Why Literary Agents & Editors REJECT a Book After the FIRST PAGE: 7 Red Flags | PART 1 | iWriterly
Вставка
- Опубліковано 13 чер 2024
- Learn the seven red flags in editing and how industry pros know a book isn't ready for publication.
Most literary agents know after the first page (or first few pages) if a manuscript is ready or if the writer needs more time to polish their writing and hone their craft.
In this video, Meg LaTorre will go through 7 EDITING RED FLAGS.
Topics covered in this video:
• Where to start your story
• Showing vs. telling
• Information dumps
• How to weave in backstory
• Floating heads
• How to properly handle dialogue
• Overuse of adjectives and adverbs
• Too flowery writing
• Stakes
• Conflict
• Writing voice-y characters (characters with a strong voice)
~~~
💻 TAKE MEG'S COURSE: How to Write a Query Letter
iwriterly.thinkific.com/cours...
~~~
WATCH PART TWO:
Why Literary Agents & Editors REJECT a Book After the FIRST PAGE: 14 Red Flags | PART 2
• Why Literary Agents & ...
~~~
SOURCES REFERENCED IN THIS VIDEO:
Types of Character Arcs
• Types of Character Arc...
How to Show vs. Tell in Your Writing
• How to Show vs. Tell i...
Filler Words to Remove from Your Novel
• Filler Words to Remove...
How to Give Your Character Voice
• Video
NEVERNIGHT by Jay Kristoff
amzn.to/2MJSw52
~~~
RELATED iWRITERLY CONTENT:
Reasons Why Books Are Rejected (By Literary Agents & Editors)
• Why Books Are Rejected...
IS YOUR BOOK READY TO PUBLISH? | How a Literary Agent/Editor Knows Your Book Isn't Ready
• Video
Why Readers Stop Reading
• Why Readers Stop Readi...
Why First Drafts Stink
• Video
How Do You Know Your Book is Done (Being Edited)?
• How Do You Know Your B...
~~~
📚PURCHASE THE CYBORG TINKERER📚
books2read.com/thecyborgtinkerer
🎁ENTER THE CYBORG TINKERER PREORDER GIVEAWAY🎁
forms.gle/qTs9pAcZZnborwdc8
🎩Learn more about The Cyborg Tinkerer🎪
iwriterly.com/the-cyborg-tink...
👉SUPPORT iWRITERLY ON PATREON: / iwriterly
🎥BECOME A MEMBER ON UA-cam: / @iwriterly
👚👕 CHECK OUT iWRITERLY'S MERCHANDISE: 👕👚
teespring.com/stores/iwriterly
☕BUY MEG A CUP OF COFFEE.☕
ko-fi.com/iwriterly
// ABOUT MEG: //
To learn more about Meg, please visit:
iwriterly.com/about-meg/
// FOLLOW MEG ON SOCIAL MEDIA: //
Website: bit.ly/iWriterlyWebsite
Newsletter: bit.ly/iWriterlyNewsletter
Twitter: bit.ly/MegLaTorreTwitter
Instagram: bit.ly/MegLaTorreInstagram
Additional Links: linktr.ee/meg_latorre
// RECORDING SET UP: //
• Camera: Canon EOS M50
amzn.to/2FgFOpB
• Lights: Craphy Studio Lighting
amzn.to/2W67hjj
• Tripod: Acuvar tripod
amzn.to/2W9wXvz
• Microphone: Takstar SGC-598
amzn.to/2W3eT68
[affiliate links]
Green Screen tools thanks to:
• Twitter Green Screen w...
• THUMBS UP EMOJI GREEN ...
• Animated Subscribe But...
Character art created by David B.
/ davecharacterart
DISCLAIMER: This video and description contain affiliate links, which means that if you click on one of the product or service links, iWriterly will receive a small commission.
#authortube #writingtips #writingadvice
WHY LITERARY AGENTS & EDITORS REJECT YOUR MANUSCRIPT AFTER READING THE FIRST PAGE | iWRITERLY
Question: Will scented paper help or hurt my submission? Torn between strawberry and passion mango.
This just made my day. Thank you.😂
Strawberry will give you victory.😎
Passion Mango is my jam!
I love this community
Wtf XD
My first professionally published book was rejected for YEARS! I sent it off as a last ditch effort to a friend's editor. I never heard back. I called her months later and it turned out she left the publishing house... and left my manuscript in a rejection pile of 200 manuscripts (this was in the '90s). I wrote to her at her new publishing house. She said it was not right for anyone. I felt so hurt and upset. However, the very next day, I received a letter in the mail (snail mail back then) from the editor who had replaced her. She read my "rejected" manuscript and loved it. Hence, my first book was published in 1998. Out of 200 rejected manuscript she bought two... mine was one of them, and is still in publication to this day. Never give up!! Now, I have an agent who read the first chapter of my latest novel and asked me to send her the entire manuscript when it was done (no time line). She adored the first chapter. The book is done and almost ready to send out to her, a year later! Fingers and toes crossed that she loves the entire book as much as she loved the first chapter.
Good luck! 😁
Awesome. Do we have a title to know what to look for?
Name please?
Good luck!! Hope all goes well
Good luck! Tell us the title when you publish !
All writing advice: Don't start with info dumping
Tolkien: Hold my pipe
For fantasy and sci-fi I sometimes find myself begging for an info dump just because I can’t figure out what the heck is going on.
@@meganlukes6679 Agree and that’s because most fantasy titles have awful structuring. Unless it’s a quite small read, sub 200 pages, you should have enough time to sneak in information naturally
It's quite obvious Tolkien would not get published today. Which is actually quite sad
@@Cystlib specially considering his works even to this day still stand head & shoulders above any other work of fantasy
@@meganlukes6679 I totally agree. I'm writing sci-fi so decided to read a few sci-fi books to see how others were doing it and I don't know what the hell is going on or where the characters are half the time, it's just talk/stuff happening. I usually quit reading after the first two chapters.
Giving us SOME info dump at the beginning to set the stage would have kept me reading.
01:03 the story starts in the wrong place
04:14 telling vs. showing
05:54 too much backstory or info-dumps
07:20 floating heads
08:04 overuse of adjectives and/or adverbs
09:44 scenes or a story that lacks stakes
11:45 a protagonist with a weak voice
That's all for fiction. I need it for non-fiction.
Telling rather than showing is bad, for the most part. Even long-winded Henry James would tell aspiring writers to "Dramatize dramatize dramatize." Of course, there are exceptions. Look at J.D. Salinger. Almost nothing happens in any of his books, yet they're captivating (for some people, anyway).
@@joyzeebell5519 hi are you bookworming during quarantine?
Thank you.
my adhd ass thank you for this
There was an experiment a few years bak where several novels that had sold well were retitled and submitted to various agents and publishers.Almost all were rejected. Most of those that were not were recognised by the editor.The staggering workload and volume of submissions leads to editors actily looking for a reason to reject a given work and move on.
StatmanRN link to study?
Taste in reading, like clothing fashion, change over time.
@@bioboy1819 Probably not this one. There is a Jane Austen fan club leader who sent Jane Austen most famous books with his own name. The rejection letters are hilarious. Most clearly cannot see the resemblances. One or two gave him an encouragement letter on how original the book is. A few saw the trick and replied in good jest. At least, he was able to take comfort that the reasons his works are rejected might have nothing to do with his own skills after all.
Account for Comment that is a hilarious anecdote! Also very well delivered.
Yeah. Good point, bro.
90% luck, 9% conforming to current trends, 1% the agent is actually interested
Most probably the true reason!
And 99% self-publishing, diversifying one's portfolio, and branding until an agent takes heed.
I’ve noticed that it’s not always the writer who is limited, it is the publisher, agent and even editors that are usually the ones who are limited.
I’m not saying writers who think they have nothing to learn don’t need humbling. There are plenty of writers who need to have both a determined mindset as well as a humble one to write a good book.
But sadly, unless you are self publishing, publishing is a business. And as such your book may be good but it may not be what they are looking for.
Take my book for an example. I want my book to be a Christian fantasy that has an edge to it. But then my book becomes too secular for a Christian publisher and too Christian for a secular publisher. It’s a paradox that goes to show the limitations of the industry, not that of the writer.
But if you’re going to go for a traditional publisher, be prepared to compromise. If not, self publishing is a better way to go. But it’ll take a lot of research to self publish, which is ok. You’re a writer, and apart of writing is solid research.
@@JDGage Hmm, that is my dilemma too because I know an editor of a Christian publishing house who is looking for a Christian writer for a teen audience. I told them that I can write teen romances (tame ones, of course) but I cannot make it too Christian because teenagers do not want to be preached to and even though they may come from Christian families, teenagers are interested in secular love stories. I know this because I I am exposed to teens as a teacher. I prefer the traditional publishing route because self-publishing forces the author to wear too many hats and I am not that good when it comes to the business side of publishing such as marketing and taxation. Plus, it means more money out from my side.
