What Happened to the Book of Mormon Witnesses? | LDS Discussions Ep 55 | Ep 1905
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- Опубліковано 6 чер 2024
- Julia joins the team again to examine the fates of the alleged witnesses to the golden plates of the Book of Mormon, revealing a trail of broken testimonies, apostasies and bizarre offshoots. Nearly all the witnesses later followed eccentric claimants like James Strang, raising serious credibility issues. By scrutinizing discrepancies in accounts, shifting narratives around Joseph Smith's "translating power," and the rich local history of buried plate legends, Julia builds a powerful case challenging the orthodox story behind Mormonism's foundational scripture.
Show Notes: www.mormonstories.org/portfol...
LDS Discussions Full Playlist: • LDS Discussions - An E...
Chapters
00:06:50 Summary
00:10:05 John Whitmer
00:13:30 Jacob Whitmer
00:14:00 Hiram Page
00:16:00 Many Churches believe in the Book of Mormon
00:18:00 Good summary of cog-dis (long short)
00:22:20 James Strang
00:28:45 Gladden Bishop
00:33:10 What happened to the Other Witnesses?
01:12:00 Summary of Problematic Sources
01:20:40 Rich History of Buried Plates
01:52:00 Closing Thoughts
___________________
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I have no connection whatsoever to the LDS Church but I enjoy watching
Same here.
Me too.
Me 3
Snap! 🤷🤣
It's fascinating
Studying Mormonism can teach so much about human motivations and psychology.
💯
Julia has been so amazing in this series, and I hope she 'becomes a regular on your show. Personally, I don't think she talks too fast. She is just brimming with knowledge.
Speaking fast? Yes, but very understandable and great diction. What I love about her is her LAUGH!! It sounds like peals from a bell- so musical and pretty!
Mike, you must understand how much so many people appreciate you and your willingness to share your scholarship!
Thank you so much! Be well and enjoy life!
W hat a mind-blowing episode. Of all the living witnesses, only 1 didn't follow Strang!? And Joseph's own family members also joined Strang! Incredible.
Never LDS but grew up JW. Your channel helps me undersrand my family & my past. Thank you.
So glad you are free. 🫂♥️
I love analyzing mormonism, and I am so glad she's becoming a regular on the show
@45:40 YES! Mike is spot on! The FLDS church is much closer to what Joseph Smith believed than the modern LDS church is.
I teach my students a three step counterargument.
1. Figure out what the other side is going to say.
2. Say it first.
3. Then, RIP IT APART-nicely. If you don’t do it politely, people will stop listening.
Mike does the kindest ripping apart I have seen. Bravo.
Never Mormon here - I love LDS Discussions!
Blows my mind that never Mormons are here but I’m so glad they are. Mormonism is a microcosm of human behavior throughout the history of mankind.
I’m a ‘never Mormon’ as well, and I enjoy this channel so much!
Always good when the fantastic four get together.
Have been binging these and am seeing that the finale is going on while watching one of the earlier episodes. Just want to hop in to say thank you to Mike for compiling this and John and Nemo and all of the others who have been a part of the series. This has meant the world to me and as someone who was entranced by church and ancient scripture historicity and translation when i was active and on a mission, this has scratched a unique and important itch for me.
Love this whole series. Love that Mike always comes in with the straight forward logic.
Thank you, Mike, for all your work and research on this series!
Thanks so much for all you have done, Mike. Your efforts are in the same league as Jerald and Sandra Tanner and Jeremy Runnells. Thousands of people will be forever grateful.
I agree it takes a long time to shed the layers of what a person has believed....I only attended LDS CHURCH FOR 10 MTHS...people I know who are cradle LDS who left the church are shocked how their own parents and family disowned them and even after 30 yrs are still disowned 😮
You may not know that you're being deceived and that it is a false religion. Your soul is in danger. Stop and research and flee from it.
That’s very surprising, since, their teachings value family so much.
@@darleneburatty5849 who are you addressing this to?
UNREAL. THAT'S THEIR LOVE OF GOD FOR YA!
I love how john is always concerned about the education of his guests
Thank you so much to all 4 of you! I started my truth awakening to the Mormon church in 2020 and I have loved every episode of these LDS discussions.
"Beating the dead horse" has given me so much closure with my relationship with the church so thank you for all of your work and the time that you have put into spreading the truth about the church!
We love this series. Thank you Mike! Your work has made such a difference in our lives.
Always love listening to Nemo & John, too.
