Better to Have Never Existed? - Prof. Jordan Peterson
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- Опубліковано 18 лип 2020
- Psychology professor Jordan B. Peterson discusses the book "Better Never to Have Been: The Harm of Coming into Existence" by David Benatar, yet draws a different conclusion.
This clip is only a small excerpt of his lecture “The Psychological Significance of the Biblical Stories XIII: Jacob's Ladder“. You can watch it entirely here: • Lecture: Biblical Seri...
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Benetar posits the following question in so many words: would you endure a days worth of the worst pain imaginable for a weeks worth of bliss? Most sane, non-masochistic individuals will say no, because on a fundamentally intrinsic even biological level they know that their bodies ability to experience pain greatly exceeds its ability to experience pleasure. A few short minutes can leave you crippled in agony for life; even a year of bliss and ecstasy will be all but forgotten once the next torture arises.
Its masochistic to live thinking that no happiness and well-being can counter any type of pain. People fight and get through troubles because of what makes them happy. Every day they prove that good things outweigh the bad. I find that inspiring. Its about resilience, creativity, willpower, love etc. So many who have been through immense suffering are glad to have been born and still be alive. Its true that there are those who don't like being "forced" to live. That doesn't mean that the entire human race should go extinct.
@@Charismaniacwhilst it's untrue to say that no amount of pleasure can outweigh any given amount of pain, it is generally far better to not experience any pain to begin with, as that means no need for pleasure to counter it. Plus, whilst pain of some sort is guaranteed, pleasure is not, so there may not be any counter action in the first place
@@christophermonteith2774 Pain is alright if it can be overcome. A lot of people would rather go through it for the sake of the good stuff and happiness they feel than not go through any of that at all. And pleasure, isn't just pain relief. It's not just there to counter the pain.
@@Charismaniac Thats why you need to find meaning behind pain . Which is exactly why Christians (real Christians) are so strong mentally .They find purpose behind the suffering
@@TryMe749 Not necessarily. I feel great today doing nothing, but I'm going to go for a walk to feel even better. I could stay at home 'cause I'm fine, not suffering at all, but I want to feel even better.
I think it's possible to embrace life to the best of your ability, and to wring whatever joy you can from it while still maintaining a belief that it would have been better never to have been born. To recognize this belief doesn't necessarily mean that you've succumb to existential despair. It's possible to be joyful in life while still acknowleding that life's joys don't necessarily justify its sufferings.
@Artistic Cat can you please elaborate how it's just a mentality?
It's a consequence of something bad that has happened with them. That's what I know
Is there more existential despair than wishing or believing that you should never have existed?!?
Very well articulated.
👍👍
@@dro8031 the point is you don't need to exist
@@dro8031 If you know how life on Earth came to be on the first place
you would know how much unspecial life is
"Life is really hard" you said that yourself, then by definition not existing would be neutral ( not hard or easy), neutral is still better than hard, therefore not existing is still better than life, sorry professor but i have to disagree on your view here and agree with the book.
Hard is not the same as bad or good. Just because life is hard, does not mean it's either a good life or bad, which is why you can't compare it to neutral. A lot of people wouldn't mind a second chance at life - does it not make it worth living? People are aware of the suffering of life, and that more suffering might come in the future - not many would give up life just because suffering is a part of it.
I haven’t read the book myself but I hear about before trough a video about anti natalism. Life may preferable over death but in its own turn never having existed may be preferable over life.
@@Damood I think it makes sense to say that it would be better if nothing existed. Don’t you?
Your life can't be neutral if you don't exist
You cant experience the good things if you dont exist. Also never have the feeling of growing your own family at that. Im just saying being angry at existing is just selfish.
I'm convinced it is better never to have been
I am convinced to the contrary. It's almost always better to have been :)
@@redranger8336 I'm glad you're satisfied with your life
@@patwhite8106 I hope you would be too, one day. I will pray for that (though I am not as religious as I was, still)
@@redranger8336 You are the real problem to this world. You are the ones who sheep away with existence and fail to understand that giving birth is never in the interest of the child. People like you breed life into existence for all the selfish reasons that bear only interests of personal relevance but never ever care to think about the consent or interest of the potential child. It's selfishness and ignorance combined at display.
I am just 17 and anti-natalism has put me in a dilemma
I was thinking my suffering (from chronic joint pain) was bigger than my happines, but since I know I have hearth failure, I cant stop crying.
May he recover well from his depression, suffering, fighting his demons, shadows. I wish Mr Peterson all the best.
He poses ability to logical thinking so he will never fully recover
@@Stszelec01 yup, I'm blessed with the same f**** gift 😒 anyhow....
Norbert Horn That statement is deep and made me think, can I ask?, what exactly makes you say that?
@@aq97555 for example if you thinking about meaning of life using pure logic and ignore all feelings there's no logical reason to live
@@Stszelec01 there is a thin line between being genius and ^madness^, becoming depressed and isolated from the 'human' not realizing who/what/where majority
I’m glad to have had the experiences I’ve had, but if I believed there was a chance I’d suffer for all eternity after I die, I’d undo it all in a second. Returning to nothingness is a great solace. We can endure anything but for a moment
Even a moment can feel like an eternity. The human mind can become a hellish place to reside for what feels like millennia
@@acardinalconsideration824 I’ve pondered this myself. What kind of madness would one be driven to if they were pushed to exist forever? It really is better to have never existed at all
But you just literally have to not reject God.
@@TheBusttheboss Tell him to do his job properly next time.
