The baby BOB will help prevent the mast from sinking deep or turtling but it adds additional leveraged weight to the top of the mast which means you may greatly benefit from the weight of a water righting bag. I would love to see a water righting bag video along with how to properly rig and knot the righting line. The last video in your righting series should be how to properly do it, not just what does not work. That said, I still appreciate your posts on what does not work. It saves solo sailers like me much "school of hard knocks discovery time", and provide us with more fun sailing time. Thank you for your posts!!!
Another great and informative video, thanks! The one time I succeeded in getting my hobie 16 upright single-handedly was with enough wind and a waterbag that was attached to a pully to effectively give me an additional 30 kg of body weight. With my 75 kg, I'd have had zero chance, I presume.
@@JoyriderTV I'm still rebuilding my '85 H16 for sailing this year. I'm hoping that if I capsize, my 109 kg and 6'5" size will be an advantage here. Lol Thanks again for all your helpful videos. What is the loosening of shroud method you mention?
the idea here was that without the float, the top of the mast and sail will be under water creating more resistance so I put the float on to see if not having that resistance will help.
@@porgiesplays6655 Our demonstrator had NO success in his effort to RIGHT the boat with the MHF attached. So your statement regarding the MHF, "it actually helps" is NOT supported by the experiment that we see in the video.
Love the videos you make they have help me a lot being a new hobie 16 owner and new to sailing I’m looking forward to seeing a video with the shroud idea and one thing I was thinking just an idea if the righting line is tide to mast at the boom the leverage being higher up the mast from the Delphine striker might help or choked on the shroud anyway would love to see the next video or hear your thoughts thanks a keep up the killer videos I’m going to order a shirt from you
Thanks. Good to hear from you. What I think is that because where the pull is coming from is always going to be from the hull that is in the air, you are effectively pulling the mast from the shroud which is pulling from the top third of the mast. So, in my opinion, changing where the line is tied won't make any difference.
I had to go back and watch it again after my capsizing last weekend. Just to remind myself to not be too bummed. I'm a little lighter than you, even with a bag and high wind I failed to do it. Need to practice more.
It's tough in light winds. The 16 rig is just too heavy. The bag certainly helps but you need a total of something like 120 kg to pulpit up in zero wind.
Nice test, I'm surprised, thought it would be easy to upright with the baby bob attached. The baby bob is advertised to keep the boat from turtling, especially in windy conditions. Turtling is no fun on a catamaran, happen to me once, took 3-4 people, a ski boat and 30 minutes later to upright.
Recently turtle capsized my Minicat 420 in Hong Kong. First time that happened to me. Took quite an effort getting the mast above the water but with my 75kg I managed it (my son was/is too young to help). Had the cat mast into the wind about 1 meter above the water expecting the wind to help me push the final part. Didn't happen. Same like Bennett here couldn't make the final push. After some time a kayak-dude came to the rescue. He helped pull the rope which quickly resolved the problem. My thoughts: One of the biggest challenges, while by myself, while in turtle position, was not getting the cat mast above the water. I could do it. But failing to get the cat upright meant I had to take a rest and the cat would go back to turtle position. Really exhausting. For that reason alone a mast head float is absolutely necessary. Secondly; I want to try & buy abseil mechanical grips allowing me to have a better grip and push up gradually while hanging close above the water (in the process of getting the cat upright). Will that do the trick? Thirdly; I wonder if with stronger wind the cat will upright itself (obviously need to position it well). In the meantime still checking UA-cams to see if there is another solution. I saw some images that a foldable stairs (to be hung from the upper hull) could do the trick. On paper it seems a good solution. Any comments?
Maybe it's the shorter mast on the Minicat that means that it will invert quickly so i think that adding floatation to the top is a very good idea. The ideal is to have the bows of the boat pointing into the wind so that the wind helps to unstick the sail from the water and will then help you. I never heard of the use of abseiling gear for this purpose. I either hook the righting line into the trapeze hook or if i don't have a harness, I pass the righting line around my buttocks and then hold both ends of the rope which takes a lot of the strain. Yes, in strong wind the boat will right itself - you have to make sure that you're holding on so that it doesn't get away from you. I hope that helps. Cheers
Even a large catamaran can have the equipment aboard to right it, but for a small one, a "righting pole" seems to be the solution to add to your leverage.
Ive seen a few of your righting video's. I owned a Prindle 16. It is comfortable to attacht the line to hte trapeze buckle but actually that is quite limiting in regard to putting weight to it. Although not comfortable it would seem raising the attachment point on your body would defenitly help. Say armpit height...
Did you have custom Bob brackets made up? As far as can see elsewhere, you normally have to drill and tap four holes in the head pulley casing. I’m not sure if you need to remove the float when trailering, but if you do, your single bolt method would be the way to go.
@@JoyriderTV If you could find a link, that would be great. I've searched for hours on sites from Europe, America and Australasia, but have only found the four-bolt version.
Have you try'd tying the righting line to the top of the mast? (normally via the shroud line) I have not been sailing to try it but it is how my dad would right it when he was out solo and flipped.
