LGA by subway makes sense, but I’m very skeptical about a JFK extension. The A is already heavily branched, and the C is already a branch of the A, operationally speaking. This means frequency wouldn’t be all that high. Airports themselves also don’t generate much ridership by themselves, and require the neighborhoods along the route to justify the extension. Astoria is dense enough for an extension, and you might as well continue the line to the airport. JFK has to pass through Southern Queens, which is mainly SFH and missing-middle density, which isn’t dense enough to support a subway line. Upzoning for TOD in the area isn’t smart, as there are better areas around the existing system to upzone first, and those places are closer to the city. I believe the AirTrain should be free however, like an APM should be.
@@deanpeterson_ It’s also worth looking into better mainline rail connections to JFK. There is a popular idea among railfans known as thru-running, that would essentially combine LIRR, MNR, and NJT services into a single unified system, with thru-service across the entire region. This means that trains from Westchester and New Jersey could would pass through Jamaica, which has a connection to the JFK AirTrain (which should be free, as I stated before). Mainline rail connections to airports are generally more preferable, I’m guessing, because airports don’t operate on the traditional peak/off peak schedule as other places in the city. Chicago and other cities build out their metro systems to airports because many American cities generally don’t have any other ridership generators besides airports. NYC is a different beast, there are so many more places to add ridership, which are not the airport. Good video though 👍
i'll add one bit to your comment: upzoning the rockaways is incredibly fucking stupid when you think about how big of a flood risk that entire area is. the last thing society needs to do is to prop up even more neighborhoods in flood zones, especially when all those homes will be insured by the moral hazard known as taxpayer subsidized flood insurance.
"raised to 4.50" after 30 years of inflation fee has actually been cut from $6.70 in 2023 dollars to $4.50 and FWIW, it would be hard to create an "offshoot" of the A or C without reducing service to the rest of the Rockaways. not to mention, the disjointed and disconnected terminals means that passengers would still have to take another transit option to get between terminals, even if the train brought you smack in the middle of JFK. LGA would've been a better airport to use for this video
While the FAA rule-change is definitely a good start to improving transit, I doubt that its wise to suddenly consider one for JFK airport when they already have a rail link established. While a direct rail link would be nice (like the one they have in Philly or Chicago), the Airtrain has some benefits in that the loop helps connect passengers between terminals and to rental-car and long-term parking, not just the subway/LIRR. Doing so eliminates or reduces the need for buses to circulate and pick up/drop off passengers for that cohort. I agree the Airtrain should be free - or if they're going to charge people $$, charge the original $5 or lower and install OMNY at the Airtrain readers so people can tap their credit cards and reduce the long lines at Metrocard stations (which should hopefully be before 2024). If one could pay $2.75 on the subway with a free transfer to the Airtrain that would certainly be nice, but even airports like Denver or Chicago have an Airport fare zone which is a bit more expensive than your overall subway ticket since it caters to the flying population specifically. If your overall transit fares to the airport are $7.75 (subway + Airtrain), its no $2.75 but still much preferable to a $50 Uber or $65 taxi, which can be subject to traffic conditions. Current $10.75 is a bit absurd, that much I agree. I guess a subway extension could work for LGA airport, but given how expensive it is to build anything in the Big Apple, I don't see much of a reason to do so when the MTA is already trying to plug holes into its projected budget deficit. Sure PFCs could be used by the PANYNJ but given the astronomical cost, years of construction and coordination with the beleaguered MTA, and the legal fights they'd put up with from nearby residents since its a neighborhood-adjacent airport, the extension doesn't seem worth it. A subway extension had been tried in the 1990s during Giuliani's term as mayor but was shot down by residents of Queens and local politicians, who feared noise, disruption, and a blighted view of their neighborhoods. There's no reason to think those residents would change their attitude now. Like the LGA Airtrain concept or not (and it was very much hated), there's a reason Cuomo picked it. But now that's cancelled. The current bus connections (Q70 and M60) are more than adequate in that they connect to 17 different subway lines plus LIRR/Metro-North (plus one of the buses is free now). There's definitely a trade-off to be made of just one line extending to the airport vs. a bus connecting to multiple lines for passengers' convenience, and that too for just $2.75. In America, a tradeoff usually must be made between cost and time-savings to reach the airport. There will always be a demand for Ubers or Taxiis no matter how expensive, given that lots of people travel with lots of luggage and with large families. PANYNJ should find a way to just make the existing options to the airports cheaper and better-advertised. This is preferable to wasting billions to build a mile-long subway extension that would likely save just a few minutes. Personally speaking, given how expensive everything is in NYC, I'd much rather have a cheaper ride via public transit to the airport even if it takes a little more time than by car vs. a more expensive one.
