PAF Pickup Secrets: No Wax vs. Wax Potted PAF Shootout (You Decide!)
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- Опубліковано 16 жов 2018
- Vintage PAF pickups were not wax potted but what happens when you pot them? In this video Jon Gundry of ThroBak electronics compares a non wax potted P.A.F. repro with a wax potted P.A.F. repro.
Wax potting humbucker style pickups has become standard for most large production pickups including many P.A.F. repros. Wax potting is done as a way to eliminate the possibility of feedback from high gain and high volume playing environments.
One detail that separates vintage PAF pickups and high quality P.A.F. repros from the pack is the fact that they are not wax potted. Gibson pickups from their golden era of the 1950's and 1960's were never wax potted at the factory. Many players feel that not having wax potting preserves the treble response of the pickups as well as allowing the acoustic properties of the guitar to come through the pickups and amp. The question is, what kind of tonal impact does the process of wax potting have in term of feel and response to the player and a recorded guitar track? In this video that question is explored in depth.
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What I’ve always noticed is the wax potting removes the “air” quality of the top end. I notice it more live than recorded. Thanks Jon for another interesting and informative video!
I agree, I do think it is most noticeable live.
I run PAF style scatter-wound Tonerider AC2s in all my Les Pauls they are a PAF type except they are wax potted.
They all have that "airy" tone with great note separation, dynamics, awesome sustain and the bell-like sound.
I've played the un-waxed PAFs from Seth Lover and Mojotone 59, they are not better sonically than the waxed Toneriders and they are more apt to sqealing feedback.
I thought so too, maybe a tiny tiny bit. Then I started thinking what if I’m hearing what I perceive a wax potted pickup to sound like. Because the 2 recordings are really really close.
The best, nerdiest, way to do it would be to conduct the experiment blind.
The wax suffocates litteraly the sound. Same with copper shielding foil.
4:10 can hear how potted has more muffled sound than no potted pickup.
It's all in my head...It's all in my head...It's all in my head
I was shocked that I could hear a difference on the treble strings and I preferred the wax potted. Just had a nicer tone but I could hear no difference at all on the base side of the neck. The low strings all sounded the same to me. Thanks for doing this research I don't think anyone else on the internet has done something like this. Certainly answers a question that I've had for a while
God I love Throwback videos. All the thought experiments and bar room "what ifs" played out right in front of our eyes by someone who, as near as has no practical consequence, winds absolutely historically accurate pickups (short of having a time machine). Absolutely enthralling food for the brain. Love it. Respect from the U.K.
Definitely heard the difference. I’m glad I ordered a guitar that has non waxed. Kiesel Holdsworth
I'd be interested to know how non wax potted pups would react in a 335 or semi-hollow. Would there be more hum, or would there be feedback? I have black 335 dot that I absolutely love the feel of, quite worn in, but the pups are way too dark/muddy. They were replaced before I got it & have no idea what they, but I highly doubt they're Gibson. So! I'm on the prowel for a replacement set, likely ThroBaks, if I go non wax route. I play mostly cleans to crunch, some classic rock. Mostly Steve Cropper style, and I know a T style is more appropriate for that, but I prefer Gibson on the scale & single coils don't do it for me (even though they sound great, of course).
I absolutely hear the difference - Now plug that non- potted pickup into a high volume amp and you have pure magic!
Really fair assessment you made. With a heavily over driven amp at high volume you would hear a big difference in -between notes if sustained or after decay with more noise.. I do agree with you that non potted is more alive with more undertones/nuances. and subtleties.
Great work !!!
This is exactly something I was wondering about yesterday or the day before, and now you made a video on it. I love this channel. Keep reading my mind
I do not record. If I did, this may not be a significant difference. However, nuance is paramount. Most of todays music is lacking in critical nuance, which many people do not realize is missing. Call it the soul of the music if you will. Many desirable sounds are almost impossible to convey in recorded video. Kudos for trying to enlighten us.
Excellent video, properly edited so you get a real side by side comparison. Good job Jon.
Interesting..I didn't think I would be able to tell a difference but I can..the wax potted pups sound more dull and not as chimey/open as the non wax potted pups..its not a huge difference but its there. Its enough of a difference that I will always use non wax potted pups. Thanks for doing this.
