Why Wasn't There an Italian "Nuremberg / Tokyo War Crimes" Trial After WWII?
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- Discover the untold story of Italian war crimes during WWII and why there was never an "Italian Nuremberg" to hold fascist officials accountable for their brutal actions.
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Today I found out that Simon is still gettin' gooned up on poppers before these shows after nearly a decade still!!
You forgot to mention that the soviet union initially belonged to the axis, fully supporting genocide and even out doing other fascists... And the evil allies willingly allied with stalin...
STOP! Just stop! Please. This lie keep floating around and it is despicable. There was a Tokyo War Crimes Trial, convictions and executions. After 31 months and more than 800 court sessions, the trial of 25 major Japanese leaders led to 7 death sentences, 16 condemned to life imprisonment, one to 20 years, and another to 7 years. The main Nuremberg Trial by comparison: 12 were sentenced to death (one in absentia) 10 of them hung in 1946, and the rest were given prison sentences ranging from 10 years to life behind bars. Hermann Göring committed suicide the night before his execution. The Germans kept records, the Japanese didn't or they were destroyed in firebombing. But the numbers are VERY CLOSE! And there were subsequent trials after Nuremberg, but also executions of Japanese war criminals in China, Philippines, etc. And a lot of Japanese war criminals committed suicide in the field. Now, if you want to talk about the Japanese Emperor specifically, fine. On his order, something only he could do, he got Japan to surrender for the first time in 1,000 years. And to subjugate themselves (and himself) to the Supreme Commander: McArthur. This, in exchange for NOT having a 20 year occupation fighting a guerrilla war in Japan where GI's would need to machine gun and burn with flamethrowers Japanese 12 year old girls charging at them with sharpened sticks. A fair trade, don't you think? So PLEASE! STOP THE LIE that the USA didn't hold Japanese war criminals accountable. It's not true.
STOP! Just stop! Please. This lie keep floating around and it is despicable. There was a Tokyo War Crimes Trial, convictions and executions. After 31 months and more than 800 court sessions, the trial of 25 major Japanese leaders led to 7 death sentences, 16 condemned to life imprisonment, one to 20 years, and another to 7 years. The main Nuremberg Trial by comparison: 12 were sentenced to death (one in absentia) 10 of them hung in 1946, and the rest were given prison sentences ranging from 10 years to life behind bars. Hermann Göring committed suicide the night before his execution. The Germans kept records, the Japanese didn't or they were destroyed in firebombing. But the numbers are VERY CLOSE! And there were subsequent trials after Nuremberg, but also executions of Japanese war criminals in China, Philippines, etc. And a lot of Japanese war criminals committed suicide in the field. Now, if you want to talk about the Japanese Emperor specifically, fine. On his order, something only he could do, he got Japan to surrender for the first time in 1,000 years. And to subjugate themselves (and himself) to the Supreme Commander: McArthur. This, in exchange for NOT having a 20 year occupation fighting a guerrilla war in Japan where GI's would need to machine gun and burn with flamethrowers Japanese 12 year old girls charging at them with sharpened sticks. A fair trade, don't you think? So PLEASE! STOP THE LIE that the USA didn't hold Japanese war criminals accountable. It's not true.
Please watch the video before commenting to see what we say about it all. 😋
The idea of the Italians simply publishing a list of public enemies who could be killed with impunity and without trial is darkly ironic, because it has happened before. When Julius Caesar was a young man, the Dictator Sulla published such a list, which is usually referred to as "the proscriptions". Caesar, as Dictator himself later in life, refused to proscribe his enemies, and paid the price for his mercy. Following Caesar's assassination, his heirs thought better of the idea, and issued proscriptions of their own.
Well said.
If you consider "Italians" the populations who lived in the Italian peninsula before the birth of Christ then you should study that period some more
@@Julius_Dayne no, those people are all long dead. But the land is the same and it's ironic that it happened in the same place twice.
@@jesseberg3271 they are clearly not the same, not only their populations mixed with the Arabs in the south but also with Germanic people in all of the country. But the biggest difference remains the culture. Of those traditions and customs which defined an ancient Roman basically remains the alphabet, the language and the names of the cities.
@@Julius_Dayne and I am telling you that none of that is even remotely relevant to the discussion being had here. Go find a conversation about genetics to flog your hobbyhorse in, because it has no business being here.
I think its unconscionable that so many were not held accountable for the horrors they inflicted, particularly in Asia.
Even here in Germany many got away scott free. Many were allowed to keep their companies despite working victims to death. Oetger, Leipniz, BMW, VW, Springer and so many more... They're still as big today, if not bigger.
BMW and VW are certainly bigger today
Are you speaking of the second Sino-Japanese War?
STOP! Just stop! Please. This lie keep floating around and it is despicable. There was a Tokyo War Crimes Trial, convictions and executions. After 31 months and more than 800 court sessions, the trial of 25 major Japanese leaders led to 7 death sentences, 16 condemned to life imprisonment, one to 20 years, and another to 7 years. The main Nuremberg Trial by comparison: 12 were sentenced to death (one in absentia) 10 of them hung in 1946, and the rest were given prison sentences ranging from 10 years to life behind bars. Hermann Göring committed suicide the night before his execution. The Germans kept records, the Japanese didn't or they were destroyed in firebombing. But the numbers are VERY CLOSE! And there were subsequent trials after Nuremberg, but also executions of Japanese war criminals in China, Philippines, etc. And a lot of Japanese war criminals committed suicide in the field. Now, if you want to talk about the Japanese Emperor specifically, fine. On his order, something only he could do, he got Japan to surrender for the first time in 1,000 years. And to subjugate themselves (and himself) to the Supreme Commander: McArthur. This, in exchange for NOT having a 20 year occupation fighting a guerrilla war in Japan where GI's would need to machine gun and burn with flamethrowers Japanese 12 year old girls charging at them with sharpened sticks. A fair trade, don't you think? So PLEASE! STOP THE LIE that the USA didn't hold Japanese war criminals accountable. It's not true.
You mean, like how america wasn't held accountable for the atrocities they committed? Pot meet kettle. 🤦♂️
Side note the Soviet Union had trials for 12 Japanese war criminals the Khabarovsk war crimes trials. They also let them off with light sentences ranging from 2 to 25 years which all were eventually released early 11 in 1956 and 1 in 1951 in exchange for the Unit 731 data.
