What the Experts Say about Solderless Cables
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- We found ourselves in the middle of NAMM with one question: What do the experts think about solder less cables? Wandering through the swarms of gorillas, alligators, shredders, and Violin Man, we came across John Suhr, Björn Juhl, and Dave Friedman! They were kind enough to give us the rundown on solder less cables!
If you have any questions about soldered vs solderless cables, let us know in the comments below!
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Suhr: www.suhr.com
BJF One Control: www.one-control...
Friedman: friedmanamplif...
#solderlesscables #guitarcables #TheRigDoctor
Hey all! We met up with some of the most renowned rig experts at NAMM to talk about solderless cables! Let us know if you have any questions about solderless vs. soldered cables!
SUBSCRIBE: ua-cam.com/users/vertexeffectsinc
No that’s your guitar, your acting as the ground when you touch it. Hosa is not the issue, some plugs won’t have a ground lug and you need to solder to the housing. You can shield and ground your guitar in the pickup and control cavity and this won’t happen.
I need help figuring out how to fix a noisy pedal. One of my drive pedals causes considerable noise/hum when I switch it on. The hum goes away if I touch the drive’s on/off switch. What could be causing that. I’m using an ojai power supply but also lava solderless patch cables.
What happens if you turn off your guitar volume or have your hands muting the guitar strings?
Vertex Effects I went soldered after a few of your comments.
Best decisions I’ve made
Even my sound enhanced to the point that I can’t stop playing !
Josue Flores what cables were you using before?
For what its worth, I've used the exact same solderless cables on my pedalboard through HEAVY gigging for 7 years now and they still all 100% work fantastic.
Dan from TPS uses solderless, and that's enough for me
Believe it or not, guys like Suhr and Friedman have been doing this for 30+ years, before UA-cam even. Can you believe it? I suggest watching this to learn more on why a soldered connection is important: ua-cam.com/video/rn7f5zX9OFA/v-deo.html
Who or what is TPS?
Sean Tighe Oh, you’re in for a treat... That Pedal Show
And Daniel Steinhardt definitely does build rigs for pros. ua-cam.com/video/5fifLofyLIc/v-deo.html I have no theological perspective on this because I use soldered Mogami cable connections with SP400 connectors, Evidence SIS connections and Evidence monorail with soldered connections on my board at different places, in and out of my RJM Mastermind PBC. I've never had a failed connection from any of these options. While scientifically and technically, it may be true that soldered connections are better, it's not like pros don't use solderless connections too. I've always viewed this entire debate/argument as a bunch of sound and fury, signifying very little...trending towards nothing (marketing).
I have three pedalboards made with solderless, they all work great at home and rehearsals because it’s a hobby . I wouldn’t trust solderless if I were a heavy duty musician
This is pretty much the right approach. But really, learning how to solder is not hard and it's a great skill to have, I've been able to fix unrelated things because I learned how to solder from making cables.
While Some arguments are valid, I think it depends on the brand and quality. I've been using evidence audio SIS solderless on my board for 4 years with no issues at all. Many gigs, many miles of throwing the board around. I've even had the pedaltrain feet break off, from abuse, but not a single issue with cables. Before them I used daddario solderless kit, that was a different story. Endless connection failures and buzzes with those. You get what you pay for.
Charles Von kanel I think the more scientific arguments are made in my previous video which is linked in this video. If you’re looking at both types of connections, both being made in accordance with the manufacturer specifications, there’s no comparison in terms of the quality of the connection between the gas tight connection, i.e. solder connection, versus a solderless one. I will admit that I have the solderless varieties, SIS is the best out there, but still not gas tight, and over time and with use will fail before a soldered connection. It’s definitely worth the watch if you’re really interested in the science behind it: Why Soldered Cables Trump Solderless ua-cam.com/video/rn7f5zX9OFA/v-deo.html
I think the scientific part of this argument is pretty obvious: The solder connection is the best because is more solid and less prone to fail overtime. For me it's more a question of convenience: if I'd know how to solder (properly and fast) I obviously go that route. But since I don't know how to do that and I want the convenience of choosing the length of my patch cables, I choose solderless.
Soldreing is easy, it takes 5 minut video on youube just like you would watch how to make solderless cables properly! Iron costs 10$, get a decent 40/60 solder and flux and it sticks like glue. You're in the business for 15-20$ and you will do lifetime of personal pedalboards with it. Patch cable costs around 1$ a metre and jacks 1-4$ so that's already a saving and investment all in one.
@maksmail for that price, I could literally just buy all the solderless I'd need though
When John Suhr speaks, people listen. :)
he s the man
I did. But this is just bad information
This didn’t go the way I wanted it to lol.
Um this is bad info. It doesn’t hold up under scrutiny.
The only reason people argue in favor of solderless is because they're lazy and don't want to take the time to do them right. That's the ONLY reason. There's absolutely NO positive to solderless other than someone arguing they take less time and are "easier" but good things don't always come "easy". But at the end, your fingers are shredded to pieces because you just screwed 50 plugs together. How much time did you really save and how much piece of mind did you gain? Stop being babies and learn how to use a soldering iron, it's not hard.
I also think there is a lot of information on UA-cam and other places creating equivalency when they're not. Backed up with anecdote and not facts.
If you ask those people, that have the same opinion as you have, you get the right answer, right? This is a highly manipulative way of clearing things. This is the chinese way of freedom of opinion.......
Bad comparison I'd say. Anyone with an understanding of physics would tell you the same thing regarding connection quality - it's not really a debatable thing when you're talking about instrument cables and using a gas tight connections versus not. Solderless cables were invented to allow everyday players with no preexisting skills to customize their own cables. They weren't intended for professional rigs, never were. Have you ever heard of a solderless cable with a lifetime warranty?
Ever since you guys put out that tutorial on how to make your own soldered cables, I haven't looked back since! I only use 4 pedals at the most in any of my boards and it was not only reliable, but it sounded ten times better with all of them bypassed and with no buffer. Make Soldering Great Again!
