Why Do Your Legs Hurt Whilst Cycling? | GCN Show Ep.401
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- Опубліковано 6 сер 2024
- That burning sensation of lactic acid in your legs as you're cycling is all too familiar to anybody that rides a bike! But what if we told you it's not actually lactic acid that you can feel? Turns out, hydrogen ions are actually a cyclist's worse enemy, and we all owe lactic acid an apology! This week on the GCN Show, Dan and Si discuss. We also have all our usual features from inspiration, hack and bodges, and a special cycling shorts bulletin!
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Leave us a comment below! - Спорт
What's the worst 'Hydrogen Ion' experience you've ever had on the bike? Let us know in the comments below!
Can you please post links to sources on this info? I'm keen to read more :)
Chemist here:
For these kinds of acids, such as lactic acid, the reaction can be written as
acid + base ‘equilibrium’ conjugate base + conjugate acid.
(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%C3%B8nsted%E2%80%93Lowry_acid%E2%80%93base_theory)
For so lactic acid the equilibrium is:
Lactic acid (acid) + water (base) ‘equilibrium’ lactate ion (conjugate base) + hydronium (also called oxonium) ion (conjugate acid)
(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydronium)
Or
CH3CH(OH)COOH + H2O ‘equilibrium’ CH3CH(OH)COO(-) + H3O(+)
There are no ‘free’ hydrogen ions because they’re in a water solution. For convience the H3O(+) is often written just as H(+). But it’s understood that the hydrogen is connected to a water molecule.
So really it should be called:
“What’s your worst ‘Hydronium ion’ experience you’ve ever had on the bike?”
Or even more correct:
“What’s your worst ‘Oxonium ion’ experience you’ve ever had on the bike?”
But I guess it’s more of a question of semantics of what causes the burn. Without the lactate to cause the hydronium ion, there would be nothing there to burn you. You can’t have one without the other. So it’s not really a myth.
So shall we follow the triathletes then and start making post-ride baking soda compresses?
A 16° climb in the Philippines when its 45°C... IT BURNS!
Sorry, but probably your attempt at explaining it! Please let Ollie do it again, I am sure he can explain it in a comprehensible way. You guys were pretty confusing.
That 6.8 ph for cells to keep functioning must have something to do with the UCI weight limit.
Suspect those cells adapt to tolerate low PH in some athletes more than others.
The hydrogen ions actually make your legs lighter, making cycling up hills easier. The harder you cycle, the lighter your legs get. If you cycle hard enough, your legs will float up above your head, turning you upside down. This happened to me once on an ascent in the Scottish Borders on Route 1, and I ended up travelling a hundred yards through the air before crashing.
I know this is supposed be a joke. But you know hydrogen ions has nothing to do with being “light” right? Otherwise all car batteries will fly.
Hugh, funny Haochi, irony!, both funny
Thanks mate, climbing don’t get any easier but I at least had a good laugh 😂
"in a process called lactating" GOLD!
Can't believe how much I laughed at that lol
Wonder if Manon said, "Me Too" thinks that's funny.🤐🤫
Total Dad joke
Wait what moment lol!
Dying right now, Ha, Ha, Ha!!!!1
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I teach Exercise Physiology and even some of my students don't believe me when I teach them exactly what you've taught today because the lactic acid myth is strong. And yet, I learned this 20 years ago. Thank you for speaking truth about that H+!
What did he teach
"Rainy bridge into Manhattan" may be the finest, most creative photo composition you've ever featured.
"Lactate is a good thing because you can metabolise it and get energy out"... Can't the same be said of ethanol?
And GCSE chemistry, as others have pointed out, is enough to tell you that lactate is merely the conjugate base of lactic acid!
And that the H+ ions come from the lactic acid...
I hugged a huge tree last year ,, a fallen tree on a bend , at 30kmph , I hugged it so hard I knocked my self out and completely snapped all my tendons / ligaments in my right ac joint ,, full backward dislocation of third finger from middle knuckle ouch when I ripped it back in place , and was told I would never play squash again by three surgeons ! Met Alexander Kolobnev (x road race god )in Spain who runs a rehab clinic “synchrolab Javea”for tree hugging cyclists and 18 months later I’m back stronger than ever but slightly buckled ,, cheers Alex ...
🥴
what? 😵
Make your username's simple folks.
Ok, I'll go for Gravelgirl.