WHATEVER GOES FOR ME it’s very true. I worked in a church as a small group leader for three years, so I totally understand what you mean. I suppose at the end of the day all I can do is write something I want to read. My first book is actually finished and I’m going onto my second. I’ve sent it to a few publishers, but that was of course two months ago. So we will see. Either way only 5% of writers out of the X amount of us who actually finish a book are in fact successful. At least it takes the pressure off of the hobby in a way.
As a professional book reviewer for more than two decades, I’ve observed that a great many books that get published that are guilty of many of the things you caution writers against doing. I’m stunned by the work I’m seeing in recent years: An overabundance of characters undermining any emotional investment in the protagonist’s journey. Shifting back and forth in time constantly. Withholding needed back story for too long. Characterization taking a back seat to plotting. Only the protagonist is well-developed. Other characters are superficially drawn. I’m seeing this out of the major publishers and I wonder where the editors are or why so many weak books are chosen.
One reason might be the "First Page" method of rejecting books. Imagine "All the Kings Men" being submitted to a Lit Agent today: they'd see first page as a run on sentance and press Delete before they even got to the end of the page!
It’s because those books are by established authors who get way more of a pass from the industry than anyone trying to break in.
Once you start writing "for your audience" or for your publisher, something is already lost.
I was searching for this comment, because it describes the sad truth about our entertainment industry. And this is not limited to books.
@@Bennet2391 Indeed not!
If you're not writing for an audience, then you are writing purely for youself. If you're writing for yourself, you don't need to be published.
If you want to share this story you love with others, then you need a publisher and have to be realistic. Getting something published is the first step towards having the freedom to write just as you wish.
@@GFSTaylor if you're writing purely for yourself you may indeed not "need" to be published but the world would be an infinitely poorer place without all the great authors who were and just happened to connect powerfully with us!
As much as agents wish authors did write for the audience, most do not.
The new and different ones tend to stand out, and sell well.
What I learned from this:
Conform to industry standards while still trying to bs everyone into thinking you're being original
You just summarized storytelling.
@@PeterG00000 It pisses me off. This is why nothing real ever comes out. You know what I mean? There's so much potential, there's so much that's never been done, but people always stick to the same.
Writing is not ramdomly puting words into a paper, of course there's things that work better than others, because people connect better with certain things (a dramatic scene killing a well estabilished character vs a dramatic scene killing a character that just shown up is the best exemple of that).
No one is killing the originality of a autor, because "killing a character that just shown up, and expect it to have dramatic weight " is not originality, is just dumb and amateur wrinting.
There's no point in being "original" if the story sucks
@@SuperNovaJinckUFO i agree with you
(for some reason i can't reply the response you send me)
@@joableandro8023 I deleted it because I made a dead wrong claim about Kafka's Metamorphosis XD
“Don’t take 100 pages to start your story.” “Pastoral settings are BORING.” JRR Tolkien disagrees.
You're not Tolkien and it's not 1950.
If LOTR came out right now it would not find main stream success
Gregory Floriolli Tolkien is an example of a writer who who does everything wrong and succeeds brilliantly. Results may vary.
@@wclark3196 you are a loser.. What's wrong? Failed writer? Couldn't make it?
@@wclark3196 Dude, learn to take a joke.
a lot of this explains why there is so much crap literature published now. Interesting insight into the process.
ThePereubu1710 Publishers today are investors. They publish for money. If you have a larger audience you make more money. Not much more insight needed than that. It's a dead simple calculus.
Even if you want to cater to niches, niches are small and have fewer customers and make less money. But you still need money to publish and get books on shelves, so that means a lot of big market books and a few gems scattered in between for those publishers who do still cater to niches. But there are a whole lot of niches, and most of them won't be to most people's taste, so even finding your niche to read from is hard work.
What you need are a lot more publishers who aren't interested in more than making a decent living, and that isn't the world that the market has created. That's on consumers, not businesses.
😆, pretty much.
These are basic rules for good storytelling. Not sure why you think it leads to crap.
@@breadordecide I often joke that a machine could write a story using the "formula" for good writing.
Meaning, yeah it's a story but there's no Soul attached to it. It's just by the numbers story
DravenWolfe You have to learn and respect the rules before you can break them. Before he went abstract Picasso proved he knew how to actually paint objects. Anyone who thinks they are above good grammar and storytelling rules, I’m afraid you’re going to learn the hard way that nobody will want to read your work or pay for it.
Should just change to the title to "Why people self-publish with Amazon."
That's the way I'm going.
@@blessOTMA Don't I cannot warn you enough your book will get buried unless you're marketing it actively
Wabooom Of the loom, thank you, I would expect it would be if I didn't. The choice today seems to be : have your wings clipped in order to be acceptable to a legacy publisher or do the heavy lifting oneself. I choose the latter. It just seems today a new author makes the success via self publishing and then the publishing houses become interested.
@@blessOTMA - My plan is to infiltrate a legacy publishing house and then get my amazing manuscripts published...If the author and the person accepting/rejecting the manuscript are one and the same, what could go wrong?
👏👏
Sure you know. That's why Lord of the Flies had been rejected 15 times and was waiting on the rejection pile at Faber and Faber. Luckily someone picked the ms off that pile and read it on the train home (ie more than one page).
That's why Harry Potter was rejected dozens of times.
You agents only need to read one page.
L.O.T.F. was actually rejected 21 times before it was published.
Harry Potter was rejected because everyone 'knew' children no longer read, and they especially no longer read 'fairy tales and fantasy', so that first page was never read by most of the rejectors. Several people have done brilliant analysis of Harry Potter's 1st page and J.K. got EVERYTHING right; it is an example of each and every principle discussed in this video.
@@friendlyone2706 That's even worse. She got everything right and still got rejected because agents were being petty.
@@DonVigaDeFierro Wow, you are right there. It only shows that the main concern of editors and publishers is the commercial viability of a book project which is understandable. Hence, they should say that the first page is the sole reason why they reject a book. Heck, a lot of the old classics were rejected many times. I believe there are editors who can see a gem despite it being risky fiinancially, and some who have an already preconceived idea that a book will sell or not.
There needs to be a story about an agent rejecting a book, only to have the book's events happen to the agent, perceived flaws and all.
Man, this is kinda discouraging cuz it sounds like agents want cookie cutter stories that cater to their own personal tastes. That's a challenge cuz you don't know who these people are and what they like or don't like. 😓
I'd agree somewhat, but there's some truth to storytelling. We all know that one person that bores the heck out of you when they tell you a story, and then the next friend that can tell the same story, but it's entertaining as hell.
Also how about readers like me, who want to be rather told than showed... I don't need to see in my mind, how main character is walking in the snow, feeling snowlakes melting on their cheeks and freezing wind numbing their toes and fingers as they close their eyes, pull their hood deeper, over their face and closes their eyes into a thin lines, to see 5 feet in front of them...I want to be told where they are going, how they feel and what they are doing. I like to be watching from above, learning from this character and preferably from huge cast of them and their world...and then decide if I care of them. It's not me there in the snow, it's them. I'm in my comfy chair looking and enjoying their adventure. I hope they let at least some of those books through too.
@@scottknows5761 Dude...exactly. I wrote a comment earlier about how I wonder if there's a difference between male and female readers. Because a lot of my guy friends prefer non-fiction over ficiton, I think, specifically because of what you just pointed out. They'd rather be told up front all that background information, that's what gets us invested and want to see what he'll do next. Whereas it seems, women like breadcrumbs and to be strung along on intrigue and curiosity. I'm not knocking either way, but from my time sending query letters to agents for years, I'd say about 80% of them are women. They're catering to their market...other women.
@@StageInTheSkyCreations I don't know if I would say it's a gender thing, but can't be sure. My brain is pretty androgynic, actually leaning on feminine side, so I doubt it's about gender. I assume it is more to do just simple preferances. Problem is agents are looking to get what they like, but also what sells. So when they think of profit, they lean on style that most want to read. My issue is, that variety of styles makes our reading experience richer. So there shouldn't be "rules" on how to write successfully. Let as much through as economically possible and let readers decide what is good.
@@scottknows5761 well, the more precise point, is to Know when to show and when to tell. the point isn't that every little detail needs to be shown. That's lunacy.
It's that showing things is more Powerful. more Impactful. More Meaningful. important things should be shown. unimportant things can be told. what an author signifies as important and unimportant through their thoughtful choice of showing and telling is what makes writing art.
