Makes sense. If you use sharpen first you are in effect sharpening noise which makes it harder for DeNoise to take it out without loosing sharpness. With DeNoise first the noise is gone and sharpen can do its thing on a clean image. Good video.
Totally agree, this is the best workflow when you have noisy unsharp images. The only thing I would add is I would also recommend bringing your RAW file into Photoshop as a smart object ( be it directly from ACR or LR ) before running the Denoise and Sharpening plugins. The reason for this is you are presenting the RAW data to Topaz rather than a converted TIFF file. The less conversions the better I say. Given Topaz Denoise and Sharpen AI don't work properly as non destructive smart filters ( if you try to re edit them they go back to their default settings ) I would suggest simply rasterising the smart object after completing Topaz Denoise/Sharpen. 😊
It is a misconception that Smart Objects provide better quality than exporting a TIF file from Lightroom. For more info check out this excellent article from Greg Benz Photography, who is a very reliable source: gregbenzphotography.com/photography-tips/3-common-misconceptions-about-camera-raw-smart-objects
Makes sense, I find in general, whether using Nik Collection or Topaz or any other tool, sharpening first just reinforces the noise, making noise reduction have to be more aggressive and degrade detail
It made good sense to me to use DeNoise first and then sharpen as you concluded. I've used this method since I have both of the products and always had good results. Your video confirmed my thinking about it. Thanks for doing the video.
This makes perfect sense. All other editing programs always suggest that you do the sharpening last or way towards the end. I have started using both programs and was using Denoise first. After watching this I am not going to waste time doing it in reverse. Saved me some time. Thanks.
Excellent 👍👍👍...also liked the tips along the way . You mentioned minimal in LR first ...presumably no contrast/ clarity etc . Yes please for TK7 tutorials Thank you
Thanks Stephen. I always believed noise reduction should come first but I wanted to put it to the test. If I ran this test in the past I forgot that I did.
I have been using DeNoise and Sharpen for more than a year now (mostly for bird images), but never exactly in the same way that you recommend. Will try this as well. Topaz recomments running DeNoise on RAW images to get the best out of this plugin. I haven't seen a similar statement from Topaz on Sharpen, though. What is your experience - have you come across any cases where running (especially) Sharpen on a RAW file will produce better results compared to a basic RAW development (in LR, C1 etc.) as a first step? I just discovered this great channel - you have another follower, Dave 👍
Dave, thanks as always. You mentioned Tony Kuyper's panel. Yes, please do tutorials about them. Have you started using the TK7 Go module? I didn't see it on your screen.
I would edit the RAW image normally and use GigaPixel Ai afterwards and only if it is needed. Gigapixel Ai was designed to enlarge your image while preserving the detail. I use it when I shrink the image size by doing extreme cropping and have to enlarge that crop back to the original size or greater for creating large fine art prints. I also use it if my camera file size won't give me satisfactory results for a very large print. In that case I would need to use GigaPixel Ai to upsize the image. You can upsize images up to 600% with GigaPixel Ai.
The photos used in Ai Sharpen and DeNoise, do they have to be RAW files to get best results? I tried the DeNoise Ai on and old photo taken with a Selfiecamera of an iPhone 8, and it didn't do much besides adding some weird artifacts at all levels. Even sharpen Ai messed up that photo. The photo was in a terrible shape to start with, maybe that's why. I love your videos, have a good day :)
Fantastic video I've done Di noise 1st after watching and have to agree. The results so much better . Also do you have a tutorial on how you have set up photoshop as I really like the look of it but Don know how to achieve it. Thanks in advance
Very good! Would you apply some additional sharpening when enlarging to bigger print sizes, i.e., 20" x 30" to 40" x 60", or save all sharpening for last?
Thanks for the helpful video. However, I have the same question as one of the other commenters below. And I apologize if you have already covered this, but, should Gigapixel AI be used at the beginning or end of the workflow? I currently use it at the beginning.
You're welcome Frank. I would edit the RAW image normally and use GigaPixel Ai afterwards and only if it is needed. Gigapixel Ai was designed to enlarge your image while preserving the detail. I use it when I shrink the image size by doing extreme cropping and have to enlarge that crop back to the original size or greater for creating large fine art prints. I also use it if my camera file size won't give me satisfactory results for a very large print. In that case I would need to use GigaPixel Ai to upsize the image. You can upsize images up to 600% with GigaPixel Ai.