🥳🥳🥳 #makesolderinggreatagain
I never had an issue with solderless cables until I had a fly tour and TSA tore it apart.... after 3 times of this happening, 3 of my cables died and 2 were grounding into my hot (absolutely WILD buzzing sound) I went mad replacing them all after trying to find a music store on tour a half hour before sound check...
Soldereless is just adding more points of potential failure to your rig, sure maybe if you stay in your room and are only ever gentle with your board, solderless cables might be convenient and fine, but for a working, touring musician with a not-so-pillow-delicate-gentle hand, you don’t need to add anything that could potentially fail on you! Solid connections for a solid work flow 👌🏼
This is utter nonsense; poorly soldered cables would be just as unreliable, as would using cheaply manufactured jacks made to the wrong tolerances, or making cables with kinks in them, or cables that are only just long enough. These are all user-errors, not the technology itself.
99% of these "arguments" for using soldered are by people that have thought "I love soldered, so I need to be close-minded and look for an argument to support the same".
Derek Chapman ok bud, you go through being a paid musician and having your gear thrown around by TSA and other people who could care less, and other inspectors tearing pedals off your board because they think it’s some sort of harmful device and then tell me if you would have rather had spent a few minutes properly soldering some solid connections together... 😂
...and btw, I have 2 stay-in-the-studio rigs that are all wired with solder-less connections that have stayed that way for 5 years with no issues... this wasn’t a close-minded comment, this was an analysis from someone who actually relies on his gear to earn a living, and some experiences I had.
Take the sodium levels down, you’re gonna give yourself a heart attack staying salty like that 🥴
@@AleksanderLydkunst So, you're assuming I use solderless cables, which I don't. Poorly made cables will be always be poorly made cables, cables that have been made well will last, regardless of the type.
In 35 years of gigging, I've never had a board inspected, let alone pulled apart, and the only person that every plugs/unplugs on my board is me; I'm not a heavy-handed cretin, so no cables have ever failed.
People here have a vested interest in the technology THEY use and that's blatantly obvious in their derision of something they don't like, know, want, need etc.
Derek Chapman that’s funny m8, looks like you read something I didn’t write.. cuz nowhere did I assume you used solderless connections 😂🤦🏻♂️ you were sure to assume 99% of pro-soldered commenters we’re close minded tho 👌🏼
Just solder your goddamn cables, people, it’s not that hard.
Soldering is KING!
Wow the last NAMM before the pandemic
Yes!
Unfortunately agree. Splashed out on the Diago PatchFactory cables a while ago but having lots of problems with them now. Will be going back to soldered.
Soldered is the way!
I gig with solderless and I’ve never had a problem. I have weekly rehearsals and gig plus whatever comes up in between…no problem at all. My solder cables have failed before my solderless.
John Suhr: "It's hard to argue with soldering. Why not solder it?" This right here is the strongest argument... In spite of my love of That Pedal Show, Evidence Audio is expensive AF, and soldered is simpler. (I still don't make them myself yet-gotta learn to use a soldering iron-but even getting someone else to make them for me they're still cheaper!) Hope our paths cross next year, Mason!
"...In spite of my love of That Pedal Show, Evidence Audio is expensive AF, and soldered is simpler." - how, you can make a solderless cable in 30 seconds. The internet is awash with biased nonsense like this, thankfully I stumbled across this by accident so I can at least make sure it doesn't happen again.
@@derekchapman5167 'Simple' and 'easy to make quickly' are not the same thing... You'll notice that I don't say "solderless is complicated." I understand the appeal of why the Evidence cables are very popular. "Simple" here is my response to the thing John Suhr said: "why not solder?" It makes sense, and if you have decent soldering skills then soldered cables are, in fact, simple to make (and cheaper). You could argue all day about whether ease of making the cables quickly or the long-term reliability of the connection is more important, and that probably varies depending on who's making the cables... but that wasn't the point of my comment.
So, I'm not really sure what bias you're talking about, or what of the above is nonsense... That said, feel free to stumble more carefully, and consider how childish you look "accidentally" committing to troll my comments. Clearly you prefer to do something quickly without imagining long-term consequences... Have a nice day.
@@RobFlaxMusic If someone doesn't agree with you, they're automatically a troll; that's the very definition of biased and bigotted.
You've clearly watched Dan's videos on this subject, and therefore know he has 100s of boards across the world, being used by house-hold names, but yet you choose to ingore this in support of your own choice of using soldered cables. Again, bigotted, and surely the actions of a troll to ignore facts to better serve their own bias'.
You needn't bother with a reply, or a feeble attempt to belittle, as to be frank, you're capable of neither.
@@derekchapman5167 No, I make the distinction between "I disagree with you and "biased nonsense like this." You opened with inflammatory language that wasn't civil, and didn't contribute to the discussion. In short, trolling. (By the way, "bigoted" does not mean what you think it means... Get a dictionary!)
Nowhere in here have I stated what kind of cables I use, btw! So far all I've stated is:
-Evidence SIS is pretty good stuff (but expensive),
-If you have soldering skills then soldered cables are a good option (and cheap).
Best of luck to you in your stumbling.
My pedalboard must be the exception then. It has 17 solderless cables and they all still work just fine after two years. The average guitarist assembling their own pedalboard probably doesn’t know how to use a soldering iron. They are probably going to have more problems with dry joints than if they just follow the instructions on a solderless cable.
Especially something high quality like the Evidence Audio SIS plugs.
@@LotharOfTheHillPeople Well now my paddleboard is three years old. Still fine. And I don’t even use the expensive solderless cables.
I currently use Pedalpatch (solderless), have it on a pedal board ranging of about 7 pedals, for very loud and very heavy Psychedelic Doom, Stoner, Ambient Drone etc., done a lot of gigs, rehearsals, messing about at home involving changing pedals out & all. They're also not on a fancy metal board, but a wooden bathroom stand thingy-ma-jig you put on the floor, cut down to fit the pedals and power supply, added some rubber feet and of course, painted black, anti-slip tape, velcro etc., there's my base. Has had a lot of rough rides. Still goes strong.
My argument is. Well, put them together properly.
I agree with those experts.
AMPSHOWS thanks for watching Loni!!!
