Greg Koukl: Am I Not Elect?
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- Опубліковано 7 вер 2024
- Greg Koukl of Stand to Reason discusses the doctrine of divine election.
#StandtoReason #Apologetics #Christianity
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Preach!
To God be the glory.
Also, saving faith does not access us to grace, but it is an extension of grace. Salvation is by grace alone. There are the elect, and there are the rest. God has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and will blind and harden the rest. If this offends you, then the gospel offends you.
Good point..Change comes gradually.
Thanks, Mr. Koukl
This was a very educational video.
Mr. Koukl,
I just want to thank you for helping me with this doctrine. I have been tormented with the Calvinist view on predestination for sometime now. Both sides of the argument are very convincing however. The very question you tackled about knowing if we are elect or not has given me a better understanding. I remember you spoke once here in Ottawa, I attend the Metropolitan Bible Church. Is it fair to say that even after following Christ that we struggle with immediate change?
Randal
It's 8 years old comments, I think you should have seen the changes you mentioned.
@@jonathanosnar7141 Can the calvinist ever even know whether they're elect or not.
@@leonardu6094 Yes, we can. This is something that I struggled a lot back then, and I got my answer in John 6:44. The train of logic is like this:
1. God only draw people He elected
2. Only those drawn people can come to Christ
3. I came to Christ
4. Therefore I'm elected
Now, this isn't something you can judge other people. They can say what they like and we never know their heart. That's why we still can't tell if another person is elected or not. But for ourselves, we ask ourselves, and be honest about it, did I come to Christ? Did I really want Christ? Did I have ulterior motives, like I want wealth, well-being? What makes me want to go to heaven? Because heaven is a place I can indulge myself? Or was it because I want to be with Christ?
@@jonathanosnar7141 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."
John 6:44
Your train of logic is fallacious
I've heard this argument before. All you can logically get from this verse is that whoever comes to the father was drawn by him. It doesn't say God only draws "the elect". He could draw everyone but only some heed his call and come. All we know is that nobody can come to Christ without being drawn by God. Why do Calvinists read into the text that which is simply not there?
@@leonardu6094 Oh, so that's your direction. I thought you're genuinely asking, turn out want a debate.
My answer comes from those who have affirmed the Limited Atonement. I never meant to get the sense of "only draw the elect" from that verse alone. As you pointed out, that verse simply mean you must get drawn by the father to come to Christ. Although I would argue that this people got drawn here is indeed elected, because Jesus say in the same sentence, He will raise them in the last day. Unless you want to say that non-elect will be raised too?
Hi Greg, there is a youtuber who used to go by the name cosmic skeptic, but since has changed it to his actual name, Alex O' Connor. He claims he has spent the last 2 years sincerely searching for christ, and even went to Oxford to study theology. He recently gave a short speech on why he does not believe in God. Alex states that he prayed, went to church, read the Bible, for two years and has not seen or heard gods voice. I am speaking metaphorically of course, but you know what I am getting at. He claims that he has observed no meaningful difference I'm his life, internally. He speaks about desiring to experience something spiritual, but he received only silence. Alex quotes, "The nonresistant nonbeliever does not exist." Yet Alex feels he is nonresistant and remains a nonbeliever, to his own surprise. Apparently this problem is reffered to as "divine hiddeness". And the title of his video is "why is God hidden from me?"
I am a believer, my question is, if Alex sincerely was searching for a personal relationship with Jesus and after two years of trying, experiences no difference in his life, why would that be?
That's a great question! We invite you to call in to our weekly broadcast to ask Greg your question. He'd love to hear from you. Or you can submit an #STRask or Open Mic question. Visit www.str.org/broadcast for details.
In the meantime, you may find Greg's articles and talks about how God speaks to us useful. Here's one place to start:
www.str.org/w/does-god-whisper-part-1
www.str.org/w/does-god-whisper-part-2
www.str.org/w/does-god-whisper-part-3
@aldotkd1 But everyone can make the choice to repent. No one who doesn't repent can use this cop out of "God didn't elect me".
You said "true" - so then people can make the choice to repent. We can end this whole thing at this. No one truly knows what the Holy Spirit does in each person. But Repentance does happen, the miracle of a change life happens, just like the Bible says; so its highly likely that God is just and loving, and a person who doesn't spend eternity with Him has rebelled against His love.
As always, the battle for what is true salvation is fought in the guise of battle of spiritual truth when truth is it is always a battle of mind. so ultimately god only chooses those who have got the puzzle right. if there's a god i think he'd be satisfied as long as your heart is in the right place.
God reveals the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. See 2Cor.4:6
God revealed Christ in Paul.See Gal.1:16
God revealed Christ to Peter.Matt.16:17.
God revealed, and these men believed the revelation.
See also Acts 15:8-9,
1Thess.1:4-5 and Numbers 21:4-9.
This just seems to fail at various levels. I respect Mr. Koukl greatly. I enjoy listening to his various ways of dealing with scripture. I do agree with the idea that people that believe get in and those that do not, didn't get "left out." The problem it seems to me is God picked every individual that "chooses" to believe before the world was formed. This implies that He didn't choose others. Those others are being created by God with no hope. God doesn't want them. In that sense
God is the ultimate cause of the lost, but their immediate cause is their parents. He created a mechanism for reproduction and delegated the task. So, I don’t think it’s fair to blame God for creating the lost.
