Papaji's lifestyle and teaching methods in the 70s and 80s
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- Опубліковано 3 чер 2013
- www.davidgodman.org
This is part of a series of interviews I gave to a Russian film crew in my old house in Tiruvannamalai around 2003. In this particular segment I talk about how Papaji lived and taught in the 1970s and 80s, before he settled down in Lucknow and became more famous.
Thank you very much David.
Wonderful! Wonderful! Thank you so much!
Thanks for that honesty. 👍👍
Thank you David. I so enjoy you sharing your knowledge and experiences with us. Be well my friend.
Thank You. Allways enjoyable to be here.
Thank you for sharing!!!
Thank you David.
Thank you David for the videos.Continued beauty and happiness to you sir.
Thank you!
🌺🙏
Thank you, David!
Blue envelope
🙏🌹
THANK YOU...! :D ^_^
i think that some are out for personal gain like people today especially. i like how Ramana marharshi didnt do that and Nisargadatta maharaj and they say you have the guru in you.
In the satsangs. The young guy always at the front, long hair, must b close disciple, love to hear his story's
David. Are there any teachers on a similar footing about today?
This is from Nisargadatta Maharaj (Q is the questioner; M is Nisargadatta):
Q: I must select my guru rightly.
M: Be the right man and the right Guru will surely find you.
Q: You are not answering my question: how to find the right Guru?
M: But I did answer your question. Do not look for a Guru, do not even think of
one. Make your goal your Guru. After all, the Guru is but a means to an end, not
the end in itself. He is not important, it is what you expect of him that matters to
you. Now, what do you expect?
what do you think of the debasement of his teaching by neo advaita adherants?
Volume plzzzzzz !!!!!!!!
Most of these topics are also covered in other videos. This one's just an old one and I reckon we're lucky to have them.☺️📿🕉️🙏✨
Bad mood comes when that one comes out of the Self/Now. But he can go back to it and is normal again. Being out one can create more Karma of course with bad behaviour. One must return to Self as soon as possible. Correct or not? But dont think about it too long. Go to Self now. 😊
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sai baba
Anger is an energy, a force that can help to deliver a teaching or affect an awareness in someone. If the Master uses it, he is not attached or identified in it. You could call it an expedient means, or kind of shock. The Master creates no karma for himself, as it is not some form of worldly ego acting out. It is just another energy tool at the Masters disposal for the benefit of the seeker. The ways of a Master can only be understood by another Master.
Or that can be used as an excuse. ..Da free John ,Cohen ,muktananda, etc etc
i was driver for some sivananda swamis and one consistent topic of conversation and subject of questions to me about them was "what is up with all the anger?".
Like laughter i think it is contagious and it seems it is fairly pervasive in the ashram-swamiji world. Plus a strict my way or the hi-way rule.
The swamis when i asked nearly all fell back on the "well--it is a teaching method" doncha know! Yes....that...is...non....sense!
You think their anger is a front ?
I think it could be that his tough personality also was what served him to actually get straight to the truth and not accept what was accepted
2 thumbs up
Video has no sound, only background noise.
Then how is it possible that I understood him? ☺️🕉️
volume volume....
It's an old video.☺️ Yet dozens of others are perfectly audible. Btw his books cover it all. 🕉️💙
@@mortalclown3812 u mustbe old 😉, digital recordings don t fade. It s a question of mic vol control when recording or aughmenting vol as editing?
There s no spiritiual need to read his books, just try abide constantly in tha Self. Also it s commun opinion that Papaji was not self realised so...?
Why this force which is leading isn't inside me also? When I stop then I stop. Whe I. Am quiet then also lifeforce is quiet and a process of leaving the body starts. Some kind of vanishing... Death. No missions like him. I immediately stop that process by being scared. It seems for some people enlightenment and death of body also happen simultaneously. I am sure if I allow I will be no more. It is annihilation somehow. And papaji says he is seing Krishna ram and so on they are visiting him for his darshan. Now who can say that these things are not coming from the mind also. Mind is capable of such hallucinations.
