Checking flow rate is easy. Just time how long it takes to fill a container. So if it fills a gallon container in one minute, then it's a gallon a minute. The test you showed today was what I was asking about yesterday. I need to see if the pump can build pressure and not bypass internally because of excessive clearances. And it did. Thanks for the great videos.
Boy, were you WAY ahead of me. 😊 2 1/2 gallons per minute = 10 quarts per minute = 10 quarts every 60 seconds = 1 quart every 6 seconds. You're flowing pretty close to that. Good enough for what you need. Just have to make sure nothing is broken or leaking as you continue your inspection. Thanks for the video John
Adam you can "bucket check" the flow of the pump by putting a known quantity of fluid in a bucket with the suction and timing how long it takes to discharge it with the pressure relief valve in place. For instance if it's supposed to flow 2.5 gallons per minute at 200 psi then time how long it takes to pull 5 gallons down. If it's faster than 2 minutes your flow rate is fine. If it's slower then it may not be moving enough fluid to properly operate the machine. My two cents anyways. We used Coriolis flow meters on our equipment at my work and when we calibrated them that's how we tested to be sure they were actually pumping at the correct rate.
Michael Roberts You are right on. That's what it is all about. It is just a fluid pump that conveys flow to an actuator: whether it be a cylinder/ram or a rotory device. Don't know what the focus upon pressure is. All it does is spin some wheel to actuate the x-y-z axii. Ain't lifitng a house. I believe there is some leak somewhere in the circuits. I bet it is one of the actuator housing assemblies that worked loose. But, we will seee.
WAVETUBE84 You may or may not remember I wasn't getting any pressure at my test gauge, which is directly out of the pump. Doing all this bench testing it seems to work fine. No pressure at the test point indicates something was wrong.
WAVETUBE84 It's not spinning some wheel, It's expanding a closed system plate style clutch.Based on the video he emptied a gallon bucket in less than 10 sec. Just looking at what was coming out of his tubes, Adam has plenty of flow. Gentlemen, I suggest that this is not rocket science.With all do respect, Cliff
Very curious about what is causing the problem, now you proved that the working pressure is good. It is turning into a good investigating series like this! Cheers.
I know that this video has been up for quite some time but I wanted to kick in something. When you don't have a flow meter, you can run the pump for 15 seconds. pour the fluid into a measuring cup and measure how much was pumped out. Multiply by 4 and you will have your flow per minute; convert volume to flow rate. Love the videos.
Plenty of comments covered the flow rate testing. As for the pressure bleed from the scored poppet, IMO it is inconsequential to the operation. You need only maintain pressure while the pump (and mill) is running. Hydraulic fluid (oil) is not compressible, so even minute leaks will remove the pressure quickly once the pump stops. I have had many tractors, when they are new you can raise an implement and it stays up. As they wear, the implement will drop to the ground overnight, from small leaks in the valves. But the tractor is far from needing repair because of that.
Adam, please remember that just because your spindle is going the right way, the pump / feed motor may not be. These are two separate motors and sometimes the wires can get changed around on the contactors in the control panel by someone who may not be too sure of what they are doing. Please be sure to double check both motors when going back together. Just because one motor rotation is right, it doesn't mean both motors are. Very good test this time, using the constant flow of the actual machine pump. All the best, Cliff
great test. next step, map the flow paths and ways to isolate each for testing. through casing and block flow ports can be places trash and silicone sealant contaminates into the system at the time of the repair. valves can stick closed.
Nice test Adam, I really like seeing folks using what they have available to do what they need to do, like making your own plugs, running pump w/ drill etc. A lot can be done with what's on hand when people with your skills, knowledge and 'stick-to-it-iveness' are involved. Looking forward to the next one.
I immensely enjoy watching your vids Adam, especially the special series like this and the welding table. Every time you put a video out there i put up my feet, grab a coffee and live it up. You have mastered the fine art of making both educational and enjoyable videos, and I (and many more, I'm sure) really appreciate and acknowledge the hard work and thought you obviously put into making them. Keep on doing what you're doing! Trond
Hi Adam, you can measure the flow rate simply by filling up a known volume and taking the time needed with a stop watch. My compliments for this interesting series. Greetings from the Alps. Benno
Hi Adam I look forward to your video weekly, thank you for inspiring us all. In part 2 of sns 80 around 5:15 your friend explains the failure to be the poppet not holding the sysyem pressure in the relief body. He explains the spring rate is fine because it relieves at 250psi but the valve is not holding. In this video you also mention the pump is not holding at the seal. It might be something to ask your friend if the leak by at the pump was caused by a possible failed seal or if leak by is normal. In my experience with hydraulics a system pump feed line is normally kept at pressure so I would still consider your first thought of a failed relief to be your issue because it is not holding 250 psi statically at the poppet.
Tim Cho As slowly as the pressure bled off, I seriously doubt that has anything to do with the problem. That test was with a manual/stroke pump moving VERY little fluid. Were talking like a couple tablespoons of fluid/min on a system pumping 2.5 gal/min. Unless I completely misunderstood the flow of this system, that poppet is designed to open/leak/bypass and hence regulate whenever system is running and the flow to the hydraulic components and lube outlets is less than pump output so bleed back should never come into play when the system is running. But I don't know this particular machine and could be completely wrong.
Those components would pass inspection in my mind, but I'm definitely not an expert. It is interesting to watch the diagnostic methods that have to be used to eliminate suspect components. Good luck in the hunt.
I see some negativity on the New Music, but I thought it fell in line real well with the different segments of the video, I liked it, hope You find your source of the problem with the hydraulics, enjoyed Adam
Hi mate. After looking at the video, I think your fine with the pump and valve. I just reminded myself that the system does not need the maximum pressure, it can just go up to that pressure. The whole thing might be working at a far lesser pressure than the maximum. As you stated you found some rotten O rings, and that might be it. If what it's supposed to drive is ok, than you can't go wrong. Well done mate. It's good to see how many people want to help, how lucky is that....
I have been following your progress on this project. i suspect that the suction hose was collapsing, and think you are right about replacing it with a steel pipe. the pump is looking good and the pressure valve.
That looked pretty good, Adam. Time to go on to the suction line. Make sure it has an adequate ID to achieve the flow rate. It would be best to determine what K&T used originally for a suction line. The suction side also needs to be totally air tight, but you know that...
Abom79 I guess the only other thing I can think of is a big leak in the system somewhere, like a missing plug, blown oring, or something else that is letting your oil leak back to the sump, which keeps it from building pressure.
I don't have anything to suggest that others have not already covered as well. I think the problem was the hose from watching your tests. I would like to see the pressure relief valve unload at the correct pressure and return consistently before reassembly. JMO , thanks for the video and good luck. Richard
Adam, I've worked on a lot of military hydraulics, but no machines like this mill. The vast majority of my experience is with a sealed system that runs 35gpm at 3000 psi. Mostly hydraulic motors, though I have some experience with rams. What I can tell you is that there is no minor dripping leak here. This is a major blown seal, o-ring or gland in either a valve body, shaft seal, or perhaps a clutch or a split, detached, or unseated line or hose. What I'm getting at is that it's a BIG leak. In this instance, a 2 plus gallon/min leak. Sorry I don't know the workings of this particular system, This one's obviously more difficult to trace since the leak dumps back into the sump. My recommendation is to orient the assembly as it sits in the machine over a large drip pan with jumper hoses on anything you can't have attached in this position and repeat the test you just did here with oil if possible and look for the biggest hemorrhage. At only 225 psi, it'll be a doozy to keep it from getting to and maintaining working pressure. FWIW, you can check the flow rate without a meter by simply timing how long it takes to pump a gallon or quart and doing the math, though it's pretty clear the that the pump and relief/bypass assembly are likely well within reasonable tolerance. Be careful testing with air as it is compressible and stores energy. If a seal pops under oil pressure is just starts leaking or moves at a relatively slow rate. If something that's normally held captive when assembled blows out under air pressure, it could send parts flying at a high rate of speed. Good luck with the troubleshooting.
Just wanted to throw this out here, thank you for your videos man. I know I dont comment often, and normally not on time, but i enjoy watching what and how you do what you do. Keep up the good work brother :)
I'm thinking it was that suction line collapsing. That crimped rubber line looks custom. Like you said in a previous video, those lines aren't meant for suction. I worked on an old John Deere that wasn't building oil pressure. Had the pump machined back to spec by a machinist buddy of mine. Wound up finding a piece of duct tape blocking the suction tube. Now builds plenty of pressure for a 90 year old tractor.
