Bowling with no push away fixes all my problems 🤔
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Here's my unsolicited advice. Seems like when you have trouble is also when your backswing gets very high. It seems to throw you off balance and mess up your timing. With no push-away, you have to completely muscle the shot. Therefore, it keeps your backswing lower. I believe this may be why your balance and timing were better on this video. I am no coach. But watching, it just seems if you can get your backswing under control, however it is best for you to do so, it would help.
At the same time, the roll is very reminiscent of Bob Spaulding, who played a big roll-out shot in the mid-90s.
Thisssssss
He also did very well with the windmill style. This seems to work the best for him though
What I feel it comes down to is that it quiets his shoulders. If you go watch the normal shots vs these the shoulders don't over rotate as much.
I really respect you responding to the comments and showing you are working hard to get more consistency. I feel like the lack of push away is really just stopping a problem in the swing and simplifying the timing. Once you get comfortable this is going to be deadly
The crazy ass high backswing is 100% your main issue
Agreed, total to the heavens absurd backswing. Stop that and you will be fine. Then you can "roll" the ball rather than spin it or fling it.
Agreed.
The weird thing is it feels shoulder level when it’s that high. When I try to get it lower(with a standard push away), it feels like I have to muscle it to stop it going up anymore lol
I'm curious if you don't mind educating me, why is high swing an issue? It works for a lot of people, right? Numerous players on the tour have a high swing. Is it just dependent on the person? Is it usable but only if you master it? Is it just some rare case that only a select few could ever become good with it?
Perhaps that’s also why the Ron Williams style felt better
@UhKimboze it's another factor that could cause potential timing issues and muscling the ball
This might the most purest your shot has ever been.
Much respect man. We are getting back into things in the last seven months and I just scored my first ever 200 game last week. When I told the 250 average guy next to me, he said "you have a really great swing and approach, you haven't had a 200 game yet? Really? " That made me feel good. I am all like, "dude, I have only been back at this three times a week since October!" Things do get better. It does have to feel right though. In the end, if the pins are falling all down at the end, that is what it is all about. Keep with it and thanks for sharing your journey!
What a major improvement! Keep going, it will get even better than it already is. Continued success!
Bob Learn, Wayne Webb, and others, didn't use a push away because it kept their ball under their head, and behind their head during the back swing and delivery.
Sometimes when we slow down, we get better control and more power, which is illustrated nicely here.
That's a true one hander. None of that cheating by holding the ball up with your other hand as you start your approach. Come on man. Those balls only weigh 12 to 20 pounds!!
@@ripvanrevs hahah this is the funniest comment here 😂😂😂
Marshall Holman was someone else that did that.
Looks great with effortless look to approach and arm swing. Keep working with it.
check your thumb fit... perhaps its whats making you control (muscle it) instead of let it be free (like norms duke or ej tacket as an example) cause grabbing is a big no no ... ... regarding the high of your swing it has to be a natural consecuence of gravity, shoulder flexibility and leg speed... never control ... so start with the ball higher and just let it drop .. .like a pendulum .... if your thumb is the right size you wont need to grab it therefore you wont need to control the swing... Just my two cents ..
Variation goes away because your push way causes a figure 8 and you muscle the ball back towards the pins to get the rotation needed for any kind of hook. Without push away, your swing is very straight.
Never bowling could fix a lot of my bowling problems too lol
We both know we’re not going to quit
@220vlogs Oh, I said too didn't I. No, don't quit. And also continue making custom bowling balls. We need one with a core now. A tiny mailbox
Looking at it from a different perspective. You are taller when you hold the ball at your side (less knee bend) so what happens is you can't be forward (with your torso) and tilted to the right. Also you want your belt and chest pointing at the target you wish to release at. By staying taller longer (more upright) your swing doesn't go nearly as high and is in a better line. When you have the push away your arm (already being so low to begin with) forces your torso forward because you are later (your third step is going forward before you push the ball away). Now that may not necessarily be an issue but when you happen to do it your torso goes forward to get the ball "lower" on the lane at release causing you to turn the ball behind your heel.
Also watching the last Forest video you are actually sliding to the right. What is happening is your third step goes left, and instead of your pivot step and slide being on the same board your slide is actually right of your pivot step. This is causing the turn of the shoulders/torso/hips to open back up to project the ball to the right.