I had both solderless and soldered, after watching your video I tested all my cables and found resistance in all the solderless cables witch I have been using for years, Took em all out and added all soldered, all the hissing and noise feedback went away.
Nice work!
Cool bunch of guys with endless money for gear... talking. Not showing anything, weighing cost and affect.
Yes. But what's that track in the background tho...?
Gary Clark II Tim Marco is responsible for that, check him out and some of our other videos demonstrating some pedals
I get that if you read building a board for a pro, you need to guarantee that it'll work forever. I've got a George L kit though, and yeah, every now and then if I'm in a hurry, I'll make a bad one, but they work for me aside from that. But yeah, if I was making a board for someone going on tour, I probably would solder them.
Agree! Used george l for years with satisfaction. But after years they failed me. Buy soldered cables!
My friends and I call you Sodder-man. (And I use Evidence SIS)
Helpful...just answered my question
I'm absolutely not a fan of solderless cables. The Tightrope Kit by Lava Cable is ok, but really, in my opinion, it's best to solder.
I think you’re in the video Shawn when we pan by Revv
@@VertexEffectsInc Haha. Yes, I saw that.
I got a set and it was in fact a board if issues!! Never again
Friends don't friends go solderless!
@@VertexEffectsInc Lol- truer words have never been spoken!
My only defense of the solderless cables is the size of the connectors. On today's cramped boards they really come in handy. And if you have a pedal with multiple jacks close to each other like a Boss LS2 or DD whatever you will not be able to use soldered right angle cables. Just the reality of things.
Hmm.......I would prefer using soldered cables, however if I'm making a pedalboard on my own, I have to use solderless, as I am terrible at soldering. I wonder if just using premade patch cables would be a good compromise?
Some of the pre-made stuff is soldered inside and decent quality.
The thing to remember is that this is all conjecture and opinion, regardless of expertise. George L.’s is still the lowest capacitance cable I’ve found. 🇺🇸
Actually, it's not - physics can tell you this quite easily when it comes to solderless cables and their connection quality, resistance, and their inherent failure based on them not being gas tight connections. The cable is not the problem, it's the connectors.
I currently use Pedalpatch (solderless), have it on a pedal board ranging of about 7 pedals, for very loud and very heavy Psychedelic Doom, Stoner, Ambient Drone etc., done a lot of gigs, rehearsals, messing about at home involving changing pedals out & all. They're also not on a fancy metal board, but a wooden bathroom stand thingy-ma-jig you put on the floor, cut down to fit the pedals and power supply, added some rubber feet and of course, painted black, anti-slip tape, velcro etc., there's my base. Has had a lot of rough rides. Still goes strong.
My argument is. Well, put them together properly.
They're always on borrowed time. Assembling them properly is important but you can't create a gas tight connection from a solderless cable so you're always at a disadvantage. If you like your solderless cables you can solder almost any solderless cable to a 1/4" plug, no problem. It's the plugs that are the issue, not the cable.
@@VertexEffectsInceverything is on borrowed time, including us 😁
@@Chaotic_Enigma Dust in the wind...
I have been using George L’ s for years with no problems. But whatever blows your skirt up !
If you like the cable, fine. Solder it. I have no objections to the quality of the George L cable, the issue is the connection to the solderless plugs.
Cool that you asked Bjorn!!
This is all opinion because while this video is for soldered there are videos against lol.
Against soldering? Any purported “professional” claiming solderless is superior is a charlatan
those 3 dudes are business owners, great... none of them i doubt have even used solderless cables, or can even solder themselves probably... my solderless pedal board has been faultless for a year so far, and i gig with it.
You're confused my friend...look up what they've done in the industry and their background. This comment is silly.
Is it possible to use the cables that come with a solderless kits in a soldered connection if I change my mind?
For most cables, you can solder them even if they’re designed for a solderless plug
I think it’s probably important to distinguish hand-built, professional-grade soldered cables from the pre-made patch cables you can buy at the store - those always went wrong for me in short order because the cable wasn’t anchored in the plug properly, and the connections frayed and split. No such problems since I started using Evidence Audio solderless - a really decent option for the amateur.
I think that's fair...some of the cheap soldered stuff or Amazon buys will be just as bad with inferior materials. If you're doing a 1:1 Mogami cable with soldered plugs vs. Solderless cables and plugs, soldered will come out cheaper price wise for materials (obviously you need to have a soldering iron). Evidence cable is good, I would just solder it. My problem isn't with the cables themselves, it's with the connections and even if they work, they're deteriorating every time you use them and when measured over time can be very high resistance.
Get a hair cut
saywhaahh you’re right...my nose hairs are getting long
After years of having noise issues with my pedal board I found the two culprits: the solder-less cables! Even the cheaper soldered cables I have work fine, so have thrown the solder-less straight away!
Mason thank you for your videos they are so helpful! Could you make a video that explains what is standard noise (e.g amps, overdrives etc.) and when things are noisey which aren’t supposed to? I never know if I genuinely have noise issues, or whether they are just standard!
You need subtitles. It's hard to conduct interviews with lots of background noise.
It's NAMM, no choice
@@VertexEffectsInc That's why you need subtitles.
soldered always is better but also depends what cable and how solderless connection is applied. I use evidence with sis connection for my pedalboard. Evidence cables are stick inside like a screw and dont come off. I make them with extreme care and i never had any issue. Some times i had to remove the plug and it was very secure while i was removing it. i had to twist the cable 4-5 times to come off. that is how evidence works.. Im not sure if there is any resistant comparing to a soldered cable but to be honest i dont hear any signal loss or hum or noise..and i am very weird on that.i replaced my power supply just in case it adds noise.. i had voodoo power 2 plus and i sold it to buy zuma.. Signal can travel through solderless connections very well if solderless connections are good. Think about that.All cables are connected to the pedals with not solder. Not saying it doesnt matter but stil i think good matterials and good work matters the most. I have no noise not issues at all. .never had and and i tested my pedalboard by moving all cables a bit while playing to see if anything being heard... probably i done some good work. But i will say again. you avoid the chance of failure. But in the other hand bad soldering may cause also bad sound quality.If solde stays too long time on iron it loses the conductance ..I am very careful like a doctor how i make the connections. Professionals may chose soldered connections but cables like mogami and evidence which are solderless are also made from professional. But in the end of course soldered cables are better, without being said that its forbitten or worst a pedalboard with solderless cables. My opinion of course... Nice video. !!!