Abom79 Remember the pump only provides flow. Resistance provides pressure. If you did todays test with one or both of your plugs removed most likely the relief valve would not have opened and system pressure would have been zero or very low. Somewhere in the system resistance was lost (bad O-rings) and that would explain the low pressure on your system pressure gauge. It doesn't matter that the gauge comes directly off the pump, the pump only provides flow. Something in the system, like clutches and motors (hydraulic) provide resistance. Find the leak now that you know the pump provides flow.
Adam, The original black suction line looks more like a pressure line to me. Maybe it was collapsing and thus causing a restriction? Your test set up looks fine! Do an "empty the bucket times test" next for flow rate. It will be plenty close to verify flow rate. All the best and thanks for posting! Eric
Hi Adam, discovered your site by accident, now I'm hooked! Love the whole bag you deliver and I have watched many vids 2 or 3 times but just saying like: you have picked up a lot of subscribers so far without music so please keep it simple and leave it out during the live machine work. Musical taste is a fairly personal thing, one person's enjoyment can be like fingernails on a blackboard to another, Best wishes to you and family from snowy Tasmania.
Hi Adam, Good test, I agree with Matt Wilkins, your relieving at the proper pressure so I would be looking at the component's on the 2 other branches of the circuit. And the suction line. Working on hydraulic systems daily, I can tell you it doesn't take a very big leak to lose 2 1/2 gpm . Would it be possible to install the pump and relief valve, and run the pump. You can run the relief into a bucket instead of on the gears. Set the whole gearbox in a pan, run it a few secounds, and see if you still get 250psi at relief. Or it may not bypass at all. If not, try to see where the oil is coming out. If you get bypass at the relief, you should be OK. I don't know if this would be feasible for you, but I think it would tell you alot.
Adam, I think you're good to go. The pump and pressure relief valve appear to be performing within their parameters. In a perfect world with a flow meter and knowing your GPM you could be more exact, but for what you have proven with your test it's good to go IMHO. I would not be too concerned with audience critique, but it's all well meaning ;-). Best, Jeff
You're probably on the right track in thinking the problem is with the intake hose that you're replacing with a hard line. It sure can't hurt. Thanks for the video, although I'm not a big musical interlude fan, ask Stan....lol.
Nice "quick and dirty" job on the plugs! Good test Adam....From the amount of oil in the bucket, it seemed as if the volume was close to being correct. I too agree that things are looking good as far as the relief valve and pump are concerned.Maybe by removing and cleaning the relief valve, it took care of it. I seem to recall a couple of misc items you had found, so maybe it will work fine when you get it back together. Hang in there with you chin up! Jim
I don't have anything to suggest that others have not already covered. It looks like you are on the right track. I guess my big question is why is the relief valve working on your test there but failing when you did the test with the hand pump? What has changed between then and now? Looking for a smoking gun I guess.....
Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org That was my thought Keith. Is there not supposed to be a check valve at or near the relief valve, to prevent backflow and maintain operating pressure on the output side?
Rain Coast in the test with portapower you were just running the pressure up to pop off the relief, with the pump you are continuously pumping oil into it. Could the overall problem be like the oiling system in an engine when the bearings get so loose, and their clearances so wide that the volume of the pump is not enough to bring the pressure up to the relief setting. Like if you took one of your "test plugs" out. something in the business end of the machine is dumping so much oil that the (OK) pump cant keep up. Dave
I'm still thinkin it's the suction hose. I've seen and had my share of them even fuel lines deteriorate and cause blockages. It sucks that it's a pain in the ass to put it back together to see if it works so I understand why you're looking at every little thing. Good luck! Challenges are always fun but it's even more fun to solve them quickly.
Gee Dubb Yep, it's a job, especially after you have it all filled with oil. Hoping to find anything wrong i can and correct it before we slide it back together.
Hey Adam, you are going to be working on this project 24/7 right ? we wont have to wait until next week for the solution. Being completely retired, I check my emails for updates hourly. I love the input from the other viewers. If I had a clue what you were doing, I might even make a suggestion. Sure have learned a lot just watching this. best of luck...Ken ...Marina CA
About your rpm's with the portable drills: you could get an stroboscope app for your cellphone and set it to 980/min / 60 = 16.3Hz. Tape something white on your chuck, shine your phone's led at it and slowly speed up your drill. When the white thing appears to stop moving at your 16.3Hz light, you've hit 980rpm
Did a little analysis on the audio and I calculated something around 600-900rpm for the run at 10:50. Hard to tell from the spectrum, but you're definitely in the ballpark.
Quite fascinating progress. Adam, have you considered any drive issues to the pump? Is the drive rotating at the correct speed? Can you be sure that the motor is rotating in the correct direction? Can you be sure of the connection between the motor and the shaft on the pump is not slipping and there is a positive drive? As for the speed of the drill your using I think you have one of those Starrett speed measuring tools with a rubber tip on the nose of it? -Trap the drill in a vice and clamp the on / off switch wide open, put the speed measuring tool up to a nearly closed chuck for 60seconds = reasonable speed check of the drill (under no load of course!) I do wonder about the suction hose and filter combined causing starvation of oil to the pump. The hydraulic pipe is in really poor condition and the mesh seems very fine indeed - perhaps not a total blockage but a likely restriction?
Hey just a thought for in the future you don't need a flow meter. Just take a specified volume and time how long it takes to pump it then you could just convert oz/sec to gal/min. It is a little crude but it will get you in the ballpark.
Suggestion for your test: If you have a lathe that is variable speed use it to drive your pump. You can use a hand held tachometer to check spindle speed and get the proper RPM before chucking the pump up. Then attach a hose to the outlet of the relief valve and into a container of known volume, perhaps a half gallon. With all things set up start the lathe and time for 30 seconds. Do a little math and you have the GPM at the proper flow and RPM. This test should give you a pretty close approximation of proper running conditions. If you have enough oil and a large enough container you could run the pump longer and get a more accurate reading.
bcbloc02 Yes i have Brian, I was air checking them since day one of inspecting. I showed some of the clutch today on video, and put it all back together. The clutches look good, and seems to work just like it supposed to.
Abom79 bcbloc02 Looking good Adam. I am hoping you licked it by replacing that suction hose and cleaning the filter. Watching the flow on your initial test I'd say you were right at or a little short of your 2 gpm, this is before you sped it up. Of course once you hook it all back up those other plugs will not be blocked and the pump will have a harder time building pressure, have to wait and see. Can't wait to see the old girl back in action.
Abom79 Thanks for showing such interesting diagnostics Adam. I was thinking about the ports in the castings being blocked with gasket goo and I guess you were concerned about that as well. At least now you are fairly certain that the mechanism in the knee is capable of pumping an adequate flow to work the relief valve.
Looks like you have good flow and pressure. The kinked suction line could have sucked shut, but before you put it all back together, you might want to check where that hydraulic oil is used, to make sure there isn't some leaking valve that is killing all your pressure. You could do that with just a hand pump. It looks like you are going along step by step and you will sort this out. I get the feeling from your comments that you are getting a little tired of all the armchair mechanics, like myself, ;) , asking the same questions or pointing out the same minutiae. I guess that just comes with the territory of putting this stuff up on UA-cam. Good luck and keep up the great work.
Good test. As others have said, you could calculate quarts per second, say 15 seconds. Drill motor RPM specs used to be available online from Dewalt. But when Black & Decker bought the company, they were no longer published. None are made in the U.S. or Canada anymore. You could do it the old fashion way and use a strobe light, marker and.... Ah forget it...
Doug Hanchard the drill sayd it does 1200rpm at the middle setting, but under load of course less, but it sounded about the 800-900 rmp mark, close enough and you could see it pumped easily even at low rpm, i think its close enough to call the 2.5 gallons per min just fine, the main fault was probably the bad pick up line bodge (not reaching the oil too?) and the possible low oil level, it will soon be ready to put this together, im sure it will work, remember he had zero pressure on his original fault, and its obviously capable of the 250lbs, so it was a total lack of oil either in or going out somewhere huge, most likely now it was the input, hope his new oilline will be a bit longer than the old one!
Doug Hanchard I did several tests off camera and made an educated guess that it was pumping enough. That black bucket is one gallon and I emptied it a few times pretty quickly.