Doesnt sound like Stalin
@GrievousReborn To be fair, the Soviet war crimes were at a similar level of brutality to the Japanese and at an industrial level similar to the system in Germany. Unfortunately, the Soviet Union was allowed to get away with their atrocities for a decade before the war and a half century after the war.
It shows you where you commit the crimes and against who matters
The Nazis brought atrocities too far west is what I've simply accepted
You can kill slavs in Siberia you can kill Chinese in Manchuria you can kill blacks in Africa you CANNOT kill white people west of Poland
This is hyperbole and a generalization but it's essentially what became evident
I mean, when I think of the Soviets (especially from this time period), I never really think of them as the type to be lenient on people.
@@GrievousReborn it comes down to where you commit the crimes 😭🤬 even though they all should have been charged regardless of where and against who the atrocities took place etc
The Nazis did it too far west and sometimes even other Anglo Saxon type folks who were just politically disliked
Short answer: The Allies wanted Japan as a bastion against Communism in the east, and a unified Europe in the west.
That rings true
But there have been trials in Tokyo.
Sort of, it was also harder to differentiate culpability in Japan because there was no easy political party to point to, the whole country was guilty. Many of the biggest war crimes were not planned and ordered at high levels, but rather the result of individual units and low ranking officers (condoned by the higher ups, but not really masterminded by them).
Even shorter answer: if the victims weren't White and european, the Allies didn't care so much for their suffering.
@@Zett76 Yup and we know some of them are killed and avenged those who perpetrated the warcrime.
Ethiopian war was far more complex than Italians coming in and committing war crimes. The Ethiopians took no prisoners and obeyed no conventions, even some of the Ethiopian internal Kingdoms joined the Italians to overthrow the negus.
thanks for the information. I felt that was somewhat importants to know. And did not know that.
Japan did some messed up shit
This is the understatement of the millennium.
So did Croatia, but nobody talks about that.
So did everyone else during the 1900- present
@@biddygamescame here to say that.
@@biddygames that’s why genocide / evil governmental acts are one of those things that can be ranked on a scale. Since most countries especially those in “1st world “ countries all did messed up 💩. So we just scale it and say who did more messed up 💩 and did it with impunity, well that’s the bad guy. I think that’s how those war crimes are thought of , not saying it’s right but I get it.
Shame that fear of demonitization prevents presentation of the truth. Lived in northern Japan in the early 70s. Open secret that the harbor breakwater was a Korean mass grave.
Japan had two underfunded, competing atomic bomb projects. Despite the postwar claims, I have no doubt the Japanese would have used nukes if they’d had them.
@@AcmeRacingOf course they would have. Us dropping them was still wrong and unnecessary though.
@@Zarastro54 It was quite necessary and saved lives, including Japanese ones, vs. the war dragging on at least 2 more years.
@@linda1lee2 Unfortunately, a lot of information indicates that that was not the case. The Japanese actually were open to negotiations at that point, as the blockade was making their position untenable. The pro-war faction was losing ground and the Soviet invasion of China badly rattled them. Their main sticking point, being their ability to keep the emperor, was something we eventually agreed to after the surrender anyway. Maintaining the blockade for a few more weeks or months would have forced their hand. The US just wanted to both test the bombs’ effects on real subjects AND make a statement to the Soviets.
@@Zarastro54this is literally nonsense. The bombing was absolutely necessary in ending the war. Not only were the Japanese leadership both in government and military heavily propagandized into a theocratic racial purity movement, not only were the common people so enamoured by these ideas that they valued the goals of this fascist state above their own lives (remember kamikaze pilots? The Germans were having desertion problems while the Japanese literally believed in fighting till death, for if they didn’t they faced execution at home), not only were they engaged in total war laterally exploiting every level of their society, not only were they themselves researching the bomb and had spies in nuclear states, not only had they committed crimes comparable to the nazis, not only did they still basically control Laos, Cambodia, Inner Mongolia, China, Vietnam, parts of the Philippines and parts of India, but they never even really made any attempts to negotiate. Sure, there was a fringe party in the government who made exploratory inquests into negotiations with the Soviet Union (most significantly), but that went nowhere, and had no real effort behind it at all. There was no way Japan would ever come to a negotiating table as this peace party was FRiNGE. The supreme war council, the actual people in Japan who would’ve could’ve called for peace at literally any time (and would’ve probably been givin Vietnam and parts of Korea and China based on how they faced consequences for the war crimes) were literally theocratic militarists who didn’t care how many people would have to die to achieve japans goals, and said as much.
One big bad villain is easier for people to understand, and more importantly, easier to process. The alternative is realizing there was a little bit of villain in everyone involved.
And when the international bankers demand sacrifices, our leaders jump to obey unfortunately.
And Italy and Japan hadn't offended the bankers.
@@scottcantdance804”offended the bankers” is such an amazingly offensive way to word committed horrific war crimes tbh
Not true when you think about 'the people' as communities. Communities where, for example, they saw collaborators continue as if nothing ever happened.
@@liamevans7661what’s offensive about the truth? The truth doesn’t need laws to protect it.
This Zoomerism needs to stop. Not all sides are the same. Hitler gassing children is not the same as Churchill being a drunk ass
As a Greek who has spoken with people who were alive during the Nazi occupation i understand thst the Italians were not considered heinous as the Germans by the people then, to the degree that when they fell out with the Germans at some point and they were persecuted Greek people were helping to save them often.
What you want to say I don't understand
@@Der_Mann_223 That the Italians when they co occupied Greece with the Nazis in WW2 were not as bad as them , no offence if you are German
In Croatia just on my island 400 civilians were killed and thrown in a endless pit. Fascists were ruthless like Nazis
@@Nancy20012 it has a simple explanation italy wanted to just expand its territory and wanted to grow the facist influence but the Nazis motives were different they were going for the race and it's made them to do ruthless activities.
@@Torcasolta remember Croatian own fascist regime killed over thousands of thousands people killed so horrible that's made Nazis worried.