Taking a bus to the airport sucks. You have no idea what the traffic will be like. To all those who say the AirTrain you have no idea what the traffic will be that day. Airplanes run at specific times. I can't afford to buy another ticket because of the traffic that might occur. Going to JFK from Grand Central is a breeze but trying to get to LGA is a nightmare. What needs to be done is NYC needs to use eminent domain and get the air train back up. The cost of paying for Air Train is a heck of a lot cheaper then having to pay for a lost flight because of traffic.
Good video. For all the complaints about Airtrain it is a high quality piece of infrastructure able to accommodate demand twenty years later. It also is a great showcase for driverless metros, which are badly needed if American metros are to ever meaningfully expand (like they are in Canada). Robert Moses had the support of industry and spineless political leaders and they deserve as much blame as he does. The Van Wyck Expressway surplus space, formerly used as a landscaping buffer for the residential areas adjacent is now being converted into a continuous fourth lane (X2). MetroCards are flexible plastic.
these construction cost numbers are always so bonkers! a billion!
A billion dollars isn’t cool, you know what’s cool? Cobbled together public infrastructure.
LGA by subway makes sense, but I’m very skeptical about a JFK extension. The A is already heavily branched, and the C is already a branch of the A, operationally speaking. This means frequency wouldn’t be all that high. Airports themselves also don’t generate much ridership by themselves, and require the neighborhoods along the route to justify the extension. Astoria is dense enough for an extension, and you might as well continue the line to the airport. JFK has to pass through Southern Queens, which is mainly SFH and missing-middle density, which isn’t dense enough to support a subway line. Upzoning for TOD in the area isn’t smart, as there are better areas around the existing system to upzone first, and those places are closer to the city. I believe the AirTrain should be free however, like an APM should be.
Wow thanks for your in depth insight!
@@deanpeterson_ It’s also worth looking into better mainline rail connections to JFK. There is a popular idea among railfans known as thru-running, that would essentially combine LIRR, MNR, and NJT services into a single unified system, with thru-service across the entire region. This means that trains from Westchester and New Jersey could would pass through Jamaica, which has a connection to the JFK AirTrain (which should be free, as I stated before). Mainline rail connections to airports are generally more preferable, I’m guessing, because airports don’t operate on the traditional peak/off peak schedule as other places in the city. Chicago and other cities build out their metro systems to airports because many American cities generally don’t have any other ridership generators besides airports. NYC is a different beast, there are so many more places to add ridership, which are not the airport. Good video though 👍
i'll add one bit to your comment: upzoning the rockaways is incredibly fucking stupid when you think about how big of a flood risk that entire area is. the last thing society needs to do is to prop up even more neighborhoods in flood zones, especially when all those homes will be insured by the moral hazard known as taxpayer subsidized flood insurance.
Atlanta has one seat rides into the airport? Show me that route.
"raised to 4.50"
after 30 years of inflation fee has actually been cut from $6.70 in 2023 dollars to $4.50
and FWIW, it would be hard to create an "offshoot" of the A or C without reducing service to the rest of the Rockaways. not to mention, the disjointed and disconnected terminals means that passengers would still have to take another transit option to get between terminals, even if the train brought you smack in the middle of JFK. LGA would've been a better airport to use for this video
love this & your style of storytelling!
