaller gun or less rounds available
Well, my house has never burned down, and, according to statistics, it never will. The only thing my smoke detectors have done thus far is annoy the crap out of me if I forget to change the batteries. Why do I have them?
You are correct. The fact is that a very high percentage of defensive shooting carries these 3 elements.
3 shots
3 seconds
3 yards
This is a fact.
@@jamesorth1521 What percentage of people who carry for a defensive reason ever actually have to use it? 1%? Less? So why even carry?
@@IvIidnightbecause nobody ever knows if or when they might be that 1% whom need it.
.45 Colt hot loads kick ass, you just need to take care what you put them in. Ruger only is how they're listed, and it's good advice.
I was surprised by the gel resutls, didn't expect the heavy bullets traveling that slowly to penetrate that deeply. If what I see posted is accurate, the .45 Colt is a very versatile round for handloading, & you go pretty hot (of course in a proper firearm). One thing on the tube loading, using a slight angle for a slow slide instead of straight up for a fast drop is a good safety precaution. Some pointy bullet ammo dropping that fast could ignite a primer. Please excuse if I'm pointing out something you had already taken into account.
These loads especially the 45 Colt are not representative of the performance of 45 Colt. The penetration of the heavy fat 45 is partially due to momentum.
You should have used 'Cowboy Action loads" instead of 'Cowboy Calibers'.. the 44 WCF would normally get about 1,100 fps from a 7.5" barreled revolver. The 45 Colt was around 900 fps from same. 45 Schofield 800 fps - with a lighter bullet - iirc.
Thank you for a great video!
I have been wondering of how effectiv cowboy action ammunition is, now i now!
I think that .38/40 was popular with cowboys too and it's actually,I believe,a .40 bullet.There was .32/20 too although I am not sure if that one's actually .32 and it might not have been as popular with it being smaller.
I liked my S&W .32-20 mod.14
In 1st Gen SAA , the 5 most popular calibers were : .45 Colt > .44 WCF > .38 WCF > .32 WCF > .41 Long Colt . ( For historical context , both .38-40 and .41 LC can be considered equivalent to today's. 40 S&W with solid bullets .)
The .32-20 filled a difference niche . Outdoorsmen, farmers , hunters , etc who weren't lawmen or gunfighter, and did Not primarily really large game . Think of .38 Special level of energy , but with better trajectory and penetration.
For historical context - pre WWII , for the S&W M&P , Colt Offical Police , and Police Positive Special . Today we think of them as all being .38 Special , but about 1/3 of their total production was in .32-20.
Now let’s see them in the cap gun loads the cowboy Larpers use when they dress up and play guns.
Great video, really informative.
9:00 I think you loaded 3 of the 45 Colt defensive rounds into the revolver, but only fired 2. My firearms safety OCD was freaking out a bit.
I reload my .45 Long Colt with HS6 and max load gets me 1200 with a 200 GR XTP and a 7.5 inch barrel. Absolutely no issues.
Reloading for 'Thompson TC or Ruger' I use HS 7 behind a 250 gr projectile and get 1100 fps. Ruger Max Load for a 300 gr. projectile I still get 1100 plus, but don't recommend shooting in a pistol (even a Ruger), as it does have some recoil.
Long Colt is a great caliber, and can be very versatile in it's loads.
Pay close attention to any warnings in your reloading manual on max loads. Stay safe and have fun.
No 38-40
K i got a new service in 38-40😊
4" 😊 so sweet 1922
Spent 140$ on a partial box of antique ammo😮
I was wondering what would that do?
Out of a pistol
Im not going to shoot my bullets 😮
Are you nuts
Give me some answers damnit 🧐
Whats wrong with you 😮
38-40!
I do wish you'd tested the .45 LC with a 255 grain Keith bullet. That flat nose slug does some real damage. I've seen it in animals, but never in gel. It leaves a large wound channel and has decent penetration.
Yes , Keith SWC , or LBT style FP are fine things , and optimize cast bullet terminal performance.
But that said , traditional RN/FP isn't terrible .
Battle of the Little Bighorn, Dog Soldiers killed Custer's troopers pretty effectively with 44-40 Lever action carbines!!!