Speaking of - if you happen to see pictures of Mussolini upside-down, that's an Italian meme, as the bodies of Mussolini, his lover Claretta Petacci (who wasn't his wife, by the way, rather his mistress, his actual wife, Rachele Guidi, survived the war despite being captured by partisans and being handed over to US forces, who released her in 1958, and managed to get by, dying in 1979 at the age of 89. One of their sons, Romano, was the father of politician Alessandra Mussolini) and several other fascist officials were hung upside down from the roof of a service station in Piazzale Loreto, in Milan.
There's to note - the racial laws in Italy were the proverbial straw break the camel's back for Enrico Fermi, the man who discovered induced nuclear fission and the father of the atomic age, as he had married a Jewish woman and had Jewish children (due to the matrilineal nature of Judaism), pushing him to both defy the Fascist regime which had constantly defunded his research and threatened his family first by showing up to collect his Nobel prize in a suit rather than a Fascist military uniform (note, the Fascist regime despised the bourgoisie officially), and moving to the United States, where he designed and led the construction of the world's first nuclear reactor, and was one of the directors of Project Manhattan, arguably contributing to it more than anyone else.
That’s quite the paradox lol…
it would have been funny if your editors had put in a normal picture of mussolini but rotated it 180 degrees
Haha, nice. Thank you for allowing me to end this video with a smile on my face
Anyone interested in the Italian post-war cultural landscape should seek out the Don Camillo stories by Giovanni Guareschi. They run from about 1950 to about 1979, and document (humorously) the rivalry between former fascists and communists, with subtle interference by the parish priest.
I watched a few of those movies on a trip to Europe. Even visited the museum! Very interesting and hilarious films. I kinda want to sit down and watch them again, now that you have reminded me about them!
"Former fascist"? Don Camillo represent the Democraza Cristiana, the ruling party after 1945 in Italy. He's NOT a former fascist in any way possible. In one of the movies, they both put their hands on a real former fascist, who return to the town after years, and almost killed him. What are you talking about?
@@AustinBecht You can find a lot of them on UA-cam, in Italian by the way. Maybe you can find them with English subtitles as well.
@@gabrielesolletico6542 I don’t seem to have made myself clear. I know Don Camillo does not represent former fascists; he is the priest trying so hard to serve God and the parish, but he sometimes gets caught between the political factions, and recent history inevitably affected people’s outlooks. I haven’t seen the movies but I love the books and the characters in them.
Selective justice.
Edit:
And Nazi Hunters only prosecute the German concentration camp personnels until the very last one, some of them from Eastern Europe, but zero mention of Italians.
Or selective injustice.
@@1toneboy
And Italian side did not have mad scientists who needed to hide in either U's.
Also zero mention of prosecution of Croatians for why they did to Serbs and others.
@@siewheilou399 You're right, there were no italian scientists worthy of the US protection. I mean let's be real, Italian scientists were never getting to the moon like the Germans did for the yanks!
The Germans must have ruffled the feathers of the one bird you should not make cross with you.
17:08 Let me add something. My grandfather was a non commissioned officer in the Blackshirts, who joined the Italian Social Republic after the armistice and kept fighting against the Allies. After the end of the war in Italy, he was arrested and interrogated by Americans.
That summary justice you talk about that killed 20k-30k Italian soldiers, wasn't carried out just by Italian partisans, but also by the Allies. They didn't care enough to set up proper trials, they would determine via interrogation if those Italians would live or be executed by firing squad right away. There were 2 things the Allies wanted to know in the interrogation, that would book you one spot in front of the firing squad:
1 - If you had committed a war crime against Americans or British (only them, they didn't care what you did in Greece, Yugoslavia etc.), doesn't matter if it was pre-armistice or post-armistice. One dead American soldier was more important than any amount of dead non Anglo-Saxons, according to the interrogators.
2 - If you had been an Italian Social Republic soldier (in case you didn't voluntarily surrendered to the Allies). The Allies demanded every Italian Social Republic soldier to surrender himself to them. Even if you hadn't commited any war crime, fighting for the Italian Social Republic and not surrendering would automatically make you a war criminal (war crime of perfidy: removing your military uniform and wearing civilian clothes, which at the end of the war was pretty normal, since any partisan would have shot you on sight if you still had your uniform on). The Allies' request was often practically unfeasible, as to surrender yourself to them, you should have somehow avoided German officers, Italian officers, Italian partisans, crossed frontlines and battlefields just to get to the Allies who then would have arbitrarily decided your fate. It was in part an excuses for the Allies to get rid of Italians who didn't like Anglo-Americans enough to collaborate with them, and create a pro-Allies new Italy.
The Americans didn't find any proof that my grandfather fought for the Italian Social Republic (many archives were destroyed at the end of the war, exactly to prevent recognition) and so he avoided summary execution.
You are correct in saying that many Italian officers, whether they fought for the Italian Social Republic or collaborated with the Allies didn't face justice. On the other hand, many lower rank officers and soldiers were summarily executed by the partisans or the Allies. Something you didn't mention is that certainly not all Italians who fought for the Italian Social Republic were Fascists, as there was mandatory conscription under martial law. During this retribution, neither partisans nor the Allies cared if you were a conscript with no choice or a volunteer, even because they were hard to distinguish. In Italy, the war criminal officers got away, the soldiers who - at times - had no choice, paid the price.
Excellent post. Any reading recommendations on the subject of war crimes ? Your mention of perfidy being a war crime was illuminating. Thanks.f
Spunto molto interessante. Credo fortemente che la storia dell'Italia agli sgoccioli della seconda e nell'immediato post sia raccontata, specialmente dal mondo anglosassone, in modo del tutto sommario, un po a casaccio e fortemente di parte... Purtroppo tante brave persone hanno pagato gli erroracci dei pochi in quegli anni...
@@toknode331 Sono d'accordo. La cosa che purtroppo fa male è che se uno straniero, di qualsiasi nazionalità, volesse documentarsi sulla storia Italiana della Seconda Guerra Mondiale, quasi sicuramente si documenterà con media anglosassoni, e non avrà mai una lettura discretamente precisa e completa dell'accaduto.
@@michaelmisczuk1188 Can't really help you on that. Due to my family's history, this war crime of perfidy has always been well known to me.
