Thank you for very nice comparison !! Very insightful for the information of the coarse burrs. But I think for the blind tested. If you could pull for double cups of each burrs. Then try to match them first. After that guess what the couple sets is what grinder. The result of the test would be more accurate than just guess what cup is what. Anyway, hope to see a comparison between P100 HU / Max SLM / MAX SSW. I also have a MAX SLM and really want to try SSW burrs. The 2022 revision also looks fantastic even its just a very subtle change but it makes them more beautiful aesthetic grinder.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for comparing Max LM with Max CR! You just saved me a lot of money. I figure between MC4 ans Max LM I have things pretty well covered!
I always seem to agree with your assessment of these burrs (even though I haven't really tried the 98mm versions!). If its anything like the LM burrs for the 75mm Flat the Shuriken LMs are 'supposed' to be espresso oriented but I did find they do REALLY well for filter / coarser brew coffee as well. Also very forgiving for espresso when I first used it, I was putting some older / bad coffee through it and decided to try THAT coffee and It even kinda makes not so great coffee taste alright it seems! I actually have been enjoying the Weber HG-2 lately for espresso, it seems even more forgiving (conical burrs generally are more forgiving) but like even when the shots are channeling or timing is pretty off, it's still turning out pretty nice and smooth! The shurikens are enjoyable, but I think I notice there's a colorization from the LM burrs that kinda puts its own personality into the coffees, where the SSP MP burrs (64mm version) is just like the honest representation, but it is not so forgiving when you mess up! I thought the Mazzer 83mm burrs in the Key were doing the same kinda thing as the Monolith flats Shuriken LM burrs but in another (more conically?) way, where it colourizes the coffee (it adds a little more rich unami taste), but on the HG2 I'm not noticing or minding it as much maybe. I believe the Burrs on the HG2 I have are more seasoned, so results have been similar but been even better (smoother) on the HG2 vs the Key.
I actually really enjoyed the 83mm mazzer in the key for filter, but for espresso the body was too thin. The issue I have with those burrs is they feel like they're conicals pretending to be flats and the structure of the shot would fall apart at coarser grind sizes + faster flow rates. I think I really enjoyed them for filter because they feel relatively low extraction and when I had the Key I was enjoying some low tds brews
@@BrianQuan I always tend to grind too fine and pull longer shots if anything so maybe haven't noticed the shots falling apart because of that (or maybe seasoning is a factor with that too). They are like conicals trying to be flats, not a lot of body. I was always curious if the older HG1 or Craig Lynn HG1 prime with the same burrs but without Webers coating/treatment was also like that I've heard they have more body but less clarity and the coating does affect the profile. It would be interesting to compare them directly. Have you had a chance to try those?
@@BrianQuan I think KEY gave a clean feeling with espresso or filter. The sweetness and the aftertaste are quite good, but the body is small. It's like a flat in a conical mask. "TDS" came out a little low, but the nuance of the taste was positive. I wonder how it would be compared to MC5 (shurikone) in Filters and Espresso. In addition, the grinding distribution is wide, so the extraction time is longer than that of Flat grinding.(Filter) Do you extract by increasing the extraction time? Or did you enjoy low tds filter coffee with the same extraction time?
Thanks Brian. Ssp brew and SW Max seems to be my 2 grinder answer then. My description for Sw vs lm in 73mm monoliths would be similar to your sw vs brew (but less net clarity overall.) I find with my 73mm sweet I need to run like 80-90rpm to get a satisfactory brewed cup which is tedious, especially when that's stall city on spro. I also can't consistently (80+%) triangle test them (sw vs lm).
@@d077Z Interesting. I wonder if there would be a difference on the MAX. Also the burrs seem to have undergone a few revisions over the years for a different reason (to increase grinding speed). A little concerned if the body is even less on the SLM as you've described.
