Oh Henry I feel your pain, was thinking of taking my water pump out, its not leaking was just going to renew the bearing and seals as a precaution. Having seen your issues I'm going to leave well alone until it goes, by then hopefully you will be the new TR7 water pump guru and resolved it.👍👍😉😉
I would have done too, but I had a trickle of water coming out of my block, which I think stemmed from the two cage seals. Henry has not replaced those as he could not remove the cage (brass housing) I just hope they are sealed in well!!
@Henry's Garage don't know if you have seen this or if it will help, the only difference I can see is that he rebuilds it with the cage off the engine. Which might make sense if your cage moved when extracting the pump. ua-cam.com/video/2CIHxboTq3U/v-deo.html
Ive done a few of these..... Few hints. First of all that brass cage needs to come out, it's only held in by two O rings. I usually draw them out with a threaded rod and a washer wedged under the cage. With the cage out you can inspect the gear on the jack shaft and the lower bearing. Change the O rings on the brass cage, lubricate them and press it back into the block so it's flush. Next - press the bearing onto the shaft and fit just this back into the block - the bearing should be a TIGHT fit into the brass cage and below the top of the cage - you can see the rebate inside the brass cage that it fits into. You haven't got this bit right and it's why you are struggling. Doing it this way means you have easy access to the top of the bearing so you can tap it home. Then fit the water flinger disc - it should sit just below the top of the brass cage in the upper rebate. Then fit the seal - the carbon contact goes upwards - not the metal end. Then the impeller is fitted - the contact area must be clean and flat. The key to success with these pumps is although they come out in one lump (and that's how they are supplied if you buy a new one) you actually need to rebuild it piece by piece in the block as you build it up.
@@mattdebbage3821 That's really kind Matt. Let me try again tomorrow. I'm not sure I have large enough washers but given your description I've an idea about how to go about it. If it doesn't work again I'll let you know
Hi Henry, basically you proved where the issue was with the fitting of the improved OEM seal being perhaps the wrong way around. My feeling is that I would purchase another seal that was damaged, as it is considered an improvement etc. Fitting an old seal to a new rebuild (from an even older engine and seal design) you will probably end up with leaks upon completion, if not soon. If I were to buy that engine off of you, I would redo the pump before putting into a car, Plus, I would reface the underside mating surface of the impellor, I can't stress how critical that final mating surface is. You may end up with a dribble of water coming out of the side block orifice. Thanks for sharing.
Hi Chris, I'm trying to find someone to reface the underside at the moment. I actually have everything from the spare shaft with the 12 vane impeller, so nothing off the rebuilt shaft. And that seems to fit fine - it took a tap to get it in but it wasn't great force and seemed to be equivalent to the RimmerBros video so I reckon my issue is I did the rebuild wrong in some way. I reckon that means a completely new kit rather than just the seal
@@HenrysGarage That sounds a plan. The unfortunate damage to the jack shaft mating gear of the water pump might be the issue of stopping it fully seating, lets hope the jack shaft tempering is harder than the water pump!! All this pain you are experiencing is good for people wanting to do it themselves, as i see it has already fended one person to stop in their tracks, forewarned if fore armed eh! These videos are valuable to watch & chronicle so massive thanks.
@@HenrysGarage Also the refacing, it only requires a few thou off, an engineering company did for me in a minute and didn't bother to charge me for it, was so little effort, but to me it was my whole world at the time lol.
@@ChrisFEJackson Well I hope the company I've been using is as helpful. They're umming and arring about whether it will fit in their machines - I've had to send photos. But they did a good job on the head so I'm hopeful
Hey Henry, don’t forget to add the 2 D shaped bungs to the cam cover before screwing it on - it’s easy done to forget them ( speaking as someone who may have done that in the past you understand 😉).
I keep seeing those holes and reminding myself I need to put in the runners, but then decide to leave it as the cover is coming off again and I don’t want to lose them in my chaotic garage
Hi Henry, do you have a copy of the factory parts catalogue. These are invaluable for working out what goes where and in which is order they are assembled.
Hi Henry, I feel your pain here.. Very frustrating. I've had another look in the BL manual. There is a small section which explains water pump reconditioning. Towards the end of the chapter it states "Replace the oil seal, spring uppermost, water flinger downwards and tap gently into position. NOTE if unnecessary force is used, water flinger will spread and foul pump" Looking at your pump spindle when it was extracted it looks like this may have happened. In this section it does show all of the components (including the large brass casing) assembled before installing in the block. BTW I think you were going the wrong way when working out your gasket thickness. You need clearance inside the housing so ADD the clearance to your measured 'cap to block' dimension. So where you have measured a 54 thou gap, you need to add 10-25 thou to get the required gasket thickness, so in this case the gasket would be 64-79 thou.... Hope this makes sense? The manual does say add gasket(s) to achieve the required thickness, which implies it would be normal to have more than one. Hope this helps... Keep up the good work.