@@dr.brennstab2201🤣🤣🤣🤣
That's 12 minutes of nothing. Wasn't Peterson the one who supported the Buddhist view that "existence is suffering"? Benatar says "then don't create more suffering". And how does Peterson argue against it? "Life isn't about joy (the opposite of suffering), it's about series of moral decisions which will lead to consequences." So, life is a chess game full of suffering. Great! How is that supposed to reject Benatar's views again?
No existence = no suffering Existence = suffering
How can there be a justification for existence?
Prof David benatar swept dr Jordan b. Peterson under the rug during their intellectual debate. And this is coming from somone that loves them both and has no bias
Nah, Benatar was petty and misunderstood everything Jordan said. He spoke as if he was holding a script.
A year ago, I was in a bitter state of mind, where I felt like it would have been better had I never existed. That's when I started listening to JP. He has helped me see why life is worth living. I have come so far since then. Thank you, Dr. Peterson, for helping so many of us out here 😊.
Chief Seattle ...Seek Joy in CHRIST! We can have joy & peace in the midst of troubles and pain. Whereas, happiness depends on happenings in our circumstances. Blessings😊
@@kaniza1465 yeah well I found him and Academy of Ideas at literally the lowest point of my life. Now my entire outlook on life, what I want, and what I am capable of is entirely different, although nothing changed.
@@kaniza1465 I guess it really is a double edged sword and depends on how you use it. Now I have a meaning (personal) to pursue and that is what drives me forward, while enjoying the things that come along the ride, be it good or bad.
@Carl Ruiz As for you, take a moment to reflect on your comments from a 3rd person perspective..."hurr durr life is meaningless I hate it so I will be rude to everyone else they have to hate it too, they can't have meaning!"...lol.
Yanal Chadli yOu PrObAblY dOnT suPpOrT bLm. Go back to Fortnite kid
I'm happy that Jordan peterson is still here with us.
Still with us! Are you sure? My roommate and I looked all over our place last night and couldn’t find him anywhere!
4:21
Is it sarcasm?
Because he is suffering , and trying to make that sense of suffering
so are you happy that he exists, and you exist too ...instead of no existing?
Jordans affliction is intelligence, compassion and wisdom all mixed up. I love the man.
No homo tho
I'm pretty sure his affliction is that...well mine is that I can't be funny in public apparently. But he has a garbage tier stomach apparently. Causes him horrible depression and fatigue and he has to eat only meat to be asymptomatic. Yikes.
Well said.
Chris Bacon
A lot of people have went carnivore that *don’t* have any ‘afflictions’ in that regard and have had positive results, some people claim to have done it for decades. Look into it.
This man is living proof that ignorance is bliss. Wonderful man, who appears to overthink everything. I wish him happiness and joy.
This man just completely missed the main argument of Benatar's book. His main argument was not that most humans feel more suffering than happiness, that was an aside from the main argument. It seems to me that Peterson read the title of the book and simply came to his own conclusions about the content.
It is better to never be. The pain, strife, and anguish are not worth it.
I agree with benatar. I'm a nihilist whether I like it or not. It's just what ultimately agree with. Fleeting moments of happiness we have cannot reconcile the overall suffering we experience. Ofcourse my on personal experience accounts for this. It seems overall in the end we are just here for gods amusement, which seems more or less he likes to see us crawl and squirm in our skins all because he can. His "love" doesnt come quite through the way his yeah sayers praise him to be. Ofcourse I naturally question gods motives.
Worth mentioning that Benatar is not a nihilist and neither am I. That would be to take the position that nothing matters. For Benatar and Schopenhauer and Thomas Metzinger, that's not so - suffering matters, and we can do something on this planet to limit its occurrence and spread. That means not forcing new animals into existence, whether that ends up on your plate or coming out of your uterus.
Why do you assume (a) God exists? Unless you mean it as metaphor (which I can sorta get on board for).
You need to read the Bible instead of thinking you have the right to judge God .If you did you clearly dont understand it
Where in the Bible does it says God enjoys our suffering? No where
Yes indeed the only reason for there to be any good in the world is because of God
@@wet-read and why do you assume there is no God?
@@juantheron1856
For the same reason you (very probably) don't think your best friend is a serial rapist or something. We don't just believe anything because it might be true, or even because we think it is true. You can think something is true and still not be certain it actually is. Some theists are modest like that, but they are pretty rare.
It is a curse to be born as a human. The happiest people are the ones who have never been born.
From which country you are
I think it’s nonsensical to refer to them as the happiest but “they’re” certainly the ones who suffered the least lol
@@SuuupaGirl”the people tastiest fruits are the ones that do not exist” 😂
That's stupid! You cannot experience happiness if you don't exist.
You are obvoiusly not a Jordan Peterson fan then!
What a scatterbrain this man is. No clear rebuttal to the point just endless digressions.
JP gave his opinion and that's all. I've never seen anyone build a convincing argument against Benatar's book. And the book has been out since 2006. Life is not worth the trouble. Even before reading Benatar's book I had already decided that I do not want children.
The absence of happiness cannot be not bad if the absence of suffering is "better". If nonexistent beings have no desire to exist which would result in a deprivation if they don't exist, they also don't have any desire to not exist that would lead to a satisfied state of affairs due to their nonexistence. I do think that suffering is a serious issue that should be addressed through ideas such as transhumanism and the RTD. Nevertheless, even after more than a decade of looking into arguments for AN, I don't think that universal AN can be justified. Nonexistence is not worth the celebration. But I do believe that nobody should be pressured to create beings. Additionally, toxic positivity and the idea of creating "mini-mes" should be discouraged. Hope people reading this comment have a nice day!
@@cosmiclifeist4875
The only reason we procreste is because we WANT a bunch of "mini-mes" . That's it! Therefore, people can breed or not breed , for all I care! What I don't have to tolerate are their diabetes-inducing romantic and "ethical" pretexts for what is, at its core, as selfish and egoc3ntric an act as any act can be.
