I no longer am building cars, but when I did, my wishbone was very similar to your new design, but we used a rubber bellows toe dust seal on the slider. We didn’t have the Teflon bearings, we used a second steel insert for size, and a grease zerk was installed, and the bellows kept everything clean.
Took about ten seconds for me to realize this is a science and as such must be learned. I would have not only done it wrong. but most likely made a death trap..thanks for taking the time to do this..sincerely.
Vincent McAllister I will fight you for that opportunity. Only problem is that I am well over 70 and a massive 140 pounds. Do not move very fast any more so I will ask for a head start of maybe......a week.
I haven't watched all of your other videos, but from what I can tell, you are running a relatively parallel 4 link with a a wishbone that also telescopes in length. pretty cool stuff. I was watching another channel the other day, and they had a truck with a 4 link front that used a scissor mechanism for a panhard bar that had a sliding joint. it used the same thing for the steering linkage as well.
Usually a "scissor mechanism" is a Jacob Ladder, they are popular on sprint cars. I would be interested to see what you saw because a Jacob's Ladder does not use a telescoping tube.
@@davidfarmer I guess I dont understand. I thought you said "I was watching another channel the other day, and they had a truck with a 4 link front that used a scissor mechanism for a panhard bar that had a sliding joint."
@@fastone371 right, first i was talking about what was in this video "you", a telescoping wishbone. then I was talking about another video from another channel "they", a scissor mechanism to replace the panhard..
Very cool, if you ever have the need to be more accurate , I have a suggestion. Make the tool out of the same material you’re welding. The thermal expansion will be the same. We do that in aircraft tool building. That small of scale would be minute. Great job keep up the great videos...
The first time the car bounces down the track things move..constant alignment is part of the deal anyway. the tolerances you mention are minuscule as compared to adjustable nature built into the various components..the enemy of good is perfect. :)
How do you maintain correct Interpass temperature with out the cooling effects of copper or aluminium in such a fixture. There dealing with 4130 cond (N) in the .065"-.120" wall thickness. Also i think they could benefit from back purging there stuff for a longer service life.your thoughts on this ?
When I say to build a tool of similar material, that just helps with the contraction and growth of the materials in different climates. I agree with the purging the tubings with gas to help with a cleaner weld. I have seen parts get tool locked because it grew faster than the tool because of heat and warping. We learn new stuff every day! Good and bad..lol
Honestly, that level of precision is a bit beyond what's required for drag racing, there's enough slop in other components(not to mention all of that massive sidewall between your firmly affixed wheels and the ground below you) that such a minute improvement in tolerance is simply going to go unnoticed. If this was one-off high dollar custom build stuff, that would be one thing; but this is a production piece, it's a piece of universal chassis hardware, and a wear item at that. Diminishing returns - gotta maintain a decent margin. Now, if you want to see ALL of the bells & whistles thrown at welding for motorsports - look up Trophy Trucks, they're completely over the top in every single way, including the most extensive fabrication in motorsports. 6000+lbs of tig welded chromoly tube, everything gets torn apart down to the bare chassis and inspected for cracks(tube chassis are wear items for Trophy Trucks... and that's for a vehicle that costs $750,000 to $1,000,000 to begin with; Pro Mods are SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper, closer to $200,000 for a nice car, probably 1/3rd the tubing, 1/3rd the labor, etc.) after every single event just because of how brutal hundreds of miles through gnarly desert terrain, propelled by ~800HP(not including the couple of turbocharged trucks now...), and swinging big heavy 39"-42" tires through more than 2 feet of suspension travel. The forces are just crazy, especially when they're capable of 140MPH flat out on relatively smooth terrain. Trophy Trucks are kinda like the low riders of the motorsports world - yea, they're completely utterly over the top, but for as over the top as they are everything is done to a show winning level of perfection(literally - again, ~$1,000,000...). There's some very nice fab in drag racing and road racing, much like your more traditional show cars are very nice cars; but Trophy Truck fab is just on a different level(largely due to necessity), just like low riders are basically show cars in their most extreme form.
@@RyTrapp0 Actually, you should spend some time around a top level drag racing tuner. Believe it or not, they can tell the difference when a part isn't exactly straight. Minute adjustments made to a precise setup are what keep a 5,000hp door car from slamming the wall.