An interesting Example is Cormac McCarthy- he writes crazy-basic sentences, that at a glance seem like they are telling everything and there just isn't anything there. but it's actually quite the opposite. everything important is shown, not told.
In this mindset, even the unique way we show and tell things can be quite distinct, new, and unique. giving our art of storytelling new depth, while not only adhering to the old rules, but embracing them with full heart, understanding, and interaction.
You know, it occurs to me that a lot of the most famous and popular authors of bygone years have been guilty of one or more of these red flags. Look at Tolkien, for instance - the opening chapters are massive history lessons for the reader.
I doubt whether any of the great famous writers of the past would get published now; they wouldn't be considered sufficiently commercial.
You know, it occurs to me that every shitty writer who somebody tries to help by offering useful, actionable advice to, compares themselves to a one-in-a-million successful writer.
You know, it occurs to me that you are a very nasty person who appears to be lashing out at anyone and everyone who dares to suggest maybe the industry is bullshit. No one is comparing themselves to Tolkien. Amazing extrapolation here, you could win the olympic gold medal for mental gymnastics. Your response to this is nothing more than a verbal attack, so opinion discarded.
@@dhp6687 Wow. You're really projecting. Like... a lot. I made a comment wryly observing how many famous and popular authors (many of whom I personally enjoy) are guilty of these red flags (including Tolkien... who, again, I enjoy). You're rushing to assume that this is some kind of attack upon them, because the stories they wrote and which we enjoyed weren't "perfect." Do you often find yourself getting outraged at the slightest pretext?
@@Archone666 Yeah, the world of publishing is constantly evolving. It used to be that there was a substantial midlist and a lot of stuff that would be considered marginal or "too-risky" now got published. Now it's all business, except at the niche publishers.
A: so, what do you think?
B: rejected.
A: don't judge a book by its cover
B: don't worry, we only read the first page
B*: we only have time to read the first page
@@binarekoharijanto4586 B: Dream big and have a good day and a good life
"It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen". --- these idiots would've rejected that manuscript LOL
from a most famous book that EVERYONE should know about
@@BlacKnightRising 1984.
@@Meidaneh_Shush right
Ok, I'm not an industry pro, a published author, or an experienced agent, so take the following with a grain of salt... Does anyone else here get uneasy when they hear these red flags/guidelines? They sound like they're about maximizing consumability, minimizing investment risk, etc. I don't want to take issue with anything Meg is saying (again, she's the industry pro, not me), but I'm just not hearing words like "surprising," "innovative," "risky," "bold," etc here. I wonder if there's a conversation to be had about the value of deliberately subverting industry qualifications to try and produce good art. I mean, sure, 50pp pastoral intros are a drag, and snappy, economic prose is better. It just seems like we're focusing on the rules of the industry instead of the art of telling the truth at all cost.
Publishing is a business like any other. Of course the objective is to minimize risk and maximize profit. That's not just the case with books but with music, games, everything.
Nowadays though, there are thriving indie scenes for developers, musicians, etc. and while not quite AS well-established yet, self-publishing IS a thing nowadays, which is how you can put out risky, controversial, innovative stories without needing approval by big companies that just want a safe bet.
She does mention commercial versus literary, and that she's not in the literary space. So there's that. Personally, I think you can absolutely achieve all the things you're talking about, but within the "commercial" frame of reference Meg's providing guidance on. Of course, if you want to "suffer for your art", and not be recognised until you're dead, that's a pathway as well. You certainly wouldn't be the first one to do that! But it's a tough market out there, and if you want to get even close to being published, you need to work within the confines of "The Game". Once you're IN though, and you've got a (good commercial) reputation, it's a whole different story. Then you can experiment, and take risks, and be as innovative as you want. In the meantime, write because you love it, and because you have a story that won't let you sleep until you tell it. ;)
@@sleepysera And, you can get a much bigger slice of the pie as an Indie than you would as a contracted author. (Of course, you have to put more skin in the game up front, too.)
It's just the nature of business, she offers no real substance to an aspiring writer, it only takes a couple seconds to listen to her defend agents that reject things because it "triggers" them to realize that all of this rejecting after the first page garbage is detrimental to writing as a whole.
But that's how most business works, destroy the industry for a quick buck.
That's because this video is about the rules of the industry rather than the art? This guidelines are not at all very restrictive btw. They sound restrictive at first, because the examples she gives are things that evoke imagery of the status quo mass produced mediocre novels. But I've seen a lot of examples getting thrown around here in this comment section of novels that "broke" those rules but got published and were critically acclaimed. But here's the thing; they didn't break the rules. They just followed the rules in a different way than most people chose to.
I think maybe my manuscript was rejected because I folded each page into a separate origami animal and then mixed them all together in a giant box.
PLOT TWIST: The book had nothing to do with origami.
Should have used scented paper. (See above)
Everyone... you have to stick with it!!! Keep submitting your work to as many publishers as you can! I mean if I gave up after the 27th time I was rejected... I NEVER would have gotten rejected a 28th time!!!
Um, I don't think that publishers ever accept a manuscript if it isn't submitted to them by a reputable literary agent.
@@Glicksman1 lol
Publish your book yourself, it’s very easy. You don’t need these agents. Be brave, you can do it.
@@alandavies3727 if no one wants your book I don’t think that just “publishing it yourself” could be a solution…
@@jugiujulia it is, but Amazon is full of stuff published works. literally bursting.
Page 1: "In the Beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth..."
Publisher: Unrelatable! You need to CONNECT with the reader! Rejected. NEXT!
Velocitor, Good one!
Or how about this:
"It was the best of times. It was the worst of times"
Doesn't make any sense.
Rejected!
Next!
You could probably do this on any of the classics...
Page 1: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Publisher: Vague setting, a little "wordy." And what's with this supernatural protagonist anyway? NEXT!
"Call me Ishmael."
You call THAT an opening sentence! That doesn't tell me ANYTHING!
REJECTED!
@@Voteouttheriffraff It's funny that you wrote about, "In the beginning." That's the opening sentence of my book I'm writing.
"In a hole there lived a hobbit."
Holes are outdated and what even is a hobbit?
Rejected!
The thing is, I've read some books published in the last few years that break all of these rules and still sucked me in.
I would argue that more important than any of these things is having a strong narrative voice.
A great example is Uprooted by Naomi Novik.
It starts by telling not showing, not much action or dialog, and info dumps for the first 3 pages. Yet I've never talked to anyone who was unable to get past the first few pages. But the one thing the opening to the book does have is a very strong narrative voice form the POV of the main character.
I agree.
If I had a nickel for every time some hack defended their piece of crap writing by comparing themselves to bestselling authors, I'd be able to associate with a better class of people.
@@wclark3196 I don't remember asserting that I was or wanted to be a writer. And even though I do that point is irrelevant to what I was getting at in my comment. Which is that the advise given in the video is not necessarily accurate and that people shouldn't take what is said as rules.
The other thing to note is that she is/was an agent (or editor, not sure which) so her advice caters to what she would look for in a submission. But there are other agents/editors out there that might not share her opinion and would be interested in a piece that doesn't follow the advise given here.
Coffee Daydreams Don’t mind Clark... he is a big Troll!
@@erinhand6004 haven't read your writing, but stand by my comment. I'm in multiple writing groups and read a lot of stuff from unpublished writers. They could almost all benefit from following the advice in this video. The ones who never get better are the ones who compare their work to accomplished authors.
This is one of the most bitter comment sections I've ever seen, lol.
you're welcome
I've read many thoughtful comments actually, and I've seen much worse.
If you consider this a bitter comment section, then you must stay to the nice side of UA-cam. Lol.
I have only read a handful of comments. Some do sound bitter. But, I get why. Writers, like any artist, don't want to follow norms. We each have a unique voice. But, I found the video very informative. I subscribed halfway through the video. Normally, I don't subscribe until I I have seen several videos that I like.
Writing advice should always be taken with a grain of salt and put into the proper context in the mind.
A lot of rejected white dudes in here.
This video: "Give me all these details. Sensory details. Reasons to root for your character. An awareness of the setting. Details, please!"
Also this video: "Don't fill your opening pages with details. Readers don't want them, they make the story boring, and agents will reject you."
azuarc I wish she had explained that it’s about moderating the details at a time. Little by little (or a lot if the scene requires it). That’s what being a writer is about: knowing when to put something and how much.
azuarc there’s a difference between having a sequence where a character says things and does things that reveal traits and reasons for why we should root for them and giving an exposition dump in the beginning of your story.
@@Air_Serpent I think she did articulate that! She definitely said don’t info-dump, but instead release the information that need to be known as it comes up.
tbf sensory details=/= info dumps
Think of your story as if it was a movie. Before the intro you need to show a trailer that invites the reader to continue reading.