@Praxis Of Logos "AN" is antinatalism and the "RTD" refers to the right to die.
It's undeniable that life has many moments of pain and absurdity. However, there are also countless experiences pervaded with joy and meaning. It is this strength of a meaningful experience that allows some monks to sit calmly whilst being on fire.
I think that people have different intuitions regarding what constitutes happiness and meaning. It does seem true to me that our actions are directed towards regaining the positive state of being satisfied. I believe that if preventing suffering can be good/better even though nobody benefits from its absence, then creating positives can also be better than not doing so, irrespective of whether or not inexistent beings can ask for them. I don't think that universal AN is a good idea. Nevertheless, I do hope that the implementation of ideas such as transhumanism and a liberal RTD can help reduce suffering significantly. Hope you have a wonderful day ahead!
I think Buddha got it right, life is generally suffering, maybe our focus, if it is in our power, is to do what we reasonably can to relieve that suffering.
As a millenial orphan... JP is the role model I never had!
Delightful Delirium. As a Boomer, JP is the role model I never had too...so at least we have that in common!
@@BC-jr3dh we’re more common than we are different
The fact we all wanna be different shows just how that much we are alike hahaha
@@dechezhaastoh "one" is quite better..than the repugnant "other", make no mistake
Pretty sure Schopenhauer and Nietzsche said this well before Benatar.
They said it, as did many others going back to various ancient Greeks (Schopenhauer has a good history of the sentiment in chapter 46 in World as Will and Representation). It's in Ecclesiastes too, but good luck finding Christians who agree with that view despite the alleged great wisdom of the author.
But nobody had developed the argument anywhere near to the degree Benatar has - his philanthropic and misanthropic division alone is an advance, and I do think his axiological asymmetry is powerful and valid.
@@igaraparana I'm a Christian anti-natalist, I've found so much peace and acceptance when I discovered the antinatalism philosophy and how there are bible verses that empathize with that idea
its hard not to be a nihilist these days....thank God for people like Mr. Peterson.
Gus Dichtel I’m so glad I’m a nihilist. It means I’m free to choose my own morals and values instead of turning to an outdated racist, homophobic, misogynistic book.
@Knowle Austin
Even if they were written for the hebrews, the laws are still immoral and downright stupid.
@@ErnestPiffel yeah ,but your morals dont mean anything. Just a distraction from your immanent death. Enjoy then
''We believes in nothings, Labowski. "
@Olli Koskiniemi Just because I don't believe that there is meaning to life doesn't mean I don't value it and the rest of the natural world.
Man, he didn't read Benatar's Book, that strawmanning was disgusting.
Straw manning is a common phrase thrown around these days to defend nonsensical ideologies. Dr. Peterson has no reason to lie about a book without reading it. One could disagree with his views, but I don't think he's lying. I personally disagree with David's focus on pleasure and I also disagree with this limited attention to things which make life meaningful like family and art. I believe it is immensely better to have been.
I've observed along my life: only people capable of autonomy and empathy "struggle with moral choices", dr Peterson 💛
It is better to have never existed indeed. But since I was spawned, might aswell explore and seek the truth of this so called reality. Even if it might be for naught.
Benatar advocates for antinatalism not suicide. We're already alive, of course we want to live, explore, seek the truth, that is what we're compelled to do as human beings but what we CAN do is to not bring more people into existence, especially without giving much thought into it.
@@denisdenak I don't advocate for suicide though. Also, there is the saying that goes something like "Those that should bear children don't and those that should not do."
You never know what is going to come out of the womb.
@@seeker11 my bad then, it's just that the conversation about antinatalism so often ends with "well if life is suffering and it's better not to exist, just go kill yourself" attitude.
P.S. I do think suicide is an option tho, it's just that is not what antinatalism stands for and people often confuse the two.
@@seeker11 Also, I'm not sure how I feel about that saying. Sure, people will reproduce and those are usually the ones that shouldn't, but the same goes for climate change for example, does it mean that we shouldn't take individual responsibility if others will continue to pollute? And also, you don't need to breed to have children, there is no rational excuse to make more when there are already millions who need parents.
@@denisdenak People do not care about other people's children. They want their own clone.
As for climate change,it is something that is inevitable since that's how you progress as a species.At least as far as we know, since the only advanced biological organism are Humans so we can't compare. Using the planet's resources to its fullest potential.Yes, there are better ways to use the resources but greed is something that is hard-wired in most people too. The final question lies on whether that greed is overcome or it will be our potential undoing.
you know i would respect peterson way more if he just said "i already have 2 childern because i am deep down egoistical like all humans are who procreate, i can give no good argument against antinatalism"
I have a question I want to politely ask. Why do anti-natalists believe the suffering in life outweighs the good?
We all struggle wih this question at some point in time. This man is so great in his discussions.
Jordan I hope you read this. I wish you a speedy and complete recovery. Your wisdom got me through a rough patch. So many thanks.
Alternatively ; he could try growing a spine , face up to Reality
and either get on with his Life or
top himself ! Anything would be better than his constant whining.
@@2msvalkyrie529 That’s quite unchristian, I say that as an aethiest by the way. Jordan has been a guide to me for many years now. You I might consider his philosophy or at least look into the Stoic school. Seneca or Marcus Aurelius to start. He doesn’t constantly whine either. Like Cassandra his predictions of doom are often ignored. His message of self empowerment is actually quite positive and uplifting. Consider embracing it.
"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."
“Why do they call you Red?”
“I don’t know. Maybe because I’m Irish.”
