@@pictureBigger I'm no mechanic but from my 4wding experience 4L is the same as 4H however its a different gear ratio which gives more torque, just think kinda about going up a very steep hill, Second Gear will be much easier to get up the hill than 5th gear, 4H is kinda like 5th gear made for going fast and 4L is for more torque and less rotations. P.S If anyone wants to correct me then feel free but I think even if I'm wrong I'm still on the right idea
@@Raven-cf5qd you are right mate....in 4L no change occurs in the engine characteristics but in the way the power is channelled to the wheels......in 4L a separate gear is provided in the transfer case which limits the rpm being transferred to the wheels......since for the same power, torque is inversely proportional to the rpm so we get an increased torque output and low rpm at the wheels.....
Ronny, Subaru Foresters are fantastic on sand. They've had no trouble doing the Simpson and Hay River track on trips with our club. Didn't have to pull them out anywhere. The Land Rover soft roaders are truly excellent as well. They do lock the centre power transfer unit on specific terrain response programs and the LR traction control is first class. You are absolutely correct about the strength of the under body components. The good soft roaders will strip pinions and gears remarkably easy in tough situations.
@@AngryTurds Because it was a part time 4WD with a proper hi-lo transfer case. I had an RX coupe - same shape and drivetrain as the Brumby, with the exception of an LSD in the rear and dual twin throat carbs (that thing was a monster). I bought it for skifield access roads & gravel roads - and for that purpose it was excellent - almost unstoppable, but as soon as underbody clearance became an issue e.g. snow deeper than about 20cm, or rocks, or soft sand, then it was game over, and the real 4WDs would just keep on keeping on.
Subaru also has a 50/50 split in their symmetrical AWD system. You can also get a bigger centre diff viscous coupling (20kg) and rear auto lockers are available. I've even seen a Forester do the $1000 track.
i agree in some parts although I have a "Softroader" that goes almost ALL places that my "Offroader" friends venture too. 2018 Outback 2018 seems to go almost everywhere. Beach work across Fraser Island, I never had any issues in the 5 days of venturing. I am a basic learner driver.
Subarus and Mitsubishis typically have a limited slip type of center differential and many have factory rear LSD's. I even put an auto-locker in the front of my 95 Eagle Talon (2nd gen Eclipse basically) it will beat a 4x4 in snow dirt and grass until the sports car ground clearance becomes an issue lol
I was hoping someone commented this. A lot of the AWD CUVs are quite capable with the right tires. The Foz and X-Trail/Rogue are some I've seen people do extreme stuff with, especially Russians.
As a 30 year auto technician, I thought this was a very good explanation of the different systems. There are always exceptions to the full time and awd systems, but they are rare.
I've done Big Red 3 times in my Subaru XV twice from the West and once from the east. I've driven fire trails, Stockton beach, meneree loop rd etc. AWD drives are quite capable for most off road work.
A minor correction. In a 4WD you get bind up between the front and the rear, not between R and L sides. Without F or R dif lockers R and L sides are free to spin a different rates, but the front and rear drive shats must spind the same rate. Going around a turn the front wheels (combined) travel a greater distance than the rear wheels combined. So the F driveshaft/wheels must spin faster than the rear driveshaft/wheels.
Having owned both 4WD and Subaru (AWD) I can say both have their advantages. You cant compare say a Subaru AWD with a Honda CRV or RAV 4 etc as only Subaru have the technology that leaves these cars behind. For heavy duty off road, heavy towing and water crossings a diesel 4WD is the go. A lot of 4WD comes down to 3 things.... Tyre choice, tyre pressure and driver skill. My Subaru will eat most large 4WD's on sand as it's much lighter has produces more power than a lot of its bigger friends plus it's way more fun. But all AWD's are not the same either. If you want some fun, a good all round vehicle then Subarus are great cars and IMO the best choice. But if your towing a caravan, will be negotiating steep rutty hills or deep water then go the bigger car.
Now that was a fair review David. I was a little miffed by Ronny'e selective generalisations, half baked stories and even some misrepresentation. I think with this vid, he let us (his audience) down by repeating half truths, omitting facts and making misleading statements.
@@MiniLuv-1984 I found his sand comment misleading as my little turbo out does most large 4wd cars except those who have paid huge money for modifications. One thing he didn't mention was price, a huge factor when choosing a car for anyone.
I have a 2015 Dacia Duster diesel (a Duster is pictured at the end of the video) with a 2 inch Bilstein lift, 29.5 inch BFG K02s, a rear Torsen auto locker, an engine remap, full skid plating, winch and a snorkel. It’s a beast.
One thing that should be noted about AWDs as well is that if you're seeing a lot of slip a lot of them will eventually overheat. They're not designed to always be sending power both front and back (Subaru being the exception).
Outdated info on AWD! New Subarus will fully lock the center diff when it needs to to gain traction and it uses abs to give traction left to right. Hondas actually can even transfer power left to right up to complete lock although it really doesn't work as well as the Subarus. Not trying to say it compares to a 4wd with lockers but it is much better on snow or sand because the center diff allows the front wheels to be a different speed then the rears for turning.
Good on driving beach sand maybe when the terrain is pretty much flat, but I'd love to see your Suburu keep up with a Patrol going up and around the rutted soft sand dunes of Wilbinga (WA). The lack of clearance and lack of vertical wheel travel will let you down
Honda doesn’t work as good as Subaru? The ones in the USA have arguably the best AWD system in the world right now. Look at both these Instagram video clips and see why. By the way, not even a 4x4 with traction control will get up this obstacle, so you’re right... Ronny’s info is outdated. instagram.com/p/BwPLMv-Hi3F/?igshid=f2jgq2xgisz1
I drive one of the original AWD's that can be made 4 WD. It is a bit unique in that it used a limited slip differential for the center diff which sent more power to the axle with more traction. It works extremely well in loose traction situations. The center diff can also be locked to turn the drive into true 4x4 if needed and has low range, which was a option for that era. Thanks for the video, George.
AWD vs 4WD is hugely different, I've noticed that lately there has been some All Wheels driving around with decent off road traction control systems. You'd be surprised but certainly they are different systems but some can achieve similar results. Subaru's been doing a decent job, even I was surprised. I also seen a Holden Commodore AWD 2 weeks ago in a spot where I had my Jeep and I gotta tell ya I had no idea about how capable they where until I had seen it myself.
Might have been us we recall running into a Jeep 2-3 years ago in the high country, on Burgoynes Track? You told us we had no chance, yet you where behind us the whole way to Chromite Mine Tk and couldn't believe it before pulling off to setup for camp? We're still going same vehicle, today - been even tougher places!
Im an avid true 4wd owner but have driven some AWD in off-road tracks. Some AWD can have the centre diff locked 50/50. The lack of articulation and clearance are their Achilles heal. Steve
He's not really fully explaining the entirety of AWD though. Check out my longer comment about this. Mechanical AWD is not the same as 'Traction Control AWD' as Ronny discusses.
Ronny your the only one to actually explain the difference in a style anyone can understand ---- I got dobbed off trying to tell a Honda CRV owner ---- showed them this video ---- brilliant 🤗
My former Subaru Legacy was an AWD but it had a transfer with low range. It was a "weapon" climbing rocky roads. Only its 2 inches clearance penalized it :D.
Thank you! I took my battle wagon places it was never ment to go and it always pulled though. ( looks at wagon Hey you know you weren't ment to ford that river? You were supposed to get stuck cause awd isn't 4x4. Car looks back" your here and dry arnt you what's your complaint?) Lol :)
Good vid. My mate's son has been driving his old Forester on Moreton for years. He's a good driver despite his age, he gets away with it by using momentum etc but, as you said, once a wheel leaves the ground in soft sand it's all over. Driver skill is the most important factor. I've seen so many people in big 4x4s stuck in situations they shouldn't have been in because of poor choices. Keep doing what you do.
I love your channel. I have owned both systems... a 2013 Subaru Forester, and a litany of 4WD's; currently a Jeep Wrangler 4door with lockers. In deep snow and mud I swear that the Subaru was better (if ground clearance was not the issue). I will say this with 100% confidence... AWD is better than an unlocked 4WD. If you don't have lockers in your 4WD then AWD is absolutely better without even a second guess. That is based upon years of off roading in many different vehicles. 4WD with lockers is the best. If you are not getting lockers then get AWD.
Ronny do not know that many if not most AWD already have built in something akin to center diff lock with certain power split between front and rear, usually between range 45-55 if not right 50-50, applying all time. And the way the traction control works is already mimicking the function of LSD for both front and rear, to send torque to non spinning wheel while braking the one that does. If in any case there is the need to lock the front/rear, one can just turn off the traction control system and both wheel left and right will act as if locked. At this point, the only difference in capability mostly determined by wheel size, tyre type, ground clearance, suspension articulation, and engine size/power.
Great explication of 4wd. I would say you don’t quite understand how most awd systems work. Most of them actually activate a 50 50 split once there is a wheel slip or a torque inconsistency. My awd is not as capable as a good 4wd at all. But the awd system has never ever failed me. I have literally never got stuck because I didn’t have 4wd. As soon as I’m in a rough spot I go straight into a 50 50 split. The whole thing with one wheel loosing traction is total bs. Maybe in an awd Prius or something lol. Where I do fall short is no low range. That’s what really gets me. That 4 low in real 4wds is a major weapon
When I first got my Discovery 1 I went for a drive in the Adelaide Hills looking for dirt tracks to explore. I found one and headed down it. quickly turning to scrub I couldn't turn around. No problem, I'll just reverse up the track. Put it in reverse and started spinning a rear wheel but not going anywhere. As you know the Discovery 1 is full time 4WD BUT being new to the car I had forgotten to lock the center diff. I was essentially now a 1 wheel drive vehicle as it sent all the power to the path of least resistance with all 3 diffs open. As soon as I locked the center diff i easily crawled out and was able to reverse up the track with no problem at all. Had that have been a standars AWD vehicle I would have had to acll for help. Another situation I found myself in, I went camping with a mate who had the same Discovery but he had front and real lockers. he looked at this steep rocky climb and pointed his car right at it. I heard the buzzing of the compressor locking the diffs, his wife got out and looked away and he easily crawled up this hill with well worn AT tyres. I had a go, same vehicle but i had new mud tyres and I had NO chance getting up this rocky climb as the rocks had the axels crossed up and I just span oposite corners. Speaks for itself really doesn't it. the more lockable diffs you have the better. The slower you can attack obstacles with less damage to the track and your vehicle. But I have also heard it said with lockers you can also get yourself in more trouble, I guess that comes down to the driver knowing the vehicle.
Had a mate do the same thing and forget about the CDL in his new defender, was mostly embarrassing for him cos I'd gone straight up the hill in question in my bravo.
Locked differentials can cause the vehicle to swerve. A good example is watching a (2WD) Pre Runner climb a hill with the rear diff locked: it will swerve to one side. In a crucial scenario, like driving on a slippery ledge, you're better off going open diff unless or until you need to lock up, to avoid any swerving around.
Thanks for the video! My wife has an AWD Rav4 and I do like that she has the option to “lock” the vehicle into an AWD state, which basically makes it an open diff 4wd that you cannot go over 25mph in. I don’t think it sends as much power to the rear as a standard 4wd, but it makes it much better if stuck in a static position. Also why we take my truck when we go anywhere truly offroad!
The lock state locks the center diff making it the same as what 4WD high range would be in a conventional 4x4 system....but you are speed limited to 25mph in the RAV4 with that center diff lock engaged, it sends 50/50 torque front/rear when you lock it in AWD....it does work great, got to play with a 2018 RAV4 AWD for several days as a loaner while my truck was in the shop, and got lucky, we had 10 inches of snow that I got to play in. I have to say with the stock all season tires and just letting the AWD system figure things out itself, it did very well, but you could really tell a difference when you'd lock it in AWD it would spin all 4's quite easily but it would get itself moving much easier too.
@@HardstylePete Why do we have a different definition of "Anywhere"? We use my wifes Rav4 for commuting and basic road trips (but it is nice to have AWD if needed), and we use my 4x4 truck anytime we are going "anywhere" off road, i.e. intentionally off road.
DISAGREE - hey Ronny love your work BUT I think this was an overstated vid. I am 61 years old and served in the Army for 35 years learning to drive an old series 1 LR at 21. Your comparo is innacurate in a few areas. Your comparison of your massive iron horses with every conceivable gadget on them compared to (your pics) of standard AWD bogged is totally misleading. If you put a set of AT's and a lift kit on most AWD's they will go thru sand with no dramas. The reason you see so many bogged is because the drivers are weekend wannabees. Have a look back at the Paris/Dakar rallies of the past and you will see the famous VW T3 Syncro smash the rest of the field 2 years in a row. The newer T5/6's are now the support vehicles for these rallies full to the brim of spares and tools and following (albeit slower) the competition vehicles. If you travel across Europe and North Africa these AWD's (with Haldex system) go anywhere except the harshest Rock Climbing (that is the one area you need your massive rigs I agree) - sand, mud, ice and deserts - bring it on. I did big red last year in my VW T6 fully lifted with 'Dakar' suspension and it ate it much to the disgust of the massive LC rigs who had a run up of nearly a K to get up - some didn't and drove the side track back to B/ville in disgust. I had people running over to ask me to do it again so they could get it on vid. YEP I can give you all the pics and vids of all of it. Just give me your email address. If not just Google VW Transporter in Morrocco or T5 Offroad to see all the Eu vids of what the Haldex system is now accomplishing. Great work mate love your stuff.
Did the Subaru have BFG AT KO2s/3s or standard tires? was the Subaru lifted like your truck. Comparing peaches to Apples? Did the Subaru have the available rear lockers? hmmm...