Thorgon Cross this does not change the righting moment, as the system as a whole still needs to support your mass at the same distance from the pivot. One would likely bend the topmast if persistent enough. I am afraid there is no way of avoiding a water bag.
Yes your mass relative to the pivot point is the same, changing it is not the point. The point is to lift the mast up slightly, i am not a mechanical engineer to know if it really would. As for bending the mast...no, never. I left my mast tad to close to the road once and someone turning around went off the road and on to the middle of my mast with his 3 ton truck. The mast bent only a few degrees but not to the ground, those masts can handle insane amounts. Thankfully the guy was very nice and went out of his way to replace it. Over all i agree no way around needing a water bag to solo right it.
How about lengthening the righting rope and adding a short pole with a ‘Y’ at one end . That way your weight is acting through a longer lever . I’m coming out to you guys next September. I’ll try it then !
Great video again Joseph! But come on man, just one more swim. LOL This time with a righting bag. I've always been reluctant to try the shroud extenders. My concern is that if the line securing the mast base to the dolphin striker isn't tight enough (so tight that it stops the mast from freely rotating during normal sailing), the mast could pop out of the base. Either that or doing the shroud back up might be a challenge in strong wind.
that would be my feeling too, although people with experience with them say that they haven't had a problem. I'll get hold of a bag for next season and finally get some closure on this subject!
Could you put the uprighting line from top (=the hull) behind and along your back, and the frontwards again between your legs and then keep the line in your hands - you should win some 80cm longer lever in comparison to trapeze hook - possible?
you fit some either special chainplates or a piece of extension wires to the base of the shrouds - when you capsize you pull a pin from the top shroud which lengthens it allowing the top hull to come more over adding the weight of the hull to the righting .
A strange sight indeed is to come across a capsized sailboat in zero wind...I do appreciate the effort you took in trying to prove a couple of points though. Theoretically speaking however, the element that capsizes you is the very thing that would help you correct the situation. My question is, does lowering the sail negate the benefits of the wind in helping you correct the situation? Someone else might be able to weigh in their experiences here. Just curious....what are the weather conditions in the winter over there in Greece?
In the winter, if the sun is out it can still be quite hot - definitely shorts weather up until new year, then colder and with more chance of rain January February. Not much wind around here though unless we are subject to a storm from the south.
I'm sorry to say that it's happened to me...A big gust, which took me by surprise and then no wind at all...Unable to right the Hobie 16 without someone lifting the mast-tip out of the water...(I have a Bob). On another occasion, I capsized in calm water for practice...Even with a righting bag and a righting pole, I was unable to right it. In strong wind conditions, it's a different story...The challenge there is in making sure that the boat doesn't flip right back over on the other side...Holding on to the Dolphin Striker for dear life, as the boat comes back up, seems to do the trick...Great video...Thanks!
For any, and I do mean, ANY-sized masted boat or ship, it can be righted given the right on-board equipment. Think of the leverage. Let's say the boat displaces 12,000 pounds. Of that, let's say 1000 is the mast and its attached items. If it is on (worst case possible) a catamaran, that means the head of the mast needs not only to float the weight of the 1000 pounds/2 (boat supports other half,) but the amount of mass and weight supported due to the center of mass most likely having shifted to being biased towards the mast, not the keel due to past-vertical orientation of the normally horizontal plane of the boat itself. This is why the catamaran is a worst-case scenario. Now, to right your cruising cat, imagine with me. You have to firstly get the mast up to the point of it being horizontal, JUST for starters. This requires it being around 12 feet off of the water surface. Now, hopefully the boat has its center of mass more towards the keel than the center of buoyancy of the water-side hull by now. But what if it doesn't? Then, you need a provision for raising the mast, jacking it up, from 12 feet high off of the water to the point where the center of mass is further toward the keel than is the center of buoyancy. Using your dinghy, as befits a cruising catamaran, you need a lightweight, relatively stable jack or elevation device to lift with at LEAST 500 pounds of force on the very top of the mast. Using such a device, it will be easy to jack the top of the mast upward until the tipping point has literally been reached. If you have designed your hulls (not likely, but...) to allow them to be fully filled with water, you can also flood the water-side hull to reduce the height of the mast's formerly-vertical axis to the water. The POINT of the exercise is to simply raise the mast's center of mass so it is once again vertically past the vertical plane of the center of buoyancy of the boat itself, at which point gravity will right the boat. Some sample math: If the center of mass of the entire boat is, for example, two feet below the horizontal plane usually connecting the tops of both hulls, centered on the mast, and the boat is 60 feet tall at top of mast relative to said plane, then you must find how high the mast has to be to reach a tipping point. For the sake of simplicity, the mast is up at horizontal, jacked up off the water 12 feet. This means you have 11,000 pounds of mass bearing down on floatation of the water-side hull. The mast at 60 feet tall and 1000 pounds of weight, is, for simplicity, holding 1000 pounds around 30 feet horizontally from the deck plane. This means half is supported by the deck end and half by the jacked-up end supported by the dinghy, but now you have a pair of triangles. Now, assuming the center of buoyancy is 3 feet below the deck plane in normal orientation, how much angle is required to get your center of mass, which is 2 feet below the deck plane, above the center of buoyancy of the water-side hull? We will assume the center of buoyancy is centered in the six-foot-tall hull and six-foot-wide hull. This means that the triangle for the mass versus buoyancy has a one-foot-wide bottom and a 9-foot-tall vertical side. How much angle must we apply to get the center of mass to shift one foot further toward the opposite side of the center of buoyancy? Answer: not much. About 6.37 degrees, or only about 3 feet, four inches above horizontal. For reference, however, one can experiment with one's empty hull before adding anything one doesn't want to get wet. As always, the lower the center of mass, the better. But, by raising the top of the mast a mere fifteen feet in the air, in this case, it will be enough to right the boat. A means of doing so using a lightweight carbon fiber jack pole could be included as part of the boat's emergency stores on the rear of boat. One could use the actions of the waves to "ratchet" the pole higher without having to apply all 500 pounds of force. In FACT, the pole could be attached near top of mast, permanently, and could be unlimbered and used when/if needed. It only takes around 60 gallons of air volume to provide the needed 500 pounds of force. Yes, even a large catamaran can be righted, even in rough seas, with equipment one can carry on board.