What would Pandora say....?
Shawshank Redemption
Get busy livin' or get busy dyin'. That's god damn right.
"And no good thing ever dies."
Sorry what? On what level is that true?
I'd love to have a conversation with him on this matter because seems to me he didn't prove his case unequivocally. In his own words he says he had a hard time justifying how he would live his life considering the physical pain he was experiencing. One can stand on stage and wax philosophical about values and meaning but when one is subjected to great pain it's like the white hot iron of reality poking you in the eyes.
Like the book he’s referring to says, humans believe life is worth living because of our positive bias. He also has a daughter so it would be hard for him to admit that it is morally wrong to produce offspring.
@@frankyu6984 Yes, publicly it would be hard to admit. So maybe he should STFU about it if he doesn't really believe it. However I trust that like me he says what he honestly believes.
Defending bringing offspring into the world just because he has a daughter will pretty much be like writing a book and then developing the argument to make it seem self evident, and that's precisely the course of action he's advising against. You can rationalize yourself into doing something that contradicts being, but that won't put you out of suffering. The direct effects of acting positively towards being probably won't end your suffering either, but at least in doing so you will find some purpose that will give this suffering some meaning.
@@danvidigal88 Well acting positively in the face of suffering can take your mind off it and can also influence the future results you're likely to get so it's definitely a good thing. Nonetheless you can beat someone down with the bludgeon of misfortune until they simply have no positive energy left. Everyone has a different positive energy reservoir but make no mistake, there is no person on the planet with such a deep well that you can't beat down into resigned depression with a long enough string of misfortune.
It’s true that there are genetic factors that determine a persons happiness through life, but the claim that misfortune will pull down everyone from any degree of happiness and confort to misery and depresión may be quite dull. Some monks arrive to peace without nothing and solitude , what more can you take from them if it’s not consciousness itself. But the fact that you are telling him to STFU because of saying something he may be doesn’t believe, but then, you start saying such claims may be quite unsettling.
You don't need to read in order to form a view; it might be just the outcome of experience. When i was 20 I went through a period of extreme deep renunciation resulting in insight into my mind, which only years later I found in Buddhist psychology, and made me aware at each moment (i.e. 15 times per second\) of the suffering in life;; it also gave me insight into the suffering of others. (I would pass people in the street and see in their faces the deep suffering they were experiencing). I also remember at that time telling someone who asked me if I wanted to have children, that I would never want to submit anyone to the inevitable suffering involved in life. So I agree with the philosopher JP quotes.
I live in a world where I am too short to be attractive, too poor to afford the nice car and excitement, this is living in hell.
Happiness can be defined in many ways, but I think maybe you have to live a life before you know what it is. I have been poor, I have had money, I have been spoiled, I have had pretty much everything taken away from me. In close to 60 years of existence, what has truly provided happiness was having the parents that I have and marrying my wife and spending my life with her.
None of it matters and you're not missing anything by never having existed in the first place.
Existentially everything is nothing but the author's idea of not bringing kids is practical we are already nearly about 8 billion and most people are struggling just for survival
That is factually incorrect. More people die of obesity than starvation, and the population will start to shrink soon enough. Technology will also progress and the fewer hans will have far higher standards of living, assuming we dont go extinct.
@@randomyoutubeuser3184 So where's the harm in going extinct? Who will experience the harm? What's the problem? Who experiences the problem of Non-existence?
My life has been nothing but suffering it seems like it's so hard to believe God loves me sometimes I don't understand it
I can relate to this, if He really exists, why on earth would He watch us in agony when He has the power to relieve even a little bit of our pain??? Makes me resent Him.
Maybe just maybe he’s a figment of your imagination
Thank you. I recently viewed your GQ UK interview. I bow to your intellect. She was uninformed... Lest we walk a path constructed of glass... she got so far, then realized she was walking on broken glass. Outmatched, unprepared, shallow, didn't do her research. You are the most intelligent, insightful man I've ever listened to.
You are an amazing person and the best channel ever! I have psychological problems since my first grade and listening to your lectures has really helped me out. I wish you great health, happiness and a long life.
I’m so tired of people trying to pathologize people who really think it is better to have never have been. Like if you think that there is something inherently wrong with you when it is absolutely logical. Some people have been dealt a shit hand and no matter how much you work to improve it it will never get any better so it would not be unreasonable to conclude that. As far as I’m concerned the majority of the human population are trapped in this situation and non of it by choice. Most people would cling to religion or delusional beliefs to keep themselves going and that’s fine but the end of everything is ultimately pointless and death. So why be? And why bring others to be? It seems that the only reason is that we have a biological drive, result of many years of evolution, to reproduce and maintain survival of our species.
exactly. It is in nature that everything just wants to reproduce without any purpose or point behind it. A virus wants to spread as much as it can like animals and all other forms of life. And we humans are also animals with the difference that we have intelligence to actually be able to see this dilemma yet most people refuse to accept this harsh truth.
☕️
I fully disagree with JP about what he thinks this view leads to. For me and obviously for Benetar. It lead to this great relief and understanding that it's not my fault. That there are far greater forces at play and that life is indeed full of suffering even if you do your best.
Most people suffer from this problem of not feeling good enough, the reason being that the "universe" simply sucks and no matter how much strength you are able to muster to fight, it still brings you down over and over again.
Jordan Peterson is working out of conclusion that universe should be benevolent and that all this suffering in the end makes sense. No Jordan it doesn't it's exactly how it seems, futile. No mental gymnastics will make it different.
I feel the same. Being mentally ill all my life
Don't be a hedonist ,be a stoic ...life will be worth living
Sanjida Rahman meh
@@hellriser8955 your only saying that cause its a women saying it, fuck off and go fix your self.