Moreover, my grandma on the other side of the family witnessed 2 young German soldiers, who wanted to surrender, being executed by Americans because they wore civilian clothes. A villager from my grandma's village convinced the 2 Germans to stay at his home and wear civilian clothes, then went to warn the Americans who were advancing and occupying nearby towns. After those 2 were executed, everybody in the village hated this man, he was seen as a vile murderer, but nobody could do anything about him because he was under American protection. Very soon after the war, he died from a sudden illness and nobody went to his funeral.
@@SurroundEdByFreaks La grossa problematica sta proprio nella necessità di raccontare la loro guerra come la grande liberazione/guerra patriottica (dall'altro lato) al fine di giustificare una serie di crimini commessi anche da loro (durante la guerra e, per la Russia, anche per tanti anni dopo). Secondo me una prova di tutto si trova nell'enorme ipocrisia durante il processo a Skorzeny, quasi ammazzato per aver utilizzato divise alleate e salvato poi da Yeo-Thomas che testimoniò appunto dicendo che anche gli alleati commisero tale crimine. Il termine di quella guerra è stato un vero putiferio e la gente, dopo anni di sofferenze, odio, morte e dolore di fatto non ci ha capito più un cavolo di niente. Detto ciò, ho terminato i miei studi in inghilterra e ricordo grandi liti con il professore di storia perchè venivano insegnanti falsi storici pazzeschi e sta cosa non mi andava giu. Tempo fa trovai su soundcloud un "podcast" intitotalo I giorni di liberazione di Sandro Lecca. Mi permetto di condividerlo con te. C'è anche una testimonianza del mio primo insegnante di pianoforte. Da quelle testimonianze si percepisce proprio la follia e il totale non senso di quei giorni che di fatto ha aiutato a creare tutto questo sapere/nonsapere che circola intorno a questo periodo. Aggiungo un ultima cosa, perdonami per l'eterno testo: non sono fascista anzi, sono molto contento di non vivere sotto il nazifascismo. Detto questo credo che la ricerca di una verità oggettiva - seppur quasi impossibile - sia la chiave per cercare di capire, imparare e non ripetere tutti gli errori che abbiamo ricominciato a commettere.
At the International Tribunal for the Far East which convened on 26 April 1946 was convened with 28 defendants. Of these 2 died of natural causes during the trial, 1 was found to be mentally unfit, 7 were found guilty and subsequently executed, 16 were found guilty and sentenced to life in prison but subsequently released on various date between 1952 and 1958.
There were further trials throughout territories formally occupied be Japan with some 984 executions and numerous prison sentences.
28? You think this highly complex network consisted of 28 people? There were 21 group trials alone for nazi leadership consisting of hundreds of nazi’s who faced charges in court.
Weighed against what Japan did that is shockingly small.
My grandmother lived under both Italian and German occupations of her island in Greece. She always maintained that the Germans were far more brutal and cruel than the Italians were. The Italian soldiers, mostly, didn’t even want to be there.
The Italians also generally said they related culturally to the Greeks. The testimonies of the Italian soldiers and Greeks in the Dodecanese seem to match this trend
in italy we say: greek and italians, one face, one race
Note: there WAS a Grand Coucil of Fascism, it hadn't been convocated in years, it held a "free" vote after a discussion, Mussolini lost the vote. There's a suspicion that Mussolini was ready to retire. Next day he got surreptitiously arrested on orders of the king - who had always been the head of state. Eventually, some of those who voted against Mussolini were later caught and executed. Yes, it was a darn mess.
The Australians ran the war trials in Japan. Interestingly their military carried out executions for the first time. They wanted to put Hirohito on trial, but the only intervention by Washington in the trials ensured that he didn’t face justice.
Because the italians didn't have death camps the way germany did and they needed the japanese against russia.
We actually did have death camps during ww2, they Just weren't as cruel as german ones
It's fair to say Mussolini DIDN'T get away with the crimes of his regime, although it was the good citizens of Milan who dealt with the punishment. The scars of the Jewish people's fate weighs heavily on Italy today, and yet you say that initially they were shielded from the blood-thirsty Nazis. However, Mussolini's death was not through due process, no matter what he had done he deserved that. The Italians also remember the atrocities committed by the Nazis including Mazzabotto (near Bologna) where hundreds were needlessly killed, I guess they successfully misdirected the Allies away from their own criminals in favour of the "easy target" that the Nazis had presented.
Ritorneremo
@@thepatriarchy819 Cos'è l'alternativa? Renzi e suoi amici? 🤣🤣🤣
@@timmellor2599 Matteo è communista 🤣
@@thepatriarchy819 appesi
Actually, the good citizens of Milan merely abused the corpses of Mussolini and his mistress, who had been summarily executed elsewhere.
probably the same reason that the US , USSR or GB were not.
War Crimes are only used against the losing side.
the italians were on the losing side ….
You do realize that the Italians were one of the Axis Powers right?
@@emptychair3932 not after 43.
Honestly irrelevant, italy was held accountable as an instigator of the war and reparations were demanded. The persecution of war criminals was and should have been imposed, but the post war protests in italy to the few cases carried out played a big part in the decision of letting them go.
@@Italianplayercvu not holding war criminals accountable is by definition not holding Italy accountable lmao. You cannot ignore the largest batch of crimes they committed and go, "Yeah they've been punished enough"
A link to Swept Under The Rug should be somewhere in the description.
Very much agreed, as I went to see if there was one early on.
Here you go :-) ua-cam.com/video/18Xe9HqW8Q4/v-deo.htmlsi=dYRoaM8R0xJVVNaz
There’s countless atrocities committed by the Germans against the Italian people after Mussolini fell. Ardeatine Cave (Rome). 335 citizens massacred, this just being one of the many atrocities.
Regardless of what you think Justice was hamstringed by the political reality of post war politics. It may have been cynical for the U.S & U.K to allow such things but rarely is international politics solely on the side of the righteous or just but with the cynical, smart & discreet mostly. Politics & War may have changed in their tactics & strategy but never in their nature.
This is a fascinating video, right up there with Mark Felton shit. Keep up the good work!
Here on YT I heard a Hitler quote like "Italy was often vanquished in war, but managed to come out a victor anyway." Italy was historically cut A LOT of slack.
Italy was on the winning Allied side in WW I but suffered many casualties and didn't feel properly compensated which helped many WW I vets turn to fascism and joining the Axis in WW II.
