Can you imagine how many operations on how many machines were needed before we got 5 axis machining centres? It used to take weeks, involve dozens of machines. The lead time was measured in months and the scrap rate was huge. These machines made a gigantic difference.
Today they grow the more advanced once blades out of single crystal, because machined parts aren't strong enough to withstand the tremendous temperatures, so yeah.. And 15 years ago ufo's were generally thought by the "insiders" to be made by coldwelding, so I gues we've surpassed them already. :-)
Must be. For those who may be wondering, "Inconel" is a trademarked name for high-nickel, high-chromium stainless steels with very high thermal stability. It doesn't cut anywhere near as easily as aluminum-family alloys.
Vasilis GG the liquid is a coolant/lubricant. It keeps the cutters from melting and keeps the chips form sticking to the tool. Also flushes the chips out of the cut. On smaller CNC machines it's usually a water-soluble oil/water emulsion, I dunno if that's the same stuff.
And then a bird gets ingested.... Amazing how much machining for one part! Some of the Citations I fly have a blisk fan. Always worries me finding bird traces around the engines knowing the whole blisk would have to be replaced instead of damaged blades. Now I got back to dripfeeding my Dynapath a 4000 line program...
It's a 2nd stage afterburner fan for the euro fighter I believe so cost is not important longevity and reliability are the key factors why the billet is machined like this you can't get the blade wall strength when forged......we use crystalline growth technology now but that's only for 5% of blade manufacturing and Rolls Royce have the market pretty much sewn up for that technology
The Soviets for some reason didn't believe in blisks. Even in the smallest engines they built they used impellers with individual blades secured in fir tree roots. Much more expensive than making a blisk...but then I guess they felt it was worth the extra expense to have fully rebuildable turbine wheels.
Any collision problems are down to bad cam->machine postprocessor programming. Not saying it would be easy to write that post but the machine looks awesome. Worth the bother.
coolant. cutting steel involves a lot of pressure. this in turn creates a lot of heat. Heat will build in the part and cutter. the part will warp and possibly harden, while the cutter will break down prematurely.
The going rate for machine time here in the US is $100.00 per hour. so yes the machining of the part is about 15K. , but the actual cost of this part is probably three times that if you add up the engineering, design, raw material, shipping costs ... etc.
It's grade 5 titanium. I don't know why they called it an Inconel blisk when they said the material machined is titanium; perhaps something lost in translation?
Billet (a single block) is stronger and more precise. Especially as it is Inconel, I'm assuming they needed to use that material based on the application for this piece, which cannot be forged exactly like other alloys. Also, a quality forging requires a lot of energy input (to melt the material) and significant clean-up afterwards anyway. For something like a turbine where balance is essential to useful life, the precision of a mill is desired.
@ravikumarjp On such long tooling, plunging is preferably used because the forces applied on the tool are upwards and using the strongest axial cut direction of any tool. Long reach tools like these would chatter trying to maintain the same mrr (material removal rate) cutting against the tool... Side cutting with any tool puts more forces vs. cutting down parallel with the spindle. Does this make sense to you? I can’t clearly see the tool to tell you which one is it.
So several days of continuous machining for one part... Would not this be a ideal candidate for wire EDM? Would think that would be much faster on this part, and maybe then you can even use the scrap chunks to make some other tings out of, like turbine blades.
It would be OK for roughing, the only problem is on parts like this you leave stock around the bottom so you can finish the top without getting vibrations. You move down with roughing finishing roughing finishing until you reach the bottom.
The inserts have a set life in minutes the control knows when that time runs out it will quarantine the tool until you change the inserts for lights out machining you can put duplicate tools in the magazine
I’d hate to be the operator of that machine. Just sitting there for a week waiting for it to finish. So what’s the white stuff between the blades not being machined?
@DanFrederiksen no we need better materials. both for the tool and especially the workpiece. If fanblades and attachment would withstand higher forces we wouldn't need a blisk in the first place. Not even for a Eurofighter (if I'm not mistaken, that's what the fan there is for.)
hey levisalo. thats an interesting question. one of the others who watch the video calculated 184h for milling this pece. at 60€ each hours is only the milling time 11000€ worth. than the time the guy needed to programme it and the raw material itself. in my opinion around 25000€ worth this peace!!!!!!! what the hack expensive! uhh
This is why these parts are often cast and then machined instead of being machined out of a solid billet. With the amount of time necessary to machine one of these out of solid Inconel it is not practical to produce in that manner.