FIRE OF JNANA!
There is no such thing as "Papaji". This is a persistent idea that we attribute to him, from the error of seeing ourselves as separate, he as separate, and our perceptions as a real thing. What we see as attributes of a man called Papaji are a fiction. We give this fiction existence and continuity and shape that it simply does not have from the awakened perspective. This is why there can appear to be moods, imperfections, physical diseases etc in a 'perfect being' who is awake. The awakened essence is unaffected by our perceptions, or the entirety of the reality we take to be real, even though to us it appears to be so because we our still accepting the false reality we claim to want freedom from yet still perpetuate. Ramana Maharshi, I believe, tried to intimate this when he talked about the physical toll, on his own body, those who came to him had. Although the awakened nature is pure and untouched in Ramana, the conditioned body, personality which is a function of that body, and all its accumulated attributes, which are only sustained by the false perceptions within this illusion, can be affected. On the worldly level, Ramana's own body and "karma" perpetuate a seemingly physical existence that has qualities. This is only true to us, within the illusion, and is totally unrelated in any real way to the awakened core of being. Cancer, in his case, could still happen to the body. Anger could still arise. All things which can happen to any other person still in the illusion we all accept can happen to the idea we see as "Ramana" or "Papaji". Yet, their essence is untouched. They are beyond their bodies, beyond the time and space that appears to us to separate them. It is only within the illusion we create that any of this has existence/ From an awaken perspective, there can be NO OBJECT, ONLY SUBJECT, pure and without anything describable. When we continue to see and describe there "interesting" things about a guru or teacher or awakened one etc, we must understand that we are merely creating qualities that do not exist. Play with them if you must, but they are not real. As Annamalai Swami once said, "No two".
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There’s certainly no such thing as “Papaji’s grace”.
Papaji devotees won’t hear this though.
Ramana said “If grace is external, it is useless”
I don't get it- how can one that has become 'enlightened' behave badly in relation to other people or the morals of the society? I mean dissociating their human life from the consciousness of 'I am'. How is living in peace, joy and love compatible with being attached to matter [e.g. lust, eating, drinking alcohol or tobacco smoking]= ego?
I'd expect that by committing to this spiritual lifestyle would trigger changes in one's human life [which wasn't satisfactory, that's why one becomes a seeker of something better in the first place]. If it doesn't why bother?! I mean if I have an anger problem or an addiction of some sort, for example, how can I become enlightened and keep those problems too? Wouldn't this look like schizophrenia and disharmony?
I'm not judging Papaji or others here, just trying to find out what I can expect for myself [and other around me that would be impacted by what I'm doing].
7 YEARS LATER:
I am editing these initial thoughts hoping that the evolution of understanding and direct experience be useful to others still seeking 'enlightenment'. The great confusion that misleads people watching this kind of materials is the universal love for stories combined with indulgence in imagination, which deceive the seeker believing that they are onto something, finally on their way to finding an answer/solutions to their quest for the truth.
So long as the reader of these lines perceives separation, imagining an individual behind the words while ignoring the evidence that all imagination and perception of the world is not caused by the world but by ideas appearing and disappearing in consciousness, the reader will remain trapped in illusion. There is no Papaji, no Goodman, no daisilui and no world without you, the reader. If they were but you were not, what would it matter?! You- the reader, are the key to everything, to any happening.
But now, the next great confusion comes from the irrational self-identification with a body, the doer and receiver of doings- the one who experiences love, peace, joy or anger, sadness, despair... What is a body without the air to breath? Who is producing their own air; who by their shear will can grow an inch taller, or 'prolong their life with one hour'? Where do you draw the line between what you identify as 'me' vs 'not me'- are the billions of bacteria inhabiting the body, without which the body can't function, 'me'? What controls digestion, blood flow, hair growth, any other physiological functions of the body. If none can occur without the fundamental needed air to breath, water to drink and food to eat, why would you talk about 'me and mine', about 'me the exerciser of will/me the doer?!' Isn't then the air, water and food that take the form of the body, that which is the doer? And they in their turn are the result of the earth's atmosphere, the sun, the milky way, ultimately, the universe. As St. Paul puts it: "For what makes you so superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?" So if talking about the doer, let's get things straight, by looking at facts- there is no doer other than the universe, or God, if you wish.