The indians were mostly using Henry's and 1866 brass framed Winchesters ("Yellow Boys") and were only in caliber .44 Rim Fire 200 grain bullets over only 28 grains od black powder.
A few may have had 1873 Winchesters in 44-40 caliber which are quite a bit more powerful.
FYI... Accidentally fired 44 mag though my Cimmaron 45 colt. By God's grace it didn't detonate when fired 5 times. This shows how durable they're built! The cases cracked and fire formed to the chambers. When you shoot guns enough you will have an awe S^%T moment!
Alot of ol boys taking a dirt nap from a 45 colt .... the original load was 40 grains of black powder. The ( plowboy ) load
I wonder about the alloy in the bullets. At the velocities you were getting pure lead would be fine.
I have seen 45 Colt in vintage boxes that were actually labelled long colt
This was so interesting. I have wondered how those calibers would perform in a self defense situation.
In the contemporary context , all three would have terminal performance substantially similar to .45acp 230 FMJ .
I know I am not using the proper name by calling it Long Colt. I want to ensure I do not get 45ACP.
"Cowboy loads" were never used by "cowboys", that is to say, they are historically incorrect. The "cowboy load" was developed far more recently for cowboy action shooters, in order to give them weak loads that would be less risky in the hands of the aging players of that game. So, your tests are way off the mark to begin with.
The weak loads are also so the shooter can recover from recoil faster for speed shooting during competition.
Not so much the aging players as it is not damaging the steel silhouettes , and avoiding ricochet off the steel at close range.
Although , I’m sure keeping it fun for old guys , women and children does come into play . Lol
"Cowboy action" load are considerably under powered!
@@cliffchilders5820 I DID say that. But, perhaps I should have used words with fewer syllables!
According to "Giggle," the original .45 Colt was loaded with a 255-grain bullet moving at 850 to 900 feet per second. This was a formidable round, a bit hotter than a 1911. If you go with an old-style Colt revolver, learn how to load it properly so there is an empty chamber under the hammer. Otherwise, a sharp blow from a stirrup on the hammer, or maybe dropping the gun, will cause a discharge. I think Hickock 45 on this platform demonstrates the old "Load one, skip one, load four more, gently lower the hammer" routine. --Old Guy
Stirrup on the hammer?? You ain't rode a horse have ya.
I would like to see 44-40 with hollow points. I have a 70's vintage 44 bulldog. The son of Sam signature series. I carry federal 200 grain semi wadcutter hollow point lead. It makes big holes in pumpkins. My younger buddies call it a fud gun. I call not my Glock. Carrying something different is kind of fun.
My buddy had a guy stealing batteries out of his trucks & he went to stop him & closest firearm was his Judge. When he confronted the guy he tried to run him over in his Dodge Charger. My buddy had his Judge loaded with 45 Colt he unloaded on the car. The 45 Colt rounds were strong enough to penetrate into the engine capartment & one round actually hit the engine block & busted a hole in it.
With busted block it dumped all oil out plus antifreeze. If it wasn't for that heavy round leaking radiator he would got away. But he never made more than few feet.
40 is the correct answer vs human sized questions
Interesting but not surprising. I would have loved to see a Paterson C&B revolver just to see the comparison.
Good grief, do this when it's warmer. I'm inside, and I was getting cold just watching
I have a remington new army with the conversion kit and its what i use for self defense. Unfortunately 15 years ago i caught a felony and have no choice
Very cool
Oh Btw great range of calibers. However sort of surprised you didnt include 44 S&W/ Russian. John wesley Hardin seemed to like it, kinda like a 45 ACP of its day in a S&W first model DA top break. Just dont drop the gun 😂
Very small amount of cavitation and low hydrostatic shock but super penetration. That's surprising. I mean I wouldn't want to be hit by it no way no how, but it did significantly less damage than remarkably smaller defence rounds.
Wow, after watching this video, I wonder how those old west pioneers, army, and even gunfighters manage to protect themselves with such underpowered loads.
These are loaded weak intentionally for the game of CAS. Original 45 Colt loads with 40 grains of FFG black powder propelled a 255 grain lead bullet at upwards of 900 fps. The 44 WCF (44-40) was a 200 grain bullet at around the same speed. This is more powerful than most 45 auto loads.