Thank you Nash!
While the FAA rule-change is definitely a good start to improving transit, I doubt that its wise to suddenly consider one for JFK airport when they already have a rail link established. While a direct rail link would be nice (like the one they have in Philly or Chicago), the Airtrain has some benefits in that the loop helps connect passengers between terminals and to rental-car and long-term parking, not just the subway/LIRR. Doing so eliminates or reduces the need for buses to circulate and pick up/drop off passengers for that cohort. I agree the Airtrain should be free - or if they're going to charge people $$, charge the original $5 or lower and install OMNY at the Airtrain readers so people can tap their credit cards and reduce the long lines at Metrocard stations (which should hopefully be before 2024). If one could pay $2.75 on the subway with a free transfer to the Airtrain that would certainly be nice, but even airports like Denver or Chicago have an Airport fare zone which is a bit more expensive than your overall subway ticket since it caters to the flying population specifically. If your overall transit fares to the airport are $7.75 (subway + Airtrain), its no $2.75 but still much preferable to a $50 Uber or $65 taxi, which can be subject to traffic conditions. Current $10.75 is a bit absurd, that much I agree.
I guess a subway extension could work for LGA airport, but given how expensive it is to build anything in the Big Apple, I don't see much of a reason to do so when the MTA is already trying to plug holes into its projected budget deficit. Sure PFCs could be used by the PANYNJ but given the astronomical cost, years of construction and coordination with the beleaguered MTA, and the legal fights they'd put up with from nearby residents since its a neighborhood-adjacent airport, the extension doesn't seem worth it. A subway extension had been tried in the 1990s during Giuliani's term as mayor but was shot down by residents of Queens and local politicians, who feared noise, disruption, and a blighted view of their neighborhoods. There's no reason to think those residents would change their attitude now. Like the LGA Airtrain concept or not (and it was very much hated), there's a reason Cuomo picked it. But now that's cancelled. The current bus connections (Q70 and M60) are more than adequate in that they connect to 17 different subway lines plus LIRR/Metro-North (plus one of the buses is free now). There's definitely a trade-off to be made of just one line extending to the airport vs. a bus connecting to multiple lines for passengers' convenience, and that too for just $2.75.
In America, a tradeoff usually must be made between cost and time-savings to reach the airport. There will always be a demand for Ubers or Taxiis no matter how expensive, given that lots of people travel with lots of luggage and with large families. PANYNJ should find a way to just make the existing options to the airports cheaper and better-advertised. This is preferable to wasting billions to build a mile-long subway extension that would likely save just a few minutes. Personally speaking, given how expensive everything is in NYC, I'd much rather have a cheaper ride via public transit to the airport even if it takes a little more time than by car vs. a more expensive one.
LGA going out JFK coming back in
Taking a bus to the airport sucks. You have no idea what the traffic will be like. To all those who say the AirTrain you have no idea what the traffic will be that day. Airplanes run at specific times. I can't afford to buy another ticket because of the traffic that might occur. Going to JFK from Grand Central is a breeze but trying to get to LGA is a nightmare. What needs to be done is NYC needs to use eminent domain and get the air train back up. The cost of paying for Air Train is a heck of a lot cheaper then having to pay for a lost flight because of traffic.
Good video. For all the complaints about Airtrain it is a high quality piece of infrastructure able to accommodate demand twenty years later. It also is a great showcase for driverless metros, which are badly needed if American metros are to ever meaningfully expand (like they are in Canada). Robert Moses had the support of industry and spineless political leaders and they deserve as much blame as he does. The Van Wyck Expressway surplus space, formerly used as a landscaping buffer for the residential areas adjacent is now being converted into a continuous fourth lane (X2). MetroCards are flexible plastic.
i love the weird little train but it should ABSOLUTELY be free
Its still cheaper to take the Air Train to JFK then missing a flight paying for another flight when you take the bus to LGA.