I know this has been answered but this question is old but I want to second his answer. Gigapixel afterwards and only if you do large prints. Otherwise just leave it alone.
You should be fine.Click on the product you want to purchase first and then you will have the option to enter my Promo Code. I checked it out and the promo code works.
@@thejoyofeditingwithdavekelly No, it didn't work. I purchased two of their products without a promo code because there was no place on the order page or payment to enter it. I'm already a disappointed customer before I even install their products.
If you’re using low light denoise after you did the sharpenAI then of course it’s going to get rid of some of the sharpness, especially if you put the sharpen slider to zero!
Are you saying that an ISO of 2500 does not require the Low Light Mode? In the video I showed you both the DeNoise Mode and the Low Light Mode. Maybe the video didn't show the extra noise that was hanging around the edges of the Stamen (I hope that is the correct term, please correct me if I am wrong). This is the reason I choose the Low Light Mode. I would prefer not to use the Low Light Mode but I find it is very effective and helpful on High ISO images.I do appreciate your feed back Michael.
YES. But it's more like 5:30 on my machine. However, I think the layers are all pixel layers and when visible, block seeing anything below. So, the result is what is intended (a pair of adjustments on the top layer). If these were adjustment layers (like in Studio 2, say) instead of pixel layers, then there would be double noise reduction shown if both the top & middle layers were visible at the same time. Somebody please correct me if this is not the case. Dave, I really like your videos, and only comment because even older ones get a lot of viewership - at least by me! PS: In the spirit of constructive comment (NOT criticism) by a big fan: I always chuckle a little when you say "double-click to reset" the control slider or name in any of the Topaz products. It's a single click that resets them. Keep up the great work...
Ai Clear is a part of DeNoise Ai. DeNoise Ai has 3 modes and all three modes give you the ability to sharpen (Basic Sharpening only, not focus correction as does Sharpen Ai). Ai Clear is a one of the modes in DeNoise Ai and also found in Topaz Studio 2. It does a great job of basic sharpening and noise removal, however I tend to believe the DeNoise Ai mode is the better mode giving you more control of the final result. Low Light is great for High ISO images like the one in this tutorial, which was ISO 2500. Before DeNoise Ai came out Ai Clear was the way I sharpened and removed noise from my images. As a side note, when DeNoise Ai first came out it did not have Ai Clear or Low Light modes. I think they added Ai Clear to give us another choice but I don't think it was really needed. The DeNoise Ai app was designed around the DeNoise Ai mode and improved from there.
@@thejoyofeditingwithdavekelly Are you saying the AI Clear that is in Studio 2 (but purchased separately) is really now in DeNoise AI? I am referring the to stand alone AI Clear (but accessed through Studio 2) that Topaz sold a couple of years ago.
@@weisskm Yes Topaz added Ai Clear to Topaz DeNoise Ai. If you watch my video you will see it is part of DeNoise Ai. The modes are DeNoise Ai, Ai Clear and Low Light...
Makes sense. If you use sharpen first you are in effect sharpening noise which makes it harder for DeNoise to take it out without loosing sharpness. With DeNoise first the noise is gone and sharpen can do its thing on a clean image. Good video.
In any photo editing software, it's always best to denoise first. Otherwise, you're sharpening noise. 🥺
I couldn’t agree more Tom. That is the way I’ve always seen it. I just decided to put that theory to the test. 😀👍
@@thejoyofeditingwithdavekelly In other vidéo, you do an mistake : édit in Lightroom and after Denoise un Topaz
@@romainprovost7164 yu edit in LR but don't use denoise/sharpening settings :)
I think that's definitive. I have always denoised first but it's good to see this confirmation 😊
Totally agree, this is the best workflow when you have noisy unsharp images. The only thing I would add is I would also recommend bringing your RAW file into Photoshop as a smart object ( be it directly from ACR or LR ) before running the Denoise and Sharpening plugins. The reason for this is you are presenting the RAW data to Topaz rather than a converted TIFF file. The less conversions the better I say. Given Topaz Denoise and Sharpen AI don't work properly as non destructive smart filters ( if you try to re edit them they go back to their default settings ) I would suggest simply rasterising the smart object after completing Topaz Denoise/Sharpen. 😊
It is a misconception that Smart Objects provide better quality than exporting a TIF file from Lightroom. For more info check out this excellent article from Greg Benz Photography, who is a very reliable source: gregbenzphotography.com/photography-tips/3-common-misconceptions-about-camera-raw-smart-objects
Makes sense, I find in general, whether using Nik Collection or Topaz or any other tool, sharpening first just reinforces the noise, making noise reduction have to be more aggressive and degrade detail
It made good sense to me to use DeNoise first and then sharpen as you concluded. I've used this method since I have both of the products and always had good results. Your video confirmed my thinking about it. Thanks for doing the video.