The channel Frontier Western Heritage has a few videos on the original loadings of each caliber.
@@reachvictoria3386 I realize that. I have a Marlin lever action .45 colt rifle. For a while I could only buy Cowboy ammo for it. I was at a range in AZ, with a Police officer. We talk about self defense ammo. He told me that while the Ammo was not the ideal ammo, it was better than nothing.
The loads that the old timers used were much more powerful!
Apprx. in the 900 to 950 fps. range!
A noticeable difference!!
I have a 45 "colt" Ruger vaquero & a 1892 lever action rifle in the same...
Cast my own bullet's from 1/2 wheel weights and 1/2 pure lead!
In deer sized critter's they expand to about
.750 diameter @ about 950 fps!
Anything with in 100 yrd's is toast!
I would love to see you do this with a hawken rifle and a round ball with a hunting load. It would be cool to see what an old old West gun would do
You can find video of a 45 flintlock Kentucky rifle on a ballistic dummy lab dummy very dramatic
Hitting bone would have expanded the bullets. Might have made a bit of a mess.
Load one, *skip* one, load four.
"...shut the door!" 😉
I dont know this to be true as a fact, but I believe .45 Colt became colloquially known as ".45 Long Colt" when .45 ACP rose to prominence, as a way to properly distinfuish the two calibers without any confusion.
How about the other S&W calibers like 44 American and 44 Russian?
I'm curious what the hardness was on the lead bullets? Would a softer lead alloy with just a little tin mushroom and cause cavitation? Thank you
Back in the day , up to WWll , ammo mfg used different alloys for different calibers and loads . Generally because Tin is More expensive than lead .
In design criteria soft enough for optimal Bullet Obduration in guns with varying bore and throat dimensions was more critical . Nobody wants to have either customer complaints about accuracy , or have buyers switch to different brand .
45 colt moving at 614 is well below old West performance. Its original performance was close to 1000fps topped on 40 grains of powder and its adjusted speed when the army adjusted the powder down to closer to 30 grains averaged around 750 fps range.
I would try to match their grain size, no fmj rounds, and at least try to match those old rounds with their modern smokeless equivalents in velocity.
I would suggest that these rounds would be much better for 4 legged critters. Penetration would be more important. I feel like comparing these loads to fbi standards is a bit irrelevant. I wonder if plain lead flat nose rounds of the style from the old west might have mushroomed a bit or not.
Well though slow, they would still be mimicking common .45 calibre cartridges at the time. The French Mas 1873 revolver threw a .45 calibre slug only around 550fps, downright sluggish by most metrics, but it was still coveted for its ability to drop a soldier in one or two shots.
The.455 Webley was was also throwing a slow slug around 700fps, and it was also known for its stopping power.
So while I’d definitely prefer my full bore .45 colt BP loads, I’d still feel rather comfortable carrying these slow loads in a pinch.
@@Beuwen_The_Dragon - I might have misunderstood. I thought this was an experiment on the effectiveness of these rounds back in the day. I’m wondering now if you were trying to see how these rounds would perform today with the standards of today.
I’ve always bet that even cowboy loads would suffice for self defense even though most consider them useless for anything other than CAS.
Soft lead would probably flatten out some. I think modern bullets at a given velocity would perform the same regardless of what gun they came out of.
Good, Thx
The .45 Colt was it and adopted in 1873 along with the Colt Single Action Army with 7.5 in barrel.
Smith & Wesson had its top break American in .44 American , this would be developed into the Smith & Russian and led to development of the first true modern cartridge the .44 Russian.
This led to a Civil War Veteran U.S. Army Officer developing the Schofield Smith & Wesson and the new .45 Schofield cartridge, a shorter cartridge , this cartridge and the 45 colt were totally different cartridge case dimensions esp , the rim.
You can not chamber 45 Colt into a .45 Schofield revolver it's to long.
You can indeed chamber an original. 45 Schofield Cartridge into a Colt 1873, having said that it was noted the .45 Schofield cartridges would slide to far forward in the Chambers out of the way of the firing pin, troopers would have to rattle their colts to reseat .45 Schofield Ammunition from time to time.
They were issued .45 Schofield Ammunition because it was cheaper then .45 Colt.