That's because being Italian is enough punishment lol
Just for future reference the "gli" sound in Italian is pronounced like "ll" in Spanish or a hard "y".
Disturbing, dark information, but informative. Thank you.
Well the italians ousted their dictator unlike the Nazis and the Japanese
Soviets commited a lot of atrocities, both when they were colaborating with the nazis during the first 2 years of war and also when they had the nazis as enemies.
The kinds of horror humans inflict on each other is mind-boggling
When I was in school in the early 50s most information was shared about the trials, then as I progressed through school stuff started to change, drastically, I went to school in mid America, unfortunately it became not important, I have forgotten about most of it, thanks for the reminder 🦑
As an Italian (despite the misleading name) I have often wondered this.
This script also written by an Italian. :-)
It's simple. Italians ceased being enemies from 1943 and became allies.
@@alexharrington6459 It's not that simple, the Togliatti amnesty made by the Italian Communist Party leader of the same name, let off many former fascists to reconcentrate on rebuild the country, rate that give in to the mood of civil war that was brewing between the most communist partisans and the US backed former fascist soldiers of the Regio Esercito the italian army.
@@alexharrington6459 except for the fact that Rome wasn't liberated until 1944 but ok
@@redtube8667Italy switched sides and declared war on Germany on October 13th, 1943.
“We have known the bitterness of defeat and the exultation of triumph, and from both we have learned there can be no turning back. We must go forward to preserve in peace what we won in war.” - Douglas MacArthur
As an Italian, I want to thank the authors of this video for speaking about the facts in the most impartial way possible. Unfortunately in Italy a serious debate on this matter is not possible, every time it is discussed the extremists on both sides only tell the part of the story that suits them.
Nothing to debate IMO, any government that got elected the people should assume responsibility! Mussolini got elected so Italians should assume for their crimes in the Balkans(Yugoslavia, Albania), Africa(Libya, Ethiopia) and other battlegrounds where they participated and inflicted loss of life. That's how it should work, but Italians got the slick way out!
@@Torcasolta There's a lot to discuss. First of all, in the last free elections of 1921, the fascist party obtained only 4.65% of the votes. In 1922 they took power through a kind of coup d'état (the "March on Rome" with the support of the king). The 1924 elections saw the absolute victory of the fascists but they were elections characterized by violence and intimidation against opponents, no longer free. After that there were no more real elections.
So who really elected the fascists? Few, very few.
Then speaking of crimes, even the winners committed large quantities of them, obviously no trials for them. This is good right?
@@DesertFox41 no I don't justify any crimes winner or loser a crime is a crime! Hiroshima/Nagasaki is genocide like it or not when you can erase 100000s of lives within seconds it can not be called anything else then that. But Italians haven't answered nor apologized to their crimes committed and some still have the ancient appetite to annex land that is not theirs in the politics of their country. On the island I am from the Fascists have thrown in a pit 400 civilians and no one has answered yet to it, for me it is easier to cope as I have never met those victims, but the elders that remember it is more difficult and they want closure.
@@Torcasolta the problem is simply that Italians with fascist sympathies will never apologize for things like that. While on the contrary the others do it, also because many, including some of my relatives, have suffered massacres at the hands of the fascist Nazis.
It's just that it doesn't make sense that only the party that suffered the crimes is apologizing, I don't know if you understand what I mean.
@@Torcasolta that was done by subjects of the fascist kingdom of italy. now we are citizen of the republic of italy. why we should apologize for something made by others. and we have killed and hanged by his feets the responsable of that mass murder, so we have made a pretty clear statement that we strongly disagree with that policy. that's the main difference between italy and the others nations in the axis
You should study up on what the Ethiopian resistance did. Nanny's killing entire officer families. Comfort girls killing young officers at dances when a certain song was played. Digging up roads at night that were built during the day. When they used gas attacks to kill livestock to starve the Ethiopians to death, we ate the Italians. Even HITLER went off at Mussolini about that.
Sources for reading?
@@Checkmate1138 theres a lot out there... But it is a massive rabbit hole.
You're kinda making me rethink if those huge Italian reprisals were right after all...
They also stole the obelisk at Axum, in one piece and then when ordered to return it in the 00's they said they would need to cut it in half. They were told by the EU to quite pissing about and shipped it back and reinstalled it in one piece.
@@sonicninja3434we do a little trolling
Because they measured with 2 different standards 🤷🏻♀️
The Germans were right
If the Germans were right, about race etc, they would have won. They were not the master race.
It was pizza. Everyone loves pizza and didn't want to risk losing acess to good pizza.
Long story shory: you can commit crimes while everyone else is comitting crimes and go unpunished, aslong as your crimes arnt the very worst.
Italian here. Thanks for covering these crimes. Unfortunately we never went through the denazification process here in Italy and a lot of fascists git away with what they have done scot-free. Some entered politics in the Italian Republic's parliament years after even. Because they never got properly prosecuted we haven't really dealt with our past and we still have a fascist presence in our politics.
These things need to be properly explained and you have done a good job.
I've also come across Italians that look upon the fascist past with nostalgia. And openly supportive of Mussolini
we have a fascist lead govern, not a presence
What is important to remember is that war crimes have always been a part of wars.
What is also important is to distinctly point out the level at which war crimes turn unto wholesale genocide and ethnic cleansing.
The former is a collateral aspect of war, the later is most certainly not.
Italy was an allied power from 1943-45 (and ended the war as such). Also, considering the crimes of the allied powers (such as Britain and especially the Soviet Union), it would be silly to think that Italy should have been subjected to a war crimes trial.
War crimes during a war? Don't they know that's a crime?
Italy and Japan negotiated a plea (more or less officialy), Germany declared herself innocent.
You should make an episode about John Rabe, if you haven't already. Man's a very interesting case.
he did, called john rabe, the good n*zi under his youtube channel, biographics, 5 years ago.
His story is largely told in this one ua-cam.com/video/18Xe9HqW8Q4/v-deo.htmlsi=dYRoaM8R0xJVVNaz But ya, would be worthy of his own dedicated video. -Daven
In other words, to survive a world war even if on the loosing side...
1. learn dirty secrets of your enemies, they might help
2. do your unethical research in a clean and propper methode, it might buy you a get out of jail free pass
3. be ready to cooperate with the enemy, a change from enemy to ally goes a long way
4. be part of the elite of your country, they get a free pass just for being born in the right family.
gotta lov humanity!!!