This makes perfect sense. All other editing programs always suggest that you do the sharpening last or way towards the end. I have started using both programs and was using Denoise first. After watching this I am not going to waste time doing it in reverse. Saved me some time. Thanks.
Great video Dave.
I always denoise first and this proves it's the better workflow :)
Excellent 👍👍👍...also liked the tips along the way .
You mentioned minimal in LR first ...presumably no contrast/ clarity etc .
Yes please for TK7 tutorials
Thank you
Thank you. That is correct especially the no Clarity or texture.
Love your tutorials. Glad you can to the same conclusion as you did when you did this test months ago.
Thanks Stephen. I always believed noise reduction should come first but I wanted to put it to the test. If I ran this test in the past I forgot that I did.
Good to know to denoise first. Many thanks from Nova Scotia....
What Topaz really needs to do is combine denoise and sharpen into one piece of software
or keep it as it is and get twice the money
I have been using DeNoise and Sharpen for more than a year now (mostly for bird images), but never exactly in the same way that you recommend. Will try this as well.
Topaz recomments running DeNoise on RAW images to get the best out of this plugin. I haven't seen a similar statement from Topaz on Sharpen, though. What is your experience - have you come across any cases where running (especially) Sharpen on a RAW file will produce better results compared to a basic RAW development (in LR, C1 etc.) as a first step?
I just discovered this great channel - you have another follower, Dave 👍
i begin deep denoise AI with Photolab 4.. and go Sharpen secondly. and final touch with luminar AI...work with 32 bitt and export ping...
Sounds like a great workflow Marc. I love the deep prime noise reduction in PL4.
Thanks for clearing that up, Dave. I don't generally use AI Sharpen but this may change! regards, Bob (U.K.).
Dave, thanks as always. You mentioned Tony Kuyper's panel. Yes, please do tutorials about them. Have you started using the TK7 Go module? I didn't see it on your screen.
You’re welcome Steve. Yeah I am using the Go Module and I really like it.
If you also want to use Gigapixel AI, what would be the proper sequence?
I would edit the RAW image normally and use GigaPixel Ai afterwards and only if it is needed. Gigapixel Ai was designed to enlarge your image while preserving the detail. I use it when I shrink the image size by doing extreme cropping and have to enlarge that crop back to the original size or greater for creating large fine art prints. I also use it if my camera file size won't give me satisfactory results for a very large print. In that case I would need to use GigaPixel Ai to upsize the image. You can upsize images up to 600% with GigaPixel Ai.
@@thejoyofeditingwithdavekelly That's just what I do, too.
The photos used in Ai Sharpen and DeNoise, do they have to be RAW files to get best results? I tried the DeNoise Ai on and old photo taken with a Selfiecamera of an iPhone 8, and it didn't do much besides adding some weird artifacts at all levels. Even sharpen Ai messed up that photo. The photo was in a terrible shape to start with, maybe that's why.
I love your videos, have a good day :)
Fantastic video I've done Di noise 1st after watching and have to agree. The results so much better . Also do you have a tutorial on how you have set up photoshop as I really like the look of it but Don know how to achieve it. Thanks in advance
Great info as always Thank you
When should I use adjust AI? Great video thanks.
Very good! Would you apply some additional sharpening when enlarging to bigger print sizes, i.e., 20" x 30" to 40" x 60", or save all sharpening for last?
Thanks for the helpful video. However, I have the same question as one of the other commenters below. And I apologize if you have already covered this, but, should Gigapixel AI be used at the beginning or end of the workflow? I currently use it at the beginning.
You're welcome Frank. I would edit the RAW image normally and use GigaPixel Ai afterwards and only if it is needed. Gigapixel Ai was designed to enlarge your image while preserving the detail. I use it when I shrink the image size by doing extreme cropping and have to enlarge that crop back to the original size or greater for creating large fine art prints. I also use it if my camera file size won't give me satisfactory results for a very large print. In that case I would need to use GigaPixel Ai to upsize the image. You can upsize images up to 600% with GigaPixel Ai.