This caused numerous issues this lead Colt to cut down their .45 Colt Cartridge case down to .45 Schofield length known as the .45 Government.
Nice but will they penetrate a bar table like on TV
What kind of powder are you using ?
You couldn't shoot another round to get a Chrono reading from the .45 rifle? C'mon man.
There was also a .45 short Colt.
Actually some say Colt, some say Long Colt. Don't let the gun dweebs bully ya' 🤣
It was a moniker that stuck, as things often do.
Did Colt Factory use " Long Colt " ? No
Did gun guys commonly use Long Colt in conversation 75 , 100 , and more years ago ? Yup . If someone said Long Colt would everyone know what he was referring to ? Sure !
Buen día con bala hueca calibre 45 , se evitará daños colaterales??
Gracias saludos desde Panamá
Wilberto Mercado
Hollow points are generally preferred for preventing over penetration. But for the most part, as long as you are mindful on your target and beyond, overpen isn’t as much a problem as people think.
Were the 44-40 rounds flat point lead?
"they call a TMJ" actually TMJ is a common initialism for a "total metal jacket". Its got 100% jacket material no exposed base.
.45 Colt. Try'm with blackpowder and a lead bullet cast 1 in 16, tin to lead. You'll get real cowboy results.
If you're going down that road , ammo mfg documentation from 1800's and early 1900's showed lead alloys variously between 1:20 and 1:30 lead / tin .
I think you should have included thec38-40 and 32-20.
I have never reloaded the .45 Colt, or the .44 W.C.F., or the .45 Schofield, to use in a revolver, that had velocities that low. humm.
Where is this?
Most of your cowboy firearms were not metallic cartridges. They had them in the later years but to expensive for the average cowboy. Most had cap and ball black powder pistols.
Partially depends on how you define the Era. ( Insert the argument that in the rural West , living conditions , horses and wagons as primary transportation, etc , didn't start significantly start changing until 1920" s . Heck my late FIL in Nebraska unironically had his horse as his sole transportation until buying his first Tractor Trailer in late 1930's. Cars were toys for rich people , but big trucks were for making money .)
But yeah . In the early to mid Wild West Era, if you had a perfectly good war surplus Cap & Ball , or later Cartridge Conversion, it still worked fine for day to day ranch and farm use , why spend a month's income on the latest and greatest.
Even more broadly , it was uncommon to have to have a full size " fighting gun " unless you were a professional Peace Officer or a Gun Enthusiast.
As categories , Owl Heads , Bull Dogs , I've Johnsons, H& R "s , and various knock offs in .22 , .32 , and .38"s , than full size big bores , by a factor probably around 10 .
@@BlakeHouse-j3u yep, pistols were also luxury back then. Shotguns and rifles on the prairie to hunt for food for survival. Most people couldn’t afford a pistol to hang on their hip and rarely even came to town.
Or spent $1 -ish for an Owl Head vs $20 ‐ ish for SAA or similar class " serious pistol " .
We could have just asked Baldwin how it performed...
That issue was settled over 100 years ago.
I always thought the .45 Schofield was always known as the 45 Schofield. The army had enough Schofield in the inventory that although they adopted the 1873 SAA, they fed them with .45 Schofield. I had the opportunity to fire some .45 Colt rounds loaded with black powder thru an original SAA. They were hand loaded to original spec. I thought the load was pretty stout. I’ve since fired Cowboy Action loads thru clones, which was much less powerful. Never fired any of the modern SD loads, but your test seems to suggest that it’s still quite capable.
I pretty much only carry my full bore .45 BP loads, 40 gr of powder behind a 255gr RNFP. suits my needs. I certainly don’t feel undergunned with em.
You don’t need power for CAS. Targets are in spittin’ distance.
You can say their not good for self defense but I think if i got shot with one I would die
The 45 Colt and 45 Schofield were not the same there was quite a bit of difference in rim diameters.
The 45 Schofield revolver was chambered in this caliber, for the cylinder was not long enough for the 45 colt.
Thus 45 colt ammunition would not fit in the S&W Schofield revolver.