Julia, please please slow down 🙏🏻🙏🏻
Some of the family prefers to read the manuscript but it does take longer.
Thank you, Jonh for doing what you do. I’m a never Mormon, but Mormon stories have helped me as a former Christian during my own faith journey as Mormonism was just far enough away from mainstream Christianity that listening to the stories and discussions did not immediately cause me to put up the shields and stop thoughts but close enough to let the questions that had been piling up come back into my mind
I enjoy the four of you together, thanks Julia for putting this out for us. I think we need this to pop up again for newbies who may have missed the earlier research from the old geezers Grant Palmer and Mike Quinn and others I can't remember.
With the Church now saying that Smith translated the BoMor from the Seer Stone, just exactly what is purpose of the Gold Plates?
The plates that would have been 300 lbs that nobody ever saw? I think mostly the purpose is to be forgotten and erased from the story is what I expect will happen.
Now you are asking the right questions...
@@sjenson6694 Where are you getting 300lbs?
@@elizabethwheeler8878it’s been figured out by description given of the size and material used how much they would’ve weighed.
Joseph saying he was attacked three times to explain his dislocated thumb when he could've just said he tripped is so wacky to me.
Right, but makes so much sense when considering overall motivations. A faith promoting story about his real, actual gold plates that other people are after is so much better than some version of, "I tripped and fell on my thumb".
Here's what I don't get about that story though, and it drives me a little crazy that once again I see people talking about it and they don't mention this, but why were these guys whacking poor Joe with guns?
First, if you're just going to pummel a guy, I would think there would be plenty more likely options, like simply a rock or maybe a fallen tree branch. Those are things available in nature on the way, not even counting something that could be brought from a person's home, like a hammer. But no, instead, they're hitting him with their guns. You know, because that makes so much more sense than using that gun to shoot him, therefore getting what you want by taking a set of gold plates off a dead guy.
So, they all have guns, but nobody shoots, they just use the guns to bludgeon. And why, we might ask, would that be the story??? Because the presence of guns substantially heightens the level of threat and perceived danger. But there has to be a reason he isn't killed, right? Or at least making it home with a gunshot wound? So, as it turns out, Joe's bad guys have guns, but they don't shoot, they just hit.
Mike, you are great!
I’m dubbing you the Fab Four! So enjoyable.
Julia, Great work! I really need to take notes when you lead. Thank you!
Agreed Mike. Yes you finally just have to say, “ENOUGH “. ❤🎉😊
Yes, Nemo, as re the "painting of js":
It SERVES EVERY
PRURIENT PURPOSE
and
SATISFIES to justify every COLOSSAL CONTRADICTION
OF
PATHOLOGICAL DECEPTION.
Thank you all sooo much, and how wonderful to see/hear you together again. 🐦🌹🐦🌹🐦
My favorite
I'm a geologist, and I can affirm that we have for quite some time considered that many dinosaurs did have feathers. All you have to do is look at a wet emu and you'll see it. They postulate that velociraptor may have used it's feathers for balance while it clung to the back of fleeing prey. I could go on about copper for DAYS (I do some pewter casting in addition to the whole rock-chemist thing) but it's also true that it's one of the few metals you can find in elemental form on the regular, as to why... lol like I said, for days.
I just finished Grant Palmer’s book yesterday. It was a good read. I very much enjoyed watching the several UA-cam interviews he did before he passed away. What a wonderful, sincere man!
If nothing else comes from Chad Daybell's terrible case, i hope it at least goes ro show how easy it is to make stuff up and convince scores of others without God having anything to do with it.
I never tire of "Mike" and luv Julia and tolerate NEMO...wouldn't miss it!
Totally different hat so I figured it meritted a different comment. I do historic reenactments for funsies and specialize in the arts/sciences. One of the things we make sometimes is a wax tablet. You would have a piece of metal or (usually) wood cut like a shallow shadow box and filled with wax. Those will have book like covers, and come with a stylus that you use to carve the wax or smooth it out when you didn't need it. It was kinda a notepad people could keep handy that was waterproof and cheap but could also be fancy if you used fancy metals. I've seen it done both ways.
Now, wax, and metal, you might see them doing lost wax casting. They would use a piece of wax, and carve whatever they wanted in it, then put it in a casting medium (usually certain types of sand). The sand holds the shape, and the wax is melted out and molten metal is poured in to the void. We use that regularly even now, in things like making golf clubs or jewlery. This method would account for using softer stylus since it just cuts the wax.
