Maffetone Low HR Training After 2 Years: The Positives & BIG Negatives
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- Опубліковано 3 сер 2024
- Low heart rate training (or Maffetone Training) is an excellent way to build your aerobic fitness so you're able to run longer, bike longer and get your endurance up. I've been doing MAF training for running for almost 2 years now and I've had some great benefits with it... but with all things good there are bad - there must be balance in the force. MAF training is no different. These downsides are now adding up and I need to make a choice: continue with pure MAF, or switch to something a little different. Here is my story.
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CHAPTERS
00:00 INTRO
00:47 What is MAF Training?
01:06 MAF Performance After 2 Years
03:25 Mental Changes With MAF After 2 Years
05:35 Why I'm Stopping MAF
Maffetone Low HR Training After 2 Years: The Positives & BIG Negatives - Спорт
MAF training keeps me injury free (I’m turning 40 in a few months). I have 2 rest days, one long run, 1 semi long run, 1 speed day, and 2 recovery runs. It’s been a year since I started and I used to run a half marathon in 2:35:00 with an average HR of 160. My best half is now 1:38:13 with HR also around 160 average. My previous time (@11:50/mile) will have me around 130 average HR
Good results. What do you do for speed work ?
Thanks for sharing. I think all the “downsides” you mention, are just personal issues you have, that could be easily overcome. Thanks again, your video convinced me to stick with MAF.
You went from 7 to 5.5 pace with out injury and your never sore. And that’s a problem?
I combine MAF with Niko Niko training (Japanese slow jogging) which recommends keeping a 180 cadence. Niko Niko relies on perceived exertion using the Borg Scale but I use my HR monitor to keep my rate within my MAF ceiling. Niko Niko focuses on form so you don’t get the same sloppy/slouching form issue. V similar to MAF in fact but more focused on form and cadence. I treat my runs as an opportunity to meditate so that gets rid of the obsession about HR or worrying about how fast I’m going.
Great video! I came across this video just at the right time after 2 years of MAF training.
Now I feel encouraged to continue with Maf-methods, because the issues you mentioned are understandable, yet avoidable. My performance seems to skyrocket since I try to run within aerobic zone, the mental changes are fantastic (I made a U turn and started looking forward to the next session, instead of to the next break within a session, which my body forced me to take), the physical issues seem to disappear abruptly, although I had them for two years and it was a long list, and for the first time in my life, just the thought of a marathon turned from 'way too much' , above and beyond 'tolerable' even up towards 'exciting idea'. I can resonate with this obsession to watch the heart rate, but I didn't turn into tyranny. I am not a failure or weak when I can't maintain the zone, because (in later sessions) it was never my goal to be perfect altogether, but the goal was to a) get experience and answer the question "how does that feel for you running aerobic?" just once, and b) use that experience to shape the next decisions around training. I was confused while running, like, "wait a little, what was important again? Being within the zone all the time? No. Perfectly? No. In case the rate contradicts my own feeling, what's more important? Feeling. What is the end goal of heart rate training? Maybe in the future, I can blindly run aerobic because I learned it with my body." And, by accident, I found out a) how to run a lot longer without feeling tired and b) how to spice that up in case 100 % slow-style is too boring (add intervals). I wanted to add speed work after a few days with heart rate training because going home after 21 km and feeling so confused because my body said I didn't really do anything felt frustrating. To cut it short: Be gentle with yourself, you don't deserve to be treated so harshly as if you failed at something of utmost importance. Be nice to yourself, ask your body and all other parts if some speed work could solve a lot of issues. Hope you feel better after two years, cheers from Germany :)
My key to maintaining higher cadence at lower paces is you guessed it......shorten my stride. I normally run with a higher cadence. Average is 179 on most runs. 5k races will hover around 195. That 179 cadence includes slower easy days just putting around in zone 2. I have always wondered how anyone can't figure that one key factor out. It is a typical complaint when running in lower heart rate zones. That their form breaks down drastically at slower paces and they feel like it is more work. It's pretty simple just shorten your stride, maintain a higher heel lift and stay light on your feet. Think like a ninja and run quietly. Everything will fall into place after that.