That’s why I’m going with the wave as it doesn’t have the frame on top of the floats,the waves fulcrum is down close to the water with the frame through the floats. Of course the two boats are tangerines and oranges but I won’t have to find a mate when I want to get out
I thought the line to haul it right side up, should go all the way to top of meat not where you have it tied around the other pontoon. ? I'm probably wrong, but that never stopped me before. Lol
Having done a lot of testing, and thinking about it, it doesn't make any difference where the line is attached - like it is here the line pulls the top shroud which pulls the mast.
I am new to sailing but it seems if that device on the top of the mask could inflate into a bag it would push the mask up. If there is not one maybe I should design one. It seems a bag that would inflate would do the job.
@@JoyriderTV I would not hold your breath on that. Lol. It just seems from watching so many videos that a better way has not been invented. So Greece is where your filming these videos? It looks beautiful. Take care
I dont know if I miss any video... but the real deal would be to try it alone,but with some wind 10-15knots! No one will capsize with no wind, eventhough sailing alone.
Couldn't you just grab the righting line and swim to the mast and push it up into the air, and if it does right then u have the righting line so the boat does not sail away from you?
It's a great idea but sadly when you try to lift the top of the mast you just get pushed underwater by the weight. The bag method, shown in a later video, I think is the solution.
What about bolt in mast step and putting down the mast at closer angle to trampoline just imagination here ,no try. Option 2 little bit od water in to hull to get the angle, Option 3 , carry like an ladder , under trampoline ... funny but might wotk. and the last one , self inflatableX on top of mast
I like it. 1" yes, that would work well, I'll look at trying that this summer 2- I wouldn't think so - difficult to do and then you'd have water in your hull for the rest of the session 3- Maybe to get back on 4- yes - if it was big enough, that could really help
Hello Joseph, as I have told you, to back upright the Hobie 16 without a water bag worked in low wind with lowered sail. Luckily I did not have that ugly torpedo on the mast! I think that weighs about 800 grams. On the mast length you then have to muster about 8 kg more weight to raise the boat. But i´f had 4 Beaufort wind! That helps a lot! I´f used a piece of extension wires to the base of the shrouds - when I capsize, another time. But you have to secure the mast with a piece of rope at the beam. Otherwise you could go like me and the mast jumps out of the mast pan! That's not funny. Best regards Olli
But how could you flip over a 16 with no wind lol. I always relied on wind to flip mine back upright. Never even had a righting line, I’d just swim the mast straight upwind and use the main halyard as a righting line... let the wind do the work.
Don't say it does'nt work.... cuz if you where a bit taller and a bit heavier that would move your center of gravity further away from the boat and bring it upright.
I think I said that with my dimensions it didn't work. Agreed with a taller person having more righting moment, having tested pretty extensively it's 120 kg that is required to bring the boat upright.
