Speaking exclusive of religion,We often hear, follow your heart when in doubt, that means there is something else you can follow too. You have two options there. The mind and the heart. Yet we know both are inside of you, it comprises just one person. Can you answer how that is possible? No! We often ask these Limitless- God questions and want to understand with a limited mind! God is three in one! Period. Any object can be in different states of matter, you can accept that but not about God?
The easiest way to defend the trinity is to compare it with what the Bible says about God. If the two agree 100%, then that should confirm that the trinity is based squarely on Scripture. But is that the case? Well, judge for yourself: 1a. THE BIBLE says the Father-a single person-is the “only true God.” (John 17:3). 1b. THE TRINITY DOCTRINE says that “every Person [of the trinity] BY HIMSELF [is] God.” That’s THREE GODS! 2a. THE BIBLE says that “for us there is one God, the Father." (1 Cor. 8:6) 2b. THE TRINITY DOCTRINE says “we worship one God IN TRINITY.” 3a. THE BIBLE says the “Father is greater…” (John @) 3b. THE TRINITY DOCTRINE says: “In this trinity, NONE is greater…” 4a. THE BIBLE says Jesus is the Son of God. (John @) 4b. THE TRINITY DOCTRINE says “Jesus IS God,” which makes him a different God from the “one God in trinity." 5a. THE BIBLE says the “Father is greater…” (John @) 5b. THE TRINITY DOCTRINE say that “the whole three persons [of the trinity] are “co-equal.” 6a. THE BIBLE says the holy spirit is not God, but a possession of God and that he gives it to deserving ones. As 1 Thess. 4:8 says: “Therefore, whoever disregards this, disregards not a human being but God, who (also) gives HIS holy Spirit to you.” 6b. THE TRINITY DOCTRINE says that “the holy spirit IS God.” However, A Catholic Dictionary says: “On the whole, the New Testament, like the Old, speaks of the spirit as a divine energy or power.” It adds: “The majority of New Testament texts reveal God’s spirit as someTHING, not someONE.” 7a. THE BIBLE says that the Father is the ONLY person that “the true worshipers” (Christians) should worship. (John @) 7b. THE TRINITY DOCTRINE says: “The trinity in unity is to be worshiped.” So, is the trinity doctrine a Biblical teaching? Answer: absolutely not.
You seem to have a bad misunderstanding of the Trinity. As a trinitarian, let me go through your points and show where your misunderstanding has caused you to think that the bible is opposed to the Trinity. 1a. I agree that the Father is the only true God. The Son is also the only true God, and so is the Spirit. Trinitarianism teaches that there is one God. Jesus is not a seperate god from the Father. That would be tri-theism, a wicked heresy. 1b. The doctrine of the trinity teaches that there is one God. The Nicene Creed opens with, "I believe in One God, the Father Almighty". The Trinity does not consist of three beings, or three essences, or three gods. It is three persons (hypostsis) in one essence (substance, being, ousia). 2. You again seem to forget (or not be aware of) the Nicene creed, the central trinitarian creed, which opens: "I believe in One God, the Father Almighty". Trinitarians have always recognized that the title "God" can be used as a proper noun to refer to exclusively to the Father. You can see this in the Nicene Creed, Athanasius, Gregory of Nazianzus, Basil the Great, etc. This just shows that you're not very familiar with the doctrine of the Trinity, nor are you well aquianted with trinitarian authors. 3. The Father is greater than the Son (1) in comparison with the Son's human nature, and (2) relationally. Again, all trinitarians have always recognized that the Father is the source of everything the Son and the Spirit have. This is called the Monarchy of the Father. So the language of "one God, the Father" poses no problem to trinitarian theology, which afirms one God, the Father. 4a. Yes, Jesus is the Son of God. That's why he is refered to as God the Son. He is the Son of the Father. 4b. Saying Jesus is God does not make him different from "One God in Trinity". That just doesn't follow, unless you don't understand the Trinity. 5a. We already dealt with this above. Look up Monarchy of the Father. Read great trinitarian writers like Gregory of Nazianzus. 5b. The three persons of the trinity are co-equal in honor, dignity, substance, glory, and status. The only difference is on of relations, as mentioned above (the Father is the begettor of the Son, who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit is spirated, or "procedes", from the Father.) Again, this was delt with in number 3. 7. This is a terrible reading of John 4:23. Jesus is talki ng to the woman at the well, and the woman explicitly asks him: “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain; and you say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.” She is refering to the Jews and Samaritans worshipping the Father. Jesus responds and tells her how the Father will be worshiped, not that the Father is the only one to be worshiped. He says: "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him." His point is how the Father will be wroshipped (in spirit and in truth). Jesus is not saying tht he is not to be worshipped. In fact, when Thomas falls as his feet and worships Jesus (even calling Jesus "God"), Jesus calls those who do that "blessed". You should really try to understand the what the Trinity is before you critique it. I would recommend the writings of Saint Athanasius (On the Incarnation), Gregory of Nazianzus (Five Theological Orations), and Saint Basil the Great (On the Holy Spirit, On the Faith, Against Eunomius).