Also too the OP I dig it and love the energy
@@bobdhshshxhzvs2314 simp
@@ditsokar4168 fuck off, being a dick cause a women says something is simping.
People are so desperate about proving that life is good.. the truth is that the only reason why you are saying so is because you have no control over it.. you did not chose to come to this world.. you have no power over your destiny nor about your death. You picked this life cause you have no other choice
that might as well be true...but it's a quite negative frame of mind....it's better to live happily believing the 'delusion' that life is good than be depressed and believing in the 'reality' that life is meaningless...
It's just as fair to assume that something is better than nothing, rather than the other way around. And the people that believe life is good end up proving themselves right just as often as people who think the opposite. If you don't believe that life is a good thing, it won't be good to you. If nothing else, it's pragmatic to be an optimist in this regard.
Besides, you almost have to be an atheist to believe that life and living are fundamentally negative (well, atheist or Buddhist). I don't think atheism has any practical benefits, it certainly doesn't do a lot to inspire hope. Or to put it another way: one's assumption about whether there is a God or not is almost the same question as whether life is good or not.
@@thereader6527 that’s not even the problem! The question is if life is shity no matter how accurate and right the universe’s algorithm is .. is it right to bring another human being to this world?
@@redhat4363 That's a quite a complex problem there and one might say it's wrong to bring someone else into this cylce of meaninglessness(as you'd say)..But I would still argue that our life is essentially what we believe in and while some consider life to be meaningless(and they are right in their perception) there are others who see life as an gift(and yes,they too are right)..so the probabilty that the human(i.e,child) you bring into this will consider his life as meaningless and depressing is the same as the probability that he will enjoy it whole heartedly...So i would argue...why not give that human the chance to decide whether life is meaningless or Meaningful himself..
@@redhat4363 In short...my opinion is that we should atleast give that human a chance to live life and decide about it through his own experience...but it's just my own personal opinion.
A great man.
Why?
@@ErnestPiffel you should watch his videos...
One of the best!!!!!
There's a good conversation on the "Unbelievable" site with the author of the book he's talking about. Recommend it.
don't forget his debate with Peterson himself, and appearance on Sam Harris's podcast :)
I'd like to nominate Peterson as the person who most likes the sound of his own voice in the 21st century.
“People who act abysmally and some, under the worst threats imaginable, never sacrifice their character.” If all humans never sacrificed their character under the worst threats even unimaginable then I think humanity would be a utopia.
Oh spare us - accusing Benatar of some intellectual and ethical impropriety at 0:54 and then making abundantly clear that JP's resistance to the idea is emotional ('profound anti-human ethos' at 10:20). It frightens him because he's had the same thoughts himself, it led him down the nihilistic rabbit hole, and much of his life is about struggling out of it and trying to produce arguments to justify that way of being.
Peterson acknowledges life is a tremendous struggle, and note in the most recent update he said that his suffering had been so severe during his benzodiazepine separation that often times he wished not to exist, yet thinks it's better that that struggle takes place (in the human realm at least, he doesn't seem to care a jot about non-human animal suffering as he delights in his beef feasts day by day, and isn't it curious that this is so well shared by Christian apologists; they don't give a damn about animal suffering either) than not take place at all. I think that's a malignant view. If creating new life in the form of children is in fact a 'very serious harm' as Benatar puts it, don't you think we ought to very thoroughly consider if he's right before we go and do it? And how especially true is that in the case of Christians, especially Catholics with their fixation on life-at-all-costs, and Muslims in particular who think there's a very substantial chance that their offspring is going to face billions of years after billions of years, in unending but unimaginably terrible torment! If you really believed that, aren't you an absolute monster for condemning your child to the possibility of that fate? When by not having them, or even by aborting them, no such risk exists, since I don't think the religionists are arguing for condemnation of the unborn. Face up to the fact that if you're going to have children, they're going to face huge obstacles, their achievements are going to turn to dust, as will they and every other being they bring into existence, and they're inevitably going to do harm to others and especially to conscious non-human animals which they're likely to eat by the thousand, they're going to get sick, and suffer, and die. And what for, when all sentient life is going to come to an end anyway? Why force upon them 70+ years of existence when there's no need for it? Ah, but there *is* a perceived need for it in the parents themselves, which evolution has put into them, and comes in the form of desire for your own offspring, desire to engage in sexual activity, the urgings of the prospective grandparents, who themselves want to enrich their lives by manufacturing this new being, in EVERYTHING. As Schopenhauer puts it: 'If children were brought into the world by an act of pure reason alone, would the human race continue to exist? Would not a man rather have so much sympathy with the coming generation as to spare it the burden of existence? Or at any rate not take it upon himself to impose that burden upon it in cold blood'. Right on.
The poster of this video hasn't linked to the debate Peterson actually had with David Benatar, which I presume occurred shortly after this talk was given. Go check it out. I think Peterson comes out embarrassingly poorly and his arguments, if they can even be called that, are specious in the extreme. Peterson has what Thomas Metzinger calls 'existence bias' in the extreme. He wants the horror show of life on this planet to go on just because because because. When Benatar in that debate says it will be good when sentient life in the universe comes to an end, Peterson says that would be 'catastrophic', if I recall. Benatar answers 'why?' and I'm sad that he didn't answer, because there is no answer. It's going to happen, he and most people want it to be delayed as long as possible. But why is that better than it occurring in the next moment, which I think would be for the best, and why on earth should new people have to be MADE to participate?!
Great video!