@@JoyriderTV love your videos by the way, I'm a long time windsurfer but after my deployment in Afghanistan my back is not that good for windsurfing anymore and now I'm considering Hobie cats, so you just help me with your videos to make out my mind on what Hobie to get in the future, the 16 is definitely my type since I want to take my 2 young boys out sometimes but also fly like an arrow when by myself (I had windsurf for hours on 18 miles/h wind using a formula board and an 11.5 sail.... So yes... I'm all for the overpowered conditions)
@@JoyriderTV unrelated to this, I left a comment on your q&a yesterday about foot straps. I spent yesterday trying to find pic's of our hobie 16 from the 70's to no avail. Their around but who knows where. We had 5 ropes on the rail and one on the back of the hull. 1/2" holes about 6" apart for each 1/2" rope to go through and be knotted on the back side. With a rubber sheath covering the foot section. May have to experiment with outer loop length for ease of foot placement and comfort when locked in. Back then in our club there was about 18 Hobie 16's racing every weekend on Rondeau Bay in southern Ontario Canada. The bay was about a mile by six miles with constant great winds. Needless to say, at 200+ kg pop's and I would flounder on light day's and mop up on heavy day's. Really was world class competition as we had a couple that had metalled in world's in both 14 and 16. Just put that in so you would understand where I was coming from, that group was together for over 10 years. Point being, those straps allow you to get out back in a reach etc and have great control with less energy and no fear of loss of footing. Same affect as straps, no straps on a windsurfer. You may even be able to attach windsurf straps instead of rope. Didn't have them back then. The thing about being locked in, you could crank the rudders hard to counteract huge hits from gusts without fear of being tossed. Although you probably don't earn your racing stripes until you pitch pole a 100 times lol. Perhaps to get one on the back of the hull about 6 inches fro the back end. You'll probably have to get a metal tube underneath the U trough, or the like with holes through it to support the fiberglass. I remember an epic day when me and buddy the aforementioned world class racer were sitting on shore with a 50 mph wind with huge gusts and didn't want to take a chance with our boat's that had 10 pop cans installed to tighten the hull etc. A newbie shows up and says want to go out on his 3 week old boat? Sign me up!!!!! Riefed the main and 3 of us went out. Like flies on shit paper in a wind storm we went. Wiped it probably 20 times in 4 hours. Ripped all the grommets in the main, but it was a ride to remember. I still get goosebumps to this day! Shit's and giggles to the extreme! I'll keep looking for pic's of the rig, and send them to ya. Great to see your channel, brought back them day's for sure. Back then I was windsurfing, motocross racing also. The hobie was the quiet surean ride lol!
@@JoyriderTV hahaha the point is, in this wind conditions you will never capsize boat by accident, actually you just don't sail without wind. so this test is useless.....
@@edwood9321 The point of this test was to see how much weight is needed to bring the boat upright with zero wind - knowing that as you add wind you require less weight. Kind of like a control experiment.
you sould call someone to help you or you can take the boat apart that sould work. Come on now,this bud for the new hobie funs, DON'T LISTEN TO HIM IS NOTHING LIKE IT.IT IS ALOT EASIER THAN THAT.
The baby BOB will help prevent the mast from sinking deep or turtling but it adds additional leveraged weight to the top of the mast which means you may greatly benefit from the weight of a water righting bag. I would love to see a water righting bag video along with how to properly rig and knot the righting line. The last video in your righting series should be how to properly do it, not just what does not work. That said, I still appreciate your posts on what does not work. It saves solo sailers like me much "school of hard knocks discovery time", and provide us with more fun sailing time. Thank you for your posts!!!
Hi James, did you see this one: ua-cam.com/video/1UyUZOP94-8/v-deo.html
I feel that this gives closure to the subject.
Still the most precious tests for us before sailing. Thanks !!!
Another great and informative video, thanks! The one time I succeeded in getting my hobie 16 upright single-handedly was with enough wind and a waterbag that was attached to a pully to effectively give me an additional 30 kg of body weight. With my 75 kg, I'd have had zero chance, I presume.
In Zero wind I found that you need 120 kg. As the wind increases you need less weight.
@@JoyriderTV I'm still rebuilding my '85 H16 for sailing this year. I'm hoping that if I capsize, my 109 kg and 6'5" size will be an advantage here. Lol Thanks again for all your helpful videos. What is the loosening of shroud method you mention?
@@robertosgood961 nice. I think it sounds like you should be fine bringing you 16 back upright with that amount of leverage!
I'm from libya .. i saw your videos and i found them very useful .. keep going ^_^
I thing the head float is just so it doesn’t turtle completely not help get it up
the idea here was that without the float, the top of the mast and sail will be under water creating more resistance so I put the float on to see if not having that resistance will help.
Ye i know I’m just saying for other people to tell them that with the float the mast won’t go under but without it it will
Yup, just to stop turtling
it actually helps righting the boat because less of the sail will get full of water
@@porgiesplays6655 Our demonstrator had NO success in his effort to RIGHT the boat with the MHF attached. So your statement regarding the MHF, "it actually helps" is NOT supported by the experiment that we see in the video.
Love the videos you make they have help me a lot being a new hobie 16 owner and new to sailing I’m looking forward to seeing a video with the shroud idea and one thing I was thinking just an idea if the righting line is tide to mast at the boom the leverage being higher up the mast from the Delphine striker might help or choked on the shroud anyway would love to see the next video or hear your thoughts thanks a keep up the killer videos I’m going to order a shirt from you
Thanks. Good to hear from you.
What I think is that because where the pull is coming from is always going to be from the hull that is in the air, you are effectively pulling the mast from the shroud which is pulling from the top third of the mast. So, in my opinion, changing where the line is tied won't make any difference.
Thank you for videoing your experiment!
My pleasure!
I had to go back and watch it again after my capsizing last weekend. Just to remind myself to not be too bummed. I'm a little lighter than you, even with a bag and high wind I failed to do it. Need to practice more.