As someone who’s eagerly awaiting their Max with SLM burrs this December, this video makes it an even longer wait 😄 having someone more experienced with super endgame burr sets than me confirm SLM is a great choice is just the best news I could get today. Just 4-5 more months to go… 🕐
super interesting video, have been watching and enjoying a bunch of yours recently. love the technical discussion and detail. personally, I own a max and ek and have the HU, pre-2015 EK, SLM, and SSW burrs. like you, I prefer filter coffee, but I weirdly tend to drink more espresso since I find the challenge fun so know the burrs more in that context. I also enjoy the LM for filter. dislike the HU for brew (too clean, "hollow," kind of metallic - I know Lance Hendrick likes them so more YMMV; fwiw I also dislike sieved filter coffee - again too clean, lacking complexity). I love the pre-'15 EK for brew - super clean, high acidity, great clarity (believe these are equivalent to the cast or brew SSP?). So, I currently run a set the pre-15 for brew and HU for espresso (super nice for high-clarity turbo shots). LM seem like a solid compromise for brew+spro but aren't optimal for either to my palate.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing. How do you find SSW vs SLM for espresso? For light SO roasts which burr would you recommend? It's difficult to pin down the actual differences between these two burrs.
@@msupra1894 I would go for SSW. but I would _actually_ go for SSP HU (remember HU 98mm = MP 64mm because SSP naming conventions are silly). SLM is more traditional but of course more sweet and clean than conicals. HU is ultra clean, high clarity, high extracting, lower body. SSW is in between - could be good if you want something more modern than LM but not as modern as HU. another thing to keep in mind is that prior to the Shruiken burrs Denis preferred the more old school SSP (LU?), which is a clue to the style of espresso Shruiken produce.
@@atomikpi I sent through a reply a couple hours ago but can't find it.. Thanks again. Do the SWs have less body and mouth feel than the LMs? Just concerned about the LMs considering that most talk on the kafatek forums is of shots being pulled as ristretto style rather than 1:2 normal.
What do you think about Fabian's opinion on both burrs. It can be found on the kafatek forum from a thread called "Shuriken flat Max Low Yield Shots, High EYs"
@@msupra1894 I pull around 1:2.5 to 1:3 so probably not a good person to reference here, hah. I do like _some_ body in shots and think the SW produce adequate body but less than the LM. If you want something that produces good body and sweetness, LM is probably the safe bet, and SW will lose some body for added sweetness and clarity.
Is SSP 98mm Cast the same thing as "pre-2015 EK43"? I can't keep the names straight. I like the sound of the KafaTek Shuriken CR, but I wish you could buy them separately to put in a P100. I demand standardization!
Thanks Brian - given your assessment of the Max LM burrs, is it fair to conclude that you would have to recommend the MaxLM for most (ie anyone focused on medium with some light) over the P100?? Thx!!
Hey! I have both these grinders as well :) - Wondering if you also notice to have slow drawdowns with the Nautilus SSP brew burrs? I feel since the grinds are so uniform - there are no channels - very little bypass.
Hey Brian, thanks for all of the great info. How are the SSP Brew for espresso? I really like the SSP HU in my p100 for espresso, but have a Kafatek SLM coming. Your video made me think about possibly trying the SSP Brew in the p100, but I'm more espresso than filter these days.
I touched upon this a bit in my other video, but basically SSP Brew have crazy fast transitions between everything and have 0 linger with very tea like body. This is something that may not be super enjoyable unless you are pulling longer ratio espressos.
Shuriken burrs roatate in the opposite direction of SSP (and all other) 98mm burrs. So if you put Shuriken in another grinder, the burrs will be ineffectively spinning backwards.
I've got a monolith coming in december with LM burrs and was wondering what your opinion on these burrs vs the typical burrs in an EK43(assuming good alignment) at the local coffee shop for pour over would be? I'm worried I should have just bought a short EK or a nautilus as I'm more into pour over and my intention is to replicate the flavor I get from the coffee shop only in a smaller grinder.
The EK43 is NOT a good single dosing grinder! Way too much space around the auger where fragments are thrown back and lay until the use. Also, it's loud and messy. Monolith vs. Nautilus is likely a matter of design preference, as they both have no orifices that's cause meaningful retention. Also, Brian is talking about differences in the top of the crop :) You're going to be more than fine with any choice you make (unless it's an EK43).
Thanks Brian for another awesome video! Have you tried the eg-1 ultra burrs? Would love if if you could also feature a comparison with the EG-1 and how the burrs in eg1 performs and taste in comparison. Thanks once again for you very helpful videos
I have tried the non blind ULF version in a Ditting KR804 and found them to have really big body and good clarity. They to me felt very similar to the 80mm Cast LS burrs but less clear.
Really?! I have the cast LS and the SSP ULF (HU) for my 804 and I find the exact opposite! Also Lance Hedrick’s review found the LS burr more like a clear conical - big body and some clarity, but not as much as any of the other 64mm burrs he reviewed. Strange that your experience is so different to mine. So how would you say the ULF compare to the core/LM burrs?