As a hobby writer, I am always interested in these sort of advice, but in some aspects I feel quite uneasy. A book is a piece of art and at the very end there are no rules in art. It really bothers me that we have general guidelines on how to produce a book, instead of creating what is in our mind. I would not feel all right if I would have to bend myself, just to fit into this industry. I am aware that it is business what we are talking about, but one editor isn't able to decide what is good and bad.
(So I like that you used the term "Not ready" instead of "Bad".)
Afterall, don't drown in selfdoubt, if you get rejected. Your work is probably not the problem
All right is two words.
@@mikebrines5708 That would deny a word almost a century of usage. 'Alright' is gaining traction, though still not considered the grammatically correct choice. I think at the minute it is on the verge of becoming a hybrid spelling.
I would not be surprised to see it become the new 'altogether' or 'already' in the next hundred years or so.
@@allihavearepasta-basedthou2890 'aight
The best art is made by people who know the rules but also know when and how to break them to the best effect
I imagine this is advice for getting published, if you're writing primarily for yourself than that's awesome. Nothing wrong with that, just like someone who paints purely to make art.
Recently, I read a book where all the info was sprinkled in very conveniently just before you needed it. It made things very predictable on a page by page level and very deus-ex-machina as a whole. I think getting the pacing of your information right is really quite difficult.
I do this. I hate it. But it's a first draft so IDGAF at the moment. I'll fix it in a later draft, I just want to get the plot finished first.
The real trick to sprinkling info in when needed is to pretend it was sprinkled in for some other reason. You should be trying to achieve as many different narrative goals as possible in a single paragraph. Establishing character motivations, advancing plot, foreshadowing future events, fleshing out character relationships, character development, etc, etc. Stories become super predictable when the text only achieves one such goal at a time. Narrative density is how you achieve that "intelligent story" feel where you don't see things coming when it was clearly established.
@Nintariz Probably. But we all need to start somewhere, and not everyone intends to be a writer. This advice is incredibly useful for helping readers identify what exactly is wrong with a book they really think sucks. And that latter reason is why I posted it here.
On the contrary, it can work quite well in comedy. Pretty early on (page 2), you learn my MC is the Chosen One, and is prophecized to defeat the 17-foot demon Zoltar in battle to save the planet of Nebula 6 Zed. About page 30, well before the MC reaches the planet, you learn that Zoltar is actually a pretty good dude, and the prophecy is a bunch of bullshit. But the MC doesn't find that out, so the journey goes on until he arrives and predictably is not needed.
Why? Because the climax isn't important. It's about the journey.
@@RyMann88 True, don't stop and edit until you're done, otherwise you'll never get finished.
I don't claim your wrong, you're very likely 100% correct about these things affect getting published, I also think this is what's wrong with books today. Everything conforming to the exact same mold, all stories are the same, sound the same and run the same.
Absolutely true. The question still remains--do you wanna get published or not?
News just in: creativity today - books, movies, TV - is all about more of the same. Its why if one thing works you get a sequel, next series, etc. These are companies and their only interest is cash.
@@dionysiaex5538 Yep.
If you're somebody that likes a niche thing, even if it's high quality, tough luck, people don't care. They want mass appeal to make money. Not an incredible story that only caters to the few with the same interest.
Books ain't different from movies where transformers and the like is making a lot of money even though the movies are god awful.
@@Londronable yes. But people that writes by taste maybe want to make something that they like, not something like transformers movie.
well, i ask myself the question... is this what it takes to get your foot through the door? I think of it like teeny bop pop musicians. they have to have ghost writers write their songs, wear the skimpy outfits, use autotune, and sing about failed relationships even thought they're 16 years old, for their first album. after that, they can dress how they want, write their own songs, and sing about topics that actually matter to them. I don't know these things, but i suspect writers that already have a fan base can get more original works published and marketed well than unknowns who's work goes straight into the infinite mass black hole of slush piles. or would that make it a white hole? hmmm... well, bleached or not it's not a good hole to go in!
"Her'es how you can write like everyone else, so you be dull and succesful!"
Aaaaaand this is why all books read the same these days.
Now if they could just standardize the sizes of books, for bookshelf sake.
Go back 50 years and people would still be saying the same things. The point is to understand that at any given moment, industry standards represent the status quo. Yes, any really good art transcends the status quo. But you need to learn to write in the mould before you break the mould. Remember that George Carlin was a good clean comedian for a number of years before he dared to challenge a certain way of doing things. First establish yourself in the industry model. Then when you break iyt you can do so with more competence, experience, and credibility.
@Kate 64 yeah they do, there very close.
I would hope that if my work is rejected because the content is triggering to an agent that they hand it off to another agent. Like you say, with no conflict there is no story. How is it fair to reject something because an agent doesn't like the elements of the plot that cause the conflict to begin with?
Agents who get triggered should really go work somewhere more appropriate - local insane asylum might do the trick, or a collective for neurotics maybe.
@@MarkJones-hc9pf Ok boomer
@@ddshocktrooper5604 Ok moron.
@@MarkJones-hc9pf Ok boomer
@@MarkJones-hc9pf Like, I could explain how ridiculous the comparison you've made is, since unlike the brain surgeon the agent shouldn't be expected to deal with poorly written rapey smut at every turn when they work at publishing body that deals mostly with teen romance novels. But I can see that sort of nuance is lost on you because you just want to be mad at SJWs or whatever. So that's why I'm not bothering, and just responding with "Ok boomer".
And this is why I would get bored to death if I read only very modern fiction (=the same book cut and pasted all over again).
holy shit she gave me a light bulb moment. moder sci fi authors suck. they are numerous and they write lots of terrible books that fill up my kindle store.
why?
because nasty femiviles dominate the editors industry. just like how they ruined hollywood theyve fucked books by rejecting mascualine penmanship.
fuck me it all fits
You must have zero creativity if you think the rules she listed are at all restrictive. The things a story must have are so ridiculously vague they could be anything. Conflict =/= physical battles. You could write a compelling short story about someone's internal struggle over whether or not to get up from the couch to go take a shit, or continue watching the football and hold it in. It would still follow all the rules she listed.
You could drip feed flashbacks to their past, where they shat themselves in the 3rd grade and got laughed at by their peers. This story thread has a lot of potential. You can turn basically everything into a compelling narrative if you try hard enough.
@@ddshocktrooper5604 you missed her true restrictions. Millennial SJW must like the content of your story.
@@TheBelrick That's not even true. True for some publishing houses for sure, but not all. None of the restrictions she outlined here have anything to do with SJWs or whatever. It'll take them far more than 1-5 pages to notice that anyway unless you're a super shit writer who tells instead of shows.
@@ddshocktrooper5604 Super shit writers who tells instead of shows is the very definition of writers on both Kindle AND hollywood movies since SJW took over and theyve fucked both
"signs of a newbie writer"... so basically you have to start off being an expert...
That's your takeaway here, for real, or are you just being bitchy for it's own sake? Obviously no one has to start off as an expert and it's literally not possible to do so. But you do have to get pretty good before you should reasonably expect a professional publishing house to want to invest in you. You wouldn't practice football for a week and then wonder why no NFL team is willing to sign you. Publishing novels is the same, to be published by the big names you need to approach them already looking like you know what the hell you're doing.
@@chriswhinery925 I know. You're absolutely right. I suppose I just hate being a noob and this video does speak of many things I was doing wrong with my work. (I did give the video a like). Sorry about that.
@@alejandrorios8386 Don't be too sorry. A lot of other jobs offer the chance to get an education first - where you get paid for ,not where you have to pay for. Writing is different.
And I read a lot of books where the author definitely wasn't an expert (and it shows).
The good thing is: You can claim to be a young writer until the age of 35-40 years old!
Not an expert. just professional. it's signs of an untrained writer. signs of a writer that doesn't understand what publishers or the writing industry wants. so yes, a newbie. a newbie that hasn't done the basic homework of watching a few youtube videos about the industry they want to succeed in. it's not an insult. just a statement of fact that should be learned from. (nice apology btw- respect).
No, you just need to write a million words and throw them away (having learnt what you did wrong) before you're writing anything that people will pay money for.
I hate to be a downer but if I'd be still interested in traditional publisher's dinosaur ways, this video would've made me want to give up writing completely.
The video is supposedly about rejection reasons within the first page or first few pages BUT you supposed to show don't tell, BUT don't give too much exposition BUT introduce your main character AND introduce the world or scene AND give your character a voice the editor can connect to AND follow a couple overused structuring ways to build your story BUT be fresh because they might not like tropes, AND avoid subjects that may or may not trigger certain editors.
Whatever happened with creativity and the desire to tell a story?