If you really want to emulate a pro. There is a local guy (to my area) Pat Dombrowski. Watch how he throws and try to break down his approach and mirror it to yours and figure out what you can implement that he does. IMO its not the height of the swing that is the issue it is the footwork, second step, third step into your pivot step. Your pivot step going right causes your slide to go right. Where as holding the ball down you cant get as forward as early thus causing your third step to drift left (correct needs to get out of the way) and gives your pivot step a place to fall into under your center of mass. Then when your slide comes around its in alignment.
It seems like here you are standing around 22 but sliding around 26. In the forest video (nutter butter) you stand at 25, drift out to 35 and slide back to 22 crossing infront of your body. Now if you stood at 25 drifted out to 35 (third step) and put your pivot step and slide at 30 you would be smoother and your swing straighter.
Responding to your drift observation in the last paragraph... wondering if he's got the 2 hander footwork, that has bled into his 1 hand game.
@machinethesun9243 doesn't matter as long as its consistent. My point is it is not consistent. The slide right is an issue
That does look good for you. I've actually been considering doing just this, inspired by Bob Learn's swing. My swing is also all jacked up right now, though in a different way from yours and if I don't figure it out soon, I'm going to try this.
Bob learn and Wayne Webb were the OG’s. Taking out some extra movements can help to isolate other areas
MAJOR backswing improvement
I like this swing for you very much man! Removing the push away seems to help stop you from having an uncontrollable back swing, making it more efficient and something you can control since you obviously got the strength to handle the rest of the approach. I say roll with it for a while 👍
I liked this video, I wanna see the whirlwind swing again just because it was so satisfying to watch for me personally. It's so different compared to anything I've seen and it's just... refreshing IMO. It's like that unorthodox bowling styles video, some of those guys that bowl unusually but do it at a high level are SO entertaining. I could watch em for hours.
Agreed. Nate Stubler, Tom Smallwood and Jacob Buttruff come to mind.
Since your almost asking for advice. I have the thing that will help you with your approach.
1. Bend you knees from the beginning alot more to get lower.
2. Keep your push off lower than usual stance to keep your backswing under control.
3. Relax and try not to overpower the pins...you big hunk of muscle-bunch! Hehe
The getting lower from the start will do the same thing as no push away but better. You'll still have a strong shot but under alot more control and a constant shot.
And if this works you have to wear one of Forests lame tee-shirts for at least one league night. Hehe
I know it will work so thats why I put such a harsh penalty for when it does!
"Nutter Butter T-SHIRT" here I come.
What I see is with less velocity on the downswing, you're able to stay more under the ball and drag your fingers in the ball longer and create more revs, vs the high backswing where it looks like it's dropping really fast at the foul line. In fact you're able to drag so much you have that big circular follow through at the end that the really high rev bowlers have
I was dealing with pretty bad tendonitis last year which got exacerabated when I bowled Nationals. Nine games in less than 12 hours on three hours sleep...no bueno. I missed a bunch of league time immediately afterwards, trying to heal. The only thing that helped me was learning how to bowl with no pushaway. Even though I was still in pain, moving up about a foot on the approach and staying behind my Purple Hammer with no pushaway kept me in the 190-200's consistently. I've only recently gotten back to reactive with a pushaway back at my normal start on the approach and I can feel the difference.
Theres still a little baby forward push and it’s looking much better! Some of those bad shots are from turning your hand too early.
Removing the push away seems to do wonders for your swing. I'll have to try this technique and see if it helps my high backswing as well. Thanks for posting. My main issue is spare shots to raise my average up back where it was a couple years ago...
I think it is awesome that you put yourself out there like this, 220. I thought the swing where you went out and windmilled the ball looked really good as well. You have an awesome ability to adapt to different styles and changing mechanics in your "game time" swing can take a long time. Appreciate all the work in your videos and I enjoy watching your progress!
Thank you sir! Windmill felt better mostly because it forced my swing into a nice slot on the way down, this kind of does the same thing - without the crazy beginning 😂
Look at your left arm. Notice how it’s more by your side? Whenever you do your push away, your left arm tends to get more in front of you. In fact it almost goes like across your body. In doing this, your shoulders open way up and force your swing to bounce out to the right. So, the problem is really with your shoulders and how they are rotating through your swing. The left arm almost acts as a lever, and really dictates how your shoulders stay throughout the swing. That’s my take on it anyway.
Your hips turning at the last second is because you could be starting lined up straight. Opening your hips, or pointing your hips towards your target, rather than the head pin could help. I find that when my hips aren’t opened I end up closing my shoulders and pulling my shot to the left.
