PAF Pickup Secrets: Steel Chemistry - PAF Pole Screw Shootout
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- Опубліковано 3 жов 2024
- PAF humbucker guitar pickups and Steel chemistry. Is there a connection between vintage PAF tone and 50's era Steel? Jon Gundry of ThroBak Electronics answers this question with another epic guitar pickup shootout. www.throbak.co...
Vintage PAF guitar pickups have distinct tonal characteristics that every repro maker strives to duplicate. The fact is the multiple components of a PAF pickup contribute to the final tone of the assembled pickup. Because of this the Steel content of the pickup components play an important tonal role. By lab testing the Steel chemistry of vintage PAF pickup slugs, keeper bars and pole screws, ThroBak was able to precisely determine the content of these 50's era parts. Using these test results as a guide, ThroBak Electronics made vintage accurate Steel parts which include a variety of adjustable pickup pole screws of different Steel chemistry. In order to demonstrate the tonal difference of Steel chemistry and Carbon content, ThroBak does an A/B comparison of both end of the chemical spectrum for vintage pole screws.
ThroBak uses these USA made reproduction parts in their vintage P.A.F. guitar pickup reproductions.
ThroBak Electronics is a world leader in classic reproduction guitar pickups. To learn more visit.:
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You're a modern day Les Paul. A Dr. Frankenstein of long gone pickup manufacturing techniques. IT'S ALIVE
Wow. Very noticeable difference! More than I expected. Very cool video
Agreed all around
This is all interesting enough, and hats off to Thro Bak for being so true to the vintage specs. But I can't help thinking that us players should stop worrying about how to get the same tone X, Y or Z got 45 years ago and focus on developing a great tone with the tools we have today. Just a thought...
I agree. But classic tools endure because they did and do a great job for the craftsman and artist.
But that old vintage stuff sounded so good. Kinda like our steel today, hell, we don't even know how to make steel anymore. It's kinda weird. Americans used to know how to make top quality inventions. Now it's all digital copies trying to do exactly what you're talking about. They focus on trying to sound like something good, instead of just making something good. Chinese products are #1 at doing this. It's a generalization of course. There are exceptions out there.
I can definitely hear a difference... Great video!!!
The topics you choose are truly invaluable! You really really know your stuff! Your channel Is top Notch, none of the other channels even come close 👍👍👍👍👍🙏🙏
I'm pretty novice what comes to pickup mods (been doing this for 6 months now) but wanted to share my thoughts on the subject. To me, there's definitely a sound difference between pole piece screws that is caused by alloy mixture. Higher the amount of steel in the mix means more immediate response to pick attack and produces more high end and high mids whereas lower mix shifts the eq downwards and has softer response to pick attack. Baseplate also has slight difference to time/feel, where brass baseplate has less high end over nickel plated one. Imo, magnet grade and magnetic charge makes most difference to tone and feel of the pickup and is usually the first thing I start with when doing mods.
I see a guy who makes a heat treatment to pole screws, baseplate screws and keeper bar. Does making this parts red hear with an oven and later cool then down makes a difference in tone?
They matter. Good on you for going the extra mile. Great video, Jon.
Love your videos.I can’t believe how much I’ve learned from your videos
Love the demonstration that like many have said, is far more noticeable than presumed. Look forward to purchasing a pair of your pickups one day soon - it'll take a while to save the money.
I think the black tape on the pickguard definitely increases the treble response. I'd love to see a video on the mass spectrometry results on that tape.
I’ll try white tape next time!
If you couldn't hear a difference in the mellow vs harsh high end , you either need better speakers or need to have your ears checked. If you hear it and don't care, fine.
I can hear the difference, Jon. Love your pickups!
Had no idea the poles could change the sound so much. Awesome video, thanks for sharing
Marked increase in both volume and clarity in high carbon. Very surprised at the contrast between the two.
Many thanks for your ongoing experiments!!
the bass is stronger on the higher carbon ones, as well as the increased highs. the difference sounds like adjusting pickup height. useful knowledge!