Adam,What do the two plugged ports normally hook up to? If you're not developing any back pressure(IE:free-flow) at those points,which indicates they're getting lots of oil,you may never build up enough back pressure to activate the relief, which is normally in a system like this to prevent blowing up the pump or some other component..This system is for lubing some shaft(s) is it not? Do they drain back to tank? It's not like and enclosed system with cylinders or such. Or maybe I'm missing something.
An afterthought hit me reference this system pulling double duty as a lubrication system. I would be looking for what controls the flow of that lubrication, be it another bypass valve, metered orifices, or just designed flow/leakage tolerances. If it was a restrictor that didn't get put back, that could surely let a LOT more fluid through than the pump could supply. What about those passages in the casting? Could a gasket on the mating surfaces have failed?
A flow meter is a bucket and a stopwatch. If you had a bit over 5 gal of oil and a 5 gal bucket, and could fill it in 2 minutes at around 850-860 RPM you would know that it is making the right volume and doesn't have too much bypass leakage. The trick would be running it at the right speed for that long. If the bypass leakage is minimal then the flow rate to RPM should be about linear. It sounded like you were around 100 RPM on that first test. At that speed you would pump about 0.3 gal per minute to be on spec. That drill motor might hold up for 3 minutes at that speed, and should give you around 0.9 gallon in 1 minute. Considering the variable speed, I'd call anything over 2/3 gallon good.
Adam, I agree that it looks like the pump is not the problem, I was wondering (unless I missed it somewhere) that when you had the relief valve at work the poppet was not holding. What did you end up doing to fix that?
I agree with your conclusions that you confirmed that the pump and regulator are both working properly. I thought about suggesting you time how long it takes to pump a gallon of oil through it at the specified RPM (should be 24seconds). But the fact that you got good pressure and the amount of flow you had in your previous video tells me that the problem is most likely something else. I believe You said that the pressure gauge on the mill only read around 10PSI. Since you know the pump and pressure regulator are both working. That makes me wonder if the intake line was pinched off or clogged from the inside delaminating as you suspected. I figure it had to be that or a leak between the pump and regulator, regulator stuck open, weak or improper motor, or the coupling between the pump and motor slipping, filter clogged, not enough oil in sump, or that the pressure gauge on the mill was wrong. I may have missed a few things. If it isn't a big deal to slide everything back together, I'd be tempted to make a proper intake line, and put it back together. Chris
[continued]. (Don't know why it cut off early) If it isn't a big deal to slide back together, I'd be tempted to try putting it back together with a proper intake line. Any chance the hose was bending and holding the intake above the oil. Chris
Adam, I'm no hydraulics professional or anything, but couldn't you get an estimate for the flow rate by running the pump for a given amount of time (say 10 seconds), checking how much oil passed through it (measuring using a standard, 1 liter bottle) and then, if need be, multiply accordingly? Sure, it won't be as exact as a dedicate flow meter, but seems like a cheap, quick and quite precise fix to get an estimate for your rate of flow. Edit: Just saw someone else already suggested that here in the comment section. Neglect my comment. Thanks for sharing, Adam! :)
Good video Adam I reckon you are ontrack with the collapsing pickup hose. Sorry but don't like the music that's crept into the background during the machining and speech. Thanks for sharing. regards from the UK
Gary C I like to try different things, and todays machining of the plugs I wanted to bust through pretty fast and not spend a bunch of time explaining each step. Personally I like the background music....sometimes. Thanks for your input though.
Looks good, as the others have said you can do a simple bucket check... wonder if you would be better to turn the pump with the lathe, synchronous motor and you'll better know the rpm. Not being a hydraulic expert I reckon that is looking like more than enough flow bearing in mind the rpm you are hitting. Great video series, enjoy them a great deal.
I can understand that! I think it looks fit and healthy.... the issues with the relief valve seem to be fixed now. Like the pace of your videos and I am always learning something. Best wishes from the UK
Hi Adam: It would be ideal if you could access test parameters for that hydraulic system which I'm sure somebody must have. Timing a known amount of oil, will give you flow rate. Besides oil flow capacity, you need to know rpm range for testing the pump.Those machines are common and popular enough to make the required info available in the machining community. Send a request for it. Regards Jorge
Jorge Scordamaglia I suspect that if Adam asks around, there's a test rig or three floating around Pensacola... Navy surplus if nothing else... Or, at a shop that does hydraulics for things like bulldozers and other mobile equipment... Wouldn't it be neat if someone associated with the Blue Angels / NAS Pensacola offered to host Adam for a full-up test & adjust of the pump and PRV? Cheers, Eric
No need for a flow meter. You can measure GPM over a fraction of a minute by measuring how much it pumps in 30, 20, 15 or 10 seconds and multiplying by 2, 3, 4 or 6. If it does 2 quarts (1/2 gal) in 1/5 of a minute (12 seconds), it is making the specified 2.5 GPM. Even simpler: with a little bit of math, you can calculate the specified volume per revolution (2.5 gallons divided by 859 revolutions I think it was?). Then you can use one of those Starrett RPM gauges that actually counts revolutions (I think you have one) and it won't matter if you can easily set an exact RPM on the drill motor. I think the pump will run at the specified RPM due to the internal gearing, so if it will pump the proper amount per revolution at some speed even close to operating speed, it will pump as specified when installed.
Ok so it has good PSi and good flow So did you fix something I missed Or dose it seem to work with no changes but not when it is in the machine All,hooked up?? This should work the PSI is to speck and good,flow
Good test. I'm not so worried about flow. Looks like you have it. I'm wondering where the two lines go that you had to plug. If either of them are wide open then the other two wont get flow or pressure. Unless of course there is something that I don't know about the system. Such as other regulators in the system. If I remember correctly you did some air testing with all three?
Kelly Breckenridge Practical fluid mechanics like this ain't so bad... *theoretical* fluid mechanics where you have to do the differential equations - which are mostly meaningless in real world applications! - is akin to quantum mechanics... I'm glad that I passed the damned classes - and have absolutely *NO* desire to ever subject myself to that kind of pain ever again... ;^) Eric
Hey Adam just a thought have you checked your pickup line for cracks? That pump and relief are working a treat! Oh and if you wanna test flow you can time how long it takes to empty that little 1 gal bucket you have, just a second thought. Awsome vids, keep up the good work.
have you tried to simulate a load on the working side (ie.. hydro cylinder) of the relief valve? the flow looks good but if the part that needs the pressure is not getting enough then it will operate poorly.
Take it easy Adam. The problem is further down the line. Maybe, but i do not know... another dude mentioned the clutches that engage the drives??? Don't know if the even exist. but definitely reasonable. Be a hoot if that's the gig and all of this hyd. troubleshooting is a goose chase. Gota get Tom to "step on the mat"! Show what he knows.... get some rubber on the road. .......Yeah, Tom went outside and stomped some weeds when he saw that mini-Wilton vise on that sweet gymbol.
WAVETUBE84 Back to when he first put a gauge on the testing point he had zero pressure, and that was right after the pump, I think it was the pick up tube that was the fault, im sure he has put some air onto the other parts to see if they hold up and move. Yeah who isn't green with envy over that wilton vise! never seen one in the UK but our 'Record' brand vices which are no longer made are i guess our equivalent and now treated with respect as they are irreplaceable now
jusb1066 Yeah, he could use a stop watch and a known amount of hyd. fluid, and extrapolate the GPMs. He would need to have a separate catch pan for the P/R discharge, to be a little more exact. But, It looks like everything is fine with the pump. Even at the designed operating pressure, it looks like it is doing it's job.
Hi Adam ! Flowmeter .... couldn't you just start the dril motor and just measure how much oil you pump pr. miniute ... OK, you don't knoe the RPM's but you could get an idea of how much, I think.