@@aaronmueller5802 As a trinitarian, let me go through your points and show where your misunderstanding has caused you to think that the bible is opposed to the Trinity. "1a. I agree that the Father is the only true God. The Son is also the only true God, and so is the Spirit.." Poor, Mr. Trinitarian, you just killed your entire trinity argument on the very first point. Since the Father is "the only true God" as Jesus said at John 17:3, then, God can't be a trinity, pure and simple. You see, the word "only" means, "to the exclusion of other." Since the Father is the true God to the exclusion of others, then, how many other true Gods can there be? Answer: *NONE!!* "The Trinity does not consist of three beings, or three essences, or three gods." Uh, didn't you just say that the Father is the only true God, the Son is the only true God, and the holy spirit is the only true God? Well, how many only true Gods is that? Isn't that three only true Gods? BTW, in prayer to his Father, Jesus called his Father "the ONLY true God." (John 17:3) By saying that, Jesus excluded himself and everyone else in the universe from being the ONLY true God. "Mr. and Mrs. Jones" have three children, named "Bill," "Bob," and "Barney." Would you say the "Joneses" have three individual "only childs"? "2. You again seem to forget (or not be aware of) the Nicene creed, the central trinitarian creed, which opens: "I believe in One God, the Father Almighty"." Your confusion continues. The Nicene Creed is not the source of the trinity doctrine. Instead, it is the Athanasian Creed that teaches the trinity doctrine. As the Catholic Encyclopedia says: "In the words of the Athanasian Creed: ‘the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." The Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed contradict each other. No wonder you're confused. A Catholic Dictionary clearly says: "The third Person [of the trinity] was asserted at a Council of Alexandria in 362…and finally by the Council of Constantinople of 381.” Did you get that, Mr. Trinitarian. The Nicene Creed was written in 325, but the trinity belief came into existence at two Catholic Councils, namely, the Council of Alexandria in 362, and the Council of Constantinople in 381. So, don't tell me that the Nicene Creed of 325 is the central trinity doctrine. At that time, the trinity belief didn't even exist!! "Jesus is the Son of God. That's why he is refereed to as God the Son." Oh, yeah??? Show me ONE BIBLE VERSE where Jesus is referred to as God the Son. And another thing, if God is a trinity and that Jesus is the Son of God, doesn't that make Jesus the Son of the trinity? "When Thomas falls at Jesus' feet and worships Jesus (even calling Jesus "God"), Jesus calls those who do that "blessed"." I would imagine that you are alluding to John 20:28. Now, tell me, where in that verse does it say Thomas worshiped a trinity of persons? After all, the Athanasian Creed says: "We worship one God in trinity." Do you think Thomas though Jesus was a three-person deity? I suggest that you look over the scriptures in your last post and then show me where any of them say or imply that God is "a unity of three [persons]," which is what the word "trinity" means.
@cbooth151 "Uh, didn't you just say that the Father is the only true God, the Son is the only true God, and the holy spirit is the only true God? Well, how many only true Gods is that? Isn't that three only true Gods?" No, because the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same one God. You keep misunderstanding this fundamental point. There is one "only true God". That one God is the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is one God, not three gods. The Son is not a different God than the Father. "Mr. and Mrs. Jones" have three children, named "Bill," "Bob," and "Barney." Would you say the "Joneses" have three individual "only childs"?" No, because those children have different essences. The persons of the Trinity have the same one divine essence. Just say you don't know what the Trinity is. "The Nicene Creed is not the source if the trinity doctrine" I agree, because the source is the bible, but if you think the Nicene Creed doesn't teach the trinity, you are badly confused. Do you even know what the Nicene Creed is? Rrad literally any document written in the 4th century, they know that the Nicene creed teaches the trinity. Let me quote a bit more of it for you: "And I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made." This is the creed recited every day by most Christians. If you don't think it teaches the trinity, what do you think it does teach? "A Catholic Dictionary clearly says: "The third Person [of the trinity] was asserted at a Council of Alexandria in 362..and finally by the Council of Constantinople of 381." Did you get that, Mr. Trinitarian. The Nicene Creed was written in 325, but the trinity belief came into existence at two Catholic Councils, namely, the Council of Alexandria in 362, and the Council of Constantinople in 381. So, don't tell me that the Nicene Creed of 325 is the central trinity doctrine. At that time, the trinity belief didn't even exist!!" The Nicene Creed was finished at the Coubcil of Constantinople in 381. So yes, the Nicene Creed teaches the Trinity. The Athanasian Creed comes later than 381 anyway, so you're still wrong on that point. Saying "the trinity belief didn't exist!!" is incredibly ignorant. Just because a belief is not articulated at a Council does not mean that belief does not exist. We can find multiple Christians writing over a century before 362 that belive the Holy Spirit is a person of the Godhead. Let me give you a few: “And at the same time the mystery of the oikonomia is safeguarded, for the unity is distributed in a Trinity. Placed in order, the three are the Father, Son, and Spirit. They are three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in being, but in form; not in power, but in kind; of one being, however, and one condition and one