Dan: 'Grave L Girl'
As much as I love public science (and think there should be more) you've made some omissions in making this accessible to the lay community that border on the erroneous.
For your consideration:
When you dissolve a chemical in water it exists in its ionic form (e.g. salt, NaCl, is Na+ and Cl-).
Acidity is a measure of hydrogen ion (H+) concentration in solution.
Sensory neurones (some) do detect and signal nociception which the brain interprets as pain. Some of these neurones have receptors that are activated by H+ (acid). TRPV1 (which is also activated by capsaicin/chilli) is one of these receptors and so will be activated by H+ and the subsequent signal interpreted as pain.
Are you talking about blood pH or the pH local to the muscle (where the neuronal receptors will be) which can be quite different as H+ concentration will be higher (and therefore pH lower) nearer to where it is generated.
The loss of potassium (K+) ion gradient across the muscle cell membrane you describe is a form of depolarising block. This also influences the transition of voltage-gated sodium channels in the muscle cell membrane from their inactivated state to a closed state (where they can be re-opened) which is both time and voltage dependent.
There's a lot there and I'm being quite superficial myself so it's hard to determine if the title is click-bait, a mis-interpretation due to over simplification or a genuine scientific fact that is widely misunderstood.
I applaud your attempt but surely there are plenty of exercise physiologists/neuroscientists out there who are keen cyclists that would be happy to help fact check this information.
Otherwise keep up the good work, I've recently discovered the channel and I'm enjoying the content, cheers.
Also, should point out that lactate is produced when glucose is metabolised with insufficient oxygen.
I'm not sure if i missunderstood something too, but isn't releasing H+ and forming lactate just dissolving lactic acid? So it's still the lactic acid being the problem but just in it's dissolved form?
@@markus51095 yes, lactate is just the deprotonated form of lactic acid (simplification: lactic acid in its dissolved form). As lactic acid has a pKa of 3.86 most of it will be deprotonated within the body (ofc. there are exceptions for certain cell structures, where the pH is low enough to have most be protonated).
@@GrafEnsker But then the message of the video (with exception of the potassium part) is something like: it's not water but molten ice.
Maybe we can get Dr Olie on this...
you two are just such a dreamteam! So harmonic together! great show guaranteed
It felt good to see Si after a long time💯
Well done guys your jokes get better every week ;)
They make jokes?
Caption: I just can't ever win that yellow GCN water bottle.
The indoor bike shower might be my favorite hack of all time! Could wash a doggo in there too
Don't laugh, that's how I wash my track bike! Dishwashing liquid works great to clean used transmission fluid from the chain stay. Didn't bite on the snake wax band wagon! It doesn't last long enough and doesn't get the Ks. Also doesn't blast grease out of bearings.
"America's only Tour de France winner, Greg LeMond..." Ah, bittersweet times.
Yeah as if Froome or Miguel Induráin didn't dope. Sick of the hypocrisy.
We don't know that for sure. The early days of the tour were worse. Destroying a competitor's bike and using a train were not unknown tactics. That said I don't remember the name of a disgraced competitor or a show that person has on UA-cam.
@@numbronepackfan says every criminal in prison. or death row. or having to go to the back of your room. look at the morons actions denying the truth. just a no name cheat. wear it.
I thought so too. A bit unnecessary. Lance won for sure. Everyone was at it.
That guy is a fraud in my eyes. No rationalizing for me.
“Doesn’t sounds quite as dramatic...”
Love Si bodging the slash movement at the start of hack/bodge of the week! Felt it really emphasised the title! 😂
Caption - Masks are a Vittel precaution in these times
Perhaps I have dramatically misunderstood my chemistry 101 class from college, but isn't the effect of any acid (including lactic acid) an increase of hydrogen ions and thus the effect of the acid?
Cool show guys! Cheers🍻
Recall that pH is a negative logarithmic scale, so going from 7.4 to 7.0 is quite a significant increase in H+ concentration. In any case all of what you've presented here has been known quite a long time to exercise physiologists but still worth presenting.
Love the bike shower!
14 min into the show and 5 adverts already. UA-cam is so much fun nowadays
Great show lads, the only thing that's missing is the gust of wind and tumbleweed after Dan's suggestion for the caption competition :-P
So who's gonna tell em hydrogen ions and acid are the same thing
No one.
That is just what i was going to say. Hydrogen ions are quite literally the definition of acid.