Abom79 Inline flow meters are nice, but a bit pricey for pressure rated units... I use a cheaper type called a Rotameter - variable area, and the float is pushed up against gravity, so it needs to be vertical - at work for air and water... you need to be able to see the float. I get them from McMaster-Carr for $50 to $60 each... but, they're not rated for 300 psig, nor for hydraulic fluid So, you are left with a fallback of using a stopwatch and a marked bucket, and doing a little math if you want to do this on a budget... Even big engineering companies and oil refineries do this, if only to calibrate flowmeters... Your options for getting a known rpm drive are also a bit limited, especially on a budget... DC motors and controllers are out there, but who wants to spend the $$$ for a one-time project, for a *nice-to-have* kind of deal... it'd be different if you already had the drive sitting on a shelf collecting dust. Long story short - Your rig has shown that the pump moves fluid, and delivers good pressure - I'd worry about other issues now. Eric
Hey Adam, you're probably thinking what the hell is a chef doing commenting on my videos. As I mentioned earlier I started life as a Machinist tool and die maker.Then built custom machinery from scratch for over 20 years. I was heavily into PLC's, hydraulics and pneumatics. I have also been a master Electrician which is what I am doing now. The Chef thing is just a hobby. Anyway what I would do is plug the output of the pump and see if you are dumping over the relief valve at the required setting. You could also set it while you're at it.
Abom79 I didn't notice you restricting the flow on the output side of the pump and dumping over the relief valve above the working pressure. Just a thought.
Instead of using a flow meter, you can get a quick and dirty idea of flow with a stopwatch. Just time how long it takes to move a known amount of fluid at the needed RPM. If you need to move 2.5 gal/min, it should take 24 seconds to move 1 gal.
Adam, I left a comment on SNS 80 pt. 1 a few days ago but I know you are very busy so I figured you probably didn't see it. I was wondering what the little saw you used to cut stock was? It was around the 16:00 point in SNS 80 part 1.
I think your talking about my Johnson power jack saw. 👍😎 It was a Craigslist find my dad found for me a few years ago. It's great for small and quick cutting needs.
For your flow rate. Pump 1 gallon of oil with your pump at the prescribed RPM from one bucket to another and see how long it takes. Then do the math to see how many gallons per minute you are pumping.
Your right, this is the quick and dirty way of doing it! You actually don't have to do for specific time, you can take a measures amount if oil and figure out how long it took to pump it and extrapolate flow rate from that!
there is no one way valve in the pump correct? If not it is not possible for it to hold pressure in static state not pumping. So it is pumping pressure, now check for volume, open one of your plugs put a hose on it and see if the gauge still comes up to pressure while feeding fluid back into your oil bucket with one open line. No volume no work. We have the same issue with fuel pumps on cars you can have pressure but if the pump is weak it might not have the volume to actually keep up with demand.
Measuring the flow is only relevant in a variable displacement system. Yours is a fixed displacement pump running at a fixed rpm. Knowing its flow is of theoretical use only. The facts are that you now know the pump is capable of making relief pressure and the relief valve is capable of holding the pressure. Except did you not say relief pressure was supposed to be 350psi? Anyway, you're getting more than the 10psi you had on the machine. It's now fairly clear that you have leakage downstream somewhere. A leaking line or valve or clutch pack. It should be fairly easy to track down by pressurising the system with compressed air.
Hi Adam, I've watched your vids for a long time and I really like your style and enjoy them alot. But I have to put in a little complaint this time, I hope that you're not gona make a habit of playing backround music during machining, and even worse, when you're talking, I've had enough of that from regular tv show, which is also one of the major reason I rarely watch that anymore.
dunkelheit843 Yes indeed, the music is a bit much. I watch a lot of Forensic Files and their music is louder than the people talking. Other than that the content is great. Can hardly wait to see why it doesn't work properly.
The relief valve is working, the cheek plates are leaking.....too much wear. 200 psig x 2.5 gpm; the pump is consuming ~ 0.5 hp (375watts) !! yep it should be smok'in. :) [ 1 hp approx. 1500 psig at 1 gpm] rule of thumb In older systems, like yours, the first thing you see with worn plates is a fall in flow and the machine slows down. (usually in fast motions like "Rapid Traverse". slower operations, not so much. The test shows its making pressure, but the leak-down cant be seen inside an oil filled crankcase. the next step people do is raise the RV pressure, but since flow only rises a little with resect to pressure, they say its failed. You can measure flow by using a small Scale. (like a digital food scale) www.target.com/p/taylor-digital-food-scale/-/A-11011109?ref=tgt_adv_XSB10002&AFID=bing_pa_df&LNM=11011109&CPNG=Kitchen&kpid=11011109&LID=26pbs&ci_src=328768002&ci_sku=11011109&ref=tgt_adv_XS000000&AFID=msn&CPNG=pla_new_kitchen&adgroup=pla+kitchenware&LNM={Keyword}&MT=broad&LID=26p13989666&KID=4aff6dff-4855-4f48-c2b5-00001efe9be9 Of all the machinists on UA-cam, you are the one with the most "Close-tolerance" talent to duplicate a new houseing (cheekplates). they will need to be hardend. Get together with Tom (Oxtoolco) to do some serious dimensional measurements.
dan rasmussen Agree, watching late in the evening here, and the music made me mute the audio while Adam was speaking. One of things I like about Abom79 vid's is the lack of a radio or music in his shop. There's one guy that puts heavy metal on his vid's and probably wonders why he has fewer than 1000 subscribers..lol
dan rasmussen ..........yes I can't understand this wish to be......what is it 21st century, slick, MGM or something and putting music in the middle of workshop machining video......it's not real..........you're right, it's the machine, the cut and Adam we want to listen to. Music and speeded up becomes some sort of animation, or a Charlie Chaplin movie..maybe " Modern Times" Anyway I'll keep my fingers crossed. Ian Beswick
Checking flow rate is easy. Just time how long it takes to fill a container. So if it fills a gallon container in one minute, then it's a gallon a minute. The test you showed today was what I was asking about yesterday. I need to see if the pump can build pressure and not bypass internally because of excessive clearances. And it did. Thanks for the great videos.
Boy, were you WAY ahead of me. 😊
2 1/2 gallons per minute = 10 quarts per minute = 10 quarts every 60 seconds = 1 quart every 6 seconds. You're flowing pretty close to that. Good enough for what you need.
Just have to make sure nothing is broken or leaking as you continue your inspection.
Thanks for the video
John
Adam you can "bucket check" the flow of the pump by putting a known quantity of fluid in a bucket with the suction and timing how long it takes to discharge it with the pressure relief valve in place. For instance if it's supposed to flow 2.5 gallons per minute at 200 psi then time how long it takes to pull 5 gallons down. If it's faster than 2 minutes your flow rate is fine. If it's slower then it may not be moving enough fluid to properly operate the machine. My two cents anyways. We used Coriolis flow meters on our equipment at my work and when we calibrated them that's how we tested to be sure they were actually pumping at the correct rate.
Michael Roberts You are right on. That's what it is all about. It is just a fluid pump that conveys flow to an actuator: whether it be a cylinder/ram or a rotory device. Don't know what the focus upon pressure is. All it does is spin some wheel to actuate the x-y-z axii. Ain't lifitng a house. I believe there is some leak somewhere in the circuits. I bet it is one of the actuator housing assemblies that worked loose. But, we will seee.
WAVETUBE84 You may or may not remember I wasn't getting any pressure at my test gauge, which is directly out of the pump. Doing all this bench testing it seems to work fine. No pressure at the test point indicates something was wrong.
Abom79 You're on it A-Dude. Like a string of Christmas lights: finding the bad component.
WAVETUBE84 It's not spinning some wheel, It's expanding a closed system plate style clutch.Based on the video he emptied a gallon bucket in less than 10 sec. Just looking at what was coming out of his tubes, Adam has plenty of flow. Gentlemen, I suggest that this is not rocket science.With all do respect, Cliff
Very curious about what is causing the problem, now you proved that the working pressure is good. It is turning into a good investigating series like this! Cheers.
Flip de boer Get a little closer each week.
I know that this video has been up for quite some time but I wanted to kick in something. When you don't have a flow meter, you can run the pump for 15 seconds. pour the fluid into a measuring cup and measure how much was pumped out. Multiply by 4 and you will have your flow per minute; convert volume to flow rate. Love the videos.
Plenty of comments covered the flow rate testing. As for the pressure bleed from the scored poppet, IMO it is inconsequential to the operation. You need only maintain pressure while the pump (and mill) is running. Hydraulic fluid (oil) is not compressible, so even minute leaks will remove the pressure quickly once the pump stops. I have had many tractors, when they are new you can raise an implement and it stays up. As they wear, the implement will drop to the ground overnight, from small leaks in the valves. But the tractor is far from needing repair because of that.
Adam, please remember that just because your spindle is going the right way, the pump / feed motor may not be. These are two separate motors and sometimes the wires can get changed around on the contactors in the control panel by someone who may not be too sure of what they are doing. Please be sure to double check both motors when going back together. Just because one motor rotation is right, it doesn't mean both motors are.