+MegaJohnhammond That was a blisk for the compressor section (obviously blade profile of a compressor) of a gas turbine, nobody uses inconel for compressor blading, no need, its titanium for sure.
+mytmousemalibu use inconel because of its better heat retention capabilities in a powerhouse. heat= energy. wouldn't be good to use a material that loses its heat. to expensive to reheat the steam (thinking of heat loss and retention values)
+matt lewis I would think inconel would be overkill for steam, even super heated steam but my field of knowledge is in aviation. You don't want heat retention in parts like this, you want temperature resilience and temperature rejection is even better, that's why modern gas turbines use air cooled turbine section parts and ceramics and now single crystal blades. Due to the size, blade profile and material, this is got to be a compressor blisk for a small gas turbine engine, probably of size for helicopters, aircraft APU's, maybe for a turbo prop. They absolutely use blisk technology in aircraft gas turbines and other uses these days. They offer some nice advantages over conventional blading in smaller engines.
idk, maybe turbine engine for aircraft(unlikely being one piece, but possible). most likely for steam generator turbine for a power plant. I know the one at abengoa solar, in Hinkley Calif, costed around 20 million... that's just for the turbine, not housing. it was 24 feet long I believe. and weighed about 15 tons.
One rough one finish, yeah. *rolls eyes* This took 184 hours. Wow!. I think it should be uploaded in 1 hour (or 2) time lapse video. Or is a fast forward compressed video better. Which ever makes the images looks the best. That be neat. :)
Half a million in machining time? Someone must be printing money with that kind of hourly rate. I know no machine shop which would be able to pull exess of 2000 USD or Euros per hour. I would estimate that this part would cost around 30 - 40 000 euros to machine. Cost of fixtures and material on top of that.
What is the waxy substance?? Häääh. It is just coolant sticking to the blade walls. Like rain on a wiped window. Oily rain for sure. No wax. Casting needs perfect homogenity inside the material. Welding is unuseful as well.
It would be a production line so the cad and cam was done till refined then ran over and over til perfect then start making one after another and never stop xD
most likely did you see how long this took ? i cataloged 90.5 hrs and it seems to have skipped some time possibly up to 10 hours based on the minimum 3.5 hr process so at your typical machine shop rate of $50 to $60/hr we find it cost $6,030 but i doubt its going for that cheep because the cost of the machines life span must be factored in so if that mill cost 1.5 million and it only last 10 years before major repairs then you need 34$ per hour just to pay for itself running 24/7 so 68$ an hour is the cheapest possible plus you gotta pay people to run it say 2 % of that time now we are at about $ 70 per hour at 50% profit not including the cost of the material so $70/hr to get it from a manufacturer = $7,035 now a whole saler or distribution company that sells this stuff tax on 20%(8,442) plus 7% tax and shipping $9,232 but we forgot to add the power bill for 100.5 hours and i do not have those figures but we can assume the pumps and motor on this thing probably pull 3700 watts easy so 12 cents x so thats actually only 44$ so its possibly to assume 50% profit is not the margin and you could easily pay 15,000$ for this based on marketing alone they mark up industrial consumer products big time
I just shipped a titanium blisk the other day. Simular size slightly different shape blades. $55,000. We have machine time down to a month on the 5 axis.
+azbradcurtis I work on the Pratt P1524G for a certain flight test program, you should see the price tag for some of the hardware on that sucker. The fuel control is a work of art, one solid piece that was carved out on a 5-axis, incredible to look at and imagine how long it took to machine.
I could do that quicker manually... with no tool wear and + - 0.000000000001" tolerance. Approximately 2 hours to complete on a Bridgeport Miller. 😆😂🤣😉 this was machining poetry.
have you americans stopped using old fasioned letter combinations for feedrate and stuff like that ???? speed=n feedrate=Vf feed=Fz number of teeth=Z cutting speed=Vc
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Can you imagine how many operations on how many machines were needed before we got 5 axis machining centres? It used to take weeks, involve dozens of machines. The lead time was measured in months and the scrap rate was huge. These machines made a gigantic difference.
Absolutely mesmerizing. It makes it easier to understand why jet engines are priced in the millions of dollars.