If there is like 2-3 ways my story can be structured in order for an editor to even consider my writing from start to end, that alone already strangling creativity. Not to mention that someone picking up a book and it starts in the middle of some action scene, everyone can already tell that the next segment will be either a "Previously..." flashback or time will progress on a linear path but we will get to know the background via exposition or dialogue.
This is why traditional publishing will follow cable TV down the drain. Getting published by them requires authors to follow a maze of unwritten rules that may or may not apply and individual editors and publishers who stick to their own set of rules rigidly and not allowing the author to be judged based on the entire story.
I don't mean to disrespect the honest and hard working editors who not only comb through tens of thousands of pages yearly, catching mistakes and being constructive. I have nothing but respect for them, but the traditional publishing industry in general became some sort of annoying gate-keeping dinosaur considering writing only on its estimated commercial value. The industry is only there for the sake of being there. Self serving and acting kind of like a boss-monster at the end of level so writers would need to fight it and still be screwed by the ever moving goalposts.
If I wan't to write a film-noir style slow burn detective story in a sci-fi environment, I will do just that and won't let all these requirements stand in the way of starting with world building and exposition, because readers differ wildly. Some hate it, some are rabid fan of it and don't even want to read anything that doesn't start by allowing them to get settled in the world before the story proper would pick up.
Honestly it's just a persistence game. None of the rules talked about in this video are hard and fast ones, there's examples all over every genre of people who broke these rules getting published and being super successful. You're selling your book to the publishers and it's just like any other sales job, lots of rejection with an occasional yes. Just got to shop it around and hope for the best, and in the meantime keep writing so that your next one will be better. Brandon Sanderson wrote 12 novels before he found a publisher who wanted to put one of them out. Those who persist are often the ones who succeed.
Yeah, I'll be self-publishing my book when I finish it. it costs more up front, but I'm not giving up the story I want to tell in order to abide someone else's rules. If I did that, it would cease to be my story.
@@johnterpack3940 you do know amazon will do it for free? Its royalty based. No upfront costs. You upload document, design cover, and presto. Buy an author copy at cost and set price of book to public.
That’s why many authors nowadays turned to online publishing.
It's really a matter of 'is this book interesting?' A subjective criteria but if you want someone to invest their time and money into your work, then they need to at least find your book interesting. Editors have vast slush piles of manuscripts and are looking for reasons not to publish 99.9% of what they've received. And if you think that's bad, imagine how tough it is to get readers to give new authors a passing glance in the paperback racks--let alone have them actually purchase your novel. Why bother with Paul Newnovel when there's proven names like Stephen King and John Grisham just a few rows above?
First page: Once there were four children whose names were Peter, Susan, Edmund, and Lucy.
Editor: BORING! Non-original, typical...
Loll
A long time ago, in the galaxy far away...
Editor: Exposition!!!!
I think Meg's words of advice are awesome for new writers starting out, or even writers who are only on their first project. But when you've been in the game long enough, and have even been validated by having agents and other editors confirm you're on the right path, her advice is really the advice of an investor who's looking to get a return on her profits by putting her money in what's been proven to sell. Nothing wrong with that...but I can tell you I'm one of those authors who opted out of a contract with my Literary Agent because I couldn't write with her voice in my head telling me what she would prefer. My work has to be my voice.
I appreciate the advice sincerely, however I feel like there are too many of these kinds of videos all over UA-cam regarding the opinions of these agent or editor types from these publishing houses that basically look to what sells more to market than what is good writing in general and there is a big difference between the two. I would take these videos with a grain of salt contrary to what they may say, there is not a perfect formula in getting published. Everyone’s success story is usually quite different from the next one. I also am a believer that luck matters too, some people have it while most don’t. Consequently, I do think there is no greater reward than having written a book that makes you happy and gives a sense of mission and purpose in writing it .Just my thoughts.
Yeah, I know this as well. A lot of videos are very cookie cutter just like the cookie cutter advice they give
There is no greater agony than bearing an untold story inside you
-Maya Angelou
Creating my “character’s profiles” is one of my favorite parts of creating a story. I write all sorts of details about the character that may never come into the story, but gives me a total sense of who they are for my job of writing them.
9:20 'her heart *beating* in time with the war drums.'
The word 'beating' is simpler than 'rattled', hearts tend not to rattle like a small hard object inside a hollow box, it connects the heart with the drums which *are* beaten, and phonetically, it flows better.
Yeah, I've never heard a drum rattle
True. That sentence confused me.
Yep, it gave a different mental image to me.
I would replace 'beating' with 'thumping'. These are war drums, war is brutal.
I'd still use rattle because I'm an idiot.
Thanks for showing every one to ignore going to agents and just go to amazon to self publish instead.
Lol, pretty much
I read a novel once that broke all of those. It was confusing as hell.
It got:
1: published by a real publisher.
2: awards.
Ásgrímur Hartmannsson welcome to the soulless machine that is much of modern day publishing
I prefer books starting slow, there is nothing I hate more than an action scene right in the beginning. I don't know those characters, I don't care for them. I don't know who they are, what world they are living in, wehn it comes to military space sci-fi it is often hard to judge what is actually happening, what kind of technological/political environment they operate. I don't know anything at this point, and throwing me smack in the middle of a supposedly exciting scene is the reason I remove the book from my kindle. And generally avoid this author from that point on.
I'm the opposite. I don't want an exposition dump. Why should I care for your characters, if your writing is boring from the start? Why should I not read history books instead of your fiction? I don't necessarily need action, but I need interesting writing that makes me go "this author knows how to write"
@Nintariz books starting slow will always be boring. Why should I learn about this books history/beginning? There are millions of books, not to mention it's competing with stuff like comics and movies as well.
There's a general 3 episode rule in TV series because maybe the first episode is setting things up and episode 2 and 3 is really where the impact lies, however, with the amount of content coming out (and the amount that's already out), I only have a 1 episode rule. If you really detract my attention in even the first episode, then I am dropping that series. For me, it's the same with a book. If your prologue can't entice me to want to learn why that event happened, I'm not eager to find out.
@@GameFuMaster You do realize that all good books follow a specific rule of thumb, right? Mostly every terrible book I've read starts right off with some big action scene happening, some characters I'm supposed to care for (but know nothing about) dying, a war being fought for reasons I do not understand, etc. It's all an incoherent mess. A Song of Ice and Fire (the most successful television show to ever come from a series of novels) did not start off immediately with the Red Wedding or the Battle of the Bastards; it took its time, developed its characters, absorbed many into its world. The same can be said for other highly successful works, from the Hobbit to Stephen King's IT.
You gradually ease your way into the Rising Action by introducing the problem, alongside reasons for why the readers should care about said problem and (especially) the characters involved. You never start your book off during (or in the middle of) the Rising Action. That's the number 1 sign of a bad book.
@@6ixlxrd sure, you don't exactly show the final boss fight in your prologue, but you do realize A Song of Ice and Fire didn't exactly slow either. The prologue started off with zombies. Then Chapter 1 (Bran) started off with him seeing an execution of a man, not his birth and him growing up to that point.
Your whole argument is moot, you clearly don't know what you're talking about.
@@GameFuMaster I fail to see how my argument is moot when those things held very little importance to the narrative being told. Bran seeing an execution in Chapter 1 is not the "action" you described, but merely George RR Martin following the very rules of establishing his world by showing instead of telling, by feeding you the exposition through details (in-fact, the actual execution itself was but a single paragraph). Chapter 2 further carried that with Catelyn's monologue directed at the religion-based lore of Westeros, then Chapter 3 with Daenerys and the political-based lore, and so forth. Literally no action happened, but the world and its rules were definitely (and slowly) established via a mixture of explicit and implicit exposition. It's clear to me that you are the one who doesn't understand what you're talking about.
This is how I approach the vocabulary issue. I love a thesaurus and i use one often, but only select words you actually know the meaning of and how to properly use. Don't chose the longest most obscure choice everytime, it makes you sound arrogant and is often unnecessarily confusing. Use it change up your writing, when you repeat the same word 2-3 times on a page. And don't use one in your first draft, leave it till later editing. Often I find myself looking for a word in a thesaurus that I just couldn't think of in my first draft or that i didn't know how to spell but i know it when i see it.
I agree with you on that. While I'm not a writer, anytime I've seen someone look like they've just used the thesaurus in Word I can't help but cringe. Prime example being in a story I read the other day where the author had used the word "febrile" to replace warm clearly not knowing it's actual meaning. It's used as a medical term to diagnose someone with a fever not to say they're warm.
Why use a word with six syllables when two will suffice?
