Hey Everyone - Links to creators I mentioned are in the description and my works cited can be found here: www.patreon.com/posts/54867822 (also I feel like I need to say this because I'm slightly paranoid) - While I'm not a fan of the 2019 Little Women (for a variety of reasons, one of them being that the 1994 version is just my favorite movie of all time, so it's just like...not the same.) I really adored Anne with an E, even though I was frustrated by how they portrayed Ms. Stacy. They did a lot of wonderful things in the series (Aunt Jo 👑). Also, if you ever want me to cry on cue, just get me talking about Matthew (from either Anne with an E or Anne of Green Gables. My heart. I CANNOT 😭)
just a reminder from the book Anne of Green Gables “Anne took the dress and looked at it in reverent silence. Oh, how pretty it was - a lovely soft brown gloria with all the gloss of silk; a skirt with dainty frills and shirrings; a waist elaborately pintucked in the most fashionable way, with a little ruffle of flimsy lace at the neck. But the sleeves - they were the crowning glory! Long elbow cuffs, and above them two beautiful puffs divided by rows of shirring and bows of brown-silk ribbon.” This girl LOVED FASHION AND WAS AN ICON
And she continued to love fashion into adulthood. It's not some girlish thing that she grew out of. It states multiple times that Anne loved nice looking things.
I went to a "Girls in STEM" seminar where they told us that if you dress your daughter in pink dresses, you can't be upset if they aren't into STEM. I am not particularly feminine myself, but I absolutely reject the idea that feminity and intelligence are mutually exclusive.
I was apart of ICAN Girls inc. in middle school and it was fun that our colors were pink and white. Every meeting we all wore pink and the school provided us a full breakfast where we sat at pretty tables with clothes and doilies before getting to work with stem. It was a good balance of respecting that we wanted to be feminine and still being good at science and technology
My mum is an advocate of girls in STEM, and she goes around in lace, pinks, purples, skirts, and occasionally even small amounts of makeup, and I remember her basically dancing for joy when she managed to find a feminine looking pair of steel toe boots with all the necessary support and protection. Her arguments for why girls aren't that into STEM are along the lines of three reasons: 1) school makes it boring by not exposing people to the more interesting parts, which is what she focused on doing, and it seemed to have worked. 2) the masculine stereotypes of dungarees and no fashion, which she just goes against by default in the clothes she wears. And 3) it's being pushed too hard in some cases. If its forced down your throat at every turn, how likely are you going to be actually interested? She always finds the arguments about people being too girly for it to be stupid, coz people are saying it to the woman who applied for a STEM job whilst wearing a frilly frock and heels.
Wow, I'm a computer's engineer, love the fluffiest and puffiest of dresses and skirt (I seldom wear pants/shorts) and pink is my favorite color. With every fiber of my soul, fucks whoever said that at this seminar.
ok but like when little women was written, Jo being “not like other girls” was ACTUALLY a big deal. a big fu to what society expected of women back then.
I would think, suffragettes and also early feminists HAD to be ''not like other girls'' when it comes to stereotypes - yes there was the thing with staying in the borders that are socially accepted. But they needed to make a point.
@@KaliqueClawthorne I agree, I think the rejection of the not like the other girls trope is wrong when it comes to this time of history, it isn't just to be "quirky"
@@laetitiacouteausuisse5296 I would say it would be based on the "Version" of not-like-other-girls For example the Classic "I Love to read therefore I'm Not Like other Girls" is weird even in historical context For example...Anne of Green Gables Anne and her Friends Loved Drama, to read and to do some pretty "crazy" stuff. But still Diana and the other ones were "other Girls" Anne Herself was "Not Like other Girls" because of Trauma, because of being adopted but esspecially because she started to Fight for her rights. But still she wanted to See Herself as a normal Girl/Woman.
@@KaliqueClawthornei think that's one of the important things to understand about this trope in older writings. Not only was being "not like other girls" sometimes very necessary, and just living your life how you wanted in general could make you outcast, but these women still wanted to be seen as women. A lot of modern people are taught to hate femininity to such a degree that they think to have a likable female character or BE a likeable girl they have to completely divorce themselves from being one in the first place
Louisa May Alcott herself wasn't "like other girls" herself. Her life grearly mirrors Jo March's, and Louisa was an activist and remained unmarried her entire life. Very unusual for the time for sure. She legit was not like most of the girls of her time.
Edit: I’m talking about the book, not any of the series, just describing how I love that Anne isn’t just whimsical and doesn’t mind getting messy but is a girl who loves both the fancy things and the not fancy things which often feels rare for female characters where they seem to be divided into either indoors and fancy lady whos “girly” or imaginative and outdoors whos “tomboy”. It’s cool there’s a young girl who is both and has many sides to her. Even in the book Anne of Green Gables I’m pretty sure there’s long paragraphs of Anne/the narrator talking all about puffed sleeves, I’ve always loved how Anne was shown to be a rough and tough, artsy kid while still wanting to look beautiful and feminine. It’s interesting that the book was published in 1908 and still is very relatable for young women who want to get messy and be artistic and imaginative and still want to present very feminine and care about their appearances
In the book all she wants is puffed sleeves and not to be redheaded and to get rid of her freckles. There is an entire segment in Anne of avolea (maybe of the island?) where she has made some kind of lotion meant to reduce her freckles and then when she is changing the feathers in her mattress they get stuck to it, just as she answers the door to a famous lady novelist. I mean Anne also wants to do well academically and works really hard for those things too, but in terms of looks she is very much concerned with how she appears to the wider world.
@@rml2765 I am a firm lover of the Megan Follows TV miniseries from the late 80s/ early 90s if your looking to closer to book accuracy in all areas. Anne with an E exists and I have seen all of it, but I feel that they could have made that series and set it during that time period with any orphan child and called it something entirely different and nobody would have noticed more than a passing connection.
@@SunnyMorningPancakes I just finished Anne if Green Gables and working through Anne of Avaonlea. I only just came to the part where she woke up with a tooth ache and took it out on her class. Its the next day and the one boy she swore she would win over with kindness and broke down and whipped because of her sour mood and the mouse in her desk. I'm still floored over his comment about the wuppin' being a man's wuppin'. This little bit of a spoiler just gave me something to look forward to. 😁
@@SunnyMorningPancakes I adore the 80s series, and in my eyes it is the only version of Anne of Green Gables. I tried watching Anne with an E and I did not like at all how they were trying to make it like gritty and dark? Like, no, I'm not watching freaking Anne of Green Gables for flashbacks to Anne getting like beaten by her other foster family?? No thank you.
Despite the other issues with historical dress in Enola Holmes, I love her strategic use of femininity as camouflage. In the books, she addresses this specifically, that dressing as a boy is a bit of a cliche, and her brothers will be expecting it, so instead she will disappear by becoming beautiful.
I think one of the most infuriating aspects of this trope, for people who genuinely aren't into femininity. Is that, for all that the "Not Like Other Girls" girl is supposed to poohoo girly things, she must also never stray from being a conventionally attractive cis straight girl. She can never want to dress like a boy because she likes looking boyish, oh no. It must be because boy's close are more "practical" or "comfortable" or whatever.
And that's when there is actual men's clothes worn. The number of time I've looked at a character that is supposed to be "not girly" and she's got long flowing hair, make up on, fashionable women's pants, high heeled boots and a fitted women's t-shirt and I'm like "well what do you call it, then?"
Jo was written like that in the book. She's loosely based on Louisa May Alcott. She is supposed to be that way. Gentleman Jack is also based on a real person who dressed that way and was not feminine at all. She wasn't like other women of the time.
Thank you for bringing up Gentleman Jack. Seriously, there were many 'not like the others' throughout history because lgbtqa individuals, despite not being the majority, have always existed and bucking the norms was not a means of being 'quirky' but a means to bravely be true to themselves.
@@foldingwishesf you look at this stuff from a queer perspective if gives off less nlog vibes and more trans masc or at the very least butch vibes Edit: especially when it comes to the authors themselves
@@foldingwishesAnd in the case of Anne Lister, they explain how being demeaned by her lover, Mariana, hurt her so deeply that she started wearing skirts over breaches/wearing her hair in feminine hairstyles to win Mariana's approval/avoid contempt from society. She would've been even more masculine if Mariana didn't shame her out of it.
She was praising Gentleman Jack though? And I may be wrong but I thought the only issue she had with Jo was the character's costume design in the remake, not the actual character
I often feel that the „not like other girls“ in historical movies/ fiction is also meant as a tool to strengthen our belief that we live in a much more advanced society today. When the character - and often the character alone - conveys thoughts that are „common knowledge“ today (corsets being bad for example) it might make us feel good about ourselves, because of what we as a society have achieved since those dark days. An insidious feeling, because it glosses over what we have not achieved.
Corsets are not bad for your health. People with back problems still wear them. Even men used to wear them to protect their backs if their jobs required regularly lifting heavy objects.
@@seresimarta4436 That‘s why I put common knowledge in quotation marks and used corsets being vile as an example for a common misconception perceived to be true by a general audience, because of old info-graphics and what actresses say.
@@juliac3933 More advanced in some ways, distinctly not more advanced in others. There's actually a whole discourse within the study of history about "progress," how it's measured, and whether it's even a valuable concept to begin with. I personally would agree with op, that a focus on scientific and material "progress" allows us to ignore and paper over the human suffering that remains as unfixed as ever.
@@mushroomshrub one good example of thinking we’ve progressed but actually haven’t, is with accessible/adaptive clothing for the disabled. Thing is, most historical solutions work better as adaptive clothing. Better because they’re natural fibres, and modern disability clothing is usually stretch polyester and Velcro. Ugh. But I wear a corset made of cotton, shifts and chemises that help keep me and my clothes clean, petticoats and skirts that tie up- allowing for both easy access and to be much more variable in size, tie on pockets! Because handbags and wheelchairs don’t mesh well, and I can’t use normal side seam pockets as I can’t access them between my legs and the side of the chair. But I can use a tie on pocket, either under a petticoat or over the top. Stiffening the hems of my skirts keeps them out of the way of my wheels, natural fibres help with my inability to regulate my body temperature, and shifts are the most comfy nighties that exist. Open drawers help when it’s hard to take on and off underwear, and keep you cool and fresh. So why would I spend way too much money (because anything with the disability label is automatically marked up a couple hundred percent) on adaptive clothing that doesn’t work as well, looks awful, and is far less comfortable? When people in history already came up with solutions that work perfectly? But most people wouldn’t know about historical solutions, because we think that as modern people, we’ve progressed in every way, and anything historical is automatically not as good. It’s very frustrating.
There’s a real skinny bias to that whole “corsets are for sheep, I’m a Progressive Modern Woman” stereotype. If the experiences of busty women with their bras are anything to judge by, I have to imagine that busty women in ye olden days were not champing at the bit to throw out their most supportive garment, no matter how feminist their leanings.
Yes, I love these independent women tropes where they don’t wear a corset … and then go fox hunting or brag about riding and keeping up with the men. I’m only a C cup but I wear some pretty heavy duty sports bras when I ride. And there were a few men (one was a doctor, although I can’t recall his name) in the 1800s who wrote about how corsets weren’t good for women
@@michiganscythian2445 yeah literally everyone in history who wrote about "how bad and awful corsets are" were mostly men (who obviously didn't need that extra support or cared about it), while women were the ones designing, making and advocating for corsets, not men.
Funny thing, I noticed that when all these “corsets are the devil” characters are fully dressed, their bust is most definitely supported. So what were they wearing to support the bust? Bras as we know them today didn’t exist yet. So we’re they wearing corset waists? I don’t think they really existed in the 1860s, but Jo March is clearly wearing something, or we’d know about it in the running scene. And Miss Stacey might have thrown back her corset into the trunk, but what sis she wear instead? These directors don’t seem to understand that if you’re forgoing corsets, you either jiggle like mad (which for some would be uncomfortable, not to mention we don’t see that in the movies), or they’re wearing something else.
One of the annoying things I’ve had to deal with since the surge of people making fun of ‘notlikeothergirls-girls’ is that people now make fun of girls and me (currently unsure on that front) for expressing liking things that aren’t traditionally feminine. I wasn’t comparing myself to anyone- i don’t look down on girls who like traditionally feminine things, i just don’t enjoy partaking in them myself. Why do people continually seek to pit people against each other? Feminine and non-feminine women are not intrinsically diametrically opposed.
Definitely yes on the respectability politics. Radicals are not eccentrics who failed at reform. Radicals are the sacrificial lambs who died to make reform look like a moderate, reasonable solution.
There are plenty of girls who describe themselves as non-feminine implying that they are better than other girls for that. Hence the "not like other girls" expression. If you say you're not like other girls you're implying that you're better than them
@An Emu I agree. I find it's just as bad on both ends of the scale. I've had girls making fun of me because I love Comics (Marvel and DC) and how I was just trying to make myself seem appealing to guys. I've also had women gossip about how because I love needle arts (knitting and sewing) I'm One of Those Girls. Sometimes it feels like you can't win.
Why are women pitted against each other? BC... patriarchy. If the dominant male culture can set the rules for how women can act/look, then pitting women against one another within those rules keeps women too busy to challenge the men who created the faux conflict, or any other important progressive cause. It's a tactic as old as time. (Obviously there are women who perpetuate this as well, but I consider that internalized sexism/misogyny - and that's a separate topic. Well, related topic but separate to the discussion.) PS.- I don't mean to disregard non-binary folks from the discussion, I'm just not informed enough about that experience to place it in the dynamic.
I don't think nearly as many people make fun of tomboys as you think they do. Tomboys in the West are still preferred (that is, as long as they're conventionally pretty...) and femininity is still made fun of by men and women alike.
I think another important point in regards to Bloomers, is that they aren't actually based on male dress. They're based on Turkish women's dress. These women were not, in their original intention, denouncing femininity or whatever garbage. It was just interpreted as that later
This reminds me of my favorite knitting book, when the author talks about how she realized that by dismissing traditionally female activities, feminists of her age were actually supporting the idea that "women's work" was inferior to "men's work." She talked about the need to value tradionally female activities as equally legitimate uses of time and energy. Thoroughly enjoyed this video - thanks!
I also had problems accepting my "feminine" hobbies. I had toxic masculinity as afab. I identify as nonbinary women - identifying with non-binary helped me shed my Phobia for feminine things. (nonbinary women would probably be something like demi-girls. But I am not a girl, I am an adult). There's also two videos talking about how Cinderella (Disney movie) is NOT antifeminist. It is a tale how she survives with classical FEMININE characteristics. I don't have to be strong and be able to kick other peoples faces in. I am compassionate and empathetic and this is a strength.
Yeah, this was something I realised back in the early 2000s, when I was an older teen. A lot of feminism centred on women having value by being able to do the things men did - which was valid in some cases (eg voting, having your own bank account), but in other ways it served to further devalue traditionally feminine things.
the way some people in the comments are calling these character masculine just because they're not hyperfeminine and say things like "embrace your inner feminity and womanhood💞🌺". no wonder masculine women feel alienated from other girls.
@@crispyshallots668 right? we actually don't have any rep for masculine women in media, so seeing people say stuff like "we need more female characters embracing their femininity" feels soo weird. (btw, nice adora pfp)
The thing is, what we consider as a tomboy now is not the same as what was considered a tomboy then. So it's difficult to portray a tomboyish girl from a past era - either you portray her overtly masculine which will be historically inaccurate or you portray her accurately but modern audiences don't catch on / find her too feminine still.
@@mikanchan322 Thank you omfg. These people are ridiculous and don't know at all what they're talking about. Anne Lister and Jo March are masculine for their time period in the adaptations discussed here.
@@mikanchan322 a tomboy now is a nonbinary transmasculine person 🤦🏽♂️ So yeah, we definitely need representation of woman who doesn't follow traditional womanhood, without actually rejecting their sex!
I'm pretty sure part of the basis of 'not like other girls' being lauded by men, is only valid for women who are attractive. In my many years of life I've seen 'unconventional' women disliked by both males and females and harshly excluded. I will grant that there are some instances where 'being one of the boys' is accepted, but it usually comes with some pretty harsh limitations (primarily acceptance only in very narrow areas). Although I understand that this was sparked by films and television and it's specifically about feminism, most women who are 'not like other girls' in the media, are at worst, Hollywood ugly and if they were plain or unattractive I believe they would be disavowed by both sides. I'd really like to see a world where you are allowed to express your particular taste in clothing or personal grooming without being ostracized by either side. I'm glad women are embracing the right to be completely 'feminine', but I wish those women who do not want to participate in the clothing/makeup rituals were accepted as well.
It really depends on culture. For example, growing up in the Netherlands you have to go to school by bike (if you are like the other 80%). If you have to go a longer distance, there is about a 50% chance of rain. Makeup will wash off, sometimes I wished I had brought a towel. The wind will mess your hair up unless it is tied, so lots of girls have ponytails, buns or braids. If they do wear their hair down, it is often in a very simple style, as they probably just switched from a ponytail (and no one brings curlers to school). So while outfits can be anything, we don't grow up with the pressure of full face make up. We see a lot of natural puffy red faces, and while teens are cruel, at least we saw human faces. Later in life make up is not a requirement for work. A lot of my co workers wear it, a lot dont. Even in a job where you see dozens of people a day. Even while we are expected to look professional. In the USA you don't have that habit of biking through storms to get to work or school, so they can have higher expectations of make up and hair. But here anything besides mascara is just unrealistic, so that saves me a lot of time in the morning.
@@MissMoontree - Thank you for that interesting slice of Dutch culture. In the USA, there are girls and women who wear heavy make-up, including heavy false eyelashes, but be assured that many, many women do not wear make-up at all or very little and rarely.
Oh, it's absolutely this. Think about all the "tomboy gets a girly makeover" scenes. She's got to be One of The Boys when the boys don't want to hear about fashion or be scolded for making crude jokes, but she's got to be conventionally feminine and pretty when the boys want to ogle her. Girly-girls annoy men because they care about things men don't care about, but we can't have a butch female main character because she won't be attractive to men when men want her to be attractive. They'll get you coming and going.
Not historical but I once read a really good and interesting article looking at Dolly Parton as a feminist icon. Its basis was that she was someone who had fully embraced her femininity, and actually used it to her advantage while still being a powerful and very successful businesswoman, all without having to resort to traditional masculine tropes. Don't think I'm explaining that well but I thought it was a worth point. Masculinity or masculine expression should not be seen as the only or definitive concept of what it means to be strong, powerful or independent.
It’s also important to note Dolly’s specific fashion ideal that she always tells the story about is a specific type of woman denigrated for being vain, shallow, and loose. She’s not just being traditionally acceptably feminine, she’s being (often treated as) unacceptably HYPERfeminine.
I was thinking about Dolly Parton as a feminist icon the other day, after someone online had mentioned the need for a movie where Dolly and Elvira are long lost sisters who team up to fight evil, lol. And, you know, they could both be glamorous and tough, compassionate and assertive; together they could easily have stopped evil in its tracks ten minutes in and then spent the rest of the run time cracking jokes in a makeover montage. I'd watch that movie!
@@HidakaSatsuki yes her lovely story of how she saw the beautiful woman in town, who her mum said was trash, and Dolly thought "I want to be trash when I'm older" It's actually something I love about Dolly is how up front she is about her image and herself. She could, and had been ridiculed for her appearance, but instead of being belittled by it, she turns it into a joke that she makes, she takes the power away from the other person by doing that and move the focus away from that negativity and onto her making herself and her positive attitude the focus. She uses her hyperfeminity as a sign and tool of her own power
Anne With an E is my favorite show, and I love the book. I would usually get mad at someone talking ‘bad’ about it (which I know that you are not necessarily talking bad). I love almost everything about Anne With an E, and from the first season, when she longs for puffed sleeves and the latest fashions, I thought that it would be mostly historical accurate. But then in season 3, she makes the comment about the corset. I was really disappointed with the writers for adding that in, that just wasn’t in character for Anne. If Anne loved her puffed sleeves, Diana’s dresses, her blue dress in the final episode, than it is shown how unlike Anne it is to bring down a corset, that was never even talked about in her time. I love Anne With an E more than any show, but this part just really made me mad. But on another note, most of the outfits in AWAE are historically accurate. The the fashion designers did an incredible job, but it was the writers who messed it up. (Sorry this was so long lol) Okay, I’m here a year later and I just realized something about Anne’s corset that she wears (when she was going to the orphanage). The corset she wears here wasn’t made for her body. I also believe that it also wasn’t the same type of corset that girls start wearing when they are here age. In the last episode, however, she puts on her own corset that she gets to wear at college, and she doesn’t have anything to say about it. So, maybe she only thought it was uncomfortable because it wasn’t made for her.
Yes,I absolutely agree with you!I felt disappointed as well!This seems kinda off-character for Anne.Also,AWAE is my favourite show as well,and you got a new subscriber :)
I had originally written a comment on that, but reading through the comment section I found yours and I wanted to say I feel the same way. I really tried to write it off as "Anne is wearing a corset for the first time, so it's probably uncomfortable, especially considering it was not made for her", but re-watching the little cut from the scene in the video made me realize that, just like Anne's line "A skirt is not an invitation", it was thrown in there to kind of make a point that she's not "conforming to this patriarchal torture device" and it really bums me out. I think there are subtler ways to convey it and you don't need to demonize a corset in order to do this, much less take out Anne's inherent joy in beautiful clothes and feeling like a grown-up, feeling pretty in something. Thanks for the comment, you expressed it far better than I did!
@@hollynotholy I haven't seen past season 1 but I've really enjoyed the show so far. So I haven't seen that clip before but I feel like an argument could be made that maybe it's comparable to wearing your first bra? It was never torture or anything and these days I barely even register I'm wearing one but it was definitely a little uncomfortable at first. And they can be uncomfortable if you wear one in the wrong size which as you said is the case for Anne here with her corset. So I totally agree that the line was almost definitely thrown in as a nudge to the audience to say "don't worry I'm still a feminist" but it could be taken as just, it's a level of constriction she isn't used to in the way maybe a lot of people were the first time they had to start wearing a bra? I could be totally wrong though, just a thought :)
@@holliegordon-jones3763 Hey, thanks for your comment! Like I mentioned above, at first I shrugged it off as “well, it’s not her corset and it’s her first time using it, so it’s probably why it’s so uncomfortable”. I bet a lot of AFAB people found bras uncomfortable the first time they wore it; I sure preferred those stretchy pieces of strapless tops instead of wired bras back when I had next to no boobs. The only thing about the clip is the “how do you do this, wearing it all the time??” like she cannot even imagine getting used to it right upon first wearing it. Like I said, like the “a skirt is not an invitation”, it felt out of place. It wasn’t needed to pass the message and they could’ve changed the tone with her saying something along the lines of “do you ever get used to it?” or something; it would seem more like an inexperienced young woman trying these things for the first time. It can be read both ways, though. Besides, in season 3 corsets take quite a spotlight, with even Josie Pye having something to say about it. Her mother wants her to wear a corset to appear grown up in a certain episode and she expresses discomfort with the idea of using something that is not yet appropriate for her age (15). I wish Abby had addressed this scene as well, because even though we know most women wore some kind of corset ever since childhood, it made me curious to know if in Canada they had other traditiona around it. And it kind of takes points away from the “only the I’m Not Like Other Girls girs are not keen on corsets”, cuz if Anne is NLOG, Josie Pye is definitely A Girl, being put almost in direct contrast with Anne sometimes. Besides, I don’t agree with everything Abby said in the video, this is just the bit that actually made me sad to reinspect upon rewatching the little cut from the episode. I’m pretty sure Anne is wearing a corset later in the series, especially near the finale, when she’s going to university and her clothes get significantly more grown-up. That last blue dress was so stunning I’m still not over it and I’m pretty sure she’s properly understructured. There’s even a scene with her pulling up her skirts and petticoats that made me effing alarmed she was gonna show too much because damn, she pulled it HIGH to make a run.
Also, corsets are way more comfortable than most bras. The only bras I can tolerate are 100% cotton, no lace, no underwire. If I had the money, I'd get a dozen stays custom made (then again, if I got rich I'd never wear modern clothes again).
In the UK (we have uniforms for school in about 98% of schools) there have been a lot of 'gender neutral uniform policies' introduced in the past few years. Usually this comes after boys protest not being allowed to wear shorts in hot summer weather while girls are allowed skirts or school dresses. Or after girls have protested being forced to wear skirts (usually above the knee pleated situations) and long socks or tights (not the good wooly kind) in winter. Some schools still don't allow girls to wear trousers (which is technically illegal). Unfortunately the 'gender neutral' uniform is usually the 'boys' uniform. So instead of allowing everyone the option of skirts or shorts or trousers, the option for traditionally feminine clothing is removed entirely, because obviously boys shouldn't have the option to wear skirts that would be outrageous (heavy sarcasm, and I see you Scotland). Which I feel definitely feeds into the idea that traditionally feminine clothing is lesser and only a certain vain type of woman would choose to wear them.
@@laralicari914 not to mention that the idea of men not wearing skirts (again Scotland I'm so sorry) is a very modern and eurocentric one. I am including North America in this due to the majority of cultural values of the population of North America stemming from European migration.
@@irlikingpie I think my point is more that I'd rather that when approaching 'gender neutral' ideals that didn't involve neutrality being equated with traditionally male clothing. In the same way the 'I'm not like other girls trope' is often portrayed through eschewing traditionally feminine clothing. I'm not sure about the side saddle issue as I've never ridden a horse, I only know it doesn't work for bicycles.
When I was in college, someone actually told me that I was an "unusual feminist" for liking dresses and heels. I've been pushing back against the idea that feminist can't be feminine ever since.
It’s not a NLOG trope when the characters - and often real people (like Anne Lister) were actively pushing against the societal standards for women in both behavior and dress.
Though I think to a degree it definitely is a NLOG trope that those are the characters filmmakers choose to present, and present this specific side to them.
@@beth12svist In the case of Anne Lister, it wasn’t a trope. She was a real person and that was her real life as a lesbian in the early 19th century. She very much was not like other girls. Her individuality and striking appearance left an impression on everyone who met her.
Not many people can be bothered to read the book, Little Women, but I have done. Jo’s clothing is actually described quite a lot throughout the books, as are all the sisters. She’s only ever described as wearing men’s clothing when they’re doing their plays, which are only ever performed in private among family and very intimate friends. However, she is often described as wearing styles or clothing that are considered strange or off-trend, but not excessively so. She wears a huge wide brimmed hat on a picnic, and it’s definitely off trend but the context makes it clear this is considered a silly choice rather than a socially transgressive fashion choice. There’s also the point of the story when she cuts off her her hair and styles it like a man’s hair. This is probably the most socially transgressive thing Jo does to her appearance, and she only does it because she sells her hair to get money so her mother can travel across country to care for her wounded and ill father fighting for the union in the US civil war. So the circumstances were very extreme, and that’s probably why she could get away with it. Other than that, Jo always wears dresses. She does have a nasty habit of ripping/burning/trashing them in general, though.
True about the hair, but then there would have been some girls and women with short hair around occasionally as sometimes it was recommended to cut hair short if you had a fever. Still would have been shocking though.
Yep 👍 ALWAYS thought the bloomer thing was too much of an insider identity thing - like the bra burning thing in the 70s just not practical (or practicable🙄) for SO MANY women and really not an attractive look! Like Angie Dickinson said ‘I dress for women and undress for men’ bloomers were not a solution to a problem anyone had - they were an identity badge, so women didn’t love them and everyone thought they looked odd. As a side note historically women seem quite happy to embrace all sorts of weird unflattering styles when it suits (yoga pants with no pockets🤭 1980s Mom jeans😣) but politically charged fashion is for the committed faithful (think lesbian fashion etc)
@@clareryan26402 days ago I bought yoga pants with a pocket. AND MY ENTIRE PHONE FITS IN THE POCKET. I am happy. I also love my mom jeans, and my corset, and my walking skirt and waistcoat, and frilly dresses, and sneakers.
@@beckstheimpatient4135 that’s wonderful😁 we should all wear clothes that spark joy (thank you Ms Kondo for an awesome concept so beautifully phrased)👍👍
@@the-birbo men dressing up as women vs trans isn't the same thing as far as I understand, especially in history. So I'm not sure it's fair to assume she meant specifically trans women in that comment.
While I understand the frustration about the corset comment from Anne in Anne with and E, I can actually forgive that more than others. She didn't rant about it being a torture device, just an off handed remark that she wasn't sure why she had been so excited to wear one. It really reminded me about when I got my first bra. I actually did a good deal more complaining about my first bra(which is funny thinking back since it was basically a baby sports bra and couldn't be much more comfortable) than Anne did about her corset.
@Fart lots of neurodiverse ppl have sensory issues that make wearing specific underwear (both modern and historical) more of a struggle then normal. I'm of the autistic that prefers to be Held Firmly, so I'm underwired to hell and back, love a corset, tights, high-waisted jeans with a belt, hightop tightly laced converse etc, and I have friends who only wear sandals, crocs, and uggs/fluff lined crocs bc theory hate their feet being squeezed + socks in general, or all sorts of other preferences Hell, I have a friend who refuses to hug me when I'm wearing favorite velvet dresses bc they hate the texture of velvet That Much 😅
@@doctorwholover1012 I'm the total opposite. I like firm fitting underwear, but hate bras and tight female clothes. Loved the 1990s of being titi-free and wearing baggie clothes. I was rocking the sun-in and parachut pants in the late 1990s. Hated the feminine stuff and wore boys' clothes. Still prefer husky boy jeans, bigger packets... oh yea. I would've loved the 18th century womens' clothing though because of massive pockets. The parachut pants of the day.
Someone once pointed out that if Persephone can be Queen of the Underworld AND the Goddess of Spring, then so can you. So can HE. So can THEY. I'm a Southern belle but my sister was born and raised in the Bronx. We heavily influenced each other. Both of us can make you tea when you call on us, but also fight you for talking smack. "Clutch your pearls!" is a well-known Southern phrase that means someone has not acted like a lady, but she and I coined the phrase, "The pearls are coming off!" to indicate we're about to throw down.
If you go far enough back into proto-Greek mythology, Dread Persephone was a Cthonic god who was ruler of the underworld, spring, the oceans, and other things, all without a man. Hades was added much, much, much later.