I think it might be helpful for people to imagine they do trail run or run on hot coals. I like the feeling of being bouncy on my low HR runs and when I pass people who run at 160 it looks gross and unhealthy.
THIS is the answer!!!
Yes!
I’m finding it difficult to raise cadence without increasing vertical oscillation. I expect my pace will improve enough to hold form faster than I can learn low stride length technique as I continue MAF training.
You just like ninja
Great post! Also, First Lake (and Second Lake) are my favourite areas to run!
It’s not ALL your runs, you should read the book(s) and your cadence is incorrect at the low HR, the problem is not MAF, the problem is incorrect use of MAF…
Yup.
Too much to have to Think about. Takes the fun out of running. I honestly don't give a shit about cadence. I tried to run at 90 cadence, but it feels to me like pedalling down hill on a bike in 1st gear.
As a newish but older runner (58 now, started when I was 56) I did MAF for the first 8 months and I think it was just what I needed. But it just got too frustrating to have to walk so much to stay under my MAF heartrate, so eventually I quit and just went by perceived effort. I still think it's important to do most of my running in easy mode but I don't worry too much about what the MAF formula says that should be anymore.
I think that's a great way to approach training!! 👍
Brah. Keep the maf for 80% of the runs and add hill sessions, thresholds, and track sessions. And you’re spm and form will improve naturally.
I quit MAF for a few reasons. I'm 54 and it's just too arbitrary. I'm not buying that i should be running at such a low target heart rate compared to a 25 year old solely based on age with a few beats here and there depending on experience. It felt much more effort to run slowly than to run a comfortable slow pace and likewise have better form. I wasn't feeling as fit as I did prior to embarking on MAF training. I switched to perceived effort again and I'm finding my heart rate coming down purely through consistency. As long as I'm running at a pace to maintain an injury free run, I'm feeling the same benefits. I'm not saying it's a bad thing to do MAF training but I don't think it's for everyone.
I've also been doing mostly Maffetone training for the last 2+ years! I get all your complaints. That being said, I started adding "normal" (175 - 185 bpm) cadence into it and after about 4-6 months, I can do both. I agree that the positives are getting more mileage in without destroying the body and incurring injury. But I am now doing 80/20 MAF vs non-MAF and see that my body is responding well to that.
I think I'll have a very similar split, when I was training for ironman I would always do my blocks in 80/20 splits and it worked really well! Can't wait to get back to some harder sessions!
May I ask why not mix and match MAF? Is that a bad idea? Im new runner(ish) (Cov19 era) , using heart rate for recovery runs or easy runs. While using RPE for trainging runs and hill repeats. Its true what you say though I feel im addicated to looking at my heart rate 😅.
Myself training rules 1) Running Fourm 2) Strenght 3) MAF. Im also now focusing on more speed/pace but so shocked seeing my heart be at "MAF" at faster paces. And then while doing intervals I use MAF hearte rate a cooldown, instead walking or stopping. My MAF moments as a beginner, i used to practice running fourm and made sure to finish will 2x15sec strides.
Thanks to a lot running channels i didnt commit to MAF alone. But MAF has helped me to go on more runs when i didnt feel like it and its become my Zone 2 easy state runs. It does feel good to push it without think of your heart, i just have new focus obession my breathing 😅
Wish you all best, new sub. Look forward to your up coming content 🤙
you are suppouse to implement speedwork around 2-3 months once on maf (i think) with around 20% speed work and 80% maf,
have you just been doing maf for 2 years?
Such similar experience. As a new 42 year old runner I ran MAF 100% of the time except for 4 race days for 13 months. I say I “ran”, only a hand full of times did I actually get to jog a entire KM with out walking. MAF did left me run every day (never sore) and It got me to my goal distance of 42kms. But walking as much as I did it didn’t feel satisfying. It also kept me from tuning with any friends :( Also not good. After my marathon I lost motivation for about 6 months, but now I’m getting back into it. No more MAF this time.