power, because he is one God of whom degrees and forms and kinds are taken into account in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”- Tetullian (Against Praxeas 2 [A.D. 216]). “We believe, however, that there are three persons: the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; and we believe none to be unbegotten except the Father. We admit, as more pious and true, that all things were produced through the Word, and that the Holy Spirit is the most excellent and the first in order of all that was produced by the Father through Christ”- Origen (Commentaries on John 2:6 [A.D. 229]). “[There is] one Holy Spirit, having substance from God, and who is manifested through the Son; image of the Son, perfect of the perfect; life, the cause of living; holy fountain; sanctity, the dispenser of sanctification; in whom is manifested God the Father who is above all and in all, and God the Son who is through all. Perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty neither divided nor estranged”- Gregory the Wonderworker (Confession of Faith [A.D. 265]). Not to mention the bible itself, which explicitly says "But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”- Acts 5:3-4 So how can you say that belief in the Trinity "didn't even exist!!" until 362? Pure ignorance. Furthermore, the main bishop of the Coubcik of Alexandria of 362 was Athanasius, who was at Niceae in 325! The divinity of the Holy Spirit was not at issue at the council of Niceae, so the first version of the creed didn't deal with it. It became an issue later, so the council of Constantinople dealt with it. By your logic, nobody believed in the bible until 363 when the council of Laodicea gave a canon list. That's obviously an absurd conclusion, yet you make the same argument about the trinity. "Oh, yeah??? Show me ONE BIBLE VERSE where Jesus is referred to as God the Son" Sure, it's the same bible verse that says all of our terminology has to be found word-for-word in the bible. "Do you think Thomas thought Jesus was a three-person deity?" No, because Jesus is not a three-person deity. No trinitarian teaches this. Jesus is one person. You really don't understand the trinity. This is why I recommend books for you too read, because your objections are still based on a complete misunderstanding of the basics of the Trinity. This verse does show that Jesus is God, which you deny. "I suggest that you look over the scriptures..." The Bible is very clear that: 1. The Father, Son, and Spirit are each God. (John 20:28, Acts 5:3-4) 2. The Father, Son, and Spirit are seperate persons (Luke 22:42, Matthew 28:19, John 16:7) 3. There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4, 1 Timothy 2:5, Isaiah 43:11) These are the central teachings of the doctrine of the Trinity. All of the nuances of the trinity are the logical consequences of these facts from the bible.
@@aaronmueller5802 "The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same one God. You keep misunderstanding this fundamental point." You keep stepping all over your own tongue. You claimed that "the Father is the only true God, the Son is also the only true God, and so is the Spirit." That's three "only one true Gods." Apparently, you can't count to three. At John 17:3, Jesus said that only his Father is "the only true God." If you could show me a verse that says the Father, Son, and holy spirit make up the same "only true God," that would be nice. However, you can't do that since the Bible says no such thing. "There is one "only true God". That one God is the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is one God, not three gods." The Athanasian Creed says: 1. "The Father is God." (God #1) 2. "The Son is God." (God #2) 3. "The holy spirit is God." (God #3) 4. "[The Father, Son, and holy spirit are one God." (God #4) Did you notice how the verb in the first three sentences changed from "is" to "are" in the fourth sentence? So, three separate Gods combine to make a fourth composite "one God." Jesus never taught such nonsense. To Jesus, his Father was not only his God, but also the God and Father of his apostles, and by extension, all true Christians. As he said to his apostles through Mary: "I am going to MY Father and YOUR Father, to MY God and YOUR God." (John 20:17) Do you get it now? According to the AC, three Gods make up a fourth "one God." "Those children have different essences. The persons of the Trinity have the same one divine essence. Just say you don't know what the Trinity is." Your confusion continues. How many "only childs" can be born in a family? Only one? Or more than one? Since Jesus referred to his Father as "the only true God," how many other "only true Gods can there be? Only one? Or more than one? Just say you don't know what the word "only" means. "The source [of the trinity] is the Bible." Really? Let's see. You said "the persons of the trinity have the same divine essence, right? Where does the Bible say that? Answer: *NOWHERE!!* But, don't take my word for it. Catholic John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘ESSENCE’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.” The Catechism of the Catholic Church adds: "In order to articulate the dogma of the Trinity, the Church had to develop her own terminology with the help of certain notions of philosophical origin: "substance" (rendered also at times by "ESSENCE" or "nature"), "person" or "hypostasis", "relation" and so on." Did you get that? The trinitarian term "essence" is not a Bible word. And what's more, the term originated with pagan Greek philosophy. "The Nicene Creed was finished at the Council of Constantinople in 381." Wrong again. The Nicene Creed was written in 325, decades before the Catholic Church invented the trinity teaching. As one Catholic website put it: "The Nicean Council, which met in 325, developed the Nicene Creed from the earlier Apostles' Creed, refining its wording so that Jesus' divinity, in addition to his humanity, was plainly expressed and proclaimed." Also, according to A Catholic Dictionary, it wasn't the Nicene Council, but the Councils of Alexandria and Constantinople that developed the trinity teaching in the years of 362 and 381. That's when a mythical third person was created to make a three-person deity. As ACD says: "The third Person was asserted at a Council of Alexandria in 362…and finally by the Council of Constantinople of 381.” So, is the Bible the source of the trinity? Absolutely not. One other thing. Did the Jews of the Bible look at the holy spirit as being a person? Not according to the following Catholic references... 