There are varying quality of solderless, I agree, but at the end of the day, even the best of them, like the Evidence, are still subject to the same issues and still aren't gas tight connections nor is the ground shield at all protected or screwed into anything. Even if you could prove the center conductor was gas tight (which it isn't) the ground is still just floating there and relying on tension from the housing to connect. Also remember that copper is a soft metal, so the screw it only last for so long where it will hold the tension, ultimately it will deform and if you over tighten it, it will cold flow. The more you manipulate it, move it, re-route it the more it degrades the quality of the connection on solderless cables, whether it's Evidence or others. Have you ever seen a lifetime warranty on a solderless cable?
@@VertexEffectsInc no life guarantee of course and of course in movement it will start to fade i agree.. i wont disagree that soldered cable is better i really agree on that. But in the other hand the ground in evidence at leaste in my case, doesnt floating around. I made them extremely carefully. 10 years and not one disconnection or scratch or something.. But you made me worry a bit and when i saw your reply i run to check with a polymeter all connections. core and ground.. All ok and no resistant. Also the ground is not less contacted with the plug than the plug it self(male with female).. All plugs for example aren't in a way floating?? But again.. i agree. soldered are better. no questions on that.. you save one step in a probably issue you might face.. In my case the bad thing is that i gave almost $ 400...do you believe that i should replace them? In the end of the day i agree with you. If i was now to built a pedalboard i would have gone with soldered but now i really am sceptic to replace all of them and waste 400$
How do I become a member and begin drumming up some Hocus Pocus with my fellow paint drinking soldered enthusiasts?
..asking for a friend.
..or maybe just me.
Jerry Vahn Knight Head over to your local Benjamin Moore paint store and bring a shot glass.
I had George L cables on my entire pedal board and they were great at first, but after a while they FAILED constantly and made me look like an idiot too many times. I had a hard time narrowing the problem down to the patch cables ( guitar pickups, guitar cables, guitar volume/tone knobs, pickup selector switch, amplifiers, tubes, jacks, pedals, etc.....I finally narrowed it down to the George L cables. Unless you never play out and don't rely on your equipment in a professional environment... then you should be fine, but if you do rely on your equipment to WORK..then I DO NOT, WOULD NOT recommend the George L cables at all, ever!
The connectors are the big problem, the cable itself I have no problem with. Many people like the sound of it and it's very low capacitance which is nice.
@@VertexEffectsInc cables, connectors whatever. They are unreliable.
Dan and Mick from, "That Pedal Show" would disagree. With that being said, they would only promote Evidence Audio Monorail brand.
Not saying Solderless is better just mentioning this.
You know what would be funny, to ask Lava Cables or George L's or (Insert Brand here). Lol
Dre Batista exactly!
Hey J Steen, I think he actually agrees, he commented in one my other videos here: ua-cam.com/video/rn7f5zX9OFA/v-deo.html. He said something like (paraphrasing) he just finds solderless more time efficient and better in his process, but I think he'd agree that he's not on the same level as legacy rig builders like Suhr (via Bradshaw) or Dave Friedman. If you know much about pedalboard and rig history, those guys are among the most influential and knowledgeable, predating UA-cam if you can believe it ;) . As to Lava and George L's, I wasn't asking cable manufacturers these questions, rather the guys in the field that are putting cables into pro rigs for 30+ years, isn't that more appropriate? Asking George L and Lava their opinion solderless cables would be like asking Phillip Morris their opinion on the health risks of smoking cigarettes? I've also found a lot of these manufacturers (generally speaking) to not rely much on science, but rather anecdote. In fact, a piece I didn't air here was interviewing a solderless plug manufacturer for many of the solderless cable brands out there, and asking if they'd done a saltwater bath to test for gas tight connections, and he said, "no" they rely on the feedback of their manufacturers to validate the quality of their connection. Almost like an "ignorance is bliss" sort of approach.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks for the in depth response. I do agree with you but those guys just came to mind as never using soldiered cables. You are right that those guys are new to building and just did it as a hobby more or less until recently getting UA-cam "Cred". My boards all have soldiered mogami cables and I have been messing with the new EBS flat cables LOL. I have tried some of the new soldierless cables and didnt care for them much. I actually had trouble making connections on some, having to do it several times, just to get inferior sound and less highs.
When I watch your videos I learn some deep stuff especially situations like making the old pedals work on a board go over my head because of all the power and circuit problems. This was a fun post and I'll take one for the team. I currently have the steel string and ultra phonix on my board and enjoy your content, Keep up the good work and you will also create your own legacy in rig building. 🤘😎🤘
Just reread my original post and it sounded cocky, but I didnt proofread it, my intent was to create a little rebuttal but I know you are right.
No harm done! Thanks for the support! 🥳🥳🥳
@@drebatista You are right, 99% of the famous artist rig rundowns I hear Bob Bradshaw helped. I know Pete Cornish is know for doing some great rigs too (ex John Mayer) and is know for some of the best pedals on the market.
I hope you have better namm content coming. Baffles me this video, you’re surrounded with beautiful instruments, and stood right in front of you are the master craftsmen that made them, and you ask about DC cables?!?!?
I love your videos, but this seems like a cop out. Churning out the same content, when you legit did not need to.
As someone that works with coaxial solid core cable daily for my job I actually really like the Evidence solderless system, I can’t seem to make it fail, the connector cuts a thread into the solid core which seems to be the difference with the other systems, I see it like an NL4 which only has screw terminals and is used by every single major event company worldwide.
“Confirmation Bias” played out beautifully. Someone who admittedly has a strong bias/preference gets 3 experts to share their perspectives, thus providing a consensus of the experts and confirm his bias/preference? Not saying they, or you are wrong, but the results were not shocking. Did you ask anyone in the “solderless camp”? It’d be nice to have a larger view of the debate or is it “Cable Cancel Culture”?