I have wallowed out wishbones where the slider enters, and exits. Used to just replace them. Now I put a steel split shaft collar on both ends, and torque them down so the tubing can't wallow out. Been running the same one now for a while
Hi Tim, I'm rebuilding Bill Jenkins Grumpy's Toy VIII 70 1/2 Camaro Pro/Stock car. As you may or may not know that car was built by SRD and it has a 3-link rear suspension with a wishbone. I'm upgrading a couple of the components like the wishbone and the link arms. The link arms arm pretty straight forward but the wishbone is a little wider than anything you have listed on the website, approximately 24 inches across the eyelets. I'm wondering if your jig would accommodate a width that large and if so would you be interested in building that piece for this historic old race car? Best regards Michael Brennan
Ah. There's a slider. Now I finally see how this 4-link mechanism can work. You know there are tube laser-cutters out there that can make these notches in tube ends in seconds? You will have to outsource it as it's a huge investment and it obviously doesn't work on bend sections. But it's a lot cheaper than CNC-milling.
stud biker bracelet combined w/sturdy hose clamp, but the studs face into the pipe u r clamping onto. Plenty strong bc instead of just 2 pins u hve it studded all the way around pipe. Nothing to drill out or rear weld just torque on or off the hose clamp.
Hello, I have a CHE rear end brace and axle tubes welded. Done right by welding tubes empty with a jig in middle to keep tubes straight. Any benefits of adding a wishbone to the rear or at this point, would be unnecessary and even over kill? Thank you
@@Timmcamis We acquired a used 69 Chevelle drag car, it had 14" x 32" slicks. It was built in the late 70's or early 80's as a Super Stock car I believe. It used the factory frame, they found a donor convertible top frame that is boxed from the factory, and built an unequal length 4-link that fit under the near stock floor. It also had a sliding wishbone!!!! At first I kinda thought the car was a POS until I started looking at the effort, the problems that they faced, their solutions, and the era in which the car was built. I gained a lot of respect for it when I put it into perspective, even the front running Pro-Stocks were crude at best in that time period.
What are your guy's opinions on running a wishbone on a street driven car? It's built for the track, we just haven't gotten around to taking the license plate off... While I'm curious about the general thoughts on this, my application in specific is a stock style suspension radial Fox body, I'm running the Baseline Suspension 'Outlaw' relocated uppers + lowers, all heims/solid ends no rubber/poly. In spite of the heim/solid rear links, these stock style Fox(and G-body for that matter) suspensions are known for a little side-to-side movement(triangulated 4-links are compromised by design), so I was thinking about maybe a wishbone mounted between the lower links to afix the rear end along the chassis centerline for good for rock solid stability. I don't know if there's any risk of causing some damage during axle articulation, like what can happen with drag racing anti-roll bars on the street, but that's definitely a concern.
You would need to protect the slider with bellows or something to keep the street grime out or it would not last long. I have the same problem with hiem joints on my street car. I suggest putting boots on them and keeping em packed with grease. The service interval will still be quite high for a street car. *As long as nothing is binding* you should be fine. Drop out your spings and shocks and manually manipulate the rear end, feel for any bind before buttoning up.
respond to ping on internet port is good for BF4 if you get kicked out from servers saying you don't have a ping for everyone to look at. It's not showing ingame? This is the issue. Enable that. I also felt alittle less latency too.
I no longer am building cars, but when I did, my wishbone was very similar to your new design, but we used a rubber bellows toe dust seal on the slider. We didn’t have the Teflon bearings, we used a second steel insert for size, and a grease zerk was installed, and the bellows kept everything clean.
I drank a beer every time Tim said fixture and a shot of whiskey every time he said jig. NoW iM sEeInG dOuBlE fUgGiN vIsIoN !!
Tim’s cars are like jewelry !!! They look good in the staging lanes and even better in the winners circle 😲
I'd love to see a video on the benefits and advantages of the track locator wishbone over a cross brace, watts link etc
Took about ten seconds for me to realize this is a science and as such must be learned. I would have not only done it wrong. but most likely made a death trap..thanks for taking the time to do this..sincerely.
I know cars, but not race, I had no idea how it was mounted, just enjoyed the engineering shit
Parts that last are what we ALL look for ! Thanks Tim
Love your stuff man. Attention to detail and beautiful engineering.
As always the professor has spoken so y'all best listen 💯
Beautiful! Thank you Tim.