1. “Although this spirit is often described in personal terms, it seems quite clear that the sacred writers [of the Hebrew Scriptures] never conceived or presented this spirit as a distinct person” (Edmund Fortman, The Triune God, p. 9). 2. “Nowhere in the Old Testament do we find any clear indication of a Third Person” (The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1912, Vol. 15, p. 49). 3. “The Jews never regarded the spirit as a person; nor is there any solid evidence that any Old Testament writer held this view…The Holy Spirit is usually presented in the Synoptic gospels (Matt., Mark, Luke) and in Acts as a divine force or power” (Edmund Fortman, The Triune God, pp. 6, 15). 4. “The Old Testament clearly does not envisage God’s spirit as a person…God’s spirit is simply God’s power. If it is sometimes represented as being distinct from God, it is because the breath of Yahweh acts exteriorly…The majority of New Testament texts reveal God’s spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God” (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. 13, pp. 574, 575). 5. “On the whole the New Testament, like the Old, speaks of the spirit as a divine energy or power” (W.E. Addis and Thomas Arnold, A Catholic Dictionary, 1960, p. 810). Did you get all of that? Since the Jews of the OT and the NT didn't believe in the holy spirit as being a person, then, the holy spirit can't be the third person of a three-person deity. In other words, there is no trinity.
@@aaronmueller5802 "Not to mention the bible itself, which explicitly says "But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”- Acts 5:3-4. So how can you say that belief in the Trinity "didn't even exist!!" until 362? Pure ignorance." Pure stupidity. If God is a trinity, where did Peter say at Acts 5:3, 4 that Ananias lied to the trinity? And besides, Peter knew who God was and that he wasn't a trinity. As Peter said at 1 Pet. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who in his great mercy gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." This is similar to John 20:17, where Jesus said to his apostles through Mary: "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." Clearly, Jesus' God was also his Father. > Sure, it's the same bible verse that says all of our terminology has to be found word-for-word in the bible." Hey, pal, it was _you_ who said Jesus was referred to as God the Son, yet, you can't tell me where that term is found in the Bible? Do you usually make claims you can't prove? "By your logic, nobody believed in the bible until 363 when the council of Laodicea gave a canon list." Not so. The fact is that the trinity is not a Bible teaching. In fact, not even the so-called Church Fathers believed in a Biblical trinity. As The New Catholic Encyclopedia says: "The formulation ‘One God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century…. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.” Face the facts. The trinity is not a Bible teaching.
*Nowhere in the bible is it said you must believe in a man-made doctrine of the trinity. Son of God is in the New Testament 40 times and 'God the Son is never mentioned. In addition John tells us why he wrote his gospel. Read John **20:30**-31 Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name. STOP THE HERESY!*
Yeah I won't be reading all that but skimming you seem to make so inaccurate assumptions about Trinitarianism but I guess your church has indoctrinated you follow a certain course.
A load of conjecture and imputing anti-bible teachings into scriptures taken out of context. These videos prove conclusively that the Trinity is false. No one puts out videos to debate whether gravity exists or not.
Philosophy and doctrine of man. Sad with their words they deceive you!! God has done it by himself and is alone and their is no other!!! Who is equal to him ? Is their any beside Him?
Hello Jesus is the Messiah The Son of God The Son of David The Son of man The man God has chosen to be his anointed king The man God will judge the world through The man God raised from the dead Jesus has a God There is no triune god in scripture Jesus said the Father is the only true God! John 17 3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.
The Trinity is not even in the gospel, never mind being central to it. This man made teaching, a product of Greek educated later Church fathers is projected back in to scripture by believers. But consider this :The OT is a Jewish religious holy book.The Jews worshiped YHWH whom they viewed as unitarian, not trinitarian.Jesus and his Apostles were all faithful Jews who worshiped the God of Israel.The claim of the Evangelists was not that God is a Trinity, but that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God.Many Catholic and Protestant reference works and scholars admit that the doctrine of the Trinity is not found in the OT and some admit that it is not found in the NT.
![How God is Both One and Three at the Same Time [Animated Explainer]](/img/n.gif)
Just makes me want to read my bible more. Great job.
The fact that the All the fullness of the Godhead would dwell in a body is mindblowing
You're talking about my God who makes it plain and simple He is One.
WOW...excellent teaching
Beautiful!
When the blind lead the blind.
Let's please start calling it what it really is.... Triunity.
Jesus is the NT revelation of the one God in the OT.