Watched your video of your VW going up Big Red and it is indeed very impressive. But big red is easy mode in comparison to some of the big sandhills we have here in Western Australia where they have heaps of deep ruts that will cause any car without high clearance or enough wheel articulation to stop dead in its tracks. www.tiktok.com/@leandroygonia/video/6833322075877313797
Well said indeed. I think they screwed up a bit with this video. Even with full time 4wd when one wheel starts spinning,you're done.Unless you've got a centre diff lock. A good AWD system with a good ABS/Traction Control is far more capable than got said in the videos.That and the fact that all pictures if 4wd cars were heavenly modified against a bog standard Subaru with even a boat trailer behind it.AWD cars just need to be driven different than 4wd cars,as said by Roger Preston,the drivers are to blame in most cases.Even the best kitted out 4WD truck will fail if the driver has no clue how things work. Fact is that overlanding doesn't mean Australia only.It very much depends were you going and in some places a very expensive fully kitted out JAP truck isn't the wise vehicle to take with youd
M Slagter guys, you’re missing the point. Forget about the vehicles depicted in this video. We are talking fundamental differences between 4WD and AWD. A great driver in a awd vehicle will go even further in a 4WD - that’s the point.
Broke Wrench super select can be 2H / 4H /4HLc / 4LLc which means 2wd-awd- 4x4H - 4x4L... and some models of the fourth generation has rear diff lockers...
My understanding of the lockers, for arguments sake let’s say Full time 4WD like a new parado or 200. When your driving everyday, power to all 4 wheels as directed by TC or what ever management system. Locking the central diff now mechanicaly dictates that 50% goes to the front and 50% to the back. Further locking front and rear axels on their diff then dictates 25% power to each wheel regardless of load. So a crossed up full locked truck would still be sending balanced power to all wheels, the big difference is there is no loss of that power because it’s mechanicaly locked
I’ve taken my 2005 Hyundai Santa 2.7 V6 all over Stockton Beach and sand hills, no worries , only minor problem was the lower ground clearance. I let my tyres town to give me a greater foot print, that’s it. As I understand it is a full time 4x4 system. Maybe I was lucky I now have a new 2020 Santa Fe 2.2 diesel. Just drove it across deep soft sand onto the beach at Minni Waters on the NSW north coast all the way to Sandon. Across the soft sand up a hill, then the sand track into Sandon. Again ground clearance wasn’t an issue, but took it easy, chose my lines carefully. This system I believe is a part time set up. I locked it into 4 wheel drive, I didn’t even let the tyres down, not a problem, it was amazing. Then did it all in reverse. I waited to low tide to make sure I had plenty of time to get off incase of dramas. I was very impressed with both my Hyundai’s. I would never take it anywhere too serious, they are not meant for it. Having said that, I have had had a little bit of experience with a Suzuki Vitara I owned. These blokes are a little bit on themselves just get pissed off when they see a family sedan sitting on a sand hill next to there expensive set ups!
I will just add one thing. Some "AWD" systems do without a center differential. Wait, what? I know right. Think Honda CR-V or Toyota RAV4. These are vehicles don't drive all the wheels all the time. The CR-V and RAV4 are default front wheel drive and engage a clutch to send some power to the rear axle. A clutch costs less than a differential and these systems are designed to keep costs low. That is also why all of the driveline components are smaller. But, to preserve the drivetrain components the clutch is designed to never fully engage and always have at least some slip, in essence using clutch slip to simulate a center differential. These systems are essentially part-time AWD. Some off the newer ones are a little better, but how good it is off road can vary between make, model, trim, and even options. Be sure of what you are getting before you buy, especially in the used market.
The Opinion of Matt I have a 2004 Saturn vue with AWD and I think it’s this “part time AWD” system you’re talking about, because the rear wheels only engage when the car detects loss of traction in the front. 99 percent of the time it’s only using the front wheels. I will admit, this system has gotten me out of deep snow very well before, but I wouldn’t use it for rough off roading.
My 25 year old FWD sedan doesn't have a lock to send equal torque to both wheels, but when it senses free-wheelng, it just actuates only that brake caliper, so then the torque has no other place to go than the other wheel :) Thanks whoever at Citroen / Bosch came up with that. Combined with the stock hydraulic suspension, it has gotten me out of some off-road binds.
To be honest I’ve had both 4wd and AWD, but never been a rock crawler, desert and mountain hunting mostly. My current rig is a V6 AWD Ford Edge with engine mods, tow package , a lift, Firestone ATs , a winch and skid plates. No issues so far. Did it cause it was paid off and my wife said I could😊
I can remember left foot braking in an old jeep that had open front and rear diffs just to apply resistance to the spinning wheel on the axel so the other size would pull you out.
Its now called brake lock differentials (Jeep's BLD as they call it) LOL....just done with electronics through the ABS and traction control systems now rather than the driver doing it themselves.
There is a ton great info here ronny, but Im going to say what I'm going to say because I'm a stickler for the nerdier points. so when we talk about torque split (50/50 etc) it's important to remember the difference between nominal and maximum torque split. A lot of people get tripped up here. with a part time, for example, the nominal torque split is 50% to either axle but its maximum can be (more or less) 0:100 or 100:0. Where people get in trouble is when a company advertised that 50% of torque can be sent to the back axle in an on-demand system so people think "oh 50/50, like 4wd." no. It means that up to 50% can be sent to the back and no more, meaning no less than 50% will always go to the front axle, even if the back axle is commanding 75% such as going up a steep hill. with part time/locked torque potential follows tractive resistance, with on-demand systems the back axle gets what it gets and thats it. The other thing is that there are about a billion 4wd vs awd videos and the reason they keep happening is that the terms are needlessly confusing. The SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) has addressed this in a technical paper (SAE-J1952). They recommended dropping the 4wd moniker all-together and while that sounds like sacrilege it actually makes a lot of sense as we already distinguish between part time and full time and it covers scenarios with more than 4 wheels. Their list calls ALL systems AWD but groups them like so: Part-time nonsynchro Part-time synchro Full-time fixed torque Full-time variable-torque passive Full-time variable-torque active On-demand synchro variable-torque passive On-demand synchro variable-torque active On-demand independently powered variable-torque active Boiled down there are 3 basic types Part time AWD, Full time AWD and On-demand AWD. on demand is what most people would call "AWD" today in that power is sent to the non-primary axle as requested mechanically or electrically and is generally disengaged when no torque is commanded. This helps classify some "AWD" systems that are much better off-road than others. i.e. a Manual transmission subarus are classified as a full time variable-torque passive, just like my 80 series is before I lock the center. Where the CVT versions are classified as On-demand synchro variable-torque active much like most crossovers. Another way to think about is that on-dmeand AWD systems are partial use AWD, meant to engage and then disengage, where full time awd is meant to be fully engaged at least to some level at all times. Some "AWD" cars are much better than others off-road and can handle to abuse of driving all wheels continuously. Others cannot and should be avoided for any real off-road travel. Thanks again for a great video Ronny.
Long time viewer, first time commenter. Love the channel Ronnie. My 4th gen AWD Rav4 has a center diff lock. It disengages over 25mph. With it engaged, plus traction control turned off, it is quite capable, albeit not like a true 4x4. It's gotten us places I didn't think it could make it. As long as two wheels aren't slippin' :P Happy with this little rig until we get our 4Runner in a couple of years. What are your thoughts on AWD with locking center diff?
Not exacty sure anout the Rav4 but most AWD with locking center diff is usually a center clutch plate (its not a diff).. and they overheat pretty fast (~5 to 10 mins) and disengages the lock automatically.
What limits 4wd: The bloak behind the wheel. What limits most AWD: the fact that it’s usually not full time and is electronic. What limits Subaru: Rock Crawling and huge ruts made by bigger off-readers. Here in GA, Subaru is all you need. I realize a proper AWD System has limits, but they are much less than most people think.
Honestly all wheel drive systems are a couple of videos just in themselves. but the Subaru is actually do ridiculously well in sand. And the old L series and the Brumbies are actually true four-wheel drives. And you can buy lockers for them
I got Xtrail T31 and I don't regret to buy it. I was thinking about some Jeep or other "real off-road" but to be honest Xtrail is a brilliant car if you know how to drive it. It will take you almost everywhere you want. The only problem is when you want to start on the hill of sand and want to go up, or long muddy hill (solution - don't stop on the hill of sand or mud). In other case Xtrail will take you everywhere you want. ;) I don't regret to buy it. I love this car.
It depends a lot on the specific AWD system, but I'm not really seeing the difference between AWD and 4WD (with open differentials). If you go for a serious off road vehicle it will be built tougher and will have limited slip/locking differentials, but there's plenty of "4WD" vehicles out there now that use open differentials and are essentially the same as AWD. Also, even if the vehicle does have open differentials, they all have traction control too which will apply the brakes on the spinning wheels to provide a similar benefit as a LSD (albeit with brake wear). I mean, 4WD is clearly the better option for going off road, but there's a big difference between saying "4WD is better than AWD" and "4WD is the only option, AWD is trash". There are some pretty capable AWD vehicles out there.
The difference is that a true full time 4wd with an open centre has the ability to lock the centre differential. So the actual practical driving off road is quiet different. Also your use case forgets low range gears. This is all well and good on flat ground but if you are driving steep terrain, far more dangerous and difficult without a decent low range gearbox.
@@HardstylePete That was not my point. My point was more that what a vehicle is capable of isn't a hard line in the sand separated only by whether or not it has 4WD. Even if you have 4WD there's places you can't go unless you also have lockers, ground clearance and the right tires too. Simply having 4WD instead of AWD isn't that big of a difference, if you took a Honda CRV and replaced the center diff with a transfer case it would still be a Honda CRV and wouldn't be very good off road. Likewise if you took a Jeep Wrangler and gave it a center diff instead of a transfer case it'd still be very capable.
Drove a 2017 Touareg on road tyres (20" rims) on Fraser Island for a week with no prbs, I am sure the loads of torque and tyre pressures helped. Could see how it would get into trouble in other environments though.
I like the super select system in the Pajero Sport, I can’t seem to find a reason for the 100km/h speed limit for 4H with the open centre diff thought; isn’t it almost the same as an AWD at that point?
Approximate at 12:30 I had to smile at your "some will habe AWD or 4High and no 4Low." My 4WD-truck actually is a 51 year old AWD, yet I can't go into locking the center diff without going in low. Daimler Benz back then designed it just the other way around. I have either AWD-high or 4WD-low and nothing in between. Anyway, Ronny, you did very well explained the issue in general to the world. Exvellent done!
That Duster you've mentioned actually has an option to lock the centre differential.) I won't say it's in any way comparable to your Toyota in terms of durability and off-road capabilities, but I'd say it will get you much further than a regular 2WD vehicle. Other than that - thanks for the video, it was interesting to watch.
Not massively invested in the harder off roading stuff, but my 2021 rav4 cruiser does a good job on sand, mud, dirt and snow. It does what I need to, to get to those awesome camping spots that other cars can't get too. Ultimately, research pays off and don't go into anything blind and you'll have a good time.
ASP is not knowledgeable about anything mechanical/electrical, so how do you expect him to explaining anything mechanical or electrical correctly or even well for that matter, he's a bloody danger to people if they do what he says at times. What he's good at is being behind a camera and he should damned well stay there!
@@gibsonethirty2836 I love ASP but that video about flipping the hood scoop around was one of the silliest auto theory things I have ever seen presented with massively overstated certainty.
This is why Mitsubishi's Super Select system is so special. You have 2WD for the bitumen and fuel saving, then you have 4H (Which is basically AWD since it does not engage the center difflock) and additionally you also have 4Hlc and 4Llc which is like the traditional 4WD you find in most other 4WDs with the center difflocked sending power to the front and rear diff. They first started using this system in 1991 and Ford only recently developed a similar system with the new V6 ranger.
I'm usually careful about getting into situations with my 2002 Subaru Outback because I'm well aware it's not a 4x4 and just because it's old but the times when I have been in sketchy mud, sand, and loose gravel it has always taken it in stride. Thankfully it has an actual transmission, an automatic, but not one of those awful CVT's in the newer ones - don't want one of those.
You and "Engineering Explained" are probably the only automotive-related channels that have described torque distribution correctly with open and locked differential.
The older Toyota 4runners we have here in the US had a very neat 4wd system. It could be 2wd, AWD, or 4wd, and some even had a rear diff lock. I wish they had out that system on the Tacoma’s here.
Those mentioning the Triton aka Pajero, Shogun, Montero are merely confusing the issue as they have Super Select which is the best 4WD system currently, with the centre diff unlocked they generally send 65% to the rear axle and the remaining power to the front axle, but here is the double whammy, they have torque vectoring and can send up to 100% power to either the front OR rear axle and anything in between depending upon demands of torque and traction and constantly varies, lock the centre diff and the split is fixed at 50:50 power to each axle.
That was a very informative video. It was exactly what i needed in order to search in the right direction for a new car. Thank you. I read a lot of complains, not without a reason, about the Subaru and its awd, witch is consider as good as a 4wd. To begin with the video states “most Subaru's”, not all Subaru's, so it acknowledge the bizarre Subaru status in the awd. The Subaru has an awd, that when the cars computer recognizes the need, locks the central differential and tries to emulate the front and rear diff lock with breaks and torque. Also some models has low gearing and actually there are so many different awd Subaru's out there. The difference from cars with similar systems (haldex clutch, Electronic Locking Differential, etc), is that there is no manual locking of the central differential and by that transforming the awd to full 4wd is based to a computer decision. So the car can swift from awd to 4wd any given time without prior notice and with a lag that might be a problem. The Subaru system is great but when you are offroading you don't know how to drive the car. The best way is to act like you are driving in normal road and let the car corrects you, but that's makes the ride more tiresome and puts the cars system in an unnecessary stress. Also its easy to be stuck or worse, especial if you make a wrong decision about the torque or steering, because the car might misinterpret your actions. So Subaru has an awd system that falls to full 4wd but its not a driver decision and this creates limitations. That is why fiat Panda, for example, is sold as a 4wd and Subaru as awd. In Panda a special button locks the center differential (you can't drive at normal road), activates the front rear braking emulated differential lock and disables the ASR (anti spin), so you can drift safely in mad and snow without the car trying to correct you. So yes Subaru's system is a great awd, almost a 4wd system but far from it.
I live in the Netherlands and drive a Suzuki Vitara 2019 1400 turbo automatic All wheel Drive. Amazing little Suv. Great in snow and i have been moderate off-road and this little thing goes a lot places. Yes not a proper 4wd but it gets the job done. As a hobby i owe a 1978 Range Rover 2 door V-8 manual. An icon off-road.