Looks good. Keep it up
I have a big long push away but also have a short back swing. You can have both. The long push away is to slow my feet down, the short backswing keeps my upper body from twisting as you say.
might because u control your swing or your body doesn't get lower cause your swing short. (reference)
I didn't have my hand up, but noticed you bending the elbow on a few shots. Like you expressed, "work in progress."
Im definitely going to practice doing this!
Much better! 🎳
I was having a similar issue as you, and I tried bringing my starting position way up near my pec level and my pushaway was more of a drop. I guess since it had longer to travel it lowered my swing a bit and everything fell into place.
Tinkering is always fun.. sometimes you find something that works for you that you dont expect.
2 ways for backswing, straight back or figure 8. I think your tendency is to push left causing backswing to be right, but you then need to loop it back inside and adding body twist. "No pushway" is basically a straight backswing or half of it. Try starting ball in the path of your swing trajectory. As you like to swing the ball, the ball should be slightly to the right in front and slightly to the left when behind. We are talking a few degrees of angle. I tried figure 8 and it was too hard to be consistent. Im having much success with aligned straight swing to the trajectory. Much luck.
Happy to see you found a switch that looks comfortable and rolling nice. Rooting for you 👏 I think your “off” shots in this video- your 3,4,5 steps get a little quick, keep those feet syrupy!
It's mostly because you're picking/lifting the ball up higher in your backswing. A forced swing is easier when it's not so high, and removing the pushaway is what made it go lower. It's probably fine to do it like this, especially if it feels good and you do it consistently. I was working through some similar stuff too
I think if you get your hand all the way under the ball so your fingers are on the inside of the ball and keep them there throughout the entire delivery the swing will take care of itself. It is not necessary to have the fingers on the outside of the ball to create hook. Hope this helps.
You can tell at the end you getting tired because that push away is essential for your pendulum momentum.
Michael, your biggest issue is using muscle to deliver the ball, optimum comes with the minimal muscle tension to perform the action
Didn't like the lunar eclipse footage every time you bowled huh :P tbh the drills you did months back seemed to help but you feel back into the groove. Nice to see you have similar trials during practice as us
I need more exercise to feel good muscling it like that. It definitely is easier to control, but definitely has more soreness involved. If i bowled regularly I'm sure it would only feel better and better. I also like pushing it back so i can roll it with the speed of light 😃
Over 15 years ago norm duke did a coaching seminar and pretty much told me to do what your doing now but with 2 hands. Hypothetically it should lower your backswing and ball speed and force you to bend your elbow more. I threw the ball to fast end had to high a swing. I don't think I could do it with 1 hand like you tho
if you hold the ball up and on your first step you put your arm with ball forwards and relax is after you pushed it out. than on the second step you ball will swing to the back automaticly if you relax your arm and you dont have to put any power on it what so ever and it will make you smooth and accurate.
Since no one in these comments seems to get to the root of the issue, here it is.
Your arm pulls away from your body with a full push because your timing is so late. You have no choice but to pull it up, and then pull it down and throw it over your toe. This way removes the push, puts the swing in a MUCH better timing spot in the approach, and when you get to the pivot step, you don't have to pull down anymore - the ball is in the correct spot without you pulling it around. Pulling and late timing is also what causes your balance issues.
You can achieve the same thing with a full push if you'd get the ball into the swing sooner. Your swing is still a bit muscled, but it's exponentially better than it was before.
I do the same way but I rest it right on the edge of my leg and use both hands
Have you considered letting the ball fall instead of pushing the ball forward? That is sort of a middle ground and not as extreme as no push away at all.
Holding the ball any higher for some reason triggers my swing to come out. Even just dropping it into the swing. I think it’s something from one of my workouts dripping into my muscle memory
Gotta bring back the windmill backswing, thought it looked good for you.
I second this
Me too. That was a lot of fun to watch.
i will try this but bear tells me I am the best already!
what I am seeing the ball is starting under your shoulder, a lot of time with the push away the ball will be more inside causing you to push it right which makes it get behind your body, which then causes your timing to get upset because your ball needs to travel further. I like your trying to get the feel back this way, but you definitely have to muscle the ball back which could have adverse effects if/when you try to implement any push away in the future. Ball speed is definitely lower with this so short patterns will definitely be a challenge during regionals..... sorry I rambled a lot.
Wayne Webb did that back in the day your back swing shorter more compact looks better
I do agree that this looks much better. Can’t help but wonder if it would have the same effect if you started with your left hand on the ball but still no pushaway. Holding with one hand for the full set-up seems like it could cause some issues over long periods with muscling the ball/fatigue. Could be worth giving it a shot and seeing how it feels.