It's tough in light winds. The 16 rig is just too heavy. The bag certainly helps but you need a total of something like 120 kg to pulpit up in zero wind.
@@JoyriderTV I went out today and for the first time I successfully righted the boat! guided by your video :) thanks for all the content!
Loved your video. I tried it numerous times myself and was not succesful. I am glad to know it was not me.
Nice test,
I'm surprised, thought it would be easy to upright with the baby bob attached.
The baby bob is advertised to keep the boat from turtling, especially in windy conditions.
Turtling is no fun on a catamaran, happen to me once, took 3-4 people, a ski boat and 30 minutes later to upright.
Thank you joe
Very welcome, i'm glad that it was helpful
Recently turtle capsized my Minicat 420 in Hong Kong. First time that happened to me.
Took quite an effort getting the mast above the water but with my 75kg I managed it (my son was/is too young to help).
Had the cat mast into the wind about 1 meter above the water expecting the wind to help me push the final part.
Didn't happen. Same like Bennett here couldn't make the final push.
After some time a kayak-dude came to the rescue. He helped pull the rope which quickly resolved the problem.
My thoughts:
One of the biggest challenges, while by myself, while in turtle position, was not getting the cat mast above the water. I could do it. But failing to get the cat upright meant I had to take a rest and the cat would go back to turtle position. Really exhausting. For that reason alone a mast head float is absolutely necessary.
Secondly; I want to try & buy abseil mechanical grips allowing me to have a better grip and push up gradually while hanging close above the water (in the process of getting the cat upright). Will that do the trick?
Thirdly; I wonder if with stronger wind the cat will upright itself (obviously need to position it well).
In the meantime still checking UA-cams to see if there is another solution. I saw some images that a foldable stairs (to be hung from the upper hull) could do the trick. On paper it seems a good solution. Any comments?
Maybe it's the shorter mast on the Minicat that means that it will invert quickly so i think that adding floatation to the top is a very good idea.
The ideal is to have the bows of the boat pointing into the wind so that the wind helps to unstick the sail from the water and will then help you.
I never heard of the use of abseiling gear for this purpose. I either hook the righting line into the trapeze hook or if i don't have a harness, I pass the righting line around my buttocks and then hold both ends of the rope which takes a lot of the strain.
Yes, in strong wind the boat will right itself - you have to make sure that you're holding on so that it doesn't get away from you.
I hope that helps. Cheers
Even a large catamaran can have the equipment aboard to right it, but for a small one, a "righting pole" seems to be the solution to add to your leverage.
Ive seen a few of your righting video's. I owned a Prindle 16. It is comfortable to attacht the line to hte trapeze buckle but actually that is quite limiting in regard to putting weight to it. Although not comfortable it would seem raising the attachment point on your body would defenitly help. Say armpit height...
So two people or a water bag. Got it.
Looking forward to seeing you do that in 10 to 15 knots of wind.
Yes, having never used the bag i'm interested to see how that's going to work out.
Did you have custom Bob brackets made up? As far as can see elsewhere, you normally have to drill and tap four holes in the head pulley casing. I’m not sure if you need to remove the float when trailering, but if you do, your single bolt method would be the way to go.
It's the standard Hobie mast float - just a single bolt through the hole in the top of the mast.
@@JoyriderTV If you could find a link, that would be great. I've searched for hours on sites from Europe, America and Australasia, but have only found the four-bolt version.
Have you try'd tying the righting line to the top of the mast? (normally via the shroud line) I have not been sailing to try it but it is how my dad would right it when he was out solo and flipped.
Thorgon Cross this does not change the righting moment, as the system as a whole still needs to support your mass at the same distance from the pivot. One would likely bend the topmast if persistent enough.
I am afraid there is no way of avoiding a water bag.
I agree with Pawel, i don't see how that would help.
Yes your mass relative to the pivot point is the same, changing it is not the point. The point is to lift the mast up slightly, i am not a mechanical engineer to know if it really would. As for bending the mast...no, never. I left my mast tad to close to the road once and someone turning around went off the road and on to the middle of my mast with his 3 ton truck. The mast bent only a few degrees but not to the ground, those masts can handle insane amounts. Thankfully the guy was very nice and went out of his way to replace it. Over all i agree no way around needing a water bag to solo right it.
How about lengthening the righting rope and adding a short pole with a ‘Y’ at one end . That way your weight is acting through a longer lever .
I’m coming out to you guys next September. I’ll try it then !
I look forward to seeing you then!
On Supercats , we have a shroud adjuster that you can release tension , which gives you an advantage in a righting event. Maybe give these a try..
It's on the list.
Thanks
Great video again Joseph! But come on man, just one more swim. LOL This time with a righting bag.
I've always been reluctant to try the shroud extenders. My concern is that if the line securing the mast base to the dolphin striker isn't tight enough (so tight that it stops the mast from freely rotating during normal sailing), the mast could pop out of the base. Either that or doing the shroud back up might be a challenge in strong wind.
that would be my feeling too, although people with experience with them say that they haven't had a problem.