The key to understanding is looking at facts using logic and reason applied to direct experience and not on hearsay opinion, speculation or imagination. When the false is seen for what it is and the mind's job is done, leave the mind behind- 'where the mind ends, reality begins.' It is in the ignoring of the mind, in detachment from ideas, sensations, emotions, feelings and thoughts that the truth reveals itself as that in which life energy moves incessantly, in which forms change in other forms and the string of events follow each other in number and diversity, while life remains unaffected and unchanged. This understanding happens only in contemplation, not while the mind is engaged in worldly matters, looking at them through the prism of desire and fear, for the profit of an inexistent 'me'. Depending on perspective, you are either the never ceasing 'white noise/buzz' of life energy, or the ethereal-eternal 'space' in which life energy manifests through temporary forms and events. As Nisargadatta says~ reality is not empty but full to the brim [with life energy], and 'in love I am everything, in wisdom I am nothing, between the two my life flows'. As life, I am all, as reality, I am nothing- contemplate life and reality by being, not by thinking!
I also find it quite peculiar, it seems to go against the understanding of becoming a holistic person Dan eM
Dan eM
What is enlightened?? When can you look at someone and offer them the view of the self and help them to have a realization? What your expectation of a spiritual person is, is mine as well. Enlightenment is the egos ultimate disappointment.
+MRoderics well, he was an 'irritable, feisty, abrasive, rude... man, not an easy man to work or live with'. That's worse than smoking or drinking as it affects others not your own little self only. I don't know much about Papaji but Nisargadatta claimed that his doings and sayings were an expression of awareness, not of the man [he also smoked biddies] and that there was no one who was the doer and things just happened. i can understand things happening in the natural way of the body-mind existence but is anger natural? What is anger?
+MRoderics i am not a worshiper in general and of humans in particular, regardless whether Hollywood stars, badminton stars, music masters or saints ; i just wonder about what realizing the nature of the Self and living as the Self means. In the realm of non-duality there's no gurus to like or dislike, there's no 'me' to chose, and there's no bodies and body types- all is One. i am not yet able to understand the play of Lila intertwined with the absolute truth. i go back to my question- what is anger? who gets angry? And if the answer is that there's no one who gets angry and no there's anger and no perceiver of anger... well, that would make me angry... :)
+daisilui Even ideas like peace and love are of the mind. The truth can never be chained into any idea however beautiful. We would like to think that enlightened ones should be this and not this, but that would be a chain. I would like to say that the ultimate truth is freedom, but even that idea is of the mind and ultimately untrue.
Good communication is not the same as being self-realised. It fact, silent communication is the essence of being self-realised. This is symbolized by Dhakshina Murthi - 'the Ideal teacher'. Good communication is just good marketing. In fact the western materialism and culture is based on excitement and good communication skills and not necessarily truthful communication of an experience. It is surprisingly misleading, that the well informed David Godman couldn't recongnise this basic difference between Poonja ji and other self realised people he has met. The variations in Poonja ji's moods is a clear indication of his instability, which is not a part of niguna-brahman or Brahma-gnani. Historically many dictators have had great communication skills and short-term positive impact on their audience.
every guru is different, ur a dumbass if u think u can judge them with out being in their presence.
I concur, Poonja was full of himself as one can glean from his "biography" where he shared all those sensational incidences where Gods appear before him and bow to him and worship him. That's the comment of a narcissist, no true Jnani would share something like that about himself, there is no need for it. Only a big fat ego is in the need to share with the world of its (fantasy) greatness :-)
Did Sri Ramana share something like that? Of course not. Neither did Muruganar, Jesus, Kabir, Rumi, Ramakrishna and many other true Jnanis.
Yes, Isaac Shapiro said of Papaji: “when he was miserable, he was miserable”.