Get busy living
Or
Get busy dying
Shawshank Redemption 😍
V B
A O
G O
I B
N
A
Give us a humane way then please
Getting busy living is just to distract you from the fact that you're actually dying
I was so relieved, when i saw the video with his daughter interviewing him.
Good to know, hes better.
Thanks to this channel for collecting such sharp thoughts.
All the best wishes!
I live for the small things
I have no big plans or ideas or ambitions
I'm not inclined to try and change or save the world
I like soft sheets on my feet
Warm baths on my skin
Hot food in my belly
Big hugs with my children
I live to watch them grow and laugh
I live for music, for movies
For cups of tea
Here's to the writers, the musicians, the engineers , the teachers, the mother's, the grandfather's and to everyone who loves to create, to build and to teach their ways and wisdom
I live for watching the wisps of steam rise off my coffee
I live for the excitement as my meal is almost cooked and my belly is rumbling
I live to feel the wind in my hair as I ride my bike downhill
I live for my small victories.
When I have waged war against the washing up and won
I live to hear the waves of the sea whilst I sit on the beach and try to empty my mind
I savour the delicious calm deep inside me like honey running over a wound as I sit and listen
My existence may be meaningless in the grand scheme of things, but what does that matter when I only live for the small things anyway.
Beautiful
Thank you
I loved this! ❤
A good life indeed. But actually quite rare, overall
What a genius he is…. I’m reluctant to share the inspiration I get from this video though, it gives me such a boost and I agree with his viewpoints and find them very interesting, but I get the feeling the more emotional people I know won’t agree haha
It is easy for someone who has not suffered much to be content with their existence. But for those of us who have suffered to an extreme every day of their existence, life is a torturous jail sentence. Suffering is pointless. Living a life of suffering is meaningless. It accomplishes nothing. Life is not worth living.
✝️ The gospel of your salvation 🩸
Ephesians 1 kJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
1 Corinthians 15 kJV
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
✝️🩸
Romans 3 kJV
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
♥️know ♥️
1 John 5 kJV
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
@@AlexanderBrown77If I didn't exist, I wouldn't need salvation
@@orangejuicesimpson7233 🎯
Growing soft on happiness and a comfortable life is easier than becoming thick-skinned while being alarmed at suffering. That's why the suffering out weights the "good"
Great thanks for link to complete talk
That thumbnail shot is BRILLIANT 🤣🤣
Problem is all the best people are not replicating. Problem is?
Boycot of reproduction..
Brawndo has electrolytes
True. I have 3 brothers and 3 sisters, with various degrees of evil.
Smart people use condoms, dummies don't
The smartest people suffer the most in a noisily hedonistic society. Why would they want to bring others into it?
A part of me truly wishes I never existed
Life's joys just vanish more and more with age. Past 40 you're invisible as a guy- even with many many experiences and relationships i've had all my life its suddenly now over. I have to WORK HARD to find some type of intriguing socialization let alone a relationship with narcissists galore? no thanks. The world has changed too much as well. Or maybe im just too old.
Chronic pain since i was 16 years old. I am 22 now.😔😔😔😔😔😔😔😔
Jordan is a conductor and a symphony all in oneself, he unravels like music to deliver a point.
Well said!
Too bad he's tone deaf .....or permanently in the wrong key .
@@2msvalkyrie529 that’s because you’re a leftist
This was brilliant from JP.
Everyone's happiness differs, and your upbringing, social forces, environment and genetic predisposition coupled with life's experiences and choices you make will determine your state of being; happy, sad or indifferent. I agree with his sentiment to a certian extent. Despite the horrors of humanity we see recorded in the annals of history, we still see good will manifested in the world around us. From acts of charity, sacrafices, nobility and other acts of alturism we see today.
Nobody is saying that there isn't good in the world, it's more that life isn't necessary.
Humanitarianism doesn't solve the misery of existance. Its just a palliative
This is why I refuse to reproduce, the gene pool doesn't need me to piss my depressed DNA in it.
opening statements- that is why i never bred
Good time to be a single, childless minimalist man who lives in a paid off Honda Pilot. I think I've avoided the belly of the whale.
Seems like you're right in the middle of the whale's stomach instead
That's a vulnerable position, what if some loser steals your car/home or it gets damaged in an accident?
@@giampaolomannucci8281 I don't have irreplaceable items in my car. I literally have clothes, shoes, important papers, and a few miscellaneous trinkets. I'll just use some of the money I've amassed for a hotel, and gradually rebuild from there.
@@faw3162 I see, I respect that, you truly are a minimalist man and can make it work.
how can you keep a job this way? I mean, how can you maintain health and be clean/presentable for a job environment?
@@giampaolomannucci8281 Well you know, when you have a strong desire to wash your ass, it seems to always get washed. When you need an income, you figure out a way to make it work. I'll tell you one thing, I'll never be bitched around by a landlord.
@@faw3162 that's beautiful, thank you for sharing your point of view man.
I can see that being minimalist gave you a peculiar clarity of mind.
you're simple, yet deep.
Revenge against god? Well first prove god?
If you don’t exist theirs not a chance for you to go to hell or sin etc
There just plain wouldn’t be any suffering if you never existed. It doesn’t even matter if hell is a real place.
I wish I was't born, life and humans are so awfull.