I’m almost 40. Use MAF for off-season base training/building or if you are injury prone. But if we only train MAF, then we’re only training ourselves to run slow. Your body will panic when you try to abruptly add speed. I now do MAF for 80% of my miles. The other 20% (sometimes 30%) is 2-3 minutes faster per mile for speedwork
Been waiting for someone on youtube to make a video like this. Call it Real talk about MAF. I found the same things you did. Sloppy, heavy, plodding form. Weirdly even though I was doing 12 min miles the impact felt heavy compared to the bouncy springy sensation of faster paces. I realized MAF is a great tool, but not the only tool to make myself a more complete runner. SOOO looking forward to this series!!
Absolutely agree, MAF is a wonderful tool, I especially like it for newer runners so they don't go to hard too fast and injure themselves. But frig, I need some speed and excitement in my life!! Looking forward to changing things up :-)
Hi friend. Im fit 43 my heart rate supposed to be 137 max but always in my east runs i am like 115 125 Just in hills it might come to 136 does this mean i need to speed up???
Yes ! I think if you goal is to get faster . You should speed up à little on flat and down Hill. Keep up the good work
I have a question about MAF training. Would maf benefit me if I'm a casual runner? I only run about two 5ks a week though I'm hoping to add another day. My 5k time is typically around 24mins if i try pretty hard. I'm just wondering if I should just keep running as fast as I think I can when I run, or would maf be more beneficial to me?
MAF isn't a wonder cure all. It's just creating awareness you don't have to run all out all the time. Zone 2, Seiler, MAF, Attia, Lydiard, Fitzgerald ,...it's all the same. Keep it easy most of the time and get in some speed when close to races. Other than that, it's all marketing :)
Firstly, MAF does not stand for Maffetone.
Secondly, it should be used as building a base. Once that aerobic base is built, train with other methods. Not 95% of your runs MAF method.
Just found some other videos says in logic, doing the same portion of training won't increase our ability. Just can't understand how MAF training increase our ability without speed play training variation?
one can jog in place with a cadence monitor or metronome and convince themselves that they can pick whatever cadence they want, even up into the 210s or 220s is not 'difficult' ... they can also note that there HR doesn't get very high b/c the muscular work is mostly a function of how far you lean out vertical as this switches on your musculature. So if one wants to practice a 185 cadence at HR of say 140, they can just jog in place at 185, then start to lean forward a tad, check HR in 2 minutes and adjust their forward lean accordingly! 'running' can become much easier if you approach it this way.
@4:42 why I don't wear the watch outside of running. I don't 'want' the watch telling me things.
Brendon, you really hit on something that's a big deal with runners. Our world is so full of metrics that we lose sight of what's most important and that's RPE. Your point exactly.
I've definitely fallen into the data trap, I need to dig myself out of it!! I hope you're having a great weekend!
Interesting. I run around 175-185 @ my MAF/Aerobic pace. But my break-up of training is pretty close to 80/20. I think if you are doing 90+% Aerobic you might want to add in one day of shorter fartleks of like 5 x 2 mins on / 2 mins off sandwiched between a MAF warm-up + cooldown. You might see more pep in your step!
Hey Brian! That's a really good idea actually, and likely the best thing to do before I transition to more of an 80/20 approach for racing. It's going to be tough to get these lazy legs moving fast again!! Thanks for tuning and for the suggestion :)
Do I understand correctly that your MAF pace after two years is still around 7:00 / km? Because if so then mostly something is not done right. You should be able to see a drop after 110 days if you do everything right. MAF training is not only the heart rate zone, but also sleeping, stress management, food and getting your body to switch to fat burning. If you are not making progression something is off and you should look at the other pillars of MAF. Are you eating according to MAF (more Ketogenic)?
For the cadence you can run downhill or do the run and walk technique so you can run faster. Also it is fine if you do 10% above MAF. For example you can finish strong. Did you also do strength training?