I'll get hold of a bag for next season and finally get some closure on this subject!
Could you put the uprighting line from top (=the hull) behind and along your back, and the frontwards again between your legs and then keep the line in your hands - you should win some 80cm longer lever in comparison to trapeze hook - possible?
Hmmmmm interesting.
I don't know if you saw this, we did some testing:
ua-cam.com/video/oHIcLc7pssc/v-deo.html
I have a line i attache to the trapez on the opside and than i to what you are doing. This works in evrey conditions
there is mama bob as well think it might be easier to right if that one is used?
not sure, further testing is required.
@@JoyriderTV oki
So a video with a bag of water next time then?
yes, but it'll have to wait until next year now.
What is the ‘shroud loosening technique ‘?
you fit some either special chainplates or a piece of extension wires to the base of the shrouds - when you capsize you pull a pin from the top shroud which lengthens it allowing the top hull to come more over adding the weight of the hull to the righting .
Many years ago we used a shroud extender. Worked great.
A strange sight indeed is to come across a capsized sailboat in zero wind...I do appreciate the effort you took in trying to prove a couple of points though. Theoretically speaking however, the element that capsizes you is the very thing that would help you correct the situation. My question is, does lowering the sail negate the benefits of the wind in helping you correct the situation? Someone else might be able to weigh in their experiences here.
Just curious....what are the weather conditions in the winter over there in Greece?
In the winter, if the sun is out it can still be quite hot - definitely shorts weather up until new year, then colder and with more chance of rain January February. Not much wind around here though unless we are subject to a storm from the south.
I'm sorry to say that it's happened to me...A big gust, which took me by surprise and then no wind at all...Unable to right the Hobie 16 without someone lifting the mast-tip out of the water...(I have a Bob). On another occasion, I capsized in calm water for practice...Even with a righting bag and a righting pole, I was unable to right it.
In strong wind conditions, it's a different story...The challenge there is in making sure that the boat doesn't flip right back over on the other side...Holding on to the Dolphin Striker for dear life, as the boat comes back up, seems to do the trick...Great video...Thanks!
For any, and I do mean, ANY-sized masted boat or ship, it can be righted given the right on-board equipment.
Think of the leverage. Let's say the boat displaces 12,000 pounds. Of that, let's say 1000 is the mast and its attached items. If it is on (worst case possible) a catamaran, that means the head of the mast needs not only to float the weight of the 1000 pounds/2 (boat supports other half,) but the amount of mass and weight supported due to the center of mass most likely having shifted to being biased towards the mast, not the keel due to past-vertical orientation of the normally horizontal plane of the boat itself. This is why the catamaran is a worst-case scenario.
Now, to right your cruising cat, imagine with me. You have to firstly get the mast up to the point of it being horizontal, JUST for starters. This requires it being around 12 feet off of the water surface.
Now, hopefully the boat has its center of mass more towards the keel than the center of buoyancy of the water-side hull by now.
But what if it doesn't?
Then, you need a provision for raising the mast, jacking it up, from 12 feet high off of the water to the point where the center of mass is further toward the keel than is the center of buoyancy.
Using your dinghy, as befits a cruising catamaran, you need a lightweight, relatively stable jack or elevation device to lift with at LEAST 500 pounds of force on the very top of the mast.
Using such a device, it will be easy to jack the top of the mast upward until the tipping point has literally been reached. If you have designed your hulls (not likely, but...) to allow them to be fully filled with water, you can also flood the water-side hull to reduce the height of the mast's formerly-vertical axis to the water.
The POINT of the exercise is to simply raise the mast's center of mass so it is once again vertically past the vertical plane of the center of buoyancy of the boat itself, at which point gravity will right the boat.
Some sample math: If the center of mass of the entire boat is, for example, two feet below the horizontal plane usually connecting the tops of both hulls, centered on the mast, and the boat is 60 feet tall at top of mast relative to said plane, then you must find how high the mast has to be to reach a tipping point.
For the sake of simplicity, the mast is up at horizontal, jacked up off the water 12 feet. This means you have 11,000 pounds of mass bearing down on floatation of the water-side hull.
The mast at 60 feet tall and 1000 pounds of weight, is, for simplicity, holding 1000 pounds around 30 feet horizontally from the deck plane.
This means half is supported by the deck end and half by the jacked-up end supported by the dinghy, but now you have a pair of triangles. Now, assuming the center of buoyancy is 3 feet below the deck plane in normal orientation, how much angle is required to get your center of mass, which is 2 feet below the deck plane, above the center of buoyancy of the water-side hull?
We will assume the center of buoyancy is centered in the six-foot-tall hull and six-foot-wide hull. This means that the triangle for the mass versus buoyancy has a one-foot-wide bottom and a 9-foot-tall vertical side. How much angle must we apply to get the center of mass to shift one foot further toward the opposite side of the center of buoyancy?
Answer: not much. About 6.37 degrees, or only about 3 feet, four inches above horizontal.