Today they grow the more advanced once blades out of single crystal, because machined parts aren't strong enough to withstand the tremendous temperatures, so yeah.. And 15 years ago ufo's were generally thought by the "insiders" to be made by coldwelding, so I gues we've surpassed them already. :-)
inconel and Tylenol go hand and hand....great video of the machining process
So that's how ford makes radiator fans. I wouldn't have thought it would take so long.
Must be.
For those who may be wondering, "Inconel" is a trademarked name for high-nickel, high-chromium stainless steels with very high thermal stability. It doesn't cut anywhere near as easily as aluminum-family alloys.
This is how Pratt & Whitney make their new jet engine blisk parts for the F-35.
happy to see you're using oil as oppose to coolant for lube while working on inconel! Bet the guys at your work are glad they have cad software!!
Vasilis GG the liquid is a coolant/lubricant. It keeps the cutters from melting and keeps the chips form sticking to the tool. Also flushes the chips out of the cut. On smaller CNC machines it's usually a water-soluble oil/water emulsion, I dunno if that's the same stuff.
And then a bird gets ingested.... Amazing how much machining for one part! Some of the Citations I fly have a blisk fan. Always worries me finding bird traces around the engines knowing the whole blisk would have to be replaced instead of damaged blades. Now I got back to dripfeeding my Dynapath a 4000 line program...
A fan is not made of inco!!
It's a sacrificial filler used to support the blades so they don't deflect or bend while being milled.
It's a 2nd stage afterburner fan for the euro fighter I believe so cost is not important longevity and reliability are the key factors why the billet is machined like this you can't get the blade wall strength when forged......we use crystalline growth technology now but that's only for 5% of blade manufacturing and Rolls Royce have the market pretty much sewn up for that technology
that is a serious ceiling fan
@Choice777 Good luck! Inconel is some pretty specialized stuff, for some very specific applications. You can't just melt it and pour it into a mold.
Except... you can. Inconel 718 is castable. Can even use die casting for precision cast parts.
The Soviets for some reason didn't believe in blisks. Even in the smallest engines they built they used impellers with individual blades secured in fir tree roots. Much more expensive than making a blisk...but then I guess they felt it was worth the extra expense to have fully rebuildable turbine wheels.
being u have like a couple hundred hours in one part does that mean that piece cost like 100k plus?
Great video and awesome sound
I would liked the continuous video of this being machined. Something like 20x speed rate.
Vaya pedazo de mecanizado , además como el turron...del duro
Any collision problems are down to bad cam->machine postprocessor programming.
Not saying it would be easy to write that post but the machine looks awesome.
Worth the bother.
What kind of inserted cutter are they using? I see the heat shrink holder. What kind of heat shrink extension is that? Solid carbide?
VERY VERY GENIUS BRO
coolant. cutting steel involves a lot of pressure. this in turn creates a lot of heat. Heat will build in the part and cutter. the part will warp and possibly harden, while the cutter will break down prematurely.
The going rate for machine time here in the US is $100.00 per hour.
so yes the machining of the part is about 15K. , but the actual cost of this part is probably three times that if you add up the engineering, design, raw material, shipping costs ... etc.
Hard parts like inconel, they dont quote the price by counting the hours
i wonder how often there tools go out with it being inconel thats also a really long cycle for one piece
What keeps the blade from chatter which would also take it out of balance as well.The fact of such high sf,or light cuts and posotive rake angle?
It's grade 5 titanium. I don't know why they called it an Inconel blisk when they said the material machined is titanium; perhaps something lost in translation?
Billet (a single block) is stronger and more precise. Especially as it is Inconel, I'm assuming they needed to use that material based on the application for this piece, which cannot be forged exactly like other alloys. Also, a quality forging requires a lot of energy input (to melt the material) and significant clean-up afterwards anyway. For something like a turbine where balance is essential to useful life, the precision of a mill is desired.
Because if done right, plunge milling can remove stock really fast.
song at 0:50-4:49? pls reply :) nice machine but what´s up with that white stuff between the blade at 3:50?
The music is a terrible noise. However, the machine is quite wonderful.
@ravikumarjp
On such long tooling, plunging is preferably used because the forces applied on the tool are upwards and using the strongest axial cut direction of any tool. Long reach tools like these would chatter trying to maintain the same mrr (material removal rate) cutting against the tool... Side cutting with any tool puts more forces vs. cutting down parallel with the spindle. Does this make sense to you? I can’t clearly see the tool to tell you which one is it.