About 12 years ago, I swapped out the stock Gibson neck pickup, of my '79 ES-175, for a Duncan Seth Lover (Alnico 2, and no wax potting). When I played some chord-melody stuff, it sounded like a towel was lifted off my amp ('73 Fender Twin Reverb). I've never had to use this guitar in a high volume situation, but just for playing for my own enjoyment, I definitely enjoy the more "acoustic-like" sound.
Non-potted is definitely more “jangly” and reminiscent of 50s kinda sound. Useful information right here, thanks and keep them coming!
In my opinion, no wax is noticeably brighter. With wax is noticeably warmer. My ear also seems to hear a bit more beefyness in the bottom end on the wax pickup as well. Very interesting to be able to A/B the two. Very well done video!
frankly I'm more amazed how you were able to perfectly match the volumes (given that you unscrewed the pickups and put them back !!!) and even your seating position was matched, I could barely tell that the video switched between the two audios OR videos, lol.
also.,.,. totally appreciate your willingness to not be bound to your bias. i think it shows confidence in your excellent pickup making skills.
GREAT GREAT VIDEO!!! WE NEEDED THIS VIDEO A LONG LONG TIME GUYS. THANK YOU.
Love your videos John. Thanks for doing all this.
This was 4 years ago! We're was I we're was I ?? Glad to see this! Thank you
Great video. The difference was pretty noticeable to me. Very valuable for my next pickup purchase.
Hey Jon,
Super video like your style of explanation very straightforward very honest. My experience with wax potting is this, none of my guitars are wax potted, except for one. It’s a 60s re-issue SG in which I put in Lindy Fraillan P 90s in... only problem is when I started getting into some gain on my amp and sitting pretty much far away 2 to 3000 cycles came out like a knife. I called Lindy and spoke to him about it he said send the pick ups back we will change them out. So I did got the new ones installed same result. I called him again and he said I will wax pot them.... got them back same result. I sent the guitar to my personal guitar tech at SF guitar works, Mike said OK let’s give it more wax. He knew what I wanted I’ve worked with him for years it turned out he said he wax potted them three I times maybe four times then the feedback stopped ....he said it was like a brick of wax could barely fit back in ...cut out in fact I think he rounded it down a little bit to make it fit. When I got the guitar back no matter how much gain I put on it no feedback whatsoever and frankly I thought the tone was great ....however I did notice that yes there was a little less high-end , and a little less of the acoustic value .....this is the only guitar that I’ve done that with like I said. In the beginning I went back-and-forth with the same exact gain settings , with different guitars, to make sure it wasn’t something I was doing wrong but none of the other guitars had any problems only the SG. That’s my story sorry it’s long.
Well done! I think the difference was clearly noticeable.
The difference side by side, the wax potted had a wet blanket kind of sound. If I just heard it on the radio, I wouldn't have known. If it wasn't side by side I wouldn't have known if they were or were not wax potted. What I will attest to is how the guitar interacts with the amp, the note bloom, openness, and high end when playing a non-potted pickup. I felt like I was fighting my guitar just trying to get tones out of it and make it do things that should just be natural to a Les Paul. Found some old unpotted humbuckers and that was it. So there you go. Take it for what it's worth.
Great video and thanks for taking the time to do this! It is a subtle difference of slightly less treble response. However, this actually isn’t the best test. The difference would be more noticeable with a much louder amp and more notes at the higher end of the neck, especially with skillful vibrato as it would excite more of the resonances which should be more evident without the wax potting. Edge of feedback sounds would likely show more differences.
Flawless editing. Great Job.
Definitely potting my pick ups, thanks for the video.
John has the best pickups in the world bar none and I’ve heard them all . I had a 335 with early Patent pickups, and the guitar felt alive in the hands... that’s worth it’s weight in gold.
Great comparison video. Unwaxed sounded much better to my ears, particularly when playing single sting parts.
Very nice review topic! 👍 Love it! I'm a wax potting guy. Less microphonic with dirty tones. Thanks for posting this.
Brilliant video so informative and love to see a master talking bout something that he knows inside out
More vidoes please
Well well, you learn something every day. I loved the non wax jobbys... I can hear the wood, great sound, it’s more musical, it’s just a nicer tone. Thank you so much for this, now I’ve gotta find out what type I have on my guitars and play live with some decent non waxed potted pups.
Well done. Love it. I noticed it. Especially the low end, and that's just on my phone.