@@georgenissen7985 Only according for the Bronsted-Lowry concept of acids. Lewis acids are also a thing.
...and that lactic acid and lactate are basically the same molecule. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactic_acid
I passed a crash course in chemistry and I knew that.
The second place photo was the road into Wasdale head in the Lake District
I would have thought Ollie could have told them that - it's not far from Eskdale and Hardknott Pass, which we know is one of Ollie's favorites.
I think a bike weighing a thousand pounds would be a bigger challenge. 😂
Not if it has 100 hp.
I sense a bit of cheekyness from these two 👟
Me as an American listening to the preview for Sunday's video: "Wow! How do you even ride a 1000 lbs bike?!
oh, nvm.... it's the other kind of pound"
Took me a few seconds to sit back, dumbfounded as to how someone could pedal something like that... before realizing what they meant.
Presumably you would have called it a 10 hundred bike?
🤣
I still get caught out with this, too. A "One Thousand Pound Bike".
Please please please get Mathieu van der Poel to say "I'ts time for cycling shorts"
Caption: What does the lead out train do after it finishes? It keeps chugging.
I thought it derailed
25:08 I know him!
Haha - straight to the KOMments of the week section!
@@gcn I was just toooo excited to wait ;-)
@8:12 location is Wast water in Cumbria / Lake District in the UK
So I think the real question here is - what can we do to reduce the onset of the "burning" during a high intensity workout? Would saturating my body with potassium (like eating a couple of bananas beforehand) help reduce the pain? I alternate between two days at the gym and 2-3 days on my bike to train for XC (I know...I know...it's MTB, but GMBN has no video on this topic!).
My problem is that my legs can't keep up with my heart. That is, when I'm at full tilt I *_feel_* like I could go harder, longer, faster, etc but my legs are on the verge of giving out because the pain becomes so intense. Several times both at the gym and on my bike, I've thought to myself, "If my legs weren't hurting so bad, I could push harder for a bit longer." I monitor my BPM with a Fitbit, and after several weeks of regular training recently I can't even reach my "peak zone BPM" anymore because my legs give out before I can exceed/hold 162 BPM. I know I *_could_* get there if not for the hydrogen ion pain.
One other note: For years, the "lactic acid" theory has led to hundreds of consumable products that advertise as combatants for lactic acid, such as Stroop Wafels or gels. The oft-cited "science" is that they're heavily packed with amino acids, which they claim is a deterrent. If the "hydrogen ion" thing is true, does this mean that all that gobbledygook from Stroop is just a marketing gimmick? I've eaten a couple of their wafels in the past before a high intensity ride and they *_seemed_* to have improved performance, but could've just been a placebo effect.
Bottom line: I need advice on what I can eat/drink before a workout/hard ride/race to stave off the pain long enough to for me to hold redline for at least an hour.
More "bad weather" inspiration pics please! It's easy to get on the bike when the weather is great...but who does not need inspiration, when autumn and winter is approaching...in the Northern Hemisphere that is.
I wish you guys filmed Hank's reaction when he finds out what his newest challenge is. I can only imagine the despair on his face!
SURPRISE... blimey that’s early in the day. What happened ? 😂😂😂👏
Brilliant guys 👏👏👏🇦🇺
15:47 Love the paint splash theme on the shoes! ^_^ Looks like they belong on Connor Swift with his custom bike shown in GCN ep 36.
Last 2 min I noticed Dan's eyes running to left every few sec like something is going on back there and he's trying to focus on main camera haha (what's going on) 😄
Pain is an evolutionary adaptation to warn of impending injury. Cycling trains mental toughness. I carried a heavy low speed drill and Skill saw in one hand with one finger. It hurt. With no difficulty I carried it 75 meters to my car trunk. Same with training. Micro damaged a bit too many muscle fibers and project 2 weeks recovery time! Excessive hydrogen ions, probably. Learning is also an evolutionary process.
Lol @ Dan wearing a brand new shirt out of the packaging
That wet bridge is beautiful, very inviting to anyone on a steel bike.
Caption: Nothing beats an upset stomach like Pepto Ketones
Thank you for all the wonderful videos and content! makes #lockdown bearable. What are the chance of GCN making a training video where a group of you just do a 2h+ ride without editing it and post it in the training section? Then I can sit on my trainer(dumb) and ride with the presenters of GCN for a bit and see some UK scenery, and listen to everyone bantering :)
I think you need to ask Ollie about the relationship between lactic acid, lactate, and free hydrogen ions in the body. Ultimately they're the same thing.