Awesome program / tool path
can any one explain why plunge milling is chosen for roughing and its advantages, and name of the Roughing tool
is the resin support cast in place? or you can re-align the piece with sufficient precision?
Regardless of being machined from a single piece of alloy, that piece must still be balanced using special balancing equipment.
So several days of continuous machining for one part...
Would not this be a ideal candidate for wire EDM? Would think that would be much faster on this part, and maybe then you can even use the scrap chunks to make some other tings out of, like turbine blades.
I don't see how a wire could do all of the contours of the blades.
It would be OK for roughing, the only problem is on parts like this you
leave stock around the bottom so you can finish the top without getting
vibrations. You move down with roughing finishing roughing finishing
until you reach the bottom.
awwww this is pure awesomness!!
Trick stuff there fellas. What are those parts worth?
How much time before inserts have to be changed? Does the operator stop the machine and change them or what?
The inserts have a set life in minutes the control knows when that time runs out it will quarantine the tool until you change the inserts for lights out machining you can put duplicate tools in the magazine
That is awesome !!!!
I’d hate to be the operator of that machine. Just sitting there for a week waiting for it to finish. So what’s the white stuff between the blades not being machined?
All respect to Inconel. But there's a small group in Europe who are using a new method to fabricate using super alloys.
@DanFrederiksen no we need better materials. both for the tool and especially the workpiece. If fanblades and attachment would withstand higher forces we wouldn't need a blisk in the first place. Not even for a Eurofighter (if I'm not mistaken, that's what the fan there is for.)
What Is the supporting material at 3:50 Wax?
hey levisalo. thats an interesting question. one of the others who watch the video calculated 184h for milling this pece. at 60€ each hours is only the milling time 11000€ worth. than the time the guy needed to programme it and the raw material itself. in my opinion around 25000€ worth this peace!!!!!!! what the hack expensive! uhh
3.57 Why this blisk covered by wax during machining?
To avoid vibrations
you guys really like machines tho.
where's the high speed machining?
it's more about the spindle speed than the process length, because it's such a small endmill they have to run it really fast to be able to cut inconel
I saw something like this before, on Startrek
i believe this is for stabilize the blades
This is why these parts are often cast and then machined instead of being machined out of a solid billet. With the amount of time necessary to machine one of these out of solid Inconel it is not practical to produce in that manner.
What is the dimension of the finished product?
They called it an inconel blisk but the material is titanium....
+azbradcurtis I was watching this thinking there's no way that's Inconel.
+MegaJohnhammond That was a blisk for the compressor section (obviously blade profile of a compressor) of a gas turbine, nobody uses inconel for compressor blading, no need, its titanium for sure.
+mytmousemalibu
in powerhouses they use inconel for the steam turbine.
+mytmousemalibu
use inconel because of its better heat retention capabilities in a powerhouse. heat= energy. wouldn't be good to use a material that loses its heat. to expensive to reheat the steam (thinking of heat loss and retention values)
+matt lewis I would think inconel would be overkill for steam, even super heated steam but my field of knowledge is in aviation. You don't want heat retention in parts like this, you want temperature resilience and temperature rejection is even better, that's why modern gas turbines use air cooled turbine section parts and ceramics and now single crystal blades. Due to the size, blade profile and material, this is got to be a compressor blisk for a small gas turbine engine, probably of size for helicopters, aircraft APU's, maybe for a turbo prop. They absolutely use blisk technology in aircraft gas turbines and other uses these days. They offer some nice advantages over conventional blading in smaller engines.
Guess that blisk is fu***** expensive:)
so what is that compreddor blade for and how long did it take to complete
not sure what comp blade is for... but total time elapsed was
184 hours, 21 minutes...
idk, maybe turbine engine for aircraft(unlikely being one piece, but possible). most likely for steam generator turbine for a power plant. I know the one at abengoa solar, in Hinkley Calif, costed around 20 million... that's just for the turbine, not housing. it was 24 feet long I believe. and weighed about 15 tons.
+matt lewis Blisk's are very common in smaller gas turbine engines these days and that technology is being used more and more and use is expanding.
There MUST be an easier way to make a part like this. Now wonder turbine blades are so expensive.