Nice video and well explained. I would like to add the fact that many AWD-car manufacturers use different techniques. Subaru indeed has, within the AWD range, one of the best systems in my opinion. But the chassis from, for example the landrover, is way better for rough terrain. I did own several 4WD's including Landrover and Rangerover. They performed good. But the last 4 cars I bought were all Subaru's. I now own an Forester 2005. Why, simply for the reaseon that they are very, very reliable and perform exellent in the way I use them off road. (you cant go rockclimbing in the Netherlands. We have mud, sand and snow sometimes.) But I did have a lot of fun with the others cars too, but when it comes to reliability my personal experience is that not much cars can beat the Subaru. Two of my cars, Legacy and Forester made more than 500.000 km!! One of them is still running. So I understand the Subaru comments very well. It also makes a huge difference what tyres you have. My Subaru with Grabber AT3 tyres for example will perform way better than a Landrover with standard tyres. What I am trying to say is that going off-road is more then just having 4WD or AWD. But as been written, nice explained video and mostly correct but not for the Subaru's.
I drove a base model Subaru G4 (AWD) in Jamaica for 2 years. I visited some people in the mountains on some pretty rough roads... miraculously I was able to handle all the terrible terrain, though I did have to get the rear suspension lifted and put the biggest tires I could fit on it to give me the most clearance possible.
Hi Ronny, Really enjoy your videos, probably not going to stop watching them any time soon... But I think you've oversimplified this argument/video far too much and it's the worst video I've watched on your channel. The points you made are valid for some makes/models but not all and that's where it falls down to gross oversimplification
Well...he did say AWD vehicles vary between maker and model. I don’t think he was trying to hurt anyone’s feelings...he just stated that people think 4x4 and AWD is the same thing. I don’t think he meant to be mean...he just wanted to clarify that 4x4 is much more heavy duty. He did also give down points about the 4x4...like if you keep it in 4H when trying to corner...it will basically self destruct itself. He also mentioned that AWD was the perfect vehicle for on the highway and gravel...but not for extreme off roading. He did seem to start out kinda defending 4x4...but I think that was only to let people know that it’s far more durable than AWD when it comes to stuff like skydive driving it out of a helicopter onto a mountain 🪂 🤣 It sounds like a good military vehicle. But when I’m off duty military...put me in an NSX 😎
4:55 is the key point. Power/torque do not go the path of least resistance in an open diff. They are always 50/50, and the limit of that actual torque level is always what the wheel with least grip is. On the topic of AWD. Instead of bashing AWD in general its probably worth encouraging people to find out more about their AWD system. Some have inline viscous couplers, some have viscous couplers over a centre differential, some have multi plate hydraulically actuated clutch packs that are capable of effectively 100% lockup. Many of these systems come with limited slip units at the rear and some even at the front too. There are also some really pathetic ones... but then again there are plenty of 'proper' 4x4 systems with open diffs at each end too.
Yeah when he mentioned how the awd relies on computers for sending power that's not true in subarus case. We have a liquid mechanical case that senses it and moves the power where needed. That's why people love the subaru awd system, it's proven .
Great video Ronny. Yes this debate is as old as Toyota LandCruiser v Nissan Patrol and each has their advantage and disadvantage. I guess it all comes down to what the owner is doing with it, what they’re expecting and what tracks they’re driving. For anyone doubting ‘softroaders’, check out ‘Soft Roading The West’ on UA-cam, yankee or Canadian fella who hits some beautiful tracks and camp spots in his Forrester. Shows what can be done with a good line and some self driving confidence with ‘non 4x4’ vehicles. Sure he may not be able to point it up some of the steeper tracks that ‘true 4x4’ vehicles may go however if you know your limitations and find happiness in driving nice tracks and seeking out some beautiful camp spots, then you’re doing one better than those who aren’t venturing out at all. And that’s what it’s all about, just getting out there and enjoying this beautiful countryside. It’s only what you make of it. Keep up the good work mate 👍
"All it takes for this system to fail is one wheel" 7:52 Im pretty sure the generalised overview of AWD in your video is simply wrong, and as we are all here on youtube to find scientific facts, spending 5 mins looking up AWD videos seems to disprove you and show a bunch of Subaru's doing what you say they cant do.
Monhtor I just bought a new forester. Subaru is very weary to advertise its abilities on sand. The ‘X-Mode’ is for “dirt/snow and deep mud/deep snow”. I’ve seen people with K02s (dumb in my opinion) on their Subaru that air down and do decently on sand but could still easily get stuck. I disagree that Subies can’t be used for off-road but I will admit they are very limited. Gravel, dirt roads, wet roads and snow are it’s forte.
@@5456wasmynumber New ones are more road based but the old ones nope. My road legal Forester has more ground clearance than Ronny's rig and I'm running 33:1 low range, which is only slightly less than that of a manual 60s series cruiser. Locker's are available for the R160 subie diff too, but I've yet to get one. The less mass of a Subaru helps on sand too, compared to "real fourbies". Take your Subaru to Fraser Island and you'll have a great time
@@5456wasmynumber I have a 2013 Forester XT, the turbo motor, and aired down and in soft West Aussie beach sand it felt that it made progress more easily than the Pajero I previously owned. Subarus a far more capable off road than people who have never owned one give them credit. I do agree that the underpinnings of an SUV are no where as robust a the big 4WDrives.
I used to off road my 95 Toyota corolla which got me to so many places and I seen the most of AUS in it! Never had an problem with it! Drove in mud, sand, up hills and never got stuck.. Was the ultimate banga! Why spend huge dollars on over hyped, big, heavy expensive vehicles then add all the overpriced gear on it when all you really need is an simple FWD corolla!
“No AWD has low range” - tell that to my Subaru Forester! And I know it’s not a 4WD. Even the Subaru engineers say it’s designed to go "anywhere there is a road underneath" (snow, mud etc).
@@johan.ohgren A little bit, a bit of machining to one of the gears, and a modification to the L series shift fork and yeah, been running it for 5 years and its by far the best mod you can do. I also upgraded the centre diff from a 4kgf to a 12kgf, and added a rear lsd which was then also modified/upgraded from 4kgf to 12kgf. Besides that, 2" lift, AT tyres, shocks, HD clutch, snorkel, modified bumpers for clearance and a bash plate, short shifter, wrx seats and steering wheel, solar + deep cycle battery + fridge, android touch screen head unit + alpine amp + type r speakers. All it's missing is a few more horses under the hood :)
Worst part about the last time I took my Forester on soft sand is driving through all the big wheel holes left behind by previously bogged 4WD's. Then, because I still had 25psi, I got bogged too. But unlike the big hero 4WD's, I knew to stop when I lost momentum, drop my pressures and tracks under the front. I then drove straight out of there. I've also got a limited slip centre diff and a 50:50 front rear split. The newer ones actually have a electronic torque split front to rear. Basically, not AWD's are the same and some will fail more than others off road. The breaking action on spinning wheels that the video mentioned about I believe is actually being put on 4WD's as well instead of diff locks as part of the different electronic terrain modes. True that the drive train under a AWD will be a little on the weak side, but then they also don't have the extra torque of low range, extra vehicle weight, extra towing weight and overall extra GVM the the 4WD drive train has to deal with. Talking a vehicle that may weight 1000kg more, tow 2000kg more and be pushing low range torque through 2 wheels with grip on an uneven surface. One of the best things anyone can do is know their vehicle - learn its strengths and weaknesses.
Drivetrains on an AWD arent on the weak side. When was the last time you ever saw an r160/r180 diff break in an AWD situation? The R180 in an AWD holds 600+ hp easily. The diff in my RVR Is the same as that found in my 550whp race car, and many many higher power evos. I'm pretty sure it'll be fine off-roading. I also am not aware of any factory AWD system that doesn't have some form of limited slip coupling on the centre differential. Some stronger than others. Some suck for off-roading, some are near on locked with just enough slip to prevent binding on tight turns.
@@SouthlandFlyer I believe I may have been responding to the video. I don't know if there is a R160 or R180 in a diesel forester (probably the same as a WRX since it has the same torque), but I have personally never had any problems with the drive train. I also never have tried towing a camper up a rutted out hill with wheels bouncing off the ground and jarring the drivetrain through 2 wheels while pushing out 500Nm through a 2.2:1 low range gearbox to see if it holds up easily.
Hey man, love your videos, BUT I think you're generalizing AWD as 'Traction Control' (which is computer-controlled) which in some newer cars is sometimes called AWD, but AWD which can be purely mechanical and was for many many years before the age of computer-controlled anything. THIS IS MY UNDERSTANDING of AWD: AWD is used to describe any system that distributes power to all four wheels, but there are many different mechanical and now electronic methods of doing this, and the ones that do not use electronics are actually particularly good 'off-paved road' and for Overlanding, just not when trying to clear obstacles with your tires. Below is my understanding of how my vehicle system works and how it compares to a "True 4x4." MECHANICAL AWD System: My 2010 GMC Savana 1500 is a mechanical AWD system. Subaru and Audi also used to exclusively use this before computer-controlled systems became popular. I'm not sure how they work these days. However, on my vehicle, which has a mechanical AWD system, it uses a planetary center differential which will be set to a baseline ratio. My GMC is 40/60 front/rear. When my front right tire slips, a set of clutch-packs at that wheel's side of the front differential begins to compress, which redistributes the torque BACK to the front differential (this is basically a LSD), which then redistributes it equally back to the other four wheels via that planetary center differntial. The planetary center differential is sort of like a non-clutch LSD, in that it can variably distribute torque front to back. It can send 100% front or 100% back if the rear two wheels or front two wheels simultaneously have no traction. As the rear left wheel starts to slip in addition, the same occurs at that wheel, which is now, as a whole, prioritizing distributing torque to the two wheels WITH traction: the front left and rear right (but not fully because of the planetary differential's ratio and 'open distribution'). Those two wheels then can pull you out. This means that a mechanical AWD will never get stuck unless all four wheels spin free. This is exactly why AWD systems are so good on snow, sand, and gravel - as you mentioned. Superior in fact to a true 4x4, which will become stuck when two wheels on two different axels slip simultaneously (unless you have a LSD or lockers on each axel, in which case it becomes more and more like an AWD). In a way, a mechanical AWD is kinda like a 5-way multi-directions cultch-style LSD, ...sorta. --------- "True 4x4 - 4Hi/4Lo" System: The area where a "true 4x4" outpaces an AWD is when you are taking on obstacles, where you truly need to have a 50/50 split of power. This comes from having a locking center differential - which is what happens when you engage 4Hi. It LOCKS the system into 50/50. My GMC AWD for comparison will always try to return the torque to a balance of 40/60, which is actually removing available power from all wheels, in favor of equalized power. For my AWD, this is not always good, especially not rock crawling. That means that when the person in the "true 4x4" is trying to climb a front tire over a rock, you are actually getting 50% of your engine's power to that front wheel, GUARANTEED. That's great and will pull you up or over, where it'll leave me stuck with my AWD. Where the 4x4 has 50% available for that wheel, the AWD has only 20% of the power available to that wheel (half of the front axel's 40%) when all four wheels have traction. The only better thing would be if someone could switch it into front-wheel drive, which would provide up to 100% of the power to that front wheel. Most 4x4's can't, but some can: Sportsmobiles and some heavy-duty Overlanding vehicles have totally-controllable axels. And the final bonus is that most 4x4 vehicles on the road have a lower gear: 4Lo. This is simply dropping your entire 4-Speed, for example, into a lower gearing. So you still have your 4 gears, but now the engine revs faster, providing more power. This is bad for MPGS and great for climbing or descending steep grades. The best example I've heard for this is to think of it like a bicycle, where you have the front gears, which are 'multipliers' of the rear gears. By lowering the larger gear, you're making it easier to pedal uphill (and easier to stop, if you had a fixy). It's worth noting that some AWDs do have a lo gear option. The Sprinter 4x4 vans are actually a hybrid mechanical/computer-controlled AWD which has a lower gear on the transmission, so you can shift your AWD system into a "lower multiplier gear" allowing more power and slower speeds, just as 4x4's have. Hope that helps for anyone wanting to dig more into how AWDs work. I STILL AGREE with Ronny, that a 4x4 is better for the full range of obstacles you could face off-roading and certainly in rock crawling - I just don't think he went far enough into how an AWD actually works. I've been full-time Overlanding in North America for almost two years. I've taken this rig very very far down some serious trails. I just always call it quits when it comes to climbing over things - and that is a bummer some times. I almost got stuck on an 8" tall rock the other day! haha. Anything smaller than 8" on flat ground I can usually climb over. If I'm on a steep hill, it could be a 3" rock! If only I had a locking center diff!
Some AWD systems are only front wheel drive or rear wheel drive (mostly front wheel drive) based until traction loss is detected, then some power is sent to the other axle in varying amounts. For example the Toyota Rav4, Highlander the AWD system is front wheel drive except on initial take off from a start it provides some rear wheel power too, as soon as you are moving it'll revert back to front wheel drive. Both have an option to lock the center differential with a button on the dash up to I think 20mph....after that it reverts back to standard AWD mode. It can send power to each wheel sort of by using the vehicle's ABS, traction control, stability control systems to sense and manage the power to the wheels...it'll somewhat work in many conditions, the trouble with most AWD's is their limited ground clearance and approach and departure angles that keep them from being able to traverse many trails that people take their 4WD's on, not that the AWD system couldn't get you through, its the lack of ground clearance and approach and departure angles that keep you from following the 4WDs. Some 4WD's have both full time and part time 4WD...some are electronic, some are mechanical. Some have a center differential which allows for 4WD use all the time, some use a clutch pack, some use a viscous coupler. Some Jeeps several years ago had what was called "Selec-Trac". This system gave you 2WD, part time 4WD, full time 4WD, neutral and Low Range 4WD. This system used an open center differential providing the ability to differentiate the front and rear axles for turning on dry pavement giving you the ability to drive in all conditions in 4WD without binding. Some Jeeps had conventional part time 4WD. Some had just a full time with low range called Quadra-Trac, or Quadra-Drive. Quadra-trac units early on used a viscous coupler to vary the amount of power to the front axle depending on conditions, and speed differences between the front and rear axles. Later on they went to a clutch type system that could vary the front output torque from 0-100 percent based on traction conditions, but it was usually in rear wheel drive when traction loss didn't exist, so it took a second for the system to supply power out to the front axle. Quadra-Drive used the same transfer case as Quadra-Trac but had limited slip front and rear differentials in earlier models then later and even currently only a rear locking differential they did away with the front limited slip in 2005 when the WK Grand Cherokees came out. I think Jeep has about a dozen or probably more different 4WD systems, and some vary within each other depending on applications. Early Subaru's actually had a true 4WD system with 2WD, 4Hi, 4Lo. Then as they got newer they lost the low range, and only had 4Hi and were electrically engaged rather than a lever like the old systems. Now they're just AWD. Some I think the WRX being the only one that had/has the ability to manually adjust through electronics the amount of front and rear power while driving using a knob in the console...at least they did that a few years ago, not sure if they still have anything like that or not.