Higher Carbon spec screws were brighter sounding , more harsh sounding . The lower spec Carbon screws sounded smoother especially in the high end .
Goes to show it's not 1 thing , it's everything combined that creates the vintage PAF tone .
The magnets , the covers , the wire , the screws , the bobbins and pole pieces in combination contribute to the 'tone' .
Like the L/P Burst of the late 50's , it's not just the wood , or the hide glue , or the nitrocellulose finish , or the pickups , or the tone caps , or the whatever else .
It's the convergence of all these things that make them what they are and why they do what they do better than all other similar , but not equal , examples .
Everything is the sum of it's parts, including amps. Deniers cheery pick single parts, in debating validity, and they make comparisons under less than ideal conditions. If they happen to love the tone of a well built instrument, they'll dismiss the design characteristics as mojo.
Fascinating
They sound different and more carbon seems to add more highs but I hear more difference what seems to be hottter output, the higher carbon seems to drive the amp more and feel more “in your face”. Audio engineers might say “mids forward”. Could be a stretch but there might be some time response differences between them, ie the lower carbon reacts more slowly at some frequencies which make it sound more “natural “
Great video once again! Thank you so much for another splendid vid.
This is incredible! 🤯
Thank you so much for the video!
Great insight
I love my JW-102B pickups. Thanks Jon
Thanks for another fascinating and informative video! Great work! The difference was subtle but clearly audible, especially with chords, but also with single notes. Higher carbon sounded brighter and louder to me.
The devil is in the details because the details do matter... I hear a difference and I like them both.
Now I know why my high-end PAF clone pickups (from another manufacturer) sound harsh to my ears! The frequency difference in the demo coincides with what I was hearing. Well done.
Hi matey, you are spot on Sir. One for jazz players and one for rock players, I know would work out great. Pedals will be a controlling factor and the recording console. But you have the pure sound Source sound I would say in my opinion. What a great piece of research you have completed. I think it was a great jazz guitarist called Kessel who had a beat up old PAF pickup for studio work and it sounded amazing. He kept it.
I'm listening thru 3 JBL Flip 5s in party mode and the difference is very obvious ! I don't play Metal, but I play w that level of distortion, so any small differences are magnified many times. Thanks, I'm putting screws in my 1969 Gibson T Top H B and now know what kind to get .
The difference I am hearing is much more specific then just more treble. The higher carbon content has a very present high resonant peak. Notes that have no relationship to that frequency are minerly affected, where as notes or more specifically pitches and their harmonics are overly excited by the extra carbon. I would go so far as to hypothesize that the carbon is allowing for a less restrictive path for electrons at a given frequency. Would need more data to prove if the resonate peak is a fixed frequency and the amount of carbon will either increase or decrease its amplitude. Or if the frequency shifts as well as amplitude of the resonate peak depending on carbon content.
Thanks for all your videos,
Chris
Thank you for caring about all the small details! This is why I love my Throbaks!!
Surprising. I didn't expect an audible difference, but clearly hear more treble and harmonic complexity in the higher carbon sound samples. The tonal difference, for me, is more apparent than in your potted vs unpotted video, which I was expecting to be more dramatic.
I noticed a very different tone quality, and agree with the most of the comments given. To me the higher carbon pole screws sound more aggressive and "in your face",
The lower carbon content had a slightly muted, sweet tone that I personally prefer. Great video and great pickups, I know I love mine!
Absolutely noticeable
I just bought some 1010 cheesehead fillister screws for one of my pickups. If they make a difference, I'll be replacing screws in a few other PAF-style pickups.
That's a huge difference; like a smooth lowpass filter over the lower carbon ones.
I am happy that you understand that there is a volume differense!!
My humble opinion is that the tone comparison should be done again with volumes adjusted. I assume that the tonal difference might be lower then
Yes both sound good but pretty slight but all the details add up Good work 👍
Honestly, I thought I wouldn’t be able to hear a difference. But, there’s no doubt the difference can be heard!
High Carbon to my ears! I like the raspier character.