"Delighting in the Trinity", Michael Reeves
Speaking exclusive of religion,We often hear, follow your heart when in doubt, that means there is something else you can follow too. You have two options there. The mind and the heart. Yet we know both are inside of you, it comprises just one person. Can you answer how that is possible? No! We often ask these Limitless- God questions and want to understand with a limited mind! God is three in one! Period. Any object can be in different states of matter, you can accept that but not about God?
Ephesians 3:14-19
😍
The easiest way to defend the trinity is to compare it with what the Bible says about God. If the two agree 100%, then that should confirm that the trinity is based squarely on Scripture. But is that the case? Well, judge for yourself:
1a. THE BIBLE says the Father-a single person-is the “only true God.” (John 17:3).
1b. THE TRINITY DOCTRINE says that “every Person [of the trinity] BY HIMSELF [is] God.” That’s THREE GODS!
2a. THE BIBLE says that “for us there is one God, the Father." (1 Cor. 8:6)
2b. THE TRINITY DOCTRINE says “we worship one God IN TRINITY.”
3a. THE BIBLE says the “Father is greater…” (John @)
3b. THE TRINITY DOCTRINE says: “In this trinity, NONE is greater…”
4a. THE BIBLE says Jesus is the Son of God. (John @)
4b. THE TRINITY DOCTRINE says “Jesus IS God,” which makes him a different God from the “one God in trinity."
5a. THE BIBLE says the “Father is greater…” (John @)
5b. THE TRINITY DOCTRINE say that “the whole three persons [of the trinity] are “co-equal.”
6a. THE BIBLE says the holy spirit is not God, but a possession of God and that he gives it to deserving ones. As 1 Thess. 4:8 says: “Therefore, whoever disregards this, disregards not a human being but God, who (also) gives HIS holy Spirit to you.”
6b. THE TRINITY DOCTRINE says that “the holy spirit IS God.” However, A Catholic Dictionary says: “On the whole, the New Testament, like the Old, speaks of the spirit as a divine energy or power.” It adds: “The majority of New Testament texts reveal God’s spirit as someTHING, not someONE.”
7a. THE BIBLE says that the Father is the ONLY person that “the true worshipers” (Christians) should worship. (John @)
7b. THE TRINITY DOCTRINE says: “The trinity in unity is to be worshiped.”
So, is the trinity doctrine a Biblical teaching? Answer: absolutely not.
You seem to have a bad misunderstanding of the Trinity. As a trinitarian, let me go through your points and show where your misunderstanding has caused you to think that the bible is opposed to the Trinity.
1a. I agree that the Father is the only true God. The Son is also the only true God, and so is the Spirit. Trinitarianism teaches that there is one God. Jesus is not a seperate god from the Father. That would be tri-theism, a wicked heresy.
1b. The doctrine of the trinity teaches that there is one God. The Nicene Creed opens with, "I believe in One God, the Father Almighty". The Trinity does not consist of three beings, or three essences, or three gods. It is three persons (hypostsis) in one essence (substance, being, ousia).
2. You again seem to forget (or not be aware of) the Nicene creed, the central trinitarian creed, which opens: "I believe in One God, the Father Almighty". Trinitarians have always recognized that the title "God" can be used as a proper noun to refer to exclusively to the Father. You can see this in the Nicene Creed, Athanasius, Gregory of Nazianzus, Basil the Great, etc. This just shows that you're not very familiar with the doctrine of the Trinity, nor are you well aquianted with trinitarian authors.
3. The Father is greater than the Son (1) in comparison with the Son's human nature, and (2) relationally. Again, all trinitarians have always recognized that the Father is the source of everything the Son and the Spirit have. This is called the Monarchy of the Father. So the language of "one God, the Father" poses no problem to trinitarian theology, which afirms one God, the Father.
4a. Yes, Jesus is the Son of God. That's why he is refered to as God the Son. He is the Son of the Father.
4b. Saying Jesus is God does not make him different from "One God in Trinity". That just doesn't follow, unless you don't understand the Trinity.
5a. We already dealt with this above. Look up Monarchy of the Father. Read great trinitarian writers like Gregory of Nazianzus.
5b. The three persons of the trinity are co-equal in honor, dignity, substance, glory, and status. The only difference is on of relations, as mentioned above (the Father is the begettor of the Son, who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit is spirated, or "procedes", from the Father.) Again, this was delt with in number 3.
7. This is a terrible reading of John 4:23. Jesus is talki ng to the woman at the well, and the woman explicitly asks him: “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain; and you say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.” She is refering to the Jews and Samaritans worshipping the Father. Jesus responds and tells her how the Father will be worshiped, not that the Father is the only one to be worshiped. He says: "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him." His point is how the Father will be wroshipped (in spirit and in truth). Jesus is not saying tht he is not to be worshipped. In fact, when Thomas falls as his feet and worships Jesus (even calling Jesus "God"), Jesus calls those who do that "blessed".
You should really try to understand the what the Trinity is before you critique it. I would recommend the writings of Saint Athanasius (On the Incarnation), Gregory of Nazianzus (Five Theological Orations), and Saint Basil the Great (On the Holy Spirit, On the Faith, Against Eunomius).