Re. Cuniform, if they wanted to make it last, they fired the clay. Firing clay doesn't just dry it out, it actually causes it to remineralize to an extent, it literally alters it's crystalizne structure.
Oooh. I was missing these. Hooray love them
I hope all of you know just how incredibly grateful so many of us are for the work that you all are doing. No greater gift in my life, than the gift of a faith crisis, and ultimately, freedom. For me, my family, my friends and siblings who slowly found their way. About 20 people in total. I'm not alone anymore, because of the work you've done ❤🙏
Such an interesting discussion, as a Cree person in Canada I find it interesting they are talking about a book about Native history considering most teachings were done orally! They are interesting books on mound builders our son an archaeological student who has studied them. I also remember seeing a documentary about a group of men in the state spending a huge amount of money supposedly buying these plates.
Bing the Button guys 👍👍
I moved to Holiday about a year ago. I was raised LDS. I enjoy your channel very much. If you ever need a nonactive member with an incredible story, I your guy.
If you have FB or Insta, it might be a more effective way to contact them.
Apparently there’s an application form on the Mormon Stories website for those interested in being interviewed.
1:42:00 I read this article as I worked my way through the giant stack of ensigns I found in an apartment during a few transfers on my mission.
"Maybe Joseph was using different plates at different times to try, you know, convince people" John D.
I think a more parsimonious answer would be that the witnesses saw the plates in their "minds eye" or simply lied, which explains why their descriptions vary. John' s, out of left field, hypothetical musing struck me as extra funky 😂
Thank you Mike for all of these excellent episodes. I enjoyed and learned so much from all of them.
It is not surprising that the Smiths and Whitmers followed Strang. Brigham refused to give them a seat at the table.
Julie, your delivery is good, but please slow down.
Researching JS is energy draining, emotionally a stress enhancer.
@nolavee. IT IS
EXHAUSTING to hear NONSENSE and
attempt to reason what is unreasonable.
And if one has been raised up in any religious form - and we all are -
IT IS UNNERVING to realize and accept that this specious
thing "has been done to us"!
"But the day comes , AND IT WILL COME UPON EVERY MAN WHO IS IN THE EARTH," as it is written. And it burns in our bones and melts our brains.
Still, this is our appointment - each one of us -
our INDIVIDUAL life and path, to come, for ourselves, into the knowledge of God.
No man can "save" any soul but his own [i.e., NO family or associations can redeem or ransom any soul]. Every soul shall DIE for his own sins.
It is, literally, a fight to that death of our "first man". But we are not left orphaned,
nor without help, nor without hope. We have been RANSOMED FROM that SYSTEM of "sin" devised
by priests, their traditions
and notions - and potions - who "make a man an offender BY ONE WORD,
and for a thing
of naught" (because) 'priests'
have grown FAT off the "sins" of My people!"
Now we are also redeemed by the only acceptable SACRIFICE and OFFERING, even the Sovereign Creator
and Possessor of ALL
things.
Therefore, WE ARE NOT OUR
OWN, being bought for a very great price: the Lamb of God Who takes away
the SINS
OF THE WORLD.
Of ourselves, we know nothing nor can receive anything except from Him. No perform-
ances of ostentatious "good works" and church/public "service";
NO ritual, as taken from ancient paganism or decreed as "new revelation" by greedy men;
no dogged, neurotic seeking of instruction from or "obed- ience" to men who set themselves up to speak as
God FOR God;
no system of human-devised
ADDITIONS TO-; REVISIONS of-; or "OTHER
TESTIMONIES" of
The Gospel
brought
and taught by Jesus the Christ of God ALONE.
Jesus said to the Scribes and the Pharisees:
"YOU VIPERS!
HYPOCRITES!
"Go and LEARN
FOR YOURSELVES what is
right!"
And to His disciples, Jesus
said: "Apart from ME, you can do nothing.
"NOW you are CLEAN THROUGH THE WORDS
I. HAVE. SPOKEN. TO. YOU.
"...ALL things that I have
heard OF MY FATHER
I HAVE
MADE KNOWN TO YOU.
"ABIDE IN ME, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear
fruit OF ITSELF, except it
abide in the vine; NO MORE
CAN YOU, except you
abide IN Me.
"If you ABIDE IN ME,
and MY WORDS abide
in you,
you shall ask what you will,
AND IT SHALL BE DONE
UNTO YOU."