Thank you for your honesty and professionalism..🎸🎸👏🏻👏🏻☺️☺️
Thank you for the very clear and concise explanation.
Many thanks for this useful comparison. To me, the difference is very noticeable, especially on single notes lines: as you said, non potted is more open, with more harmonic overtones. It sounds almost like the difference between a new versus an old set of strings.I would have liked to hear the difference on the bridge PU too!
I can hear the difference. It's subtle, and I can see why someone would prefer one over the other. Which one they prefer is up to their taste. I like the mellow sound of the wax potted, but I wouldn't want to lose the brightness at times, either. But this is about PAF pickups. There are cheap pickups that are INCREDIBLY microphonic. They either need to be wax potted or replaced with better pickups.
If one listens to this through a good pair of headphones, the difference is not so subtle. I can clearly hear that the wax potted ones are much darker and muffled sounding. Maybe not so much on the higher registers, but certainly very noticeable on the lower notes. Great demo Jon!
I was fairly subtle, but I could hear the difference. I have several Throbak sets and prefer non potted. I occasionally get a squeal if too close to the speaker, or gain and or volume too high. That just tells me...gain and or volume up too high!
Thanks Jon. Keep up the great work on pickups and video's~
The recording differences are subtle, but the wax potted samples sounded slightly smoother and more muffled, as one would expect. I'm preeettyy sure I heard that... as another commenter said in the single notes.
The diff is subtle here but it's not that subtle. And that's at low gain & modest volume. But you described it perfectly... Non wax potted is more lively w/ brighter highs and more of the acoustic tone coming through(as if a piezo was very slightly blended in with the humbucker). HOWEVER, I guarantee you, with a cranked, dirty amp(ala Marshall) the diff is even bigger. The non potted sounds even more alive & electric. Those little microphonics jump out on certain notes and you get a lot of magical accidental harmonics. That's what I've noticed when I hear Burstbuckers(not the Pros), for example, thru a loud Marshall. The diff is not so subtle then. They def sound more alive and natural(vintage).
Although its a pretty minor distinction, it's very clear to me that the unwaxed are more open in the high end; waxed definitely more muddy sounding. Thanks for the demo!
This is good stuff.. I can definitely hear a difference in the single strings being played but not as much in the chords. The single notes do breathe a little more to my ears though. Just my two cents...
same here
I agree completely, on single notes they sound a touch janglier, seems like I can hear more overtones out of the unpotted pickups. Not enough of a difference to care about, in my opinion, certainly not enough to sacrifice the additional stability/predictability of a potted version. Maybe for studio players it would be worth caring about. I know how you damn guitar players are about imagined and real tonal differences, though...
Yes this was useful. Noticeable. I realize that I haven’t played live through an amp for 13 years. I am a pit guitarist on a touring show and the sound designer insists on having no stage PA. Basically all in-ear. Unwaxed pot would not be a problem I guess. And it would sound pretty open and clear. Just have to remember I have unwaxed pickups if I end up on a different show with speakers again.
Hi, Addicted 2 tone, well I must say that I am sitting here listening to this and you must have bloody dogs ears because I sure can't here a difference. Now I have Duncan Antiquities unpotted and Pearly Gates potted and yes there is a definite difference, but they are two entirely different pickups. I think that yes , Throbaks and Wizz and a lot of other pickups are great sounding pickups, but It's a crime that the price tag is outrageous. I guess if you've got bucks to burn then go for it. I think people place too much attention on this pickup and that pickup, when really it doesn't matter that much. It comes down to talent. I heard David Myhre, back up guitarist for Don Felder of the Eagles at the Casino Niagara and he was playing through a cheap Fender Deluxe Reverb reissue and he smoked. So It's not the bloody pickups that matter that much when it comes down to being a professional touring musician. It's strictly talent. Yeah I don't deny that a set of Throbaks would sound good. But for now, I stick with my Duncans. Even cost a good few bucks.
I had the same opinion. Couldn't hear much difference in chords but could in single notes.
great vid Jon ! there is a difference and it comes out depending on the way you play. i love unpotted pu but the way i see it they got limited use, when you crank up the volume/ gain they rerely behave. the covers play a role too in all this......so my pu of choice is a potted open coil ✌🏼
I think you notice it more when your standing in the sweetspot of a cranced amp. Ask Gary Moore. I have never had the ugly squeal that people talk about and i play a marshall dimed. Still waiting on the 1959 gibson tribs vs tho backs haha.