We don’t know God’s mind. If they don’t know that God did not choose them, how can they not hope?
I think there are fewer problems with the video than the comment claims.
@razputin34 they do not have a chance to believe, so they will not get into Heaven. God creates people to die and go to hell. He purposes this. He chooses a group of people that WILL love Him. He does make them love Him. They must come to Him because He chose them to do just that. How does the Calvinist know He is saved? Since you would argue that only God can change your heart and we know their are false converts, how can you know that God really chose you?
This man is presenting the heretical Arminian doctrine of salvation which says it is by man's will and choice that he will become saved. The Scriptures are clear that it is not by the will of man (John 1:12,13) and also that all of the elect will always choose Christ and come to Him (John 6:37). Furthermore, God has given His saving grace in Christ to all of the elect before the world was made (2. Timothy 1:9,10, Ephesians 1).
@shotsxxx You said, "God said no liar shall enter the kingdom of heaven." That verse does not say "no liar will enter the kingdom of heaven," you liar.
And, once again, I'll simply point out that god has no problem with liars in heaven, per the bible passage I quoted, which you ignored because you were stupid enough to think I wouldn't notice.
@shotsxxx wrote: "God said no liar shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven."
There is nothing in the bible stating liars won't get into heaven, you liar.
I'll tell ya what is in the bible, though...
The passage I quoted. That passage has god telling one of the "hosts of heaven" to go forth and lie to Ahab.
So much for your claim that "liars won't enter the kingdom of heaven," eh? What was that you were saying about me "not knowing the bible"?
You cute little ignoramus you.
I don't understand why believers don't see that this stuff is clearly man made....made up. Is it because you were raised with it, so if you can get a child to believe, when they become adults they will not think rationally about it?
@shotsxxx wrote: "I will have your account suspended-"
Uh, no you won't.
lulz...
shitsxxx wrote: "The only thing that ever comes from your mouth is foolish ignorance-"
This from the moron who claims light bonds matter together, and who is profoundly ignorant of what is in the bible he claims to know so much about.
lulz...
Furthermore, a careful reading of the abundance of Scriptures on this matter, Christ died only for His elect people--not for everyone. The kingpin of the false Christ of the last days, and the false conversions it creates, is the universal death of Christ for all men who ever lived.
Dear people who are using the brain they claim is an accident of evolution, why are you bothering to argue? Every thought you have, according to your belief, is merely the random firing of an accidental organ. You can’t trust a thing you think, feel, or believe. Your remarks on this subject don’t matter as you try, in futility, to make sense of your nonsense. If there is no purpose to this other than passing your genetic material (and claiming that as a purpose is silly) why do you care about any of this? Go play while you have the time.
What a winsome ambassador
@shotsxxx wrote: "Atoms can form from the energy of light-"
This is an entirely different claim, and it's meaningless drivel, just like the original.
shitsxxx wrote: "Evolution science acknowledges this fact. "
For the fourth time, please provide links to the research papers and peer reviews in which this "fact" is established and accepted by scientists.
What's that? There aren't any?
Oh my. Aren't you "showing yourself to be ignorant and uneducated."
lulz...
Concerning God's respect for the choices people make and how God always gives people what they choose regarding salvation or condemnation it has to be observed that there is a choice that none of us are given whether elect or not. None of us were given the choice of whether to be physically born into this world or not. So the non-elect is born into this world by no choice of their own and they are born with no ability to want salvation due to "total inability" and they will want to and commit every sin that God foreordained that they would commit seeing how God foreordained absolutely everything that would ever come to pass including not only their sins but their want to's as well and the certain punishment to follow. Next they naturally die lost being unable to desire salvation and then they are made to spend eternity in Hell in order that they might be fairly and squarely punished for the many yet still finite number of sins that they could not avoid committing and could not avoid wanting to commit during their very brief mere 70 years or so of living on earth. Now to top it off God always knew from eternity past the identity of each and every one of the non-elect and everything about their lives on earth including the sins that they couldn't avoid committing and couldn't even want to avoid committing and also their eternal suffering in hell and yet He does nothing to prevent them from being born into this world in the first place. Yeah they get what they choose but they still get a really raw deal. Of course seeing how the God of Calvinism is also a "closed theism" God He cannot choose to prevent them from being born for if He did prevent them from being born then He would end up with a future that turns out differently than the way He always knew that it would turn out. Now if He truly has freedom to somehow make changes to a future that is apparently completely written in stone seeing He foreknows it all as absolutely certain whether He wants to know it all or not then why does He not do so and prevent those who cannot repent and cannot want to repent from being born in the first place??? How oh how do we see either justice or fairness in this??? Now Greg may or may not embrace every belief that I have addressed in my post but each of these beliefs is found among various groups of Christians. It really is possible to perfect our theology in a way that really does make God look quite awful.
@shotsxxx wrote: "They also say it is OK to lie-"
You lie all the time, so you've obviously no problem with it either.
Then there's: "And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said... I will go forth and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And [the Lord] said, Thou shalt persuade him and prevail also; go forth and do so."
Your god said it's okay to lie providing it's done to win converts, son.
Not much of a bible reader, are ya.
lulz...