@@irlikingpie I know ... I'm a sucker for Mamas! Especially, far enough back to grieving matriarchs ... mythological, historical... all. Tisk! Fodder! Oh dear! Are we off the topic? I bet Abby won't mind! Whippersnappers...❤them! #Abbycoxinmyclassroom
My pet peeve is the girl who doesn't sew because she's not like other girls. That's like a modern woman who doesn't know how to do dishes. It's not quirky, it's a lack of a basic life skill.
@@akeylawallace4420 And yet there were a number of people I knew in college, most of them female, who were PROUD that they couldn't cook, as if it was a badge to be honored. I'd be curious how many of them wound up learning at a later point because they decided it was a life skill they needed.
I was happy not get learn a lot of this stuff, because my father treated my mother like trash and as a woman, she was to shut up and do all this when working the same hours he did, and then he could criticise her because He was the Man. I have now learned it, though I still can't enjoy it. All of my children know they are expected to know how to do dishes and they can learn whatever they like. I suck at cooking because I'm very analytical but if there is something wrong I can't be creative, I can only follow rules, but for that reason am not bad at cross-stitch. The more you learn, the better chances you have to find your callings. I'm great at assembling and programming computers, I'm not at all nurturing, but luckily my husband can do that OK. I'm good at wisdom and driving and making people think, and I wish I could do more traditionally girly stuff sometimes, but so long as we all have as many life skills as we can, I'm good. And early trauma like mine can definitely cause problems. A lot of women were not treated well, and wanting to escape that fate by earning more money and living as differently as possibly is understandable.
I had a 73 year old sitter who never got taught how to cook she had to be taught by her roommates. I once saw a quote said " women don't just belong in the kitchen men don't just belong In the kitchen -everyone belongs in the kitchen the kitchen has food". I AGREE.
I'm sorry but if you go and say that Anne with an E perpetrates the 'no like the other girls' stereotype I can only think that you entirely missed the point of the whole show. One of the many things that awae did wonderfully was exactly celebrating women as multifaceted beings and their individuality, no matter how different they may be one from the other. No one ever put down other girls in the show for liking corsets and feminine things, there is no 'other girls'. There are different women with different personalities and preferences and they're all valid for it. awae Anne loves dresses, puffed sleeves, and flowers, and all things feminine, she just doesn't love a corset for her. Maybe it's time to accept that just like not everyone hated/hates corsets, not everyone likes them either. People are allowed to feel uncomfortable while wearing tight, rigid clothing, and not appreciate 'the support' (just like Aunt Josephine says to Anne in that scene you used in the clip). Some might find it comfortable, but that doesn't mean that it's the same for everyone, and whether you like wearing one or not it's ok. The point is that it's not ok to be forced to dress a certain way and be criticized for choosing for yourself. I don't see how condemning women for not wanting to wear a corset and accusing them of suffering from the 'not like the other girl' syndrome is any more helpful than condemning them for wanting to wear one.
I agree. I think AWAE as more of an example of this done right. I was especially impressed with the older women.. The progressive women rejecting Marilla at first for being too out there is something I think most shows wouldn't have the (lady)balls to do. I loved how Rachel perpetuated some harmful views(or at least ones that would be seen that way by Marilla/Anne) while still being progressive as the only women at the table. Marilla was very progressive but still feminine. I loved that Dianas mother was very traditional but felt it was important she was included in financial decisions and pushed for more communication with her husband. Basically there was a nice spectrum, everyone had nuance.🤌🏾
i agree! i think this is not a well-considered video, and it misses the point of the trope "not like other girls" entirely. NLOG is NOT a female character being gender-nonconforming, wanting something beyond societal expectations for women, enjoying 'masculine' activities, or disliking corsets/heels. it IS a female character putting other women down, writers not bothering to characterize their leading women beyond "she doesn't wear makeup (ew) but is still smoking hot, obvi". it is an issue of poor, lazy writing. telling someone's story because they are unusual, because they differ from what society deemed (and still often deems) palatable, is something else entirely, and still too rare imo, especially in historical film and tv. none of the examples pulled here fall into the NLOG trope, and anne with an e is certainly far from a flatly written tv show. i think abby should maybe consider why her list of problematically written characters is made up entirely of gnc and queer(-coded) and neurodivergent(-coded) characters.
I think you're right in the sense that it would have been like that in reality, but the problem Abby was addressing is that IN MEDIA we never see scenes with corsets as something that's positive. At best it's just not mentioned, just like wearing a bra today not always calls for complaints of how uncomfortable they are. So yes, not every woman would have wanted to wear one. But in movies we only see heroines who hate the corset, and these are the (progressive, liberated) women we're supposed to root for. The women who embrace their femininity and take an active interest in fashion are often presented as vapid, if not downright mean girls. If you only ever depict corsets as tools of oppression, it's not a fair representation either and it leads to modern people truly believing that corsets equalled tight-lacing and torture.
@@AW-uv3cb Which is exactly what I said that Anne with an E doesn't do, because it explicitly presents both perspectives and nuance. My comment is explicitly about anne with an e and how it was grossly and purposefully misinterpreted and accused of portraying a vision that it's opposite to what it actually depicts.
First off, your re-enactment of "the corset scene" was brilliant. My feelings on the "not like other girls" trope is a bit complicated. Growing up, I found it very difficult to relate to many of my female classmates, because I was not into typically girly things like makeup, fashion, romance stories, etc. Most of the typical teenage girl interests struck me as shallow and very focused on attracting male attention, which to my mind was anti-feminist. Teenage me was a total nerd who played quiz bowl, tried to actively defy what I perceived as sexist expectations for me to look pretty and be "girly", and had a lot of male friends. I have literally been described as "not like other girls". As I have gotten older, I have started to realize that women can have typically feminine interests without those interest being about conforming to sexist gender norms or desperately getting male validation. Obviously this isn't a shocking revelation, but after dealing with girls in high school who said things like "only ugly girls care about feminism", I had a strong distrust of girly interests. So I agree that the "not like other girls" trope is misogynistic, but I can also see why it appeals to so many girls that feel like they don't fit in. It takes the thing that makes you an outsider and turns it into a positive trait.
Similar experience for me. I think it’s very common for young people to “other” a popular behavior they don’t follow and look down upon it. I regret looking down on girls my age for “girly” interests because I found them shallow. Now I realize that almost NOBODY, not even the popular girls, felt like they fit in. But I also don’t think I had the capacity as a teenager to reconcile that. I stand by Abby’s biggest take-away here, though: we need to ditch the trope in media and move to better, less-lazy storytelling techniques.
You speak from my soul, as I behaved in a similar way. Only during the 2020 isolation, when I took the time to reflect on myself and/or stopped giving a flying fluff, things changed - for example, I dropped my "I'd rather die than wear a skirt"-mentality, because they are easy to sew, quite comfy and have soo much space for pockets. Everyone is unique, and although I did relate to the "not like other girls"-trope very much, growing up I realised how harmful and misogynistic it is to reject/demonize "girly" traits - especially during people's teenage years, where everyone is somewhat insecure and unexperienced af. Now, I look up to people who don't give a damn, which is much more relaxing. As feminists, we should spend our energy on fighting issues causing gender inequality, not on fighting other women and what they like, even if it's deemed "girlish" or if we don't like it taste-wise.
My experience was similar. I was frequently referred to as “not like other girls” as well. I actively hid my “girly” interests as I primarily had male friends, finding my contemporaries too silly and gossipy. I desired to be taken seriously, and any “girly” tendencies I showed invited a tsunami of teasing.
That movie was totally responsible for me finally making peace with wanting to look feminine while being a civil engineer. Not an easy feat getting respect but I'm happy to say I made It to the main techincal position while still wearing frills and makeup
Yes, THANK YOU. I think the impact of that movie is so underrated. I can be a STEM and still love glitter. I even specially bought myself a pink calculator in Uni, because using that always made me smile a little 😊
@@becci8099I talked myself out of a floral Vera Bradley computer bag and instead bought myself a pink alarm clock when I started my PhD. I guess it felt like a safe way to express femininity because no one would see it. 😕
I don’t want to be rude, but the statement of “historically feminist women dressing masculine was too distracting and disrupting for society” is kind of talking against the point of masculinity in women being celebrated? I might have missed something, though!
I think the point is less about talking against masculinity in women being celebrated and more about it being to be "better" or "cool" you can ONLY celebrate the masculine qualities. She had a small sarcastic bit about how you could never be both. The other point she was trying to make is that the historical costume dramas should be more historically accurate in their use of feminism for the period. EDIT: And also that the philosophical side of feminism should be held in a greater light for these characters rather than the fashionable side.
Here’s the thing: It’s literally part of the book (and of Louisa May Alcott’s life) is that Jo did NOT live within the bounds of her society and she WAS punished for it!!!! When she and Amy go to call on people, Jo is said to have her hair lose and messy and to wear a manly jacket, and this is the reason why Aunt May doesn’t take her to Europe, because a lot of women HAVE been revealing against gender norms since forever (see the Sweet Polly Oliver) and they ALSO get punished for it! To say that the Bloomer movement was doom to fail because it is too contrarian and we need to change society from the inside is honestly a bit insulting, because it relies in respectability politics, those women, like women today, should have been allowed to be masculine! And Louisa May Alcott actually talked about this herself! And I say this as a very feminine woman: Society does hate femininity, but it hates gender non comforming women even more
The biggest reasons given for their aunt choosing Amy rather than Jo is that Jo said she hates doing favors, hates speaking French, and is in general unpleasant. So she asks Amy to go instead. Would you want to take someone who is rude on a potentially year(s) long trip? Cuz I know I wouldn't.
As a divorcee in my 40s who is now a grad student studying forensics (chemistry/psychology), I have to say that I related to this more than I expected to. Many students on campus rely on jeans/t-shirts/hoodies in large part to deal with variable weather and being outside to walk from building to building. It's also just more comfortable. For some reason, this whole female-studying-masculine-topics thing expressed itself in my study accessories. I would make sure my notebooks, 3-ring binders, backpack, etc. were usually black or gray. I distinctly remember thinking that I did not want to stand out as "too feminine." I was not attempting to be quirky or not-like-the-other girls. I was denying myself. That is never a good thing! Why? As time went on, I noticed there were often as many if not more women in my traditional science classes/labs than men. We were there, and we were clearly well-represented in number. Why not use a pastel-colored spiral notebook? Why not use other study materials that may have been considered more feminine in design/print? If we liked it, then we should use it! Using a notebook with a beautiful floral print on the cover did not detract from my intelligence. Instead, its beauty made me smile for a moment before getting to work on my studies. I don't know where I got this idea from of denying my femininity. Perhaps, it was from shows/movies you were referring to. I love historical dramas! I also agree that these tropes have slowly crept into these shows over the past few years. The point is that denying my love of beauty, even traditionally feminine beauty, was a denial of part of myself. So, I started buying more feminine items--and no one cared! More importantly, it made me happy. I realize that I may be taking this topic and stretching it to the extreme, but I believe we should embrace who we are. Being a woman is a very powerful and beautiful thing! Denying who we are to make some point does nothing (your example of the bloomers comes to mind). Wherever it is that we get these ideas, I agree with you, Abby! It is not helpful. It is not necessary. Frankly, it is a denial of who we are as women which is a beautiful thing. It should be embraced, not disregarded--even with something as silly as notebooks or other school accessories. Thanks again, Abby! This video helped me realize part of what I had been doing years ago, and I am so glad that I stopped that silliness a long time ago.
When I was studying (and later working) EMS, I made the choice to buy everything I possibly could in eye melting hot pink, in hopes of keeping my things from wandering off. It only helped a little, but somewhere along the way I made the shocking realization that I actually *like* pink. And flowery. And glittery. And lacy. I'm thirty-seven dang years old, and I'm finally going through my princess phase! Besides just being annoying AF in our movies, the 'not like other girls' trope does us such a disservice, making us think the only way to be mature, respectable adults is by distancing ourselves as much as humanly possible from all things "" girly "" no matter what our sex or gender might be. Buy yourself that pink notebook if it makes you happy, and tell anyone who doesn't like it where they stick their opinion. ❤
This video really resonated with me also. I think I’m probably just a bit older. But I strongly remember growing up in the 80s, the overwhelming idea that women who were into being “girly” or into fashion, would not be taken seriously or could not be intellectual or a feminist. It really struck me watching this how I think second wave feminists from the 70s seemed to decide the way to get equality was to be more like men, or at least reject traditional femininity. Makes me think of the awful suits many women wore in the 80s with the shirts with bows, an obvious nod to dressing like men while not being exactly like men. Even into the 90s I remember attitudes like if you dress very feminine you can’t be a “real” lesbian. Anyway, this really struck me how much 70s feminism influenced Gen Xrs (including many probably making the shows mentioned) into thinking “real feminists” reject feminine clothes and fashion. Your story even makes me think of Legally Blonde - where it’s completely unheard of for a girly girl like Elle to get into law school and then thrive. I’m glad that it seems younger people are getting past this.
@@sans-seraph Oh my god! I was a contractor in shipyards and I covered all of my tools in like glitter and flowers so that no one would steal them! But also because it was cuter, I mean, why are tools so ugly? I mean, no one ever stole anything of mine 🤷♀️.
Thanks, y'all! I thought it was just me, but clearly it's not. I'm at the point where I don't care what other people think about anything I do. Abby's video stirred up something in me that I didn't expect. I had no choice but to write. That said, my hope is that we as more experienced generations will be able to encourage younger women to be themselves without apology. Have a great day, all! 🙏😊
I feel like the harsh criticism of Jo's dress in the 2019 adaptation of Little Women ignores that Amy is presented as just as much of a forward thinking, intelligent, and ambitious young woman. They foil each other in their explorations of how women could find power, influence, and happiness during their time.
@Meradianstar 42 aw i loved it..... why do all the comments on this video and fashion videos say this cuz its a stark difference from videos on the film world. youre ofc entitled to your opinion, but i find it interesting how people in fashion say they didnt like it when people in film do... maybe its because film people are able to see the directing and cinematography and film related things while fashion people just notice the costuming
@Meradianstar 42 i saw that about 2 years ago as well, and i have to disagree. i also dont want to write out a whole essay but to not go too in detail 1. the ending of 2019 was so much deeper if you compare it to other versions and it is so intertwined and well researched with Alcott's life in small and big details. 2. I love saoirse and her performance was excellent and she is my favorite actress and her oscar nom was well deserved. 3. the movie introduced me to film and its the movie that gave me a magical spark to life. Greta Gerwig made me feel smth with this film, and its because of her that im interested in the film industry and want to become a screenwriter or director someday. So even if another version comes along, i dont care, Its because of this 3rd reason, that this movie will always be my favorite. Ironically, i didnt even know there were other versions of little women before this, so you can thank this 2019 version for introducing a whole new generation to the wonders of little women. This movie made me want to be a filmmaker one day, and no current filmmaker can EVER part with that film in their life. This movie did what the other versions could never do: inspire me not only in the theater, but IN LIFE
@Meradianstar 42 (second reply) alright, i know I said in my first reply no essays, but please read why the 94 can never touch the 2019 version FOR ME. yeah, my point is, I dont care how good of an argument some person trys to make arguing that the 94 version is better. I watched that video a couple years ago almost, and it doesnt matter. To say it straightly, the 1994 version isnt the movie that made me interested in film. The 2019 version did. So no matter what people say... nothing can ever reach the 2019 version. Why? Everyone who likes the 1994 version the best just talks about how they liked the actors or dialogue or whatever- but that's all in the theater, or in your mind, or smth you write about on youtube. Never beyond. But the 2019 is what literally inspired me to write my own screenplays. Its what brought me to the film world. Can the 1994 version do that? Well not for me. if a film like the 2019 little women can inspire a lazy ass person like me to do smth beyond the theater, then its for sure smth special. And nothing can ever beat that
@Meradianstar 42 im sorry, i dont have discord :( but that's fine because we all have different opinions and no movie ever has had an audience where 100% of everyone liked it.
Engineer here. Luckily I can play "one of the guys" pretty well, until any time I try to push back or be assertive (which I do need to do at times since it's part of my job), at which point I'm automatically deemed "an aggressive b***h" since women are supposed to be 'soft and passive' (and yes I've been told both by management) Edit: sorry all, to tie back to the point, usually jeans/trousers and a cardigan over a basic top are my go tos, I wore a dress once and was so uncomfortable with the reactions I haven't since (I've never worn makeup or even nail polish in, I'm not sure how either of those would go over)
Yes!! When I was majoring in math, one professor seriously had it out for me. Incidentally, that was the same year that I began to dress better (I was the only one in the class who did). He praised the shlumfy boys so much in that class, even though I had the top grades. There’s no meritocracy, even among the nerd club.
yeah when i moved from a girls school to studying engineering at uni i felt obliged to stop wearing my more ambitiously fashionable outfits and adopt the jeans and a top uniform of all the guys in my lectures and courses. Some of that was practicality but some of it was also wanting to avoid more weird comments. I was already aware about standing out just by being a woman in those spaces (so i kinda understand the mentality of the woman mentioned in the video who stopped wearing bloomer fashion)
As another woman in tech for the last 25 years I can absolutely verify this. I would act differently at work just to make things work with all the men I worked with. It’s exhausting.
Any tips for a guy going into a 99.6% female dominated role? I’d usually consider myself feminine but in this line of work my inherit masculinity is likely to stick out
When I was a kid, I called myself a tomboy in a dress because I loved wearing froofy dresses, but I was also active and a dork. I'm pretty sure every girl is "not like other girls" - we're all boss and awesome. And dorky. Can't forget dorky.
Yeah, I get that. I was often bullied when I wore a skirt that wasn't fashionably short and snug or the far more common jeans and t-shirt that seemed to be the only acceptable options in the 90s. Don't understand why clothes must either be skimpy or masculine to be acceptable.
Most don’t hate being femme, we hate how *society* hates on those who present as femme. Our society also tends to hate anything and everything that teenage girls like, which is bound to screw up your self identity during its formative years.
I would argue that the "I'm not like other girls" attitude jo (2019) has is kind of the point? because meg and amy, who embody more typically female roles, put jo in her place for belittling their dreams and behaviour ("just because my dreams are different to yours doesn't mean they're unimportant") and at the end of the film, jo has fully embraced the domestic (feminine) sphere with the public (masculine) sphere by writing her book (masculine) about family life (feminine) whilst running a school (masculine) with her family (feminine). This can be seen with her clothes; throughout the film she dresses more masculine, until the very last scene where her mode of dress is distinctly more feminine (apron, pink dress, necklace etc). In other words, she has fulfilled her potential and ultimate happiness through the embodiment of both gender performances i.e., not subscribing to one binary, allowing her to see the value in both.
What annoys me about this "not like other girls" trope is that there are almost always things to gripe about in current fashion, and ways to differ against prevailing fashions that are true to the period. You don't have to drag in some anachronistic gripe about corsets when people at the time were talking about some fad from Paris, or how the fashions of the 1800s made people who grew up in the 1780s feel almost naked.
Great point! If they want to have a character who's not into fashion, they can find more historically accurate ways to portray that without falling into the lazy "evil corset" thing.
Yeah, you can have a character not being up-to-date on fashion and still have them wear clothes that would otherwise not stand out. I'm reminded of Molly in Wives and Daughters, who especially in the beginning does not really wear very fashionable clothes, and when compared to Cynthia she is pretty behind on fashion. In this case not so much because Molly hates fashion or whatever, but more so that she doesn't really have a female friend or role model who can help her, and the ones she does have aren't all that fashionable themselves. While she does end up with more fashionable clothes, she still keeps her own style, which is pretty toned down, especially when considering Cynthia.
yes exactly! It’s just lazy writing. It also distracts from the fact that there are still modern equivalents of corsets that are just as restrictive if used incorrectly, and the invention of the bra didn’t magically “free” women.
Gentleman Jack is great at this. Though Anne Lister herself is proudly gender non-conforming and different characters in the cast have different reactions to her according to their own personality and level of progressiveness, the costume department doesn't differentiate the progressive from the conservative female characters by making the progressive women dress more masculine and/or less fashionable than the conservative. Instead, their dress is dictated by their status and by the individual character's personality (e.g. Anne's pragmatic sister wears more earth tones and plaids to convey her practicality and Anne's young love interest wears pinks and pastels to convey her youth and vulnerability.)
Thank you. I think the 2020 version of little women succeeds with praising Jo for her different style while also respecting the other sisters with a more feminine style.
If it is, where is it? Where are these overtly masculine women protagonists? Even the NLOGs still in the end embrace or at least meekly adhere to traditional femininity to the extent they find tolerable. The rest of us have always been treated like disreputable clown shows.
Defining femininity with "looking good/caring about your appearance" only feeds into not only misogyny but consumerism. Human beings in general want to have good hygiene but all of these trends that determine what makes someone "look good" come from companies... idk. Always rubs me the wrong way this over association with femininity and being shallow.
yeah there’s definitely nuance to it. u can be feminine and cis, just be Aware that there is a reason these standards exist. like i’m queer and non-binary and i still want to shave my legs despite the fact i know the only reason i want to do it is misogynistic reasons.
@@centali6551 Try going vegetarian. My leg hairs got minimized over change of diet. Find one that lowers androgen hormones to minimize body hair. Even my armpit hairs are minimized. It is amazing how certain foods can trigger certain genes and suppress others. I try to avoid shaving because it worsens the growth, at least for me it does.
One thing that I would say in defense of the 2019 Little Women is that they made the other sisters much more badass, strong, and multifaceted than I often see them portrayed. Especially Amy. So when Jo’s more masculine portrayal is taken in combination with the elevation of the other girls as main characters in their own right, it feels less like a rejection of femininity and more like an intentional diversification of what “femininity” means. Something that is varied enough to encapsulate Jo’s menswear AND Meg’s longing for high fashion silks she can’t afford AND Amy’s utilitarian employment of her femininity for her own self advancement AND Beth’s simple modesty. Is it historically accurate? No. But I don’t think it’s fair to dismiss it as “not like other girls” misogyny either.
Yes! I had this same feeling but couldn't put it in to words until I read your comment. Each of the sisters (and Marmie) are so different, and represent such different personalities and desires, that I feel it's unfair to say that Jo's wardrobe is solely fulfilling the "not like other girls" trope. Also, agreed- the costumes and hairstyles are not historically accurate. But they FIT, somehow. They make sense as an artistic choice.
@@kaitlynjefferson1436 yes exactly! One of the small frustrations that I have with historical fashion youtube is this unwillingness to acknowledge movie costumes as artistic choices. There’s this notion that ahistorical=bad. But costumes are intended to do more than be an accurate reflection of the time period. Take a movie like “A knight’s tale” for example-absurdly ahistorical costumes, but the costuming is great at communicating both the nature of the characters and the tone of the film. Even those annoying corset scenes, while absolutely lazy and cliched writing and totally misunderstanding corsetry, are from a filmmaking perspective a fairly efficient way to use a symbol that a modern audience associates with patriarchy to communicate both a theme related to the oppressive nature of society and the relationship of the main character with that society. But the discourse online tends to be simply “that’s not historically accurate and also corsets are great” rather than offering any analysis of the use or subversion of the trope in the film itself. So when Little Women was praised for costuming, UA-cam rolled its eyes because the costumes were ahistorical (and therefore “bad”) without bothering to think about now the costumes worked as an artistic choice.
Yes. I'd add that book Jo WAS masculine, did want to be be a boy, and dressed/address the part as much as possible. There are many instances of her clothing, demeanor and appearance being described as masculine/gentlemanly/boyish, up to and including the shortening of her name, as discussed by Meg in the opening chapter. The choice of Jo's clothing in the movie does reflect her style, as originally written.
Exactly - in fact, Amy was made explicitly feminist enough in the Paris scene with Laurie that some "traditionalists" started complaining that Jo was supposed to be the only progressive one - meaning that they registered that a hyper-feminine character was still progressive, and it bothered them, and I think having that discussion of "but why does it bother you?" is what the director was aiming for.
I snorted so hard at the reenactment with Nicole 🤣🤣! Thank you for this rant. It’s beautifully said, and obviously meticulously researched, and an important reminder that feminism is not exclusive of or the antithesis of femininity (as well as many other points). I was (and am, I guess) always described as a tomboy. It’s always troubled me that female intelligence was associated with tomboyish dress, social awkwardness, and complete ineptitude with makeup, hair, fashion, crafting/sewing, etc. That information was so ingrained that I was well into my twenties before people I had known my whole life learned I could knit, crochet, sew, tat, paint, and had been doing so pretty much from the age of five. I had hidden everything “girly” about myself, for fear of not being taken seriously (took a wee bit of therapy to unpack all that). I didn’t realize how deep and widespread that trope really is, though. It was always movies like “Some Kind of Wonderful” and “She’s All That” that got to me. I hope you have a marvelous weekend with your friend. Being able to share space and time with loved ones is such a gift (thank you, plague-vaccine!!), and is one of the very best medicines (laughter is #1) for both our mental and physical health. Love, light and blessings, as always.
I was the inept one. I didn't want to be, but I was. At first, I really wanted to pretend to be like the girls who were pretty and understood what looked good on them and what colors matched and how to be friends and be cool enough but not standoffish. For years, I had to distance myself from them because they naturally thought I was garbage, especially when I tried to be like them (all groups do that), but now I am far enough away from society that I can again see the value in traditionally feminine skills (even though I suck at most of them, all but embroidery/cross-stitch which I can copy, and reading and liking pretty clothes on TV (I don't fit them in RL), as well as the freedom we should all have to be interested in whatever we like without the boundaries of stringent gender roles, like they absolutely have where I live now. My 3 kids are all in the same place here. My boy likes some "boy" stuff but not other so he has been picked on, one girl loved "girly" stuff and now loves black sweats, anime, swords, art, and darkness (she gets picked on, too), and my other girl loves fashion, baking, and math and is our only family extrovert and has friends. I'd like all of us to be acceptable and appreciate the different strengths we all have, regardless of gender.
I totes get the idea behind this and I’m all for the basic premise but it does feel like a struggle to sit through what feels like poor reading of the source materials for Little Women! Much of the novel is semi-autobiographical and it’s pretty weird to hear you say “this wouldn’t happen” while I’m plopped in Alcott country with Louisa’s ghost going “am I a joke to you?” in her fucked up hair and very socially inappropriate outfits. Makes it hard to want to hear the rest of the analyses.
Yes. It seems we're ignoring the experience of historical women when they hurt our corset feelings. It's a lot easier to pretend everything negative about corsets is Mean Male Propaganda than to believe women have different thoughts and opinions apparently 🙃
YES! Also, there are MANY scenes in the book where joe dresses unproperly! There's the scene where she goes out with a burnt dress and has to stand next to a wall, one where she goes with loose hair and someone (maybe Meg?) tells her it's inappropriate and more that I forgot. I agree with a lot of the other points, but at least pretend that you know the book you're critisizing...
Thank yooouuu! Was thinking the same thing regarding Louisa May Alcott. And also..like, the fact that I've always been a bit of a tomboy and prefer baggy clothes cos they're comfortable and easy to move around in, does that suddenly make me misogynist or something? I love the look of corsets, but girl I don't have the time nor the patience to put one on, I'm sorry. Can't we all just like what we like and what makes us comfortable?
Big mood, as soon as the video started I realized this isn't going the way I was expecting, especially the shade at Jo, my big girl crush when I was a girl. And also jealous you're in Alcott country!! Last summer I visited her house and ngl, started tearing up when I saw the little hand-painted dagger Louisa used in her childhood plays (ps sorry this is a year late but this video popped up in my feed and I'm more engaged with the comments than the actual video)
Rejecting "feminine" things isn't masculine, though. I hate wearing uncomfortable bras and I hate the pressure to act apologetic and unsure when expressing myself, and that has nothing to do with masculinity, that's HUMAN. Humans don't like discomfort or inauthenticity. In much of history, women were restricted to a teeny sliver of life and the entire remainder of human experience was designated "for men." So when women acted too fully human-- thinking, creating, participating in public, objecting to abuse-- it was wrongly considered "masculine." I hate that this still goes on today (e.g. once shoes start being functional they're "masculine" instead of just shoes, body hair that grows there naturally is "masculine" instead of just your body). And if you point this out suddenly it's some sort of attack on other women. It's gotten to the point where if a woman says "cultural pressure to wear makeup has hurt me," a horde of other feminists will swoop in to defend the makeup, not the woman. We're all ok with critiquing elements of "masculinity" as toxic, but we need to be able to critique femininity as well when it's toxic (to us, not just others), without being called misogynists. Miss Stacey in Anne With An E didn't do anything "masculine," nor did Jo; they were just uncouth, freethinking and frumpy (qualities that are not at odds with being a woman nor imply that you reject other women).
AMEN! I’m so glad someone could articulate why this bothers me. People act like being a feminine woman is the ultimate oppression. Femininity is forced on women. Women aren’t bad/misogynist for rejecting what’s been forced on us for centuries!
This! I can't help but feel shoehorning "not like other girls" into every woman's narrative as a negative trope is a huge disservice to women who actively refused a corset and found them uncomfortable and/or oppressive, and/or unfeminist. Everyone performed their activism from different angles and different experiences. My great aunt is one of them.
I completely agree with this, there's already a lot damage done when we're even calling things feminine or masculine. This begins very early when parents say things to their child like: oh don't play with that, that's for girls or: you don't want to look like a boy etc. But I also agree with Abby that real progression is and was often slow and a lot of historical dramas overdo progression. Especially in Anne with an E it was layed on very thick and distracted from the fact that Anne was already progressive because of who she was not because of how she would react to everything that was going on around her. The fact that she befriended Diana for example could've been enough for us to learn something from instead of seeing her befriend an Indian girl. It isn't even about the clothes. Jo March's character in the 2019 movie was portraited way better imo then Anne in Anne with an E so how she was dressed didn't matter that much to me.
I feel it’s a little unfair to put an expectation of representing a movement for women’s rights in a way that people of her historical time and place will find palatable onto a fictional character who is struggling to meet her goal of becoming a writer. Especially because she seemed to have such a hard time getting published in part because people didn’t really take her seriously.