My body loves slow jogging. My energy levels high. I wake up and feel like by body wants to go for a slow shuffle. I think it’s the rebound effect. All the tissues go up and crash down 3 times a second. Rejuvenates all the tissues in ur body. I think if goal to be a runner, build up to the 7 hours of this a week like the MAF people say is optimal. Then add the fast stuff. At the moment I’m doing strength work in the gym and body weight exercises. So while build up to 7 hours total a week I’m strengthening all the muscle groups to be a fast runner. Glutes hams, hip flexors and core. Calf raises and quads. postural muslces and keeping shoulders back. Strength doesn’t interfere with zone 2 training said on a Huberman podcast, or only does at extremes. Not that I’m even doing zone 2 training. Not Maff, build up to 7 hours shuffling, get a HR rate watch with a HR alarm then as have a bad track record of sticking with things. Add speed work at that point as well. I want my body to tolerate the slamming down of each running step for 7 hours a week before adding other stuff. I think by NOT doing high heart rate means always relaxed and muscles not fatigued so lots of opportunity to learn subtle full body coordination and strengthen the weakest links and not have body flopping everywhere uncontrollably cause exhausted while not coordinated the reason for RSI type injury. Have a recovery method in place before adding load. Also do 2 sessions maybe 3 a day of shuffling, then when hit 60min a day total , condense those to one session a day more and more times in a week. Also Maybe when can do 3 in a row multi session days in a row totalling 60min add fartleks. Dr galpin I think said can do strength and speed work everyday so that for me was HUGE. So Maff plus just touch stop speed a few times most days. Lunges 60% max reps most days. Nordic ham variations, don’t kill the muscle tissue and can work them every day. I want to know how hard can do the strength work every day. Not sure how to get that info as he didn’t touch that in his talk.
Are you doing the MAF test? It’s the key. Read Chapter 6 In Phil’s Yellow book to add Anerobic. It no problem until your MAF test suffers then you are starting to overtrain.
low heart rate training is very very tricky,oneday everything falls in place and the next day people walking normally overtake me😅
Especially in the summer, my HR is sooo impacted by the heat and humidity!
You should always integrate HIT and/or tempo runs with MAFF but not only MAFF 5-6 times a week. For me it helped to get a PB in Chicago by 8 Min
The number one BiG negative is that it's so time consuming
my cadence went from 175 avg to 165 avg,now even in somewhat fast pace i struggle to reach 170 avg.
I know!!! It's fricken annoying. My legs feel so slow hahaah.
They are upset running at at 6/7 pace.. lol. My pace is 10/11 smh.. I used to be at a 8 and was happy! After a running accident it’s hard getting back to that.. my heart keeps reaching 160.. but I enjoy the process. I hope one day I can do 6/7 minute miles..
If you're doing couch-to-5k, the focus is just on maintaining a jog (not walking). If you then also build to 5+ hours of that slow jogging per week, it should be at a very low exertion. You can't do that kind of volume at an average pace that feels tough for you. I think it should be fine to build training volume until your MAF pace is comfortable (you don't feel like you have to shuffle or stop to walk all the time). It's not comfortable to jog too slow.
The problem with MAF is that, despite the insistence by Maffetone that it is a personalized plan, literally any plan that uses age as a measuring stick instead of actually finding the maximum heart rate and/or the threshold heart rate is based on an outdated hypothesis that is wrong for 35% of the population and wrong by double digits for 10% of the population. My max is about 20 higher than age suggests.
That being said, when you mentioned several hard days in a row, I think that you may have swung the pendulum too far the other way. Arthur Lydiard took the advice of Pete Seeger that he got from Solomon that "to everything there is a season." Unless you have a lot of fast-twitch muscles or are focusing on a short event like the 800, you really shouldn't be doing more than one or two speed sessions a week in the peak building season, or maybe one plus a race in the main part of race season. Slow jogging helped me a lot when I got injured to try to find a way back into it, but come August, once I start to get back to a good weight and get this season out of the way, I'm going to switch to Lydiard training since my main focus is the mile and 5K.