Very good test this time, using the constant flow of the actual machine pump.
All the best,
Cliff
Clifford Fender It would be almost too easy, but if it is, then, Adam and most of us would have learned lots of stuff about hydraulics.... ;-)
pierre beaudry Just food for thought.
great test. next step, map the flow paths and ways to isolate each for testing. through casing and block flow ports can be places trash and silicone sealant contaminates into the system at the time of the repair. valves can stick closed.
Nice test Adam, I really like seeing folks using what they have available to do what they need to do, like making your own plugs, running pump w/ drill etc. A lot can be done with what's on hand when people with your skills, knowledge and 'stick-to-it-iveness' are involved. Looking forward to the next one.
YCM30cnc I love being able to machine up some parts needs right away instead of running around town wasting time buying stuff.
I immensely enjoy watching your vids Adam, especially the special series like this and the welding table. Every time you put a video out there i put up my feet, grab a coffee and live it up. You have mastered the fine art of making both educational and enjoyable videos, and I (and many more, I'm sure) really appreciate and acknowledge the hard work and thought you obviously put into making them. Keep on doing what you're doing!
Trond
Thanks Trond!
Hi Adam, you can measure the flow rate simply by filling up a known volume and taking the time needed with a stop watch. My compliments for this interesting series. Greetings from the Alps. Benno
Benno Margesin Yes we can, I did it today off camera a couple times and made some educated guesses. Looks close to me.
Hi Adam I look forward to your video weekly, thank you for inspiring us all. In part 2 of sns 80 around 5:15 your friend explains the failure to be the poppet not holding the sysyem pressure in the relief body. He explains the spring rate is fine because it relieves at 250psi but the valve is not holding. In this video you also mention the pump is not holding at the seal. It might be something to ask your friend if the leak by at the pump was caused by a possible failed seal or if leak by is normal. In my experience with hydraulics a system pump feed line is normally kept at pressure so I would still consider your first thought of a failed relief to be your issue because it is not holding 250 psi statically at the poppet.
Tim Cho As slowly as the pressure bled off, I seriously doubt that has anything to do with the problem. That test was with a manual/stroke pump moving VERY little fluid. Were talking like a couple tablespoons of fluid/min on a system pumping 2.5 gal/min. Unless I completely misunderstood the flow of this system, that poppet is designed to open/leak/bypass and hence regulate whenever system is running and the flow to the hydraulic components and lube outlets is less than pump output so bleed back should never come into play when the system is running. But I don't know this particular machine and could be completely wrong.
Those components would pass inspection in my mind, but I'm definitely not an expert. It is interesting to watch the diagnostic methods that have to be used to eliminate suspect components. Good luck in the hunt.
I see some negativity on the New Music, but I thought it fell in line real well with the different segments of the video, I liked it, hope You find your source of the problem with the hydraulics, enjoyed Adam
Hi mate.
After looking at the video, I think your fine with the pump and valve. I just reminded myself that the system does not need the maximum pressure, it can just go up to that pressure. The whole thing might be working at a far lesser pressure than the maximum. As you stated you found some rotten O rings, and that might be it. If what it's supposed to drive is ok, than you can't go wrong.
Well done mate. It's good to see how many people want to help, how lucky is that....
I have been following your progress on this project. i suspect that the suction hose was collapsing, and think you are right about replacing it with a steel pipe. the pump is looking good and the pressure valve.
That looked pretty good, Adam. Time to go on to the suction line. Make sure it has an adequate ID to achieve the flow rate. It would be best to determine what K&T used originally for a suction line. The suction side also needs to be totally air tight, but you know that...
***** I'm using 1/2" steel tubing which has a 3/8" ID, should work good.
Abom79 I guess the only other thing I can think of is a big leak in the system somewhere, like a missing plug, blown oring, or something else that is letting your oil leak back to the sump, which keeps it from building pressure.
I don't have anything to suggest that others have not already covered as well. I think the problem was the hose from watching your tests.
I would like to see the pressure relief valve unload at the correct pressure and return consistently before reassembly.
JMO , thanks for the video and good luck.
Richard
Adam, I've worked on a lot of military hydraulics, but no machines like this mill. The vast majority of my experience is with a sealed system that runs 35gpm at 3000 psi. Mostly hydraulic motors, though I have some experience with rams. What I can tell you is that there is no minor dripping leak here. This is a major blown seal, o-ring or gland in either a valve body, shaft seal, or perhaps a clutch or a split, detached, or unseated line or hose. What I'm getting at is that it's a BIG leak. In this instance, a 2 plus gallon/min leak. Sorry I don't know the workings of this particular system, This one's obviously more difficult to trace since the leak dumps back into the sump. My recommendation is to orient the assembly as it sits in the machine over a large drip pan with jumper hoses on anything you can't have attached in this position and repeat the test you just did here with oil if possible and look for the biggest hemorrhage. At only 225 psi, it'll be a doozy to keep it from getting to and maintaining working pressure. FWIW, you can check the flow rate without a meter by simply timing how long it takes to pump a gallon or quart and doing the math, though it's pretty clear the that the pump and relief/bypass assembly are likely well within reasonable tolerance. Be careful testing with air as it is compressible and stores energy. If a seal pops under oil pressure is just starts leaking or moves at a relatively slow rate. If something that's normally held captive when assembled blows out under air pressure, it could send parts flying at a high rate of speed. Good luck with the troubleshooting.
Hi Adam, I'm learning as this goes on, good to see all the steps.
Cheers, Pierre
Just wanted to throw this out here, thank you for your videos man. I know I dont comment often, and normally not on time, but i enjoy watching what and how you do what you do. Keep up the good work brother :)
I'm thinking it was that suction line collapsing. That crimped rubber line looks custom. Like you said in a previous video, those lines aren't meant for suction. I worked on an old John Deere that wasn't building oil pressure. Had the pump machined back to spec by a machinist buddy of mine. Wound up finding a piece of duct tape blocking the suction tube. Now builds plenty of pressure for a 90 year old tractor.
Nathan Wilson I sure hope its the suction line, but today I also found two bad o-rings. More on it later.
Abom79 As the old saying goes, "For want of a nail the shoe was lost. For want of a shoe the horse was lost. For want of a horse the race was lost."
Abom79 Remember the pump only provides flow. Resistance provides pressure. If you did todays test with one or both of your plugs removed most likely the relief valve would not have opened and system pressure would have been zero or very low. Somewhere in the system resistance was lost (bad O-rings) and that would explain the low pressure on your system pressure gauge. It doesn't matter that the gauge comes directly off the pump, the pump only provides flow. Something in the system, like clutches and motors (hydraulic) provide resistance. Find the leak now that you know the pump provides flow.
Adam,
The original black suction line looks more like a pressure line to me. Maybe it was collapsing and thus causing a restriction?
Your test set up looks fine! Do an "empty the bucket times test" next for flow rate. It will be plenty close to verify flow rate.
All the best and thanks for posting!
Eric
Hi Adam, discovered your site by accident, now I'm hooked! Love the whole bag you deliver and I have watched many vids 2 or 3 times but just saying like: you have picked up a lot of subscribers so far without music so please keep it simple and leave it out during the live machine work.
Musical taste is a fairly personal thing, one person's enjoyment can be like fingernails on a blackboard to another,
Best wishes to you and family from snowy Tasmania.
Hi Adam,
Good test, I agree with Matt Wilkins, your relieving at the proper pressure so I would be looking at the component's on the 2 other branches of the circuit.
And the suction line.
Working on hydraulic systems daily, I can tell you it doesn't take a very big leak to lose 2 1/2 gpm .
Would it be possible to install the pump and relief valve, and run the pump. You can run the relief into a bucket instead of on the gears.
Set the whole gearbox in a pan, run it a few secounds, and see if you still get 250psi at relief. Or it may not bypass at all. If not, try to see where the oil is coming out.
If you get bypass at the relief, you should be OK.
I don't know if this would be feasible for you, but I think it would tell you alot.
Adam,
I think you're good to go. The pump and pressure relief valve appear to be performing within their parameters. In a perfect world with a flow meter and knowing your GPM you could be more exact, but for what you have proven with your test it's good to go IMHO. I would not be too concerned with audience critique, but it's all well meaning ;-).