The biggest problem with the soldered cables is getting Americans to pronounce ‘soldered’ correctly.
It has a ‘L’ in it, use it please. 😂
Sod and solder are very different in their meaning.
Solder-less cables are the amateur choice.
The old silent "l" was my favorite consonant as a child.
I'm inclined to believe Dave Friedman...
Definitely has put in the time!
@@VertexEffectsInc fo sho
If only Canare made their crimp connectors for TS connectors. I will take a good crimp connector over a soldered connector, or the cold weld like AudioQuest does with their cables. Sturdy as all heck & more reliable than solder.
Typically, the crimping systems used for guitar cables that are out there aren't the quality of say an aerospace crimp, and not equal. The regular calibration (to apply the right force over and over again) and cost of the crimping tool (typically several hundred dollars minimum) would price most folks out of the market for 10-12 simple coax cables used for audio applications on a pedalboard. This is why you don't see these sorts of things on the consumer side with low margin, low cost things like guitar cables. I've not seen a system for guitar cables that's on part with the high end stuff used in other industries. Otherwise I would agree the the cold welded crimp that fuses the materials together between the connections would be preferential, just nonexistent in our industry. Until then, solder it is.
@@VertexEffectsInc you are 100% correct. As for the cold weld, that will typically result in a more expensive cable because a good one would be done by a human & not a machine. Machine cold welding is usually garbage though, and is really non-existent in the consumer space, even for the audiophiles. Need to get Blue Jeans Cable to start making instrument cables. Then you will get the good stuff at great prices (ie. good crimp connectors).
Rich Johnson 🥳🥳🥳
I’ve been using solderless cables for 5 years and my original made to measure cables made by me has worked awesome over hundreds of gigs. Ultra transparent and the sound quality is excellent.
The fact if I want to add new pedals, it takes me about a minute to make a custom sized, super slim profile right angle, straight or mixed cable. I run a Boss es 8 switcher and my cable runs underneath my pedalboard looks like it’s been setup by a professional.
There was one case when one of my band members walked past my pedalboard and his boot snagged onto a cable and ripped the cable out of one of my pedals. All it took was a small pair of cable cutters and a small Phillips head screwdriver and 30 seconds later it was completely fixed. There was no need to pull out the entire cable that’s zip tied in cable runs underneath the board. No need to find a soldering iron to solder the cable back to the plug.
I couldn’t be happier.
Doesn't Dan from The Gig Rig prefer [solderless] patch cables, specifically Evidence Audio... He makes boards for a lot of touring Musicians... That guy seriously knows his craft. 🤷♂️
He does use solderless. However, he's not in the same category or rig builders as a Dave Friedman, Robert Bradshaw, John Suhr, or many of the legacy rig builders mentioned or interviewed in this video. Collectively they've been rig building for over 200 years for the biggest acts in the industry from the 1980's till now.
What about obsidianwire?
Are their any alternatives to squareplugs and switchcrafts because their both very small but insanely expensive. At least in germany where i live (like 25€ for 4 squareplugs).
Neutrik makes some pancake style plugs now, also there are cheaper Chinese copies, but they're not as reliable.
Mason really? Those were the only three? At the whole namm show you couldn’t find a view of someone who uses solderless? I bet if I wanted I could find an opinion that it’s better to use a custom patch bay rather than modding a pedal to be one?! And I like Dave but his point about there being 50 plugs and where’s the fault rings just as true for the soldered they can go faulty as well. Not saying everyone should use solderless but you seem to have this view that no pro guys use them when they do.
Andy Bassist Name two real professional practitioners - meaning pro rig builders, that actually use solderless cables over soldered. If you look at the most influential people in our industry, in particular those who are building the rigs for the highest profile people in the world for 30+ years I don’t think I could’ve gone to two more senior individuals than Dave Friedman or John Suhr. It would be like getting statements from the two leading climate change scientists about global warming. I’m not sure I can get two other people closer to the source than what was in this video. I’m looking for practitioners, not for manufacturers of cables. That’s like asking Philip Morris for a commentary on the health benefits of their product.
@@VertexEffectsInc im not going to get into naming them. as i see this is a pointless situation to get into.
@@VertexEffectsInc Dan Steinhart Would heavily disagree - he's making rigs for way more hi profile players than you dude. and has way more credibility.
Richard Moule He actually doesn’t, he chimed in on our first video on this subject and agreed, however he prefers solderless for his building process and shorten the time of assembly. I make no claim about being an authority or comparing myself as the litmus test. Hence the reason I turned to the most seasoned professionals in this business around pedalboards. Irrespective of who the rigs are made for, this doesn’t negate science, it’s pretty indisputable regarding a gas tight connection being superior and that solderless cables in our industry do not provide this. We might as well be disputing whether the earth is flat.
@@VertexEffectsInc haha -your belligerent flat earth comment is telling Mason. Threaded solid core cables are air tight, the cable superior to stranded. how do you fancy flat eathing that 'science'. we may as-well be having a conversation about how legit your Wah pedals are. right?
I spent $80 on a soldier less cable kit from Lava Cables. It was a nightmare to put them together and they failed CONSTANTLY. Like they said in the video... it’s actually EASIER to solder them. Solderless cables suck.
Been using soldered cables for years... they never last unless you spend the $$ At least with solder- less you can fix it quick when there is an issue without getting the old soldering gun out. George L’s aren’t bad at all... better than half the crap anyone is selling these days. Go into a guitar center and try to find a decent cable... it’s pathetic.
We have some great DIY videos here to make a high end cable for cents on the dollar, definitely check it out!
Never had one problem with solderless cables. And my board travels!
Keep doing the sign of the cross before every gig!
So, do these experts solder the cables directly to the input sections of their amps? Do they solder the tubes to the heaters? I mean these are effectively solderless connections....
The 1/4" jack connection is designed to be mechanically strong and is necessary for transport and routing purposes. And it's also necessary to keep tubes swappable as in an event of tube failure it needs to be replacable fast. So I think you understand aswell that these connections are necessary to keep solderless. But I keep my solderless connections to where they are designed and necessary - to the plug and jack side. A cable is not a plug and while it's been altered to be usable as such, it doesn't give the mechanical strength of properly designed plug and jack.