@@aaronmueller5802 As a trinitarian, let me go through your points and show where your misunderstanding has caused you to think that the bible is opposed to the Trinity.
"1a. I agree that the Father is the only true God. The Son is also the only true God, and so is the Spirit.."
Poor, Mr. Trinitarian, you just killed your entire trinity argument on the very first point. Since the Father is "the only true God" as Jesus said at John 17:3, then, God can't be a trinity, pure and simple. You see, the word "only" means, "to the exclusion of other." Since the Father is the true God to the exclusion of others, then, how many other true Gods can there be? Answer: *NONE!!*
"The Trinity does not consist of three beings, or three essences, or three gods."
Uh, didn't you just say that the Father is the only true God, the Son is the only true God, and the holy spirit is the only true God? Well, how many only true Gods is that? Isn't that three only true Gods? BTW, in prayer to his Father, Jesus called his Father "the ONLY true God." (John 17:3) By saying that, Jesus excluded himself and everyone else in the universe from being the ONLY true God.
"Mr. and Mrs. Jones" have three children, named "Bill," "Bob," and "Barney." Would you say the "Joneses" have three individual "only childs"?
"2. You again seem to forget (or not be aware of) the Nicene creed, the central trinitarian creed, which opens: "I believe in One God, the Father Almighty"."
Your confusion continues. The Nicene Creed is not the source of the trinity doctrine. Instead, it is the Athanasian Creed that teaches the trinity doctrine. As the Catholic Encyclopedia says: "In the words of the Athanasian Creed: ‘the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." The Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed contradict each other. No wonder you're confused.
A Catholic Dictionary clearly says: "The third Person [of the trinity] was asserted at a Council of Alexandria in 362…and finally by the Council of Constantinople of 381.” Did you get that, Mr. Trinitarian. The Nicene Creed was written in 325, but the trinity belief came into existence at two Catholic Councils, namely, the Council of Alexandria in 362, and the Council of Constantinople in 381. So, don't tell me that the Nicene Creed of 325 is the central trinity doctrine. At that time, the trinity belief didn't even exist!!
"Jesus is the Son of God. That's why he is refereed to as God the Son."
Oh, yeah??? Show me ONE BIBLE VERSE where Jesus is referred to as God the Son.
And another thing, if God is a trinity and that Jesus is the Son of God, doesn't that make Jesus the Son of the trinity?
"When Thomas falls at Jesus' feet and worships Jesus (even calling Jesus "God"), Jesus calls those who do that "blessed"."
I would imagine that you are alluding to John 20:28. Now, tell me, where in that verse does it say Thomas worshiped a trinity of persons? After all, the Athanasian Creed says: "We worship one God in trinity." Do you think Thomas though Jesus was a three-person deity?
I suggest that you look over the scriptures in your last post and then show me where any of them say or imply that God is "a unity of three [persons]," which is what the word "trinity" means.
@cbooth151 "Uh, didn't you just say that the Father is the only true God, the Son is the only true God, and the holy spirit is the only true God? Well, how many only true Gods is that? Isn't that three only true Gods?"
No, because the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same one God. You keep misunderstanding this fundamental point.
There is one "only true God". That one God is the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is one God, not three gods. The Son is not a different God than the Father.
"Mr. and Mrs. Jones" have three children, named "Bill," "Bob," and "Barney." Would you say the "Joneses" have three individual "only childs"?"
No, because those children have different essences. The persons of the Trinity have the same one divine essence. Just say you don't know what the Trinity is.
"The Nicene Creed is not the source if the trinity doctrine"
I agree, because the source is the bible, but if you think the Nicene Creed doesn't teach the trinity, you are badly confused. Do you even know what the Nicene Creed is? Rrad literally any document written in the 4th century, they know that the Nicene creed teaches the trinity. Let me quote a bit more of it for you:
"And I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made."
This is the creed recited every day by most Christians. If you don't think it teaches the trinity, what do you think it does teach?
"A Catholic Dictionary clearly says: "The third Person [of the trinity] was asserted at a Council of Alexandria in 362..and finally by the Council of Constantinople of 381." Did you get that, Mr. Trinitarian. The Nicene Creed was written in 325, but the trinity belief came into existence at two Catholic Councils, namely, the Council of Alexandria in 362, and the Council of Constantinople in 381. So, don't tell me that the Nicene Creed of 325 is the central trinity doctrine. At that time, the trinity belief didn't even exist!!"
The Nicene Creed was finished at the Coubcil of Constantinople in 381. So yes, the Nicene Creed teaches the Trinity. The Athanasian Creed comes later than 381 anyway, so you're still wrong on that point. Saying "the trinity belief didn't exist!!" is incredibly ignorant. Just because a belief is not articulated at a Council does not mean that belief does not exist. We can find multiple Christians writing over a century before 362 that belive the Holy Spirit is a person of the Godhead. Let me give you a few:
“And at the same time the mystery of the oikonomia is safeguarded, for the unity is distributed in a Trinity. Placed in order, the three are the Father, Son, and Spirit. They are three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in being, but in form; not in power, but in kind; of one being, however, and one condition and one power, because he is one God of whom degrees and forms and kinds are taken into account in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”- Tetullian (Against Praxeas 2 [A.D. 216]).