Dan and Si. On your statement about straight bridges. Three months ago I watched a video about "The unholy Trinity of Bridge Stupidity in Copenhagen". The first bridge had to change direction twice. Mainly to stop people riding of walking in to the glass panels at the ends of the centre section. Which slids out of the way for boats. Cyclist still come in too fast and add to the skid marks on the the bridge. The second one does go anywhere important. The third one goes to a confusing cross roads. At least there are traffic lights at the junction. Oh, that makes even more confusing.
I know why I grind to a halt when I am exhausted. I am knackered.
Challenge for the GCN to go thru the entire tour de France 2020 edition 😁 would be great to see how the guys work as a team and how far off are they from their pro days. 👍Awesome channel
Absolutely it's free H ions that makes that burning sensation in your legs. That's what pH measures after all, and the sensation indicates a boost in acidity. Incidentally, the pH level required to convert the cation salt (lactate) into actual lactic acid would in reality kill you -- or anybody.
PLEASE do a segment on derailer clutches. Could you also do a segment on SCHEDULED BIKE MAINTENANCE and the best system to write down, hang on the wall so you can see what gets what when etc.
The gin tech channel might have some videos on this
GMBN might help on derailleur clutches...
Would an asymmetric crank set up work better than the shins. For example a 172.5 crank on one side a 170 on the other side?
Caption: Next on GCN Meta: how to drink cycling's marketing Kool-Aid just like your favourite pros.
What was marketed in this vid? You must be a bitter person. I was entertained and enjoyed their show, as I suspect the others did.
@@stevek8829 This is a submission for the Caption Competition. The professional rider in the image is drinking what could be construed as Kool-Aid. In cycling discourse there are often people who bemoan cycling marketing that encourages people to imitate professional riders, but offers them very little substantive benefit. Therefore, the joke turns from the figurative drinking of Kool-Aid to the literal.
Sure, it adopts cynical undertones from the people who engage in that discourse, but the joke is rather intended to make light of these attitudes.
I'll often remark that some brands just make great Kool-Aid.
I’ve just done a biology test and during anaerobic exercise glucose goes through the body and the products of that are carbon dioxide and lactic acid
looks like Wastwater in the Lake Dist. to me. I remember walking up that mountain quite a few years ago. Found 4 oranges abandoned on the lakeside too, bit weird!
Interesting video folks. Prof Ross Tucker has been talking about this on The Science of Sport podcast
Hello, I have been watching your videos and it's been great help for me to know more about this sports.
Pls help with the health checks to be conducted to see if I'm fit to ride long distance? Many thanks in advance 👍
"Touch Wood" talk about a sugar coated way to describe crashing into a tree (or two). 😉
I like the growth
What about Lance?
I've checked several times for those yellow bottles, are they not available in the US?
Never thought I would see empty lanes on the Brooklyn Bridge
Whats the best road bike for some one not wanting to spend a lot of money
Caption - "Pre-race hydration for Cataldo. Brought to you be Vittel and Covid."
Modern art: “I could do that!” ...but you didn’t
I love how humble Dan is. That sounds mean to Si, Si you're ace too!
In Sheffield a bunch of lanes were converted to huge bike lanes but were almost always empty and the traffic became awful! Not surprising they've turned them back to regular lanes. On top of that, there was a cycle lane there to begin with!
What the flip are you talking about? I feel like I need a translator.
Tim Miller oh dear 😂 In the episode they mentioned cycle lanes that were put in place during lockdown are now being removed. I was chiming in to say that’s happening near me. They had converted “car” lanes into bike lanes and are now converting them back. But it’s a good thing as nobody was using them anyway and it made the traffic much worse losing a “car” lane.
Matthew Kefford ok cheers🍻
The second GCN Inspiration photo is at the side of Wastwater looking towards England's tallest mountain, Scafell Pike (well, it's more to the right in the photo) :)
My legs hurt because I'm in pain. It's not complicated.
^ yup lol though I’m in pain cause I’ve goosed my knee 👀
Caption: this would taste better out of a GCN bidon a yellow one of course.
A 1,000 pound bike?!?!?! I don't think i could turn the pedals on a bike that heavy. Looking forward to that video.