Brings to mind a discussion on the Les Paul forum about neck-pocket design and alleged overtones: "Short tenon, long tenon - once the drummer comes in, no one can tell the difference"
Thanks for the nice comparison! I wax pot my pickups if they squeal. I seem to feel like I "hear" a treble difference when I play wax potted pickups but I when listened to your comparison on the computer through headphones and on a high definition television, to my surprise, I didn't really hear any difference. A very interesting demo!
The biggest difference I noticed was at 4:10 when you started playing chords in that riff. There was more clarity with the non-waxed pickups.
Hear and feel the difference..little bit more glassy unwaxed..I've tried this experiment and most people say they cant hear the difference but I definitely do.
The difference isn't just subtle it is VERY subtle...
However, If you are doing an A/B comparison with amp settings as clean as what you played, I think is not nearly the best way to compare waxed pickups relative to non waxed pickups.
Take into strong consideration what the sole reason or purpose behind wax potting pick ups.
In other words, use over drive/gain to make a complete and accurate tonal comparison along with any other differences under those conditions.
Another interesting comparison. I did notice the difference in the early scales playing more so on the low strings. The higher strings tended to sound the same on my laptop.
Hey, I love this one, especially given our recent correspondence! Loss of acoustic transmission which is especially too bad on good wood resonant guitars!
To me the difference is more than subtle when playing, may I suggest you try the same but on an es335? That would be great!
Based on what I heard, the unpotted has some nice hollowness on each note. The potted has solid notes, like a filled can of beer, where the unpotted was like the empty ones. They all work on their own worlds. Unpotted is for studios and potted is for live. Informative video! Thanks a lot.
A lot of players perform live with unpotted pickups with no issues also.
@@ThroBakChannelI guess it depends on style, because high gain metal with a loud amp... big no to unpotted pickups, don't you think?
Really didn't notice much difference at all and I felt you did an excellent job of A / B editing the video. If I was given the choice and the cost was the same I would opt for the wax potted option just for the ability to play at very high gain levels and not have to worry about small microphonic qualities becoming audible.
Thank you for this good demo.
I clearly prefered the wax potted, because I always hear the high pitch "klicking" of the pick during play at the non wax potted. This pitch klick was enerving to me.
this is what I tried on a set of strat pickups ( i think were swapped out) I dipped them for 20-30 mins. watching the bubbles come out but more because I didnt want the top plate to melt as i believe it was plastic. I threw them back in and it got rid of the microphonic issue but sounded numb/dull. I did a few quick dips after the original dip to add extra coats of wax. I reheated them a few days later ( probably the following weekend) with a hair dryer and let all the "free wax" drip off. Got my sound back and still didnt get any microphonics.
No wax for me. Very helpful comparison. Thank you!
Thank you for this comparison!
This reminds me a little of using dampers on tubes to reduce vibrational noise in combo amps. They work but they also reduce the airy overtones that make good tubes sound good. So I've learned to live with a little sympathetic rattle if it means keeping the full harmonic signal.
That doesn't make a damn bit of sense. I think you're imagining things there. Rattling tubes produce "airy overtones"?🤣
You sound like exactly the kind of person who would spend $600 on a set of pickups..
Very good video! Good comparison! My preferite was the non wax potted one
Great video, very honest straight up comparison. I can hear a very slight difference in the top end when you played the scales up and down the neck. But to my ear it was so subtle that it would be totally unnoticeable if I wasn’t deliberately listening for it (and watching your text coming up on the screen). I reckon the difference in feel is possibly down to the psychological effect in knowing which pickup you are using? A more true test would be to run a blind test where you had absolutely no idea which pickup you were playing.
I think you are right.
Great video. My experience is exactly the same as you decribed. My new Les Paul came with unpotted pickups. They sure give a great feel but when you load on the distortion, especially with a Marshall or Mesa Boogie, the top end is just too ice picky. Also, unpotted squeal more in theose circrumstances.
I managed to get some (lightly) potted Custombuckers, they work much better for me. If you play only clean/cleanish and with certain amps, unpotted are fantastic. Otherwise, potted are so much more versatile.