Look I have to defend the 2019 version of little women because it is the only version in my opinion to get her character right with costume, because Jo is not “not like other girls” she is a tomboy, she is gender non conforming, because that’s just naturally her way. She doesn’t shit on other girls by rejecting femininity she just feels restricted by it. The way the 2019 version has her incorporate menswear is quite brilliant in my opinion and shows way more character than how other versions of the story where she is just dressed a bit more plain compared to her sisters. The 94’s director actively choose to portray Jo as NOT a tomboy but as a geek/theatre kid, which I actually think it’s kind of a disservice to her character to not make her a tomboy, it kind of erases a big part of her character, femininity is demonized by media yes but women who don’t fit into it are demonized too, and Jo is a character who goes through hardship because she doesn’t fit into the social parameters of femininity
The 2019 version also plays homage to the queer lens of viewing Jo March/Louisa May Alcott, who never married and did not want Jo to marry in her books!
It's different ways of looking at the issue, and both are useful in the correct context. Was it gross? Yes. Is it an indicator of the values of the society in which Amelia Bloomer lived? Also yes. Making money off letting people look at a measuring tape used to measure a woman for bloomers--think about how tangential that was to the bloomers themselves!--WORKED. That's telling, completely independent of the objective morality (or lack thereof) of the action.
You mean enterprising lol. That's that #1800hustle passive income lol. But obviously it's incredibly stupid that the world existed to allow that to happen, but you can't really blame him for making a buck off of it from weirdos. A fool and their money are easily parted.
I think the problem lies in the difference between “I’m not like other girls” and “I don’t feel the need to be like everybody else.” Or even more common, “I’m not like other people. I’m an outsider not by choice, but by inclination or a flat inability to conform.” Some of this is a “I’m not Neurotypical” message couched in other terms due to a lack of understanding. The most interesting people aren’t really much like anyone else, IMO. The odd and oblique, the strange and diverse. Eclectic tastes and interests. People with whom a conversation can literally circle a world of subjects before coming back around to the starting point. And of course the media distortions and sheer laziness in relying on simplistic tropes are a factor. Odd how while Hollywood has been selling us on the notion that quirkiness is good for generations now, an appreciation for it hasn’t bloomed in the population at large. We’re desperately trying to find ways to “cure” it.
omg thank God someone brought up how neurodivergency interacts with the nlog trope and society's love for "weird" people until someone is actually "weird" i feel like it's incredibly under discussed how neurodivergence affects peoples' relationships with gender identity and expression - while it's true that a lot of the idea of "not being like other girls" comes from misogynistic ideas that traditional masculinity > traditional femininity, it's also deeply connected to how neurodivergent (particularly autistic) people oftentimes feels disconnected from their peers and how for afab people that can easily make them feel like they're different from "other girls" because if you change "other" to "neurotypical" than they are different in a way and of course it gets even messier when gender identity is brought into the mix. many transmasculine people go through a nlog phase before they come out (to themselves or others) not because they think femininity is bad, but rather because they hate being perceived as feminine i know your comment is over a year old so i'm sorry about the notification but i just wanted to say something because the centering of neurotypical ideas of conformity were bothering me a lot while watching the video
Thank you for bringing up neurodivergence! I've always considered myself "not like other girls" due to my interests and ways of communicating. I was always disgusted with people's extremely gendered expectations of me not so much for what they were (pink, fluffy, sensitive, girly) but because people refused to see me as anything but not that and voiced an issue with it. I'm a cis female who was quite a tomboy as a young one and while I have chosen to have more of a sense of personal femininity now in my adulthood, I really haven't changed much now. Except for learning that I'm AuDHD and that's a huge part of what isolated me from my peers, not just my ~*quirky*~ interests. Lots of characters written to fulfill the "I'm not like other girls" role tend to be deeply Autistically coded too.
yea thats what i was thinking while she was talking about it. There are plenty of bs historical fantasies that are definitely doing the "the only way i can hammer home im a feminist is the corset scene". but theres plenty of others where even if they wish to progress society, the reality is more about self expression, and a frustration that they *arent* accepted by society. They are the "alt girls" of the day, and whatever their ideas on where they wish society would go, they dont expect to be accepted by society? or care? or maybe its part of the arc, that they grow up and learn its one or the other. Or they are only "Accepted" because some higher authority favors them or they saved that authorities life.
I read an interesting account of I think Elizabeth Cady Stanton. Apparently she loved the bloomers for practical reasons because she found it difficult and dangerous to carry a baby up the stairs while wearing long skirts and carrying a candle. It wasn't to be "not like the other girls" like movies would suggest. It was just that she had things to do where long skirts got in the way.
Megan Follows and the 80s versions of Anne are the very best! I LOVED the movies as a kid (watched them on VHS in the late 90s) and still love them to this day (bought them over the years on VHS and DVD at thrift stores).
I had the genuine pleasure of meeting Megan at a convention, and let me tell you, I was literally in tears. She was *my* Anne, and had been the true heroine of my formative years. I grew up reading the books and watching the miniseries. Megan was such a kind and delightful human being. I was so glad to have had that experience.
I love her so much!! I saw her in an episode of murdoch mysteries and realized I had no one to share my excitement! I'm sharing it here with you! 🤗 I bought the box set because I wanted to watch every minute again before starting a new job. OH "LMM" also has an episode on murdoch. 🥰
Not to mention that Miss Stacy was totally into clothing too. There's a point (I can't remember if it was in the books or the 80's films) where Anne actually relates guiltily how much she liked clothes and how she would rather be pretty than smart and Miss Stacy laughs and admits to having had the same feeling when she was younger. Anne is shocked because she thinks Miss Stacy is beautiful and there's a moment of reflection that seems to reassure Anne and give her hope that she can have both. Actually, it might have been the preacher's wife now that I'm thinking about it, but I'm pretty sure the 80's movie just like... combined the two. So it could be I'm just putting different scenes together in my mind. Someone let me know if they have a better memory than me.
I'm relieved that other people in the comments felt off about this video too. Normally I like discussing where NLOG mentalities come from amd recently moved on from my own NLOG mentality, but this video kind of made me feel like garbage for being masculine.
First, hard agree that how a person dresses is not necessarily indicative of their character traits and it is absolutely true that you can dress in a traditionally feminine manner while still being progressive and feminist. I also see why women striving for change may have deliberately worn clothing that was considered socially acceptable in order not to detract from their message. BUT. There is a difference between the choices a person striving to make social change makes and the choices a person who is simply trying to express themselves makes. The first might choose to sacrifice personal style choices for the sake of gaining acceptance of their message, the second may be actively trying to distinguish themselves as their own person and their clothing helps them do that. Additionally, while the NLOG trope may tend to follow a particular sartorial formula that is somewhat problematic, it also happens to be one of the few instances in which girls who do NOT want to dress in a traditionally feminine way can see themselves in mainstream media. This was not something that was on my radar until I was raising a girl (currently 9 years old) who fit into that category. She is angry at the societal norms for the ways women are expected to dress (why, for instance, does she have to wear a shirt when it’s hot out and boys don’t) and I fully expect her to be utterly resigned if she ever ends up wearing a bra for comfort reasons (ie if her particular anatomy makes it uncomfortable to play sports without a bra). NLOG stories are much more reflective of how she currently sees herself and how she wants to dress than a “girl power who dresses in a feminine way” narrative. I think it’s important to have NLOG historical costume dramas where the character dresses differently from the societal norm because it provides a sense of belonging to a group with its own history (you are not weird but part of a club that has existed for a very long time) and that can be comforting.
I agree that it's the cliche part of the trope that is frustrating. Part of the cliche that frustrates me is the idea that somehow we live in an age that doesn't have its own issues or problems. Because one example of such a problem is just the inequality you mentioned--men are allowed to go around with no shirts when girls can't. That bothers me. I personally don't want girls to be shirtless, I just want guys to have to wear shirts too. For fairness' sake, and because I don't always want to look at a strange man's chest...or try not to look, if it's waaaay too hot outside. 😜
@@adorabell4253 that would be perfect except she is angry at the inequality and so she wants to protest and change the laws…and maybe go topless here as part of that? Her plans on this aren’t totally clear. I have told her she needs to wait until she’s 18 for that kind of protest and have put her in karate/self defense class and started a bail fund just in case. Are you a fan of Terry Pratchett? Adora Belle Dearheart is one of my favorite characters. :)
I don't think little woman (2019) with girly bad boy good entirely makes sense considering that Amy is just as progressive, has the progressive wedding rant and is highly feminine and into girly things. Jo was more being made to be like LM Alcott who did talk in letters about wanting to be a man (whether literally or not).She also in the book is always a mess, wears men's jackets and would wear trousers but her mother won't let her. So the idea that it's a ridiculous modern contortion is wrong. Also it's the 1994 version that actually has Marmie go on a rant about restrictive corsettes.
The director on the 94 movie talked about how their version of Jo was going more for geeky instead of tomboyish, which I don’t hate but I also think it’s sad because it erases a big part of her character :(
@@susanalopez5052 people hate tomboys. That's why . Girls are punished for not being feminine enough so nerdy is more acceptable as she can be feminine
@@emanuelyanes9925 i dont prefer that. i thought it was meh but thats just my opinion- and many disagree on youtube and in film. theres this man named thomas flight who made a nicely edited video about this so i recommend watching that because he highlights why the 2019 had depth and brought smth new to the table. This is just my opinion though, but you saying everybody prefers the 94 version tells me... i don't really know if you're in the film world but many disagree with you. It ok though, we can all have different opinions. People who like the 94 version always get so heated when I say I like the 2019 version so much better, like chill, its just my opinon
You somehow managed to watch a movie in which the main character gives a whole speech about respecting women and a tv show with a multi-episode arc about protecting and defending women's right to bodily autonomy and came away with "they're Not Like Other Girls because they don't conform to gender roles." Incredible.
Me being “not like the other girls” in a class that was over 80% girls (small school) turned out to be me being “not like the other kids” in that I’m autistic. I was very much “one of the girls” in terms of gender presentation, and have worn dresses and skirts pretty much exclusively for over a decade now.
This. Exactly this. It all made sense once I got diagnosed😂😂 it wasn't my rejection of feminine traits (which I too didn't reject at all. I love dresses), it was the world rejecting my autism traits
Oh crap, yeah. This was my situation too. I enjoyed hanging out with boys because I felt more like a normal girl around them, not because I wanted to be boyish. When I hung out with my girlfriends, I felt so odd and alien and like I was constantly having to wear a mask, because the difference in behavior between us was just too stark and obvious. It’s no wonder so many autistic women who go undiagnosed end up assuming that they’re trans and then having to detransition later when they realize that they’re not.
I felt the same way, and it happened that I am autistic too! Diagnosed way late and suddenly it all made sense. Add to the mix my queerness and there you are. Someone who didn't fit anywhere 🤷🏻♀️
Yeah mine was large part being autistic and not knowing yet (diagnosed in adulthood) and part realising I'm gender queer. Like I knew I was queer in sexuality whilst at school and actually knew a girl who was also queer, but I still wasn't quite like her). Turns out after meeting (some online, some at university) other autistic people, I've felt a hell of a lot less "not like the others".
you know mocking women who dont conform to perfect femininity is pick me behavior and indicative of an im not like other girls attitude in itself. masculine women are not inherently misogynistic just by choosing a different form of expression, and butches have actually been around for a while. this is a weird take.
It's a weird take. It doesn't take a genius to spot that many female characters have a bizarre hatred of traditionally feminine expression and are therefore shown as "better" and more athletic or intelligent than girls who dress in pink or where dressed. They're shown as hateful bimbos 😭 ofc women can wear whatever they want but traditionally feminine expression has rlly been attacked. Even girls and women nowadays confessed to pretending to hate pink and girly shows so they can fit in
Love this! We don't have to trade our femininity to be treated fairly. One wonderful woman you missed ANNIE OAKLEY!!! She became the best sharpshooter in the world all the while wearing a dress! Blessings
Have you ever considered doing a video about mourning attire? I’ve wondered about this after watching Downton (I believe that’s s1e1) vs. Sense and Sensibility (especially the 2008 BBC version). I assume the social mores for mourning would change over time, but who gets it right?
Samantha Bullat has done a video covering Civil War era mourning - she's soooo knowledgable on that subject. I've been working on a video about fashionable black clothing (i.e. black clothes that are not for mourning) which will focus on the 1890s and 1900s, and will have some bits about mourning there but def check out Samantha's video which will cover a lot of the basics about colors, fabrics, sheen, etc. here's the link to her video - ua-cam.com/video/T5w2wN301Lk/v-deo.html
@@AbbyCox perhaps a video on the cultural shift that was "The Little black dress" !? I was just a kid, but can remember being DELIGHTED that black was being embraced as a color, versus "Just for mourning"! Got in many disagreements with my mother for wearing black, which I felt was "chic", versus her thinking "mourning". I WAS a "Tom boy" growing up, as that was the only socially acceptable way to be physically active (bike riding, climbing trees & fences, etc.).
@Amy Kendall this doesn't really answer your question but you might find it interesting. Caitlin over at Ask a Mortician has touched on mourning attire just a little. In this video she talks about the heavy crepe mourning gowns of the Victorians, around the 3:20 mark. ua-cam.com/video/0OlF-EtoGBo/v-deo.html In this one she talks about how the deceased would be dressed. ua-cam.com/video/lJjfBHDuMNs/v-deo.html
Agree with some points, hard disagree with some of the insinuations here that rubbed me the wrong way. I agree that putting down feminine women is bad, and there are ways for historical female characters to be feminists fitting to their contexts without the fem hating and pushing our modern day ideas about what a feminist is on them. But I disagree that female characters rejecting femininity for themselves is inherently anti-feminist and a women being masculine is “too historically inaccurate.” Our society prioritizes and values masculine men above all, and alienates the others. It hates women who are invested in fashion, dresses, makeup, romance, family, etc. People need to understand femininity is not opposed to feminism, professionalism, and capability. “Strong female characters” putting down feminine women and the ultra feminine characters being portrayed as weak, mean, and stupid is actually really harmful. The demonization of the corset and lack of understanding about tight-lacing not being the norm, and the support and range of mobility a corset could actually provide is pretty frustrating. And the idea that a “relatable progressive woman in a historical drama” must be a corset and skirt hater bc we’re so much smarter and better now than historical women is eye-roll worthy. It’s true that many of the female historical figures who accomplished great things or were forward thinking dressed rather conventionally feminine, girly girls get shit done. However I don’t see the problem with how Jo 2019 presented (besides the costuming/styling historical inaccuracy). I loved her masculine dress emphasizing her textual tomboyishness, her subtextual or latent queerness, and LMA’s own gender-nonconformist life. I don’t think Jo being masculine is anti-feminist especially when Marmee, Meg, and Amy are allowed to be feminine, independent, and complex characters without being bashed. Amy is an important character and definitely a feminist character too, so I don’t think the movie is saying “girly bad, boy good.” A woman rejecting femininity while fem bashing is bad, but Jo isn’t doing that. Jo, a canonical tomboy, being more masculine in this movie isn’t an attack on femininity. You acknowledge that some women did dress masculine in the past, but I caution against saying that a female character rejecting femininity for herself is “too historically inaccurate” and “anti-feminist actually.” How could you acknowledge that George Sand existed but then say Jo and Ms. Stacy were too much? Look up Dr. Mary Edwards Walker, Rosa Bonheur, and Ria Brodell’s research in “Butch Heroes” for even more examples. Not all women actually cared about respectability politics, nor should they now. Some historical women did in fact reject corsets and skirts! It was really hard to live like this bc of super ingrained sexism and sumptuary laws that made crossdressing illegal, but just because they weren’t the norm and you couldn’t find many examples doesn’t mean that women like that didn’t exist and can’t exist in our fiction. We cannot ignore that in a majority of cultures all around the world, a degree of femininity for women is still the norm. I’m seeing comments like “Women, don’t be scared of femininity” and “We need to make traditional femininity acceptable again” like HELLO? What world are you living in? The world still largely pressures women to dress femininely, wear makeup, have long hair, be pretty, shave, have feminine jobs, be a wife, have kids, and harshly punishes those who are GNC. Most women represented in media lean towards feminine, there’s not some femininity deficiency in media. For those of us who are tired of having femininity shoved down our throats, rejecting it and taking up space as tomboys or masculine isn’t supposed to be an attack on femininity but empowerment for ourselves. We need to be careful about how we talk about gender-non conformity and masculinity in women so we’re not alienating them.
Well, said. Although I often get where these historical dress "influencers" are coming form, I feel they go on about this because of the romanticization of the corset and other forms of traditionally feminine historical dress. I mean, in the 1994 version of Little Women (can't remember if it's in the book, or not. It's been a minute since I've read it and they all pretty much bleed together at this point) Marmy straight up says that the perception of women being weak and prone to fainting is the result of social expectations and restrictive corsets. It also implies that the March girls don't wear them, as evidenced by the scene where the rich girls dress up Meg and the maid is shocked to find that she ain't wearing a corset. Not saying the corset part is true, but it does show that corset bashing isn't new. And, no, men were not the only ones who hated on corsets. Not then and certainly not now.
Well said. There's a whole subplot in the 2019 Little Women about how Meg wants to be a wife and mother and that's not any less valid than Jo's ambition but it's still not enough. This whole thing seems kinda reactionary to me tbh.
I agree with everything you said and especially the last paragraph. I live in Russia where the society is quite misogynistic and the expectation for women's appearance are very high. Many office jobs literally have makeup, skirts and heels as a dress code requirement! How am I supposed to "embrace" things that are forced on me? Also many women don't like the feeling on makeup on their skin, have skin conditions, don't like wearing high heels because of health or comfort concerns (not everyone has enough time and money to go hunting for that one perfect pair of heels, you know). It's ridiculous that we are now being put in the same category as misogynistic "not like other girls"... Traditional femininity is a valid choice that I will always defend, but to many women around the world it's NOT a choice, it's a requirement! Still, this is by no means an excuse to put down other WOMEN. But we are allowed to criticize certain aspects of traditional femininity, especially how ableist, classist and racist it is, and how it is tied strongly with consumerism.
This is a great comment. Although I understand all these recent discussions surrounding femininity and how feminine characters can be treated at times in modern and historical dramas, I feel like a lot of it can be pretty narrow in terms of how femininity in fiction vs real life is treated. Yes, women who are feminine can also be punished bc of said femininity, especially if they are perceived as desirable physically but "stuck up" emotionally. But femininity is still the norm, and femininity is still 'viewed' as the norm in media primarily for thin white girls/women. Just compare or look at simple marketing that is pointed towards women. Everything has to do with them being more feminine, more thin and more attractive to men. Furthermore, more obvious masculine traits and not just other thin white women being dressed and perceived as a "tomboy" are actually pretty rare to be seen in media and actually viewed in a positive way. Even the "not like other girls" characters are still in their own way conformative to the overall expectations of women today: they can be thin and wear looser jeans and regular shirts or flannels, but they can't be too non-conforming, like having extremely short hair or being fat. This is also why I'm very confused at so many women claiming that femininity is demonized or somehow thrown out the window as an option that women can accept when ........every woman is expected to be feminine in some sort of way. There's also another discussion to be had around fatphobia and how marketed femininity is directly tied to that, as well as how we inherently view fat women as lesser or even expect them to be more modest and try to hide themselves because they don't conform to the idea of being a thin feminine woman the way they "should" be.
These are some really good points about lazy storytelling through "masculine" clothing for women. Beyond clothing, though, I think what we call the "not like other girls" trope can be doing more complex things specifically for queer characters. Queer girls are/were not like other girls, because girlhood is/was always imagined at heterosexual (or at the very least, inevitably heterosexual ie the allowance of young women's romantic friendships that are expected to be put aside for marriage eventually). In Gentleman Jack, Anne is CONSTANTLY pointed out to be different than other women - driving the coach, collecting her rents. While I agree that 2019 Little Women falls deeply short of historical realism in costuming, I think they did two very good things that complicate the way you're reading their use of the trope here. First, I think they leaned a lot more into Jo's latent queerness, which connects so deeply with Louisa May Alcott's queerness. Second, they did SO MUCH WORK to show the ways all of the sisters are negotiating the expectations and limitations of womanhood at the time - Meg struggling to reconcile her desires for fashionable clothing with her desire to do good in the world, Amy recognizing her position in the marriage market, Jo wanting to work for her money. The 94 version feels much more like an exploration of individual desires and the 19 version one of those desires tapped into what we recognize as a more systemic feminist viewpoint. Both, I think, are important ways of telling stories. Anyway, I think your point on the over-reliance on this trope in costuming is important! I also think we can broaden the way we read some of these characters to recognize that rejecting some feminine expectations has sometimes been one of the few ways of living queerly for women.
Also, Rosa Bonheur is a great example of the Parisian Pants Policy (I cackled at this)! She got permission to wear men's clothing as a painter who spent time sketching animals in stables, farms, horse sales, etc, but also just fully wore them most of the time as a tiny butch powerhouse.
Yes, if anything, Greta Gerwig’s interpretation seems to be based on MORE research into Alcott and her life than the 1994 version. It doesn’t feel like a director grafting modern notions of feminism and “not like other girls” onto a narrative that never had them. It feels like Gerwig tapping into what Alcott might have wanted if she didn’t have to compromise to sell her book. It’s still through a modern lens, but I think it’s a perfectly valid reading of the story and Alcott’s journals.
@@aisabellap agreed! I love the 94 version too but I really appreciated that the 19 version brought in the political and social context that Alcott lived within more. (Costume-wise I also think the clip chosen for this video is actually a perfect use of costuming to express the emotional tenor of the scene, what with the Jo/Teddy swapping of waistcoats showing how Jo sees their relationship vs how he does but maybe that's just me!)
Yes, this exactly! There is a lot more to be said on this topic, particularly in the case of early 20th century sapphics! While I get that not everything can fit into one video and still read as succinctly, the role of clothing in expressing queerness should not be underestimated in its importance for queer representation, since we have to scrabble to find that so often. But yes, totally agree on the over-reliance on the trope!
You viewpoints seem firmly grounded in your own comfort with wearing socially prescribed feminine fashions. I have NEVER been comfortable in feminine clothing, even as a child, despite my mother’s Herculean efforts. I am old enough to have not been allowed to wear pants to school until I was in high school, and I was absolutely miserable. I did not feel comfortable in my own skin until I was finally allowed to wear pants. I guarantee you that this was not because I was a feminist or progressive, as I didn’t even know what those things meant. It was because I was uncomfortable and couldn’t do the things I wanted to do, like tumble and play freely. Skirts also made me feel unsafe. This was probably because of the lecherous male teachers who insisted on measuring our skirts to make sure they were long enough, which apparently necessitated “accidently” touching our buttocks and other private parts. To this day, I prefer more androgynous fashions, but not because I think they are “superior” to more traditionally feminine clothing. Perhaps many of us really “weren’t like other girls” after all.
Well, the context here is making historical dramas, not how we should act towards each other today. She's not saying it should be unacceptable to dress that way, she's saying it was.
@@QueenMegaera it's still largely unacceptable for women to be hypermasculine today and they still do it. there's no reason to think women in the past wouldn't do the same
@@QueenMegaera Respectability politics is the idea that the oppressed/minority class should conform to the majority/oppressor class to be taken seriously. This is seen in the video when OP talked about the portrayal of Jo in 1994's Little Women vs 2019's Little Women. She lauds 1994's depiction of her because she was a feminist, but still managed to stay within the norms for women during her period, by dressing traditionally feminine. At the same time, she criticizes 2019's Jo because she wore historically masculine clothes, even though she's described as sharing clothes with Laurie in the original book. Bottom line: women have been dressing in more masculine clothes for centuries, whether as a feminist statement or simply a tool of self expression, and it's callous to pin all of that work down on wanting to be "not like other girls".
I was in my teens in the early 2000s and I knew so many girls with this holier than thou attitude about not being like other girls and it was funny to see how they weren’t aware of how toxic they were acting. God forbid you tell them they were in the wrong too.
I and several friends from college talked one time about how we felt super great about being “not like other girls” in high school and now feel really gross about it.
That was me. I was convinced that girly girls were the devil. It's a good job I've learned how wrong I was because it appears that my 2 year old daughter is a girly girl!
It is incredibly toxic and sexist, but it’s also understandable. There’s a meme that says growing up is getting over your hatred of pink and frills. And that’s true to a point, but it forgets why so many girls and young women went in for the NLOG ideas to begin with. It’s a reaction to sexism. Teen me hated pink because it was all that’s I was allowed as a young girl. I was forced into pink, and the toys were all pink, and there was a very narrow way to be a little girl. So it’s understandable that so many teens rebel against this, but they go too far and into toxic NLOG territory. Sarah Z (whose video was referenced in this one) has a great way of exploring the whole NLOG phenomenon and why it happens. It’s my favourite of the NLOG tropes videos.
31:33 I kind of interpreted the writers take on corsets as an attempt on corset neutrality; Miss Stacy didn’t feel comfortable in corsets because it was her thing. And I actually forgot what Anne said when she put on the corset because she was excited to wear it in the first season. Also, the only reason I wanted a season 4 was for the Bash and Kakwet storylines.
Kakwet's storyline being left like that was the worst thing. I know it was a CBC & Netflix's partnership ending thing, but it felt extra wrong when news about the native children killed and buried in those houses came to light a few months later/a year later? I'm Brazilian, so I'm not obligated to know stuff about Canadian History, but it was the first time I saw someone acknowledging the sheer viciousness with which native people were treated back then + acknowledge such a shameful and honestly gruesome part of Canadian History in a mainstream TV show. It broke me to know we'd never get to see what would be made of her. She deserved to have her story told.
The HBO series The Nevers actually got me interested in women's period fashion, and got me to subscribe to you and Nichole and a few others. Seeing the women in that series fighting and doing mechanical work and such in what I thought was restricting garments was really mind-blowing. Now, I'm insufferable to anyone who mentions the "corsets=bad" trope.
Have you seen Bernadette Banners Video on the Nevers? She’s totally having a nerdgasm over the use of period clothing and how amazing the lead actress moves in the clothes. If you haven’t seen it, I highly recommend! :)
Lots of good points. I myself am a fairly quiet, diplomatic type who likes feminine clothes. I would caution some balance, however, in your dismissal of the efficacy of more radical methods to provoke lasting change. I believe there is a place for multiple ways to attain progress. As a Queer person who lived through the AIDS epidemic of the 80’s and 90’s, I can vouch for the need for both the quieter, more diplomatic changemaker (people working within the system), as well as the provocateur (members of ACT UP). Both were needed to accomplish our goals. Also, while I agree that the “not like other girls” trope is extremely problematic, don’t dismiss the positive impact seeing images of more masculine-presenting women in these films can have for girls who really don’t feel themselves to be like other girls. They need representation too.
i feel we've basically gone full circle with the 'not like other girls' conversation lol ngl i liked dunking on nlogs at first, it felt cathartic to mock my 'dumb teen self' (who was just repressing the fact that i actually did like traditionally feminine stuffs) but nowadays we're just ignoring the fact that while yes, 'feminine girls' can more often than not be mocked, (and 'traditionally femine interest are seen as lesser than men's) its nowhere as bad as the way 'masculine girls'/ nongender-confoming girls are treated. this video does make good point but some stuffs i just couldn't get behind (the bloomer rant..) and mainly im really tired of this subject lol we're just rehashing the same talking points - i just dont think (anymore) that nlogs are as deeply rooted in misogyny as it is stated here. as some previous comments said some women just don't like the conform to 'traditional gender norms' and some are just neurodivergent too!
Oh my god YES. It's relieving to see so many critical comments here bc while I really like Abby's videos I was kinda internally screaming throughout most of this one. The Bloomer rant really just states the point that women have to conform to fashion/beauty standards in order to be taken seriously - and what, we're supposed to be okay with that? And I agree that the whole discussion on "nlogs" is eating its own tail by now. Somehow we've come to a point where it seems that conforming to mainstream beauty/ gender norms is more feminist that breaking these norms, which really feels like we've missed a point somewhere. And we can't criticize these norms without a billion disclaimers of "oh, but if you're into makeup / plastic surgery / typically feminine fashion, that's totally okay!!" - yeah, we KNOW it's okay, it's literally what's been imposed upon us since pre-puberty if not earlier. The argument that typically feminine things are often looked down on falls flat for me, because it's not like gnc women or women who take interest in more "masculine" stuff AREN'T looked down on in some other way. Aaaargh god, excuse me for ranting. Sometimes I feel like starting a channel just to make a video in defense on the so-called "nlogs" because the discourse on it is really getting frustrating.
i've been kinda self-reflecting, because i was definitely a "not-like-other-girls" kind of girl growing up, and i've only in the past few years realized that the biggest issue is that sometimes, at least in my case, that mindset stemmed from my internalizing that things traditionally seen as feminine weren't as valuable or worthwhile, so i was concerned (not without valid reason) that liking or being associated with them would result in me not being taken as seriously. but i've been coming to realize that while i'm still not naturally a very feminine person by nature, i do have certain interests (like clothing and fashion!) that i've largely been neglecting BECAUSE of this bias i developed growing up, and i do really feel like in more recent culture, with help from the younger generation, is doing a wonderful job of allowing that non-traditional girl to exist without it meaning she rejects anything considered feminine, which is something i really wish i had growing up
@@endeityloon136yeah I feel like the discourse in this whole topic has chosen sides, feminine or gnc and exclusively for women, when this should be a talk about *people’s* nuanced interests, we’re putting ourselves in boxes and justifying our likes or dislikes when we’re more diverse than that. We should just be allowed to cater to parts of ourselves that seem opposite without feeling like we’re losing our identities. I believe no one is a tomboy or a fem person, we just asume that of others because it makes it ‘easier’ to understand them.
Yes! Legit cannot change the fact that I'm neurodivergent and if I had the choice to fit in more as a child and teen, I may have taken that option in place of the isolation and confusion.
I'm french. In 2012, my sister's school tried to forbid skirts... One parent send a letter explaining that this rule was illegal since there was still a law stating that women were not allowed to wear pants. 🤣 Of course, this law was no longer applied for decades, but apparently, nobody took the time to abolish it. It made us laugh, we were almost sad when we learned that stupid law was finally abolished in 2013. It was quite a fun fact to tell to strangers... 😁
As always, the great summary is a female dressing more “male-like” to signify independence and progression… in other words, we should replace our femininity with masculinity 💔💔 What i specially love about the times we are curren living in is that females are less apologetic about their femininity (or what traditionally is sold to us as feminine things and behavior) and we have finally started to realize that there is nothing wrong with pink and skirts, and femininity comes in a lot of “flavors” 💜💜💜💜
OMG this is so important. In the 60s and 70s I was sewing knitting, loved fashion, loved computers and math and cooking. It was always "but what are you? Why are you trying be superwoman? Choose!" And this was also true in the LGBTQ world. " you can't lead because you are wearing a dress! Are butch or femme? " Please people I don't want to chose. I love it all.