Best,
Jeff
Adam, I think you are right to call the pump and relief valve good. I agree with the others who say to look at the clutches.
You're probably on the right track in thinking the problem is with the intake hose that you're replacing with a hard line. It sure can't hurt. Thanks for the video, although I'm not a big musical interlude fan, ask Stan....lol.
Nice "quick and dirty" job on the plugs! Good test Adam....From the amount of oil in the bucket, it seemed as if the volume was close to being correct. I too agree that things are looking good as far as the relief valve and pump are concerned.Maybe by removing and cleaning the relief valve, it took care of it. I seem to recall a couple of misc items you had found, so maybe it will work fine when you get it back together. Hang in there with you chin up! Jim
Jim Liechty Thanks Jim. Today I put the mystery parts back on the machine, more on that next week though.
I don't have anything to suggest that others have not already covered. It looks like you are on the right track. I guess my big question is why is the relief valve working on your test there but failing when you did the test with the hand pump? What has changed between then and now? Looking for a smoking gun I guess.....
Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org That was my thought Keith. Is there not supposed to be a check valve at or near the relief valve, to prevent backflow and maintain operating pressure on the output side?
Rain Coast in the test with portapower you were just running the pressure up to pop off the relief, with the pump you are continuously pumping oil into it. Could the overall problem be like the oiling system in an engine when the bearings get so loose, and their clearances so wide that the volume of the pump is not enough to bring the pressure up to the relief setting. Like if you took one of your "test plugs" out. something in the business end of the machine is dumping so much oil that the (OK) pump cant keep up. Dave
I was gonna suggest the same as everybody else did, so I didn't. Great videos, Adam.
I'm still thinkin it's the suction hose. I've seen and had my share of them even fuel lines deteriorate and cause blockages. It sucks that it's a pain in the ass to put it back together to see if it works so I understand why you're looking at every little thing. Good luck! Challenges are always fun but it's even more fun to solve them quickly.
Gee Dubb Yep, it's a job, especially after you have it all filled with oil. Hoping to find anything wrong i can and correct it before we slide it back together.
Abom79 Amen brother.
YOU CUT THE THREADS LIKE MAGIC , YOUR GOOOOD !!!
COULD YOU HAND LAP THE SEAT ON THE RELIEF VALVE , SO IT DOESN'T LOOSE PRESSURE SO FAST ?
OLD WIPPER-SNAPPER DIDN'T YOUR EXPERT SAY IT SHOULD HOLD PRESSURE LONGER ?
Hey Adam, you are going to be working on this project 24/7 right ? we wont have to wait until next week for the solution. Being completely retired, I check my emails for updates hourly. I love the input from the other viewers. If I had a clue what you were doing, I might even make a suggestion. Sure have learned a lot just watching this. best of luck...Ken ...Marina CA
Kenneth Bartlett Hehe, its not only me who cant wait another week to see the progress on the fix!
Hi Adam. The easy way to check the flowrate is to use a measuring jug and see how much oil gets in it, in one minute.
About your rpm's with the portable drills: you could get an stroboscope app for your cellphone and set it to 980/min / 60 = 16.3Hz. Tape something white on your chuck, shine your phone's led at it and slowly speed up your drill. When the white thing appears to stop moving at your 16.3Hz light, you've hit 980rpm
ineedagoodnickname Hi mate. That is a good idea. I did not know that it is available.
Did a little analysis on the audio and I calculated something around 600-900rpm for the run at 10:50. Hard to tell from the spectrum, but you're definitely in the ballpark.
Quite fascinating progress. Adam, have you considered any drive issues to the pump? Is the drive rotating at the correct speed? Can you be sure that the motor is rotating in the correct direction? Can you be sure of the connection between the motor and the shaft on the pump is not slipping and there is a positive drive?
As for the speed of the drill your using I think you have one of those Starrett speed measuring tools with a rubber tip on the nose of it? -Trap the drill in a vice and clamp the on / off switch wide open, put the speed measuring tool up to a nearly closed chuck for 60seconds = reasonable speed check of the drill (under no load of course!)
I do wonder about the suction hose and filter combined causing starvation of oil to the pump. The hydraulic pipe is in really poor condition and the mesh seems very fine indeed - perhaps not a total blockage but a likely restriction?
Hey just a thought for in the future you don't need a flow meter. Just take a specified volume and time how long it takes to pump it then you could just convert oz/sec to gal/min. It is a little crude but it will get you in the ballpark.
Hi Adam! I think your on the right track. Keep up the great videos
Suggestion for your test:
If you have a lathe that is variable speed use it to drive your pump. You can use a hand held tachometer to check spindle speed and get the proper RPM before chucking the pump up. Then attach a hose to the outlet of the relief valve and into a container of known volume, perhaps a half gallon. With all things set up start the lathe and time for 30 seconds. Do a little math and you have the GPM at the proper flow and RPM. This test should give you a pretty close approximation of proper running conditions. If you have enough oil and a large enough container you could run the pump longer and get a more accurate reading.
I think those components are good to go, time to put them back on. Have you air checked those clutches yet with a blow gun?
bcbloc02 Yes i have Brian, I was air checking them since day one of inspecting. I showed some of the clutch today on video, and put it all back together. The clutches look good, and seems to work just like it supposed to.
Abom79 bcbloc02 Looking good Adam. I am hoping you licked it by replacing that suction hose and cleaning the filter. Watching the flow on your initial test I'd say you were right at or a little short of your 2 gpm, this is before you sped it up. Of course once you hook it all back up those other plugs will not be blocked and the pump will have a harder time building pressure, have to wait and see. Can't wait to see the old girl back in action.
Abom79 Thanks for showing such interesting diagnostics Adam. I was thinking about the ports in the castings being blocked with gasket goo and I guess you were concerned about that as well. At least now you are fairly certain that the mechanism in the knee is capable of pumping an adequate flow to work the relief valve.
Really digging the music during the cuts!
Looks like you have good flow and pressure. The kinked suction line could have sucked shut, but before you put it all back together, you might want to check where that hydraulic oil is used, to make sure there isn't some leaking valve that is killing all your pressure. You could do that with just a hand pump. It looks like you are going along step by step and you will sort this out. I get the feeling from your comments that you are getting a little tired of all the armchair mechanics, like myself, ;) , asking the same questions or pointing out the same minutiae. I guess that just comes with the territory of putting this stuff up on UA-cam. Good luck and keep up the great work.
Rambozo Clown I understand everyone wants to help and voice there opinion.
Hey Adam,
Great test, looked like a success and the system working correctly.
Hopefully it will be smooth sailing from here!
Ray
Seems to pump good now Adam , At least as a bench test .. Your building PSI for sure ..!
Way to go Adam there's no need to buy what you can make good job
More experts than expertise....
Good test. As others have said, you could calculate quarts per second, say 15 seconds. Drill motor RPM specs used to be available online from Dewalt. But when Black & Decker bought the company, they were no longer published. None are made in the U.S. or Canada anymore.
You could do it the old fashion way and use a strobe light, marker and.... Ah forget it...
Doug Hanchard the drill sayd it does 1200rpm at the middle setting, but under load of course less, but it sounded about the 800-900 rmp mark, close enough and you could see it pumped easily even at low rpm, i think its close enough to call the 2.5 gallons per min just fine, the main fault was probably the bad pick up line bodge (not reaching the oil too?) and the possible low oil level, it will soon be ready to put this together, im sure it will work, remember he had zero pressure on his original fault, and its obviously capable of the 250lbs, so it was a total lack of oil either in or going out somewhere huge, most likely now it was the input, hope his new oilline will be a bit longer than the old one!
With Adam running the damage control party, Chief Engineer Montgomery Scott would probably say "dinna if I coulda din better test meself!"
Doug Hanchard I did several tests off camera and made an educated guess that it was pumping enough. That black bucket is one gallon and I emptied it a few times pretty quickly.
I kind of like the new music. getting close to seeing the K&T rocking.
Eric Corse Same here, its good for a change, goes well with the "quick jobs"
The pump and bypass/regulator look good. Would have actually been surprised if the pump was bad; it's built like a tank.
Adam,What do the two plugged ports normally hook up to? If you're not developing any back pressure(IE:free-flow) at those points,which indicates they're getting lots of oil,you may never build up enough back pressure to activate the relief, which is normally in a system like this to prevent blowing up the pump or some other component..This system is for lubing some shaft(s) is it not? Do they drain back to tank? It's not like and enclosed system with cylinders or such. Or maybe I'm missing something.