@@maksmail the transport argument does not hold water for combo amp speaker jacks. The idea that a jack is more mechanically sound than a compression fitting supplied by a screw thread... no. The replacement argument for tube sockets I agree with. However, this is an argument FOR solderless cables. I can’t speak for everyone here, but after gigging an playing for 30+ years I have had FAR more soldered cables go bad at the joint than blown tubes, speakers, or even fuses. With a solderless connection you can just clip and reset without an iron in you guitar case. So, no, I don’t buy this argument. It just does not hold the test of scrutiny. I have built several amps, pedals, radios. This argument just confuses the hell out of me. A jack having a stronger connection than a solderless fitting??? Jack’s are designed to unplug! We put our cars thru hell and back, they are rigorously scrutinized for life and death safety standards, they are also full of mechanical connections (electrical and otherwise). Where are the engineers here!?!?
@@glenncohen4023 @Glenn Cohen On a combo amp the speaker jack has routing argument - you can use external cabs or amps and attenuators.
If a solderless cable fails during a gig then good luck fixing that during a set and instead of soldering iron I always carry a few extra patch cables - this replacment can be done fast during a set. You have to carry spares no matter if soldered or not. If you are just jamming with friends or playing home then that I understand, but on a pro gig you have to keep the downtime to a minimum.
Yes, jacks are designed to be unplugged (duh). That's why we need them - for transport and routing. But rarely ever the plug and jacks fail if they're decent quality but it's the cable connection to them that fails. Ofcourse if abused, then the straight plug (specially a Neutrik tall one) will have a lot of leverage on the jack and can break the connection but on the day-to-day working the wire just wiggles here and there. If assembled properly I trust that solderless cables will work for a while but I don't see them being anything as solid as a soldered connection in that wiggle.
As for cars - these connections are stationary - even on engine these are first connected to the engine before the terminal connection so there's not much stress on these connections. They get exposed to a lot of moisture and salt depending where you live but the important connections (on my Volvo) are sealed.
@@maksmail ok spares can be soldered or solderless. A chain is only as good as the weakest link. That is NOT a solderless cable. AGAIN, I was a gigging musician and will go on record that this is bunk. I have had more jacks fail (enclosed open or hybrid) than solderless cables fail. noise from jacks are FAR more common than failed solderless connection. In fact I have never had a solderless cable go down and I have made hundreds. Generally pro musicians are pretty much the opposite of engineers (not always). This kind of argument is a waste of time. The question and answers are deceptive. You can open the chassis to many modern amps and find crimp connectors everywhere! How is that convenient to anyone other than the tech? Do you transport your pcb outside the chassis if you are a pro musician? Hey pro musicians. Who disconnects all of their solderless connections after a gig?
@@maksmail here is a link to a gut shot of a Friedman amp. Look at all the crimp connectors and pin connectors, again I am not saying this is a bad design. I AM saying it is disingenuous, at best, to claim the pro way to connect is soldered when you amps look like this. Is this NOT a pro amp?...www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/friedman-jj-jr-gut-shots.2052199/
I've said this before, but I was pretty meticulous building solderless patch cables & still had issues. A real pain in the ass trying to figure out which cable is failing on my pedalboard in the middle of a gig. W/ one exception, haven't had a prob since I switched back to soldered cables.
You could also ask Daniel Steinhardt and Tomas Nordegg... for ballance.
Tbf I only like screw in soldered options (Lava tightrope or Evidence Audio). They are literally air tight... and the tiny profile is perfect for pedal switchers.
I don't like or trust the George L style and I really don't like the pin style.
I've had absolutely no issues with my cables over the 4 years. I've used them... in fact bizarrely the only issues I've had have been with soldered ones... which was annoying.
I like that if something was to go wrong (perhaps you stand on a connection?) I'd be able to fix quickly without a soldering iron.
But I'm yet to have this issue.
Gato - sure you could ask them, and they might prefer to use solderless cables for many reasons - but not because they're more reliable than an equally well made soldered cable or that they can sound any better. Daniel, in fact, has chimed in on a few of our cable videos and stated that he preferred using solderless cables because the rigs were relatively sedentary in terms of devices on the board not getting plugged in/out regularly, and there was little stress on the connections as a result that the time savings of solderless was a trade off he was willing to make. I can't speak for Tomas Nordegg, but I remember he also loved George L solderless cables for years in the early days of solderless which even the current solderless cable manufacturers widely condemn for their lack of reliability. In other words, it seems that he's willing to choose a less reliable cable for time savings in assembly. I can understand the attraction, but it's also disconcerting to me as a technician who's built rigs for over a decade to see another technician building rigs and purporting themselves as a professional, when there's not a soldering iron in the building while building a pedalboard, rack, etc. Nevertheless, solderless cables have a place, I think for consumer level stuff it's fine - guys that want to build their own DIY rigs with no soldering skills - I get it. You can be up and running in a few hours with no prior knowledge but why would you want a pro rig builder that you're hiring to build you a bullet proof rig to take this short cut? They feel "tight" to you, but they're not gas tight like a copper wire sealed in solder. That's not an opinion, that's fact. Even on the best solderless systems like the SIS from Evidence (which is what I'd recommend if you want to go this direction) there is still potential for cold flow, it's not gas tight so the copper will corrode and oxidize over time, and the shield (return path) is not at all protected and is free floating in the housing, much more exposed than the center conductor is and it's responsible for the other half of the signal. Like you, there are folks that have been able to use solderless cables successfully - and I think a lot of this depends on condition. Home environments might be OK. Rugged touring and 100+ dates a year, it's not ideal. Beyond that, with most of these solderless systems, you're required to use their cable that's made for the solderless plug. To me, that's problematic as well as you may decide you want a cable that exaggerates more low end (Belden), more mids (Mogami) , more treble (Gepco), etc. you can't make those decisions and use it universally with any 1/4" plug of your choice. Our cables are filters - and the ones we choose will all have an impact on the tone separately from their reliability.