Thanks Carsten, but I cannot see the spring within the oil seal because it was (until I broke it) a sealed unit. Certainly with the 'spare' shaft I didn't hit it hard. Previously I had used too much force. I could really feel the difference. And thanks for the heads up on the gaskets. I think I'm having a few days off the water pump to get some balance back. It is really frustrating me
Hi Wayne, I hadn't even thought of using the slide hammer to get it back in. Both Haynes and BL manuals say tap into place. I've come to the conclusion I made a mistake in the water pump refurb so that it isn't sitting properly any longer - perhaps pushed the bearing down too far? (seems unlikely) or something like that preventing it from going all the way down. I think the old other shaft with the 12 vane impeller should be good. I'll have to sort the other shaft for the other engine when I get to it
That sounds like a bad idea to me. The workshop manual states" Caution, the use of force or impact to seat the pump will damage the pump and graphite seal." There is something stopping the pump shaft from going in as easily it should. You need to check the fit of the individual components. I suspect there is a build up on one of the bores that needs cleaning out to allow a tight hand push fit.
Another critical point is the covers are different shapes according to the impeller, there's several variations. you can't fit a 6 vane cover to a 12 vane pump for example...
Oh Henry I feel your pain, was thinking of taking my water pump out, its not leaking was just going to renew the bearing and seals as a precaution. Having seen your issues I'm going to leave well alone until it goes, by then hopefully you will be the new TR7 water pump guru and resolved it.👍👍😉😉
I would have done too, but I had a trickle of water coming out of my block, which I think stemmed from the two cage seals. Henry has not replaced those as he could not remove the cage (brass housing) I just hope they are sealed in well!!
Me too!
What an engine! Between getting the head off and getting the wp in it could break a man's heart... I think I want one!
Oh Anthony, I'm finding it hard to motivate myself to get myself out there at the moment - this water pump is really getting to me
@Henry's Garage don't know if you have seen this or if it will help, the only difference I can see is that he rebuilds it with the cage off the engine. Which might make sense if your cage moved when extracting the pump. ua-cam.com/video/2CIHxboTq3U/v-deo.html
@@HenrysGarage ... nothing else it clearly shows which way up the complaints should be.
@@anthonygowland8363 Thanks Anthony, I have seen this but I've also been unable to shift the cage so I decided to leave it in place
@@anthonygowland8363 Huh?
Ive done a few of these..... Few hints. First of all that brass cage needs to come out, it's only held in by two O rings. I usually draw them out with a threaded rod and a washer wedged under the cage. With the cage out you can inspect the gear on the jack shaft and the lower bearing. Change the O rings on the brass cage, lubricate them and press it back into the block so it's flush. Next - press the bearing onto the shaft and fit just this back into the block - the bearing should be a TIGHT fit into the brass cage and below the top of the cage - you can see the rebate inside the brass cage that it fits into. You haven't got this bit right and it's why you are struggling. Doing it this way means you have easy access to the top of the bearing so you can tap it home. Then fit the water flinger disc - it should sit just below the top of the brass cage in the upper rebate. Then fit the seal - the carbon contact goes upwards - not the metal end. Then the impeller is fitted - the contact area must be clean and flat. The key to success with these pumps is although they come out in one lump (and that's how they are supplied if you buy a new one) you actually need to rebuild it piece by piece in the block as you build it up.
Thanks Matt, I couldn't get the cage to budge when I tried, but I'll give it another go
@@HenrysGarage i have a tool I made up to do it, if you are in the UK I can post it to you - but it's fairly crude.
@@mattdebbage3821 That's really kind Matt. Let me try again tomorrow. I'm not sure I have large enough washers but given your description I've an idea about how to go about it. If it doesn't work again I'll let you know
@@mattdebbage3821 Hi Matt, if the offer is still available, I would like to try your tool. I tried one myself today but it didn't work
Hi Henry, basically you proved where the issue was with the fitting of the improved OEM seal being perhaps the wrong way around. My feeling is that I would purchase another seal that was damaged, as it is considered an improvement etc. Fitting an old seal to a new rebuild (from an even older engine and seal design) you will probably end up with leaks upon completion, if not soon. If I were to buy that engine off of you, I would redo the pump before putting into a car, Plus, I would reface the underside mating surface of the impellor, I can't stress how critical that final mating surface is. You may end up with a dribble of water coming out of the side block orifice. Thanks for sharing.