The second photo by the Lake is Wasdale is the English Lake District.
OMG after 400 and 1 episodes I think Dan finally nailed the CC......
Very interesting! Way to break it down with such detail. So if Amp Human lotion claims it buffers lactic acid then it is really only blocking your cheese 🧀 intake???? 😂😂😂I’ve tried Amp Human and never felt a difference other than smelling it during my rides. 🤷🏻♂️Great topic guys!
13:59 wow look at the back wheel lock up.
Caption:
UNMASKED: Al-ectrolyte Valver-drinks the key to Team Movistar's TDF nutrition strategy?!
Caption:"Not 100% sure if I'm allowed to drink on tha bus, so I'll have my Vittel outside in the sun, like a proper Movistar."
Does anyone know what happened to the kovert bike range or the cycle premier team, they disappeared without a digital trace?
Montreal, Canada - we had loads of new biking lanes placed for social distancing, which in the past month, have been reclaimed by cars and soon to be, snowstorms.... meh.
Honestly I could sit here and listen to the Hack/Bodge music theme all day...
Hope Primož will win. But - no matter what happens at la boucle, you're the best cycling commentators on globe. Dan, Cy, chapeau.
Love the yellow GCN Bottles are they going to be available in the shop?
Great ride Guys TCRs all the way 👍🏼
If only GCN could get someone with a Doctorate degree in chemistry to help explain this, I wonder where they might find such an individual? It would be even better if this individual was also a cyclist.
We'll let Ollie talk about chemistry on the GCN Show when he sorts out that mullet...
As much as having a chemist would help, they don't necessarily understand how said chemical reaction works in the human body.
A chemist wouldn't know much about what the human body goes through during excercise. A biologist, a biochemist or a sports scientist would be a tiny bit better.
@@gcn this deserves clarifications on next episode and a proper explanation by an expert.
@@gcn so not only did you screw up the lactate/lactic acid thing now you don't know what a mullet is either.
Hint: Business at the front, party in the back ie when the hair on top of your head is substantially shorter than at the back.
It was popular with '70s football players and apparently still is in Australia.
The Irony of the complicated usernames, when the link to the GCN shop is almost encrypted 😂
Caption "Drinking is the only excuse I can use to try and even out those face mask tan lines"
Caption: I know i should be wearing this mask, but i really need the l'eau.
We need a video about the best tire for riding on tar and chipped roads. Many of the local roads received this treatment this summer making them almost like a gravel road.
Caption: If only I could get my hands on a slick yellow bottle to match the helmet...
I haven't even seen the video, but I can confirm one thing.
Since going vegan, never had sore muscles/lactic acid feeling. Ever! Nothing else changed but my diet. Even if I don't ride a lot and then do a century ride out of the blue, or do 3 days straight of 100km days, never had that feeling.
I wouldn't want to be napping in that hammock while someone decided to wash their bike at the end of it!
@Dan On Gravel you use mostly the rear brake
Thanks you, thank you, thank you for addressing "Lactic Acid". I'm so tired if hearing those two words and knowing it's wrong.
Inspiration photo 2 looks like Wastwater in the lake district, was not that quiet last weekend!
I like the idea of Hank TDF challenge. He could ride one of this year's race routes that had a more forgiving time-cut and see if he can make it. Solo break-away Hank. Maybe a fellow GCN presenter or two could jump in and pull for a bit. It would be a good addition to your new "epic rides" content that has been a hit. Just make it more than a 20 minute episode.
Just call it the 'H-burn' from now on...
Nice - that could catch on!
Just imagine Ollie or Si screaming it, "I've got the dreaded H-burn coming on!!!"
@@gcn Hopefully misconception like this won't catch on.
Huehuehue
I just want to point out that Lactate is the conjugate base of lactic acid, and they inter convert, and a build up of lactate and lactic acid which will be in equilibrium. So there will be lactic acid there also. You need both a chemistry and biology lesson, so back to school for you both. Maybe you should have asked Ollie as he has a degree in chemistry and a PhD i'm told so he at least should have known this.
Hi guys great show. Si you hate wire ties but, you lover anything 3D printed. This begs the question what if someone 3D printed pull or wire tires?
The second place picture is Wastwater in Cumbria.
for some reason when you said £1000 bike i was thinking 1000lb bike and i just couldnt even imagine how that was possible