@@VertexEffectsInc I like Daniel, but I'll take Dave Friedman and Bob Bradshaw's word for it over anyone else's. It's called being humble and listening to the experts who have 20-30 years of experience on this exact topic. I used Lava Tightrope for years without issue, until one night at a gig that was no longer true and that's all it takes to ruin your night. I went home and made soldered cables with Mogami and Neutrik jacks and never looked back.
I don't know why people argue this so much, to be honest, it's like they think learning how to solder is like learning how to do open heart surgery. I 100% agree with what Dave said, doing solderless cables right takes as long as soldered and at the end you still don't have the same peace of mind.
I much prefer solderless. I’ve had the same 6 George L patches for 3 years and they’ve never failed me.
Hopefully some of our videos helped!
Vertex Effects always do. I’ve learned more than I expected from the short rig doctor tips.
🙏🙏🙏
Same x6 years on G. cables never had a fail
Brandon Kruse ive been using the same George Ls for almost 9 years now and never failed me... I always rekon its user error when they ‘fail’, make them
properly and you bordering a lifetime with them.
Solderless if your board stays at home and doesn't move.
Soldered cables if you travel a lot with your board :)
The only problems that I have faced have been with souldered cables…
Yeah sure, either you're buying bargain bin cables or you're lying because you invested a few hundred into solderless and want to make yourself feel better.
Haha violin man!!
What a series of of daddy jokes
What’s the difference between a dad and mom joke?
Vertex Effects a Y chromosome!
Well duh! 😁
Solderless is available when i walk into a shop. Shops don't usually have rolls of cable and ends in stock to do custom length diy soldered cable. I do use a mix bag though: cables I've soldered myself, pre made length cables, 1 or 2 of those D'addario/Planet Waves solderless circuit breaker cables.
Sure...it's not as easy, but it's a huge compromise in terms or reliability and in tone in many cases as well.
@@VertexEffectsInc to clarify i do think soldering cables is relatively easy. But if I'm just looking for an instrument cable and the shop doesn't have a roll of cable in stock I'll take the solderless over a week long restock wait. For a hobby solderless works but a gig should be soldered.
I just set up a board using Harley Benton solderless. If you put them together properly and all the pedals are solidly secured I can’t see a problem. There’s no buzzes or signal loss. I suppose I’ll have to how it goes long term.
You’re on borrowed time
@@VertexEffectsInc ok to be fair I’ll take that on board as at the moment I’m only using it in my home studio. But I’m getting a band together after lockdown so will be going on road with it.
@@johnnydiamondsmusic1673 solder it up! Friends don't let friends go solderless
Ooft, wait until this guy finds out that when you plug a patch cable in it’s not actually soldered to the equipment
It's very true, I was using solderless lava tighrope for years without issue, until one night my band hit the stage and... no sound. Everything worked fine at sound check, no issues then suddenly I couldn't get any sound through my pedalboard. Ended up having to play without a board at all that night. Got home and found out somehow one of the tightrope copper cores got pulled out from the plug even though I screwed the tips in to every cable and even tested them by pulling AND with a cable tester.
Everything works until it doesn't.
I ended up switching to soldered Mogami cables and Neutrik jacks and my board has never been quieter and the peace of mind alone is worth the time to solder. Honestly I agree with Dave, to make solderless cables right they really take no less time that making real cables and your fingers are butchered by the time you're done from screwing the damn cables down with those caps they provide. I don't know why I was ever afraid to just solder the damn cables. It's a great skill to learn and is not difficult so I'm not sure why people still argue.
Sure, plugging the cable into a jack is also not soldered, but there's a hell of a lot more contact area too.
Just replaced my lava cable (nearly 70 ra ends for a studio es8 board) with sp400, sp4s, and mogami 2314. I had lava for 3 years and had problems nearly everytime I plugged up.
Soldered is by far easier and cheaper to work with. The confidence you get from having a soldered and strain relieved cable is definitely worth the effort. I'll never go back.
Also, thanks for all the advice!
NIIICE! That's the move!
Love this supersmall plugs, i use them also :)
@@florianbohren5886 I agree! they're awesome!
That just makes sense.
Best of the best weighing in right there!
@@VertexEffectsInc I feel like the onus is on the solderless proponents to explain why their product is better. Common sense tells me that a solid soldered connection is the gold standard.
@@rohankhemraj it is, the rest is marketing at this point. If you can't produce a gas tight connection, the conversation is over. At this point, many solderless cable manufacturers make a good quality cable, and then have a poor connection, doesn't make sense to me. Some are better than others, the Evidence is probably the best, but still isn't gas tight, and therefore is at risk from the time it's built. Risking oxidation, corrosion, and cold flow - this is the enemy of copper.
@@VertexEffectsInc I hear you. I feel like solderless cables are equivalent to breadboard circuits. They're great for testing but bad for gigs.
Should I tag the top solderless cable producer, and all my friends who bought the expensive kit they currently have on their board?🤣
imlacsina Sure, that won’t make this video any more or less valid, the science is the science and if you watch the other solderless video that I made it goes into pretty far depth in explaining this. Asking the producers of solderless cables would be like asking Pepsi Cola if their beverage was healthier than water. You want to talk to the practitioners - those who are actually putting into practice and seeing the results in the field. I believe this sample of practitioners in the video represents the best practitioners in the world among rig builders.
@@VertexEffectsInc is this as legit as your wah pedals mason? asking people like you and dave friedman who profit off making soldered cables, whether their soldered cables are more legit that the likes of SIS EA cables is the same as your pepsi analogy. let it go man.
@@richardmoule2870 - firstly, I don't profit off making cables. The UA-cam videos you see all have materials bought and paid for by the customer in advance of me starting the project - I'm only the laborer. The customer purchases the cable in bulk, as well as all the other materials and supplies. Side note, Mogami 2319 and SquarePlug Ends are less than a boutique brand solderless kit (SIS for example) with the same number of plugs and length of cable. Secondly, Dave Friedman, I would imagine, does charge for cables, however, to my knowledge there is not such thing Bluetooth pedalboards or cable-less pedalboards, so some sort of cable will be necessary presumably to build a pedalboard soldered or not. I would assert that if money were underwriting Dave's choice (or another rig builder), that they would choose the solderless kits since they're a) more expensive meaning more margin and more profit per sale, and b) they're faster to assemble, so it takes you less time and you make more money for every cable made. Lastly, the Pepsi argument holds here because Pepsi, like "Brand X" solderless cable company, are in the business of manufacturing and selling their own product. They cannot be objective to this end as they are the producers of the very product they are in the business of doing commerce with. Dave or other long-time legacy rig builders are the right people to ask because they've seen the trends and understand the science and necessity for a gas tight connection. They aren't going to be swayed by a "windsock" of what's fashionable on UA-cam, but rather what's going to work sustainably in the field to withstand the wrath of a tour.