Roger Onslow inconel is very strong and the machines have to be tough
One rough one finish, yeah. *rolls eyes*
This took 184 hours. Wow!. I think it should be uploaded in 1 hour (or 2) time lapse video. Or is a fast forward compressed video better. Which ever makes the images looks the best. That be neat. :)
Wouldn't that be almost half a million dollars in machining time?
that material is it made of?
beat is dope
making the shape sure, but molded metal parts aren't as strong as those milled from a forged block
Why make a compressor out of inconel? Nickel based alloys are used on turbines but not compressors!!!
@bristotbreton whats that music track name???
Dear God, 93 hours to machine!!!!
Excelente video felicidades
you would cry if the apprentice dropped it.
The wax is to stop chatter (vibration) on the finishing passes
not convinced that it is Inconel
Half a million in machining time? Someone must be printing money with that kind of hourly rate. I know no machine shop which would be able to pull exess of 2000 USD or Euros per hour.
I would estimate that this part would cost around 30 - 40 000 euros to machine. Cost of fixtures and material on top of that.
what's that liquid 1:02 ?
What is the waxy substance?? Häääh.
It is just coolant sticking to the blade walls. Like rain on a wiped window.
Oily rain for sure. No wax.
Casting needs perfect homogenity inside the material. Welding is unuseful as well.
what happens at 4:05?
what no one shot finish/roughing? lol
It would be a production line so the cad and cam was done till refined then ran over and over til perfect then start making one after another and never stop xD
It has to be one part because of ridgidity reasons. Stiffness, exact geometry, one material only etc.
no scrap excepted on that run time lol
it looks very nice but that's way too long for a single piece. we have to make better production techniques
184 hours 21 minutes... that's more than a week
Music ?
this part is about 15 - 20000$ ?!?
most likely did you see how long this took ? i cataloged 90.5 hrs and it seems to have skipped some time possibly up to 10 hours based on the minimum 3.5 hr process so at your typical machine shop rate of $50 to $60/hr we find it cost $6,030 but i doubt its going for that cheep because the cost of the machines life span must be factored in so if that mill cost 1.5 million and it only last 10 years before major repairs then you need 34$ per hour just to pay for itself running 24/7 so 68$ an hour is the cheapest possible plus you gotta pay people to run it say 2 % of that time now we are at about $ 70 per hour at 50% profit not including the cost of the material so $70/hr to get it from a manufacturer = $7,035 now a whole saler or distribution company that sells this stuff tax on 20%(8,442) plus 7% tax and shipping $9,232 but we forgot to add the power bill for 100.5 hours and i do not have those figures but we can assume the pumps and motor on this thing probably pull 3700 watts easy so 12 cents x so thats actually only 44$ so its possibly to assume 50% profit is not the margin and you could easily pay 15,000$ for this based on marketing alone they mark up industrial consumer products big time
I just shipped a titanium blisk the other day. Simular size slightly different shape blades. $55,000. We have machine time down to a month on the 5 axis.
azbradcurtis wow, you are awesome bro
+azbradcurtis I work on the Pratt P1524G for a certain flight test program, you should see the price tag for some of the hardware on that sucker. The fuel control is a work of art, one solid piece that was carved out on a 5-axis, incredible to look at and imagine how long it took to machine.
on this engine, stage 1 on the LP compressor is a one piece design.
great
I could do that quicker manually... with no tool wear and + - 0.000000000001" tolerance. Approximately 2 hours to complete on a Bridgeport Miller. 😆😂🤣😉 this was machining poetry.
Nice music
Same video without that music will just be trash.
wouldn't it be easyer and faster to make a wax model and use the lost wax technique ?
have you americans stopped using old fasioned letter combinations for feedrate and stuff like that ????
speed=n
feedrate=Vf
feed=Fz
number of teeth=Z
cutting speed=Vc
Why do they have awesome shit like this then use low rez video?
Uploaded on Feb 6, 2009
Where the hell did you get this awful noise some call music? yuck..
Hey Chubba, I thought it was okay.
Italian machine...
oil-water mixture, no soap, synthetic
FINISCHING
that better be for a jet engine otherwise that was a waste of 180 hours
obviously.
Turn off the crappy techno and let us hear some tool chatter! That's music to my ears.
@SPUNKKK No. (Oviously) ^_^
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Cool machining, gross music/noise...