Would SSP Brew work in Monolith? I missed CR preorder again… starting to get fed up with monolith so in between changing to SSP or change the grinder as a whole.
Brian - how do the Niche Zero and Lagom Mini compare for pour-over coffee? Are they as similar in taste profile for pour-over as they are for espresso?
In espresso I much prefer the Lagom Mini over the Niche. In pour-over there is no comparison. Mini hands down is much better and now even better with the moonshine burrs.
Dont show this video to Tim. If you lads are seen comparing drinks while sipping from different shaped cups (that will impact the taste perception) you will be banned from the coffee industry.
Great review Brian! I have an MC4, in which I will be installing a set of the Shurikones for Espresso only, as soon as they ship. Thinking about adding a Kafatek Flat 75MM with the new coarse burrs when I have an occasional need for filter coffee. I generally use med to med dark roasted beans for both. Do you think that would be a good combo, or should I get the LM for the Flat?
You are living my dream getting to play with end game grinders all the time. I love these vids.
Thank you for very nice comparison !! Very insightful for the information of the coarse burrs. But I think for the blind tested. If you could pull for double cups of each burrs. Then try to match them first. After that guess what the couple sets is what grinder. The result of the test would be more accurate than just guess what cup is what.
Anyway, hope to see a comparison between P100 HU / Max SLM / MAX SSW. I also have a MAX SLM and really want to try SSW burrs.
The 2022 revision also looks fantastic even its just a very subtle change but it makes them more beautiful aesthetic grinder.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for comparing Max LM with Max CR! You just saved me a lot of money. I figure between MC4 ans Max LM I have things pretty well covered!
Hi! How would you compare the MC4 and the Max LM? And something like the 98mm SSP HU? Thanks!
I always seem to agree with your assessment of these burrs (even though I haven't really tried the 98mm versions!).
If its anything like the LM burrs for the 75mm Flat the Shuriken LMs are 'supposed' to be espresso oriented but I did find they do REALLY well for filter / coarser brew coffee as well. Also very forgiving for espresso when I first used it, I was putting some older / bad coffee through it and decided to try THAT coffee and It even kinda makes not so great coffee taste alright it seems!
I actually have been enjoying the Weber HG-2 lately for espresso, it seems even more forgiving (conical burrs generally are more forgiving) but like even when the shots are channeling or timing is pretty off, it's still turning out pretty nice and smooth!
The shurikens are enjoyable, but I think I notice there's a colorization from the LM burrs that kinda puts its own personality into the coffees, where the SSP MP burrs (64mm version) is just like the honest representation, but it is not so forgiving when you mess up!
I thought the Mazzer 83mm burrs in the Key were doing the same kinda thing as the Monolith flats Shuriken LM burrs but in another (more conically?) way, where it colourizes the coffee (it adds a little more rich unami taste), but on the HG2 I'm not noticing or minding it as much maybe. I believe the Burrs on the HG2 I have are more seasoned, so results have been similar but been even better (smoother) on the HG2 vs the Key.
That's because you have good taste :^)
I actually really enjoyed the 83mm mazzer in the key for filter, but for espresso the body was too thin. The issue I have with those burrs is they feel like they're conicals pretending to be flats and the structure of the shot would fall apart at coarser grind sizes + faster flow rates. I think I really enjoyed them for filter because they feel relatively low extraction and when I had the Key I was enjoying some low tds brews
@@BrianQuan I always tend to grind too fine and pull longer shots if anything so maybe haven't noticed the shots falling apart because of that (or maybe seasoning is a factor with that too). They are like conicals trying to be flats, not a lot of body. I was always curious if the older HG1 or Craig Lynn HG1 prime with the same burrs but without Webers coating/treatment was also like that I've heard they have more body but less clarity and the coating does affect the profile. It would be interesting to compare them directly.
Have you had a chance to try those?
@@BrianQuan I think KEY gave a clean feeling with espresso or filter. The sweetness and the aftertaste are quite good, but the body is small. It's like a flat in a conical mask.
"TDS" came out a little low, but the nuance of the taste was positive.
I wonder how it would be compared to MC5 (shurikone) in Filters and Espresso.