Unbelievable workmanship! It would be great to see the fixture and the CNC process
Thanks again Tim for another great video
That is ART....WOW!
Can I come to your shop and just weld for a week at a time.. your zero gap fitups are a welders dream!
Vincent McAllister I will fight you for that opportunity. Only problem is that I am well over 70 and a massive 140 pounds. Do not move very fast any more so I will ask for a head start of maybe......a week.
@@maxwellbricks7202 hahahahaha, I'll make you a deal, we can alternate days lol.
Vincent McAllister DONE DEAL. You can go first since you are younger. Have a good weekend and stay safe & healthy.
I haven't watched all of your other videos, but from what I can tell, you are running a relatively parallel 4 link with a a wishbone that also telescopes in length. pretty cool stuff. I was watching another channel the other day, and they had a truck with a 4 link front that used a scissor mechanism for a panhard bar that had a sliding joint. it used the same thing for the steering linkage as well.
Usually a "scissor mechanism" is a Jacob Ladder, they are popular on sprint cars. I would be interested to see what you saw because a Jacob's Ladder does not use a telescoping tube.
@@fastone371 it was the any level lift, theres no telescoping on that.
@@davidfarmer I guess I dont understand. I thought you said "I was watching another channel the other day, and they had a truck with a 4 link front that used a scissor mechanism for a panhard bar that had a sliding joint."
@@fastone371 right, first i was talking about what was in this video "you", a telescoping wishbone. then I was talking about another video from another channel "they", a scissor mechanism to replace the panhard..
@@fastone371 the joint slides along a bar mounted horizontally to the axle.
Very cool, if you ever have the need to be more accurate , I have a suggestion. Make the tool out of the same material you’re welding. The thermal expansion will be the same. We do that in aircraft tool building. That small of scale would be minute. Great job keep up the great videos...
The first time the car bounces down the track things move..constant alignment is part of the deal anyway. the tolerances you mention are minuscule as compared to adjustable nature built into the various components..the enemy of good is perfect. :)
How do you maintain correct Interpass temperature with out the cooling effects of copper or aluminium in such a fixture.
There dealing with 4130 cond (N) in the .065"-.120" wall thickness.
Also i think they could benefit from back purging there stuff for a longer service life.your thoughts on this ?
When I say to build a tool of similar material, that just helps with the contraction and growth of the materials in different climates.
I agree with the purging the tubings with gas to help with a cleaner weld.
I have seen parts get tool locked because it grew faster than the tool because of heat and warping. We learn new stuff every day! Good and bad..lol
Honestly, that level of precision is a bit beyond what's required for drag racing, there's enough slop in other components(not to mention all of that massive sidewall between your firmly affixed wheels and the ground below you) that such a minute improvement in tolerance is simply going to go unnoticed.
If this was one-off high dollar custom build stuff, that would be one thing; but this is a production piece, it's a piece of universal chassis hardware, and a wear item at that. Diminishing returns - gotta maintain a decent margin.
Now, if you want to see ALL of the bells & whistles thrown at welding for motorsports - look up Trophy Trucks, they're completely over the top in every single way, including the most extensive fabrication in motorsports. 6000+lbs of tig welded chromoly tube, everything gets torn apart down to the bare chassis and inspected for cracks(tube chassis are wear items for Trophy Trucks... and that's for a vehicle that costs $750,000 to $1,000,000 to begin with; Pro Mods are SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper, closer to $200,000 for a nice car, probably 1/3rd the tubing, 1/3rd the labor, etc.) after every single event just because of how brutal hundreds of miles through gnarly desert terrain, propelled by ~800HP(not including the couple of turbocharged trucks now...), and swinging big heavy 39"-42" tires through more than 2 feet of suspension travel. The forces are just crazy, especially when they're capable of 140MPH flat out on relatively smooth terrain.
Trophy Trucks are kinda like the low riders of the motorsports world - yea, they're completely utterly over the top, but for as over the top as they are everything is done to a show winning level of perfection(literally - again, ~$1,000,000...). There's some very nice fab in drag racing and road racing, much like your more traditional show cars are very nice cars; but Trophy Truck fab is just on a different level(largely due to necessity), just like low riders are basically show cars in their most extreme form.
@@RyTrapp0 Actually, you should spend some time around a top level drag racing tuner. Believe it or not, they can tell the difference when a part isn't exactly straight. Minute adjustments made to a precise setup are what keep a 5,000hp door car from slamming the wall.