“We believe, however, that there are three persons: the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; and we believe none to be unbegotten except the Father. We admit, as more pious and true, that all things were produced through the Word, and that the Holy Spirit is the most excellent and the first in order of all that was produced by the Father through Christ”- Origen (Commentaries on John 2:6 [A.D. 229]).
“[There is] one Holy Spirit, having substance from God, and who is manifested through the Son; image of the Son, perfect of the perfect; life, the cause of living; holy fountain; sanctity, the dispenser of sanctification; in whom is manifested God the Father who is above all and in all, and God the Son who is through all. Perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty neither divided nor estranged”- Gregory the Wonderworker (Confession of Faith [A.D. 265]).
Not to mention the bible itself, which explicitly says "But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”- Acts 5:3-4
So how can you say that belief in the Trinity "didn't even exist!!" until 362? Pure ignorance.
Furthermore, the main bishop of the Coubcik of Alexandria of 362 was Athanasius, who was at Niceae in 325!
The divinity of the Holy Spirit was not at issue at the council of Niceae, so the first version of the creed didn't deal with it. It became an issue later, so the council of Constantinople dealt with it.
By your logic, nobody believed in the bible until 363 when the council of Laodicea gave a canon list. That's obviously an absurd conclusion, yet you make the same argument about the trinity.
"Oh, yeah??? Show me ONE BIBLE VERSE where Jesus is referred to as God the Son"
Sure, it's the same bible verse that says all of our terminology has to be found word-for-word in the bible.
"Do you think Thomas thought Jesus was a three-person deity?"
No, because Jesus is not a three-person deity. No trinitarian teaches this. Jesus is one person. You really don't understand the trinity. This is why I recommend books for you too read, because your objections are still based on a complete misunderstanding of the basics of the Trinity.
This verse does show that Jesus is God, which you deny.
"I suggest that you look over the scriptures..."
The Bible is very clear that:
1. The Father, Son, and Spirit are each God.
(John 20:28, Acts 5:3-4)
2. The Father, Son, and Spirit are seperate
persons (Luke 22:42, Matthew 28:19, John
16:7)
3. There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4, 1
Timothy 2:5, Isaiah 43:11)
These are the central teachings of the
doctrine of the Trinity. All of the nuances of the trinity are the logical consequences of these facts from the bible.
@@aaronmueller5802 "The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same one God. You keep misunderstanding this fundamental point."
You keep stepping all over your own tongue. You claimed that "the Father is the only true God, the Son is also the only true God, and so is the Spirit." That's three "only one true Gods." Apparently, you can't count to three. At John 17:3, Jesus said that only his Father is "the only true God." If you could show me a verse that says the Father, Son, and holy spirit make up the same "only true God," that would be nice. However, you can't do that since the Bible says no such thing.
"There is one "only true God". That one God is the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is one God, not three gods."
The Athanasian Creed says:
1. "The Father is God." (God #1)
2. "The Son is God." (God #2)
3. "The holy spirit is God." (God #3)
4. "[The Father, Son, and holy spirit are one God." (God #4) Did you notice how the verb in the first three sentences changed from "is" to "are" in the fourth sentence? So, three separate Gods combine to make a fourth composite "one God." Jesus never taught such nonsense.
To Jesus, his Father was not only his God, but also the God and Father of his apostles, and by extension, all true Christians. As he said to his apostles through Mary: "I am going to MY Father and YOUR Father, to MY God and YOUR God." (John 20:17)
Do you get it now? According to the AC, three Gods make up a fourth "one God."
"Those children have different essences. The persons of the Trinity have the same one divine essence. Just say you don't know what the Trinity is."
Your confusion continues. How many "only childs" can be born in a family? Only one? Or more than one? Since Jesus referred to his Father as "the only true God," how many other "only true Gods can there be? Only one? Or more than one? Just say you don't know what the word "only" means.
"The source [of the trinity] is the Bible."
Really? Let's see. You said "the persons of the trinity have the same divine essence, right? Where does the Bible say that? Answer: *NOWHERE!!* But, don't take my word for it. Catholic John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘ESSENCE’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.”
The Catechism of the Catholic Church adds: "In order to articulate the dogma of the Trinity, the Church had to develop her own terminology with the help of certain notions of philosophical origin: "substance" (rendered also at times by "ESSENCE" or "nature"), "person" or "hypostasis", "relation" and so on."
Did you get that? The trinitarian term "essence" is not a Bible word. And what's more, the term originated with pagan Greek philosophy.
"The Nicene Creed was finished at the Council of Constantinople in 381."
Wrong again. The Nicene Creed was written in 325, decades before the Catholic Church invented the trinity teaching. As one Catholic website put it: "The Nicean Council, which met in 325, developed the Nicene Creed from the earlier Apostles' Creed, refining its wording so that Jesus' divinity, in addition to his humanity, was plainly expressed and proclaimed."