Adam, love the videos. Am really curious how it acts w/ the old suction line and filter. Looking forward to next vid. Marty.
An afterthought hit me reference this system pulling double duty as a lubrication system. I would be looking for what controls the flow of that lubrication, be it another bypass valve, metered orifices, or just designed flow/leakage tolerances. If it was a restrictor that didn't get put back, that could surely let a LOT more fluid through than the pump could supply. What about those passages in the casting? Could a gasket on the mating surfaces have failed?
A flow meter is a bucket and a stopwatch. If you had a bit over 5 gal of oil and a 5 gal bucket, and could fill it in 2 minutes at around 850-860 RPM you would know that it is making the right volume and doesn't have too much bypass leakage. The trick would be running it at the right speed for that long.
If the bypass leakage is minimal then the flow rate to RPM should be about linear. It sounded like you were around 100 RPM on that first test. At that speed you would pump about 0.3 gal per minute to be on spec. That drill motor might hold up for 3 minutes at that speed, and should give you around 0.9 gallon in 1 minute. Considering the variable speed, I'd call anything over 2/3 gallon good.
An oval gear flow meter might be a pretty cool project. Collab with AvE to do the electronics!
Adam,
I agree that it looks like the pump is not the problem, I was wondering (unless I missed it somewhere) that when you had the relief valve at work the poppet was not holding. What did you end up doing to fix that?
I agree with your conclusions that you confirmed that the pump and regulator are both working properly. I thought about suggesting you time how long it takes to pump a gallon of oil through it at the specified RPM (should be 24seconds). But the fact that you got good pressure and the amount of flow you had in your previous video tells me that the problem is most likely something else.
I believe You said that the pressure gauge on the mill only read around 10PSI. Since you know the pump and pressure regulator are both working. That makes me wonder if the intake line was pinched off or clogged from the inside delaminating as you suspected. I figure it had to be that or a leak between the pump and regulator, regulator stuck open, weak or improper motor, or the coupling between the pump and motor slipping, filter clogged, not enough oil in sump, or that the pressure gauge on the mill was wrong. I may have missed a few things.
If it isn't a big deal to slide everything back together, I'd be tempted to make a proper intake line, and put it back together.
Chris
[continued]. (Don't know why it cut off early)
If it isn't a big deal to slide back together, I'd be tempted to try putting it back together with a proper intake line. Any chance the hose was bending and holding the intake above the oil.
Chris
shadowdog500 I'm working on a new intake line and addressing a couple other issues I found too. It's possible it was the intake line.
Adam, I'm no hydraulics professional or anything, but couldn't you get an estimate for the flow rate by running the pump for a given amount of time (say 10 seconds), checking how much oil passed through it (measuring using a standard, 1 liter bottle) and then, if need be, multiply accordingly? Sure, it won't be as exact as a dedicate flow meter, but seems like a cheap, quick and quite precise fix to get an estimate for your rate of flow.
Edit: Just saw someone else already suggested that here in the comment section. Neglect my comment. Thanks for sharing, Adam! :)
Good video Adam I reckon you are ontrack with the collapsing pickup hose. Sorry but don't like the music that's crept into the background during the machining and speech.
Thanks for sharing. regards from the UK
Gary C I like to try different things, and todays machining of the plugs I wanted to bust through pretty fast and not spend a bunch of time explaining each step. Personally I like the background music....sometimes. Thanks for your input though.
Looks good, as the others have said you can do a simple bucket check... wonder if you would be better to turn the pump with the lathe, synchronous motor and you'll better know the rpm. Not being a hydraulic expert I reckon that is looking like more than enough flow bearing in mind the rpm you are hitting.
Great video series, enjoy them a great deal.
David Lisney With two bench tests shown, I doubt I will be rigging it up in a lathe. We got other issues to find.
I can understand that! I think it looks fit and healthy.... the issues with the relief valve seem to be fixed now. Like the pace of your videos and I am always learning something. Best wishes from the UK
Hi Adam:
It would be ideal if you could access test parameters for that hydraulic system which I'm sure somebody must have. Timing a known amount of oil, will give you flow rate. Besides oil flow capacity, you need to know rpm range for testing the pump.Those machines are common and popular enough to make the required info available in the machining community. Send a request for it.
Regards
Jorge
Jorge Scordamaglia I suspect that if Adam asks around, there's a test rig or three floating around Pensacola... Navy surplus if nothing else...
Or, at a shop that does hydraulics for things like bulldozers and other mobile equipment...
Wouldn't it be neat if someone associated with the Blue Angels / NAS Pensacola offered to host Adam for a full-up test & adjust of the pump and PRV?
Cheers,
Eric
Adam check the clutch/coupling motor to pump on the K&T
No need for a flow meter. You can measure GPM over a fraction of a minute by measuring how much it pumps in 30, 20, 15 or 10 seconds and multiplying by 2, 3, 4 or 6. If it does 2 quarts (1/2 gal) in 1/5 of a minute (12 seconds), it is making the specified 2.5 GPM.
Even simpler: with a little bit of math, you can calculate the specified volume per revolution (2.5 gallons divided by 859 revolutions I think it was?). Then you can use one of those Starrett RPM gauges that actually counts revolutions (I think you have one) and it won't matter if you can easily set an exact RPM on the drill motor. I think the pump will run at the specified RPM due to the internal gearing, so if it will pump the proper amount per revolution at some speed even close to operating speed, it will pump as specified when installed.
Ok so it has good PSi and good flow
So did you fix something I missed
Or dose it seem to work with no changes but not when it is in the machine
All,hooked up??
This should work the PSI is to speck and good,flow
Good test. I'm not so worried about flow. Looks like you have it. I'm wondering where the two lines go that you had to plug. If either of them are wide open then the other two wont get flow or pressure. Unless of course there is something that I don't know about the system. Such as other regulators in the system. If I remember correctly you did some air testing with all three?
Matt Wilkins One line goes over to feed the hydrashift gear box, and the other works the power feed and rapids. I talked about it in the past videos.
hey adam love the vids i can't wait till you post the vids wish i new half of what you do but i think you are on the right track i love the music too
The pump is pumping, back pressure or not, the problem lies elsewhere
Thanks man, fluid dynamics is some quantum shit
Kelly Breckenridge Practical fluid mechanics like this ain't so bad... *theoretical* fluid mechanics where you have to do the differential equations - which are mostly meaningless in real world applications! - is akin to quantum mechanics... I'm glad that I passed the damned classes - and have absolutely *NO* desire to ever subject myself to that kind of pain ever again... ;^)
Eric
Thanks for that makes great sence
Hey Adam just a thought have you checked your pickup line for cracks? That pump and relief are working a treat! Oh and if you wanna test flow you can time how long it takes to empty that little 1 gal bucket you have, just a second thought. Awsome vids, keep up the good work.
wheelitzr2 I've been talking about that in a couple of videos now. I am making a new suction tube because I think the old one is bad
Hi Adam, love your videos but please can the music during the machining. Thanks'
have you tried to simulate a load on the working side (ie.. hydro cylinder) of the relief valve? the flow looks good but if the part that needs the pressure is not getting enough then it will operate poorly.
Did you replace the poppet or just clean it and the valve body up and reuse? got me thinking now - what the he!! else could be going on.
no issues with thepump, its certainly gonna do over 2 gallons a minute
Things look promising. By the time you get through the rest of the knee I bet you'll have it.
Colin ;-)
Take it easy Adam. The problem is further down the line. Maybe, but i do not know... another dude mentioned the clutches that engage the drives??? Don't know if the even exist. but definitely reasonable. Be a hoot if that's the gig and all of this hyd. troubleshooting is a goose chase. Gota get Tom to "step on the mat"! Show what he knows.... get some rubber on the road. .......Yeah, Tom went outside and stomped some weeds when he saw that mini-Wilton vise on that sweet gymbol.
WAVETUBE84 Back to when he first put a gauge on the testing point he had zero pressure, and that was right after the pump, I think it was the pick up tube that was the fault, im sure he has put some air onto the other parts to see if they hold up and move. Yeah who isn't green with envy over that wilton vise! never seen one in the UK but our 'Record' brand vices which are no longer made are i guess our equivalent and now treated with respect as they are irreplaceable now
jusb1066 Yeah, he could use a stop watch and a known amount of hyd. fluid, and extrapolate the GPMs. He would need to have a separate catch pan for the P/R discharge, to be a little more exact. But, It looks like everything is fine with the pump. Even at the designed operating pressure, it looks like it is doing it's job.