I thought they sounded similar enough that it wouldn't matter to me which I used. But, I watched a video of Billy Gibbons playing an SG on a smaller stage once, and the guitar was putting out a great deal of hand and pick noises, so much so that it really made the guitar sound bad. I didn't know if that was simply a really microphonic pickup or if maybe the subtle differences between potted and non-potted pickups really come out when it is cranked up to a high volume. Great video/information.
Thanks Jon - just got an A4 from you for the bridge of the kz115’s in my R8. Hoping to tighten the lows and streamline the mids.
They are so similar that I wouldn't personally worry if mine were waxed or not!
Great video to prove this point, the difference definitely noticeable, it's not on every single note in the vid but there's a muffliness to the wax potted pickup. Would consider it to be more than a subtle difference. Thanks.
thanks for another informative video!
I can hear a difference- minor but it’s there. I had a set that were not potted and there were amazing at low to medium volume. Much more sustain and responsive.
I definitely heard a qualitative difference between the two types, even with wimpy laptop speakers, which kind of surprised me. I can only imagine that the "feel" of playing this guitar live in the room exposed even greater difference. The unpotted had more brilliance and "air," if you know what that means. But I was sold on unpotted just with the tapping-on-the-covers demonstration - I can deduce from that that the unpotted pickups will reproduce more of the guitar body vibrations and such, beyond just the string vibrations. Anyway, as soon as I can afford a new set of humbucking pickups, unpotted it is!
Yes, very useful! I did not notice any different at all. But then again I wear a hearing aid in each ear.
Thank you for information. Very usefull. Rock on !!
There was a definite difference to me in the upper mids as far as what I'd call mild fuzzy harmonics with the non-waxed P/U. It seemed the waxed tended to attenuate the overtones more. Both were pleasing and I'd imagine the Amp response has a lot to do with it. The waxed felt a little more biting to me. Honestly they both sounded good but the nuances were the difference.
THANK YOU for this video! Very useful!! I think it's clear that there's a difference between the two ... maybe you have to listen to it with fresh ears, not immediately after having play ...I think anyway the feeling when you play it's so important for the recordings... And yes! the difference it's not enormous but there is a clear difference ...maybe you can try also with compressed , eqed guitar ... I really think that a classic guitar mix treatment could make this subtle difference more and more clear and push out it .... THANK YOU AGAIN ! For me your accurate comparison has been so important! Compliments!
1st Are 57 classic uncovered still wax potted? 2nd When you put covers on do you silicone them on the inside or just solder them on with nothing else? What are your thought on that prosses, and lastly What are your thought on very light wax potting? Thank you for your time.
Not a lot of difference to my ears, but I did think at around 4:48 (not waxed) it got a little clearer/louder. Not sure if that was a result of a difference in pick attack or not?
Who in the world is giving this video a thumbs down? Is wax potting an offensive topic? This video is great! Thanks for sharing.
Noticeable difference in high end frequency’s. Subtle but definitely there. I would like to hear this with a higher gain or overdriven tone. Thanks
Night and day difference, unpotted sounds so much sweeter and more open.
I’ve had problems with unpotted pickups squealing (I play a full stack). Removing the cover didn’t even seem to help at all. But then, I put the cover back on with some gaffer tape on top of the non-adjustable poles, and made sure the cover went on very tight, and the squealing was gone. Make sure those covers are on tight and use the gaffer tape trick if you have any issues, before wax potting!
The Silicone RTV treatment will accomplish the same as the gaffers tape. Gaffers tape adhesive will harden over time and may be difficult to clean off.
Very useful, thank you! would be great to hear the test on a hollow body like a 335
Good video, there is a nice sizzle of non wax
Was listening from a distance and could not see the titles. Could hear a distinct difference between the non-waxed and waxed. Definitely a more open and full sound with non-waxed. Thx for the demo! I'll stick with my '74 T-tops unwaxed!
Thanks great video I was curious about this
Just a speck of tiny echo and overtones,definitely more lively unpotted,and I was just about to pot a humbucker,before I upgrade from SSS to a HSS on a strat I have,you saved me the trouble,although this microphonic pickup didn't work in the 335 firefly it came in, I think it will do fine in the strat, thanks for the video.
Good video thanks!