@@wildbill23c Right - a lot of the options you mentioned are the variety of "AWD" which is electronically or computer-controlled. Those may have problems such as speed-limiting or the computer just not doing what you need for a situation. The mechanical AWD I mention in my first post, which I'm almost positive many Audi and Subaru have, which is NOT electronically controlled, is similar to what I have in my 1500 GMC van, which is 100% mechanical, and will outperform a 4x4 or 4WD on sand, mud, ice, and snow, but again, will fail when trying to drive OVER something.
At my house we have a selection of ALL of the above. 1. '20 Dodge Durango GT AWD. 2. '18 Ram 2500 Crewcab 4wd 6.7L. 3. '16 Ram 1500 Quadcab 4wd 3.0L. 4. '03 Ford Explorer 4wd auto/4wd 4.0L 5. '96 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4wd 4.0L. In the Western USA, it is nice to have a selection of vehicles to use on a trip. Each of the vehicles has conditions that they are the best at. The Cummins powered 2500 is a real beast. Way too much power available. And geared to tall for slippery conditions like ice. Factory tires are garbage. I tend to buy the newer All-Weather tread compounds. Such as offered by General tire on the APT and ATX tires.
This is good but not the full story Ronny. A lighter vehicle can get away with lighter components so that criticism is BS. Also, there are "proper" and "pretend" AWD's. (most are pretend). So take a proper AWD and it will perform as well if not better on sand than a heavier "proper" 4WD out of the factory...ofcourse put a boat behind the "proper" AWD and the weight is likely to bog it. To compare, put two boats behind a proper 4WD - a fairer vehicle weight to towed weight comparison. Ofcourse compare a proper AWD with a raised/chipped/M/T's 4WD, its not apples with apples. If you want to compare such a beast, compare like with like, take Mitre's (Ignition Offroad) AWD subaru for example...raised, M/T, mods...capable of as much as prepped 4WD is and destroys ordinary 4WD's. You should do a 1:1 comparison between your rig and Mitres Subie. Now that will be a sight to behold!
So stock against stock or modified against modified ?? , carrying capacity , towing capacity plus long distance touring capability comparisons ?? , lol 😂 I’ll keep the LandCruiser thanks .
@@2UZFE Yeah, depends on your intended use - my camper is towed by the Challenger, a day drive is done down on the beach is in the Forester. I'm not saying LC's are garbage, just saying if you want to compare, you have to do it fairly. If he had said that to carry 700kg across Australia then Ronny's 70 is a great choice, but the same track with 300kg will be done as well if not better with Mitres equally modded forester.
Karl Degraa had few of them atm I own a 96’ 1.7i version. I have to say, there is not too many cars or trucks out there which can beat a niva especially with some great tires. Look out for rust and maintain it regularly, you will be enjoying it. We have some off roaders in the family fleet (pajero, hilux, vitara). I’ve pulled them out from some sticky situations with the good old niva. After you learn to use the shifters correctly, you will be unstoppable.
There're quite a few Subarus with their AWDs that happily clamber up dunes and reasonably rough trails - however, nothing helps a tough situation like a low range transfer case and proper diff locks - totally agree that hardcore off-roading needs a 4WD
the quality of content you produce is just so professional and amazing really loved it! Thanks for educating us about this stuff I am glad i found your channel lots of love.
Apologies if this has been asked, I have been told by some people that traction control should be turned off on awd. Not recommending taking one on sand, but if you come across someone who is stuck.
That’s why I like my L200. I get 2wd, AWD and 4WD 2H, 4H, 4HLC and 4LLC and you can specify a rear locker from factory. Most of the fiat fullback versions in U.K. at least had the superselect box and rear locker as standard.
More than a few misnomers and mistakes. Reminds me of ASP trying to do 12V recently; and taking a few videos down after reputable comments forced him to take them down. This video is just another reason not to give ASP or Ronny oxygen on Patreon.
Thanks mate for this splendid explaination of 4WD. Now i have better understanding of my Lux. Cheers from Malaysia! Hopefully one day I can come over for some 4x4 trip down under.
You can't lock the centre diff in all full time 4x4 systems. Range Rovers didn't have centre diff locks in a lot of model years. Lots of Disco 2s don't have locking centre diffs. I think classing things in to 4x4, AWD and full time is extremely confusing because there's a lot of overlap. Selectable, clutch based, viscous coupling, differential based. Some things with full time 4x4 don't have any way of allowing for a difference in speed between axles, they're effectivly a selectable system that can't select 2WD. My dad's Santa Fe clearly says "4WD" on the back, it genuinely is driving all four wheels and has a button for completely locking the centre clutch pack. You couldn't argue that it's an off road vehicle, I've driven it up the side of a mountain and it's rubbish compared to my Defender. You see lots of pickups with "4WD" on them when actually most of the time they're 2WD. You think they'll be good when the road conditions are tricky when in reality they're worse than most other cars on the road. Where does an L200 fit in to the scheme? It's selectable and AWD and full time. That's why I think trying to name things generally is very misleading.
@@tobimanx7026 : His academic counterpart did show that AWD do have a central diff. I was paying more attention to the guy with the whiteboard cause he was making sense with diagrams.
I own a big old Volvo xc (cross country) 70 awd. It is a perfect snow, ice machine. It has a ‘W’ button that put’s the tranny into 2nd gear to drive in order to stop the spinning witch you wheel to not spin and create ice and bog down. One of the advantage of the awd is the fuel combustion. In normal driving it is basically a front wheel drive. Thank you for the info about 4x4’s. (In my province (Canada) winter tires are mandatory dec 15 to mar 15). Sorry for my english I am a francophone.
The hero wheel example doesn't really work because ronny is not correctly explaining how diffs work, an open diff provides a 50/50 torque split and can do nothing else due to it's mechanical design. When you lift a wheel up into the air, it only takes a small torque to spin that wheel, so when you apply power from the engine that wheel spins up rapidly and the other end of the diff experiences the same torque. Add more power to the engine and the wheel spins up faster but no extra torque to the non spinning wheel. Locking the diff doesn't give a 50/50 split of torque, it ensures that both ends spin at exactly the same speed, and will be given as much of the torque as it needs to spin at that speed. In this case the wheel in the air gets basically no torque and it all goes to the wheel on the ground. see ua-cam.com/video/ujsxq9WBllU/v-deo.html for a good explanation.
If diffs are unlocked they split torque and power but allow different rotations. If locked they force different rotations but the torque can’t be equal on each axle that’s physically impossible
@@gabrielcooper7790 My interpretation was that he is talking about how much work they're doing, rather than power. The slipping wheels might each be getting 25% of the power, but they're only doing 14% of the work due to the lack of traction. Two other wheels might only be getting 25% of the power each, but they're doing 80% of the work because they actually have traction.
If 3 wheels are in the air on a fully locked vehicle the remaining wheel touching the ground will get 100% of the torque. If two wheels are touching the ground they will split 100% of the torque depending on their own particular traction situation. Same for 3 or 4. A locked vehicle will spin all 4 wheels at the same speed regardless of how much torque is going to each wheel.
mikehzz Have a Triton with super select and I use the AWD a lot for gravel roads and wet roads. It’s built to be a tourer so the rear diff lock doesn’t get that much use, but it certainly has saved my arse a few times along the way.
@@Alan.livingston I had a Mitsubishi pajero NM it had super select 4wd system and i had nothing but issue after issue i honestly can not count how many times it failed on me while off road. After 10 year's of owning it i had enough and bought a brand new Y61 GU patrol and stock it blew my old Pajero away. Mitsubishi knew of the faults with the super select 4wd system but never issued a recall on them.
@@adamjones2025 I've got an NX Pajero now and never had an issue with it. Maybe they improved it after almost 20 years? Anyway, my comment was just about the system being on the cars, not about how good it is. I've had a Patrol a while back but too bulky and used too much fuel for my liking. Good off road for sure.
Don't know where you get your information BUT according to Subaru... Viscous Center Differential (VCD) The simplest system of the bunch, but simple doesn't mean it's lacking in performance. This VCD system is used on all manual transmission models, like the Crosstrek, Impreza, and Forester. The torque is split 50/50 between the front and rear wheels and includes an open front and rear differential. If one wheel loses traction, the viscous coupling sends power to the wheels with more traction, allowing for greater grip and control.
Having a flat bottom helps you skid across. You see that a lot even with IFS 4WDs no diffs to get caught up on but when clearance is an issue it’s the other way around. And then there is driver error let’s not forget about that one
@@Ronny_Dahl True,I an no expert but believe having correct tyres,pressure and choosing right lines from an experienced driver helps a lot too.I think you just opened a hornets nest Ronny looking at the comments:)
@@Ronny_Dahl hmm.. I wouldn't put Dacia duster's photos as an example to not go off road with awd. plus Duster does have a choice between 2wd, awd and full time diff lock 50/50%, it doesn't have Low gear but 4wd is available only on manual and the first gear is so low that it does the 70% of the 4L job done. you start the car in 2nd gear in other situations. Subarus are also the ones to not be underestimated. But in general yes you are right, King of the part time or full time 4wd will defeat King of crossovers in extreme off road situations. But we dont know where future will take us, because the new Defender is none of the above, but I think it will have lots of electrical problems just like range rover
Yes in theory but doubt you can get a electric motor with enough torque. If they can make an electric motor have 2000nm and spin at 3000rpm you might have a chance.
This is the only video on the internet that is correctly telling the exact differences between a 4WD and an AWD.....THANK YOU
What's 4L? He only discussed 4H
@@pictureBigger I'm no mechanic but from my 4wding experience 4L is the same as 4H however its a different gear ratio which gives more torque, just think kinda about going up a very steep hill, Second Gear will be much easier to get up the hill than 5th gear, 4H is kinda like 5th gear made for going fast and 4L is for more torque and less rotations. P.S If anyone wants to correct me then feel free but I think even if I'm wrong I'm still on the right idea
Except he forgot about Honda Real Time 4 Wheel Drive system on the old CR-V.
@@AppalachiaDreamin please! brief us about that if you know anything
@@Raven-cf5qd you are right mate....in 4L no change occurs in the engine characteristics but in the way the power is channelled to the wheels......in 4L a separate gear is provided in the transfer case which limits the rpm being transferred to the wheels......since for the same power, torque is inversely proportional to the rpm so we get an increased torque output and low rpm at the wheels.....
Ronny, Subaru Foresters are fantastic on sand. They've had no trouble doing the Simpson and Hay River track on trips with our club. Didn't have to pull them out anywhere. The Land Rover soft roaders are truly excellent as well. They do lock the centre power transfer unit on specific terrain response programs and the LR traction control is first class. You are absolutely correct about the strength of the under body components. The good soft roaders will strip pinions and gears remarkably easy in tough situations.
Gotta get that STI drivetrain swap for the locking center diff and LSD front and rear diffs.
Even the older Brumby was fantastic in sand. Especially the powdery kind you find on fraser.
He said driving skills make the difference
@@AngryTurds Because it was a part time 4WD with a proper hi-lo transfer case. I had an RX coupe - same shape and drivetrain as the Brumby, with the exception of an LSD in the rear and dual twin throat carbs (that thing was a monster). I bought it for skifield access roads & gravel roads - and for that purpose it was excellent - almost unstoppable, but as soon as underbody clearance became an issue e.g. snow deeper than about 20cm, or rocks, or soft sand, then it was game over, and the real 4WDs would just keep on keeping on.
Subaru also has a 50/50 split in their symmetrical AWD system. You can also get a bigger centre diff viscous coupling (20kg) and rear auto lockers are available. I've even seen a Forester do the $1000 track.
Thats it!
I'm telling my wife that Ronny said "you need lockers on the 200"
my wife got excited when said we can get LSD...
slowboat 🤣🤣🤣🤣
We all think this is necessary. It’s a safety issue.
I think there is some other "adult" meaning of this line other than the technical one😅😅😅
@@slowboat6021 what's so funny about LSD...it's limited-slip differential......or is there something else😅😅😅
"So that's where LSD kicks in"
Nice👌🏼
" I dont care who you are" was the best part of the video!
i agree in some parts although I have a "Softroader" that goes almost ALL places that my "Offroader" friends venture too. 2018 Outback 2018 seems to go almost everywhere. Beach work across Fraser Island, I never had any issues in the 5 days of venturing. I am a basic learner driver.
I overland my Subaru Forester and that was an awesome choice 👊
I thought id find you in the comments. I was going to put something in the comments to defend the Subarus but looks like it's plenty covered already
Subarus and Mitsubishis typically have a limited slip type of center differential and many have factory rear LSD's. I even put an auto-locker in the front of my 95 Eagle Talon (2nd gen Eclipse basically) it will beat a 4x4 in snow dirt and grass until the sports car ground clearance becomes an issue lol
I was hoping someone commented this. A lot of the AWD CUVs are quite capable with the right tires. The Foz and X-Trail/Rogue are some I've seen people do extreme stuff with, especially Russians.
Kia Sorento's are AWD with a low lock, they take them through Moab
What you do I your Subaru many 4wd could not. He doesn’t quite understand awd systems
As a 30 year auto technician, I thought this was a very good explanation of the different systems. There are always exceptions to the full time and awd systems, but they are rare.
I've done Big Red 3 times in my Subaru XV twice from the West and once from the east. I've driven fire trails, Stockton beach, meneree loop rd etc. AWD drives are quite capable for most off road work.
The suburu VX is more a full time 4wd due to having a centre diff lock.