Also, according to A Catholic Dictionary, it wasn't the Nicene Council, but the Councils of Alexandria and Constantinople that developed the trinity teaching in the years of 362 and 381. That's when a mythical third person was created to make a three-person deity. As ACD says: "The third Person was asserted at a Council of Alexandria in 362…and finally by the Council of Constantinople of 381.” So, is the Bible the source of the trinity? Absolutely not.
One other thing. Did the Jews of the Bible look at the holy spirit as being a person? Not according to the following Catholic references...
1. “Although this spirit is often described in personal terms, it seems quite clear that the sacred writers [of the Hebrew Scriptures] never conceived or presented this spirit as a distinct person” (Edmund Fortman, The Triune God, p. 9).
2. “Nowhere in the Old Testament do we find any clear indication of a Third Person” (The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1912, Vol. 15, p. 49).
3. “The Jews never regarded the spirit as a person; nor is there any solid evidence that any Old Testament writer held this view…The Holy Spirit is usually presented in the Synoptic gospels (Matt., Mark, Luke) and in Acts as a divine force or power” (Edmund Fortman, The Triune God, pp. 6, 15).
4. “The Old Testament clearly does not envisage God’s spirit as a person…God’s spirit is simply God’s power. If it is sometimes represented as being distinct from God, it is because the breath of Yahweh acts exteriorly…The majority of New Testament texts reveal God’s spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God” (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. 13, pp. 574, 575).
5. “On the whole the New Testament, like the Old, speaks of the spirit as a divine energy or power” (W.E. Addis and Thomas Arnold, A Catholic Dictionary, 1960, p. 810).
Did you get all of that? Since the Jews of the OT and the NT didn't believe in the holy spirit as being a person, then, the holy spirit can't be the third person of a three-person deity. In other words, there is no trinity.
@@aaronmueller5802 "Not to mention the bible itself, which explicitly says "But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”- Acts 5:3-4. So how can you say that belief in the Trinity "didn't even exist!!" until 362? Pure ignorance."
Pure stupidity. If God is a trinity, where did Peter say at Acts 5:3, 4 that Ananias lied to the trinity? And besides, Peter knew who God was and that he wasn't a trinity. As Peter said at 1 Pet. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who in his great mercy gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." This is similar to John 20:17, where Jesus said to his apostles through Mary: "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." Clearly, Jesus' God was also his Father.
>
Sure, it's the same bible verse that says all of our terminology has to be found word-for-word in the bible."
Hey, pal, it was _you_ who said Jesus was referred to as God the Son, yet, you can't tell me where that term is found in the Bible? Do you usually make claims you can't prove?
"By your logic, nobody believed in the bible until 363 when the council of Laodicea gave a canon list."
Not so. The fact is that the trinity is not a Bible teaching. In fact, not even the so-called Church Fathers believed in a Biblical trinity. As The New Catholic Encyclopedia says: "The formulation ‘One God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century…. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”
Face the facts. The trinity is not a Bible teaching.
*Nowhere in the bible is it said you must believe in a man-made doctrine of the trinity. Son of God is in the New Testament 40 times and 'God the Son is never mentioned. In addition John tells us why he wrote his gospel. Read John **20:30**-31 Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name. STOP THE HERESY!*
Except that the triune God is referenced, therefore the trinity isn't man made.
To be asking that question suggests you've not read a Bible much.
How would you describe it differently from the Bible then and how do you explain that the Word was God and that he was Immanuel, God with us?
We will just have to disagree then as you say those passages don't teach it but it seems clear to most they do.
Yeah I won't be reading all that but skimming you seem to make so inaccurate assumptions about Trinitarianism but I guess your church has indoctrinated you follow a certain course.
A load of conjecture and imputing anti-bible teachings into scriptures taken out of context.
These videos prove conclusively that the Trinity is false. No one puts out videos to debate whether gravity exists or not.
Philosophy and doctrine of man. Sad with their words they deceive you!! God has done it by himself and is alone and their is no other!!! Who is equal to him ? Is their any beside Him?
Hello
Jesus is the Messiah
The Son of God
The Son of David
The Son of man
The man God has chosen to be his anointed king
The man God will judge the world through
The man God raised from the dead
Jesus has a God
There is no triune god in scripture
Jesus said the Father is the only true God!
John 17
3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.
The Trinity is not even in the gospel, never mind being central to it. This man made teaching, a product of Greek educated later Church fathers is projected back in to scripture by believers. But consider this :The OT is a Jewish religious holy book.The Jews worshiped YHWH whom they viewed as unitarian, not trinitarian.Jesus and his Apostles were all faithful Jews who worshiped the God of Israel.The claim of the Evangelists was not that God is a Trinity, but that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God.Many Catholic and Protestant reference works and scholars admit that the doctrine of the Trinity is not found in the OT and some admit that it is not found in the NT.
Here is now, christians talking pagan gods!