@@VertexEffectsInc of course you profit from it, your USP is that you will solder cables, and build custom rigs, remove the soldering and you become a carpenter and dual lock specialist. id suggest as well as speaking to rig builders, you should get out there and talk to touring players, you can't throw around 'science' that's fundamentally flawed when ignoring the most important factors here, ease of use, ease of on the fly fixes, tonal properties of solid core cables vs stranded, you are coming at this with total bias, you should at least acknowledge that there are options of equal quality, and reliability to soldered cables, that fall under solder less, acknowledge that there are options for a less experience board builder that will produce equatable reliability (threaded solid core) and acknowledge that soldered cables break, regularly. you aren't helping young guys out without painting a proper picture, supporting your own bias without highlighting these things isn't a great move. your airtight chat is also flawed, as there are solder less options that provide an airtight connection.
@@richardmoule2870 - if the customer is purchasing the cables and plugs independently of me and delivering them to me with their rig, aren't they just supporting the cable and plug companies directly if they're purchasing from them? If your logic is correct, then I too would be profiting from every pedal delivered to me on the pedalboard from every manufacturer that produced that pedal, right?
It's true, I'm a glorified assemblyman - however, I'm only paid for my time, not for the materials I use. If I didn't care about what materials I used, I could just as well build solderless cables instead of soldered, but I'd rather not send out a rig that was walking wounded from the moment it left our showroom due to the reasons I've expressed above. Beyond that, it's nice to be able to have the customer choose a cable that they actually like the sound of, with solderless cables you can't just choose whatever you want, you're locked into what the plug has been manufactured for. So, if you like something with more mids, more hi-end, or darker, you're sorta stuck. Conversely, if you like the sound of a George L, SIS, etc. you can always solder it and get the sound of those cables, if you like them, with the reliability of a gas tight connection.
In terms of using touring pros as a baseline, I've had quite a bit of experience, but mine is 20+ years shy of Dave Friedman and John Suhr. They're not building pedalboards and cables for themselves in a vacuum. Rather, they've been working with the biggest pros on the biggest stages almost longer than I've been alive. Pros, in my experience, prioritize reliability over all else, i.e. can I step on my pedalboard and have it work 100% of the time? When you're spending time as a creative, you don't want to be thinking about whether your rig is going to work or not. You want to spend your time making music.
As I said before, both soldered and solderless, if assembled in accordance to the established best practices - solderless is not comparable to a soldered connection. Soldered is a superior in every way as far as guitar cables are concerned. Again this is established science if you're looking at the oxidation and corrosion of copper when exposed to the elements (i.e. non-gas tight connection). Beyond the science, if you're going to a professional to make you a rig, they're going use solderless cables exclusively, whether it be Robert Bradshaw, XTS, LA Sound Design, Racksystems, Nice Rack Canada, or Omilion Audio - these are the benchmarks and the industry standard guys since the late 70's and between them have built tens of thousands of rigs and presumably know what works and what doesn't for long term reliability. Are they really all gliding on the inertia of the 1970's with regard to soldered cables like baby boomers that still uses a typewriter instead of a computer?
I'm wondering who are these established rig builders, who are contemporaries of the above builders, that are using solderless cables because of their supposed superiority over soldered?
The best cable I've had for my rig is George L's. I don't know why but it has much more clarity and more pronounced highs than all other cables I've tried. I had it for about 15 years before I started having issues with it but its been worth the hassle.
Just solder it to a solderable connector, best of both worlds.
Agreed. No one is speaking about the REAL reason to use George L. They made the other patch cables sound SHITTY! Waay clearer audio. As far as failure, I've found that over all these decades of gigs , touring, clubbing, I can break ANYTHING. Spare cables, quick fix, George L
This is an argument that will go on for years. I’m happy using the Evidence Audio SIS Solderless cables and have had no problems with them. What really winds me up more is the way American’s pronounce solder. there is an “L” in solder therefore it is “soLder” and not soder “!
JJukstratfan You must have never read the literary masterpiece, “Mastering the art of the silent L!”
Just a few observations and comments .... I’m in a “mood”...
Why don’t you pronounce the L in solderless ? You say soderless...maybe the guys from TPS are paid by SoLderless cable companies, has anyone ever commented about your haircut Mr Vertex, trivial I know but Bobs went out in the sixties.
Simon Lynch you have to understand that I’m an uncultured simpleton that lacks the ability to annunciate the letter “L”. As a child I always felt protective of the letter “L” (and Roman numeral “L” for that matter) because in phonics, the silent “ph” always got all the attention as far as silent consonants were concerned. I felt the need to compensate for that with words like “solder”. Bringing back the silent “L” one solder at a time. As far as my hair is concerned, I’m very much enamored with the Sassoon hair styles, sharp angles, and any stylistic elements that resemble a Frank Lloyd Wright building on top of my head. XOXO ~Rig Dr.
Vertex Effects awesome response Sir, thank you for enlightening me, and keep up your great work and Chanel, I do like your haircut by the way.
I think people must be too lazy to sodder their cables, I can’t think of any other reason not to sodder ...
Simon Lynch looking forward to getting our matching tattoos “Solder (sodder) 4 Lyfe!” See ya at Spider Murphys tomorrow, 11AM sharp! www.spidermurphys.com
What your opinion abaout the lava cable sorlder kit! worth or is better the same cable whit other plugs?
The ones that have a soldered tip only, are still really solderless, or "half" soldered and the return path is still totally exposed and not gas tight. The cabe wire itself is fine, just solder it!