Agree with you, but have to admit the use of the term ‘females’ in places of women and girls is a bit off-putting. Although, I suppose in this context of speaking about femininity I should just chill. Lol! Loved Anne With an E and watched with my granddaughter who is 8-yrs-old now. We kept hoping there’d be another season. The best, most valuable show I’ve ever watched with her that kept us equally entranced.
@@sweetafton5655 certainly in my context it was female in the 60s and 70s. Things got a little more looser in the 80s and more confused for a while. I have to admit I never liked Anne of Green gables though my daughter adored it. A story about child abuse, child labour and her being sold to be "adopted " to work on a farm after being considered not good enough for domestic service at 9.
Thank you! I love traditionally feminine things. I love lipstick and heels and dresses. I love to cook and clean and garden. I like to knit, to sew, to embroider. I love these things for myself.
@@lenabreijer1311 oh, the intersection of queerness and femininity! As someone who presents high femme, I’ve been told too many times to count “but you don’t look gay!” It’s so frustrating. Or the “you can’t be a feminist, you look too girly!” thing. Again, extremely frustrating.
This criticism of Little Women 20 vs 94 is without reference. Actually, Louisa May Alcott said her mother, who Marmee is molded from, very much disliked corsets....so it would make perfect sense that the characters would choose not to wear corsets... Also, Jo actually says that she and Laurie switch clothing items IN THE BOOK.... Sooo.... What are your triggers and why do they trigger you? Hmmm?
The whole "you have to fit in enough to make change" thing is a really bad argument to make. It's a moving goalpost. Your main point that the "not like other girls" trope is bad is a good point. But "you need to fit in more or we wont give you rights" is a HUGE issue both currently and historically and the real defining factor is how much people in power feel pressured or are willing to budge on. Not how much those not in power are willing to fit in. While dress definitely didn't work against the suffragette movement and while having more things to deflect against their main message likely would have worked against the movement framing it in this way is harmful in a modern context. We do not currently live in a society that is super accepting. It's also still highly based on class, race, and how attractive someone is considered. See for example baggy unfitting clothing being considered stylish on a thin person but slovenly on a fat person and that judgement being used to discredit people. I want to make it very clear that I did like this video. I think you did a good job over all and I enjoy your channel. Just this is something that's a big issue that comes up a lot and I honestly think you'd want to know.
The point is that you do too much that deviates from the norm, then people in power don’t take you seriously. Being female on its own is enough of a deviation for people to dismiss you, yes, but you show up as a “weirdo” and it’s just a wacky anomaly, not a “real person” not representative of all women. In that case, if this person achieves equality, it’s because they are divergent and equally doesn’t have to be extended to all women, just the ones who are clearly more masculine and therefor superior.
There is another view. I totally adopted "not like other girls" to reject the bullying I experienced in high school. If they didn't want me I sure as hell was going to be different. I was proud to be different. I went with my non standard look of broad cheek bones and slanted eyes and went exotic (I am not asian, I am dutch but I had enough of these features to get racially targeted) I was also interested in science and was an honour student, which was even less acceptable in a girl in the 60s. So yes to me " I am not like other girls" was taking back my power.
Same to me! I was not conventionally attractive, too tall and with too large feet to wear most women's clothing and almost any women's shoes, makeup made my face itchy and I couldn't color-match (still can't tell what looks good on me), so as I failed to be good enough for them, I refused to let them destroy me for it and embraced it. I do think that's a very common way to get to NLOG-- via rejection. Trust me, I had girl friends who played video games and D&D, watched MASH and Star Trek, and weren't interested in boys till 8th grade, but they were rare and I was weird and knew I was less, a loser, etc. At age 50, after trying for years and years to make friends, I still am not good enough, and seeing outsiders be accepted as characters for me is the only reason I can still stand to exist as myself, because in my own world, I am not good enough to live. I do like dresses, though, just not makeup and I don't understand how to do my hair. At age 50. Yes, I tried, and I can braid it, but I don't understand what looks good and can't afford people to tell me. I understand Abby's argument is lazy storytelling and I do understand that we shouldn't look down on the traditional feminine (as per Sansa Stark getting grief in GoT, despite growing into a strong character in a more traditional way), maybe we can accept that girls who weren't good at being feminine and were bullied and looked down on for decades, who didn't date until after college because they weren't good enough, are the ones who pioneered the Taylor Swift song, that we wanted love too, but weren't good enough, and in film it's perhaps common now (Eleanor in Bridgerton), for us we were alone and denigrated and if we have a few people to watch in a film, it's nice because in RL we are the "ugly feminist" that should be ignored, no matter if we wear traditional dress and obey conventional mores as best we can, we will often be shut down and the only way to "win" is to celebrate ourselves, even if nobody else would.
I completely agree! I've been waiting for someone to say something similar to this. I was so socially awkward and couldn't connect well with my peers because I came from such a sheltered background and had bad social anxiety. I have NEVER felt like I fit in well and the "not like other girls" wasn't something I even chose it just felt like my reality.
I think the difference here is that you're focusing on your own lived experience, and there's nothing wrong with celebrating your uniqueness and taking power from that. There is, however, a problem when there's a ridiculously-consistent use of the "not like other girls" trope in media to *very specifically* symbolize such characters as "better" than characters who are traditionally feminine. When you have the woman-identified "not like other girls" character, you almost always have all the more traditionally-feminine characters portrayed as being bad, stupid, petty, etc.
I think there is a certain ignorance of the fact that for many women a degree of feminity is expected, encouraged and sometimes beaten into us as girls (literally or figuratively), and that breaking free of those often sexist expectations isn't a personal attack against more feminine women.
@@SupremeViola Agreed that that's a problem. I think the Sansa Stark character was particularly eye-opening to me (though many don't see her strength for the very reasons you mention), and perhaps Fanny Price in Austen's less-popular (for that reason) _Mansfield Park_. I think a lot of us are having the lived-experience cringe now, particularly maybe those of us who are older and got more grief and just want to not be bad and wrong any more for not being feminine enough. Variety is lovely, and all of us can be celebrated, but I can absolutely imagine (though I haven't seen many of them) current productions only seeing the value of the modern, progressive, less-frilly, pro-democracy female character that espouses a very limited set of traits we value now.
Have you even read Little Women? There are numerous points in the novel in which it discuses Jo's rejection of social norms. There is a least one full chapter in which she makes calls with Amy in the second part of the book that goes into great detail about her refusal to wear fashionable "appropriate" clothing. I loved the 90's Little Women but the 2020's version is more true to Jo's character from the source material.
The permit thing you talk about actually happened in Germany as well. It was implemented during the Weimar republic but it may have started earlier during the German Empire period. I was studying queer persecution in Germany pre, during, and after WWII I came across a paper discussing the permits and looking at how they are one way to study trans history.
Queer and especially trans history in pre WWII Germany is *fascinating*! So many people are very surprised to learn that Berlin was the queer capital of the world, kinda like how San Fran was in the 70s and 80s. Which only makes what happened later all the more devastating- people flocked to Germany as a safe place to be queer, and then it very much was not. James Somerton has a doco/video on the queer victims of the Holocaust that made me bawl practically the entire way through. Highly recommend.
@@celiwhaaat6285 The specific one I was referring to is Jane Caplan's "The administration of Gender Identity in Nazi Germany." I have some major issues with the way she uses pronouns in the article (she has a bad habit of only using he/him if a trans man was able to successfully get his name changed, but not using he/him if he was unsuccessful. Also just not using they/them when it wasn't clear). The source is on JSTOR. You can also do research on Magnus Hirschfeld who was pretty critical in the queer movement (scientifically speaking) and I believe was involved in helping trans people get access to "cross dressing" permits. Warning about doing this research tho, transvestite is used a LOT because at the time that was the word for transgender people but today is outdated and has negative connotations. Also some bigger names as far as researchers you can look up are Clayton Whisnant, James steakley, Richard plant, harry Oosterhuis, Laurie Marhoefer, Geoffrey Giles, Robert Beachy.
Also: i don’t really have time for additional research outside of uni right now, so if someone sees this in the future: please send me a reminder! Thank you 😅💜
What I hate about "not like other girls" is that they're "not like other girls" because of misogyny, and not like, they like their hobbies, thats what caught their attention, they grew up in that environment, etc. Like what on earth do corsets and bras have to do with it?? My sister had more toy cars than dolls growing up, not because dolls were girly, but because 5 dollars could either be used to buy 1 doll, or 5 toy cars, and she wanted more toys for her money, so toy cars it was. She played sports all throughout school because she LOVED running around, it just happened that boys were more interested in sports than girls. Everything she did wasn't to actively not be like other girls, she was rolling to the beat of her own drum and there aren't enough positive portrayals of that in media.
Beginning this video, I am immediately reminded of Tim Burton’s Alice in Wonderland, which begins as I understand it with Alice attending a big fancy tea party full of rich people in what I can best describe as her underwear and bed head…. Definitely not what they were TRYING to go for but like… making it a point to say she’s not wearing a corset, wearing her hair down, her dress being so short compared with other characters in the same scene… what am I supposed to think? And also, how in heaven’s name did her mother let her out of the house like that if we’re trying to make a point about how oppressive this setting is? It’s just so confusing to me but very clear they were making her a textbook nlog
Actually on Alice, though que wasn't wearing a corset and I don't doubt they could've been trying to make a point, I strongly believe it's more on the not wanting to grow up and less on the uncomfortable trope we all know. Adding to this theory the mentioned fact that she is also wearing a shorter skirt which is more associated with children's clothing. At the same time she's always portrayed as a very childish person which her clothing would clearly reflects therefore reinforcing my theory. Please leave me your thoughts. I don't mean in any way to be rude ir disrespectful ir cause any harm I just want to have a healthy respective debate in the point you presented.
sofia velasco this is an interesting way to look at it, I hadn’t thought about it like this! I think my main issue considering this element is still… why did her mother let her leave the house like that? If this was a conversation at home before they’d left, I think it would get across that point that Alice doesn’t want to grow up much better AND comment on the restrictive nature of Alice’s society. I think the hair, too, could be treated as a visual element to show her journey: her mother forces her to wear it up for the party even though Alice doesn’t want to, she runs off and takes her hair down when entering wonderland, reentering a central aspect of her childhood. As for her fancy clothes and corset, she grows and shrinks so much through that movie I can’t imagine they’d stick around for very long. Then at the end, I’d have her hair sort of half-up and half-down, showing that she’s accepted her age but refuses to leave behind her inner child or some such when she goes off to do her trading stuff. This is, of course, all wishful thinking and what if’s, but I think it would be really neat if they had pushed any themes like that-Alice being stuck on her childhood is an interesting idea that would be cool if they’d explored it. I have a lot of other issues with the movie (since Alice in wonderland/through the looking glass has always been one of my favorite books) but I think what hurts most, in retrospect, is the wasted potential of the film that comes from relying on tropes like a wonderland prophecy rather than allowing Alice to become a self-made hero: not “everyone’s telling me I must be this so I have to go and do it-“ by that logic, she’d have to marry Hamish in the real world- but instead “there’s a problem, and these are people I care about, so I’m going to go and fix it any way I can, regardless of how people think of me.” And I just think it’s a bit of a shame that they fell short of that.
@@myglasseskeepslipping One of the issues is that Burton's Alice took some aspects of the American McGee's Alice game and so we are to see Alice as not entirely mentally stable and part of that is the visual aspect of her clothes and hair. Mostly, though, it's Burton and his aesthetic.
Her mother literally tells her in the carriage on the way to the party that she's "not properly dressed" because she doesn't have a corset, and she replies to her mother "Who's to say what is proper? If it were decided that it was proper to wear a codfish on your head, would you wear it? To me, a corset is like a codfish." This scene is so egregious in how it plays to this trope I've never forgotten that godawful scene
This definition of "misogyny' because women complain about corsets in movies is ridiculous. The first time I saw a movie scene about corset tightening was in "Gone with the Wind", which was written by a woman who was alive and had older family members during the corset era. There is a line in one of the Laura Ingalls Wilders books about how a younger sister wanted to wear a corset and older sister said be thankful you aren't old enough, you won't like it. It wan't something made up by men recently.
Gone with the wind was to show she tight laced and was vain and what she was doing was not a norm as for Laura Ingles that book was edited by a man and had parts added and events changed the big woods actually after the prairie and in Little House in the Big woods they go to a wedding in which they are all getting ready and somebody says that most corset was so tight at her wedding that Paul could wrap his entire hand around her waist and his index finger and his thumb touched and how Laura felt proud of how people were talking about her mom does that seem physically possible no it was exaggerated and although women did write it the reason for their riding whether to point out someone's vanity and something like tight lacing or comparable to Kim Kardashian wearing four pairs of Spanx and calling it what every woman does and it's a miserable feeling to an exaggerated book publish and edited by men
Yeah also the corset debate goes back to the very early 20th century if not the 19th so... Gone With the Wind falls slap bang in the height of that discourse.
So because two people complained about it in their books on the tail end of corset debate and them going out of fashion means that there was nothing misogyny related about the fall and villainizing of corsets, even though men WERE literally the ones to start the idea they were bad, "coincidentally" just before their decline? I don't get what you're saying here. People are aggravated by the trope because it's overused, especially in eras where corsets were the normal thing and with people who strictly used them as a support garment. People are aggravated because it only makes sense in specific contexts which are almost always absent, and instead it's being used as a way to spit on feminine women in history for just existing in their time period. It's like the "oh my gosh these heels are so uncomfortable isn't someone dumb if they wear them?" trend, except cprsets actually had a use. They were literally just pre-bra/shapewear bras and shapewear. 90% of dresses today still have a corset feature, it's just made as part of the dress. That's the issue
People love to use the “corsets were not uncomfortable or anti feminist they were just bras” when women to this day rebel against bras as a feminist statement too. Like I get sometimes the anti corset stances are exaggerated but it was not a made up thing, and there’s a reason they went out of fashion. Like yeah a piece of clothing can’t be anti feminist but there’s a whole documented history of suffragettes reveling agains feminine conventions, it’s a nuanced topic!!
@@susanalopez5052it is indeed a nuanced topic, but even today the rebellion against bras screams so much of skinny privilege lol, like a lot of us need actual support. Also, the corsets going out of fashion is primarily because our clothes evolved into lighter materials that don’t require distribution of weight (a function of stays) and also because we have stretchy material to make simpler support garments in the form of bras. I’d hazard a guess too that there’s a lot to do with the rise of fast fashion and people not making their own clothes, as for corsets/stays to be comfortable, they should be custom fitted (made yourself or by a seamstress) - something which nowadays isn’t accessible to most due either to cost or lack of sewing skills. (Not saying that lack of sewing skills is some terrible thing, but just demonstrative of changing priorities and a world where clothing is more accessible from retailers for cheap prices!)
At this point "anti-corset" has definitely become litterary short hand. I feel like the reason no one is considering the implications is because it's such an easy way to establish a character as progressive. I feel like writers use this in place of an actual exploration of what it means to stand up for women, which is a shame because they're brushing past the thing being "anti-corset" is meant to symbolise.
A word in defense of Jo's clothing in the 2019 Little Women, it wasn't just for the "I'm not like other girls" statement (yeah, that's annoying, we can agree on that). Jo and Laurie share a wardrobe, and you see them wearing the same clothing at different points in the movie, which was a way to underscore that the two characters are basically the same person. Jo loves Laurie because he's the other part of her self, and the clothes make that statement. (Greta or Jacqueline talk about this in some of the interviews.)
exactly like some people in fashion dont know the film world but if they would just dive into film and directing, they would realize not everything is for a single purpose in fashion
There’s a reason Wollstonecraft is telling women not to be obsessed with clothing and luxuries, it’s because men at the time were rejecting luxuries to assert their masculinity and their very superior Britishness, which to them, gives them the right to stay in power. That’s why you always see men saying shit like, “ladies Adore their Fashionable cloathes whych is normall and Just so” But if women also reject pretty things and wear something simple like the three piece suit men grow so fond of, they no longer have a reason to tell women they can’t be part of the political sphere. So what Wollstonecraft is saying, is stop wasting your energy with fashion and use it to take your rights as a woman.
What she was also saying, though, even if she might not have wanted to, was 'if you enjoy this frivolous fashion thing, you deserve not having any rights as a woman.' I agree that telling women 'take interest in the wider picture and not just in that small slice society deems acceptable for you' is good. Yet if you put it down by saying 'that slice isn't worth your interest,' you automatically tell women who are truly interested in this that they are worthless and shouldn't have more rights.
@@desolateleng9943 Yet, the 'not like the other girls' thing is deeply anti-feminist, because it suggests that all 'girly things' are worth less than 'manly things.' A girl has to show boyish/manly traits to be recognised as worthy and that is definitely not feminine. Consumerism isn't feminine. Consuming happens for men and women alike. A woman buying new clothes isn't consuming more than a man buying a new car, for instance.
@@cayreet5992 No it doesn't. It is a rebellion against being told that a women should have to dress a certain way. Perhaps immature, but a reaction to societal norms. Which are still going strong today, let's not pretend differently. It's also a rebellion against the notion that certain traits or behaviour is unnatural for a woman because they are "boyish" or "manly". A woman buying a new dress isn't consuming more than a man buying a new car, sure, who said anything different? It's still consumerism. There's nothing wrong with a little frivolity in our lives, but we shouldn't try to pretend that our frivolities are anything than what they are.
@@desolateleng9943 The point about the whole 'reject what society is expecting you to do' thing is that at that time, being dressed as society expected you to showed you had your stuff together and could be considered a good member of society (hence potentially someone who could be trusted with things). Even poor women tried to find ways to 'move with fashion' because it meant showing they were responsible members of society (in the eyes of society, this is not a natural law). Rejecting all that is considered typically feminine to be accepted as someone who can be trusted with things which women are not trusted with means agreeing with society (men, usually) that a woman in general can't be trusted with these things. By rejecting your femininity in order to be taken seriously, you agree with those who are not taking you seriously otherwise that they're right. A woman can wear fancy clothes and at the same time be a politician or lead a company. One does not make the other impossible. A woman can be interested in fashion and still be sensible and capable of taking care of her own life. Therefore telling women to 'reject their frilly fashions and dress like men' to be taken seriously is not the best suggestion to make.
As someone who constantly complains about wearing a bra, I feel like complaining about a corset is probably accurate. I do think it’s overdone but if they are readjust them and giving each other a knowing look it’s a good node to the struggles of having breasts
Given that a corset would spread out the weight of the breasts across a much wider space, it might actually be more comfortable to wear a corset (not tightlaced, of course, but snug to the body) instead of the bra.
I just wanted to add to this conversation that while things like "dressing impeccibly" in order to gain respect and get one's political goals accomplished is a common route for activism, it also plays heavily into respectability politics, which is it's own negative can of worms. While I understand the point you're making, I don't know if I would necessarily hoist it up as a universal good, or as the only activist strategy that works.
She never said it was. Just that thats what they had to do then. She even mentions how in modern times the idea of having to fit in to effectively share your ideas isn't as true as it used to be.
@@theekatspajamas Perhaps op was so distracted by the possibility of not only ranting but correcting someone on a matter they have feelings about that it turned their ears off.
It's a tricky line. The bloomers section made me think of "the patriarchal bargain," where we as women decide which feminine expectations we'll enact in light of the privileges and protections offered -- which overlaps a great deal with respectability politics.
There's that, and I'm not disagreeing. But there's also the view that if someone dresses poorly or sloppily, they are somehow more honest and true than someone who dresses well. It's not just an American attitude, but I associate it with the U.S. because of Ben Franklin dressing down and somewhat looking down at the French court -- while asking for their help.
i mean i know people aren’t the biggest fans of the costuming in the 2019 little women in general, but to say that it’s totally presenting dressing in a feminine manner as “bad” feels a little off. i think in that movie, part of the point is that amy is just as important to the story as jo. maybe it’s an ultra modern interpretation, but jo learns from amy and amy being feminine and sees the value in that. part of the point of the movie is celebrating those differences in how the sisters all embody their femininity. and part of the point i think is jo realizing that her dislike of those things is shallow. maybe it’s overall not totally realistic to the time period but to claim that 20-9 little women totally supports that “not like other girls” trope kind of invalidates amy. just compared to some of the other examples listed, little women has multiple examples of women in her sisters and mother. i think equally important is having multiple well developed and unique women in these stories allows there to be more nuance and makes it clear that jo is not in any way better or worse than her peers
Wollstonecraft isn't a feminist? lol what is wrong with you. Also using a picture of ANNE LISTER on the prev pic of the video? Yea I guess it's pretty cringey and "not like other girls" to be a lesbian gender non conforming woman. Give me a break. You can love historical fashion, acknowledge that corsetts weren't literal torture instruments and still recognize historical and sociopolitical context. It's not that hard. Fashion is always an expression of societal developments and I feel kinda weird having to tell that a youtube whos literal job is talking about historical fashion. So ignoring that context for the sake of "just feeling good and fangirling" over fashion is incredibly short sighted. Again: You can adore, wear, talk about historical fashion all you like. It's fine, it's wonderful, I do it too. But ignoring the voices of women who actually lived in that time and calling feminists "cringey" because you feel hurt that they aren't validating your hobby is... something else. Recognizing the problematic aspects of historical fashion is not the same as hating historical fashion.
Thank you for this comment! I feel the same way as you do but you worded it much better than I ever could. I was so excited when Gentleman Jack first came out. Shockingly, I had never heard of Anne Lister before! The voices of GNC women seem lost to time, stories untold, so learning that there were women just like me (gender non-confirming, loving other women) all throughout history… it really means the world to me.
Bingo!!! There’s a reason the women we know as historical feminists of these times were traditionally feminine - it wasn’t safe to publicly not be! Conversations around historical fashion *must* include queer history.
Lol if a woman in a period drama is masculine/gender non-conforming and/or wants something outside of marriage/motherhood, she's a 'not like the other girls'? Lmao
I get that the UA-camrs that say corsets are not uncomfortable have worn them, but a lot of modern women don't even like wearing bras. I tried a dress with boning once. That didn't work.
I tried a dress with plastic boning and it was terrible (plastic heats up, kinks/warps and then can't support any weight defeating the whole point, plus its pokey). And I currently hate bras (used to love them when I could get them to fit me, now... I would need to go custom to fit my particular combination of fit issues). But corsets truly are comfortable. Obviously with the caveat of if they fit well. But the way they hug is just so relaxing (deep pressure therapy basically) plus if an overbust then they provide support by spreading the weight throughout the entire garment, not holding it on a relatively narrow band of increasingly restrictive elastic (elastic always tries to go back to its smallest unstretched state and applies increasing pressure the closer it gets due to physics reasons) and relatively narrow straps over a muscle and nerve group that isn't designed to hold much weight. I don't actually own an overbust corset (the one I'm wearing in my picture I simply got to try on) but I am certainly going to make one when I can because I just can't with bras any more (they play havoc not only due to not fitting well, but due to my EDS.)
Modern bras are uncomfortable. The elastic warps and rolls up, and begins to rub, dig in and pinch. They're made from plastic fabric and inflexible metal underwires. Corsets were made to mould to shape of the wearer, and modern bra is not.
@@melodyclark1944 Yeah I agree jeans aren't comfy and shorts are the worst. I also dislike modern bras and spanx. But corsets are just awesome. When you have made it to fit you it's like getting a supportive hug all day. They just feel right. Not sure why I love the feel as much as I do but corsets just hit different.
On the note of corsets and comfort. Laura Ingalls Wilder did write in her book that was based on her own life that she hated the corset and her mother encouraged her to tight lace it and wear it during at night to have a “pretty, small waist”. And her mother also boasted about how her husband could wrap her hands around her waist so that his fingers touched. So there coul be some truth to that myth, people, even working class tight laced for fashion.
Wollenstonecraft's A Vindication of the Rights of Women is really interesting, yes she says some odd stuff, but she also makes very good points on stuff we are still fighting for today. I highly recommend reading it, and if you are like me and lack time or the attention span, its on audible. She says a lot of interesting facts but something I found interesting that Abby didn't mention here is that she made a huge point about women needing to be independent, and that included being able to dress themselves without assistance if the need arose. Like a lot of the stuff she says is just her racking down her compatriots for their reliance on servants and their husbands, but she's less racking them down but the way they were brought up and educated. She largely blames the system for creating these women she considers just mindless drones of society. Essentially Trophy Wife's of her era.
This is really important, but I think it’s also really important to address that Anne Shirley in the books and the 80s show clearly has textbook ADHD. Or what would be textbook ADHD if they wrote textbooks about girls with ADHD. She IS not like other girls, but not in the way of the trope and it’s incredibly important to talk about it. She has the impulsivity, the distractibility, and the rejection sensitivity that are the hallmarks of how ADHD presents in women and girls. And her family not only loves her but chose to live her. That could literally change someone’s life because that kind of ‘not like other girls’ feeling is incredibly isolating. That’s actually why I stoped watching Anne with an E quite early on, though it took me over a year to figure it out, Anne was no longer relatable to the ADHD part if my brain and it felt wrong and even cruel. Also, you know there’s a new PBS adaptation as well right? From 2016 and 2017, there are 3 made for TV movies. I’ve only managed to watch the first one so far but it was cute.
It's always been EXPECTED of women to look appealing to men. Many women broke away from what women are traditionaly expected to wear so that we would have the freedom to wear pants, not wear make up, let our hair be free and not wear bras if we don't want to. A woman choosing to not wear "traditional" women's attire is not saying she's better or not like other girls. She just doesn't want to dress like that. I'm grateful for the women that broke the mold. They gave me the freedom to dress and act in a way that I feel the most comfortable in figuratively and literally.
@@kenna163Jesus Christ. Talking about how wealthy noble women should care about more than just clothes is not unfeminist. This woman in the modern era who LARPS as a historical woman does not know more than an actual woman from that era.
I feel Anne’s corset comment is more about her simply not being used to it. When we were tweens, we had training bras, which had us getting used to wearing a bra, but Anne and her peers didn’t really have ‘training corsets’ so it’s more of a not being used to it rather than “corsets are the devil!!!” Bras are annoying, and we complain about them, so it’s just the equivalent of it.
@@songbanana8 huh. Guess I should have paid more attention. But child stays wouldn’t have been as boned or shaping as adult ones, so maybe it’s more like going from a training bra to one with a thick underwire?
@@katieholmes8301 I don’t think they ever show Anne wearing or using one at all. We see her in her undergarments and we also see all of her dresses many times. They never mention one for Anne.
For more busty women, bras are a necessity. While it can be really uncomfortable without one, sometimes after a long (hot) day it's the best feeling to take it off. I wouldn't want to be forced to live without bras, but I also would appreciate it if you could go anywhere without a bra when you don't feel like it. This is representative of my feelings about clothes and fashion. I do like to dress up for occasions. But most of the time I prefer simple, comfortable clothing. Both should be okay. And I wish we all would spend much less time with this topic.
"You have to fit in and then make changes." Actually I've long believed that the existence of more extreme activists makes moderate activism seem more reasonable and therefore more effective. We need both, IMO.
interesting point. i think it has had the opposite effect as well. "you all agree with the most extreme view". But i think there is also a point in there somewhere about how things dont change if you dont push hard for them. Its just more...about knowing when you are alienating the people you are trying to show the path to, and when to push for maximum change and not compromise it. and sometimes that big push *is* wearing something shocking. Like idk Drag has been around for a while, but the modern makeup is far more exaggerated and shocking than it was in the past, but thats what made it intriguing to many and led to an ability to recognize it and furthered its popularity and acceptance in a way that it didnt have before. *wearing it* is not mainstream, but elements of it were adapted into makeup techniques and just made many products more common. Drag itself is still a conflict within society, but it became far more accepted by those who were unaware of it, because of how shocking the clothing is. Its not exactly a feminist thing, but it does highlight fitting in isnt necessary to progress society.
I’d argue that how ‘shocking’ it looks, usually increases the dislike amongst those that already dislike it - or makes them feel at easy because now they think it’s just silly & thus beneath their notice. I do know some who solely like it because of the make-up, since they like makeup heavy carnival/mardi gra styles. Some steam-punk museum gatherings I went to had costumed visitors in similar make-up aesthetics, and it further cemented some of my relatives beliefs that ‘steampunk’ is people dressing up as edgy clowns or demons. 🤷♀️🤷♂️
I feel it should've been pointed out that Susan B Anthony was using feminine dress as respectability capital while doing crimes (voting while female) and getting arrested. Seeing a woman who looks like they could be your wife or mother get arrested is more rhetorically powerful. Similar to 60s black civil rights activists tended to dress in their Sunday best while doing sit-ins.
No fr, it was kinda jaw-dropping to hear that being said. It was, in the most respectful way, the most white feminism thing to say. There are people who will never accept me because of my ethnicity, but poc have done a lot of work. How do you mention Two-Spirit people and other queer people and say that in the same video?
I always hated the not wearing a corset trope in historical costume dramas mainly because its the same as a woman leaving her house without wearing a bra to go to work or a social event. Doesn't really happen.
Of course women leave their houses without a bra to go to work or other places. I do it literally all the time. Bras are not corsets, their usefulness is somewhat limited when you don't need breast support. Corsets were doing more than that, so it would have been more complicated to skip them. I dream of a world where bras are seen as the useful tool they are, without being considered mandatory in women's wardrobe.
I am a woman who goes without a bra and I am very confused by this statement And no it's not a feminist thing I just dont like clothes they make me too aware of my body, I cant wear pants either I have to wear skirts
@@thepinkestpigglet7529 I meant going to work or a social engagement without wearing a bra if you need one for support. I only add work because most places will require proper under garments if they are required by breast size. Modern womens clothes are mostly designed with a bra in mind, so you have to wear one for clothes to drap properly.
@@ladyfeonyx1822 in modern world "bra", when not used just for comfort of large-breasted people, is worn to conceal the natural shape of the boob. Because God forbid anyone sees that you have nipples, or that your breasts are not actually perfect half-spheres. It is not about how clothes fit over a bra, it doesn't change that much.