Yep, higher carbon = more "bite" when plucked - this is my favourite and sounds more vintage to these ears. But my references are only old records and my old Les Paul Deluxe with the brighter mini humbuckers.
This guy is a scientist!
I hear the higher treble on the GBE strings with the high carbon screws..i would put high carbon in the EAD and low carbon on the GBE
Wow, the high carbon treble response is clearly noticeable. Especially on the bridge pickup. Are these available for purchase direct from ThroBak?
I don’t sell the screws separately.
The Difference is there. I'm not completely against seeing a more budget line from Throbak with higher carbon screws.. the pickups still sound amazing and for some guitars it might actually be a better fit IMO.
I did hear a difference. The lower carbon content had less harsh treble. It was more (mellow.) The high carbon content polepiece seemed a little louder. I liked the lower content on the unwound strings, but the high carbon had a cool "fizzy" sound on the wound string notes that I liked.
WoW who would have thought there would be such a notable difference just by changing pole screws!! Awesome stuff 👍🏻 do you sell these??
I sell them installed in ThroBak P.A.F. Pickup repros but I don’t sell the screws separately.
Yes you nailed it! The higher Carbon content is without a doubt brighter,more shrill to the ear....I have wondered about the steel composition,and quality being different,thus creating a different tonal structure over all ! KUDOS TO YOU,and also I was wondering about the magnets, how over the years must diminish to a degree? Wouldnt it? Whats your take on that? Thank you
Jon - What about Neodynium pickups? And - can you teach me that "Tramp Groove" that you always play? Love it. Lower carbon sounds better.
No plans to try Neo magnets.
I agree great example
Difference most noticeable on G string. Higher Carbon imparts a slight warble to the tone which is not there on the lower carbon steel. I would prefer something in between as the lower carbon sounds too laid back but I don't like the noticeable warble on the g string when struck hard.
Thanks for that video! Are you saying that modern Gibson Burstbucker Pros use 1022 steel?
According to the textbooks the magnetic permeability (the ability of a material to support the formation of a magnetic field) of steel drops, as carbon content of the alloy increases (the heat treatment of the steel also makes a difference). So, as I understand it, this means that use of the older, lower carbon steels, should result in a stronger magnetic field at the screw pole . If the higher carbon pole screws (lower permeability) produce a brighter sound, this seems counter to the generally accepted wisdom (I have yet to see an explanation of why this should be true) that a stronger magnet (say Alnico 5 compared to Alnico 2) results in a brighter pickup, since the high carbon steels should produce a weaker field at the top of the pickup.
It certainly seems it might be informative to measure the magnetic field strength at the tip of the screw for different alloys. I might try this as I have some screws of at least a couple of different alloys and a collection of pickup magnets.
If any differences in sound did turn out to be due simply to a difference in magnetic field strength that would be a simple explanation. In which case you might perhaps be able to obtain the same differences in tone by raising or lowering the pickups. Or dynamic effects - how the changes in the magnetic field as the string vibrates are affected by the B/H curve - may play more of a part.
Lower gauss generally brings more treble definition. Tonal differences between Alnico grade have more to do the inductance changes they cause to the pickup than level of gauss. A2 has a darker low end primarily because inductance changes. So the data makes sense with what I’m hearing.
Wow another scientific find lower carbon content equates to a different magnetic flux resonance with a warmer sound.. Rolled off some highs and smoother sounding with less harshness. 😊 🎸
Most definitely a difference, but I feel like it’s more than just treble being affected. I hear the whole spectrum as harsher with the higher carbon content and a perceived higher output. I don’t think the output is higher, it just sounds like it is.
It's like the cherry on top. It sounds like you are playing harder, which you may well be. You could have an idea that the treble is harsher and thus you make it so. Even over a UA-cam video it sounds different but ill take your word for it as you are the one playing the guitar.
I have thought of this as a possibility. I use these notes and phrases to test everything and I try to be consistent as I can. The fact that the difference can be heard on single notes as well as strumming I think is significant.