Aw found this video; 80/20 is key.
Are we sure that MAF is the best method to calculate our zone 2 (in a zone5-model)? That puts the top of my zone 2 at 130, while Karvonen method suggests 146. Even after 3 years of regular running, I'd have to jog & walk to stay under 130, but can enjoy a less boring and more gratifying run if I can get up to 146. Rate of perceived exertion suggests that 144-146 is about right as upper end of my easy zone. Those who get frustrated by MAF should give other methods to calculate their zone 2 a try, check those zone 2 limits up against RPE and they may find out that other methods "agree" better with their perceived exertion than MAF does..
That's something I've always been curious about. My wife has a naturally high resting heart so when she starts to exercise it shoots up well above her "MAF" heart rate, even though she's not out of breath or showing any signs of physical strain. I heard something about breathing through your nose as a good measure of exertion and zone 2 estimation, apparently if you're able to breath through the nose when exercising you're at a zone 2 intensity, it gets increasingly difficult as intensity increases. I've actually been doing that lately and it seems to work decent for me!
I am sorry to tell you. But Dr. Phil Mafettone never proposed to do 100% low heart rate training for your whole life long.
His proposal is 1 amount of time (resp. until your performance at MAF begins to plateau) building up your aerobic engine (usually 4-8 months depending on your starting point) with low HR training and in a following phase add speed work for race prep.
In the latter stages of your MAF base building phase there is no red light for some stride outs, finish speed ups, or other neuromuscular work in your base endurance runs for your running GAIT.
After watching this, I am wondering, why do you run?
I run for various reasons, mental health, physical health, the challenge of it, pushing my limits, proving to myself I can do hard things. Running can be used for so many different things and for me it evolves all the time!
been there
Yeah, I feel like it's a common thing with MAF, or any low HR training really! Thanks for tuning in :)
I don't mind the lsd but I definitely have one faster day a week
I'm looking forward to adding some faster spice into my training!!
I tried this today. Sooo slowww
after 2 years you should have been doing 80/20 since a year ago
It destroyed the fasique of your stride locomotion
that seems odd ur posture and cadence got worse. would think since going slow you would mean put effort into sorting technique as thats all you have to work with.
5:30/km at 150HR is not fast? I wish.
so if you are 70 you should hover at 110 bpm???? no way...
I'm 63 and use 130 as it is recommended for runners over 50 to increase your MAF zone. It works well for me.
In 2 months its come back. U can insert 1 fast day and this dont will happen. Based on wat i search kk
Doing one training mode exclusively for 2 years will limit you, for sure.
You did not get MAF training after two years.
I think you missed the point of MAF training? Probably being dramatic for running channel purposes. Creating issues that don’t actually exist. At first I thought maybe I missed the point of MAF training, so when I went to Phil Maffetone’s website, sure enough it says speed work is critically important. So not sure why you are only 100% running low HR after two years. You built your base and if you understood MAF training principles would have incorporated speed work. Anyway, just wanted to clear that up.
When You go thru Phil's method , in any of his books, you can notice that there is a place for anaerobic training, formal or thru racing.
Did you take this into consideration?
The Big Book of Endurance Training and Race, chapter 6, describes how to properly take speed training into consideration....
Best regards
Exactly. Speed work is not inconsistent with MAF training: in fact, it is part of it.
If you would read the book. Mr Phil only suggests you follow the slow heart rate training for about 2 months. Then you add in speed work. If you would do weekly tempo runs you will find your heart rate is lower on your easy days. There are other people on the net voicing the same complaints you have. Who have also not bothered to read what the guy has written. He learned this from Arthur Lydiard . The legendary New Zeeland coach. Then after a race build up and racing season. You repeat the process. DO YOUR HOMEWORK then feel free to make a fool out of yourself
your cadence is sub optimal because your form is poor and vice versa. shorten your stride, stand up straight and stop mouth breathing ;) nasal breathing in the aerobic zone bro, be upright, shorten your stride, cadence will become 180