Your a genius Tim I hate shrinkage can u make me a fixture to help with it
I have wallowed out wishbones where the slider enters, and exits. Used to just replace them. Now I put a steel split shaft collar on both ends, and torque them down so the tubing can't wallow out. Been running the same one now for a while
So these locate the rear end like a Panhard or a watts link?
Hi Tim,
I'm rebuilding Bill Jenkins Grumpy's Toy VIII 70 1/2 Camaro Pro/Stock car. As you may or may not know that car was built by SRD and it has a 3-link rear suspension with a wishbone. I'm upgrading a couple of the components like the wishbone and the link arms. The link arms arm pretty straight forward but the wishbone is a little wider than anything you have listed on the website, approximately 24 inches across the eyelets. I'm wondering if your jig would accommodate a width that large and if so would you be interested in building that piece for this historic old race car?
Best regards Michael Brennan
Ah. There's a slider. Now I finally see how this 4-link mechanism can work. You know there are tube laser-cutters out there that can make these notches in tube ends in seconds? You will have to outsource it as it's a huge investment and it obviously doesn't work on bend sections. But it's a lot cheaper than CNC-milling.
stud biker bracelet combined w/sturdy hose clamp, but the studs face into the pipe u r clamping onto. Plenty strong bc instead of just 2 pins u hve it studded all the way around pipe. Nothing to drill out or rear weld just torque on or off the hose clamp.
Hello, I have a CHE rear end brace and axle tubes welded. Done right by welding tubes empty with a jig in middle to keep tubes straight. Any benefits of adding a wishbone to the rear or at this point, would be unnecessary and even over kill? Thank you
That fitment was dam perfect.
shit
Almost as good as the side plate on a S&W 686.
I noticed in the video the wishbone mounted both ways does it not matter how it's mounted?
Not really. It has more to do with preference than anything. Tim should be answering this question in an upcoming video.
Did you apply for the patent ?
Fun drinking game: every time tim says jig or fixture take a shot .
Goodluck Ps. Really nice video
,,, what was the first of these ? I know Don Ness had them in 1987, and maybe earlier .
Can't remember. There's been many designs and variations over the last 40+ years.
Don Ness if he is or was from AZ. He is a assh~le.
,,, Don Ness, was from Minnesota, ,,, rip .
@@Timmcamis We acquired a used 69 Chevelle drag car, it had 14" x 32" slicks. It was built in the late 70's or early 80's as a Super Stock car I believe. It used the factory frame, they found a donor convertible top frame that is boxed from the factory, and built an unequal length 4-link that fit under the near stock floor. It also had a sliding wishbone!!!! At first I kinda thought the car was a POS until I started looking at the effort, the problems that they faced, their solutions, and the era in which the car was built. I gained a lot of respect for it when I put it into perspective, even the front running Pro-Stocks were crude at best in that time period.
What are your guy's opinions on running a wishbone on a street driven car? It's built for the track, we just haven't gotten around to taking the license plate off...
While I'm curious about the general thoughts on this, my application in specific is a stock style suspension radial Fox body, I'm running the Baseline Suspension 'Outlaw' relocated uppers + lowers, all heims/solid ends no rubber/poly. In spite of the heim/solid rear links, these stock style Fox(and G-body for that matter) suspensions are known for a little side-to-side movement(triangulated 4-links are compromised by design), so I was thinking about maybe a wishbone mounted between the lower links to afix the rear end along the chassis centerline for good for rock solid stability.
I don't know if there's any risk of causing some damage during axle articulation, like what can happen with drag racing anti-roll bars on the street, but that's definitely a concern.
You would need to protect the slider with bellows or something to keep the street grime out or it would not last long. I have the same problem with hiem joints on my street car. I suggest putting boots on them and keeping em packed with grease. The service interval will still be quite high for a street car. *As long as nothing is binding* you should be fine. Drop out your spings and shocks and manually manipulate the rear end, feel for any bind before buttoning up.
400th 👍's up guys thanks for the great information on how to go fast
✊
What 3 MOE-RONS disliked this video?
respond to ping on internet port is good for BF4 if you get kicked out from servers saying you don't have a ping for everyone to look at. It's not showing ingame? This is the issue. Enable that. I also felt alittle less latency too.
#whenyouwantthegoodshit
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