I know this has been answered but this question is old but I want to second his answer. Gigapixel afterwards and only if you do large prints. Otherwise just leave it alone.
Now what about with gigapixel?
i not sure if you did but could you compare photozoom pro 8 to topaz products would like your input.
Hola, ¿el gigapixel lo uso al principio o al final?
Thanks. Did the flower start as a raw or a jpeg image? If you had a JPEG image would you also use the jpeg2raw before the DenoiseAI?
You’re welcome Simon. It was a raw image. On the jpeg image I don’t think it would matter that much but I haven’t tested that yet.
Thanks!
Thanks !!
What happens when you click apply? Does it save it somewhere
If you are using as a plugin it will save it back to the host program.
There is no place to use your promo code on their website. We both got ripped off.
You should be fine.Click on the product you want to purchase first and then you will have the option to enter my Promo Code. I checked it out and the promo code works.
@@thejoyofeditingwithdavekelly No, it didn't work. I purchased two of their products without a promo code because there was no place on the order page or payment to enter it. I'm already a disappointed customer before I even install their products.
I don’t think you need to use low light mode for this one. That desharpens the image more than necessary.
If you’re using low light denoise after you did the sharpenAI then of course it’s going to get rid of some of the sharpness, especially if you put the sharpen slider to zero!
Are you saying that an ISO of 2500 does not require the Low Light Mode? In the video I showed you both the DeNoise Mode and the Low Light Mode. Maybe the video didn't show the extra noise that was hanging around the edges of the Stamen (I hope that is the correct term, please correct me if I am wrong). This is the reason I choose the Low Light Mode. I would prefer not to use the Low Light Mode but I find it is very effective and helpful on High ISO images.I do appreciate your feed back Michael.
you duplicated the Noise Ai layer not the background layer at 5.40.
YES. But it's more like 5:30 on my machine.
However, I think the layers are all pixel layers and when visible, block seeing anything below.
So, the result is what is intended (a pair of adjustments on the top layer). If these were adjustment layers (like in Studio 2, say) instead of pixel layers, then there would be double noise reduction shown if both the top & middle layers were visible at the same time.
Somebody please correct me if this is not the case.
Dave, I really like your videos, and only comment because even older ones get a lot of viewership - at least by me!
PS:
In the spirit of constructive comment (NOT criticism) by a big fan:
I always chuckle a little when you say "double-click to reset" the control slider or name in any of the Topaz products. It's a single click that resets them.
Keep up the great work...
How does Topaz AI Clear fit into the workflow? It seems to sharpen and denoise. I have all 3 Topaz products.
Ai Clear is a part of DeNoise Ai. DeNoise Ai has 3 modes and all three modes give you the ability to sharpen (Basic Sharpening only, not focus correction as does Sharpen Ai). Ai Clear is a one of the modes in DeNoise Ai and also found in Topaz Studio 2. It does a great job of basic sharpening and noise removal, however I tend to believe the DeNoise Ai mode is the better mode giving you more control of the final result. Low Light is great for High ISO images like the one in this tutorial, which was ISO 2500. Before DeNoise Ai came out Ai Clear was the way I sharpened and removed noise from my images. As a side note, when DeNoise Ai first came out it did not have Ai Clear or Low Light modes. I think they added Ai Clear to give us another choice but I don't think it was really needed. The DeNoise Ai app was designed around the DeNoise Ai mode and improved from there.
@@thejoyofeditingwithdavekelly Are you saying the AI Clear that is in Studio 2 (but purchased separately) is really now in DeNoise AI? I am referring the to stand alone AI Clear (but accessed through Studio 2) that Topaz sold a couple of years ago.
@@weisskm Yes Topaz added Ai Clear to Topaz DeNoise Ai. If you watch my video you will see it is part of DeNoise Ai. The modes are DeNoise Ai, Ai Clear and Low Light...
Yes I have seen that bug! Is there a fix?
Not that I know of Diane.
Dave,
Do you use one layer for Sharpening and another layer for Denoise or can you do both on the same layer?
Ron I use separate layers but you could just do one. It is just personal preference.
It should be evident that you don't sharpen on unmanaged noise.
I couldn't agree more Eigil. But I wanted to dispel the myth. I have always taught to do noise removal first.
go away.