Mike is awesome I enjoyed his wit and wisdom, I hope he comes back!
I have always felt that unlike all the born again Christians I know I don't seem to come up with a testimony...I have studied and been a believer since childhood...I don't seem to get online with what other people say...
Mike, I kind of enjoyed your rant. And yes, Martin Harris probably should have been eliminated from the witness pool. We know it was his money that bought him the "opportunity".
I've often wondered 🤔If the entire (LDS) wasn't deceived by the adversary? I mean for a plain original man to rewrite scriptures and add extra books into the original bible that had been written already,Would have raised an eyebrow or two in the present day?An ordinary original man
"Joseph Smith" began his journey through lies and blasphemy and to see how many followers of that doctrine is really scary! And I am also including all the other religions that claim to have heard voices and claim to have seen visions ? And have had the liberty to add and subtract from the sound doctrine have all faced God and will be judged,I would love to be there when this all happens! 🤔 The last time I checked and read the Holy Bible (KJV) It clearly says that in the book of Revelations that (No man should add /subtract from the word of God Almighty.
This is straight up damning for TSCC.
…………believing = not knowing ………
If a belief relies upon faith, that means it’s choice to believe it or not.
Faith never made something true that never was. When we have hundreds of years of archeology that has never unearthed a single pre Columbian steel object that right there proves it's crap.
@@sjenson6694 I don't think that just because we haven't found anything yet doesn't mean it couldn't exist. Science is finding new things every day, right?
Great team work. The current Mormon apostles are as worthless as witnesses as the original three witnesses 😂
Joseph was also crippled. Yet he runs and jumps fences and fights off chasers and never drops the plates
It's funny how only the thieves can see the golden plates, but the true believers could only see in the plates in the sprit. 🤔
DREAM 🌈 TEAM.
Great episode! Just one comment. The panel dismisses the claim that someone can dislocate a thumb while punching someone. Actually, I have had thumb injuries resulting both from a street fight and from boxing training. And I was quite well trained. In a street or forest fight you act instinctively and technique may suffer. For context, I am an atheist exmo and don't believe the plates existed. But dislocating a thumb in a fight with no gloves is very plausible. Give it a try 😂.
Has any one heard this quote by Oliver cowdry as posted on thoughtful faith Channel… "Jacob, I want you to remember what I say to you. I am a dying man, and what would it profit me to tell you a lie? I know, that this Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God. My eyes saw, my ears heard, and my understanding was touched, and I know that whereof I testified is true. It was no dream, no vain imagination of the mind-it was real".-Oliver Cowdery shortly after he returned to the church, just prior to his death…. Thoughts?
Enjoy your hiatus Mike
Please stop saying "the witnesses aren't important." With all due respect, questioning members might be leaning on the witnesses to retain their shaky testimonies. You could say "this thing doesn't matter" about any of the problems in church history; but, that one thing may be what still has a hold on the questioning member. It's the vast accumulation of issues that finally knock down this house of cards. Great job, Julia!
Which church of Christ there is one that is nothing like the Mormons
I fell asleep to the podcast and woke up at 1:44:50 to John making dumb noises! 😂
My mother in law lied to me and told me she had already paid for tickets for the martin harris pageant so i would show up and make her look like all her kids were perfect believing perfect mormon family imagine. Im not one for musicals so it pissed me off. THEN i find out what a gullible person he was makes me even more angry. I hate being lied to. Its why im not a member and ultimately that pageant is what made me dislike my mother in law. She is the reason i see the church as nothing but a narcissistic training institution. Sorry for the rant.
YES LDS discussions! He is the man who’s dead inside lmao
Did Nemo just get back from TX?
Has anyone else noticed the digs john dehlin does towards Mike? I can see why Mike gets tired. I hear them
Interesting, from Martin Harris to Dallin Harris Oaks! Crazy .
Its in the prison library under unbanned books!
What is?
Hands down the most important thing you’ve ever done. Not perhaps.
Clap clap!
What a character Martin Harris must have been. He just followed anyone that dangled a carrot in front of him.
Regarding the 8 Witnesses whose claims include "hefting" and "seeing characters", perhaps this indicates they saw something that looked like what was claimed, yet we can still be forgiven for not taking their testimony at face value, because we have no indication that these 8 men had the expertise to determine if the etched characters were authentic, or that the plates were really gold, nor can we be assured that none of them were under the influence of a psychedelic, etc. So while I'm fine with assertions that the 8 Witnesses saw a real object, I find that an inadequate reason to believe their testimony should hold any weight.
for some odd reason your guys's show does not come up on my UA-cam feed anymore for some odd reason
It's amazing how many people can be caught up in deception so easily. With your soul at stake, you might want to be cautious as to what "religion " you choose to follow. Satan is in this world and snatches up people. Pray, in the name of Jesus Christ, to help you find a good Christian church. Don't just follow man. God Bless.