'Never to have been'
whatever (Coping Mechanism)
we've establish,whether it be, a job,a spouse,kids,entertaintment,
sports,addictions ect ect
still does not negate,from the facr,that life is all about senseless pain and suffering.
and as far,as anyone of us knows
we return to a state,of complete non-existence,total lack of consciousness, when we eventually die
I personally wish, to have never
have been
First the premise, then the argument for the premise, then your argument for & against & endly your conclusion. Jordan started with the premise and said his conclusion before the other's argument & his for & against
Do you... did you actually try and correct Jordan Peterson??? The man who probably knows more about philosophical values by the time he was 30 than you could ever hope to attain in you life? Did you write out that comment, read for errors, and still think you’re doing Jordan Peterson a favor? Pick up a book of your own instead of giving useless criticism
“How I wish that I’d been unborn - wish I was unliving here”
Eurythmics, “Sexcrime” “Nineteen Eightyfour” (1984)
I think it is with good reason to think that there periods in our present life in present time...which we with every right could wish that we would have been able to trade for times during the 30 year war - when we didn’t exist.
Peterson is too emotional to accept such truths. He gets torn to pieces in his discussion with Benatar
‘You shouldn’t look at life by it’s value in happiness you should measure it by the continuous moral choices you make, particularly about the future. ‘
He was so close to getting it here
I am at my last straw with how this world operates. I wish I was never placed here, in this big lie we call life. We never stood a chance here because everything is a lie.
You're back!
I genuinely feel hatred and resentment at my parents for having birthed me.
Pain and suffering are what gives value to pleasure and happiness. Both are complementary, extremes of the same scale. As Nietzsche said: "To live is to suffer, to survive is to find some meaning in the suffering." You become a survivor when you find sense or justification in suffering. Growth requires positive and negative reinforcement. Pain is part of life. Is the equal opposite reaction to joy.
Non existent is actually a freedom from the illusion of pain and pleasure.
sounds like a good coping mechanism
Life is not suffering, it’s the antithesis of suffering. Suffering as concept is morally abject.
Mind you, pain is not the same thing as suffering. There is an important distinction that not many seem to be able or willing to make.
Listen to Peterson debate Benatar, it's on UA-cam.
It’s not worth continuing to exist in a world that doesn’t know life. It’s like being locked in a coffin and forcibly being kept alive.
Peterson says you shouldn't write a book after you've come to a conclusion and make a written account of your conclusion. I disagree. Maybe your conclusion is based on much time spent reading, contemplating and realization.
I think he worded that poorly, I think he meant that the best books in his opinion are written without a planned conclusion.
Yes, and ultimately from experiencing. I think academics sometimes have the tendency to see legitimacy only in referencing formally recorded or approved research and writings, without acknowledging their very basis in direct human experience. Peterson references Dostoevsky. Yet writers like Dostoevsky write with the conclusion in mind and write from experience, observation and imagination and manage to describe something about human beings that resonates as truthful with many readers.
You understood that wrong. He said that the right way to write a book or do any research be it scientific or Philosophical is first you should state the problem/question and then you go through the process of finding facts and evidence about the problem and then based on those facts you arrive at the conclusion by giving your reasoning.
You don't assume the answer to your problem first and then go about giving reasons why your answer is right.
Like in a criminal investigation, you don't assume who's the culprit first and then find evidence against him or her. You first find all the evidences and then based on those you arrive at a conclusion. If you assume the culprit first then you will only focus on the evidences that supports your decision and may ignore all the other ones.
I pretty like Peterson and I very agree with many of his thoughts, but this particular monologue seems like a sophistry and a total digression to me. Not even once he gives a counter-argument to Benatar’s philosophy here. The only substantive counter-argument, in my opinion, would be something like this: if there’s no god, or reincarnation, yada-yada, and you could live a life only once, would you really miss something this unique and versatile? A joy of childhood, love, friendship, enjoying a hobby, art, creativity, overcoming challenges, discovering the beauty of the universe - the list goes on. Life is a lottery in many terms, but even a averaged life can give you a great experience if you’re strong enough. I don’t know… Peterson seems to believe in some higher power and therefore can’t make a very logical scientific point. Ironically an atheistic point of view gives life a greater meaning in some sense.
I haven't really found any of the AN arguments to be compelling. And I agree with Dr. Peterson that David seems to have some personal biases against life. Read his interview in the New Yorker and his books a few years ago. Both seem to downplay good things and exaggerate suffering. For me, life will always have great value.
Just like in his debate with Benatar, he just can't, that's it. Because the foundation of this philosophy comes from the perspective of pessimism that there is more suffering than pleasure and Jordan agrees with it. But somehow he refuses to entertain the idea that it's good not to bring NEW life into existence on some religious notion always derailing the conversation into some extreme nihilism and then trying to refute that instead of the antinatalism itself.
@@denisdenak Thank you. This is exactly what Jordan does in a lot of discussions, the one that always comes to mind for me is his debate against Matt Dillahunty.
@@denisdenak If one does not subscribe to the sort of negative utilitarian framework that many AN arguments do, one can still be pessimistic whilst not rejecting life. Camus comes to mind.
The fundamental realisation is that suffering is strong, but the transcendent meaning that one can achieve can justify life. However, my reasons for rejecting AN are more utilitarian in nature, so I don't necessarily subscribe to his views.
Benatar is a true genius, not like this charlatan called peterson…
Hey,
There is an author Jordan says read like 2500 papers before the said author wrote a book. Who is this author? And what is the name of the book?
And Jordan also says that it took him 6 months to understand the book.
I don't think we're here to be happy though being happy is great.
good spoken
Life is not always about happiness
Yep. And neither is it always about suffering.
@@redranger8336
But The Key Bottom Line Factor
Is That The Cons of "Life"
Are Going To ALWAYS
outweigh The Pros of Life, So
Non-Existence >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Existence
So good.
Best one yet
Nice video! Your talking is good content! I like your life options! Life is suffering!
My like 2k!
Subbed to you!
So let me get this right, an atheist (because an existentialist who's contemplating nihilism definitely is one) with the thought that never is better to have been, will rage against God at the end?!!! How is that possible?