The higher carbon obviously to my ears a little more bright and the lower obviously a little bit darker but they're both nice and there is a difference thanks for doing the work on this... can I order my paf pick ups with higher or lower?(
We use carbon content as part of the recipe for different models. You can order custom pickups if you want specific details but there is an upcharge for custom specs..
So interesting info. What effect causes to heat this parts to red in an oven. Does this treatment lessen the carbon content on this parts?
It may be subconscious but It looks to me like your attack changes from A to B. With B getting a stronger attack vs A. A more accurate test would be to strike the strings with a repeatable method.
I use to own a recording studio, & remembered that the piano tuners would only tune a piano, if they could do the whole piano in one day. Because, every time you wake up, your hearing is different, & if half tuned, they had to do the job all over again. What I hear in this awakened state is, the low carbon sound smother in sound & attack. While the 10.22s Have a jump out at you faster & rougher on the low E & A strings. Guess I better listen again tomorrow, huh.
I did not expect to hear that much of a difference! It was very noticeable, even through poor speakers, it is a very obvious difference. You mentioned that there are varying grades of steel from low to high carbon. Do you have screws ranging from low to high? Or is most of what's available in terms of pole screws only modern high carbon or vintage low carbon? Listening to the two examples in the video, I might be interested in pole screws that have a slightly higher carbon content than the low carbon sound, but not as high carbon as the high carbon sound.
The difference in the two was very slight. The high carbon screws sounded much like a high output pickup where the low carbon screws sounded more low output! This would be more of a personal choice rather than a case of one being better than the other.
great test! thanks! a very clear sonic difference. question: might the screws sound different if one set had been in contact with the magnets for a extended time and therefore had become magnetized and the other set had not been in contact and therefore not yet become magnetized?
I thought of this. When you take the pole screws out they are not holding a charge so I don’t think it’s an issue. But I first did clean clips with pole screw swaps prior to the dirty clips in this video. So by the time I did the clips in this video both sets of pole screws had been in and out of the pickup.
The higher carbon screws were brighter sounding with a tad more bite. I wouldn't quite call them harsh. Where as the lower carbon screws had slightly warmer mids and highs, maybe a little smoother sounding. I would definitely define the higher carbon screws as having a more modern sound, with the lower carbon screws sounding more vintage.
As the same with the magnet choice, I suppose you could specifically tune the pick up to the neck or bridge position based on the treble manipulation due to the steel alloy in the pole pieces.
So in your production, when it comes to magnets.....are you aging the magnets by a slight weakening.....did you measure this aspect in your equation to build the PAF reproduction ?
Personally I prefer the lower wound bobbins all be it the mismatch along with alnico 4 magnets......so now with the screws in the adjustable bobbin. Did you also apply this to the slugs in the fixed bobbin ? I may have missed that in the video if you did mention that. AND ultimately......what about the backing plate since the magnet is stuck to it.
I always point that out to people when they pull a humbucker out of a guitar and its a brass backing plate.
If you are going to the screws....you might as well go the whole way to the sheet alloy they used when stamping out the backing plates
I have tested every metal part in a P.A.F.. ThroBak reproduction parts are made with the same alloys. The baseplates are Nickel Silver, not Brass. The alloys for the pole screws varied but all of the vintage slugs I tested were one alloy, 1215. You can use pole screw alloys to tune pickups and string response.
Does one simply unscrew the pole screws and screw new ones in?
Woah, that's surprising they make that much of a difference in the way it hits your ears. Surprising for screws.... Do all your pickups have 1006 then? Higher carbon sounded grindier and more fuzzier, rougher more pushed and hairy. Sounds like spirit in the sky or something... the lower carbon content sounded like they might be more natural and help the pickups feel more like single coils which is what I'm always after in humbuckers, to not be too compressed and rob my feel. It sounds like a really low carbon content screw might also help a lot for a P90 guitar that you want more clarity without harshness. Can we do that?
Everything matters. Is it possible to salvage 50's AlNiCo speaker magnets, melt it and make magnet bars for PAF Pickups?
Possible but not needed. There are two Alnico makers in the USA can duplicate vintage Alnico and do for ThroBak.
so the higher carbon content makes the pickup more efficient?