In addition, the grinding distribution is wide, so the extraction time is longer than that of Flat grinding.(Filter)
Do you extract by increasing the extraction time? Or did you enjoy low tds filter coffee with the same extraction time?
Thanks Brian. Ssp brew and SW Max seems to be my 2 grinder answer then. My description for Sw vs lm in 73mm monoliths would be similar to your sw vs brew (but less net clarity overall.)
I find with my 73mm sweet I need to run like 80-90rpm to get a satisfactory brewed cup which is tedious, especially when that's stall city on spro.
I also can't consistently (80+%) triangle test them (sw vs lm).
How would you describe the differences between SLM and SSW for espresso? Thank you.
@@msupra1894 sw is more rounded. Marginal clarity loss for more roundness and body on the sw. Becomes more of an issue for non trad spro.
@@d077Z Interesting. I wonder if there would be a difference on the MAX. Also the burrs seem to have undergone a few revisions over the years for a different reason (to increase grinding speed). A little concerned if the body is even less on the SLM as you've described.
As someone who’s eagerly awaiting their Max with SLM burrs this December, this video makes it an even longer wait 😄 having someone more experienced with super endgame burr sets than me confirm SLM is a great choice is just the best news I could get today. Just 4-5 more months to go… 🕐
super interesting video, have been watching and enjoying a bunch of yours recently. love the technical discussion and detail.
personally, I own a max and ek and have the HU, pre-2015 EK, SLM, and SSW burrs. like you, I prefer filter coffee, but I weirdly tend to drink more espresso since I find the challenge fun so know the burrs more in that context. I also enjoy the LM for filter. dislike the HU for brew (too clean, "hollow," kind of metallic - I know Lance Hendrick likes them so more YMMV; fwiw I also dislike sieved filter coffee - again too clean, lacking complexity). I love the pre-'15 EK for brew - super clean, high acidity, great clarity (believe these are equivalent to the cast or brew SSP?). So, I currently run a set the pre-15 for brew and HU for espresso (super nice for high-clarity turbo shots). LM seem like a solid compromise for brew+spro but aren't optimal for either to my palate.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing. How do you find SSW vs SLM for espresso? For light SO roasts which burr would you recommend? It's difficult to pin down the actual differences between these two burrs.
@@msupra1894 I would go for SSW. but I would _actually_ go for SSP HU (remember HU 98mm = MP 64mm because SSP naming conventions are silly). SLM is more traditional but of course more sweet and clean than conicals. HU is ultra clean, high clarity, high extracting, lower body. SSW is in between - could be good if you want something more modern than LM but not as modern as HU. another thing to keep in mind is that prior to the Shruiken burrs Denis preferred the more old school SSP (LU?), which is a clue to the style of espresso Shruiken produce.
@@atomikpi I sent through a reply a couple hours ago but can't find it..
Thanks again. Do the SWs have less body and mouth feel than the LMs? Just concerned about the LMs considering that most talk on the kafatek forums is of shots being pulled as ristretto style rather than 1:2 normal.
What do you think about Fabian's opinion on both burrs. It can be found on the kafatek forum from a thread called "Shuriken flat Max Low Yield Shots, High EYs"
@@msupra1894 I pull around 1:2.5 to 1:3 so probably not a good person to reference here, hah. I do like _some_ body in shots and think the SW produce adequate body but less than the LM. If you want something that produces good body and sweetness, LM is probably the safe bet, and SW will lose some body for added sweetness and clarity.
Thanks for the video Brian
Is SSP 98mm Cast the same thing as "pre-2015 EK43"? I can't keep the names straight.
I like the sound of the KafaTek Shuriken CR, but I wish you could buy them separately to put in a P100. I demand standardization!
Thanks Brian - given your assessment of the Max LM burrs, is it fair to conclude that you would have to recommend the MaxLM for most (ie anyone focused on medium with some light) over the P100?? Thx!!
Hey! I have both these grinders as well :) - Wondering if you also notice to have slow drawdowns with the Nautilus SSP brew burrs?
I feel since the grinds are so uniform - there are no channels - very little bypass.
Have you ever compared SLM vs SSP Brew for a pour over?
Hi Brian, do you know where I can purchase a tumblr (grind catcher) like the one on the middle kafatek max? I can’t seem to find one! Thanks!
what do you do for a living to afford these things
gotta get the Compak PK100 Lab for testing
Hey Brian, thanks for all of the great info. How are the SSP Brew for espresso? I really like the SSP HU in my p100 for espresso, but have a Kafatek SLM coming. Your video made me think about possibly trying the SSP Brew in the p100, but I'm more espresso than filter these days.