Hi Chris, I'm trying to find someone to reface the underside at the moment. I actually have everything from the spare shaft with the 12 vane impeller, so nothing off the rebuilt shaft. And that seems to fit fine - it took a tap to get it in but it wasn't great force and seemed to be equivalent to the RimmerBros video so I reckon my issue is I did the rebuild wrong in some way. I reckon that means a completely new kit rather than just the seal
@@HenrysGarage That sounds a plan. The unfortunate damage to the jack shaft mating gear of the water pump might be the issue of stopping it fully seating, lets hope the jack shaft tempering is harder than the water pump!! All this pain you are experiencing is good for people wanting to do it themselves, as i see it has already fended one person to stop in their tracks, forewarned if fore armed eh! These videos are valuable to watch & chronicle so massive thanks.
@@HenrysGarage Also the refacing, it only requires a few thou off, an engineering company did for me in a minute and didn't bother to charge me for it, was so little effort, but to me it was my whole world at the time lol.
@@ChrisFEJackson Well I hope the company I've been using is as helpful. They're umming and arring about whether it will fit in their machines - I've had to send photos. But they did a good job on the head so I'm hopeful
@@HenrysGarage Blimey all they have to do is fit the impellor collar into the grips!!
Hey Henry, don’t forget to add the 2 D shaped bungs to the cam cover before screwing it on - it’s easy done to forget them ( speaking as someone who may have done that in the past you understand 😉).
I keep seeing those holes and reminding myself I need to put in the runners, but then decide to leave it as the cover is coming off again and I don’t want to lose them in my chaotic garage
Hi Henry, do you have a copy of the factory parts catalogue. These are invaluable for working out what goes where and in which is order they are assembled.
Hi Andy, I don't have a parts catalogue I'm afraid - I'll have to search one out
Hi Henry, I feel your pain here.. Very frustrating.
I've had another look in the BL manual. There is a small section which explains water pump reconditioning. Towards the end of the chapter it states "Replace the oil seal, spring uppermost, water flinger downwards and tap gently into position. NOTE if unnecessary force is used, water flinger will spread and foul pump"
Looking at your pump spindle when it was extracted it looks like this may have happened. In this section it does show all of the components (including the large brass casing) assembled before installing in the block.
BTW I think you were going the wrong way when working out your gasket thickness. You need clearance inside the housing so ADD the clearance to your measured 'cap to block' dimension.
So where you have measured a 54 thou gap, you need to add 10-25 thou to get the required gasket thickness, so in this case the gasket would be 64-79 thou.... Hope this makes sense?
The manual does say add gasket(s) to achieve the required thickness, which implies it would be normal to have more than one.
Hope this helps... Keep up the good work.
Thanks Carsten, but I cannot see the spring within the oil seal because it was (until I broke it) a sealed unit. Certainly with the 'spare' shaft I didn't hit it hard. Previously I had used too much force. I could really feel the difference.
And thanks for the heads up on the gaskets. I think I'm having a few days off the water pump to get some balance back. It is really frustrating me
Hi Henry, could you not fit the water pump using the slide hammer? Have you got a Haynes manual? What oes that sa to do?
Hi Wayne, I hadn't even thought of using the slide hammer to get it back in. Both Haynes and BL manuals say tap into place. I've come to the conclusion I made a mistake in the water pump refurb so that it isn't sitting properly any longer - perhaps pushed the bearing down too far? (seems unlikely) or something like that preventing it from going all the way down. I think the old other shaft with the 12 vane impeller should be good. I'll have to sort the other shaft for the other engine when I get to it
That sounds like a bad idea to me. The workshop manual states" Caution, the use of force or impact to seat the pump will damage the pump and graphite seal." There is something stopping the pump shaft from going in as easily it should. You need to check the fit of the individual components. I suspect there is a build up on one of the bores that needs cleaning out to allow a tight hand push fit.
Another critical point is the covers are different shapes according to the impeller, there's several variations. you can't fit a 6 vane cover to a 12 vane pump for example...
@@mattdebbage3821 Very true Matt, I worked that out in one of the previous episodes. The difference is quite obvious when you have them side by side