A fitting video right as the _World War Two TimeGhost channel_ published the last video on the Japanese signing the unconditional surrender.
To conquer a place you have to control it.
The Italians didn't even take over the territories other than the main towns in Ethiopia.
You don't have to control something to commit crimes
In short, the communist Soviet Union wanted to suck up to communist Yugoslavia so went after Italian war criminals who 'allegedly' committed crimes against Yugoslavians and the capitalist/non-communist allies wanted to suck up to potential business allies in Italy (and indeed Japan) and decided to err on the side of caution and let go of any such aspirations and decided not to prosecute anyone! I'm sure this has oversimplified it 🤔
Italy changed sides in 1943 and fought with the allies. This could be the reason that their pre 1943 atrocities were overlooked
You are missing the major detail that very few Italians effectively fought for the Allies in regular forces. The majority of Italian war crimes were committed in Yugoslavia, Greece and Ethiopia, and the Allies (Americans and British) cared little about those. But if Americans or British found evidence of Italian soldiers who committed war crimes against them, they'd usually have those soldiers executed, even pre 1943. Especially true if those were Italian Social Republic soldiers - who btw, greatly outnumbered the ones who actually fought for the Allies, which makes the "Italy changes sides" sentence quite biased.
Your statement is true for the high officer elite who committed war crimes but then collaborated with the Allies, though.
@@SurroundEdByFreaksthey didn’t outnumber the ones of the allies not even close. Unless pf course u only count those who engaged in combat but that would be unfair as the allies ordered the Italian army to not engage in any military operation against the RSI or Germany aside from crashing their resistance in captured territory. The Italian royal army had between 2.5 and 3M soldiers by the end of the war alongside 100-500k Partisans while the rsi had at best 100k and more realistically 75k soldiers. The RSI WAS FUCKING HATED. So much so that more fascists served under the king than under the RSI. God i mean even GENTILE the philosopher of fascism started criticising the fascist militias when they killed 5communist students.
@@Boretheory What? Where did you get those 2-3M soldiers from? Are you counting the Italian soldiers who were prisoners of war that after the armistice surrendered to the Germans and passed the rest of the war in prison camps?
Among all the extimates that I've read on Italian Social Republic vs Royal army soldiers, yours is very out of the range. Most datas I've seen report that at the end of the war the Italian Social Republic forces were at least 500k. How many of them were able to fight is another thing, because weapons, ammos and supplies were scarce.
The largest extimate I've read on partisans was around 300k, never heard anybody going beyond that.
In 1945, conscription in the South and the fact that Allies were freeing Italian prisoners of war from their prison camp meant that the co-belligerent army grew, but it has always been far, far less than the RSI, it never even reached 300k.
@sourroundedbyfreaks, Italian cobelligernt soldiers were about 10% of the Allied fighting force in Italy and 50% of the logistics. Not counting the Italians who refused to fight for the Germans and were imprisoned in camps and those who formed the partisan groups. Also not counting the tens of thousands who opposed German disarmament in Italy, Greece, Yugoslavia, France, Albania. About 90,000 Italian soldiers died in the Resistance, that was a huge effort.
@@InfoRome Sure, nobody is saying the co-belligerent army never existed, what I said is that it was a small army, smaller than the Italian Social Republic forces (also thanks to conscription, of course).
Also I'd like to raise two point: first, soon after the armistice, the vast majority of Italian forces peacefully surrendered to German disarmament - not counting the entire corp of the Blackshirts and few Royal Army units that immediately sided with the Germans. The units that tried to oppose disarmament were the minority by quite a margin.
Second, it's a mistake to consider all those Italians soldiers who ended up in German prison camps as part of the resistance. Remember that the order they were given (when the order actually reached them) was to resist disarmament by the Germans, and great majority of them didn't obey. While among those soldiers there were plenty of anti-Fascists, there were also plenty who had no more faith in the King, and were not willing to fight and lose their lives for the King, nor for the Allies, nor for Mussolini. Understandably, what they wanted most was the war to end. So, just like you can call them "Italians who refused to fight for the Germans", one can call them "Italians who refused to fight for King Vittorio Emanuele III".
Do one on the operation gladio, it explains a lot why the US didn't go after Italian fascists
There is the theory that to beat a monster you must become one. When both sides become monsters, the winner decides who is the monster
Thanks for this post , not pleasant but an important thing to know about recent History.
because we italians are extremely charming
Don't forget the Italians annexed part of Slovenia and Croatia after the end of WW1 (stopped in a battle near Ljublijana on 18 November 1918, 7 days after the end of the war). In my family's area of Slovenia, reading and speaking slovenian was banned and names were Italianised. Conscripts from these areas into the Italian army got sent to fight in Africa and Russia.
There wasn't an Italian War Crime Trial because it would lead to a lot of inconvenience for the new Italian government parties and their allies.
Mussolini didn't rise to power in a vacuum.
12:27 "nothing's black and white"
*photo literally in black and white*
literally unwatchable
I still don't get why the Italians and Japanese were treated better. I've seen enough about how Allies treated German and Austrian civilians. Many who survived their wrath were damaged beyond repair.
Thus, they obviously didn't give a F about human rights, public opinion or anything the like.
Frankly, I think we expected more of the Germans. We saw ourselves in them, and a large number of our politicians were impressed by Hitler and his policies until war broke out. Senate minutes regarding Germany during the thirties are truly sad and enlightening reading.
So, when the manure hit the propeller, the desire was to distance oneself as fast as possible, all the while denying how close we really were.
@@raquellofstedt9713 My grandfather was working on a farm as a child for food scraps and slept on hay in the barn. The landlord was an abusive prick who did even worse to girls working for him. I can't blame my grandfather for joining the Nzs when they invaded Austria. He had little to lose and soon had a fancy uniform designed by Hugo Boss, and for the first time in his life he had electricity, running, warm water, a bed and a small collection of shoes. He also got paid really well and suddenly girls were interested in him...
Who wouldn't fold under such appealing conditions?
The funniest thing about him: he was a literal Nz and served a sentence for lesser war crimes, but he was one of my most tolerant relatives! When the others heard that my first love was an Indian girl, they were furious! He: so what?