The moment awd has a centre diff lock, its called full time 4wd. Just no low range gearbox.
A minor correction. In a 4WD you get bind up between the front and the rear, not between R and L sides. Without F or R dif lockers R and L sides are free to spin a different rates, but the front and rear drive shats must spind the same rate. Going around a turn the front wheels (combined) travel a greater distance than the rear wheels combined. So the F driveshaft/wheels must spin faster than the rear driveshaft/wheels.
Having owned both 4WD and Subaru (AWD) I can say both have their advantages. You cant compare say a Subaru AWD with a Honda CRV or RAV 4 etc as only Subaru have the technology that leaves these cars behind. For heavy duty off road, heavy towing and water crossings a diesel 4WD is the go. A lot of 4WD comes down to 3 things.... Tyre choice, tyre pressure and driver skill. My Subaru will eat most large 4WD's on sand as it's much lighter has produces more power than a lot of its bigger friends plus it's way more fun. But all AWD's are not the same either. If you want some fun, a good all round vehicle then Subarus are great cars and IMO the best choice. But if your towing a caravan, will be negotiating steep rutty hills or deep water then go the bigger car.
Now that was a fair review David. I was a little miffed by Ronny'e selective generalisations, half baked stories and even some misrepresentation. I think with this vid, he let us (his audience) down by repeating half truths, omitting facts and making misleading statements.
@@MiniLuv-1984 I found his sand comment misleading as my little turbo out does most large 4wd cars except those who have paid huge money for modifications. One thing he didn't mention was price, a huge factor when choosing a car for anyone.
@@DavidNieuwenhoven Agreed - its horses for courses rather than better or worse.
Ahh someone who used logic!
I have a 2015 Dacia Duster diesel (a Duster is pictured at the end of the video) with a 2 inch Bilstein lift, 29.5 inch BFG K02s, a rear Torsen auto locker, an engine remap, full skid plating, winch and a snorkel. It’s a beast.
One thing that should be noted about AWDs as well is that if you're seeing a lot of slip a lot of them will eventually overheat. They're not designed to always be sending power both front and back (Subaru being the exception).
RAV4 works great as well.
Outdated info on AWD! New Subarus will fully lock the center diff when it needs to to gain traction and it uses abs to give traction left to right. Hondas actually can even transfer power left to right up to complete lock although it really doesn't work as well as the Subarus. Not trying to say it compares to a 4wd with lockers but it is much better on snow or sand because the center diff allows the front wheels to be a different speed then the rears for turning.
Good on driving beach sand maybe when the terrain is pretty much flat, but I'd love to see your Suburu keep up with a Patrol going up and around the rutted soft sand dunes of Wilbinga (WA). The lack of clearance and lack of vertical wheel travel will let you down
@@nissan_tb48 I'd love to visit WA friend. I don't experience sand rutted that bad here in the states.
Honda doesn’t work as good as Subaru? The ones in the USA have arguably the best AWD system in the world right now. Look at both these Instagram video clips and see why. By the way, not even a 4x4 with traction control will get up this obstacle, so you’re right... Ronny’s info is outdated.
instagram.com/p/BwPLMv-Hi3F/?igshid=f2jgq2xgisz1
I drive one of the original AWD's that can be made 4 WD. It is a bit unique in that it used a limited slip differential for the center diff which sent more power to the axle with more traction. It works extremely well in loose traction situations. The center diff can also be locked to turn the drive into true 4x4 if needed and has low range, which was a option for that era. Thanks for the video, George.
Let me guess, Subaru?
@@ioanbugheanu6836 1977 Jeep Cherokee Quadratrac.
AWD vs 4WD is hugely different, I've noticed that lately there has been some All Wheels driving around with decent off road traction control systems. You'd be surprised but certainly they are different systems but some can achieve similar results. Subaru's been doing a decent job, even I was surprised. I also seen a Holden Commodore AWD 2 weeks ago in a spot where I had my Jeep and I gotta tell ya I had no idea about how capable they where until I had seen it myself.
Might have been us we recall running into a Jeep 2-3 years ago in the high country, on Burgoynes Track? You told us we had no chance, yet you where behind us the whole way to Chromite Mine Tk and couldn't believe it before pulling off to setup for camp? We're still going same vehicle, today - been even tougher places!
Im an avid true 4wd owner but have driven some AWD in off-road tracks. Some AWD can have the centre diff locked 50/50. The lack of articulation and clearance are their Achilles heal. Steve
Thanks Steve. Its good to correct the record.
Ronny, This is honestly about the best down to earth explanation and example of a real 4WD/4X4 compared to a AWD. 👍
He's not really fully explaining the entirety of AWD though. Check out my longer comment about this. Mechanical AWD is not the same as 'Traction Control AWD' as Ronny discusses.
Ronny your the only one to actually explain the difference in a style anyone can understand ---- I got dobbed off trying to tell a Honda CRV owner ---- showed them this video ---- brilliant 🤗
My former Subaru Legacy was an AWD but it had a transfer with low range. It was a "weapon" climbing rocky roads. Only its 2 inches clearance penalized it :D.
Thank you! I took my battle wagon places it was never ment to go and it always pulled though. ( looks at wagon Hey you know you weren't ment to ford that river? You were supposed to get stuck cause awd isn't 4x4. Car looks back" your here and dry arnt you what's your complaint?) Lol :)
Good vid. My mate's son has been driving his old Forester on Moreton for years. He's a good driver despite his age, he gets away with it by using momentum etc but, as you said, once a wheel leaves the ground in soft sand it's all over. Driver skill is the most important factor. I've seen so many people in big 4x4s stuck in situations they shouldn't have been in because of poor choices. Keep doing what you do.
Subaru Foresters have 50/50 split, and some came out from factory with low range.
yes which makes it a full time 4wd, not a AWD.
If i remember correctly the old ones used to actually say full time 4wd on the back
With the cvt ??? I have a 2016 forester xt and it is not good when off roading
@@dominiclussier8810 a lift kit and some decent all terrains will change that dramatically.
Subarus automatic AWD system is different from their manuals. The automatics don't usually have a constant 50 50 split.
@@Sean-sn6gn the AWD system is literally the same.
I love your channel. I have owned both systems... a 2013 Subaru Forester, and a litany of 4WD's; currently a Jeep Wrangler 4door with lockers. In deep snow and mud I swear that the Subaru was better (if ground clearance was not the issue). I will say this with 100% confidence... AWD is better than an unlocked 4WD. If you don't have lockers in your 4WD then AWD is absolutely better without even a second guess. That is based upon years of off roading in many different vehicles. 4WD with lockers is the best. If you are not getting lockers then get AWD.
Ronny do not know that many if not most AWD already have built in something akin to center diff lock with certain power split between front and rear, usually between range 45-55 if not right 50-50, applying all time.
And the way the traction control works is already mimicking the function of LSD for both front and rear, to send torque to non spinning wheel while braking the one that does.
If in any case there is the need to lock the front/rear, one can just turn off the traction control system and both wheel left and right will act as if locked.
At this point, the only difference in capability mostly determined by wheel size, tyre type, ground clearance, suspension articulation, and engine size/power.
Great explication of 4wd. I would say you don’t quite understand how most awd systems work. Most of them actually activate a 50 50 split once there is a wheel slip or a torque inconsistency. My awd is not as capable as a good 4wd at all. But the awd system has never ever failed me. I have literally never got stuck because I didn’t have 4wd. As soon as I’m in a rough spot I go straight into a 50 50 split. The whole thing with one wheel loosing traction is total bs. Maybe in an awd Prius or something lol. Where I do fall short is no low range. That’s what really gets me. That 4 low in real 4wds is a major weapon
When I first got my Discovery 1 I went for a drive in the Adelaide Hills looking for dirt tracks to explore. I found one and headed down it. quickly turning to scrub I couldn't turn around. No problem, I'll just reverse up the track. Put it in reverse and started spinning a rear wheel but not going anywhere. As you know the Discovery 1 is full time 4WD BUT being new to the car I had forgotten to lock the center diff. I was essentially now a 1 wheel drive vehicle as it sent all the power to the path of least resistance with all 3 diffs open. As soon as I locked the center diff i easily crawled out and was able to reverse up the track with no problem at all. Had that have been a standars AWD vehicle I would have had to acll for help. Another situation I found myself in, I went camping with a mate who had the same Discovery but he had front and real lockers. he looked at this steep rocky climb and pointed his car right at it. I heard the buzzing of the compressor locking the diffs, his wife got out and looked away and he easily crawled up this hill with well worn AT tyres. I had a go, same vehicle but i had new mud tyres and I had NO chance getting up this rocky climb as the rocks had the axels crossed up and I just span oposite corners. Speaks for itself really doesn't it. the more lockable diffs you have the better. The slower you can attack obstacles with less damage to the track and your vehicle. But I have also heard it said with lockers you can also get yourself in more trouble, I guess that comes down to the driver knowing the vehicle.
Had a mate do the same thing and forget about the CDL in his new defender, was mostly embarrassing for him cos I'd gone straight up the hill in question in my bravo.
Locked differentials can cause the vehicle to swerve. A good example is watching a (2WD) Pre Runner climb a hill with the rear diff locked: it will swerve to one side. In a crucial scenario, like driving on a slippery ledge, you're better off going open diff unless or until you need to lock up, to avoid any swerving around.
Thanks for the video! My wife has an AWD Rav4 and I do like that she has the option to “lock” the vehicle into an AWD state, which basically makes it an open diff 4wd that you cannot go over 25mph in. I don’t think it sends as much power to the rear as a standard 4wd, but it makes it much better if stuck in a static position. Also why we take my truck when we go anywhere truly offroad!
Honestly, you don't really need locked center diff at higher speed.
The lock state locks the center diff making it the same as what 4WD high range would be in a conventional 4x4 system....but you are speed limited to 25mph in the RAV4 with that center diff lock engaged, it sends 50/50 torque front/rear when you lock it in AWD....it does work great, got to play with a 2018 RAV4 AWD for several days as a loaner while my truck was in the shop, and got lucky, we had 10 inches of snow that I got to play in. I have to say with the stock all season tires and just letting the AWD system figure things out itself, it did very well, but you could really tell a difference when you'd lock it in AWD it would spin all 4's quite easily but it would get itself moving much easier too.
RAV4 can be taken truly offroad as well.
Clearly have a different definition of “anywhere“. I do wonder if this is a mechanical lock or just an electronic system attempting to split power.
@@HardstylePete Why do we have a different definition of "Anywhere"? We use my wifes Rav4 for commuting and basic road trips (but it is nice to have AWD if needed), and we use my 4x4 truck anytime we are going "anywhere" off road, i.e. intentionally off road.
"oi we're having a night out with the boys"
"Sorry lads can't tonight I'm tired"
5:07
legend 🤙
"But that's where LSD comes in handy"
My god, you explained that better than anybody I’ve heard (even better than me ;).
I love having RWD AWD and 4WD #tritonlife
DISAGREE - hey Ronny love your work BUT I think this was an overstated vid. I am 61 years old and served in the Army for 35 years learning to drive an old series 1 LR at 21. Your comparo is innacurate in a few areas. Your comparison of your massive iron horses with every conceivable gadget on them compared to (your pics) of standard AWD bogged is totally misleading. If you put a set of AT's and a lift kit on most AWD's they will go thru sand with no dramas. The reason you see so many bogged is because the drivers are weekend wannabees. Have a look back at the Paris/Dakar rallies of the past and you will see the famous VW T3 Syncro smash the rest of the field 2 years in a row. The newer T5/6's are now the support vehicles for these rallies full to the brim of spares and tools and following (albeit slower) the competition vehicles. If you travel across Europe and North Africa these AWD's (with Haldex system) go anywhere except the harshest Rock Climbing (that is the one area you need your massive rigs I agree) - sand, mud, ice and deserts - bring it on. I did big red last year in my VW T6 fully lifted with 'Dakar' suspension and it ate it much to the disgust of the massive LC rigs who had a run up of nearly a K to get up - some didn't and drove the side track back to B/ville in disgust. I had people running over to ask me to do it again so they could get it on vid. YEP I can give you all the pics and vids of all of it. Just give me your email address. If not just Google VW Transporter in Morrocco or T5 Offroad to see all the Eu vids of what the Haldex system is now accomplishing. Great work mate love your stuff.
I have an Xc90 Volvo...agreed please read my comment thx.
Did the Subaru have BFG AT KO2s/3s or standard tires? was the Subaru lifted like your truck. Comparing peaches to Apples? Did the Subaru have the available rear lockers? hmmm...
Watched your video of your VW going up Big Red and it is indeed very impressive. But big red is easy mode in comparison to some of the big sandhills we have here in Western Australia where they have heaps of deep ruts that will cause any car without high clearance or enough wheel articulation to stop dead in its tracks. www.tiktok.com/@leandroygonia/video/6833322075877313797
Well said indeed. I think they screwed up a bit with this video. Even with full time 4wd when one wheel starts spinning,you're done.Unless you've got a centre diff lock.
A good AWD system with a good ABS/Traction Control is far more capable than got said in the videos.That and the fact that all pictures if 4wd cars were heavenly modified
against a bog standard Subaru with even a boat trailer behind it.AWD cars just need to be driven different than 4wd cars,as said by Roger Preston,the drivers are to blame in most cases.Even the best kitted out 4WD truck will fail if the driver has no clue how things work.
Fact is that overlanding doesn't mean Australia only.It very much depends were you going and in some places a very expensive fully kitted out JAP truck isn't the wise vehicle to take with youd
M Slagter guys, you’re missing the point. Forget about the vehicles depicted in this video. We are talking fundamental differences between 4WD and AWD. A great driver in a awd vehicle will go even further in a 4WD - that’s the point.
Wow! This is the CLEAREST explanation I have ever had on 4WD vs AWD. All my doubts cleared. Thank you Ronny!
4WD in a triton is fine on the road as long as you have super select it makes it much safer in the wet and gravel.
Super select is a full time 4x4 system isnt it? No Tritons here in the us, butits the same system as our Monteros
Broke Wrench super select can be 2H / 4H /4HLc / 4LLc which means 2wd-awd- 4x4H - 4x4L... and some models of the fourth generation has rear diff lockers...