Throbaks are the best. Have a set in my collings i30. Beautiful Beautiful stuff :). Thanks
I'd say the microphonic qualities of the unwaxed pickups make more of a difference in acoustic and semi-acoustic guitars. I was really impressed by my Seth Lover PAFs (Seymour Duncan) in my 335 clone. I will test them against the unmodded variation of the same instrument as soon as I visit my friend whom I gave the first 335 to as a present because he liked it so much. And got myself the same guitar again.
I heard pretty much zero difference. Very good A/B test though one of the best I've seen. Very quick and sudden changes back and forth is very helpful so that our ears don't forget.
Your pickups sound great! The midrange and “honk” is just right. Difference was definitely subtle? It’s interesting about the “feel” thing? So much is about how a guitar plays, setup, vibrates...before it’s amplified! But, pickups really are that voice/translator, between the guitar and amp.
I have generally been a single coil guy, but have been really getting turned on to the Vintage PAF tone lately.
Not sure what vehicle guitar it’s going to happen with, but it will happen! Your pickups are a definite contender.
I like non wax potted neck pickups but need wax potted bridge pickups. I found that I tended to roll the tone off more than usual when I had a non wax potted bridge pickup. Plus, my band typically plays on small stages and we are loud enough that uncontrollable feedback is an issue. If I was just playing at home I would probably go non wax potted 100% of the time on both pickups, but that extra treble and tendency to feedback more than I want is enough to keep me was potting my bridge pickups. However, that extra chime from a non wax potted neck is crucial and helps so much with clarity.
I believe depending on the music you play, no wax may be the way to go. It could be argued that wax is also good. I personally like feedback, the good feedback.
I heard the difference and I wasn't even wearing headphones. LOL. It is subtle and it's not earth-shaking, but you do get a little bit more out of the non-waxed ones.
Great vid thanks
I wax pot all my pickups due to playing through a Mark IIC+....Soon as you turn the guitar volume knob it starts squealing like mad! I use 80% paraffin and 20% bees wax heated to 150* for 15 minutes.
I need my mixing headphones on or to be using studio monitors to maybe, perhaps hear a difference. It's so slight i can't see a reason not to wax pot.
I wonder whether potting alters the capacitance of pickups some. I have some coils waiting to be potted I've already measured with the bode plotter, so i can try this, but the capacitance of a pickup is small compared to that of the connection cables and of the guitar lead so it would need to be significant to be worth following up. The cynic in me wonders whether such a change in capacitance can be mitigated by a few less turns of wire.
Jon you are dorky in a very cool way! lol. Just caught you on Tone Talk and thereby discovered this channel. I'm sure there will be many others like me who do the same. I'd love to get some of your pickups one day. Unfortunately here in Australia everything costs twice as much, so it is a big investment. A topic I'd love you guys to address: what are the essential ingredients (in your view) for a Les Paul-type guitar to have to get the full benefits of boutique PAF repros. E.g I have a Japanese...guitar, well made but doesn't have a full maple cap, just veneer. To spend a grand on new pups would be almost as much as I spent on the guitar...perhaps I really need to go up a guitar-value notch first...?
I found this video when searching to see if the unpotted pick ups commonly "pop" when you tap them. At 3:30 you can hear that they do indeed pop, so thank you for verifying that my pick ups aren't damaged or miswired. (1961 ES-335). I think the tone difference stands out more on a hollow, or semi hollow, guitar, as the resonance of the instrument transfers to the pickup. However, whatever subtle difference, I'm sure it can be compensated for with a turn of the tone knobs
A lot of the noise you get when when your pick hits the pup comes from the pup cover itself … You can reduce it by removing the cover … which also makes the top of the pup a little lower.
Or wax just the gap between the cover and pup, (which doesn’t change the capacitance, hence frequency response of the pickup).
I could definitely hear a difference at the start while playing slowly with single note plucking, but seemed to disappear on longer and faster runs with rhythm added.
I was able to pick up a slight difference through my Shure earbuds until you played on the upper fret (10th maybe?). Then the difference was totally negligible.
But, I would agree with you. The difference was so small that anyone playing the daylights out of the guitar would be hard-pressed to notice any tonal difference. However, if the player has learned to control and utilize feedback in their playing, it might be a totally different story. Wax-potting might very well overly inhibit their playing style.
With a couple funny quirps, I see ugene levy. Nice comparison. I liked the wax sound because it took some shrill away.