@@ladyfeonyx1822 that's sexual harrassment and in my specific case discrimination against people with disabilities and any employer who comments on my breasts will hear from a lawyer
Hey Everyone - Links to creators I mentioned are in the description and my works cited can be found here: www.patreon.com/posts/54867822
(also I feel like I need to say this because I'm slightly paranoid) - While I'm not a fan of the 2019 Little Women (for a variety of reasons, one of them being that the 1994 version is just my favorite movie of all time, so it's just like...not the same.) I really adored Anne with an E, even though I was frustrated by how they portrayed Ms. Stacy. They did a lot of wonderful things in the series (Aunt Jo 👑). Also, if you ever want me to cry on cue, just get me talking about Matthew (from either Anne with an E or Anne of Green Gables. My heart. I CANNOT 😭)
Your character and UA-cam channel are amazing. You are very smart and fun.
"Good Movie!"
@@tanjahorvatserbiaoldslavsh4685 Podcast?
I have only read the books and I cried and had to put it down for a bit......
"Couldn't Agree With You Mo re, as It too Fabricated & Drawn Out!"😭
just a reminder from the book Anne of Green Gables
“Anne took the dress and looked at it in reverent silence. Oh, how pretty it was - a lovely soft brown gloria with all the gloss of silk; a skirt with dainty frills and shirrings; a waist elaborately pintucked in the most fashionable way, with a little ruffle of flimsy lace at the neck. But the sleeves - they were the crowning glory! Long elbow cuffs, and above them two beautiful puffs divided by rows of shirring and bows of brown-silk ribbon.”
This girl LOVED FASHION AND WAS AN ICON
And she continued to love fashion into adulthood. It's not some girlish thing that she grew out of. It states multiple times that Anne loved nice looking things.
Yes, this way it was also depicted in the anime series I used to watch and loved.
Plus she reads as ADHD and/or autistic to me (I'm both), so she can't help but be different
@@kateb2643 this!
Thank you. Period.
I went to a "Girls in STEM" seminar where they told us that if you dress your daughter in pink dresses, you can't be upset if they aren't into STEM. I am not particularly feminine myself, but I absolutely reject the idea that feminity and intelligence are mutually exclusive.
Completely agree. We should ask people in such seminars if they can cite any study showing that wearing pink dresses decreases one's mental faculties.
I was apart of ICAN Girls inc. in middle school and it was fun that our colors were pink and white. Every meeting we all wore pink and the school provided us a full breakfast where we sat at pretty tables with clothes and doilies before getting to work with stem. It was a good balance of respecting that we wanted to be feminine and still being good at science and technology
My mum is an advocate of girls in STEM, and she goes around in lace, pinks, purples, skirts, and occasionally even small amounts of makeup, and I remember her basically dancing for joy when she managed to find a feminine looking pair of steel toe boots with all the necessary support and protection. Her arguments for why girls aren't that into STEM are along the lines of three reasons: 1) school makes it boring by not exposing people to the more interesting parts, which is what she focused on doing, and it seemed to have worked. 2) the masculine stereotypes of dungarees and no fashion, which she just goes against by default in the clothes she wears. And 3) it's being pushed too hard in some cases. If its forced down your throat at every turn, how likely are you going to be actually interested?
She always finds the arguments about people being too girly for it to be stupid, coz people are saying it to the woman who applied for a STEM job whilst wearing a frilly frock and heels.
Two words: Legally Blonde
Wow, I'm a computer's engineer, love the fluffiest and puffiest of dresses and skirt (I seldom wear pants/shorts) and pink is my favorite color. With every fiber of my soul, fucks whoever said that at this seminar.
ok but like when little women was written, Jo being “not like other girls” was ACTUALLY a big deal. a big fu to what society expected of women back then.
I would think, suffragettes and also early feminists HAD to be ''not like other girls'' when it comes to stereotypes - yes there was the thing with staying in the borders that are socially accepted. But they needed to make a point.
@@KaliqueClawthorne I agree, I think the rejection of the not like the other girls trope is wrong when it comes to this time of history, it isn't just to be "quirky"
@@laetitiacouteausuisse5296 I would say it would be based on the "Version" of not-like-other-girls
For example the Classic "I Love to read therefore I'm Not Like other Girls" is weird even in historical context
For example...Anne of Green Gables
Anne and her Friends Loved Drama, to read and to do some pretty "crazy" stuff. But still Diana and the other ones were "other Girls"
Anne Herself was "Not Like other Girls" because of Trauma, because of being adopted but esspecially because she started to Fight for her rights.
But still she wanted to See Herself as a normal Girl/Woman.
@@KaliqueClawthornei think that's one of the important things to understand about this trope in older writings. Not only was being "not like other girls" sometimes very necessary, and just living your life how you wanted in general could make you outcast, but these women still wanted to be seen as women. A lot of modern people are taught to hate femininity to such a degree that they think to have a likable female character or BE a likeable girl they have to completely divorce themselves from being one in the first place
Louisa May Alcott herself wasn't "like other girls" herself. Her life grearly mirrors Jo March's, and Louisa was an activist and remained unmarried her entire life. Very unusual for the time for sure. She legit was not like most of the girls of her time.
Edit: I’m talking about the book, not any of the series, just describing how I love that Anne isn’t just whimsical and doesn’t mind getting messy but is a girl who loves both the fancy things and the not fancy things which often feels rare for female characters where they seem to be divided into either indoors and fancy lady whos “girly” or imaginative and outdoors whos “tomboy”. It’s cool there’s a young girl who is both and has many sides to her.
Even in the book Anne of Green Gables I’m pretty sure there’s long paragraphs of Anne/the narrator talking all about puffed sleeves, I’ve always loved how Anne was shown to be a rough and tough, artsy kid while still wanting to look beautiful and feminine. It’s interesting that the book was published in 1908 and still is very relatable for young women who want to get messy and be artistic and imaginative and still want to present very feminine and care about their appearances
In the book all she wants is puffed sleeves and not to be redheaded and to get rid of her freckles. There is an entire segment in Anne of avolea (maybe of the island?) where she has made some kind of lotion meant to reduce her freckles and then when she is changing the feathers in her mattress they get stuck to it, just as she answers the door to a famous lady novelist.
I mean Anne also wants to do well academically and works really hard for those things too, but in terms of looks she is very much concerned with how she appears to the wider world.
@@SunnyMorningPancakes I haven’t actually watched any of the show series does it do the book justice? It was one of my favourite books as a kids
@@rml2765 I am a firm lover of the Megan Follows TV miniseries from the late 80s/ early 90s if your looking to closer to book accuracy in all areas. Anne with an E exists and I have seen all of it, but I feel that they could have made that series and set it during that time period with any orphan child and called it something entirely different and nobody would have noticed more than a passing connection.
@@SunnyMorningPancakes I just finished Anne if Green Gables and working through Anne of Avaonlea. I only just came to the part where she woke up with a tooth ache and took it out on her class. Its the next day and the one boy she swore she would win over with kindness and broke down and whipped because of her sour mood and the mouse in her desk. I'm still floored over his comment about the wuppin' being a man's wuppin'. This little bit of a spoiler just gave me something to look forward to. 😁
@@SunnyMorningPancakes I adore the 80s series, and in my eyes it is the only version of Anne of Green Gables. I tried watching Anne with an E and I did not like at all how they were trying to make it like gritty and dark? Like, no, I'm not watching freaking Anne of Green Gables for flashbacks to Anne getting like beaten by her other foster family?? No thank you.
Despite the other issues with historical dress in Enola Holmes, I love her strategic use of femininity as camouflage. In the books, she addresses this specifically, that dressing as a boy is a bit of a cliche, and her brothers will be expecting it, so instead she will disappear by becoming beautiful.
I completely forgot about that!!
Ooh I love that! I have to read the book :)
I think one of the most infuriating aspects of this trope, for people who genuinely aren't into femininity. Is that, for all that the "Not Like Other Girls" girl is supposed to poohoo girly things, she must also never stray from being a conventionally attractive cis straight girl. She can never want to dress like a boy because she likes looking boyish, oh no. It must be because boy's close are more "practical" or "comfortable" or whatever.
And that's when there is actual men's clothes worn. The number of time I've looked at a character that is supposed to be "not girly" and she's got long flowing hair, make up on, fashionable women's pants, high heeled boots and a fitted women's t-shirt and I'm like "well what do you call it, then?"
Interesting
Jo was written like that in the book. She's loosely based on Louisa May Alcott. She is supposed to be that way.
Gentleman Jack is also based on a real person who dressed that way and was not feminine at all. She wasn't like other women of the time.
Thank you for bringing up Gentleman Jack. Seriously, there were many 'not like the others' throughout history because lgbtqa individuals, despite not being the majority, have always existed and bucking the norms was not a means of being 'quirky' but a means to bravely be true to themselves.
@@foldingwishesf you look at this stuff from a queer perspective if gives off less nlog vibes and more trans masc or at the very least butch vibes
Edit: especially when it comes to the authors themselves
@@foldingwishesAnd in the case of Anne Lister, they explain how being demeaned by her lover, Mariana, hurt her so deeply that she started wearing skirts over breaches/wearing her hair in feminine hairstyles to win Mariana's approval/avoid contempt from society. She would've been even more masculine if Mariana didn't shame her out of it.
She was praising Gentleman Jack though? And I may be wrong but I thought the only issue she had with Jo was the character's costume design in the remake, not the actual character
@@Sophie_PeaYeah... She is saying that dressing Jo in less feminine clothes even outside of her home is historically inaccurate... That's all...
I often feel that the „not like other girls“ in historical movies/ fiction is also meant as a tool to strengthen our belief that we live in a much more advanced society today. When the character - and often the character alone - conveys thoughts that are „common knowledge“ today (corsets being bad for example) it might make us feel good about ourselves, because of what we as a society have achieved since those dark days. An insidious feeling, because it glosses over what we have not achieved.
Society is objectively more advanced than it was in the past.
Corsets are not bad for your health. People with back problems still wear them. Even men used to wear them to protect their backs if their jobs required regularly lifting heavy objects.
@@seresimarta4436 That‘s why I put common knowledge in quotation marks and used corsets being vile as an example for a common misconception perceived to be true by a general audience, because of old info-graphics and what actresses say.
@@juliac3933 More advanced in some ways, distinctly not more advanced in others. There's actually a whole discourse within the study of history about "progress," how it's measured, and whether it's even a valuable concept to begin with. I personally would agree with op, that a focus on scientific and material "progress" allows us to ignore and paper over the human suffering that remains as unfixed as ever.
@@mushroomshrub one good example of thinking we’ve progressed but actually haven’t, is with accessible/adaptive clothing for the disabled. Thing is, most historical solutions work better as adaptive clothing. Better because they’re natural fibres, and modern disability clothing is usually stretch polyester and Velcro. Ugh.
But I wear a corset made of cotton, shifts and chemises that help keep me and my clothes clean, petticoats and skirts that tie up- allowing for both easy access and to be much more variable in size, tie on pockets! Because handbags and wheelchairs don’t mesh well, and I can’t use normal side seam pockets as I can’t access them between my legs and the side of the chair. But I can use a tie on pocket, either under a petticoat or over the top. Stiffening the hems of my skirts keeps them out of the way of my wheels, natural fibres help with my inability to regulate my body temperature, and shifts are the most comfy nighties that exist. Open drawers help when it’s hard to take on and off underwear, and keep you cool and fresh.
So why would I spend way too much money (because anything with the disability label is automatically marked up a couple hundred percent) on adaptive clothing that doesn’t work as well, looks awful, and is far less comfortable? When people in history already came up with solutions that work perfectly? But most people wouldn’t know about historical solutions, because we think that as modern people, we’ve progressed in every way, and anything historical is automatically not as good. It’s very frustrating.
There’s a real skinny bias to that whole “corsets are for sheep, I’m a Progressive Modern Woman” stereotype. If the experiences of busty women with their bras are anything to judge by, I have to imagine that busty women in ye olden days were not champing at the bit to throw out their most supportive garment, no matter how feminist their leanings.
You've hit the nail on the head with this comment.
Yes, I love these independent women tropes where they don’t wear a corset … and then go fox hunting or brag about riding and keeping up with the men. I’m only a C cup but I wear some pretty heavy duty sports bras when I ride.
And there were a few men (one was a doctor, although I can’t recall his name) in the 1800s who wrote about how corsets weren’t good for women
@@michiganscythian2445 yeah literally everyone in history who wrote about "how bad and awful corsets are" were mostly men (who obviously didn't need that extra support or cared about it), while women were the ones designing, making and advocating for corsets, not men.
Funny thing, I noticed that when all these “corsets are the devil” characters are fully dressed, their bust is most definitely supported.
So what were they wearing to support the bust? Bras as we know them today didn’t exist yet. So we’re they wearing corset waists? I don’t think they really existed in the 1860s, but Jo March is clearly wearing something, or we’d know about it in the running scene. And Miss Stacey might have thrown back her corset into the trunk, but what sis she wear instead?
These directors don’t seem to understand that if you’re forgoing corsets, you either jiggle like mad (which for some would be uncomfortable, not to mention we don’t see that in the movies), or they’re wearing something else.
Yes!
One of the annoying things I’ve had to deal with since the surge of people making fun of ‘notlikeothergirls-girls’ is that people now make fun of girls and me (currently unsure on that front) for expressing liking things that aren’t traditionally feminine. I wasn’t comparing myself to anyone- i don’t look down on girls who like traditionally feminine things, i just don’t enjoy partaking in them myself.
Why do people continually seek to pit people against each other? Feminine and non-feminine women are not intrinsically diametrically opposed.
Definitely yes on the respectability politics. Radicals are not eccentrics who failed at reform. Radicals are the sacrificial lambs who died to make reform look like a moderate, reasonable solution.
There are plenty of girls who describe themselves as non-feminine implying that they are better than other girls for that. Hence the "not like other girls" expression. If you say you're not like other girls you're implying that you're better than them
@An Emu I agree. I find it's just as bad on both ends of the scale. I've had girls making fun of me because I love Comics (Marvel and DC) and how I was just trying to make myself seem appealing to guys. I've also had women gossip about how because I love needle arts (knitting and sewing) I'm One of Those Girls. Sometimes it feels like you can't win.
Why are women pitted against each other? BC... patriarchy. If the dominant male culture can set the rules for how women can act/look, then pitting women against one another within those rules keeps women too busy to challenge the men who created the faux conflict, or any other important progressive cause. It's a tactic as old as time. (Obviously there are women who perpetuate this as well, but I consider that internalized sexism/misogyny - and that's a separate topic. Well, related topic but separate to the discussion.)
PS.- I don't mean to disregard non-binary folks from the discussion, I'm just not informed enough about that experience to place it in the dynamic.
I don't think nearly as many people make fun of tomboys as you think they do. Tomboys in the West are still preferred (that is, as long as they're conventionally pretty...) and femininity is still made fun of by men and women alike.
I think another important point in regards to Bloomers, is that they aren't actually based on male dress. They're based on Turkish women's dress. These women were not, in their original intention, denouncing femininity or whatever garbage. It was just interpreted as that later
That is interesting to note there are also references shalwar style pants in Arabia in the late 500- early 600s
Denouncing femininity isn't garbage?? It's fine and good and should be encouraged and supported hello??
@@ardenboshier7431 No
@@ardenboshier7431 Adopting the dress of Turkish WOMEN is denouncing femininity?
Yes! It was Turkish-inspired dress, and it was a logical form of dress.
This reminds me of my favorite knitting book, when the author talks about how she realized that by dismissing traditionally female activities, feminists of her age were actually supporting the idea that "women's work" was inferior to "men's work." She talked about the need to value tradionally female activities as equally legitimate uses of time and energy. Thoroughly enjoyed this video - thanks!
I also had problems accepting my "feminine" hobbies.
I had toxic masculinity as afab.
I identify as nonbinary women - identifying with non-binary helped me shed my Phobia for feminine things. (nonbinary women would probably be something like demi-girls. But I am not a girl, I am an adult).
There's also two videos talking about how Cinderella (Disney movie) is NOT antifeminist.
It is a tale how she survives with classical FEMININE characteristics.
I don't have to be strong and be able to kick other peoples faces in.
I am compassionate and empathetic and this is a strength.
Curious about the knitting book you mention. Can you name drop it?
Yeah, this was something I realised back in the early 2000s, when I was an older teen. A lot of feminism centred on women having value by being able to do the things men did - which was valid in some cases (eg voting, having your own bank account), but in other ways it served to further devalue traditionally feminine things.
Can you share what book this was? Because it sounds like one I should own!
I have so much respect for the author who decided to go off on a based tangent in her knitting book. What a legend
the way some people in the comments are calling these character masculine just because they're not hyperfeminine and say things like "embrace your inner feminity and womanhood💞🌺". no wonder masculine women feel alienated from other girls.
You put into words some of my problems with the comments, 9 times out of 10 the ‘tomboys’ in shows aren’t even masculine, just not hyper feminine.
@@crispyshallots668 right? we actually don't have any rep for masculine women in media, so seeing people say stuff like "we need more female characters embracing their femininity" feels soo weird. (btw, nice adora pfp)
The thing is, what we consider as a tomboy now is not the same as what was considered a tomboy then. So it's difficult to portray a tomboyish girl from a past era - either you portray her overtly masculine which will be historically inaccurate or you portray her accurately but modern audiences don't catch on / find her too feminine still.
@@mikanchan322 Thank you omfg. These people are ridiculous and don't know at all what they're talking about. Anne Lister and Jo March are masculine for their time period in the adaptations discussed here.
@@mikanchan322 a tomboy now is a nonbinary transmasculine person 🤦🏽♂️ So yeah, we definitely need representation of woman who doesn't follow traditional womanhood, without actually rejecting their sex!
I'm pretty sure part of the basis of 'not like other girls' being lauded by men, is only valid for women who are attractive. In my many years of life I've seen 'unconventional' women disliked by both males and females and harshly excluded. I will grant that there are some instances where 'being one of the boys' is accepted, but it usually comes with some pretty harsh limitations (primarily acceptance only in very narrow areas). Although I understand that this was sparked by films and television and it's specifically about feminism, most women who are 'not like other girls' in the media, are at worst, Hollywood ugly and if they were plain or unattractive I believe they would be disavowed by both sides.
I'd really like to see a world where you are allowed to express your particular taste in clothing or personal grooming without being ostracized by either side. I'm glad women are embracing the right to be completely 'feminine', but I wish those women who do not want to participate in the clothing/makeup rituals were accepted as well.
It really depends on culture. For example, growing up in the Netherlands you have to go to school by bike (if you are like the other 80%). If you have to go a longer distance, there is about a 50% chance of rain. Makeup will wash off, sometimes I wished I had brought a towel. The wind will mess your hair up unless it is tied, so lots of girls have ponytails, buns or braids. If they do wear their hair down, it is often in a very simple style, as they probably just switched from a ponytail (and no one brings curlers to school). So while outfits can be anything, we don't grow up with the pressure of full face make up. We see a lot of natural puffy red faces, and while teens are cruel, at least we saw human faces.
Later in life make up is not a requirement for work. A lot of my co workers wear it, a lot dont. Even in a job where you see dozens of people a day. Even while we are expected to look professional.
In the USA you don't have that habit of biking through storms to get to work or school, so they can have higher expectations of make up and hair. But here anything besides mascara is just unrealistic, so that saves me a lot of time in the morning.
Yes.
@@MissMoontree - Thank you for that interesting slice of Dutch culture. In the USA, there are girls and women who wear heavy make-up, including heavy false eyelashes, but be assured that many, many women do not wear make-up at all or very little and rarely.
Amen!!
Oh, it's absolutely this. Think about all the "tomboy gets a girly makeover" scenes. She's got to be One of The Boys when the boys don't want to hear about fashion or be scolded for making crude jokes, but she's got to be conventionally feminine and pretty when the boys want to ogle her. Girly-girls annoy men because they care about things men don't care about, but we can't have a butch female main character because she won't be attractive to men when men want her to be attractive. They'll get you coming and going.
Not historical but I once read a really good and interesting article looking at Dolly Parton as a feminist icon. Its basis was that she was someone who had fully embraced her femininity, and actually used it to her advantage while still being a powerful and very successful businesswoman, all without having to resort to traditional masculine tropes.
Don't think I'm explaining that well but I thought it was a worth point. Masculinity or masculine expression should not be seen as the only or definitive concept of what it means to be strong, powerful or independent.
It’s also important to note Dolly’s specific fashion ideal that she always tells the story about is a specific type of woman denigrated for being vain, shallow, and loose. She’s not just being traditionally acceptably feminine, she’s being (often treated as) unacceptably HYPERfeminine.
I was thinking about Dolly Parton as a feminist icon the other day, after someone online had mentioned the need for a movie where Dolly and Elvira are long lost sisters who team up to fight evil, lol. And, you know, they could both be glamorous and tough, compassionate and assertive; together they could easily have stopped evil in its tracks ten minutes in and then spent the rest of the run time cracking jokes in a makeover montage. I'd watch that movie!
@@HidakaSatsuki yes her lovely story of how she saw the beautiful woman in town, who her mum said was trash, and Dolly thought "I want to be trash when I'm older"
It's actually something I love about Dolly is how up front she is about her image and herself. She could, and had been ridiculed for her appearance, but instead of being belittled by it, she turns it into a joke that she makes, she takes the power away from the other person by doing that and move the focus away from that negativity and onto her making herself and her positive attitude the focus.
She uses her hyperfeminity as a sign and tool of her own power
@@asenseofyarning5614 I saw a meme about that too the other day! I would love that film to be made it would be brilliant fun
@@thehumblespinster Did the meme also say something about dark witch/light witch, or did I make that up?
Anne With an E is my favorite show, and I love the book. I would usually get mad at someone talking ‘bad’ about it (which I know that you are not necessarily talking bad). I love almost everything about Anne With an E, and from the first season, when she longs for puffed sleeves and the latest fashions, I thought that it would be mostly historical accurate. But then in season 3, she makes the comment about the corset. I was really disappointed with the writers for adding that in, that just wasn’t in character for Anne. If Anne loved her puffed sleeves, Diana’s dresses, her blue dress in the final episode, than it is shown how unlike Anne it is to bring down a corset, that was never even talked about in her time. I love Anne With an E more than any show, but this part just really made me mad. But on another note, most of the outfits in AWAE are historically accurate. The the fashion designers did an incredible job, but it was the writers who messed it up. (Sorry this was so long lol)
Okay, I’m here a year later and I just realized something about Anne’s corset that she wears (when she was going to the orphanage). The corset she wears here wasn’t made for her body. I also believe that it also wasn’t the same type of corset that girls start wearing when they are here age. In the last episode, however, she puts on her own corset that she gets to wear at college, and she doesn’t have anything to say about it. So, maybe she only thought it was uncomfortable because it wasn’t made for her.
Yes,I absolutely agree with you!I felt disappointed as well!This seems kinda off-character for Anne.Also,AWAE is my favourite show as well,and you got a new subscriber :)
I had originally written a comment on that, but reading through the comment section I found yours and I wanted to say I feel the same way.
I really tried to write it off as "Anne is wearing a corset for the first time, so it's probably uncomfortable, especially considering it was not made for her", but re-watching the little cut from the scene in the video made me realize that, just like Anne's line "A skirt is not an invitation", it was thrown in there to kind of make a point that she's not "conforming to this patriarchal torture device" and it really bums me out. I think there are subtler ways to convey it and you don't need to demonize a corset in order to do this, much less take out Anne's inherent joy in beautiful clothes and feeling like a grown-up, feeling pretty in something.
Thanks for the comment, you expressed it far better than I did!
@@hollynotholy I haven't seen past season 1 but I've really enjoyed the show so far. So I haven't seen that clip before but I feel like an argument could be made that maybe it's comparable to wearing your first bra? It was never torture or anything and these days I barely even register I'm wearing one but it was definitely a little uncomfortable at first. And they can be uncomfortable if you wear one in the wrong size which as you said is the case for Anne here with her corset. So I totally agree that the line was almost definitely thrown in as a nudge to the audience to say "don't worry I'm still a feminist" but it could be taken as just, it's a level of constriction she isn't used to in the way maybe a lot of people were the first time they had to start wearing a bra? I could be totally wrong though, just a thought :)
@@holliegordon-jones3763 Hey, thanks for your comment! Like I mentioned above, at first I shrugged it off as “well, it’s not her corset and it’s her first time using it, so it’s probably why it’s so uncomfortable”. I bet a lot of AFAB people found bras uncomfortable the first time they wore it; I sure preferred those stretchy pieces of strapless tops instead of wired bras back when I had next to no boobs.
The only thing about the clip is the “how do you do this, wearing it all the time??” like she cannot even imagine getting used to it right upon first wearing it. Like I said, like the “a skirt is not an invitation”, it felt out of place. It wasn’t needed to pass the message and they could’ve changed the tone with her saying something along the lines of “do you ever get used to it?” or something; it would seem more like an inexperienced young woman trying these things for the first time.
It can be read both ways, though.
Besides, in season 3 corsets take quite a spotlight, with even Josie Pye having something to say about it. Her mother wants her to wear a corset to appear grown up in a certain episode and she expresses discomfort with the idea of using something that is not yet appropriate for her age (15). I wish Abby had addressed this scene as well, because even though we know most women wore some kind of corset ever since childhood, it made me curious to know if in Canada they had other traditiona around it. And it kind of takes points away from the “only the I’m Not Like Other Girls girs are not keen on corsets”, cuz if Anne is NLOG, Josie Pye is definitely A Girl, being put almost in direct contrast with Anne sometimes.
Besides, I don’t agree with everything Abby said in the video, this is just the bit that actually made me sad to reinspect upon rewatching the little cut from the episode. I’m pretty sure Anne is wearing a corset later in the series, especially near the finale, when she’s going to university and her clothes get significantly more grown-up. That last blue dress was so stunning I’m still not over it and I’m pretty sure she’s properly understructured. There’s even a scene with her pulling up her skirts and petticoats that made me effing alarmed she was gonna show too much because damn, she pulled it HIGH to make a run.
Also, corsets are way more comfortable than most bras. The only bras I can tolerate are 100% cotton, no lace, no underwire. If I had the money, I'd get a dozen stays custom made (then again, if I got rich I'd never wear modern clothes again).
In the UK (we have uniforms for school in about 98% of schools) there have been a lot of 'gender neutral uniform policies' introduced in the past few years. Usually this comes after boys protest not being allowed to wear shorts in hot summer weather while girls are allowed skirts or school dresses. Or after girls have protested being forced to wear skirts (usually above the knee pleated situations) and long socks or tights (not the good wooly kind) in winter. Some schools still don't allow girls to wear trousers (which is technically illegal). Unfortunately the 'gender neutral' uniform is usually the 'boys' uniform. So instead of allowing everyone the option of skirts or shorts or trousers, the option for traditionally feminine clothing is removed entirely, because obviously boys shouldn't have the option to wear skirts that would be outrageous (heavy sarcasm, and I see you Scotland). Which I feel definitely feeds into the idea that traditionally feminine clothing is lesser and only a certain vain type of woman would choose to wear them.
What always confuses me is that a kilt is fine that's ok but a skirt is not it's outrageous then 🤷🏻♀️
@@laralicari914 not to mention that the idea of men not wearing skirts (again Scotland I'm so sorry) is a very modern and eurocentric one. I am including North America in this due to the majority of cultural values of the population of North America stemming from European migration.
If life was fair, men would wear skirts and ride sidesaddle.
@@irlikingpie I think my point is more that I'd rather that when approaching 'gender neutral' ideals that didn't involve neutrality being equated with traditionally male clothing. In the same way the 'I'm not like other girls trope' is often portrayed through eschewing traditionally feminine clothing.
I'm not sure about the side saddle issue as I've never ridden a horse, I only know it doesn't work for bicycles.
@@SunnyMorningPancakes I think I was quoting famous feminist icon Robert A. Heinlein. Forgot the sarcasm tag. :)
When I was in college, someone actually told me that I was an "unusual feminist" for liking dresses and heels. I've been pushing back against the idea that feminist can't be feminine ever since.
It’s not a NLOG trope when the characters - and often real people (like Anne Lister) were actively pushing against the societal standards for women in both behavior and dress.
Though I think to a degree it definitely is a NLOG trope that those are the characters filmmakers choose to present, and present this specific side to them.
Yes like please Anne Lister didn’t dress like that to be an edgelady she was literally just a lesbian 💀💀💀
@@beth12svist In the case of Anne Lister, it wasn’t a trope. She was a real person and that was her real life as a lesbian in the early 19th century. She very much was not like other girls. Her individuality and striking appearance left an impression on everyone who met her.
@@atlroxmysox98 And the video does present her series as a better example; I was really referring more to _characters,_ i.e. fictional ones. :-)
@@beth12svist Ah, well you can understand my confusion considering you responded to a comment more about Anne Lister :-)
Not many people can be bothered to read the book, Little Women, but I have done. Jo’s clothing is actually described quite a lot throughout the books, as are all the sisters. She’s only ever described as wearing men’s clothing when they’re doing their plays, which are only ever performed in private among family and very intimate friends.
However, she is often described as wearing styles or clothing that are considered strange or off-trend, but not excessively so. She wears a huge wide brimmed hat on a picnic, and it’s definitely off trend but the context makes it clear this is considered a silly choice rather than a socially transgressive fashion choice.
There’s also the point of the story when she cuts off her her hair and styles it like a man’s hair. This is probably the most socially transgressive thing Jo does to her appearance, and she only does it because she sells her hair to get money so her mother can travel across country to care for her wounded and ill father fighting for the union in the US civil war. So the circumstances were very extreme, and that’s probably why she could get away with it.
Other than that, Jo always wears dresses. She does have a nasty habit of ripping/burning/trashing them in general, though.
True about the hair, but then there would have been some girls and women with short hair around occasionally as sometimes it was recommended to cut hair short if you had a fever. Still would have been shocking though.
And her hair was considered her best trait and she loved her hair. That's why it was a sacrifice.
THANK YOUU for adding in the bloomer rant 🙌🏻🙌🏻
Yep 👍 ALWAYS thought the bloomer thing was too much of an insider identity thing - like the bra burning thing in the 70s just not practical (or practicable🙄) for SO MANY women and really not an attractive look! Like Angie Dickinson said ‘I dress for women and undress for men’ bloomers were not a solution to a problem anyone had - they were an identity badge, so women didn’t love them and everyone thought they looked odd. As a side note historically women seem quite happy to embrace all sorts of weird unflattering styles when it suits (yoga pants with no pockets🤭 1980s Mom jeans😣) but politically charged fashion is for the committed faithful (think lesbian fashion etc)
@@clareryan26402 days ago I bought yoga pants with a pocket. AND MY ENTIRE PHONE FITS IN THE POCKET. I am happy. I also love my mom jeans, and my corset, and my walking skirt and waistcoat, and frilly dresses, and sneakers.