My understanding of the lockers, for arguments sake let’s say Full time 4WD like a new parado or 200. When your driving everyday, power to all 4 wheels as directed by TC or what ever management system. Locking the central diff now mechanicaly dictates that 50% goes to the front and 50% to the back. Further locking front and rear axels on their diff then dictates 25% power to each wheel regardless of load. So a crossed up full locked truck would still be sending balanced power to all wheels, the big difference is there is no loss of that power because it’s mechanicaly locked
I rate my Forester highly in the sand. Just a case of airing down and using low range when needed like anyone else.
I drop my tyres to 12-16psi on sand and cruise through 90% in 2H
there should be no reason to air down or use low range if you have properly locking diffs and 4wd.
I’ve taken my 2005 Hyundai Santa 2.7 V6 all over Stockton Beach and sand hills, no worries , only minor problem was the lower ground clearance. I let my tyres town to give me a greater foot print, that’s it. As I understand it is a full time 4x4 system. Maybe I was lucky
I now have a new 2020 Santa Fe 2.2 diesel. Just drove it across deep soft sand onto the beach at Minni Waters on the NSW north coast all the way to Sandon. Across the soft sand up a hill, then the sand track into Sandon. Again ground clearance wasn’t an issue, but took it easy, chose my lines carefully. This system I believe is a part time set up. I locked it into 4 wheel drive, I didn’t even let the tyres down, not a problem, it was amazing.
Then did it all in reverse. I waited to low tide to make sure I had plenty of time to get off incase of dramas. I was very impressed with both my Hyundai’s. I would never take it anywhere too serious, they are not meant for it.
Having said that, I have had had a little bit of experience with a Suzuki Vitara I owned. These blokes are a little bit on themselves just get pissed off when they see a family sedan sitting on a sand hill next to there expensive set ups!
I will just add one thing. Some "AWD" systems do without a center differential. Wait, what? I know right. Think Honda CR-V or Toyota RAV4. These are vehicles don't drive all the wheels all the time. The CR-V and RAV4 are default front wheel drive and engage a clutch to send some power to the rear axle. A clutch costs less than a differential and these systems are designed to keep costs low. That is also why all of the driveline components are smaller. But, to preserve the drivetrain components the clutch is designed to never fully engage and always have at least some slip, in essence using clutch slip to simulate a center differential. These systems are essentially part-time AWD. Some off the newer ones are a little better, but how good it is off road can vary between make, model, trim, and even options. Be sure of what you are getting before you buy, especially in the used market.
The Opinion of Matt I have a 2004 Saturn vue with AWD and I think it’s this “part time AWD” system you’re talking about, because the rear wheels only engage when the car detects loss of traction in the front. 99 percent of the time it’s only using the front wheels. I will admit, this system has gotten me out of deep snow very well before, but I wouldn’t use it for rough off roading.
@@CadgerChristmasLightShow Yep, you are probably right.
My 25 year old FWD sedan doesn't have a lock to send equal torque to both wheels, but when it senses free-wheelng, it just actuates only that brake caliper, so then the torque has no other place to go than the other wheel :) Thanks whoever at Citroen / Bosch came up with that. Combined with the stock hydraulic suspension, it has gotten me out of some off-road binds.
To be honest I’ve had both 4wd and AWD, but never been a rock crawler, desert and mountain hunting mostly. My current rig is a V6 AWD Ford Edge with engine mods, tow package , a lift, Firestone ATs , a winch and skid plates. No issues so far. Did it cause it was paid off and my wife said I could😊
I can remember left foot braking in an old jeep that had open front and rear diffs just to apply resistance to the spinning wheel on the axel so the other size would pull you out.
Its now called brake lock differentials (Jeep's BLD as they call it) LOL....just done with electronics through the ABS and traction control systems now rather than the driver doing it themselves.
There is a ton great info here ronny, but Im going to say what I'm going to say because I'm a stickler for the nerdier points.
so when we talk about torque split (50/50 etc) it's important to remember the difference between nominal and maximum torque split. A lot of people get tripped up here. with a part time, for example, the nominal torque split is 50% to either axle but its maximum can be (more or less) 0:100 or 100:0. Where people get in trouble is when a company advertised that 50% of torque can be sent to the back axle in an on-demand system so people think "oh 50/50, like 4wd." no. It means that up to 50% can be sent to the back and no more, meaning no less than 50% will always go to the front axle, even if the back axle is commanding 75% such as going up a steep hill. with part time/locked torque potential follows tractive resistance, with on-demand systems the back axle gets what it gets and thats it.
The other thing is that there are about a billion 4wd vs awd videos and the reason they keep happening is that the terms are needlessly confusing. The SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) has addressed this in a technical paper (SAE-J1952). They recommended dropping the 4wd moniker all-together and while that sounds like sacrilege it actually makes a lot of sense as we already distinguish between part time and full time and it covers scenarios with more than 4 wheels. Their list calls ALL systems AWD but groups them like so:
Part-time nonsynchro
Part-time synchro
Full-time fixed torque
Full-time variable-torque passive
Full-time variable-torque active
On-demand synchro variable-torque passive
On-demand synchro variable-torque active
On-demand independently powered variable-torque active
Boiled down there are 3 basic types
Part time AWD, Full time AWD and On-demand AWD. on demand is what most people would call "AWD" today in that power is sent to the non-primary axle as requested mechanically or electrically and is generally disengaged when no torque is commanded. This helps classify some "AWD" systems that are much better off-road than others. i.e. a Manual transmission subarus are classified as a full time variable-torque passive, just like my 80 series is before I lock the center. Where the CVT versions are classified as On-demand synchro variable-torque active much like most crossovers. Another way to think about is that on-dmeand AWD systems are partial use AWD, meant to engage and then disengage, where full time awd is meant to be fully engaged at least to some level at all times. Some "AWD" cars are much better than others off-road and can handle to abuse of driving all wheels continuously. Others cannot and should be avoided for any real off-road travel.
Thanks again for a great video Ronny.
Long time viewer, first time commenter. Love the channel Ronnie. My 4th gen AWD Rav4 has a center diff lock. It disengages over 25mph. With it engaged, plus traction control turned off, it is quite capable, albeit not like a true 4x4. It's gotten us places I didn't think it could make it. As long as two wheels aren't slippin' :P Happy with this little rig until we get our 4Runner in a couple of years. What are your thoughts on AWD with locking center diff?
Not exacty sure anout the Rav4 but most AWD with locking center diff is usually a center clutch plate (its not a diff).. and they overheat pretty fast (~5 to 10 mins) and disengages the lock automatically.
Right. Not a true locker but an electromagnetic multi-plate clutch/coupler. Still works great. Use it a lot and gets me out when I need it.
locking centre diff by definition makes it true 4x4 same as a subaru liberty
What limits 4wd: The bloak behind the wheel. What limits most AWD: the fact that it’s usually not full time and is electronic.
What limits Subaru: Rock Crawling and huge ruts made by bigger off-readers. Here in GA, Subaru is all you need. I realize a proper AWD System has limits, but they are much less than most people think.
I own an 80 series and love it , but..... subaru forester are the exeption to AWD being no good . Subaru's are great . Not as good as my 80 tho
Honestly all wheel drive systems are a couple of videos just in themselves. but the Subaru is actually do ridiculously well in sand. And the old L series and the Brumbies are actually true four-wheel drives. And you can buy lockers for them
you can buy lockers for the Subaru. videos on youtube
9:04 Dacia Duster for the win !
It is too bad he chose this picture as an example because you can indeed lock the central differential on a Dacia Duster.
I got Xtrail T31 and I don't regret to buy it. I was thinking about some Jeep or other "real off-road" but to be honest Xtrail is a brilliant car if you know how to drive it. It will take you almost everywhere you want. The only problem is when you want to start on the hill of sand and want to go up, or long muddy hill (solution - don't stop on the hill of sand or mud). In other case Xtrail will take you everywhere you want. ;)
I don't regret to buy it. I love this car.
It depends a lot on the specific AWD system, but I'm not really seeing the difference between AWD and 4WD (with open differentials). If you go for a serious off road vehicle it will be built tougher and will have limited slip/locking differentials, but there's plenty of "4WD" vehicles out there now that use open differentials and are essentially the same as AWD. Also, even if the vehicle does have open differentials, they all have traction control too which will apply the brakes on the spinning wheels to provide a similar benefit as a LSD (albeit with brake wear).
I mean, 4WD is clearly the better option for going off road, but there's a big difference between saying "4WD is better than AWD" and "4WD is the only option, AWD is trash". There are some pretty capable AWD vehicles out there.
The difference is that a true full time 4wd with an open centre has the ability to lock the centre differential. So the actual practical driving off road is quiet different.
Also your use case forgets low range gears. This is all well and good on flat ground but if you are driving steep terrain, far more dangerous and difficult without a decent low range gearbox.
@@HardstylePete That was not my point. My point was more that what a vehicle is capable of isn't a hard line in the sand separated only by whether or not it has 4WD. Even if you have 4WD there's places you can't go unless you also have lockers, ground clearance and the right tires too. Simply having 4WD instead of AWD isn't that big of a difference, if you took a Honda CRV and replaced the center diff with a transfer case it would still be a Honda CRV and wouldn't be very good off road. Likewise if you took a Jeep Wrangler and gave it a center diff instead of a transfer case it'd still be very capable.
Drove a 2017 Touareg on road tyres (20" rims) on Fraser Island for a week with no prbs, I am sure the loads of torque and tyre pressures helped. Could see how it would get into trouble in other environments though.
4wd for actualy wheeling and AWD for camping in the sticks.
Clear as day, thanks for teaching this chick. Teacher mode, definitely helped👌
My Pajero sport has 2H, 4H, 4H locked centre and 4L locked centre, best of all the worlds!
When do you use 4L, and do you keep transmission on D or L with 4L. If you can answer as I am confused with my Pathfinder
I like the super select system in the Pajero Sport, I can’t seem to find a reason for the 100km/h speed limit for 4H with the open centre diff thought; isn’t it almost the same as an AWD at that point?
Approximate at 12:30 I had to smile at your "some will habe AWD or 4High and no 4Low."
My 4WD-truck actually is a 51 year old AWD, yet I can't go into locking the center diff without going in low. Daimler Benz back then designed it just the other way around. I have either AWD-high or 4WD-low and nothing in between.
Anyway, Ronny, you did very well explained the issue in general to the world. Exvellent done!
I love Ronny’s bush... I mean Ronny in the bush
Weirdo
Fred Floyd Gay, no judgement.
Weird flex Fred 😲
A BIG THANK YOU FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART ❤, i was really confused about the central differential lock functionality but you make it crystal clear
That Duster you've mentioned actually has an option to lock the centre differential.) I won't say it's in any way comparable to your Toyota in terms of durability and off-road capabilities, but I'd say it will get you much further than a regular 2WD vehicle.
Other than that - thanks for the video, it was interesting to watch.
I can confirm that my Subaru 4eat can lock the Center diff too 👍
Not massively invested in the harder off roading stuff, but my 2021 rav4 cruiser does a good job on sand, mud, dirt and snow. It does what I need to, to get to those awesome camping spots that other cars can't get too. Ultimately, research pays off and don't go into anything blind and you'll have a good time.
That was as clear as Andrew St. Pierre White explaining electricity. :-)
Bit harsh :)
Yep, ASP took down some of his idiot 12V videos.
@@aaaracing2285 Not really. Criticism is often due and welcomed by creators.
ASP is not knowledgeable about anything mechanical/electrical, so how do you expect him to explaining anything mechanical or electrical correctly or even well for that matter, he's a bloody danger to people if they do what he says at times. What he's good at is being behind a camera and he should damned well stay there!
@@gibsonethirty2836 I love ASP but that video about flipping the hood scoop around was one of the silliest auto theory things I have ever seen presented with massively overstated certainty.
This is why Mitsubishi's Super Select system is so special. You have 2WD for the bitumen and fuel saving, then you have 4H (Which is basically AWD since it does not engage the center difflock) and additionally you also have 4Hlc and 4Llc which is like the traditional 4WD you find in most other 4WDs with the center difflocked sending power to the front and rear diff. They first started using this system in 1991 and Ford only recently developed a similar system with the new V6 ranger.
I'm usually careful about getting into situations with my 2002 Subaru Outback because I'm well aware it's not a 4x4 and just because it's old but the times when I have been in sketchy mud, sand, and loose gravel it has always taken it in stride. Thankfully it has an actual transmission, an automatic, but not one of those awful CVT's in the newer ones - don't want one of those.
Yeah Subaru's did quite well in muck that was until they switched to those garbage CVT's, now they can't get out of their own way offroad.
ya hafta disconnect/turn off all the Nannies.
@@solarfry That's what I like about my old Subie, no nannies to worry about.
Are the newer manuals good?
You and "Engineering Explained" are probably the only automotive-related channels that have described torque distribution correctly with open and locked differential.
True 4WD all the way.
The older Toyota 4runners we have here in the US had a very neat 4wd system. It could be 2wd, AWD, or 4wd, and some even had a rear diff lock.
I wish they had out that system on the Tacoma’s here.
I've got a 95 Chevy Astro all-wheel drive with the rear locking differential and front limited slip
Those mentioning the Triton aka Pajero, Shogun, Montero are merely confusing the issue as they have Super Select which is the best 4WD system currently, with the centre diff unlocked they generally send 65% to the rear axle and the remaining power to the front axle, but here is the double whammy, they have torque vectoring and can send up to 100% power to either the front OR rear axle and anything in between depending upon demands of torque and traction and constantly varies, lock the centre diff and the split is fixed at 50:50 power to each axle.
That was a very informative video. It was exactly what i needed in order to search in the right direction for a new car. Thank you.
I read a lot of complains, not without a reason, about the Subaru and its awd, witch is consider as good as a 4wd.
To begin with the video states “most Subaru's”, not all Subaru's, so it acknowledge the bizarre Subaru status in the awd.
The Subaru has an awd, that when the cars computer recognizes the need, locks the central differential and tries to emulate the front and rear diff lock with breaks and torque. Also some models has low gearing and actually there are so many different awd Subaru's out there.
The difference from cars with similar systems (haldex clutch, Electronic Locking Differential, etc), is that there is no manual locking of the central differential and by that transforming the awd to full 4wd is based to a computer decision.