When you don't use words often you will not have a full grasp on not only the full intended meaning, the dictionary definition, but you'll also lose or drop the "baggage" those words carry with them. It's why the word "Niggardly" is pretty much never used any more, even though we don't have a good replacement for it, leading to people using multiple words to describe a "morally lacking frugality" due to the words unfortunate similarity to a rather taboo word.
That is not even the best example as the baggage is pretty obvious, even to people who don't know the word. But some baggage isn't so obvious, and the concequences could be just as severe.
My primary usage of a thesaurus is when I know exactly what word I want to use, but can't remember for the life of me what it was. Plugging a synonym into a thesaurus usually helps me find the word I was looking for to begin with. Forgetting words all of the time sucks.
My story involves pirates: will burned parchment corners get me an agent faster?
It'll get that manuscript picked up immediately! (and then chucked in the fireplace)
@R Bray I honestly believe you.
@R Bray 11:53 am in my country. 😂
Thank you for referring to it as "telling vs showing" rather than "show, don't tell." That is kind of a pet peeve of mine.
However, just to be clear: Can we agree that there are times you _want_ to tell? Because writing isn't a visual medium, and not all things in the story is worth showing. Sometimes you just want to get a certain piece of information across as quickly as possible so you can move on to more interesting and relevant stuff.
this. A movie does showing better than telling. Meanwhile literature relies more on telling. We need to know the lore, understand and grasp it
@@theprocrastinator6813 I really do think "show, don't tell," worded like that, makes a lot more sense for screenwriters and film director than for literary writers.
Though, also, I understand there is this annoying tendency with some teachers where they will _teach beginners wrong on purpose,_ to eliminate bad habits early.
So, for example, you tell a novice writer to _never_ show, because showing tends to be a problem for beginners, _then_ you try to fix the damage you caused by letting them know it's actually okay to show on occasion. I'm... kinda skeptical to this approach.
@@RelativelyBest are you referring to the showing, where they actually depict pictures from time to time? Yea if thats the case i agree that it can ruin the whole experience, depending on the scene. Everyones visions of the characters and setting differs from reader to reader, if they see the picture, it can sometimes kill the immersion.
Perhaps better as dialogue weaved with scenes rather than showing v telling. You cant show anything in a book unless there are pictures 😁
It’s not that you cant tell, but you can’t just ONLY tell. Look at a book you got and see how it uses telling and how it uses showing. It’s a mix of both.
Michael Crichton wrote a successful book about the saurus.
Readers were enraptured. Characters were en-raptored.
good ol' saurus
if your heart rattles you should probably see somebody about that
She was in the middle of a battle, so it's good to call on a "MEDIC!".
Balance and rotate the heart. Tighten the valves. Blood change with synthetic will let the heart run longer. Make sure to get state inspection and tag every year 😁
"It was a dark and stormy night..."
Lol
Lmao
The rejection rate from agents is much too high for my taste. Im tired of hearing "this isn't right for me" or we will not be going with" from people who don't even read a whole chapter of my book. I'll let the world decide if it's good or not and self publish it as an ebook. Then if it was meant to be, maybe someone will give it that chance to shine.
Don't bother with literary agents. All they want are the latest trends and cookie cutter manuscripts.
@@michaelcurtis5844 im not surprised. They'll take anything trending nowadays but stuff that could actually sell well gets thrown away. Star wars had dozens of rejections until the right person found it, now look at it now.....even if it is time to maybe stop but still. You would think this would say "oh maybe i should give something new a chance" but instead they go with stuff that already been overused.
Just don't expect wild success when self publishing. The reality of that market is that you can make a living if you can build yourself into a brand but you'll need to be prepared to spend a lot of time marketing yourself. Develop a strong social media game. Try to get on podcasts devoted to your genre. That kind of thing. People rarely win the lottery and become a smashing success without big money marketing behind them. It's a hard road with no guarantees, but I hope you make it!
@@chriswhinery925 trust me, i know its not a guaranteed success. Its just i cant deal with agents right now. That "night in shining armor" is less likely to find me because im not super popular.
But im also aware of the work it will take to self publish too. Right now i already have a website up, im just trying to build my social media now. Facebook and twitter aren't quite helping so im going to get an Instagram and see if that works. Im not quite sure how to get on a podcast, but ill look into that too.
In Germany there are about 100.000 books coming out every year. That are just the new books. Most of them will fail and find next to no readers. They just vanish in the mass of books. If the publishers would reject less and publish more there won't be any readers left.
And you have to find the right publisher for your book, too. I've one publisher I can work with greatly. The endresult is way better than the first draft.
On the other hand there was one publisher I hated. She was so not helpful and tried to correct things that were accurately researched ... if you have to discuss and defend nearly every plot point, that is kind of exhausting. And she was so politically correct that she totally missed her mark. Everything my male protagonist did was just bad. He was explaining something (he had more knowledge of than my female protagonist) and my editor was like "He is mansplaining things." etc. It was so horrible. In conclusion I would rather not publish my book at all than work with said editor again.
I am reading "Infinite Jest" and it breaks all these rules and lit them up in a bonfire, intentionally. And I am loving that book.
But there's not many DFW in the world. Geniuses can do what they damn like.
The first point is kinda funny when thinking of Lord of the Rings. It takes them about 100 pages to set out from the Shire and begin their adventure. My own story's adventure begins in the first sentence. XD Then goes back to show what happened earlier, later.
I only use thesauruses when I realize that I have used the same word several times in a row and need to switch them out. Or, when I'm about to write a word, and I'm slightly unsure if the meaning is correct.
@thanos1209 Yes, I know. Which is why it's fun to compare to an old book like LoTR. Don't you think? :)
Same, on a lot of points.
Bear in mind that with LoTR, you're comparing the cream of the crop to nothing instead of comparing it to everything else like it. And the truth is a lot of people actually don't like those books because of the way they're written. Most people who are fans are only fans because of the movies. That's the truth.
Same.
@@babybirdhome If my friends and I are fans of the books because we liked the books, then there have to be a lot more than what you are saying. We just hang out and play nerd games. What are the odds we all agree the books are good based on what you have said?
Secondly, I think modeling a book after one that you love is what makes writing good and improves the industry, and that is exactly what agents don't understand. Safe and easy are what agents like.
It's fascinating to see how much of the Robert McKee doctrine has spread to the literary world. I work in UK Television and I did McKee's course in London about 25 years ago. I recognise almost all the points here from the advice he was handing out to aspiring screenwriters back in the early 90s.
Author : "Call me Ishmael.
Some years ago - never mind how long precisely - having little or no money in my purse, and nothing particular to interest me on shore, I thought I would sail about a little and see the watery part of the world"
Editor: Info dump! Rejected! I am SO smart!
But Call me Ishmael is so classic, and to tell the truth, carries a LOT about character. We don't know if it's his true name or if he just chose a nickname. His father's name? Someone who inspired him? But you are right, it probably would be rejected. *mentally hugs poor Moby Dick*
*Sends book to an editor*
"Oh no, this book isn't finished or ready"
... Yeah, that's why we send it to an *editor* ?
Editors/publishers want to invest as little time as possible in order to maximise profits, they're not going to hold a newbie's hand through the final eight drafts.
Well then say goodbye to new authors, I guess.
@@SupachargedGaming At least to the ones who can't get to basically the finished product on their own. Many can. And are.
Find writer buddies who can play editor for you. Or pay a pro.
*golfclap*
@@SupachargedGaming Oh, is that what you meant from the start? I figured you meant send it to a publisher/agent who would have *their* editor help to finish it. I've had people think that before. And no.
The best advice I ever got was, "Read outside your genre." I understand reading modern books. I do. But I also love Fante, Bukowski, Hemingway, Miller, Steinbeck. I've never read Never Night. The premise sounds intriguing, but it's not original. Reading the writers above won't disable a new writer. Reading outside their comfort zone will only strengthen them.
Indeed, every genre follows most of these rules at their core, but do so in a completely different way. By reading many different genres it expands your thinking to consider other design choices one would not normally think of if they only read a narrow selection of works.
This advice was given to me and I wanted to share it with all of you.
“Writing is a way of clarifying your thoughts on a matter. It also has the advantage that it forces you to make all your thoughts and beliefs on a given topic consistent. This point improves your credibility in a discussion because you then have a clear - unambiguous - explanation for all aspects of the topic. (Too often, many people's arguments are "rather ambiguous" and often downright contradictory.)
It's worth noting that experienced people will often describe - in detail - what they are seeing in a technical investigation (i.e. what do I see in the microscope/photograph/scene etc). These - detailed -descriptions are then included somewhere in the final report.
In summary, writing forces you to clarify your thoughts on a topic and then notice "fine details" you may have otherwise missed. Bringing all those "fine details" into one - consistent - story makes the difference between a credible report and a "not so credible" report.