He was one of the few people who I believe when they said that they were never supporting the Nz ideology. He flat out told me that he joined the idiots because he wanted to get away from his old l environment and obviously because of the money...
@@raquellofstedt9713but it's not like Americans identified in their German ancestors, even though it's true it's the majority of their makeup, and that's because antigerman sentiments had been a thing since ww1. German farmers were often kidnapped and tarred and feathered decades before ww2, and some say prohibitionism was to repress German's drinking culture.
@@Bolognabeef german or Irish, I’ve heard both. I aggree with you that the grass root sentiment was far from rpo- German, but compared to the Italians or the Japanese? The predjudices were far less ro begin with, and of a different nature. My dad’s folks were German American in California’s central Valley. Hid their ancestry since wwi. I’m well aware of the bs that went down, but still, there were a lot of folks in the states that thought Hitler was right…until we were at war. Thank God my family always knew he was crap, but the racial stuff was what a lot of people wanted to hear.
Tokyo War Crimes trials. Many Japanese war criminals were imprisoned and executed.
Demonitized and age restricted, sounds like UA-cam still wants in swept under a rug!
What about Hungary? Romania? And Thailand too?
Hungary and Romania delt with their crimes internally.
You think that new communist regimes would give their opponents and war-criminals to the West?
Almost the same with Yugoslavia...
4:35 The massacre of Derber Libanos (monastery) happened because Grazzinani thought the priest hid the people who tried to assassinate him. When they told him they didn't know their whereabouts he ordered every priest to be killed.
Fascinating history, Italy was left a mess after WW2, never really fully recovered, scars & under American control to this day. Plenty of War Criminals got away with terrible crimes. Great film, keep it going. Cheers 🥂
what? what are you smoking lmfao
Lmao under american control
???? Last I checked Italy has its own government
We're the 8th largest economy, with the lowest amount of homicides and r*pes in the EU, the longest life expectancy and have lower unemployment than Sweden Finland and France, how have we not recovered 😂
@@ItalianplayercvuBasta vedere Gladio e quante basi dobbiamo mantenere
Luberti case is a good example of post ww2 chaos, after a series of seemingly violent incidents which he was involved in, numerous books written by him, .....he eventually ended up decades later dying in poverty.
Can you imagine falling behind an entire psychopath with no empathy or remorse? But I have been in prison and prison and military are similar in many ways. This creature was put through both, he snapped, he used his rizz to overtake most of Europe. It’s great to know that you can’t really sort out the psychopaths.
I recommend watching "The Lion of the Desert". A great film that focuses on an ignored part of 20th century history. This film has, to the best of my knowledge, never been shown on UK or US television.
I love how youtube/google penalizes content makers for telling the truth. Demonetizing has to stop. Either all of it is OK or none of it is.
A phrase by general mario robotti in a general order in slovenia during july/august 1942 who said "here we kill too little" I advise you to look the story of his letters for yourselves because writing a comment does not give justice to the victims of italian war crimes thanks for the video greetings from Italy
Italian police still may choose direct punishment instead of involving courts to this day, especially when what ever misconduct you were actively involved in was potentially endangering lives. If you are a strong man and made a potentially lethal traffic violation, no matter if anything actually happened, you have a high chance of cops giving you a beating. Probably because they know that if they brought it infront of a court nothing will happen for ages, if at all.
Thank you for this!
Very interesting.
I have always wondered why there were very few war crimes trials brought against Italians.
To add further to the confusing mess that this is, it should be noted that a number of Italian army units defected after the Armistice and joined the Yugoslavian resistance forces, instead of joining the Allies directly. Because we just needed to muddy the waters further.
The allies committed war crimes too, lets not pretend that the axis were the bad guys while the other side was pure and innocent. For what concerns Italy, the was little to gain from treating it the same way as Germany.
Italy managed to switch sides in time during both WWI and WWII, so that it was always on the winning side. And the highlight: not only Italy, but also Austria wanted reparations from the Germans after WWII. (Adenauer daraufhin: "Wenn die nicht ruhig sind, schick ich denen dem Adolf seine Knochen, den können sie gerne zurückhaben.")
You look really old so you may have some problems remembering: Italy joined the first world war in the allies and ended it in the allies, by defeating and occuping a good chunk of Austria including Innsbruck. We had to be content with keeping south Tyrol because the Americans were in the way
Can you do one for Vichy France too? Thank you!
Can you imagine putting chef Boyardee in front of a tribunal?
I always thought I about the allies.
Remember an interview with a Canadian bomber pilot... pilots are officers. He talked of his mission to bomb the postal centre I Hamburg because there was an estimated 40,000 civilians there.
Including my grandmothers brothers. Twin 4 year olds burned to death.
Knew it was one civilians, was an officer... and following orders isn't an excuse. But it was a Norma interview... but because it was a plane it wasn't questioned. Imagine if he opened up with a machine gun on 40,000 civilians? He's suddenly a monster. Pilots got a lot of space due to not seeing those they killed.
Not angry at him but the hypocrisy that our side was the good guys.
In contrast my brother unit refused orders to engage a building in Afghanistan because they saw no evidence of Taliban and theybelieved that made it unlawful. Officer withdrew his order and they risked their lives to investigate and found women and kids.
700 were tried in Germany where millions took part in war crimes.
Millions didnt take part in the crimes, main thing you stick to your ideology and are blind folded.
: “Why Wasn't There an Italian "Nuremberg” / Tokyo War Crimes" Trial After WWII?
An excellent question, but can only be explained by the Italians, seeing the writing on the wall decided to save their necks …?
As a Greek I have to say the Italians did some pretty crappy things as oxxupiers. It's just that in comparison to the German and Bulgarian occupiers they were almost good.
We were legit good in the Dodecanese also we sold our weapons to u when the armistice went into affect. The common Italian genuinely didn’t give a fuck
@@Boretheory true. In Athens it was bad, mainly due to the lack of food but as I said all things considered compared to the atrocities of the Germans and the Bulgarians you were harmless.
One thing was missed out, after WW1 Italy got as a war prize got the region of Istria, inhabitated not just by Italians but also ny Croats and Slovenians. Already in 1924 the fascist regime started closing down non italian schools, then starting changing names to their italian version and then in the end even completekly banned the croatian and slovenian language, even in day to day conversations.