So the car can swift from awd to 4wd any given time without prior notice and with a lag that might be a problem. The Subaru system is great but when you are offroading you don't know how to drive the car. The best way is to act like you are driving in normal road and let the car corrects you, but that's makes the ride more tiresome and puts the cars system in an unnecessary stress. Also its easy to be stuck or worse, especial if you make a wrong decision about the torque or steering, because the car might misinterpret your actions.
So Subaru has an awd system that falls to full 4wd but its not a driver decision and this creates limitations.
That is why fiat Panda, for example, is sold as a 4wd and Subaru as awd. In Panda a special button locks the center differential (you can't drive at normal road), activates the front rear braking emulated differential lock and disables the ASR (anti spin), so you can drift safely in mad and snow without the car trying to correct you.
So yes Subaru's system is a great awd, almost a 4wd system but far from it.
I live in the Netherlands and drive a Suzuki Vitara 2019 1400 turbo automatic All wheel Drive. Amazing little Suv. Great in snow and i have been moderate off-road and this little thing goes a lot places. Yes not a proper 4wd but it gets the job done. As a hobby i owe a 1978 Range Rover 2 door V-8 manual. An icon off-road.
Nice video and well explained. I would like to add the fact that many AWD-car manufacturers use different techniques. Subaru indeed has, within the AWD range, one of the best systems in my opinion. But the chassis from, for example the landrover, is way better for rough terrain. I did own several 4WD's including Landrover and Rangerover. They performed good. But the last 4 cars I bought were all Subaru's. I now own an Forester 2005. Why, simply for the reaseon that they are very, very reliable and perform exellent in the way I use them off road. (you cant go rockclimbing in the Netherlands. We have mud, sand and snow sometimes.) But I did have a lot of fun with the others cars too, but when it comes to reliability my personal experience is that not much cars can beat the Subaru. Two of my cars, Legacy and Forester made more than 500.000 km!! One of them is still running. So I understand the Subaru comments very well. It also makes a huge difference what tyres you have. My Subaru with Grabber AT3 tyres for example will perform way better than a Landrover with standard tyres. What I am trying to say is that going off-road is more then just having 4WD or AWD. But as been written, nice explained video and mostly correct but not for the Subaru's.
I drove a base model Subaru G4 (AWD) in Jamaica for 2 years. I visited some people in the mountains on some pretty rough roads... miraculously I was able to handle all the terrible terrain, though I did have to get the rear suspension lifted and put the biggest tires I could fit on it to give me the most clearance possible.
Hi Ronny,
Really enjoy your videos, probably not going to stop watching them any time soon...
But I think you've oversimplified this argument/video far too much and it's the worst video I've watched on your channel.
The points you made are valid for some makes/models but not all and that's where it falls down to gross oversimplification
Probably the worst. No subject matter expert input.
Well...he did say AWD vehicles vary between maker and model. I don’t think he was trying to hurt anyone’s feelings...he just stated that people think 4x4 and AWD is the same thing. I don’t think he meant to be mean...he just wanted to clarify that 4x4 is much more heavy duty. He did also give down points about the 4x4...like if you keep it in 4H when trying to corner...it will basically self destruct itself. He also mentioned that AWD was the perfect vehicle for on the highway and gravel...but not for extreme off roading. He did seem to start out kinda defending 4x4...but I think that was only to let people know that it’s far more durable than AWD when it comes to stuff like skydive driving it out of a helicopter onto a mountain 🪂 🤣 It sounds like a good military vehicle. But when I’m off duty military...put me in an NSX 😎
4:55 is the key point. Power/torque do not go the path of least resistance in an open diff. They are always 50/50, and the limit of that actual torque level is always what the wheel with least grip is.
On the topic of AWD. Instead of bashing AWD in general its probably worth encouraging people to find out more about their AWD system. Some have inline viscous couplers, some have viscous couplers over a centre differential, some have multi plate hydraulically actuated clutch packs that are capable of effectively 100% lockup. Many of these systems come with limited slip units at the rear and some even at the front too. There are also some really pathetic ones... but then again there are plenty of 'proper' 4x4 systems with open diffs at each end too.
Subaru : Hold My Beer
Tlc 80 will drink it)
Toyota with the king of off-road Land Cruiser: hold my mechanics
So, I asume the best AWD is Subaru.
Yeah when he mentioned how the awd relies on computers for sending power that's not true in subarus case. We have a liquid mechanical case that senses it and moves the power where needed. That's why people love the subaru awd system, it's proven .
And unlike the problem of a 4wd it sends power to the wheels that HAVE traction
Great video Ronny.
Yes this debate is as old as Toyota LandCruiser v Nissan Patrol and each has their advantage and disadvantage.
I guess it all comes down to what the owner is doing with it, what they’re expecting and what tracks they’re driving.
For anyone doubting ‘softroaders’, check out ‘Soft Roading The West’ on UA-cam, yankee or Canadian fella who hits some beautiful tracks and camp spots in his Forrester.
Shows what can be done with a good line and some self driving confidence with ‘non 4x4’ vehicles. Sure he may not be able to point it up some of the steeper tracks that ‘true 4x4’ vehicles may go however if you know your limitations and find happiness in driving nice tracks and seeking out some beautiful camp spots, then you’re doing one better than those who aren’t venturing out at all.
And that’s what it’s all about, just getting out there and enjoying this beautiful countryside.
It’s only what you make of it.
Keep up the good work mate 👍
"All it takes for this system to fail is one wheel" 7:52
Im pretty sure the generalised overview of AWD in your video is simply wrong, and as we are all here on youtube to find scientific facts, spending 5 mins looking up AWD videos seems to disprove you and show a bunch of Subaru's doing what you say they cant do.
Do not most awds come with sand mode?
Monhtor I just bought a new forester. Subaru is very weary to advertise its abilities on sand. The ‘X-Mode’ is for “dirt/snow and deep mud/deep snow”. I’ve seen people with K02s (dumb in my opinion) on their Subaru that air down and do decently on sand but could still easily get stuck. I disagree that Subies can’t be used for off-road but I will admit they are very limited. Gravel, dirt roads, wet roads and snow are it’s forte.
@@5456wasmynumber New ones are more road based but the old ones nope. My road legal Forester has more ground clearance than Ronny's rig and I'm running 33:1 low range, which is only slightly less than that of a manual 60s series cruiser. Locker's are available for the R160 subie diff too, but I've yet to get one. The less mass of a Subaru helps on sand too, compared to "real fourbies". Take your Subaru to Fraser Island and you'll have a great time
@@5456wasmynumber I have a 2013 Forester XT, the turbo motor, and aired down and in soft West Aussie beach sand it felt that it made progress more easily than the Pajero I previously owned. Subarus a far more capable off road than people who have never owned one give them credit. I do agree that the underpinnings of an SUV are no where as robust a the big 4WDrives.
"a bunch of Subaru"?
I used to off road my 95 Toyota corolla which got me to so many places and I seen the most of AUS in it! Never had an problem with it! Drove in mud, sand, up hills and never got stuck.. Was the ultimate banga!
Why spend huge dollars on over hyped, big, heavy expensive vehicles then add all the overpriced gear on it when all you really need is an simple FWD corolla!
“No AWD has low range” - tell that to my Subaru Forester!
And I know it’s not a 4WD. Even the Subaru engineers say it’s designed to go "anywhere there is a road underneath" (snow, mud etc).
That's not really true low gears though, my outback has the same transfer case. But it's more like half-gears than low gears.
@@johan.ohgren I fitted L series low gears to my 2003 outback gearbox, it has proper low range now :)
@@procrastinator1842 nice! How much work was that?
@@johan.ohgren A little bit, a bit of machining to one of the gears, and a modification to the L series shift fork and yeah, been running it for 5 years and its by far the best mod you can do. I also upgraded the centre diff from a 4kgf to a 12kgf, and added a rear lsd which was then also modified/upgraded from 4kgf to 12kgf. Besides that, 2" lift, AT tyres, shocks, HD clutch, snorkel, modified bumpers for clearance and a bash plate, short shifter, wrx seats and steering wheel, solar + deep cycle battery + fridge, android touch screen head unit + alpine amp + type r speakers. All it's missing is a few more horses under the hood :)
Worst part about the last time I took my Forester on soft sand is driving through all the big wheel holes left behind by previously bogged 4WD's. Then, because I still had 25psi, I got bogged too. But unlike the big hero 4WD's, I knew to stop when I lost momentum, drop my pressures and tracks under the front. I then drove straight out of there. I've also got a limited slip centre diff and a 50:50 front rear split. The newer ones actually have a electronic torque split front to rear. Basically, not AWD's are the same and some will fail more than others off road. The breaking action on spinning wheels that the video mentioned about I believe is actually being put on 4WD's as well instead of diff locks as part of the different electronic terrain modes.
True that the drive train under a AWD will be a little on the weak side, but then they also don't have the extra torque of low range, extra vehicle weight, extra towing weight and overall extra GVM the the 4WD drive train has to deal with. Talking a vehicle that may weight 1000kg more, tow 2000kg more and be pushing low range torque through 2 wheels with grip on an uneven surface.
One of the best things anyone can do is know their vehicle - learn its strengths and weaknesses.
Drivetrains on an AWD arent on the weak side. When was the last time you ever saw an r160/r180 diff break in an AWD situation? The R180 in an AWD holds 600+ hp easily. The diff in my RVR Is the same as that found in my 550whp race car, and many many higher power evos. I'm pretty sure it'll be fine off-roading.
I also am not aware of any factory AWD system that doesn't have some form of limited slip coupling on the centre differential. Some stronger than others. Some suck for off-roading, some are near on locked with just enough slip to prevent binding on tight turns.
@@SouthlandFlyer I believe I may have been responding to the video. I don't know if there is a R160 or R180 in a diesel forester (probably the same as a WRX since it has the same torque), but I have personally never had any problems with the drive train. I also never have tried towing a camper up a rutted out hill with wheels bouncing off the ground and jarring the drivetrain through 2 wheels while pushing out 500Nm through a 2.2:1 low range gearbox to see if it holds up easily.
Hey man, love your videos, BUT I think you're generalizing AWD as 'Traction Control' (which is computer-controlled) which in some newer cars is sometimes called AWD, but AWD which can be purely mechanical and was for many many years before the age of computer-controlled anything.
THIS IS MY UNDERSTANDING of AWD:
AWD is used to describe any system that distributes power to all four wheels, but there are many different mechanical and now electronic methods of doing this, and the ones that do not use electronics are actually particularly good 'off-paved road' and for Overlanding, just not when trying to clear obstacles with your tires. Below is my understanding of how my vehicle system works and how it compares to a "True 4x4."
MECHANICAL AWD System:
My 2010 GMC Savana 1500 is a mechanical AWD system. Subaru and Audi also used to exclusively use this before computer-controlled systems became popular. I'm not sure how they work these days. However, on my vehicle, which has a mechanical AWD system, it uses a planetary center differential which will be set to a baseline ratio. My GMC is 40/60 front/rear. When my front right tire slips, a set of clutch-packs at that wheel's side of the front differential begins to compress, which redistributes the torque BACK to the front differential (this is basically a LSD), which then redistributes it equally back to the other four wheels via that planetary center differntial. The planetary center differential is sort of like a non-clutch LSD, in that it can variably distribute torque front to back. It can send 100% front or 100% back if the rear two wheels or front two wheels simultaneously have no traction.
As the rear left wheel starts to slip in addition, the same occurs at that wheel, which is now, as a whole, prioritizing distributing torque to the two wheels WITH traction: the front left and rear right (but not fully because of the planetary differential's ratio and 'open distribution'). Those two wheels then can pull you out. This means that a mechanical AWD will never get stuck unless all four wheels spin free. This is exactly why AWD systems are so good on snow, sand, and gravel - as you mentioned. Superior in fact to a true 4x4, which will become stuck when two wheels on two different axels slip simultaneously (unless you have a LSD or lockers on each axel, in which case it becomes more and more like an AWD). In a way, a mechanical AWD is kinda like a 5-way multi-directions cultch-style LSD, ...sorta.
---------
"True 4x4 - 4Hi/4Lo" System:
The area where a "true 4x4" outpaces an AWD is when you are taking on obstacles, where you truly need to have a 50/50 split of power. This comes from having a locking center differential - which is what happens when you engage 4Hi. It LOCKS the system into 50/50. My GMC AWD for comparison will always try to return the torque to a balance of 40/60, which is actually removing available power from all wheels, in favor of equalized power. For my AWD, this is not always good, especially not rock crawling.
That means that when the person in the "true 4x4" is trying to climb a front tire over a rock, you are actually getting 50% of your engine's power to that front wheel, GUARANTEED. That's great and will pull you up or over, where it'll leave me stuck with my AWD. Where the 4x4 has 50% available for that wheel, the AWD has only 20% of the power available to that wheel (half of the front axel's 40%) when all four wheels have traction. The only better thing would be if someone could switch it into front-wheel drive, which would provide up to 100% of the power to that front wheel. Most 4x4's can't, but some can: Sportsmobiles and some heavy-duty Overlanding vehicles have totally-controllable axels.
And the final bonus is that most 4x4 vehicles on the road have a lower gear: 4Lo. This is simply dropping your entire 4-Speed, for example, into a lower gearing. So you still have your 4 gears, but now the engine revs faster, providing more power. This is bad for MPGS and great for climbing or descending steep grades. The best example I've heard for this is to think of it like a bicycle, where you have the front gears, which are 'multipliers' of the rear gears. By lowering the larger gear, you're making it easier to pedal uphill (and easier to stop, if you had a fixy). It's worth noting that some AWDs do have a lo gear option. The Sprinter 4x4 vans are actually a hybrid mechanical/computer-controlled AWD which has a lower gear on the transmission, so you can shift your AWD system into a "lower multiplier gear" allowing more power and slower speeds, just as 4x4's have.
Hope that helps for anyone wanting to dig more into how AWDs work.
I STILL AGREE with Ronny, that a 4x4 is better for the full range of obstacles you could face off-roading and certainly in rock crawling - I just don't think he went far enough into how an AWD actually works. I've been full-time Overlanding in North America for almost two years. I've taken this rig very very far down some serious trails. I just always call it quits when it comes to climbing over things - and that is a bummer some times. I almost got stuck on an 8" tall rock the other day! haha. Anything smaller than 8" on flat ground I can usually climb over. If I'm on a steep hill, it could be a 3" rock! If only I had a locking center diff!