@@beckstheimpatient4135 that’s wonderful😁 we should all wear clothes that spark joy (thank you Ms Kondo for an awesome concept so beautifully phrased)👍👍
@@the-birbo men dressing up as women vs trans isn't the same thing as far as I understand, especially in history. So I'm not sure it's fair to assume she meant specifically trans women in that comment.
Hi Bernadette!!! I hope you're doing well. I love your channel. 🦋🙂
While I understand the frustration about the corset comment from Anne in Anne with and E, I can actually forgive that more than others. She didn't rant about it being a torture device, just an off handed remark that she wasn't sure why she had been so excited to wear one. It really reminded me about when I got my first bra. I actually did a good deal more complaining about my first bra(which is funny thinking back since it was basically a baby sports bra and couldn't be much more comfortable) than Anne did about her corset.
I see Anne as being portrayed as neurodiverse, especially in that series.
@@Mariathinking I’m not sure what that has to do with the corset
It’s also not her corset and not fitted to her. So it makes sense she is uncomfortable lol
@Fart lots of neurodiverse ppl have sensory issues that make wearing specific underwear (both modern and historical) more of a struggle then normal.
I'm of the autistic that prefers to be Held Firmly, so I'm underwired to hell and back, love a corset, tights, high-waisted jeans with a belt, hightop tightly laced converse etc, and I have friends who only wear sandals, crocs, and uggs/fluff lined crocs bc theory hate their feet being squeezed + socks in general, or all sorts of other preferences
Hell, I have a friend who refuses to hug me when I'm wearing favorite velvet dresses bc they hate the texture of velvet That Much 😅
@@doctorwholover1012 I'm the total opposite. I like firm fitting underwear, but hate bras and tight female clothes. Loved the 1990s of being titi-free and wearing baggie clothes. I was rocking the sun-in and parachut pants in the late 1990s. Hated the feminine stuff and wore boys' clothes. Still prefer husky boy jeans, bigger packets... oh yea. I would've loved the 18th century womens' clothing though because of massive pockets. The parachut pants of the day.
Someone once pointed out that if Persephone can be Queen of the Underworld AND the Goddess of Spring, then so can you. So can HE. So can THEY. I'm a Southern belle but my sister was born and raised in the Bronx. We heavily influenced each other. Both of us can make you tea when you call on us, but also fight you for talking smack. "Clutch your pearls!" is a well-known Southern phrase that means someone has not acted like a lady, but she and I coined the phrase, "The pearls are coming off!" to indicate we're about to throw down.
throw down ... YEAUP! ......means business!
If you go far enough back into proto-Greek mythology, Dread Persephone was a Cthonic god who was ruler of the underworld, spring, the oceans, and other things, all without a man. Hades was added much, much, much later.
@@irlikingpie women who controlled crop growth and earth's ability to produce food.... I so love Demeter in the myths as well.
@@ReneesatItAgain and Persephone is the ruler of the entire universe, if you think about it. Everything will come to her domain to stay, eventually.
@@irlikingpie I know ... I'm a sucker for Mamas! Especially, far enough back to grieving matriarchs ... mythological, historical... all. Tisk! Fodder! Oh dear! Are we off the topic? I bet Abby won't mind! Whippersnappers...❤them! #Abbycoxinmyclassroom
My pet peeve is the girl who doesn't sew because she's not like other girls. That's like a modern woman who doesn't know how to do dishes. It's not quirky, it's a lack of a basic life skill.
OR, raised by someone without these "life skills" ! Yeah, "home ec" was TORTURE !
Agreed, like I don't want to/like to cook, but I know how
@@akeylawallace4420 And yet there were a number of people I knew in college, most of them female, who were PROUD that they couldn't cook, as if it was a badge to be honored. I'd be curious how many of them wound up learning at a later point because they decided it was a life skill they needed.
I was happy not get learn a lot of this stuff, because my father treated my mother like trash and as a woman, she was to shut up and do all this when working the same hours he did, and then he could criticise her because He was the Man. I have now learned it, though I still can't enjoy it. All of my children know they are expected to know how to do dishes and they can learn whatever they like. I suck at cooking because I'm very analytical but if there is something wrong I can't be creative, I can only follow rules, but for that reason am not bad at cross-stitch. The more you learn, the better chances you have to find your callings. I'm great at assembling and programming computers, I'm not at all nurturing, but luckily my husband can do that OK. I'm good at wisdom and driving and making people think, and I wish I could do more traditionally girly stuff sometimes, but so long as we all have as many life skills as we can, I'm good. And early trauma like mine can definitely cause problems. A lot of women were not treated well, and wanting to escape that fate by earning more money and living as differently as possibly is understandable.
I had a 73 year old sitter who never got taught how to cook she had to be taught by her roommates. I once saw a quote said " women don't just belong in the kitchen men don't just belong In the kitchen -everyone belongs in the kitchen the kitchen has food". I AGREE.
I'm sorry but if you go and say that Anne with an E perpetrates the 'no like the other girls' stereotype I can only think that you entirely missed the point of the whole show. One of the many things that awae did wonderfully was exactly celebrating women as multifaceted beings and their individuality, no matter how different they may be one from the other. No one ever put down other girls in the show for liking corsets and feminine things, there is no 'other girls'. There are different women with different personalities and preferences and they're all valid for it.
awae Anne loves dresses, puffed sleeves, and flowers, and all things feminine, she just doesn't love a corset for her.
Maybe it's time to accept that just like not everyone hated/hates corsets, not everyone likes them either. People are allowed to feel uncomfortable while wearing tight, rigid clothing, and not appreciate 'the support' (just like Aunt Josephine says to Anne in that scene you used in the clip). Some might find it comfortable, but that doesn't mean that it's the same for everyone, and whether you like wearing one or not it's ok. The point is that it's not ok to be forced to dress a certain way and be criticized for choosing for yourself.
I don't see how condemning women for not wanting to wear a corset and accusing them of suffering from the 'not like the other girl' syndrome is any more helpful than condemning them for wanting to wear one.
I agree. I think AWAE as more of an example of this done right. I was especially impressed with the older women..
The progressive women rejecting Marilla at first for being too out there is something I think most shows wouldn't have the (lady)balls to do. I loved how Rachel perpetuated some harmful views(or at least ones that would be seen that way by Marilla/Anne) while still being progressive as the only women at the table. Marilla was very progressive but still feminine. I loved that Dianas mother was very traditional but felt it was important she was included in financial decisions and pushed for more communication with her husband. Basically there was a nice spectrum, everyone had nuance.🤌🏾
i agree! i think this is not a well-considered video, and it misses the point of the trope "not like other girls" entirely. NLOG is NOT a female character being gender-nonconforming, wanting something beyond societal expectations for women, enjoying 'masculine' activities, or disliking corsets/heels. it IS a female character putting other women down, writers not bothering to characterize their leading women beyond "she doesn't wear makeup (ew) but is still smoking hot, obvi". it is an issue of poor, lazy writing. telling someone's story because they are unusual, because they differ from what society deemed (and still often deems) palatable, is something else entirely, and still too rare imo, especially in historical film and tv. none of the examples pulled here fall into the NLOG trope, and anne with an e is certainly far from a flatly written tv show. i think abby should maybe consider why her list of problematically written characters is made up entirely of gnc and queer(-coded) and neurodivergent(-coded) characters.
I think you're right in the sense that it would have been like that in reality, but the problem Abby was addressing is that IN MEDIA we never see scenes with corsets as something that's positive. At best it's just not mentioned, just like wearing a bra today not always calls for complaints of how uncomfortable they are. So yes, not every woman would have wanted to wear one. But in movies we only see heroines who hate the corset, and these are the (progressive, liberated) women we're supposed to root for. The women who embrace their femininity and take an active interest in fashion are often presented as vapid, if not downright mean girls. If you only ever depict corsets as tools of oppression, it's not a fair representation either and it leads to modern people truly believing that corsets equalled tight-lacing and torture.
@@AW-uv3cb Which is exactly what I said that Anne with an E doesn't do, because it explicitly presents both perspectives and nuance. My comment is explicitly about anne with an e and how it was grossly and purposefully misinterpreted and accused of portraying a vision that it's opposite to what it actually depicts.
First off, your re-enactment of "the corset scene" was brilliant.
My feelings on the "not like other girls" trope is a bit complicated. Growing up, I found it very difficult to relate to many of my female classmates, because I was not into typically girly things like makeup, fashion, romance stories, etc. Most of the typical teenage girl interests struck me as shallow and very focused on attracting male attention, which to my mind was anti-feminist. Teenage me was a total nerd who played quiz bowl, tried to actively defy what I perceived as sexist expectations for me to look pretty and be "girly", and had a lot of male friends. I have literally been described as "not like other girls". As I have gotten older, I have started to realize that women can have typically feminine interests without those interest being about conforming to sexist gender norms or desperately getting male validation. Obviously this isn't a shocking revelation, but after dealing with girls in high school who said things like "only ugly girls care about feminism", I had a strong distrust of girly interests. So I agree that the "not like other girls" trope is misogynistic, but I can also see why it appeals to so many girls that feel like they don't fit in. It takes the thing that makes you an outsider and turns it into a positive trait.
Similar experience for me. I think it’s very common for young people to “other” a popular behavior they don’t follow and look down upon it. I regret looking down on girls my age for “girly” interests because I found them shallow. Now I realize that almost NOBODY, not even the popular girls, felt like they fit in. But I also don’t think I had the capacity as a teenager to reconcile that. I stand by Abby’s biggest take-away here, though: we need to ditch the trope in media and move to better, less-lazy storytelling techniques.
Well said, I feel you!
You speak from my soul, as I behaved in a similar way.
Only during the 2020 isolation, when I took the time to reflect on myself and/or stopped giving a flying fluff, things changed - for example, I dropped my "I'd rather die than wear a skirt"-mentality, because they are easy to sew, quite comfy and have soo much space for pockets.
Everyone is unique, and although I did relate to the "not like other girls"-trope very much, growing up I realised how harmful and misogynistic it is to reject/demonize "girly" traits - especially during people's teenage years, where everyone is somewhat insecure and unexperienced af.
Now, I look up to people who don't give a damn, which is much more relaxing.
As feminists, we should spend our energy on fighting issues causing gender inequality, not on fighting other women and what they like, even if it's deemed "girlish" or if we don't like it taste-wise.
I had cringy phases that swung from extremely "tomboy" to extremely "girly" and back again
My experience was similar. I was frequently referred to as “not like other girls” as well. I actively hid my “girly” interests as I primarily had male friends, finding my contemporaries too silly and gossipy. I desired to be taken seriously, and any “girly” tendencies I showed invited a tsunami of teasing.
I know it's not a historical drama, but this is exactly why Elle Woods in Legally Blonde is a legend
That movie was totally responsible for me finally making peace with wanting to look feminine while being a civil engineer. Not an easy feat getting respect but I'm happy to say I made It to the main techincal position while still wearing frills and makeup
Yes, THANK YOU. I think the impact of that movie is so underrated.
I can be a STEM and still love glitter. I even specially bought myself a pink calculator in Uni, because using that always made me smile a little 😊
@@becci8099I talked myself out of a floral Vera Bradley computer bag and instead bought myself a pink alarm clock when I started my PhD. I guess it felt like a safe way to express femininity because no one would see it. 😕
@anaceciliasoares4993 and what if women don't want to do that? What's wrong with not being girly?
@@ems3991 no problem at ALL! The problem is us being considered inferior for doing it.
I don’t want to be rude, but the statement of “historically feminist women dressing masculine was too distracting and disrupting for society” is kind of talking against the point of masculinity in women being celebrated? I might have missed something, though!
I think the point is less about talking against masculinity in women being celebrated and more about it being to be "better" or "cool" you can ONLY celebrate the masculine qualities. She had a small sarcastic bit about how you could never be both. The other point she was trying to make is that the historical costume dramas should be more historically accurate in their use of feminism for the period.
EDIT: And also that the philosophical side of feminism should be held in a greater light for these characters rather than the fashionable side.
Here’s the thing: It’s literally part of the book (and of Louisa May Alcott’s life) is that Jo did NOT live within the bounds of her society and she WAS punished for it!!!! When she and Amy go to call on people, Jo is said to have her hair lose and messy and to wear a manly jacket, and this is the reason why Aunt May doesn’t take her to Europe, because a lot of women HAVE been revealing against gender norms since forever (see the Sweet Polly Oliver) and they ALSO get punished for it! To say that the Bloomer movement was doom to fail because it is too contrarian and we need to change society from the inside is honestly a bit insulting, because it relies in respectability politics, those women, like women today, should have been allowed to be masculine! And Louisa May Alcott actually talked about this herself! And I say this as a very feminine woman: Society does hate femininity, but it hates gender non comforming women even more
💛
Yes
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The biggest reasons given for their aunt choosing Amy rather than Jo is that Jo said she hates doing favors, hates speaking French, and is in general unpleasant. So she asks Amy to go instead. Would you want to take someone who is rude on a potentially year(s) long trip? Cuz I know I wouldn't.
I'm not sure what I think of all of this but I appreciate your thoughts
As a divorcee in my 40s who is now a grad student studying forensics (chemistry/psychology), I have to say that I related to this more than I expected to. Many students on campus rely on jeans/t-shirts/hoodies in large part to deal with variable weather and being outside to walk from building to building. It's also just more comfortable. For some reason, this whole female-studying-masculine-topics thing expressed itself in my study accessories. I would make sure my notebooks, 3-ring binders, backpack, etc. were usually black or gray. I distinctly remember thinking that I did not want to stand out as "too feminine." I was not attempting to be quirky or not-like-the-other girls. I was denying myself. That is never a good thing!
Why? As time went on, I noticed there were often as many if not more women in my traditional science classes/labs than men. We were there, and we were clearly well-represented in number. Why not use a pastel-colored spiral notebook? Why not use other study materials that may have been considered more feminine in design/print? If we liked it, then we should use it! Using a notebook with a beautiful floral print on the cover did not detract from my intelligence. Instead, its beauty made me smile for a moment before getting to work on my studies.
I don't know where I got this idea from of denying my femininity. Perhaps, it was from shows/movies you were referring to. I love historical dramas! I also agree that these tropes have slowly crept into these shows over the past few years. The point is that denying my love of beauty, even traditionally feminine beauty, was a denial of part of myself. So, I started buying more feminine items--and no one cared! More importantly, it made me happy. I realize that I may be taking this topic and stretching it to the extreme, but I believe we should embrace who we are. Being a woman is a very powerful and beautiful thing! Denying who we are to make some point does nothing (your example of the bloomers comes to mind).
Wherever it is that we get these ideas, I agree with you, Abby! It is not helpful. It is not necessary. Frankly, it is a denial of who we are as women which is a beautiful thing. It should be embraced, not disregarded--even with something as silly as notebooks or other school accessories. Thanks again, Abby! This video helped me realize part of what I had been doing years ago, and I am so glad that I stopped that silliness a long time ago.
When I was studying (and later working) EMS, I made the choice to buy everything I possibly could in eye melting hot pink, in hopes of keeping my things from wandering off. It only helped a little, but somewhere along the way I made the shocking realization that I actually *like* pink. And flowery. And glittery. And lacy. I'm thirty-seven dang years old, and I'm finally going through my princess phase!
Besides just being annoying AF in our movies, the 'not like other girls' trope does us such a disservice, making us think the only way to be mature, respectable adults is by distancing ourselves as much as humanly possible from all things "" girly "" no matter what our sex or gender might be. Buy yourself that pink notebook if it makes you happy, and tell anyone who doesn't like it where they stick their opinion. ❤
This video really resonated with me also. I think I’m probably just a bit older. But I strongly remember growing up in the 80s, the overwhelming idea that women who were into being “girly” or into fashion, would not be taken seriously or could not be intellectual or a feminist. It really struck me watching this how I think second wave feminists from the 70s seemed to decide the way to get equality was to be more like men, or at least reject traditional femininity. Makes me think of the awful suits many women wore in the 80s with the shirts with bows, an obvious nod to dressing like men while not being exactly like men. Even into the 90s I remember attitudes like if you dress very feminine you can’t be a “real” lesbian. Anyway, this really struck me how much 70s feminism influenced Gen Xrs (including many probably making the shows mentioned) into thinking “real feminists” reject feminine clothes and fashion. Your story even makes me think of Legally Blonde - where it’s completely unheard of for a girly girl like Elle to get into law school and then thrive. I’m glad that it seems younger people are getting past this.
@@grannyweatherwax8005 I'd love to see Very Real Lesbian 😁 Jessica Kellgren-Fozard address that idea in her signature uber feminine vintage dresses!
@@sans-seraph Oh my god! I was a contractor in shipyards and I covered all of my tools in like glitter and flowers so that no one would steal them! But also because it was cuter, I mean, why are tools so ugly? I mean, no one ever stole anything of mine 🤷♀️.
Thanks, y'all! I thought it was just me, but clearly it's not. I'm at the point where I don't care what other people think about anything I do. Abby's video stirred up something in me that I didn't expect. I had no choice but to write. That said, my hope is that we as more experienced generations will be able to encourage younger women to be themselves without apology. Have a great day, all! 🙏😊
I feel like the harsh criticism of Jo's dress in the 2019 adaptation of Little Women ignores that Amy is presented as just as much of a forward thinking, intelligent, and ambitious young woman. They foil each other in their explorations of how women could find power, influence, and happiness during their time.
@Meradianstar 42 aw i loved it..... why do all the comments on this video and fashion videos say this cuz its a stark difference from videos on the film world. youre ofc entitled to your opinion, but i find it interesting how people in fashion say they didnt like it when people in film do... maybe its because film people are able to see the directing and cinematography and film related things while fashion people just notice the costuming
@Meradianstar 42 i saw that about 2 years ago as well, and i have to disagree. i also dont want to write out a whole essay but to not go too in detail 1. the ending of 2019 was so much deeper if you compare it to other versions and it is so intertwined and well researched with Alcott's life in small and big details. 2. I love saoirse and her performance was excellent and she is my favorite actress and her oscar nom was well deserved. 3. the movie introduced me to film and its the movie that gave me a magical spark to life. Greta Gerwig made me feel smth with this film, and its because of her that im interested in the film industry and want to become a screenwriter or director someday. So even if another version comes along, i dont care, Its because of this 3rd reason, that this movie will always be my favorite. Ironically, i didnt even know there were other versions of little women before this, so you can thank this 2019 version for introducing a whole new generation to the wonders of little women.
This movie made me want to be a filmmaker one day, and no current filmmaker can EVER part with that film in their life. This movie did what the other versions could never do: inspire me not only in the theater, but IN LIFE
@Meradianstar 42 (second reply) alright, i know I said in my first reply no essays, but please read why the 94 can never touch the 2019 version FOR ME. yeah, my point is, I dont care how good of an argument some person trys to make arguing that the 94 version is better. I watched that video a couple years ago almost, and it doesnt matter. To say it straightly, the 1994 version isnt the movie that made me interested in film. The 2019 version did. So no matter what people say... nothing can ever reach the 2019 version. Why? Everyone who likes the 1994 version the best just talks about how they liked the actors or dialogue or whatever- but that's all in the theater, or in your mind, or smth you write about on youtube. Never beyond. But the 2019 is what literally inspired me to write my own screenplays. Its what brought me to the film world. Can the 1994 version do that? Well not for me.
if a film like the 2019 little women can inspire a lazy ass person like me to do smth beyond the theater, then its for sure smth special. And nothing can ever beat that
@Meradianstar 42 im sorry, i dont have discord :( but that's fine because we all have different opinions and no movie ever has had an audience where 100% of everyone liked it.
Great points. As a woman in tech, too many of the guys were only ok with tomboys. Femininity gave them the vapors.
Engineer here. Luckily I can play "one of the guys" pretty well, until any time I try to push back or be assertive (which I do need to do at times since it's part of my job), at which point I'm automatically deemed "an aggressive b***h" since women are supposed to be 'soft and passive' (and yes I've been told both by management)
Edit: sorry all, to tie back to the point, usually jeans/trousers and a cardigan over a basic top are my go tos, I wore a dress once and was so uncomfortable with the reactions I haven't since (I've never worn makeup or even nail polish in, I'm not sure how either of those would go over)
Yes!! When I was majoring in math, one professor seriously had it out for me. Incidentally, that was the same year that I began to dress better (I was the only one in the class who did). He praised the shlumfy boys so much in that class, even though I had the top grades. There’s no meritocracy, even among the nerd club.
yeah when i moved from a girls school to studying engineering at uni i felt obliged to stop wearing my more ambitiously fashionable outfits and adopt the jeans and a top uniform of all the guys in my lectures and courses. Some of that was practicality but some of it was also wanting to avoid more weird comments. I was already aware about standing out just by being a woman in those spaces (so i kinda understand the mentality of the woman mentioned in the video who stopped wearing bloomer fashion)
As another woman in tech for the last 25 years I can absolutely verify this. I would act differently at work just to make things work with all the men I worked with. It’s exhausting.
Any tips for a guy going into a 99.6% female dominated role? I’d usually consider myself feminine but in this line of work my inherit masculinity is likely to stick out
When I was a kid, I called myself a tomboy in a dress because I loved wearing froofy dresses, but I was also active and a dork. I'm pretty sure every girl is "not like other girls" - we're all boss and awesome. And dorky. Can't forget dorky.
Yeah, I get that. I was often bullied when I wore a skirt that wasn't fashionably short and snug or the far more common jeans and t-shirt that seemed to be the only acceptable options in the 90s. Don't understand why clothes must either be skimpy or masculine to be acceptable.
Most don’t hate being femme, we hate how *society* hates on those who present as femme. Our society also tends to hate anything and everything that teenage girls like, which is bound to screw up your self identity during its formative years.
There's a Margaret Mead quote that comes to mind: "You are absolutely unique. Just like everyone else."
I would argue that the "I'm not like other girls" attitude jo (2019) has is kind of the point? because meg and amy, who embody more typically female roles, put jo in her place for belittling their dreams and behaviour ("just because my dreams are different to yours doesn't mean they're unimportant") and at the end of the film, jo has fully embraced the domestic (feminine) sphere with the public (masculine) sphere by writing her book (masculine) about family life (feminine) whilst running a school (masculine) with her family (feminine). This can be seen with her clothes; throughout the film she dresses more masculine, until the very last scene where her mode of dress is distinctly more feminine (apron, pink dress, necklace etc). In other words, she has fulfilled her potential and ultimate happiness through the embodiment of both gender performances i.e., not subscribing to one binary, allowing her to see the value in both.
What annoys me about this "not like other girls" trope is that there are almost always things to gripe about in current fashion, and ways to differ against prevailing fashions that are true to the period. You don't have to drag in some anachronistic gripe about corsets when people at the time were talking about some fad from Paris, or how the fashions of the 1800s made people who grew up in the 1780s feel almost naked.
Great point! If they want to have a character who's not into fashion, they can find more historically accurate ways to portray that without falling into the lazy "evil corset" thing.
Yeah, you can have a character not being up-to-date on fashion and still have them wear clothes that would otherwise not stand out. I'm reminded of Molly in Wives and Daughters, who especially in the beginning does not really wear very fashionable clothes, and when compared to Cynthia she is pretty behind on fashion. In this case not so much because Molly hates fashion or whatever, but more so that she doesn't really have a female friend or role model who can help her, and the ones she does have aren't all that fashionable themselves. While she does end up with more fashionable clothes, she still keeps her own style, which is pretty toned down, especially when considering Cynthia.
I want to like this x 1,000
yes exactly! It’s just lazy writing. It also distracts from the fact that there are still modern equivalents of corsets that are just as restrictive if used incorrectly, and the invention of the bra didn’t magically “free” women.
It’s perfectly doable to represent masculine women without also negging on feminine women. It’s also a much richer conversation to do so.
Gentleman Jack is great at this. Though Anne Lister herself is proudly gender non-conforming and different characters in the cast have different reactions to her according to their own personality and level of progressiveness, the costume department doesn't differentiate the progressive from the conservative female characters by making the progressive women dress more masculine and/or less fashionable than the conservative. Instead, their dress is dictated by their status and by the individual character's personality (e.g. Anne's pragmatic sister wears more earth tones and plaids to convey her practicality and Anne's young love interest wears pinks and pastels to convey her youth and vulnerability.)
Thank you. I think the 2020 version of little women succeeds with praising Jo for her different style while also respecting the other sisters with a more feminine style.
If it is, where is it? Where are these overtly masculine women protagonists? Even the NLOGs still in the end embrace or at least meekly adhere to traditional femininity to the extent they find tolerable. The rest of us have always been treated like disreputable clown shows.
Defining femininity with "looking good/caring about your appearance" only feeds into not only misogyny but consumerism. Human beings in general want to have good hygiene but all of these trends that determine what makes someone "look good" come from companies... idk. Always rubs me the wrong way this over association with femininity and being shallow.
yeah there’s definitely nuance to it. u can be feminine and cis, just be Aware that there is a reason these standards exist. like i’m queer and non-binary and i still want to shave my legs despite the fact i know the only reason i want to do it is misogynistic reasons.
sorry also, i don’t shave my legs but it’s something i think about sometimes.
@@centali6551 Try going vegetarian. My leg hairs got minimized over change of diet. Find one that lowers androgen hormones to minimize body hair. Even my armpit hairs are minimized. It is amazing how certain foods can trigger certain genes and suppress others. I try to avoid shaving because it worsens the growth, at least for me it does.
Well, being obsessed with eyebrows and eyelashes IS shallow...
@@ems3991solid dad pun
One thing that I would say in defense of the 2019 Little Women is that they made the other sisters much more badass, strong, and multifaceted than I often see them portrayed. Especially Amy. So when Jo’s more masculine portrayal is taken in combination with the elevation of the other girls as main characters in their own right, it feels less like a rejection of femininity and more like an intentional diversification of what “femininity” means. Something that is varied enough to encapsulate Jo’s menswear AND Meg’s longing for high fashion silks she can’t afford AND Amy’s utilitarian employment of her femininity for her own self advancement AND Beth’s simple modesty. Is it historically accurate? No. But I don’t think it’s fair to dismiss it as “not like other girls” misogyny either.
Yes! I had this same feeling but couldn't put it in to words until I read your comment. Each of the sisters (and Marmie) are so different, and represent such different personalities and desires, that I feel it's unfair to say that Jo's wardrobe is solely fulfilling the "not like other girls" trope.
Also, agreed- the costumes and hairstyles are not historically accurate. But they FIT, somehow. They make sense as an artistic choice.
@@kaitlynjefferson1436 yes exactly!
One of the small frustrations that I have with historical fashion youtube is this unwillingness to acknowledge movie costumes as artistic choices. There’s this notion that ahistorical=bad. But costumes are intended to do more than be an accurate reflection of the time period. Take a movie like “A knight’s tale” for example-absurdly ahistorical costumes, but the costuming is great at communicating both the nature of the characters and the tone of the film.
Even those annoying corset scenes, while absolutely lazy and cliched writing and totally misunderstanding corsetry, are from a filmmaking perspective a fairly efficient way to use a symbol that a modern audience associates with patriarchy to communicate both a theme related to the oppressive nature of society and the relationship of the main character with that society. But the discourse online tends to be simply “that’s not historically accurate and also corsets are great” rather than offering any analysis of the use or subversion of the trope in the film itself.
So when Little Women was praised for costuming, UA-cam rolled its eyes because the costumes were ahistorical (and therefore “bad”) without bothering to think about now the costumes worked as an artistic choice.
Yes thank you!
Yes. I'd add that book Jo WAS masculine, did want to be be a boy, and dressed/address the part as much as possible. There are many instances of her clothing, demeanor and appearance being described as masculine/gentlemanly/boyish, up to and including the shortening of her name, as discussed by Meg in the opening chapter. The choice of Jo's clothing in the movie does reflect her style, as originally written.
Exactly - in fact, Amy was made explicitly feminist enough in the Paris scene with Laurie that some "traditionalists" started complaining that Jo was supposed to be the only progressive one - meaning that they registered that a hyper-feminine character was still progressive, and it bothered them, and I think having that discussion of "but why does it bother you?" is what the director was aiming for.
I snorted so hard at the reenactment with Nicole 🤣🤣! Thank you for this rant. It’s beautifully said, and obviously meticulously researched, and an important reminder that feminism is not exclusive of or the antithesis of femininity (as well as many other points).
I was (and am, I guess) always described as a tomboy. It’s always troubled me that female intelligence was associated with tomboyish dress, social awkwardness, and complete ineptitude with makeup, hair, fashion, crafting/sewing, etc. That information was so ingrained that I was well into my twenties before people I had known my whole life learned I could knit, crochet, sew, tat, paint, and had been doing so pretty much from the age of five. I had hidden everything “girly” about myself, for fear of not being taken seriously (took a wee bit of therapy to unpack all that). I didn’t realize how deep and widespread that trope really is, though. It was always movies like “Some Kind of Wonderful” and “She’s All That” that got to me.
I hope you have a marvelous weekend with your friend. Being able to share space and time with loved ones is such a gift (thank you, plague-vaccine!!), and is one of the very best medicines (laughter is #1) for both our mental and physical health. Love, light and blessings, as always.
My mom always said I was “a tomboy who wore dresses” would go climb a tree in a ball gown as a kid/teenager if you let me.
I was the inept one. I didn't want to be, but I was. At first, I really wanted to pretend to be like the girls who were pretty and understood what looked good on them and what colors matched and how to be friends and be cool enough but not standoffish. For years, I had to distance myself from them because they naturally thought I was garbage, especially when I tried to be like them (all groups do that), but now I am far enough away from society that I can again see the value in traditionally feminine skills (even though I suck at most of them, all but embroidery/cross-stitch which I can copy, and reading and liking pretty clothes on TV (I don't fit them in RL), as well as the freedom we should all have to be interested in whatever we like without the boundaries of stringent gender roles, like they absolutely have where I live now.