Just a side note on your questions about the wax.
What he’s describing is a primitive form of etching. You lay down a skim coat of wax, then use something with a sharp point to cut your letters or symbols into the wax. To fix a mistake, heat up the stylus and flatten the wax back out.
Once you are ready to etch, simply place the plate in question into a liquid bath of something acidic. Wash off the solution and the wax and you have an etched plate. Etching solutions such as hydrogen peroxide would have been readily available in the 1800’s. Something historic would have been acids such as a urine, salt water or vinegar.
Yes, they edged into the wax not metal! 1:32:05 That was standard in Ancient Roman times, for students to practice in school.
yezzzzz!
Most of the witnesses reflect the confusion over authority after the death of Joseph Smith.
Strang was non-polygamous option until he moved from Wisconsin to Beaver Island. I think George A. Adams had a role in this
Do you honestly believe that these witnesses are for real? There's so much hockum connected to Mormon anything. Sometimes it's so hard for me to injest some of these tales of woe. I still think the Book of Mormon is a religious satire. Gulliver's travels was a political satire. Many blessings ya'll.
The witnesses? Even Emma gave up on the scam..
Actually Emma never gave up on her testimony. She did however left the church
@@paulamortensen36Which is the same thing..
Nemo's back from texas. Keep fighting the good fight.
If Joseph Smith really got golden plates he would have melted them down and made them into rings for all his wives
John and Others, a similar deep dive into the history of the Church of the 2 by 2 is being documented on the channel The Hidden Truth, run by Jon McLernon from Canada. Cherie Kropp wrote an extensive history of the church called Preserving the Truth. Lots of interesting parallels in her experience and yours.
57:58 This whole section about apologists, is sooo important to all of these things-QAnon, Scientology, all of those false narratives use the same tactics. 😢 It’s sad. And evil. Straight up evil. Most of them know exactly what they are doing and it’s for personal profit.✌️♥️
Jammy dodgers are apparently vegan?
The girl speaks way too fasr!!
I love Nemo’s point that he made about spiritual experiences in the church. Those experiences are yours. They were meaningful to you, but It doesn’t mean that the church is true. If that were the case, many movies that I see are true as well.
Are we saying Strang had his own plates ? And the other guy had his own plates also ? So much plate hiding !
I think they were all smoking peyote like the Native American did to connect with spirits 😂
Indiana Smith.
My thoughts to you Mike regarding the amount of content you an TEAM have put in, this is the study of HUMANS an how they behave to topics . Hope you get some rest away from this. Cheers, im a non believer to the LDS FAITH
For those early 1800s reports of copper and tin plates found near burial mounts, etc, is there any offering of a date of authorship? My guess is the date would be centuries if not millennia later than what the LDS claim to be the date of supposed ancient records on plates buried and guarded. Secondly, none of the plates or even the rolled up copper with inscriptions seem remotely similar to a codex. What is the LDS explanation or even historical comparison to a codex text being used in ancient records? A brass plate with a deed...with a notice...with an epitaph... This is one thing. Multiple brass plates bound by rings as a book is entirely ahistoric from my understanding. As with the Rosetta stone, we have stone or clay tablets being used by a ancient cultures to relate stories or long form record. After we have parchment on scrolls. The idea of a codex seems so 19th century misinformed.
Witnesses?....Liars.
Shysters.. all men like trump who left later to run their own scams..
SLOW DOWN, Julia!😅
It would be good to hear of your daily good deeds. Is there time for those or is your time consumed with fault finding?
@anne. One who DOES
daily good deeds
does not publish them or flaunt them in Times Square or on the sides of public transportation.
Are you holding up a little gibble meaning, "Bite this"?
See response to @nola.
@@sheliabryant3997 fault finding is the east route
Man no table setting or anything for the less informed. Witnesses of what? What is the Book of Mormon? Why are they important to the Church? You started on the 3rd act and assumed we knew the first 2. Big miss here.
They literally tell you in the beginning that there are over 50 episodes and you need to go back to the beginning to understand what they are saying now.