I touched upon this a bit in my other video, but basically SSP Brew have crazy fast transitions between everything and have 0 linger with very tea like body. This is something that may not be super enjoyable unless you are pulling longer ratio espressos.
@@BrianQuan ah thx that’s very helpful :)
Have you tried the e37z hero?
side note, are any/all of these 98mm burrs interchangeable with the grinders? + p100?
Shiruken burrs only work with Kafatek Monolith Max and not with any other grinders
@@jules5350 gotcha, thanks for the info
As far as I know they work with the nautilus, but you can't buy them without a kafatek grinder
Shuriken burrs roatate in the opposite direction of SSP (and all other) 98mm burrs. So if you put Shuriken in another grinder, the burrs will be ineffectively spinning backwards.
I've got a monolith coming in december with LM burrs and was wondering what your opinion on these burrs vs the typical burrs in an EK43(assuming good alignment) at the local coffee shop for pour over would be? I'm worried I should have just bought a short EK or a nautilus as I'm more into pour over and my intention is to replicate the flavor I get from the coffee shop only in a smaller grinder.
The EK43 is NOT a good single dosing grinder! Way too much space around the auger where fragments are thrown back and lay until the use. Also, it's loud and messy.
Monolith vs. Nautilus is likely a matter of design preference, as they both have no orifices that's cause meaningful retention.
Also, Brian is talking about differences in the top of the crop :) You're going to be more than fine with any choice you make (unless it's an EK43).
I'd also consider how you turn on the Nautilius vs. Max. The Nautilus PSU or footpedal vs. an on/off button
Thanks Brian for another awesome video! Have you tried the eg-1 ultra burrs? Would love if if you could also feature a comparison with the EG-1 and how the burrs in eg1 performs and taste in comparison. Thanks once again for you very helpful videos
Hey Brian, thanks for the video! Yes I’d love to hear how the EG1 ultra (SSP HU) compare to the 98 SSP and Kafatek burrs. Thanks!
Me too, I’m thinking about getting a set of ultra burrs for my EG-1 and would love to know where they sit compared to Core burrs and others.
@@obiwun32 ah cool. How are the core burrs performing in filter? Are there a lot of fines?
I have tried the non blind ULF version in a Ditting KR804 and found them to have really big body and good clarity. They to me felt very similar to the 80mm Cast LS burrs but less clear.
Really?! I have the cast LS and the SSP ULF (HU) for my 804 and I find the exact opposite! Also Lance Hedrick’s review found the LS burr more like a clear conical - big body and some clarity, but not as much as any of the other 64mm burrs he reviewed. Strange that your experience is so different to mine. So how would you say the ULF compare to the core/LM burrs?
Espresso next time please
You can't grind fine enough with the CR so that's why no espresso :P
Hey Brian, I'm sure you have friends with SSW burrs but if you want to borrow my Max SSW for a while you're welcome too. I'm also in the Bay Area.
Reach out to me on IG or email! I host coffee sessions almost every week in Palo Alto. Let's get together
@@BrianQuan did you get a chance to try the SSW? What are the differences with the SLMs?
Any updates for SLM vs SSW?
Convinced me to not buy another Max :D
Your gear budget must be insane
Would SSP Brew work in Monolith? I missed CR preorder again… starting to get fed up with monolith so in between changing to SSP or change the grinder as a whole.
Brian - how do the Niche Zero and Lagom Mini compare for pour-over coffee? Are they as similar in taste profile for pour-over as they are for espresso?
In espresso I much prefer the Lagom Mini over the Niche. In pour-over there is no comparison. Mini hands down is much better and now even better with the moonshine burrs.
Nice Red Max
Dont show this video to Tim. If you lads are seen comparing drinks while sipping from different shaped cups (that will impact the taste perception) you will be banned from the coffee industry.
I'm already banned for not grinding fine enough
need to take out a mortgage for your grinder collection 😅
Great review Brian! I have an MC4, in which I will be installing a set of the Shurikones for Espresso only, as soon as they ship. Thinking about adding a Kafatek Flat 75MM with the new coarse burrs when I have an occasional need for filter coffee. I generally use med to med dark roasted beans for both. Do you think that would be a good combo, or should I get the LM for the Flat?