The foibe kllings started already in September 1943 after the Armistice, in May 1945 was the second part.
Thanks for spreading this knowledge.
0:08 this man (Rudolf Hess) secretly flew a solo mission into the UK in the middle of the night to meet with some British contacts he had for peace discussions.
Unfortunately the British authorities were not interested in peace and put him in prison. Once he realized he was now liable to be tortured for German war secrets he tried to kill himself by jumping out a window.
He was not successful, but sustained many injuries. He pretended to be insane, and ultimately did not divulge German secrets, but did spend the rest of his life in prison. He was in prison from 1941-1987. This is a violation of international law and a war crime considering he was there for peace discussions, But you never hear about it.
Historian David Irving stated he thought Rudolf Hess should have been awarded the peace prize for his efforts, and millions of lives could have been saved if Britain had only listened….. instead the British empire was destroyed for Churchills vanity.
Was he wrong?
As Michael Jackson states, the history books are lies, and the Press is a criminal organization.
There could and should have been no peace with that murderous regime. If that's a war crime then the definition of that law is morally wrong.
I've heard about it many times
Oh, yes, award the peace price to the nazi who thought the brits would want peace in the name of their "common Aryan heritage" that would have looked *even better* than quietly ignoring war crimes. Also he didn't go there under orders from the nazi government last I checked and thus he was no official ambassador just a random idiot who was so hopped up on his own bullshit he thought he could end the war with the brits so they could have one less nuisance when they were killing everyone else.
You have to divide 2 different period in which the fascist were in power, the first before July 1943 and the second after September 1943.
For the first period you cannot accuse the Italian army generals, and so the government of massacre or genocide. Quite the contrary indeed. The Jews in the Italian occupation zone were protected and not handed over to the Germans. The Italian occupation zones of France and Greece became temporary a safe heaven were the Jews from the German occupation zones could go in order to avoid the deportation.
About the second d part of the fascist government, the so called Italian social republic, where Mussolini became the leader of a puppet government, instead was full of crimes committed in coordination with the Germans.
But basically all the leaders and important figures of this period, that are not necessarily all from the previous, were killed at the end of WWII by the partisans under the order of the liberation comitee. So there was none left to put on trial. The very few that survived the purge done by the partisans were able to escape to Spain and them South America, so anyway out of reach of the allies. So there was really none left.
God finally someone is talking about this.
Though most names were pronounced hilariously wrong, Italian like German has actual spelling rules so you can just find a pronunciation guide instead of mixing and matching English and Spanish. For example the way you pronounced it "Gullo" would have to be written "Guglio" according to Italian spelling (the double consonant here only means extra enphasis on that sillable, we use "gl" for the sound the Spanish write with the "ll" so yeah: the pronunciation of "Badoglio" was also wrong).
Expedience always trumps humanity.
I’m from Albenga and almost everyone forgot his story
There were the War Crimes Tribunal Trials in Tokyo... Gen Homma springs to mind, also Gen Iwane Matsui of Rape of Nanking infamy, Gen Tomoyuki Yamashita of Bataan Death March infamy (along with six others at the same time), Kenji Doihara, the handler of Pu Yi and Manchukuo, Kawashima Yoshiko, also involved with Pu Yi and Manchukuo, General Tojo wartime prime minister of Japan, to name a few, there were others. All were executed either in China or hanged at Sugamo Prison, Tokyo.
Fun fact:
During WW2 many Serbian fled to Italian occupation zone, as it was deemed as more humane.
In the north, where Germans were, Croatians even had a competition of Serb-slaughter using small knifes.
The same with France. The Vichy regime was by far worse than Italian controlled territory.
Same happened for Croatians in Serbia, little knives in Vojvodina up north while south none were there apart from the Bosniaks and they got their little knife too ... Those Chetniks I tell you 😮
@@Torcasolta There are almost no Croats in Central Serbia.
During WW2, Croatia occupied the whole os Sirmia, even part of Belgrade. And they hade there extermination camp. Bačka was occupied6 by Hungary, and in Novi Sad, alive Serbs were thrown under ice of frozen Danube.
@@Mladjasmilic funny how Croatians and Germans(Folks Deutsche) substantially diminished in Vojvodina after WW2 I slightly forgotten detail as you can always check demographics charts on wikipedia. The Ustashas got created by Serbian imperialist policies in Yugoslavia and all other quislings. Oppressing(taking land, killing MPs in parliament, downgrading religions etc...)all non Serbs and making them 2nd class citizens from 1918-1941 did it for all non Serb nations in Yugoslavia and these facts that many Serbs keep forgetting. Yugoslavia wasn't suppose to be a prize to Serbia, but a Southern Slavic union. Reason why Ustashas crimes are not associated to Croatian people is because they aren't an elected government(Banovina Hrvatska was the elected government and they refused any cooperation with occupiers), they were installed by Italian Fascists and as soon as they were in power the Partisan rebellion has started especially in Dalmatia which was sold out to Italy by the same quisling group. The Ustashas victim chart is bogus as both my grandfathers were in Jasenovac during it's liberation as officers in Tito's army and it got substantially bigger after the death march in late 45!
The knives were called 'Serb cutters' there are pictures of those knives on the internet.
The Japanese government got off SO easy after WWII. Compared to Germany and Italy they got off Scott free. Makes me sick to my stomach knowing no one responsible for the atrocities in Nanking and Unti 731 faced any meaningful consequences
For Italy coz of Pizza & Pasta
For Japan coz of anime
Speaking pf accountability for war crimes or crimes against humanity, will there ever be a time for colonialists to pay for those?
I do recommend for anyone whod be interested;
Mark Felton here on the Tube. Covers the axis and allies well. Incredibly well put together.
In a nutshell, it was an exact opposite to the coordinated trial of German Nazis. Where one was basically shoehorned into a western style judiciary system, the other was a complete free-for-all. That's why we don't hear about it, because it was chaos manifest.
Weird that he was worried about his video being demonetised when he's got about 100 others that aren't
Sounds like the similar compleities in Austria.
Great channel
The one that inspired all of the Axis powers/ contributors not surprisingly got the biggest slap on the wrist.
They weren't on trial because their food is so damn good