Wow! Slightly different attack also I would say! Are you selling screws separately ?
Sorry but I don’t sell the screws separately.
;-) I would have expected that, though it would be a great sustainability gesture as none would need to throw away so many non-Throbak pickups anymore!@@ThroBakChannel
Watch your picking hand change attack between tests.
I try very hard to keep the same pick attack but it can vary. That said I think there is more variation in tone than what could attributed to pick attack.
Would it be worthwhile to have the pole pieces on strings 1 and 2 have the smoother response, and 3 thru 6 having the higher carbon count? Maybe with string 3s pole piece being in the middle of those extremes?
Mixing the screws can be a way of fine tuning the tone of individual strings.
How do we know how those vintage pickups sounded in 1957? Are there any reference recordings from the era?
Is anyone going to notice the subtle differences when on a stage with a band?
yes sounded different to my ears and I must say, a lovely old great sound. The say the sound is in your fingers, Haha, but not yours, (But that's ok)
I was wondering,,,,,,if you took an old PAF pickup, measured, the way that you do, then took it apart,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Put it back together, would there be any difference from the first readings when you measured it again.
As long as the temperature is the same the readings will be the same.
@@ThroBakChannel Wow, nice come back mate, thank you Gib
so the 69thousand dollar question is where does on be able to purchase the lower carbon content screws
where do there pole pieces screw into??? I have a pickup with a stripped pole piece screw. can this be fixed??
We don’t sell replacement but you can replace pole screws. They thread into the bobbin and baseplate if the pickup is vintage spec..
@@ThroBakChannel ok. The screw isn't stripped, it's the bobbin/ base plate
Is the rift you're playing from a song, I feel like I know the song but can't pinpoint it.
Do you sell these low carbon pole screws?
Sorry we don’t.
So, can I buy sets of the lower carbon pole screws from Thro-bak?
Sorry but the pole screws only come in our pickups.
Jon; what content are “T-Top” screws? Thanks! What about the Slug’s? Have those changed over time as well?
There is no hard and fast rule for carbon content but if you can see a circular tooling mark on the screw head crown they may very well have a higher carbon content and you do see this on many T-Tops. They don’t have to have this mark to be higher carbon though.
So if one uses the lower carbon screws does it add some warmth to a T-Top
@@LPCustom3 I would think yes
higher carbon 4 sho !
You talk so nicely... PLAY THE INSTRUMENT!!
More volume and less definition the more the carbon content.
Lower carbon = sweeter sound.......to my ears anyways
I just sent you an email but I spelled your name wrong. Sorry.
No problem!
I 'm a Pole
Take notice in the picking technique... both are very different ,Jon wanted the higher carbon screws to have more treble. & you can surely see he's picking closer to the neck with the lower screws . Take notice people
I will admit I am not a robot. There is a difference in how I hold the pickup for the single note runs. It was not intentional but there is a difference. However once you get to the chordal a melodic playing, the pick is held the same consistently and the difference in tone between the two screw types is just a clearly evident.
sure they sounds different...checkout aged screws compare to new ones....aged ones sounds much smoother! But overall its the magnet that makes the sound...dont know why they ask 29USD for magnet which cost 1,5USD...its just marketing...
I Guarantee you that a $1.50 magnet is NOT USA made. That is a Chinese magnet price. I would love to know who is claiming to sell USA made Alnico at that price. There are only 2 companies in the USA that formulate and cast Alnico in the USA and ThroBak orders custom specs magnets from both. To get USA made Alnico I have order 1000 to 1500 pcs. min. of each grade. The overhead cost is huge and the per piece price is WAY more than Chinese Alnico. At any one time I have tens of thousands of dollars of magnets in stock. The good news is USA made allows me to offer a true vintage spec. Alnico magnet for pickups. I’m business to make pickups but I do offer the magnets for sale. BTW they cost more than $29 each on the ThroBak site.
THIS VIDEO IS SCREWY !
Now show us how your pole piece sound compared to original pole piece. That is probably what most people here want to hear
Great idea for a video.