For reference, however, one can experiment with one's empty hull before adding anything one doesn't want to get wet.
As always, the lower the center of mass, the better.
But, by raising the top of the mast a mere fifteen feet in the air, in this case, it will be enough to right the boat.
A means of doing so using a lightweight carbon fiber jack pole could be included as part of the boat's emergency stores on the rear of boat. One could use the actions of the waves to "ratchet" the pole higher without having to apply all 500 pounds of force.
In FACT, the pole could be attached near top of mast, permanently, and could be unlimbered and used when/if needed. It only takes around 60 gallons of air volume to provide the needed 500 pounds of force.
Yes, even a large catamaran can be righted, even in rough seas, with equipment one can carry on board.
Thanks very much for that explanation. This is great to hear the numbers behind how it is possible to bring the cat back upright.
Cheers!!!
That’s why I’m going with the wave as it doesn’t have the frame on top of the floats,the waves fulcrum is down close to the water with the frame through the floats. Of course the two boats are tangerines and oranges but I won’t have to find a mate when I want to get out
The rig on the Wave is of course much lighter as well so it'll be as easy to right as a Laser!
Use the boom as leverage?
The bag is my favourite solution
I thought the line to haul it right side up, should go all the way to top of meat not where you have it tied around the other pontoon. ? I'm probably wrong, but that never stopped me before. Lol
Having done a lot of testing, and thinking about it, it doesn't make any difference where the line is attached - like it is here the line pulls the top shroud which pulls the mast.
deberias probar la tecnica de la bolsa estanca lastrada con agua para aumentar el peso a la hora de desvolcar el hobbie. Me gustan tus videos.
Yes, this technique works very well!
I am new to sailing but it seems if that device on the top of the mask could inflate into a bag it would push the mask up. If there is not one maybe I should design one. It seems a bag that would inflate would do the job.
When you've designed and built one, come to Greece so that we can test it!
@@JoyriderTV I would not hold your breath on that. Lol. It just seems from watching so many videos that a better way has not been invented. So Greece is where your filming these videos? It looks beautiful. Take care
I was under the impression that a mast head float was to stop the boat from turtleing
Yes, this video was in response to many viewers asking if having the float would make it easier to bring the boat up from this position.
Wow that’s worrying if you own one of those. I hope my Minicat Guppy comes up more easily
It's the most difficult when there's no wind at all.
The minicar should come back up with very little effort
I dont know if I miss any video... but the real deal would be to try it alone,but with some wind 10-15knots! No one will capsize with no wind, eventhough sailing alone.
you are of course quite right - for a real test there would need to be enough wind to capsize in!
It looks like i'm swimming again next year.
@@JoyriderTV lol you rock! Love your videos! Regards from Barcelona, Spain!
Hey Joe i guess you lost weight in Italy,haha.What is unusual in the home of Pizza and Pasta😂
Sorten the mast 2m? And the boom.
Then maybe. Or take the 14 you are singel .
What if you go aft.
All fine suggestions!
Couldn't you just grab the righting line and swim to the mast and push it up into the air, and if it does right then u have the righting line so the boat does not sail away from you?
It's a great idea but sadly when you try to lift the top of the mast you just get pushed underwater by the weight.
The bag method, shown in a later video, I think is the solution.
@@JoyriderTV ok but if u have a crew you could definitely do it
@@porgiesplays6655 I think about 120kg is enough
always go out with a mate, use a Bob and angle 45 into the wind, make sure your boat has weather helm!.. We sail the Atlantic she is not forgiving...
Great tips. Thanks
What about bolt in mast step and putting down the mast at closer angle to trampoline just imagination here ,no try.
Option 2 little bit od water in to hull to get the angle,
Option 3 , carry like an ladder , under trampoline ... funny but might wotk.
and the last one , self inflatableX on top of mast
I like it.
1" yes, that would work well, I'll look at trying that this summer
2- I wouldn't think so - difficult to do and then you'd have water in your hull for the rest of the session
3- Maybe to get back on
4- yes - if it was big enough, that could really help
to right it you need wind to lift you up.
no way you capsize with no wind.
I have seen people knocked flat in a squall then have the wind drop to zero..so strange bursts could cause this nightmare 🤪
My takeaway from this is that I should drink more beer so I’ll have more weight to right the boat.
That's the best way!!
It is used to stop from turtling
A very useful item to have!
By the time I would do all this stuff I would be 20 miles downwind either in open sea or on some rocks
Yes, if there was wind that would certainly be a concern.
Если катаешь в одиночку и приходиться ставить на киль, поможет рюкзак, заполняемый водой для утяжеления тушки.
Да, я собираюсь рассмотреть использование сумки, наполненной водой летом.
Hello Joseph,
as I have told you, to back upright the Hobie 16 without a water bag worked in low wind with lowered sail. Luckily I did not have that ugly torpedo on the mast! I think that weighs about 800 grams. On the mast length you then have to muster about 8 kg more weight to raise the boat. But i´f had 4 Beaufort wind! That helps a lot!