Writing - in itself - is a worthwhile activity as it helps you to grow in understanding. This is a goal that is quite apart from selling your writing."
- Dennis Murphy
i wonder, can you name name at least one or two real literature masterpieces that would follow these platitudinous guidelines? it all sounds like a recipe for a cheap generic pulp.
So how did 50 Shades happen? I picked a random page and it immediately felt like ameteur fan fiction. When I found out that's what it was previously I was Shook. I didn't expect to be right. Lmao.
Rhetorical question, by the way.
It's genuinely terrible writing, and yes it started as a fan-fiction slash blog, Twilight erotica. The author removed the Twilight references and self-published (ebook, on-demand). Because of the kinky nature and a then lack of woman-orientated erotica (particularly kinky vs romance erotica) it garnered a fanbase of frustrated middle-aged married women, basically via word of mouth. News of the success hit the news, then Vintage picked it up based on the existing popularity. I know you said rhetorical question, but the fact it was self published and not editor-chosen is relevant.
Darth KEK - Oh wow I didn't know it was originally self published. That makes a lot more sense. Thanks for sharing!
Darth KEK It’s not fair that she gets money and fame from it when it was fanfic. And I know you won’t believe but there are fanfics out there that are well written and would deserve money and fame more.
What I find mind boggling is why Stephanie Myer didn't sue E.L. James for plagiarism by profiting from a Twilight fanfic. She'd still have grounds for a lawsuit even after changing the character names.
It wasn't exactly a secret that she ripped off Twilight and turned into a smutty fanfic....
Whatever...
The lesson of 50 Shades is all these so called rules only apply if you're unheard of or unpopular. If you're known and/or popular the standards suddenly disappear.
I've only ever gotten two personalized rejections on my book. (Meg herself gave me a form-letter rejection.) One wrote me a very nice, detailed letter about how much she loved my sample chapters but rejected me anyway because it was "just not the right fit" and gave me no indication of what needed improved. The other said "I just didn't connect with your characters," but I doubt that had anything to do with weak voice.
Sometimes I think when they say you're "not the right fit" what they're actually saying is, "I don't think it's marketable at this time" for whatever reason. Sometimes it all about money and what they think will sell and not about whether they think it's any good or not.
@@happychaosofthenorth It is understandable that money is a concern because it is a business and needs to survive financially.
The other reason for rejection is that you subject/topic doesn’t fit the publishing house.
@@happychaosofthenorth Yeah "not the right fit" sounds like code for "we think we'll lose money". Publishing companies are for profit businesses, it's to be expected.
I imagine most Literary agents have quite narrow ideas about what they're looking for (whatever is currently popular) and pick up only the manuscripts that tick every box of their agenda... getting published if your work is good is likely more to do with having a thick skin and being persistent than anything else.
Honestly, this is both a
Reminder of how far I’ve come and how meticulous I need to be to get farther.
Thank you :-)
Literally, this channel is the best on UA-cam. Meg you are an amazing educator! Ty🌸
I watch a surprising number of videos about writing/publishing books for someone who doesn't even write what am I doing here?
As purple as that passage was, the correction was dead cold.
it definitely wasn't yellow
Your videos like this one or treasure trove of information, a really great place to start.
Thank you.
This was incredibly helpful! Thanks so much for creating these videos.
Good info as I am just about to start my first edit and I think I avoided most of them. Just finished my first draft... I will admit writing is more fun than editing.
I agree, writing is more fun but I've found that rereading (editing) with a critical eye is usually a good thing. I tend to pick up on bits that either I should add, don't need in the story or should rewrite for clarity, especially that last bit. Good luck sir.
Sometimes, a slight edit is a chapter worth of value
If you don't yet know the Writing Excuses podcast, that's another excellent resource
I dunno, I have limited experience with both but what I have done of them (mostly in a professional technical writing context) I've found editing oddly satisfying. Correcting something up to be better than it was is a good feeling.
That's why editors get paid and most writers do it for free.
I’m a indie author but I still found this information extremely valuable. You literally gave gold writing advice on top of what editors and agents look for
It actually confirmed why I avoided agents and went the self publishing route.
I appreciate the information you’ve provided.
Thanks so much.
If these "editors" become so "triggered" over content in someone's manuscript that they cannot properly judge a submission, those are not professional editors and should NEVER be in that position.
Exactly..
Yes, they are. They are all representative of a cross sect of the community. If you've failed to research agents properly, that's your problem. The vast majority tell you what they don't want to read, so it's not rocket science to heed it.
@@lizziebkennedy7505 As a professional, they should be able to rise above their petty wants
and do their jobs without bias or rancor. This is part and parcel of being a professional at almost anything.
@@danstory4286
That isn't how getting an agent works. They're not doctors. They don't have an obligation, professional or otherwise, to publish your book, especially when they have hundreds of other books coming in. Their job is to make a judgment call based on what the think will sell and what they like. Why would they want to waste their time on a book they don't feel comfortable with.
@@kayleighbrown459 I don't know about that. Being a pro at just about anything requires putting aside your personal likes and dislikes. When I was a mechanic, I couldn't pick and choose which kinds of cars I would work on or not. "Sorry, Boss. I don't work on Volvos," would get me fired.
1:10 so basically for my book I have to find a publisher who can handle real life horror and violence for my novel
Even better, give them a demonstration of the violence. Make them feel the horror as you break in, show your true monstrous form and chase them through their office, chanting that the key to stopping you is in the novel. They need to be motivated to read or they’ll never finish it.
While starting with heavy topics immediately may not be a wise move for pacing reasons, though it can certainly set a certain tone, it strikes me as unprofessional for an industry professional to allow their personal issues relating to a touchy topic like alcohol, abuse, etc. to interfere with properly evaluating a work's merit as a work. If they can't handle it, they should have a colleague deal with it.
A lot of of classic works touch upon sensitive and serious topics, too, so I can only assume such an editor who cannot read fictional depiction of whatever causes problems for them has an impoverished baseline for what they've read in the past. Which then raises questions about whether or not that editor should be working in certain genres/age categories/etc. in the first place, that may result in them coming across that material to begin with, if they're immediately going to reject it.
EldritchLurker AMEN!
Our job is to know our markets. No point explaining to people who think it's 'personal', but agents understand the micro- segments of a market. The market for extreme and graphic content is very small, and doesn't tend to buy new retail books. Trouble is a lot of writers don't seem to know that their content is extreme and graphic and horribly decontextualised (gratuitous). That's because they rarely read widely in their own genre. They insist it's all just personal preference. But agents have to be able to SELL THE BOOK TO PUBLISHERS. That's the point.
Always a pleasure listening to you and your shared pointers! I am in the midst of writing a collection of short-stories and I have been struggling with setting the right amount of character depth and description in each of them. I surely have noted down some of the brilliant points you made and can’t thank you enough. 🤗 Your videos help me a lot, although I wish I knew you personally so that I could have you as my mentor. Take care and more power to you! x
This is really good content that I never really thought about. Thanks for explaining in-depth! Definitely helped!
When people say they feel triggered everyone else thinks it's a death threat ☹️
I can't believe the reasoning at 1:20, even if the agent, or editor is "triggered" that shouldn't be a valid reason to reject a book.
Acctually some people have ptsd i have a trigger word that litterily makes me cry and freak out, give people some slack
An editor having PTSD or suffering any kind mental health I can sympathize with but their disorder shouldn't be the reason for a book being rejected otherwise we wouldn't have stories such as a child called it etc.
Thank you so much for these tips! I'm preparing my manuscript and this has been incredibly helpful :)
This was so helpful! Thank you
Sounds like editors want cookie cutters stories.
They want celebrities and political figures.
I mean you can still use normal structures to create something original and interesting
sounds like you want an excuse for poor writing.
@@broccolinyu911
Great writing doesn't get you published or represented much in the same way great acting doesn't land you roles or Hollywood gigs.
@@PlayStationElation00 if at first you don't succeed, try again.
Not like Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, and Stephen King's books ever got rejected many times before they became renown.
"With no conflict, there is no story."
This is a problem I have with writers and their power fantasies. Their characters basically can beat everyone easily as the result of their power fantasy. It's incredibly annoying with roleplays
Please elaborate. Your comment was one that I found most interesting.
@@danstory4286
One of the things I notice, and this is something I see in animes now is that the main characters don't really have struggles of some sort. Like every challenge they come across is always easy to overcome. And because these challenges are easy to overcome, there is no form of character development. Because there's nothing at stake. There's nothing difficult that challenges the main character.
This is what these power fantasies are. Overpowered characters with no struggles whatsoever. They win every fight, they never lose, and they win in just seconds. Battles are always on sided.
This is what I would call "Writer's Ego"
@@danstory4286 It's not just fights either, although it is something I see happen a lot.