Something in my muscle memory activates and my swing gets wonky when I attempt to support it with my other hand at all. Can’t figure out why. I think it’s something from my gym routine
Lower backswing. The no-pull away prevents a high backswing.
If it works it works
Try 3 or 4 steps
Do you hear how loud the ball is when it hits the lane? The next time you're next to Forrest listen to how much smoother his ball is when it hits the lane. If you can smooth that out you'll be even more accurate when you're aiming at your target. I'm no pro. Just my two cents.
Just remember it takes Professional golfers 10k to 15k repetitions before 1 swing change is ingrained into muscle memory so they don't have to think about it
I know a dude that has bowled like that for ages. I guess there is a good reason for it. He is a very good bowler, but the only one I know that does that.
Bob learn jr and Wayne Webb are some older national pros who used a similar technique
I think part of your backswing problem is because in your setup you hold your ball more towards the center of your body.
How does this affect your ball speed and rev rate and axis tilt
A little like Bob Learn Jr
Push away changed my game for the better hit target 99% of the time but whatever works do it
You should try going with a professional coach, maybe you could do a collab with Mark Baker? Been watching some of his videos and have greatly improved from the videos alone.
Way better.... which is nuts.
Dammit I hate them shadow pins haha
Many similar questions that any person who hasnt had coaching has. Perfectly normal. Why not just have some coaching ?
Go see Mark Baker if your serious about a fix
@@anthonyrubin9283 Why are telling ME. Tell HIM lol. ( btw, i have done a lesson with Mark Baker, he is great ! )
i over extrate my tilt like two handers do or no thumb bowlers
Your shoulders look more square with the pins
Less motion(moving parts) easier to time.
Much simpler
What’s your opinion on 1 handed no thumb ?
Every style is good as long as you can repeat shots
Nutter Butterz
Letting the ball hang like that will tire and strain your arm and hand over time.
It is fine as an instructional tool but not as a long term way to bowl.
Ideally you want the majority of the ball's weight in your support hand.
With the no pushaway you are keeping your absurdly high backswing low and straight and also slowing your foot speed which also keeps the backswing low and improves your timing.
Learn to go slower and keep the starting position of the ball low and backswing low and you will be fine.
it just means that you lose control when the ball too outstretched from you
You start swinging your ball back a little later after your right step.
Why do some bowlers tuck their little finger in?
to get more axis rotation
What is a pushaway
with this exercise you dont rotate your shoulders and you get better at the foul line ;)
I think its cause you're too jacked!😅 seriously though having no momentum going into your backswing allows you to feel the ball immediately so you don't have to "muscle" the ball all the way to the top of your swing to feel it. At least that makes sense to me.
i notice on your "no pushaway" shots your elbow is bent a lot. maybe that is the real ticket just bending your elbow more!
I am nowhere near as good of a bowler as you are so you can ignore this advice/observation if you want. Anyway I think when you have no push away, your shoulders seem more level and your body doesn't turn as much. I think it's due to your left arm. So you could try to keep your left arm straight to the left with a push away and see how it feels. It might make you play straighter angles though.
Your bowling style is similar to how an ex professional bowler Wayne Webb used to bowl the ball. Now google his name and you can study his style of old to see if that is what would really hep your game or not.
Oh...i thought you destroyed your form for content. Lol. Looks normal now. Back to 220 i guess...
The comeback arch
I like chocolate
It was one time
To much muscle not Enough flexibility
You may have straightened your arm swing, but your “muscling” every shot, your arm swing should be like a pendulum. Let it fall
That didn’t look right.
Dude don't do this style. You have no power at all and won't work long term. You are a much better bowler 2 handed. Stick with that it's your best bet!
Man, the main issue with your game is your armswing. You don’t seem to understand what it takes to swing an object in sports. Baseball bat, Tennis racket, golf club, etc. The whole arm and the wrist need to be relaxed during the swing. The wrist get firm ONLY AT THE MOMENT OF IMPACT. That’s basic mechanics in sports.
You are cupping your wrist during the entire swing. Try to swing a basebal bat with a firm wrist and you will understand what I am talking about.
The problem is, you somehow think that you can get away with that type of stiff motion and the true is you will not.
That’s an extremely inefficient way of swinging an object, but in the end, it’s your game and you decide what to do with it.
Good luck
Your push away is too early.