Numerous first hand accounts also speak of his pride, jealousy, and nasty mood swings.
When you have the likes of Ramana, why stray?
I guarantee that if he didn’t have the ability to give (temporary) Shaktipat, which he called “Lolipops”, nobody would have bought his tall tales for a second!
People thought they were getting not just “grace”, but “Ramana’s grace”. though him! (Like catching a cold!)
Ramana himself said that Self realization can’t be given, but Poonja allowed people to think they “got it” from him.
He left so many people confused.
I disagree. Nisargdatta maharaj also had a temper. That’s his destiny. This does not nullify his spiritual grace
I was listening to a Sam Harris podcast and near the end he got onto the subject of his travels to India and meeting the most remarkable of human being (almost Sam's words).. He then said the man's name, Poondaji.. Very interesting. Sam usually keeps a poker face in his books and audio's but that particular video Sam Harris let his hair down so to speak. So Papaji was the real deal.
Sam Harris may have praised Papaji in that podcast, however in his book "Waking up" he is much more critical about him. He relays a personal experience where Papaji declared a woman as 'enlightened' and invited her to sit with him on the pedestal and celebrated her 'enlightenment'. Most or all present believed that this woman was indeed enlightened.
Later Harris and also that woman traveled with a group to Tibet to see a different teacher of the Dzogchen tradition who curiously looked at that woman when he heard of her 'enlightenment'. He asked her a question and that question snapped her out of her mind-imposed belief to be enlightened and her joyous and radiant demeanor changed suddenly to confusion. So much for her 'enlightenment'.
Why would a so-called self-realized master declare people as enlightened and flatter them and also deceive them in that way? Papaji did that with many seekers who showed up at his place.
Of course one could rationalize that as a way of playing with the ego or something like that. I rather believe that Papaji was spiritually advanced but not self-realized himself and just duped a bunch of people including David Godman. Let's not forget, all these stories in his biography are from Poonja himself, so Godman just wrote down the fiction he got from Poonja automatically believing that this was the truth. I first believed that too but I changed my mind since there are too many things which point more to that Poonja was not truthful with his stories.
Robert Adams, another David Godman favorite, turned out to be a con-man and impostor and Papaji praised him. How could a Jnani praise an impostor unless he is an impostor himself?
Godman does not know who is self-realized and who is not. He just relays his own beliefs and assumptions ......
@@bernhard1071 papaji was self realized, he completed the journey when he meant ramana maharshi. anther sign that papaji was enlightenment is that he liked robert adams teachings. papaji, robert adams and ramana maharshi were all enlightned. ramana maharshi was their guru and helped them both come to final realization. ur an idiot for not respecting these 3.
@@thedukeofnuts To start look up the Sri Ramanasramam house magazine "Mountain Path", it can be accessed for free online, and I refer to the 2020 II April edition, the editorial "Who is a Genuine Guru?", particularly the footnote 5 which refers to Adams.
Then check out the 2020 III July edition on page 31, an article by Kitty Osborne, "The Question of Integrity" where she calls Adams basically a pathetic liar.
There are many statements of women who were sexually assaulted by Adams, nothing new and ignored due to him being that what people like to believe, however now it's obvious that he was just an ordinary guy who could tell a good story and bamboozle quite a few people.
There is more to find online, google "Steven Strouth" and look for an article about Robert Adams.
@@bernhard1071 Yes, also Adams told stories about doing seminars with Yogi Bhajan.
I don't think we can believe anything from Adams, but Yogi Bhajan has been revealed as as a sexual abuser. Yet another instance that Adams had a sloppy backstory.
If he was a Jnani, he would have had the discrimination to know Bhajan was a fake. I imagine he probably never even met Bhajan, but it's yet another hole in his tall tales.
@@bernhard1071 I loved reading your words, it always seemed to me that David Godman was too hypnotized or transfixed in the presence of these gurus such as Nisagardatta and Papaji to really let his clear discernment take over. With Ramana I think it’s completely different story but who knows really…