45 Schofield ammunition would fit in a Colt single action Army however, because of its smaller rim it would slide or should I say could slide forward in the 45 Colts cylinder and out of the way of the firing pin , thus the trooper would have to shake there revolver.
The 45 schofield ammunition was cheaper and thus our Government bean counter purchased this ammunition and provided it to Troopers armed with 45 Colt Army's.
Not a good idea.
This lead to development of a third cartridge the unknown .45 Government, a 45 Colt Case shortened to .45 schofield case length , this would be the cartridge that was used. And you can find them in Cartridges of the World.
Such ammo may be quite useful in a 'mob situation' where multiple attackers have you cornered. You can get two or three at a time to go 'ouch' with each round fired.
Nice Video But what was the purpose of this?
Ulitimately ... $$$
The goo blocks had a good life until this video.
I have never seen a 45 long colt. If you asked for it at the hardware store they would have no idea what you meant.
What, no 45-70??
Ya its not a ruger 44mag hot but it did its job
Got them both, I not sure there much difference. Think the .44 WCF has killed more Indians, Bad Guys, Good Guys, and everything else along the way.
I don't accept the concept of overpenetration. A center of mass shot through the sternum, going through the heart, and breaking the spine on the way out in a 300 lb bad guy can't fail. Whereas, a bullet that stops short of that CAN fail.
The concept of overpenetration and the goal of stopping in the magical distance of 12 to 18 inches of gel is an excuse to develop and sell overpriced ammo. Don't fall for it. Most of them fail to deliver what they promise. (Hell, you already know they lie about the velocity. And expansion depends on higher velocity.) A heavy-for-caliber LSWC or RNFP at low velocity (and low recoil) will get the penetration you need. In this video I saw his bullets go through 32 inches of gel with very little recoil and thought, "That's what I want!"
Just remember that the 4th Rule of Gun Safety always applies, even in a gun fight. "Know your target and what's behind it." Hollow points don't give you a pass on that rule. Cops, who carry hollow points, shout, "Watch out for cross fire," for a reason: misses and glancing hits.
Just goes to show the weight, not velocity, is needed for the popular "bear defense" idiology on the current "youtubes"..
This is very misleading. Are you talking about cartridges down loaded for Cowboy Action Shooting ? Or are you talking about the old west cartridges as they were originally loaded in the 1873-1890's ?
Loaded with 50 grains of BP both 45 colt and44/40 hit way harder than the cowboy loads. Cowboy loads are a joke
40 grains is the max for Holy black in a .45 Colt case, and even then you are compressing it hard.
I don't think you can get 50 grains of "any" kind of powder on a 45 colt!
Or did l misunderstand you!?!
“ A 45 will lift a man up, hurl him 100 yards, and up thru the uprights on a football field. “
This is Epideemiology… We have all seen the knock down power of a 45 written in Internet forums. This is how science works. Always follow the science…
PizzA
That is not a good idea to load that Henry standing on its butt and dropping those rounds down the tube that way , I know a lady 20 + Years ago who did it that way and had here hand over the magazine tube when the second round she dropped was set off by the first round , it resulted in a through and Through gun shot wound to her hand.
Lay the piece flat on the table and feed the rounds that way and you won't have a hole in your in hand
I was thinking the same thing!!!😅
Your test is completely invalid. Due to the fact your not using Black Powder for your loads. Another popular caliber was .38 Colt. Any ways, I'm out.
Non CAS , " Normal Smokeless " .45 Colt , i.e. W-W Super X , or R-P Green & Yellow Box is loaded to nominal 875 fps , typically chrono +/- 850 fps , in the same ballpark as BP .45 Colt , at least from 4 3/4 bbls .
" Cowboy Action " loads from the various varies greatly. From barely 600 fps to mid 700's . The faster ones at say 750 -ish aren't terrible for all around use .
Slower " Cowboy " .45 Colt is matching BP .45 Schofield .
Yes though, current .44- 40 is very mild compared to either BP , or mid 20th Century Smokless factory ammo .
And I intended to add also :
And with non expanding RN/FP 250-55 lead bullets , the terminal performance is very similar , at either 700 or 875 fps . .45 caliber wound track with 32 inch plus penetration. Might make a difference on a large bear , or large elk , but on human Felons or whitetail deer , either will give full penetration.