There's no character development. There's no struggle of any kind. No inner conflict. There's nothing about the character that makes them interesting. Like something they can't do even with all that power.
Like for instance, Saitama from One Punch Man has a good inner conflict despite his overpowering abilities. That inner conflict being his boredom with all that power. His job as a super hero sucks because of how easy it is. That's a good inner conflict because it's obviously something he can't resolve in just one punch. In fact, in his case, doing things in one punch makes the situation worse and that's good!
Now Goku is classic. Everyone loves Goku and we all know why. He's a powerful Super Hero who struggles to overcome a lot of challenges and strives to be better. Something we look up to.
Batman and Ironman are my favorites because they
e the ones who can struggle the most. Despite Batman and Ironman's intellect, they both still have conflicts to overcome. Like Batman's trauma of losing his parents, and his moral code behind the lack of killing even the villains. Ironman had trouble with his personal life due to his career as a super hero. And this all doesn't include the fact that they're mere human.
All of these are good conflicts that younger writers don't understand.
@@ViceN53X I would really like for you to read my work. I think your statements are thoughtful. Would you be willing to beta read for me? At least to analyze my heroes?
@@danstory4286 I suppose. Sure. . .
Thanks for the tips. I've definitely picked up some points on how to improve my writing.
Nicely explained about storytelling. There is a good video, I've been looking for a long, long time.
Lots of stuff is refused only later to become best selling worldwide - be it books or music or art.
Lots of people out there who think they know what they’re doing who don’t.
Jokes on them.
🤣
Don't discount the amount a publisher is willing to push a title and just dumb luck.
Also there are writers that call their own work as something that isnt good enough, when in reality its actually a decent story. im sure lots of authors out there also underestimate what they can acheive
True, but the way I see it is these people have to take risks with the work they're reviewing. If it flunks that's money lost, and it reflects negatively on them. So if they see any red-flags I don't blame them for rejecting it. The person taking the book is basically a salesman with a new item at the editor's door.
But the thing is is why would you want an agent to take on a work they're not interested in? If I, as a hypothetical agent, am simply not interested but end up accepting your work anyway, it's not going to get the best treatment possibly because I'm not simply not interested in vampire books.
Amber Forbes
That’s true.
But you also have things rejected because they just plain got it wrong ... arrogance sometimes? Or even ignorance?
Thank you for this video. You highlighted many important points that are helping me to write a story for a JRPG I am working on. I have been having trouble expressing to my team of writers the main points of our exposition and protagonist that would make the story more entertaining and readable!
10/10
Thank you for this video. It opened my eyes to many mistakes I've been doing. I'm certainly interested in learning more and will be watching more of your videos. Already subscribed! Great work and please keep it coming!
This video inspired me to rewrite the beginning of my first chapter -- and it's so much better now!! Thank you!
Alternative title: how to write a book nobody will remember or care about in just a couple months ✌🏻😁
Oh come on, it'll be just like the next book they read
Looking forward to your weird, hard to follow book that “breaks all the rules”
@@darkartsdabbler2407 I was surprised how many fans Joyce still has.
I've read a lot of comic books and magazines they do a lot of showing.
Thank you for this. It's giving me a lot to think about.
Thanks for this :) Always valuable content, I love it.
'Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man...' The Dude
Yeah but she is a gatekeeper- her opinion has power.
So basically a slow burn story with buildup gets rejected. So shoehorn in an explosion and your in. Sad.
Hello.
I'm trying to write a lightnovel about a guy who can "see" fictional characters manifest into the real world (as sort of spirit/ghost-like beings). Think of them as the 'soul of the book'. These spirits can make the difference between a horrible story and a bestseller: when a story is fragmented or un-memorable, it's because the spirit is unhappy with how the story was handled. Conversely, a spirit that is happy with everything equates to a story that is very expressive and relatable.
The protagonist works as a literary editor and utilizes these spirits to turn story drafts into a polished product. Interacting with these spirits often lead to a deeper insight on the reasons and the thought process of the author for writing his/her story.
For this type of premise, do you think I need to have high stakes for the plot? As you said, I want this to be just a "slow burn", slice-of-life kinda story. I do plan for one arc to have a plot where the author is considering suicide (and protagonist realizes this in time from his interactions with her story's spirit) but that is just for that one arc only. Rather than have heart-racing high stakes everytime, I want the spirits to be just a mechanism for the protagonist to understand the author, as well as himself, just a bit more below surface level.
As a reader, I hate slowburn. It's slow. A book is not like a movie. Makes the book hard to read.
@@queerlibtardhippie9357 "As a reader, I hate slowburn."
I guess Lord of the Rings and 1984 are out, then. 🙂
Awesome tips! Thank you for posting!
Heyy Meg!!!! Thanks a lot. It really helped me to understand a bit more about writing. Thanks again
Wait, I can't start my story with hundreds of pages of setup like Lord of the Rings, the best-selling book in the world except for the bible? Must have been a fluke that one.
The bible takes a long time to get going too. Didn't seem to hurt it much.
If you make the next Lord of the Rings, you can do whatever the heck you want. But, people like me are not writing the next literary classic that will transcend space and time and become legends and fairly good movies.
So I need to follow these rules.
@@tsuobachi there's a whole part 1 (old testament) until the inciting incident happens (the resurrection)
@@graciemartin4206 That was hilarious, haha! You nailed it. :)
Pretty much means I'm screwed, LOL. All my books are slow Burns.
Heck, the first book in one series is nothing but world-building and a small amount of Adventure
Years ago when I was in a college writing program the instructor told us if we are first time writers most publishing houses wouldn't be interested in a story told in first person. First person narrative voice is hard for most rookie writers to pull off and most seasoned writers have difficulty keeping the voice alive and fresh. My instructor strongly suggested that writers master omniscient narrator first before attempting first person voice. Somethings I didn't agree with her about but omniscient narration is really the way to go.
That is weird advice. Omniscient narrator is probably the hardest voice to master.
@@Jennifer-wr9si not really because the omniscient narrator has access to every character's thoughts, feelings, motives, desires and can talk about things the protagonist may not possess any awareness. This kind of narration allows the writer more range to move and reveal important information and scenes. The more you practice this method the more possibilities open up or at least that's what I have found.
@@Metatron141 I get what you're saying, but I agree with Jennifer. First Person is such a common narrative these days, and it effortlessly dominates the Teen/Young-Adult Fiction genres. It's so easy even 13 year-olds on Wattpad can start a popular series in it. Meanwhile, Third Person definitely has more freedom (and honestly far more benefits, depending on the story being told) but First Person is a lot easier to write than Third. In First, it's less like you're telling a story and more like you're addressing a group of friends, which is what's known as the "voice". You see that specific world from a single character's POV, and relate to those things the way that particular character does; if the voice is not interesting, the world is not interesting. But in Third, there's a required level of skill involved to successfully establish a voice (there are no "I" pronouns to establish relatablity), especially when multiple characters play a role in progressing the story. And each character needs to be fully capable of standing on their own outside of one protagonist's POV.
Popular First-Person novels like The Hunger Games, Divergent, and Twilight are far easier to dive into than popular Third-Person novels like IT and A Song of Ice and Fire. In First-Person, everything is black-and-white, with the entire world revolving around the protagonist; in Third-Person, the protagonist revolves around the world. If their world isn't believable, the protagonist isn't believable. The best example I can think of for that is the Hobbit.
Reading Assassin's Apprentice its first person past tense, haaah, my favorite book is king of that way but no quite, Name of the Wind
With first person narrative, you restrict your story to one point of view. Nothing is allowed to happen unless that particular character is on the scene.
Fantastic video! very helpful
A fantastic video with superb content. Thank you!
1:46 into this and I can stop watching. I already know the list and it sums up pretty easily. "Your book was rejected because editors and agents are terrible at their jobs"
Because they are recent college graduates with degrees they can't do anything with; and have never written anything beyond a term paper.
@@keithmarlowe5569 most of them are trained and qualified editors who cut their teeth on reading slush piles. They have seen it all. Especially the make authors who get so freaked out that the fierce scary lady didn't like the magnum opus.
@@lizziebkennedy7505That's an Interesting point. You bring to my mind Ralphy in Christmas Story imagining his teacher"s response to his story.
“In medias rice” sounds delicious!
9/10 with rice.
I think you mean in media res. (Latin)
Thomas Collins Obviously. She pronounces it as “rice”.
I believe you are owned the obligatory “whoosh” 🤦🏻♂️
This is super helpful information!
Thanks. I just discovered you. And I'm greatly encouraged by your sharing. Appreciate it.
Very helpful for my book, "White-tailed Kite". Checked them all off the list!