My 3 kids are all in the same place here. My boy likes some "boy" stuff but not other so he has been picked on, one girl loved "girly" stuff and now loves black sweats, anime, swords, art, and darkness (she gets picked on, too), and my other girl loves fashion, baking, and math and is our only family extrovert and has friends. I'd like all of us to be acceptable and appreciate the different strengths we all have, regardless of gender.
I totes get the idea behind this and I’m all for the basic premise but it does feel like a struggle to sit through what feels like poor reading of the source materials for Little Women! Much of the novel is semi-autobiographical and it’s pretty weird to hear you say “this wouldn’t happen” while I’m plopped in Alcott country with Louisa’s ghost going “am I a joke to you?” in her fucked up hair and very socially inappropriate outfits. Makes it hard to want to hear the rest of the analyses.
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Yes. It seems we're ignoring the experience of historical women when they hurt our corset feelings. It's a lot easier to pretend everything negative about corsets is Mean Male Propaganda than to believe women have different thoughts and opinions apparently 🙃
YES! Also, there are MANY scenes in the book where joe dresses unproperly! There's the scene where she goes out with a burnt dress and has to stand next to a wall, one where she goes with loose hair and someone (maybe Meg?) tells her it's inappropriate and more that I forgot. I agree with a lot of the other points, but at least pretend that you know the book you're critisizing...
Thank yooouuu! Was thinking the same thing regarding Louisa May Alcott. And also..like, the fact that I've always been a bit of a tomboy and prefer baggy clothes cos they're comfortable and easy to move around in, does that suddenly make me misogynist or something? I love the look of corsets, but girl I don't have the time nor the patience to put one on, I'm sorry. Can't we all just like what we like and what makes us comfortable?
Big mood, as soon as the video started I realized this isn't going the way I was expecting, especially the shade at Jo, my big girl crush when I was a girl. And also jealous you're in Alcott country!! Last summer I visited her house and ngl, started tearing up when I saw the little hand-painted dagger Louisa used in her childhood plays
(ps sorry this is a year late but this video popped up in my feed and I'm more engaged with the comments than the actual video)
Rejecting "feminine" things isn't masculine, though. I hate wearing uncomfortable bras and I hate the pressure to act apologetic and unsure when expressing myself, and that has nothing to do with masculinity, that's HUMAN. Humans don't like discomfort or inauthenticity. In much of history, women were restricted to a teeny sliver of life and the entire remainder of human experience was designated "for men." So when women acted too fully human-- thinking, creating, participating in public, objecting to abuse-- it was wrongly considered "masculine." I hate that this still goes on today (e.g. once shoes start being functional they're "masculine" instead of just shoes, body hair that grows there naturally is "masculine" instead of just your body). And if you point this out suddenly it's some sort of attack on other women. It's gotten to the point where if a woman says "cultural pressure to wear makeup has hurt me," a horde of other feminists will swoop in to defend the makeup, not the woman. We're all ok with critiquing elements of "masculinity" as toxic, but we need to be able to critique femininity as well when it's toxic (to us, not just others), without being called misogynists. Miss Stacey in Anne With An E didn't do anything "masculine," nor did Jo; they were just uncouth, freethinking and frumpy (qualities that are not at odds with being a woman nor imply that you reject other women).
AMEN! I’m so glad someone could articulate why this bothers me. People act like being a feminine woman is the ultimate oppression. Femininity is forced on women. Women aren’t bad/misogynist for rejecting what’s been forced on us for centuries!
@@chaleiyawells9483 Femininity is forced on women, thank you for saying it. We can't "choose" it without the option to say "no."
Thank you so much you're entirely right
This! I can't help but feel shoehorning "not like other girls" into every woman's narrative as a negative trope is a huge disservice to women who actively refused a corset and found them uncomfortable and/or oppressive, and/or unfeminist. Everyone performed their activism from different angles and different experiences. My great aunt is one of them.
I completely agree with this, there's already a lot damage done when we're even calling things feminine or masculine. This begins very early when parents say things to their child like: oh don't play with that, that's for girls or: you don't want to look like a boy etc.
But I also agree with Abby that real progression is and was often slow and a lot of historical dramas overdo progression. Especially in Anne with an E it was layed on very thick and distracted from the fact that Anne was already progressive because of who she was not because of how she would react to everything that was going on around her. The fact that she befriended Diana for example could've been enough for us to learn something from instead of seeing her befriend an Indian girl. It isn't even about the clothes. Jo March's character in the 2019 movie was portraited way better imo then Anne in Anne with an E so how she was dressed didn't matter that much to me.
I feel it’s a little unfair to put an expectation of representing a movement for women’s rights in a way that people of her historical time and place will find palatable onto a fictional character who is struggling to meet her goal of becoming a writer. Especially because she seemed to have such a hard time getting published in part because people didn’t really take her seriously.
it’s respectability politics. if society doesn’t want to change, it’s not on the oppressed to “acquiesce” anything
Look I have to defend the 2019 version of little women because it is the only version in my opinion to get her character right with costume, because Jo is not “not like other girls” she is a tomboy, she is gender non conforming, because that’s just naturally her way. She doesn’t shit on other girls by rejecting femininity she just feels restricted by it. The way the 2019 version has her incorporate menswear is quite brilliant in my opinion and shows way more character than how other versions of the story where she is just dressed a bit more plain compared to her sisters. The 94’s director actively choose to portray Jo as NOT a tomboy but as a geek/theatre kid, which I actually think it’s kind of a disservice to her character to not make her a tomboy, it kind of erases a big part of her character, femininity is demonized by media yes but women who don’t fit into it are demonized too, and Jo is a character who goes through hardship because she doesn’t fit into the social parameters of femininity
The 2019 version also plays homage to the queer lens of viewing Jo March/Louisa May Alcott, who never married and did not want Jo to marry in her books!
"he took her tape and put it on display to make money off of it, that's how shocking she was"
No, that's how disgusting he was.
Both can be true - he clearly wasn't the only one exoticizing her - but yeah, that wording kind of sounds like blame.
It's different ways of looking at the issue, and both are useful in the correct context. Was it gross? Yes. Is it an indicator of the values of the society in which Amelia Bloomer lived? Also yes.
Making money off letting people look at a measuring tape used to measure a woman for bloomers--think about how tangential that was to the bloomers themselves!--WORKED. That's telling, completely independent of the objective morality (or lack thereof) of the action.
You mean enterprising lol. That's that #1800hustle passive income lol. But obviously it's incredibly stupid that the world existed to allow that to happen, but you can't really blame him for making a buck off of it from weirdos. A fool and their money are easily parted.
You have a weird understanding of disgusting.
Who are you referring to as the ones who think it's perfectly okay to sell women's bodies and sexuality?
I think the problem lies in the difference between “I’m not like other girls” and “I don’t feel the need to be like everybody else.” Or even more common, “I’m not like other people. I’m an outsider not by choice, but by inclination or a flat inability to conform.”
Some of this is a “I’m not Neurotypical” message couched in other terms due to a lack of understanding.
The most interesting people aren’t really much like anyone else, IMO. The odd and oblique, the strange and diverse. Eclectic tastes and interests. People with whom a conversation can literally circle a world of subjects before coming back around to the starting point.
And of course the media distortions and sheer laziness in relying on simplistic tropes are a factor. Odd how while Hollywood has been selling us on the notion that quirkiness is good for generations now, an appreciation for it hasn’t bloomed in the population at large. We’re desperately trying to find ways to “cure” it.
omg thank God someone brought up how neurodivergency interacts with the nlog trope and society's love for "weird" people until someone is actually "weird"
i feel like it's incredibly under discussed how neurodivergence affects peoples' relationships with gender identity and expression - while it's true that a lot of the idea of "not being like other girls" comes from misogynistic ideas that traditional masculinity > traditional femininity, it's also deeply connected to how neurodivergent (particularly autistic) people oftentimes feels disconnected from their peers and how for afab people that can easily make them feel like they're different from "other girls" because if you change "other" to "neurotypical" than they are different in a way
and of course it gets even messier when gender identity is brought into the mix. many transmasculine people go through a nlog phase before they come out (to themselves or others) not because they think femininity is bad, but rather because they hate being perceived as feminine
i know your comment is over a year old so i'm sorry about the notification but i just wanted to say something because the centering of neurotypical ideas of conformity were bothering me a lot while watching the video
Thank you for bringing up neurodivergence! I've always considered myself "not like other girls" due to my interests and ways of communicating. I was always disgusted with people's extremely gendered expectations of me not so much for what they were (pink, fluffy, sensitive, girly) but because people refused to see me as anything but not that and voiced an issue with it. I'm a cis female who was quite a tomboy as a young one and while I have chosen to have more of a sense of personal femininity now in my adulthood, I really haven't changed much now. Except for learning that I'm AuDHD and that's a huge part of what isolated me from my peers, not just my ~*quirky*~ interests. Lots of characters written to fulfill the "I'm not like other girls" role tend to be deeply Autistically coded too.
yea thats what i was thinking while she was talking about it. There are plenty of bs historical fantasies that are definitely doing the "the only way i can hammer home im a feminist is the corset scene". but theres plenty of others where even if they wish to progress society, the reality is more about self expression, and a frustration that they *arent* accepted by society. They are the "alt girls" of the day, and whatever their ideas on where they wish society would go, they dont expect to be accepted by society? or care? or maybe its part of the arc, that they grow up and learn its one or the other. Or they are only "Accepted" because some higher authority favors them or they saved that authorities life.
I read an interesting account of I think Elizabeth Cady Stanton. Apparently she loved the bloomers for practical reasons because she found it difficult and dangerous to carry a baby up the stairs while wearing long skirts and carrying a candle. It wasn't to be "not like the other girls" like movies would suggest. It was just that she had things to do where long skirts got in the way.
Megan Follows and the 80s versions of Anne are the very best! I LOVED the movies as a kid (watched them on VHS in the late 90s) and still love them to this day (bought them over the years on VHS and DVD at thrift stores).
Yes, my favorite adaptation!
I had the genuine pleasure of meeting Megan at a convention, and let me tell you, I was literally in tears. She was *my* Anne, and had been the true heroine of my formative years. I grew up reading the books and watching the miniseries. Megan was such a kind and delightful human being. I was so glad to have had that experience.
The superior Anne for sure
She is Anne.
I love her so much!! I saw her in an episode of murdoch mysteries and realized I had no one to share my excitement! I'm sharing it here with you! 🤗 I bought the box set because I wanted to watch every minute again before starting a new job. OH "LMM" also has an episode on murdoch. 🥰
Not to mention that Miss Stacy was totally into clothing too. There's a point (I can't remember if it was in the books or the 80's films) where Anne actually relates guiltily how much she liked clothes and how she would rather be pretty than smart and Miss Stacy laughs and admits to having had the same feeling when she was younger. Anne is shocked because she thinks Miss Stacy is beautiful and there's a moment of reflection that seems to reassure Anne and give her hope that she can have both.
Actually, it might have been the preacher's wife now that I'm thinking about it, but I'm pretty sure the 80's movie just like... combined the two. So it could be I'm just putting different scenes together in my mind. Someone let me know if they have a better memory than me.
Since Anne with an E doesn’t have the preachers wife, who is a mentor figure for Anne, I think Miss Stacy is based on her character.
Doesn’t Miss Stacy become the preacher’s wife? Maybe? My brain feels like this might be the thing. That they are the same person!
@@aniaraguz Miss Stacy and Mrs Allan are definitely not the same character 😂
I think I remember in the books, Anne is thrilled with Miss Stacey's big puffed sleeves.
I'm relieved that other people in the comments felt off about this video too. Normally I like discussing where NLOG mentalities come from amd recently moved on from my own NLOG mentality, but this video kind of made me feel like garbage for being masculine.
First, hard agree that how a person dresses is not necessarily indicative of their character traits and it is absolutely true that you can dress in a traditionally feminine manner while still being progressive and feminist. I also see why women striving for change may have deliberately worn clothing that was considered socially acceptable in order not to detract from their message.
BUT. There is a difference between the choices a person striving to make social change makes and the choices a person who is simply trying to express themselves makes. The first might choose to sacrifice personal style choices for the sake of gaining acceptance of their message, the second may be actively trying to distinguish themselves as their own person and their clothing helps them do that.
Additionally, while the NLOG trope may tend to follow a particular sartorial formula that is somewhat problematic, it also happens to be one of the few instances in which girls who do NOT want to dress in a traditionally feminine way can see themselves in mainstream media. This was not something that was on my radar until I was raising a girl (currently 9 years old) who fit into that category. She is angry at the societal norms for the ways women are expected to dress (why, for instance, does she have to wear a shirt when it’s hot out and boys don’t) and I fully expect her to be utterly resigned if she ever ends up wearing a bra for comfort reasons (ie if her particular anatomy makes it uncomfortable to play sports without a bra). NLOG stories are much more reflective of how she currently sees herself and how she wants to dress than a “girl power who dresses in a feminine way” narrative. I think it’s important to have NLOG historical costume dramas where the character dresses differently from the societal norm because it provides a sense of belonging to a group with its own history (you are not weird but part of a club that has existed for a very long time) and that can be comforting.
I agree that it's the cliche part of the trope that is frustrating. Part of the cliche that frustrates me is the idea that somehow we live in an age that doesn't have its own issues or problems.
Because one example of such a problem is just the inequality you mentioned--men are allowed to go around with no shirts when girls can't. That bothers me. I personally don't want girls to be shirtless, I just want guys to have to wear shirts too. For fairness' sake, and because I don't always want to look at a strange man's chest...or try not to look, if it's waaaay too hot outside. 😜
Move to Ontario, you can go topless no matter what gender you are.
@@adorabell4253 that would be perfect except she is angry at the inequality and so she wants to protest and change the laws…and maybe go topless here as part of that? Her plans on this aren’t totally clear. I have told her she needs to wait until she’s 18 for that kind of protest and have put her in karate/self defense class and started a bail fund just in case.
Are you a fan of Terry Pratchett? Adora Belle Dearheart is one of my favorite characters. :)
I don't think little woman (2019) with girly bad boy good entirely makes sense considering that Amy is just as progressive, has the progressive wedding rant and is highly feminine and into girly things. Jo was more being made to be like LM Alcott who did talk in letters about wanting to be a man (whether literally or not).She also in the book is always a mess, wears men's jackets and would wear trousers but her mother won't let her. So the idea that it's a ridiculous modern contortion is wrong.
Also it's the 1994 version that actually has Marmie go on a rant about restrictive corsettes.
You can see all those things in the 1994 version too but Who cares anyway every body prefers the 1994 version
The director on the 94 movie talked about how their version of Jo was going more for geeky instead of tomboyish, which I don’t hate but I also think it’s sad because it erases a big part of her character :(
@@susanalopez5052 people hate tomboys. That's why . Girls are punished for not being feminine enough so nerdy is more acceptable as she can be feminine
@@emanuelyanes9925 i dont prefer that. i thought it was meh but thats just my opinion- and many disagree on youtube and in film. theres this man named thomas flight who made a nicely edited video about this so i recommend watching that because he highlights why the 2019 had depth and brought smth new to the table. This is just my opinion though, but you saying everybody prefers the 94 version tells me... i don't really know if you're in the film world but many disagree with you. It ok though, we can all have different opinions. People who like the 94 version always get so heated when I say I like the 2019 version so much better, like chill, its just my opinon
You somehow managed to watch a movie in which the main character gives a whole speech about respecting women and a tv show with a multi-episode arc about protecting and defending women's right to bodily autonomy and came away with "they're Not Like Other Girls because they don't conform to gender roles." Incredible.
Yeah, she really missed the mark on this one.
Thank god the viewers have sense
It's quite hilarious.
I have enjoyed her videos, but frankly, this has discredited her in my eyes.
Me being “not like the other girls” in a class that was over 80% girls (small school) turned out to be me being “not like the other kids” in that I’m autistic. I was very much “one of the girls” in terms of gender presentation, and have worn dresses and skirts pretty much exclusively for over a decade now.
This. Exactly this. It all made sense once I got diagnosed😂😂 it wasn't my rejection of feminine traits (which I too didn't reject at all. I love dresses), it was the world rejecting my autism traits
Oh crap, yeah. This was my situation too. I enjoyed hanging out with boys because I felt more like a normal girl around them, not because I wanted to be boyish. When I hung out with my girlfriends, I felt so odd and alien and like I was constantly having to wear a mask, because the difference in behavior between us was just too stark and obvious. It’s no wonder so many autistic women who go undiagnosed end up assuming that they’re trans and then having to detransition later when they realize that they’re not.
Same same same!
I felt the same way, and it happened that I am autistic too! Diagnosed way late and suddenly it all made sense. Add to the mix my queerness and there you are. Someone who didn't fit anywhere 🤷🏻♀️
Yeah mine was large part being autistic and not knowing yet (diagnosed in adulthood) and part realising I'm gender queer. Like I knew I was queer in sexuality whilst at school and actually knew a girl who was also queer, but I still wasn't quite like her). Turns out after meeting (some online, some at university) other autistic people, I've felt a hell of a lot less "not like the others".
Lady Taylor of Swift: "She wears corsets, I wear bloomers."
This is hands down the best comment on this video
She wears undergarments, I wear nothing. God bless taylor swift.
"She goes to balls but I'm not a princess"
you know mocking women who dont conform to perfect femininity is pick me behavior and indicative of an im not like other girls attitude in itself. masculine women are not inherently misogynistic just by choosing a different form of expression, and butches have actually been around for a while. this is a weird take.
+
It's a weird take. It doesn't take a genius to spot that many female characters have a bizarre hatred of traditionally feminine expression and are therefore shown as "better" and more athletic or intelligent than girls who dress in pink or where dressed. They're shown as hateful bimbos 😭 ofc women can wear whatever they want but traditionally feminine expression has rlly been attacked. Even girls and women nowadays confessed to pretending to hate pink and girly shows so they can fit in
Thank you
That’s not what she said at all
Love this! We don't have to trade our femininity to be treated fairly. One wonderful woman you missed ANNIE OAKLEY!!! She became the best sharpshooter in the world all the while wearing a dress! Blessings
Love it!
Have you ever considered doing a video about mourning attire? I’ve wondered about this after watching Downton (I believe that’s s1e1) vs. Sense and Sensibility (especially the 2008 BBC version). I assume the social mores for mourning would change over time, but who gets it right?
Samantha Bullat has done a video covering Civil War era mourning - she's soooo knowledgable on that subject. I've been working on a video about fashionable black clothing (i.e. black clothes that are not for mourning) which will focus on the 1890s and 1900s, and will have some bits about mourning there but def check out Samantha's video which will cover a lot of the basics about colors, fabrics, sheen, etc. here's the link to her video - ua-cam.com/video/T5w2wN301Lk/v-deo.html
@@AbbyCox perhaps a video on the cultural shift that was "The Little black dress" !?
I was just a kid, but can remember being DELIGHTED that black was being embraced as a color, versus "Just for mourning"! Got in many disagreements with my mother for wearing black, which I felt was "chic", versus her thinking "mourning".
I WAS a "Tom boy" growing up, as that was the only socially acceptable way to be physically active (bike riding, climbing trees & fences, etc.).
@Amy Kendall this doesn't really answer your question but you might find it interesting. Caitlin over at Ask a Mortician has touched on mourning attire just a little. In this video she talks about the heavy crepe mourning gowns of the Victorians, around the 3:20 mark. ua-cam.com/video/0OlF-EtoGBo/v-deo.html
In this one she talks about how the deceased would be dressed. ua-cam.com/video/lJjfBHDuMNs/v-deo.html
💄What part(s) of Ohio did your Great Aunt work/live in? 💋
@@m.maclellan7147 also Miss Manners has a great illustration: past equals hat and veil, while present equals huge black glasses.
Anne Shirley: Wearing a corset is kind of uncomfortable I guess
You: Anne, you're being really problematic right now :/
Agree with some points, hard disagree with some of the insinuations here that rubbed me the wrong way. I agree that putting down feminine women is bad, and there are ways for historical female characters to be feminists fitting to their contexts without the fem hating and pushing our modern day ideas about what a feminist is on them. But I disagree that female characters rejecting femininity for themselves is inherently anti-feminist and a women being masculine is “too historically inaccurate.”
Our society prioritizes and values masculine men above all, and alienates the others. It hates women who are invested in fashion, dresses, makeup, romance, family, etc. People need to understand femininity is not opposed to feminism, professionalism, and capability. “Strong female characters” putting down feminine women and the ultra feminine characters being portrayed as weak, mean, and stupid is actually really harmful.
The demonization of the corset and lack of understanding about tight-lacing not being the norm, and the support and range of mobility a corset could actually provide is pretty frustrating. And the idea that a “relatable progressive woman in a historical drama” must be a corset and skirt hater bc we’re so much smarter and better now than historical women is eye-roll worthy. It’s true that many of the female historical figures who accomplished great things or were forward thinking dressed rather conventionally feminine, girly girls get shit done.
However I don’t see the problem with how Jo 2019 presented (besides the costuming/styling historical inaccuracy). I loved her masculine dress emphasizing her textual tomboyishness, her subtextual or latent queerness, and LMA’s own gender-nonconformist life. I don’t think Jo being masculine is anti-feminist especially when Marmee, Meg, and Amy are allowed to be feminine, independent, and complex characters without being bashed. Amy is an important character and definitely a feminist character too, so I don’t think the movie is saying “girly bad, boy good.” A woman rejecting femininity while fem bashing is bad, but Jo isn’t doing that. Jo, a canonical tomboy, being more masculine in this movie isn’t an attack on femininity.
You acknowledge that some women did dress masculine in the past, but I caution against saying that a female character rejecting femininity for herself is “too historically inaccurate” and “anti-feminist actually.” How could you acknowledge that George Sand existed but then say Jo and Ms. Stacy were too much? Look up Dr. Mary Edwards Walker, Rosa Bonheur, and Ria Brodell’s research in “Butch Heroes” for even more examples. Not all women actually cared about respectability politics, nor should they now. Some historical women did in fact reject corsets and skirts! It was really hard to live like this bc of super ingrained sexism and sumptuary laws that made crossdressing illegal, but just because they weren’t the norm and you couldn’t find many examples doesn’t mean that women like that didn’t exist and can’t exist in our fiction.
We cannot ignore that in a majority of cultures all around the world, a degree of femininity for women is still the norm. I’m seeing comments like “Women, don’t be scared of femininity” and “We need to make traditional femininity acceptable again” like HELLO? What world are you living in? The world still largely pressures women to dress femininely, wear makeup, have long hair, be pretty, shave, have feminine jobs, be a wife, have kids, and harshly punishes those who are GNC. Most women represented in media lean towards feminine, there’s not some femininity deficiency in media. For those of us who are tired of having femininity shoved down our throats, rejecting it and taking up space as tomboys or masculine isn’t supposed to be an attack on femininity but empowerment for ourselves. We need to be careful about how we talk about gender-non conformity and masculinity in women so we’re not alienating them.
Well, said. Although I often get where these historical dress "influencers" are coming form, I feel they go on about this because of the romanticization of the corset and other forms of traditionally feminine historical dress. I mean, in the 1994 version of Little Women (can't remember if it's in the book, or not. It's been a minute since I've read it and they all pretty much bleed together at this point) Marmy straight up says that the perception of women being weak and prone to fainting is the result of social expectations and restrictive corsets. It also implies that the March girls don't wear them, as evidenced by the scene where the rich girls dress up Meg and the maid is shocked to find that she ain't wearing a corset. Not saying the corset part is true, but it does show that corset bashing isn't new. And, no, men were not the only ones who hated on corsets. Not then and certainly not now.
Well said. There's a whole subplot in the 2019 Little Women about how Meg wants to be a wife and mother and that's not any less valid than Jo's ambition but it's still not enough. This whole thing seems kinda reactionary to me tbh.
I got some subtles Christian tradfem vibes from this that rubbed me the wrong way. I agree with you.
I agree with everything you said and especially the last paragraph. I live in Russia where the society is quite misogynistic and the expectation for women's appearance are very high. Many office jobs literally have makeup, skirts and heels as a dress code requirement! How am I supposed to "embrace" things that are forced on me? Also many women don't like the feeling on makeup on their skin, have skin conditions, don't like wearing high heels because of health or comfort concerns (not everyone has enough time and money to go hunting for that one perfect pair of heels, you know). It's ridiculous that we are now being put in the same category as misogynistic "not like other girls"... Traditional femininity is a valid choice that I will always defend, but to many women around the world it's NOT a choice, it's a requirement! Still, this is by no means an excuse to put down other WOMEN. But we are allowed to criticize certain aspects of traditional femininity, especially how ableist, classist and racist it is, and how it is tied strongly with consumerism.
This is a great comment. Although I understand all these recent discussions surrounding femininity and how feminine characters can be treated at times in modern and historical dramas, I feel like a lot of it can be pretty narrow in terms of how femininity in fiction vs real life is treated. Yes, women who are feminine can also be punished bc of said femininity, especially if they are perceived as desirable physically but "stuck up" emotionally. But femininity is still the norm, and femininity is still 'viewed' as the norm in media primarily for thin white girls/women. Just compare or look at simple marketing that is pointed towards women. Everything has to do with them being more feminine, more thin and more attractive to men. Furthermore, more obvious masculine traits and not just other thin white women being dressed and perceived as a "tomboy" are actually pretty rare to be seen in media and actually viewed in a positive way. Even the "not like other girls" characters are still in their own way conformative to the overall expectations of women today: they can be thin and wear looser jeans and regular shirts or flannels, but they can't be too non-conforming, like having extremely short hair or being fat. This is also why I'm very confused at so many women claiming that femininity is demonized or somehow thrown out the window as an option that women can accept when ........every woman is expected to be feminine in some sort of way. There's also another discussion to be had around fatphobia and how marketed femininity is directly tied to that, as well as how we inherently view fat women as lesser or even expect them to be more modest and try to hide themselves because they don't conform to the idea of being a thin feminine woman the way they "should" be.
These are some really good points about lazy storytelling through "masculine" clothing for women. Beyond clothing, though, I think what we call the "not like other girls" trope can be doing more complex things specifically for queer characters. Queer girls are/were not like other girls, because girlhood is/was always imagined at heterosexual (or at the very least, inevitably heterosexual ie the allowance of young women's romantic friendships that are expected to be put aside for marriage eventually). In Gentleman Jack, Anne is CONSTANTLY pointed out to be different than other women - driving the coach, collecting her rents.
While I agree that 2019 Little Women falls deeply short of historical realism in costuming, I think they did two very good things that complicate the way you're reading their use of the trope here. First, I think they leaned a lot more into Jo's latent queerness, which connects so deeply with Louisa May Alcott's queerness. Second, they did SO MUCH WORK to show the ways all of the sisters are negotiating the expectations and limitations of womanhood at the time - Meg struggling to reconcile her desires for fashionable clothing with her desire to do good in the world, Amy recognizing her position in the marriage market, Jo wanting to work for her money. The 94 version feels much more like an exploration of individual desires and the 19 version one of those desires tapped into what we recognize as a more systemic feminist viewpoint. Both, I think, are important ways of telling stories.
Anyway, I think your point on the over-reliance on this trope in costuming is important! I also think we can broaden the way we read some of these characters to recognize that rejecting some feminine expectations has sometimes been one of the few ways of living queerly for women.
Also, Rosa Bonheur is a great example of the Parisian Pants Policy (I cackled at this)! She got permission to wear men's clothing as a painter who spent time sketching animals in stables, farms, horse sales, etc, but also just fully wore them most of the time as a tiny butch powerhouse.
Yes, if anything, Greta Gerwig’s interpretation seems to be based on MORE research into Alcott and her life than the 1994 version. It doesn’t feel like a director grafting modern notions of feminism and “not like other girls” onto a narrative that never had them. It feels like Gerwig tapping into what Alcott might have wanted if she didn’t have to compromise to sell her book. It’s still through a modern lens, but I think it’s a perfectly valid reading of the story and Alcott’s journals.
@@aisabellap agreed! I love the 94 version too but I really appreciated that the 19 version brought in the political and social context that Alcott lived within more. (Costume-wise I also think the clip chosen for this video is actually a perfect use of costuming to express the emotional tenor of the scene, what with the Jo/Teddy swapping of waistcoats showing how Jo sees their relationship vs how he does but maybe that's just me!)
Queerness is definitely the one time I really appreciate the "not like other girls" trope. Good points!
Yes, this exactly! There is a lot more to be said on this topic, particularly in the case of early 20th century sapphics! While I get that not everything can fit into one video and still read as succinctly, the role of clothing in expressing queerness should not be underestimated in its importance for queer representation, since we have to scrabble to find that so often. But yes, totally agree on the over-reliance on the trope!
You viewpoints seem firmly grounded in your own comfort with wearing socially prescribed feminine fashions. I have NEVER been comfortable in feminine clothing, even as a child, despite my mother’s Herculean efforts. I am old enough to have not been allowed to wear pants to school until I was in high school, and I was absolutely miserable. I did not feel comfortable in my own skin until I was finally allowed to wear pants. I guarantee you that this was not because I was a feminist or progressive, as I didn’t even know what those things meant. It was because I was uncomfortable and couldn’t do the things I wanted to do, like tumble and play freely. Skirts also made me feel unsafe. This was probably because of the lecherous male teachers who insisted on measuring our skirts to make sure they were long enough, which apparently necessitated “accidently” touching our buttocks and other private parts. To this day, I prefer more androgynous fashions, but not because I think they are “superior” to more traditionally feminine clothing. Perhaps many of us really “weren’t like other girls” after all.
I feel like we're almost circling around from "femininity is OK actually" to like, arguing for respectability politics.
Yeah. Don't show women being unwomanly, or it's against other women? Like, sorry, what?!
Yeah it really is not a vibe
Well, the context here is making historical dramas, not how we should act towards each other today. She's not saying it should be unacceptable to dress that way, she's saying it was.
@@QueenMegaera it's still largely unacceptable for women to be hypermasculine today and they still do it. there's no reason to think women in the past wouldn't do the same
@@QueenMegaera Respectability politics is the idea that the oppressed/minority class should conform to the majority/oppressor class to be taken seriously. This is seen in the video when OP talked about the portrayal of Jo in 1994's Little Women vs 2019's Little Women. She lauds 1994's depiction of her because she was a feminist, but still managed to stay within the norms for women during her period, by dressing traditionally feminine. At the same time, she criticizes 2019's Jo because she wore historically masculine clothes, even though she's described as sharing clothes with Laurie in the original book. Bottom line: women have been dressing in more masculine clothes for centuries, whether as a feminist statement or simply a tool of self expression, and it's callous to pin all of that work down on wanting to be "not like other girls".