4:30 Here jordan peterson starts out with the presupposition that evil is a real thing and not just an idea we came up with. In my opinion the only logical reason why we don't judge animals with the same moral responsibility is because animals have less reasoning skills with wich to make their choises. That does not mean we have never judged animals as harshly as humans. In 1916 Tennessee an elephant killed the elephant keeper. A vengeful crowd of people chanted kill the elephant. Later the elphant was hanged by the neck! The bible even talks about stoning a Bull who killed someone to death. And in the midle ages we actually put animals on trial.😅
Sir I know you wont see this but I recently saw you talking about your fight with benzos. Well, I first IV used heroin at the age of 14 fast forward 13 years and I finally got clean from that only to be prescribed Subutex(buprenorphine) and Alprazolam. What no one told me was this should have been a short term thing. First my fear was this heroin like withdrawal from the subutex but now that I've been on 12 mg of that and now 4mg of xanax a day for 3 years my fear is now the benzos. The one time I ran out of my xanax a little early due to giving a few to my aunt who is fighting cancer. I had a seizure out of nowhere. Didnt feel any withdrawal symptoms befor it happened. I dont know what to do and Dr.'s I've talked to have all said it may be too dangerous now to take me off of the xanax. It all saved my life but now I feel it will be what kills me. Any advice?
crap no one replied to you, you off that shit yet bud?
@@rossaustin7147 I appreciate it man. Off of the Subutex (painful but you just have to stick with it) but the Xanax has been a much harder and longer process. Down from 4 mgs a day to 1.5 mgs. Just have to take it one day at a time. Goodluck to all out there going through this, stay strong.
@@parkerb9010 awwww fucking awesome man i was not sure if this was just a throw away account and that youd never reply, absolutely brilliant dude just keep pushing, baby steps and youl get there! 💜
If we're born into sin and need to "find Jesus or whomever" what's the point of being born then? Thus we're cruel if we bring another being into this world.
Just my twopence.
Read the Urantia Book
@@DR-qi3pv Read whatever you want, do whatever you like. Just stop bringing more life into the world. Don't become the medium that breeds suffering and misery. That's all.
Thank you 🙏😜
I think that today we put a lot of emphasis on happiness. I don’t think it’s been like that since the beginning of time. Today, people are asked if they are happy and if they made their choices on that basis.
I think that most religion do actually address the suffering and suggest dealing with it as something you have to do to ¨win access to heaven. ¨ Most religion try to offer a solution to deal with suffering.
Not everything requires to be happy about it. Let suppose you have to fire someone. You don’t to be happy about it. If you want or feel you need to be happy in everything you do: that will make you suffer.
Also, a lot of suffering make people do things that improves the life of thousands. There are a lot of discovery that results in a frustration or illness of someone that choose to find a solution. If it that solution or discovery solve a problem or help having a better life, the feeling might be pride but not necessarily happiness.
If you terminate a relationship in which you were suffering, you might feel better but not necessarily happier. If you have a drinking, gambling, financial problem, working on solving it might be good for you, but it doesn’t mean you will be immediately happier.
There is too much emphasis on happiness in my view. When someone helps another person, there might be a great satisfaction coming out of it, but not necessarily happiness.
I am not sure that when the population were being concerned with survival, getting enough food to live that happiness was so central. I read somewhere that 200 years ago, people were spending up to 60% of their time to make sure they had enough food. I am not sure how much time they were asking themselves ¨Is this making me happy? ¨
It might be possible that we have developed this luxury of looking for happiness everywhere because we have so much time to spare. But the nature of humans has not change that much that fast. My belief is that we can have a great life without looking at it through the lenses of happiness all the time. That’s what a stoic person would probably say, and Confucius quoted ¨To be truly happy and contended, you must let go of what it means to be happy or content. ¨
Gilles
Wow dude that was like finishing reading 100 books in just under 3 minutes.
I Read your comment fully and many things sparked at certain areas in my brain. Thanks buddy for such a thoughtful comment.
@@JohnchapterVersesand Well thanks for the compliment. I had to let it out. It is great when someone tells you that it give them something :) Thanks again.
If meaninglessness of life is scaring you then the problem is fear and not the meaninglessness of life and this JP is full of prejudices
Some people are too smart for their own good. Hope all is well Mr. Peterson
Well spoken well educated well read has the wisdom & the same understanding of what reality is as a rock.
Yeah, even a rock is clever enough to realise that it wouldn't be "better" for it to stop existing.
I believe human beings are here to experience and then work on learning to understand how to respond to suffering, so we can kind of evolve beyond it. By that, I mean we become emotionally stronger than suffering and we see the benefit of it as something that challenges us to grow and evolve.
To what end exactly
That sounds like a great coping mechanism.
So water and Heat are here to create Steam ?
You'll never learn to evolve "beyond suffering". You'll just exist until physical or mental suffering becomes so huge that you cease to exist. Suffering always wins in the end.
Better to have never been.
@@sariahlace5944 EXACTLY! Grow and evolve for WHAT??? So you will be "all grown up and strong mentally, emotionally, and spiritually" before you DIE????? How ABSURD of a comment can you get?
We wouldn't want to get rid of consciousness?? That's what escapism and suicide are... Lots of good points though.
Yeah he really didn’t offer helpful advice here. The entire question is, what should an individual who feels like life isn’t worth living do? Surely a person who feels that life isn’t worth living would not want to have a child. What can someone like that do to “hop the fence” and begin to appreciate life? If death were guaranteed to be painless and we had evidence that there is no afterlife, how many people would choose death? Threats of eternal torture or even unimaginable amounts of momentary suffering are terrible reasons to continue living.