I agree with the mechanical awd vs newer electronic awd. Subarus pre electronic awd is damn good.
Some AWD systems are only front wheel drive or rear wheel drive (mostly front wheel drive) based until traction loss is detected, then some power is sent to the other axle in varying amounts. For example the Toyota Rav4, Highlander the AWD system is front wheel drive except on initial take off from a start it provides some rear wheel power too, as soon as you are moving it'll revert back to front wheel drive. Both have an option to lock the center differential with a button on the dash up to I think 20mph....after that it reverts back to standard AWD mode. It can send power to each wheel sort of by using the vehicle's ABS, traction control, stability control systems to sense and manage the power to the wheels...it'll somewhat work in many conditions, the trouble with most AWD's is their limited ground clearance and approach and departure angles that keep them from being able to traverse many trails that people take their 4WD's on, not that the AWD system couldn't get you through, its the lack of ground clearance and approach and departure angles that keep you from following the 4WDs.
Some 4WD's have both full time and part time 4WD...some are electronic, some are mechanical. Some have a center differential which allows for 4WD use all the time, some use a clutch pack, some use a viscous coupler. Some Jeeps several years ago had what was called "Selec-Trac". This system gave you 2WD, part time 4WD, full time 4WD, neutral and Low Range 4WD. This system used an open center differential providing the ability to differentiate the front and rear axles for turning on dry pavement giving you the ability to drive in all conditions in 4WD without binding. Some Jeeps had conventional part time 4WD. Some had just a full time with low range called Quadra-Trac, or Quadra-Drive. Quadra-trac units early on used a viscous coupler to vary the amount of power to the front axle depending on conditions, and speed differences between the front and rear axles. Later on they went to a clutch type system that could vary the front output torque from 0-100 percent based on traction conditions, but it was usually in rear wheel drive when traction loss didn't exist, so it took a second for the system to supply power out to the front axle. Quadra-Drive used the same transfer case as Quadra-Trac but had limited slip front and rear differentials in earlier models then later and even currently only a rear locking differential they did away with the front limited slip in 2005 when the WK Grand Cherokees came out. I think Jeep has about a dozen or probably more different 4WD systems, and some vary within each other depending on applications.
Early Subaru's actually had a true 4WD system with 2WD, 4Hi, 4Lo. Then as they got newer they lost the low range, and only had 4Hi and were electrically engaged rather than a lever like the old systems. Now they're just AWD. Some I think the WRX being the only one that had/has the ability to manually adjust through electronics the amount of front and rear power while driving using a knob in the console...at least they did that a few years ago, not sure if they still have anything like that or not.
@@wildbill23c Right - a lot of the options you mentioned are the variety of "AWD" which is electronically or computer-controlled. Those may have problems such as speed-limiting or the computer just not doing what you need for a situation. The mechanical AWD I mention in my first post, which I'm almost positive many Audi and Subaru have, which is NOT electronically controlled, is similar to what I have in my 1500 GMC van, which is 100% mechanical, and will outperform a 4x4 or 4WD on sand, mud, ice, and snow, but again, will fail when trying to drive OVER something.
Good comment mate. Someone had to say it.
People are stupid nowadays, but I doubt many confuse AWD with traction control.
At my house we have a selection of ALL of the above.
1. '20 Dodge Durango GT AWD.
2. '18 Ram 2500 Crewcab 4wd 6.7L.
3. '16 Ram 1500 Quadcab 4wd 3.0L.
4. '03 Ford Explorer 4wd auto/4wd 4.0L
5. '96 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4wd 4.0L.
In the Western USA, it is nice to have a selection of vehicles to use on a trip. Each of the vehicles has conditions that they are the best at. The Cummins powered 2500 is a real beast. Way too much power available. And geared to tall for slippery conditions like ice.
Factory tires are garbage. I tend to buy the newer All-Weather tread compounds. Such as offered by General tire on the APT and ATX tires.
This is good but not the full story Ronny. A lighter vehicle can get away with lighter components so that criticism is BS. Also, there are "proper" and "pretend" AWD's. (most are pretend). So take a proper AWD and it will perform as well if not better on sand than a heavier "proper" 4WD out of the factory...ofcourse put a boat behind the "proper" AWD and the weight is likely to bog it. To compare, put two boats behind a proper 4WD - a fairer vehicle weight to towed weight comparison. Ofcourse compare a proper AWD with a raised/chipped/M/T's 4WD, its not apples with apples. If you want to compare such a beast, compare like with like, take Mitre's (Ignition Offroad) AWD subaru for example...raised, M/T, mods...capable of as much as prepped 4WD is and destroys ordinary 4WD's. You should do a 1:1 comparison between your rig and Mitres Subie. Now that will be a sight to behold!
So stock against stock or modified against modified ?? , carrying capacity , towing capacity plus long distance touring capability comparisons ?? , lol 😂 I’ll keep the LandCruiser thanks .
@@2UZFE Yeah, depends on your intended use - my camper is towed by the Challenger, a day drive is done down on the beach is in the Forester. I'm not saying LC's are garbage, just saying if you want to compare, you have to do it fairly. If he had said that to carry 700kg across Australia then Ronny's 70 is a great choice, but the same track with 300kg will be done as well if not better with Mitres equally modded forester.
Now I finally get it. Went from a good car Honda CRV daily driver to a Toyota Tacoma that has 4H and 4L. Thank you for great explanation.
I’m thinking about buying a Lada Niva. I think it has full time 4wd.
Karl Degraa had few of them atm I own a 96’ 1.7i version. I have to say, there is not too many cars or trucks out there which can beat a niva especially with some great tires. Look out for rust and maintain it regularly, you will be enjoying it. We have some off roaders in the family fleet (pajero, hilux, vitara). I’ve pulled them out from some sticky situations with the good old niva. After you learn to use the shifters correctly, you will be unstoppable.
I loved my Lada NIva great little 4wd.
Vécsei László yes I owned one too. It was a 1.6L version. To be honest I thought it was underpowered. I sold it in 1999.
There're quite a few Subarus with their AWDs that happily clamber up dunes and reasonably rough trails - however, nothing helps a tough situation like a low range transfer case and proper diff locks - totally agree that hardcore off-roading needs a 4WD
the quality of content you produce is just so professional and amazing really loved it! Thanks for educating us about this stuff I am glad i found your channel lots of love.
Apologies if this has been asked, I have been told by some people that traction control should be turned off on awd. Not recommending taking one on sand, but if you come across someone who is stuck.
*What do you get when you cross a Mustang and an elephant?*
A convertible with a big trunk.
That’s why I like my L200. I get 2wd, AWD and 4WD
2H, 4H, 4HLC and 4LLC and you can specify a rear locker from factory. Most of the fiat fullback versions in U.K. at least had the superselect box and rear locker as standard.
More than a few misnomers and mistakes. Reminds me of ASP trying to do 12V recently; and taking a few videos down after reputable comments forced him to take them down.
This video is just another reason not to give ASP or Ronny oxygen on Patreon.
Thanks mate for this splendid explaination of 4WD. Now i have better understanding of my Lux. Cheers from Malaysia! Hopefully one day I can come over for some 4x4 trip down under.
You can't lock the centre diff in all full time 4x4 systems. Range Rovers didn't have centre diff locks in a lot of model years. Lots of Disco 2s don't have locking centre diffs.
I think classing things in to 4x4, AWD and full time is extremely confusing because there's a lot of overlap. Selectable, clutch based, viscous coupling, differential based.
Some things with full time 4x4 don't have any way of allowing for a difference in speed between axles, they're effectivly a selectable system that can't select 2WD.
My dad's Santa Fe clearly says "4WD" on the back, it genuinely is driving all four wheels and has a button for completely locking the centre clutch pack. You couldn't argue that it's an off road vehicle, I've driven it up the side of a mountain and it's rubbish compared to my Defender.
You see lots of pickups with "4WD" on them when actually most of the time they're 2WD. You think they'll be good when the road conditions are tricky when in reality they're worse than most other cars on the road.
Where does an L200 fit in to the scheme? It's selectable and AWD and full time.
That's why I think trying to name things generally is very misleading.
My 97 Forester has a low range transfer case and I know how far I can take it but the AWD is definitely safe. Thanks Professor Ron
There are AWD cars with centre differential lock.
He didn't say any different
@@tim5836 he said there is no such thing as that in awd systems or did I understand something wrong?
@@tobimanx7026 : His academic counterpart did show that AWD do have a central diff. I was paying more attention to the guy with the whiteboard cause he was making sense with diagrams.
I own a big old Volvo xc (cross country) 70 awd. It is a perfect snow, ice machine. It has a ‘W’ button that put’s the tranny into 2nd gear to drive in order to stop the spinning witch you wheel to not spin and create ice and bog down. One of the advantage of the awd is the fuel combustion. In normal driving it is basically a front wheel drive. Thank you for the info about 4x4’s. (In my province (Canada) winter tires are mandatory dec 15 to mar 15). Sorry for my english I am a francophone.
Your “Hero Wheel’ examples don’t add up to 100%, also would it still be split 50/50 (Front & Rear) or can you have 53% to one wheel....?
Correct fully locked each wheel can only get 25% of the power, that can never change unless you unlock one of the diffs.
The hero wheel example doesn't really work because ronny is not correctly explaining how diffs work, an open diff provides a 50/50 torque split and can do nothing else due to it's mechanical design. When you lift a wheel up into the air, it only takes a small torque to spin that wheel, so when you apply power from the engine that wheel spins up rapidly and the other end of the diff experiences the same torque. Add more power to the engine and the wheel spins up faster but no extra torque to the non spinning wheel.
Locking the diff doesn't give a 50/50 split of torque, it ensures that both ends spin at exactly the same speed, and will be given as much of the torque as it needs to spin at that speed. In this case the wheel in the air gets basically no torque and it all goes to the wheel on the ground.
see ua-cam.com/video/ujsxq9WBllU/v-deo.html for a good explanation.
If diffs are unlocked they split torque and power but allow different rotations.
If locked they force different rotations but the torque can’t be equal on each axle that’s physically impossible
@@gabrielcooper7790 My interpretation was that he is talking about how much work they're doing, rather than power. The slipping wheels might each be getting 25% of the power, but they're only doing 14% of the work due to the lack of traction. Two other wheels might only be getting 25% of the power each, but they're doing 80% of the work because they actually have traction.
If 3 wheels are in the air on a fully locked vehicle the remaining wheel touching the ground will get 100% of the torque. If two wheels are touching the ground they will split 100% of the torque depending on their own particular traction situation. Same for 3 or 4. A locked vehicle will spin all 4 wheels at the same speed regardless of how much torque is going to each wheel.
My pajero has both, love it. 4h, 4l, locking rear and a center locking diff.
$1000 track Tassie in a Subaru FORESTER.
Dreaming..
Huh?
Epic crazy stuff
That was a good education on 4x4 vs AWD. Thanks!
Mitsubishi super select has every system usually with a rear diff lock.
mikehzz Have a Triton with super select and I use the AWD a lot for gravel roads and wet roads. It’s built to be a tourer so the rear diff lock doesn’t get that much use, but it certainly has saved my arse a few times along the way.
@@Alan.livingston I had a Mitsubishi pajero NM it had super select 4wd system and i had nothing but issue after issue i honestly can not count how many times it failed on me while off road. After 10 year's of owning it i had enough and bought a brand new Y61 GU patrol and stock it blew my old Pajero away. Mitsubishi knew of the faults with the super select 4wd system but never issued a recall on them.
@@adamjones2025 I've got an NX Pajero now and never had an issue with it. Maybe they improved it after almost 20 years? Anyway, my comment was just about the system being on the cars, not about how good it is. I've had a Patrol a while back but too bulky and used too much fuel for my liking. Good off road for sure.
@@adamjones2025 Surprised to hear that, I have a 2006 Shogun with the super select 4wd system and its been 100% bulletproof off road and towing
@@Slash1066 Mitsubishi said it was a known issue with the super select system but yet they would not repair it. But i bought a Patrol new and love it.
Don't know where you get your information BUT according to Subaru...
Viscous Center Differential (VCD)
The simplest system of the bunch, but simple doesn't mean it's lacking in performance. This VCD system is used on all manual transmission models, like the Crosstrek, Impreza, and Forester. The torque is split 50/50 between the front and rear wheels and includes an open front and rear differential. If one wheel loses traction, the viscous coupling sends power to the wheels with more traction, allowing for greater grip and control.
Always see old gen Foresters leaving landcruisers and patrols in the dust at Wilbinga beach in WA.I own none but an observation only.
Having a flat bottom helps you skid across. You see that a lot even with IFS 4WDs no diffs to get caught up on but when clearance is an issue it’s the other way around. And then there is driver error let’s not forget about that one
@@Ronny_Dahl True,I an no expert but believe having correct tyres,pressure and choosing right lines from an experienced driver helps a lot too.I think you just opened a hornets nest Ronny looking at the comments:)
I snatched out a buried to the sills gq patrol on the beach last weekend. I was in a 2002 Outback. Lol
Samuel Green try that in a newer one with a CVT 🤣
@@Ronny_Dahl hmm.. I wouldn't put Dacia duster's photos as an example to not go off road with awd. plus Duster does have a choice between 2wd, awd and full time diff lock 50/50%, it doesn't have Low gear but 4wd is available only on manual and the first gear is so low that it does the 70% of the 4L job done. you start the car in 2nd gear in other situations. Subarus are also the ones to not be underestimated. But in general yes you are right, King of the part time or full time 4wd will defeat King of crossovers in extreme off road situations. But we dont know where future will take us, because the new Defender is none of the above, but I think it will have lots of electrical problems just like range rover
I’ve developed a greater appreciation for my Disco2 from this. I believe all my wheels are hero wheels!
Will high torque electric motors on each wheel will make for an interesting change in the world of 4WD?
E4WD
Yes in theory but doubt you can get a electric motor with enough torque. If they can make an electric motor have 2000nm and spin at 3000rpm you might have a chance.