I´f used a piece of extension wires to the base of the shrouds - when I capsize, another time.
But you have to secure the mast with a piece of rope at the beam. Otherwise you could go like me and the mast jumps out of the mast pan! That's not funny.
Best regards Olli
Thanks Olli!
But how could you flip over a 16 with no wind lol. I always relied on wind to flip mine back upright. Never even had a righting line, I’d just swim the mast straight upwind and use the main halyard as a righting line... let the wind do the work.
I turned it over deliberately in zero wind as that was the best control test. Of course adding wind will make it easier.
it seemed to fill with water and the angle you were at would not work
For sure. That was definitely not budging!
Don't say it does'nt work.... cuz if you where a bit taller and a bit heavier that would move your center of gravity further away from the boat and bring it upright.
I think I said that with my dimensions it didn't work. Agreed with a taller person having more righting moment, having tested pretty extensively it's 120 kg that is required to bring the boat upright.
@@JoyriderTV love your videos by the way, I'm a long time windsurfer but after my deployment in Afghanistan my back is not that good for windsurfing anymore and now I'm considering Hobie cats, so you just help me with your videos to make out my mind on what Hobie to get in the future, the 16 is definitely my type since I want to take my 2 young boys out sometimes but also fly like an arrow when by myself (I had windsurf for hours on 18 miles/h wind using a formula board and an 11.5 sail.... So yes... I'm all for the overpowered conditions)
5 gallon collapsible jug over the shoulder for solo no wind lad, maybe that's an old trick from 50 years ago. ;>)
Nice, I use a 50 L bag in a similar way possibly more convenient than the jug for storage purposes check out the video
@@JoyriderTV unrelated to this, I left a comment on your q&a yesterday about foot straps. I spent yesterday trying to find pic's of our hobie 16 from the 70's to no avail. Their around but who knows where.
We had 5 ropes on the rail and one on the back of the hull. 1/2" holes about 6" apart for each 1/2" rope to go through and be knotted on the back side. With a rubber sheath covering the foot section. May have to experiment with outer loop length for ease of foot placement and comfort when locked in.
Back then in our club there was about 18 Hobie 16's racing every weekend on Rondeau Bay in southern Ontario Canada. The bay was about a mile by six miles with constant great winds.
Needless to say, at 200+ kg pop's and I would flounder on light day's and mop up on heavy day's. Really was world class competition as we had a couple that had metalled in world's in both 14 and 16.
Just put that in so you would understand where I was coming from, that group was together for over 10 years.
Point being, those straps allow you to get out back in a reach etc and have great control with less energy and no fear of loss of footing. Same affect as straps, no straps on a windsurfer. You may even be able to attach windsurf straps instead of rope. Didn't have them back then.
The thing about being locked in, you could crank the rudders hard to counteract huge hits from gusts without fear of being tossed. Although you probably don't earn your racing stripes until you pitch pole a 100 times lol.
Perhaps to get one on the back of the hull about 6 inches fro the back end. You'll probably have to get a metal tube underneath the U trough, or the like with holes through it to support the fiberglass.
I remember an epic day when me and buddy the aforementioned world class racer were sitting on shore with a 50 mph wind with huge gusts and didn't want to take a chance with our boat's that had 10 pop cans installed to tighten the hull etc. A newbie shows up and says want to go out on his 3 week old boat? Sign me up!!!!! Riefed the main and 3 of us went out. Like flies on shit paper in a wind storm we went. Wiped it probably 20 times in 4 hours. Ripped all the grommets in the main, but it was a ride to remember. I still get goosebumps to this day! Shit's and giggles to the extreme!
I'll keep looking for pic's of the rig, and send them to ya. Great to see your channel, brought back them day's for sure. Back then I was windsurfing, motocross racing also. The hobie was the quiet surean ride lol!
I'm going to assume it's not much difference EDIT I was right. It might be helpful in osmeine situations but generally speaking it doesn't help much
yes, in this situation it doesn't help. Hit adds weight to the top.
ok genius, now tell us all how to capsize boat....with no wind
If you walk to the back of the hull hand onto the trapeze and there she goes!
@@JoyriderTV hahaha the point is, in this wind conditions you will never capsize boat by accident, actually you just don't sail without wind. so this test is useless.....
@@edwood9321 The point of this test was to see how much weight is needed to bring the boat upright with zero wind - knowing that as you add wind you require less weight.
Kind of like a control experiment.
This was the most frustrating video to watch.
It was even more frustrating to make!
@@JoyriderTV I really felt for ya man! :)
Eat more chocolate;)
more saganaki cheese!
This was so frustrating to watch
Even more frustrating to make! I knew it wasn't going to work but the audience demanded that i tried.
@@JoyriderTV I believe you but your content is great, thank you for making these and the trick with the water bag is a good one (:
you sould call someone to help you or you can take the boat apart that sould work.
Come on now,this bud for the new hobie funs,
DON'T LISTEN TO HIM IS NOTHING LIKE IT.IT IS ALOT EASIER THAN THAT.