Sooo many opinions
Follow your instincts
My TV is always on, keeps me company
Awesome!!! Keep it up, looks like it's pumping good
Hi Adam !
Flowmeter .... couldn't you just start the dril motor and just measure how much oil you pump pr. miniute ... OK, you don't knoe the RPM's but you could get an idea of how much, I think.
Keld Sørensen I could do that but it would be an educated guess. I would have preferred to see an inline flow meter.
Abom79 Inline flow meters are nice, but a bit pricey for pressure rated units... I use a cheaper type called a Rotameter - variable area, and the float is pushed up against gravity, so it needs to be vertical - at work for air and water... you need to be able to see the float. I get them from McMaster-Carr for $50 to $60 each... but, they're not rated for 300 psig, nor for hydraulic fluid
So, you are left with a fallback of using a stopwatch and a marked bucket, and doing a little math if you want to do this on a budget... Even big engineering companies and oil refineries do this, if only to calibrate flowmeters...
Your options for getting a known rpm drive are also a bit limited, especially on a budget... DC motors and controllers are out there, but who wants to spend the $$$ for a one-time project, for a *nice-to-have* kind of deal... it'd be different if you already had the drive sitting on a shelf collecting dust.
Long story short - Your rig has shown that the pump moves fluid, and delivers good pressure - I'd worry about other issues now.
Eric
Abom79
It would show the same value ...
Hey Adam, you're probably thinking what the hell is a chef doing commenting on my videos. As I mentioned earlier I started life as a Machinist tool and die maker.Then built custom machinery from scratch for over 20 years. I was heavily into PLC's, hydraulics and pneumatics. I have also been a master Electrician which is what I am doing now. The Chef thing is just a hobby. Anyway what I would do is plug the output of the pump and see if you are dumping over the relief valve at the required setting. You could also set it while you're at it.
Chef Bart Hey Chef, that's what I did in this video...did I not??
Abom79 I didn't notice you restricting the flow on the output side of the pump and dumping over the relief valve above the working pressure. Just a thought.
adam interesting thanks for the extra video. bob
I forgot to ask, is that the hydraulics for the entire machine ?
Instead of using a flow meter, you can get a quick and dirty idea of flow with a stopwatch. Just time how long it takes to move a known amount of fluid at the needed RPM. If you need to move 2.5 gal/min, it should take 24 seconds to move 1 gal.
Do you know if pressure relief valve on a small tractor would blow hydro filter seal
Is there a way to mount that pressure gauge somewhere on the K&T so you can always have a pressure reference? Maybe through a bulkhead-type fitting?
***** Hi mate. it normally lives on the machine. However you don't want to put it back together, and find it's still not working.
Adam, I left a comment on SNS 80 pt. 1 a few days ago but I know you are very busy so I figured you probably didn't see it. I was wondering what the little saw you used to cut stock was? It was around the 16:00 point in SNS 80 part 1.
I think your talking about my Johnson power jack saw. 👍😎 It was a Craigslist find my dad found for me a few years ago. It's great for small and quick cutting needs.
My mistake, I meant to say Jefferson power hack saw.
Abom79 Thank you very much! I looked at it and said to myself "That's perfect size for my garage" now I need to find one...
For your flow rate. Pump 1 gallon of oil with your pump at the prescribed RPM from one bucket to another and see how long it takes. Then do the math to see how many gallons per minute you are pumping.
You don't need a flow meter, run for a minute and measure the volume of oil that comes out.
12345NoNamesLeft His drill probably can't take a minute... would have to use a different power source.
Your right, this is the quick and dirty way of doing it! You actually don't have to do for specific time, you can take a measures amount if oil and figure out how long it took to pump it and extrapolate flow rate from that!
DSCKy
15 seconds and then x's 4 then.
there is no one way valve in the pump correct? If not it is not possible for it to hold pressure in static state not pumping. So it is pumping pressure, now check for volume, open one of your plugs put a hose on it and see if the gauge still comes up to pressure while feeding fluid back into your oil bucket with one open line. No volume no work. We have the same issue with fuel pumps on cars you can have pressure but if the pump is weak it might not have the volume to actually keep up with demand.
I stand by what I said before you ever started working on it.
Must be a leak down stream after the relief valve.
So you had an obstruction or your suction line was bad?
Measuring the flow is only relevant in a variable displacement system. Yours is a fixed displacement pump running at a fixed rpm. Knowing its flow is of theoretical use only. The facts are that you now know the pump is capable of making relief pressure and the relief valve is capable of holding the pressure. Except did you not say relief pressure was supposed to be 350psi? Anyway, you're getting more than the 10psi you had on the machine.
It's now fairly clear that you have leakage downstream somewhere. A leaking line or valve or clutch pack. It should be fairly easy to track down by pressurising the system with compressed air.
Hi Adam, I've watched your vids for a long time and I really like your style and enjoy them alot. But I have to put in a little complaint this time, I hope that you're not gona make a habit of playing backround music during machining, and even worse, when you're talking, I've had enough of that from regular tv show, which is also one of the major reason I rarely watch that anymore.
dunkelheit843 Yes!!!!! If you put music in anything but a music video, it makes it look amateurish.Thanks
dunkelheit843 I totally agree. Music during the photographs is more than enough.
monkey12345648 I'll have to disagree on that one, but to each his own. Comments about the music noted.
dunkelheit843 Yes indeed, the music is a bit much. I watch a lot of Forensic Files and their music is louder than the people talking. Other than that the content is great. Can hardly wait to see why it doesn't work properly.
Abom79 I don't like the music during the video either.
Sorry replied to the reply under my other ID!
Would be funny if the problem was just a low level of hyd. fluid. I forget if you checked that prior to tearing down the machine.
What is that song from aprox 3:00?
Adam, you have great attention to detail, It's an open can of worms , you just got to work on it one worm at a time, Get -er - did. Okie-Chopper ...
The relief valve is working,
the cheek plates are leaking.....too much wear.
200 psig x 2.5 gpm; the pump is consuming ~ 0.5 hp (375watts) !! yep it should be smok'in. :)
[ 1 hp approx. 1500 psig at 1 gpm] rule of thumb
In older systems, like yours, the first thing you see with worn plates is a fall in flow and the machine slows down. (usually in fast motions like "Rapid Traverse". slower operations, not so much.
The test shows its making pressure, but the leak-down cant be seen inside an oil filled crankcase.
the next step people do is raise the RV pressure, but since flow only rises a little with resect to pressure, they say its failed.
You can measure flow by using a small Scale. (like a digital food scale) www.target.com/p/taylor-digital-food-scale/-/A-11011109?ref=tgt_adv_XSB10002&AFID=bing_pa_df&LNM=11011109&CPNG=Kitchen&kpid=11011109&LID=26pbs&ci_src=328768002&ci_sku=11011109&ref=tgt_adv_XS000000&AFID=msn&CPNG=pla_new_kitchen&adgroup=pla+kitchenware&LNM={Keyword}&MT=broad&LID=26p13989666&KID=4aff6dff-4855-4f48-c2b5-00001efe9be9
Of all the machinists on UA-cam, you are the one with the most "Close-tolerance" talent to duplicate a new houseing (cheekplates). they will need to be hardend. Get together with Tom (Oxtoolco) to do some serious dimensional measurements.
Just run the pump for 20 seconds and measure the amount of fluid that it pumps into the pan. Do the math and boom! GMP!
No offence Adam but I'd rather listen to the machine run then the musis
dan rasmussen Agree, watching late in the evening here, and the music made me mute the audio while Adam was speaking. One of things I like about Abom79 vid's is the lack of a radio or music in his shop. There's one guy that puts heavy metal on his vid's and probably wonders why he has fewer than 1000 subscribers..lol
dan rasmussen ..........yes I can't understand this wish to be......what is it 21st century, slick, MGM or something and putting music in the middle of workshop machining video......it's not real..........you're right, it's the machine, the cut and Adam we want to listen to. Music and speeded up becomes some sort of animation, or a Charlie Chaplin movie..maybe " Modern Times"
Anyway I'll keep my fingers crossed.
Ian Beswick
Adam; Please cut the music! I'd rather hear the lathe....Hal