I was in my teens in the early 2000s and I knew so many girls with this holier than thou attitude about not being like other girls and it was funny to see how they weren’t aware of how toxic they were acting. God forbid you tell them they were in the wrong too.
I and several friends from college talked one time about how we felt super great about being “not like other girls” in high school and now feel really gross about it.
That was me. I was convinced that girly girls were the devil. It's a good job I've learned how wrong I was because it appears that my 2 year old daughter is a girly girl!
@@janinesmith3205 we all acted cringey in our younger days I know pretend to have amnesia when my past is brought up.
@@robynmurray6530 hehe that’s kinda cute
It is incredibly toxic and sexist, but it’s also understandable. There’s a meme that says growing up is getting over your hatred of pink and frills. And that’s true to a point, but it forgets why so many girls and young women went in for the NLOG ideas to begin with.
It’s a reaction to sexism. Teen me hated pink because it was all that’s I was allowed as a young girl. I was forced into pink, and the toys were all pink, and there was a very narrow way to be a little girl. So it’s understandable that so many teens rebel against this, but they go too far and into toxic NLOG territory.
Sarah Z (whose video was referenced in this one) has a great way of exploring the whole NLOG phenomenon and why it happens. It’s my favourite of the NLOG tropes videos.
31:33 I kind of interpreted the writers take on corsets as an attempt on corset neutrality; Miss Stacy didn’t feel comfortable in corsets because it was her thing. And I actually forgot what Anne said when she put on the corset because she was excited to wear it in the first season. Also, the only reason I wanted a season 4 was for the Bash and Kakwet storylines.
Kakwet's storyline being left like that was the worst thing. I know it was a CBC & Netflix's partnership ending thing, but it felt extra wrong when news about the native children killed and buried in those houses came to light a few months later/a year later?
I'm Brazilian, so I'm not obligated to know stuff about Canadian History, but it was the first time I saw someone acknowledging the sheer viciousness with which native people were treated back then + acknowledge such a shameful and honestly gruesome part of Canadian History in a mainstream TV show.
It broke me to know we'd never get to see what would be made of her. She deserved to have her story told.
The HBO series The Nevers actually got me interested in women's period fashion, and got me to subscribe to you and Nichole and a few others.
Seeing the women in that series fighting and doing mechanical work and such in what I thought was restricting garments was really mind-blowing. Now, I'm insufferable to anyone who mentions the "corsets=bad" trope.
Have you seen Bernadette Banners Video on the Nevers? She’s totally having a nerdgasm over the use of period clothing and how amazing the lead actress moves in the clothes. If you haven’t seen it, I highly recommend! :)
Lots of good points. I myself am a fairly quiet, diplomatic type who likes feminine clothes. I would caution some balance, however, in your dismissal of the efficacy of more radical methods to provoke lasting change. I believe there is a place for multiple ways to attain progress. As a Queer person who lived through the AIDS epidemic of the 80’s and 90’s, I can vouch for the need for both the quieter, more diplomatic changemaker (people working within the system), as well as the provocateur (members of ACT UP). Both were needed to accomplish our goals.
Also, while I agree that the “not like other girls” trope is extremely problematic, don’t dismiss the positive impact seeing images of more masculine-presenting women in these films can have for girls who really don’t feel themselves to be like other girls. They need representation too.
i feel we've basically gone full circle with the 'not like other girls' conversation lol ngl i liked dunking on nlogs at first, it felt cathartic to mock my 'dumb teen self' (who was just repressing the fact that i actually did like traditionally feminine stuffs) but nowadays we're just ignoring the fact that while yes, 'feminine girls' can more often than not be mocked, (and 'traditionally femine interest are seen as lesser than men's) its nowhere as bad as the way 'masculine girls'/ nongender-confoming girls are treated. this video does make good point but some stuffs i just couldn't get behind (the bloomer rant..) and mainly im really tired of this subject lol we're just rehashing the same talking points - i just dont think (anymore) that nlogs are as deeply rooted in misogyny as it is stated here. as some previous comments said some women just don't like the conform to 'traditional gender norms' and some are just neurodivergent too!
Oh my god YES. It's relieving to see so many critical comments here bc while I really like Abby's videos I was kinda internally screaming throughout most of this one. The Bloomer rant really just states the point that women have to conform to fashion/beauty standards in order to be taken seriously - and what, we're supposed to be okay with that?
And I agree that the whole discussion on "nlogs" is eating its own tail by now. Somehow we've come to a point where it seems that conforming to mainstream beauty/ gender norms is more feminist that breaking these norms, which really feels like we've missed a point somewhere. And we can't criticize these norms without a billion disclaimers of "oh, but if you're into makeup / plastic surgery / typically feminine fashion, that's totally okay!!" - yeah, we KNOW it's okay, it's literally what's been imposed upon us since pre-puberty if not earlier. The argument that typically feminine things are often looked down on falls flat for me, because it's not like gnc women or women who take interest in more "masculine" stuff AREN'T looked down on in some other way.
Aaaargh god, excuse me for ranting. Sometimes I feel like starting a channel just to make a video in defense on the so-called "nlogs" because the discourse on it is really getting frustrating.
i've been kinda self-reflecting, because i was definitely a "not-like-other-girls" kind of girl growing up, and i've only in the past few years realized that the biggest issue is that sometimes, at least in my case, that mindset stemmed from my internalizing that things traditionally seen as feminine weren't as valuable or worthwhile, so i was concerned (not without valid reason) that liking or being associated with them would result in me not being taken as seriously. but i've been coming to realize that while i'm still not naturally a very feminine person by nature, i do have certain interests (like clothing and fashion!) that i've largely been neglecting BECAUSE of this bias i developed growing up, and i do really feel like in more recent culture, with help from the younger generation, is doing a wonderful job of allowing that non-traditional girl to exist without it meaning she rejects anything considered feminine, which is something i really wish i had growing up
*this is a personal reflection and opinion, i don't mean to speak for anyone else's experiences)
@@endeityloon136yeah I feel like the discourse in this whole topic has chosen sides, feminine or gnc and exclusively for women, when this should be a talk about *people’s* nuanced interests, we’re putting ourselves in boxes and justifying our likes or dislikes when we’re more diverse than that. We should just be allowed to cater to parts of ourselves that seem opposite without feeling like we’re losing our identities.
I believe no one is a tomboy or a fem person, we just asume that of others because it makes it ‘easier’ to understand them.
Yes! Legit cannot change the fact that I'm neurodivergent and if I had the choice to fit in more as a child and teen, I may have taken that option in place of the isolation and confusion.
I'm french. In 2012, my sister's school tried to forbid skirts... One parent send a letter explaining that this rule was illegal since there was still a law stating that women were not allowed to wear pants. 🤣 Of course, this law was no longer applied for decades, but apparently, nobody took the time to abolish it. It made us laugh, we were almost sad when we learned that stupid law was finally abolished in 2013. It was quite a fun fact to tell to strangers... 😁
I hope the parent’s letter included a statement that the girls had to be allowed to wear _something_ on their lower bodies xD
As always, the great summary is a female dressing more “male-like” to signify independence and progression… in other words, we should replace our femininity with masculinity 💔💔
What i specially love about the times we are curren living in is that females are less apologetic about their femininity (or what traditionally is sold to us as feminine things and behavior) and we have finally started to realize that there is nothing wrong with pink and skirts, and femininity comes in a lot of “flavors” 💜💜💜💜
OMG this is so important. In the 60s and 70s I was sewing knitting, loved fashion, loved computers and math and cooking. It was always "but what are you? Why are you trying be superwoman? Choose!" And this was also true in the LGBTQ world. " you can't lead because you are wearing a dress! Are butch or femme? " Please people I don't want to chose. I love it all.
Agree with you, but have to admit the use of the term ‘females’ in places of women and girls is a bit off-putting. Although, I suppose in this context of speaking about femininity I should just chill. Lol!
Loved Anne With an E and watched with my granddaughter who is 8-yrs-old now. We kept hoping there’d be another season. The best, most valuable show I’ve ever watched with her that kept us equally entranced.
@@sweetafton5655 certainly in my context it was female in the 60s and 70s. Things got a little more looser in the 80s and more confused for a while.
I have to admit I never liked Anne of Green gables though my daughter adored it. A story about child abuse, child labour and her being sold to be "adopted " to work on a farm after being considered not good enough for domestic service at 9.
Thank you! I love traditionally feminine things. I love lipstick and heels and dresses. I love to cook and clean and garden. I like to knit, to sew, to embroider. I love these things for myself.
@@lenabreijer1311 oh, the intersection of queerness and femininity! As someone who presents high femme, I’ve been told too many times to count “but you don’t look gay!” It’s so frustrating.
Or the “you can’t be a feminist, you look too girly!” thing. Again, extremely frustrating.
This criticism of Little Women 20 vs 94 is without reference. Actually, Louisa May Alcott said her mother, who Marmee is molded from, very much disliked corsets....so it would make perfect sense that the characters would choose not to wear corsets...
Also, Jo actually says that she and Laurie switch clothing items IN THE BOOK.... Sooo.... What are your triggers and why do they trigger you? Hmmm?
I know, right?!
Apparently she hasn't read Eight Cousins.
Then they should provide more context on screen
The whole "you have to fit in enough to make change" thing is a really bad argument to make. It's a moving goalpost. Your main point that the "not like other girls" trope is bad is a good point. But "you need to fit in more or we wont give you rights" is a HUGE issue both currently and historically and the real defining factor is how much people in power feel pressured or are willing to budge on. Not how much those not in power are willing to fit in. While dress definitely didn't work against the suffragette movement and while having more things to deflect against their main message likely would have worked against the movement framing it in this way is harmful in a modern context.
We do not currently live in a society that is super accepting. It's also still highly based on class, race, and how attractive someone is considered. See for example baggy unfitting clothing being considered stylish on a thin person but slovenly on a fat person and that judgement being used to discredit people.
I want to make it very clear that I did like this video. I think you did a good job over all and I enjoy your channel. Just this is something that's a big issue that comes up a lot and I honestly think you'd want to know.
+
+
Yes.
The point is that you do too much that deviates from the norm, then people in power don’t take you seriously. Being female on its own is enough of a deviation for people to dismiss you, yes, but you show up as a “weirdo” and it’s just a wacky anomaly, not a “real person” not representative of all women.
In that case, if this person achieves equality, it’s because they are divergent and equally doesn’t have to be extended to all women, just the ones who are clearly more masculine and therefor superior.
If girly = bad, then girl=bad. Or non-girl = good.
There is another view. I totally adopted "not like other girls" to reject the bullying I experienced in high school. If they didn't want me I sure as hell was going to be different. I was proud to be different. I went with my non standard look of broad cheek bones and slanted eyes and went exotic (I am not asian, I am dutch but I had enough of these features to get racially targeted) I was also interested in science and was an honour student, which was even less acceptable in a girl in the 60s. So yes to me " I am not like other girls" was taking back my power.
Same to me! I was not conventionally attractive, too tall and with too large feet to wear most women's clothing and almost any women's shoes, makeup made my face itchy and I couldn't color-match (still can't tell what looks good on me), so as I failed to be good enough for them, I refused to let them destroy me for it and embraced it. I do think that's a very common way to get to NLOG-- via rejection. Trust me, I had girl friends who played video games and D&D, watched MASH and Star Trek, and weren't interested in boys till 8th grade, but they were rare and I was weird and knew I was less, a loser, etc. At age 50, after trying for years and years to make friends, I still am not good enough, and seeing outsiders be accepted as characters for me is the only reason I can still stand to exist as myself, because in my own world, I am not good enough to live. I do like dresses, though, just not makeup and I don't understand how to do my hair. At age 50. Yes, I tried, and I can braid it, but I don't understand what looks good and can't afford people to tell me.
I understand Abby's argument is lazy storytelling and I do understand that we shouldn't look down on the traditional feminine (as per Sansa Stark getting grief in GoT, despite growing into a strong character in a more traditional way), maybe we can accept that girls who weren't good at being feminine and were bullied and looked down on for decades, who didn't date until after college because they weren't good enough, are the ones who pioneered the Taylor Swift song, that we wanted love too, but weren't good enough, and in film it's perhaps common now (Eleanor in Bridgerton), for us we were alone and denigrated and if we have a few people to watch in a film, it's nice because in RL we are the "ugly feminist" that should be ignored, no matter if we wear traditional dress and obey conventional mores as best we can, we will often be shut down and the only way to "win" is to celebrate ourselves, even if nobody else would.
I completely agree! I've been waiting for someone to say something similar to this. I was so socially awkward and couldn't connect well with my peers because I came from such a sheltered background and had bad social anxiety. I have NEVER felt like I fit in well and the "not like other girls" wasn't something I even chose it just felt like my reality.
I think the difference here is that you're focusing on your own lived experience, and there's nothing wrong with celebrating your uniqueness and taking power from that. There is, however, a problem when there's a ridiculously-consistent use of the "not like other girls" trope in media to *very specifically* symbolize such characters as "better" than characters who are traditionally feminine. When you have the woman-identified "not like other girls" character, you almost always have all the more traditionally-feminine characters portrayed as being bad, stupid, petty, etc.
I think there is a certain ignorance of the fact that for many women a degree of feminity is expected, encouraged and sometimes beaten into us as girls (literally or figuratively), and that breaking free of those often sexist expectations isn't a personal attack against more feminine women.
@@SupremeViola Agreed that that's a problem. I think the Sansa Stark character was particularly eye-opening to me (though many don't see her strength for the very reasons you mention), and perhaps Fanny Price in Austen's less-popular (for that reason) _Mansfield Park_. I think a lot of us are having the lived-experience cringe now, particularly maybe those of us who are older and got more grief and just want to not be bad and wrong any more for not being feminine enough. Variety is lovely, and all of us can be celebrated, but I can absolutely imagine (though I haven't seen many of them) current productions only seeing the value of the modern, progressive, less-frilly, pro-democracy female character that espouses a very limited set of traits we value now.
Have you even read Little Women? There are numerous points in the novel in which it discuses Jo's rejection of social norms. There is a least one full chapter in which she makes calls with Amy in the second part of the book that goes into great detail about her refusal to wear fashionable "appropriate" clothing. I loved the 90's Little Women but the 2020's version is more true to Jo's character from the source material.
The permit thing you talk about actually happened in Germany as well. It was implemented during the Weimar republic but it may have started earlier during the German Empire period. I was studying queer persecution in Germany pre, during, and after WWII I came across a paper discussing the permits and looking at how they are one way to study trans history.
Queer and especially trans history in pre WWII Germany is *fascinating*! So many people are very surprised to learn that Berlin was the queer capital of the world, kinda like how San Fran was in the 70s and 80s. Which only makes what happened later all the more devastating- people flocked to Germany as a safe place to be queer, and then it very much was not. James Somerton has a doco/video on the queer victims of the Holocaust that made me bawl practically the entire way through. Highly recommend.
Uuuuh do you have some sources?
@@celiwhaaat6285 The specific one I was referring to is Jane Caplan's "The administration of Gender Identity in Nazi Germany." I have some major issues with the way she uses pronouns in the article (she has a bad habit of only using he/him if a trans man was able to successfully get his name changed, but not using he/him if he was unsuccessful. Also just not using they/them when it wasn't clear). The source is on JSTOR. You can also do research on Magnus Hirschfeld who was pretty critical in the queer movement (scientifically speaking) and I believe was involved in helping trans people get access to "cross dressing" permits. Warning about doing this research tho, transvestite is used a LOT because at the time that was the word for transgender people but today is outdated and has negative connotations. Also some bigger names as far as researchers you can look up are Clayton Whisnant, James steakley, Richard plant, harry Oosterhuis, Laurie Marhoefer, Geoffrey Giles, Robert Beachy.
@@heathertaylor3103 thank you! 💜
Also: i don’t really have time for additional research outside of uni right now, so if someone sees this in the future: please send me a reminder! Thank you 😅💜
Can I just say that I love how you included Darla Dimple, nay, Cats Don't Dance in general, since that movie and its characters don't get enough love
What I hate about "not like other girls" is that they're "not like other girls" because of misogyny, and not like, they like their hobbies, thats what caught their attention, they grew up in that environment, etc. Like what on earth do corsets and bras have to do with it??
My sister had more toy cars than dolls growing up, not because dolls were girly, but because 5 dollars could either be used to buy 1 doll, or 5 toy cars, and she wanted more toys for her money, so toy cars it was. She played sports all throughout school because she LOVED running around, it just happened that boys were more interested in sports than girls. Everything she did wasn't to actively not be like other girls, she was rolling to the beat of her own drum and there aren't enough positive portrayals of that in media.
Beginning this video, I am immediately reminded of Tim Burton’s Alice in Wonderland, which begins as I understand it with Alice attending a big fancy tea party full of rich people in what I can best describe as her underwear and bed head…. Definitely not what they were TRYING to go for but like… making it a point to say she’s not wearing a corset, wearing her hair down, her dress being so short compared with other characters in the same scene… what am I supposed to think? And also, how in heaven’s name did her mother let her out of the house like that if we’re trying to make a point about how oppressive this setting is? It’s just so confusing to me but very clear they were making her a textbook nlog
Actually on Alice, though que wasn't wearing a corset and I don't doubt they could've been trying to make a point, I strongly believe it's more on the not wanting to grow up and less on the uncomfortable trope we all know. Adding to this theory the mentioned fact that she is also wearing a shorter skirt which is more associated with children's clothing. At the same time she's always portrayed as a very childish person which her clothing would clearly reflects therefore reinforcing my theory.
Please leave me your thoughts. I don't mean in any way to be rude ir disrespectful ir cause any harm I just want to have a healthy respective debate in the point you presented.
sofia velasco this is an interesting way to look at it, I hadn’t thought about it like this! I think my main issue considering this element is still… why did her mother let her leave the house like that? If this was a conversation at home before they’d left, I think it would get across that point that Alice doesn’t want to grow up much better AND comment on the restrictive nature of Alice’s society. I think the hair, too, could be treated as a visual element to show her journey: her mother forces her to wear it up for the party even though Alice doesn’t want to, she runs off and takes her hair down when entering wonderland, reentering a central aspect of her childhood. As for her fancy clothes and corset, she grows and shrinks so much through that movie I can’t imagine they’d stick around for very long. Then at the end, I’d have her hair sort of half-up and half-down, showing that she’s accepted her age but refuses to leave behind her inner child or some such when she goes off to do her trading stuff. This is, of course, all wishful thinking and what if’s, but I think it would be really neat if they had pushed any themes like that-Alice being stuck on her childhood is an interesting idea that would be cool if they’d explored it. I have a lot of other issues with the movie (since Alice in wonderland/through the looking glass has always been one of my favorite books) but I think what hurts most, in retrospect, is the wasted potential of the film that comes from relying on tropes like a wonderland prophecy rather than allowing Alice to become a self-made hero: not “everyone’s telling me I must be this so I have to go and do it-“ by that logic, she’d have to marry Hamish in the real world- but instead “there’s a problem, and these are people I care about, so I’m going to go and fix it any way I can, regardless of how people think of me.” And I just think it’s a bit of a shame that they fell short of that.
@@myglasseskeepslipping One of the issues is that Burton's Alice took some aspects of the American McGee's Alice game and so we are to see Alice as not entirely mentally stable and part of that is the visual aspect of her clothes and hair. Mostly, though, it's Burton and his aesthetic.
Her mother literally tells her in the carriage on the way to the party that she's "not properly dressed" because she doesn't have a corset, and she replies to her mother "Who's to say what is proper? If it were decided that it was proper to wear a codfish on your head, would you wear it? To me, a corset is like a codfish."
This scene is so egregious in how it plays to this trope I've never forgotten that godawful scene
Yes!!
This definition of "misogyny' because women complain about corsets in movies is ridiculous. The first time I saw a movie scene about corset tightening was in "Gone with the Wind", which was written by a woman who was alive and had older family members during the corset era. There is a line in one of the Laura Ingalls Wilders books about how a younger sister wanted to wear a corset and older sister said be thankful you aren't old enough, you won't like it. It wan't something made up by men recently.
Gone with the wind was to show she tight laced and was vain and what she was doing was not a norm as for Laura Ingles that book was edited by a man and had parts added and events changed the big woods actually after the prairie and in Little House in the Big woods they go to a wedding in which they are all getting ready and somebody says that most corset was so tight at her wedding that Paul could wrap his entire hand around her waist and his index finger and his thumb touched and how Laura felt proud of how people were talking about her mom does that seem physically possible no it was exaggerated and although women did write it the reason for their riding whether to point out someone's vanity and something like tight lacing or comparable to Kim Kardashian wearing four pairs of Spanx and calling it what every woman does and it's a miserable feeling to an exaggerated book publish and edited by men
Yeah also the corset debate goes back to the very early 20th century if not the 19th so... Gone With the Wind falls slap bang in the height of that discourse.
So because two people complained about it in their books on the tail end of corset debate and them going out of fashion means that there was nothing misogyny related about the fall and villainizing of corsets, even though men WERE literally the ones to start the idea they were bad, "coincidentally" just before their decline? I don't get what you're saying here.
People are aggravated by the trope because it's overused, especially in eras where corsets were the normal thing and with people who strictly used them as a support garment. People are aggravated because it only makes sense in specific contexts which are almost always absent, and instead it's being used as a way to spit on feminine women in history for just existing in their time period. It's like the "oh my gosh these heels are so uncomfortable isn't someone dumb if they wear them?" trend, except cprsets actually had a use. They were literally just pre-bra/shapewear bras and shapewear. 90% of dresses today still have a corset feature, it's just made as part of the dress. That's the issue
People love to use the “corsets were not uncomfortable or anti feminist they were just bras” when women to this day rebel against bras as a feminist statement too. Like I get sometimes the anti corset stances are exaggerated but it was not a made up thing, and there’s a reason they went out of fashion. Like yeah a piece of clothing can’t be anti feminist but there’s a whole documented history of suffragettes reveling agains feminine conventions, it’s a nuanced topic!!
@@susanalopez5052it is indeed a nuanced topic, but even today the rebellion against bras screams so much of skinny privilege lol, like a lot of us need actual support. Also, the corsets going out of fashion is primarily because our clothes evolved into lighter materials that don’t require distribution of weight (a function of stays) and also because we have stretchy material to make simpler support garments in the form of bras. I’d hazard a guess too that there’s a lot to do with the rise of fast fashion and people not making their own clothes, as for corsets/stays to be comfortable, they should be custom fitted (made yourself or by a seamstress) - something which nowadays isn’t accessible to most due either to cost or lack of sewing skills. (Not saying that lack of sewing skills is some terrible thing, but just demonstrative of changing priorities and a world where clothing is more accessible from retailers for cheap prices!)
The chariot corsets absolutely cracked me up 😂
Same! 😂
At this point "anti-corset" has definitely become litterary short hand. I feel like the reason no one is considering the implications is because it's such an easy way to establish a character as progressive. I feel like writers use this in place of an actual exploration of what it means to stand up for women, which is a shame because they're brushing past the thing being "anti-corset" is meant to symbolise.
Well but isnt fighting for gender fluidity in clothes, by wearing clothes that aren’t specifically looked at as feminine at the time, Feminist?
Gender non conformity is def a part of feminism
The amount of laughing/cackling I was doing at the corset lacing has erased any doubt my neighbours have had about me being a witch.
A word in defense of Jo's clothing in the 2019 Little Women, it wasn't just for the "I'm not like other girls" statement (yeah, that's annoying, we can agree on that). Jo and Laurie share a wardrobe, and you see them wearing the same clothing at different points in the movie, which was a way to underscore that the two characters are basically the same person. Jo loves Laurie because he's the other part of her self, and the clothes make that statement. (Greta or Jacqueline talk about this in some of the interviews.)
exactly like some people in fashion dont know the film world but if they would just dive into film and directing, they would realize not everything is for a single purpose in fashion
That could still be done AND be historically accurate
@@YTistooannoying but it probably wouldnt have the golden trio of saoirse florence and timothee
There’s a reason Wollstonecraft is telling women not to be obsessed with clothing and luxuries, it’s because men at the time were rejecting luxuries to assert their masculinity and their very superior Britishness, which to them, gives them the right to stay in power. That’s why you always see men saying shit like, “ladies Adore their Fashionable cloathes whych is normall and Just so” But if women also reject pretty things and wear something simple like the three piece suit men grow so fond of, they no longer have a reason to tell women they can’t be part of the political sphere. So what Wollstonecraft is saying, is stop wasting your energy with fashion and use it to take your rights as a woman.
What she was also saying, though, even if she might not have wanted to, was 'if you enjoy this frivolous fashion thing, you deserve not having any rights as a woman.' I agree that telling women 'take interest in the wider picture and not just in that small slice society deems acceptable for you' is good. Yet if you put it down by saying 'that slice isn't worth your interest,' you automatically tell women who are truly interested in this that they are worthless and shouldn't have more rights.
@@cayreet5992 I think she was right in rejecting consumerism as an inherent feminine thing.
@@desolateleng9943 Yet, the 'not like the other girls' thing is deeply anti-feminist, because it suggests that all 'girly things' are worth less than 'manly things.' A girl has to show boyish/manly traits to be recognised as worthy and that is definitely not feminine. Consumerism isn't feminine. Consuming happens for men and women alike. A woman buying new clothes isn't consuming more than a man buying a new car, for instance.
@@cayreet5992 No it doesn't. It is a rebellion against being told that a women should have to dress a certain way. Perhaps immature, but a reaction to societal norms. Which are still going strong today, let's not pretend differently.
It's also a rebellion against the notion that certain traits or behaviour is unnatural for a woman because they are "boyish" or "manly".
A woman buying a new dress isn't consuming more than a man buying a new car, sure, who said anything different? It's still consumerism. There's nothing wrong with a little frivolity in our lives, but we shouldn't try to pretend that our frivolities are anything than what they are.
@@desolateleng9943 The point about the whole 'reject what society is expecting you to do' thing is that at that time, being dressed as society expected you to showed you had your stuff together and could be considered a good member of society (hence potentially someone who could be trusted with things). Even poor women tried to find ways to 'move with fashion' because it meant showing they were responsible members of society (in the eyes of society, this is not a natural law).
Rejecting all that is considered typically feminine to be accepted as someone who can be trusted with things which women are not trusted with means agreeing with society (men, usually) that a woman in general can't be trusted with these things. By rejecting your femininity in order to be taken seriously, you agree with those who are not taking you seriously otherwise that they're right.
A woman can wear fancy clothes and at the same time be a politician or lead a company. One does not make the other impossible. A woman can be interested in fashion and still be sensible and capable of taking care of her own life. Therefore telling women to 'reject their frilly fashions and dress like men' to be taken seriously is not the best suggestion to make.
As someone who constantly complains about wearing a bra, I feel like complaining about a corset is probably accurate. I do think it’s overdone but if they are readjust them and giving each other a knowing look it’s a good node to the struggles of having breasts
did you try sport bra / not wearing bra at all?
@@g.yad.4758 I only wear a sports bra but as a E cup, its not comfortable to go without one.
@@carolbaker2773 sorry, that's harsh
you must have a killer silluette though
Given that a corset would spread out the weight of the breasts across a much wider space, it might actually be more comfortable to wear a corset (not tightlaced, of course, but snug to the body) instead of the bra.
@@cayreet5992 uhh no if you actually like moving your torso freely
I just wanted to add to this conversation that while things like "dressing impeccibly" in order to gain respect and get one's political goals accomplished is a common route for activism, it also plays heavily into respectability politics, which is it's own negative can of worms. While I understand the point you're making, I don't know if I would necessarily hoist it up as a universal good, or as the only activist strategy that works.
Exactly.
She never said it was. Just that thats what they had to do then. She even mentions how in modern times the idea of having to fit in to effectively share your ideas isn't as true as it used to be.
@@theekatspajamas Perhaps op was so distracted by the possibility of not only ranting but correcting someone on a matter they have feelings about that it turned their ears off.
It's a tricky line. The bloomers section made me think of "the patriarchal bargain," where we as women decide which feminine expectations we'll enact in light of the privileges and protections offered -- which overlaps a great deal with respectability politics.
There's that, and I'm not disagreeing. But there's also the view that if someone dresses poorly or sloppily, they are somehow more honest and true than someone who dresses well. It's not just an American attitude, but I associate it with the U.S. because of Ben Franklin dressing down and somewhat looking down at the French court -- while asking for their help.
What if Jo would wear loose clothing because it was more comfy? I mean. She never makes an statement about fashion. She just do her thing.
i mean i know people aren’t the biggest fans of the costuming in the 2019 little women in general, but to say that it’s totally presenting dressing in a feminine manner as “bad” feels a little off. i think in that movie, part of the point is that amy is just as important to the story as jo. maybe it’s an ultra modern interpretation, but jo learns from amy and amy being feminine and sees the value in that. part of the point of the movie is celebrating those differences in how the sisters all embody their femininity. and part of the point i think is jo realizing that her dislike of those things is shallow. maybe it’s overall not totally realistic to the time period but to claim that 20-9 little women totally supports that “not like other girls” trope kind of invalidates amy. just compared to some of the other examples listed, little women has multiple examples of women in her sisters and mother. i think equally important is having multiple well developed and unique women in these stories allows there to be more nuance and makes it clear that jo is not in any way better or worse than her peers
Wollstonecraft isn't a feminist? lol what is wrong with you. Also using a picture of ANNE LISTER on the prev pic of the video? Yea I guess it's pretty cringey and "not like other girls" to be a lesbian gender non conforming woman. Give me a break. You can love historical fashion, acknowledge that corsetts weren't literal torture instruments and still recognize historical and sociopolitical context. It's not that hard. Fashion is always an expression of societal developments and I feel kinda weird having to tell that a youtube whos literal job is talking about historical fashion. So ignoring that context for the sake of "just feeling good and fangirling" over fashion is incredibly short sighted. Again: You can adore, wear, talk about historical fashion all you like. It's fine, it's wonderful, I do it too. But ignoring the voices of women who actually lived in that time and calling feminists "cringey" because you feel hurt that they aren't validating your hobby is... something else. Recognizing the problematic aspects of historical fashion is not the same as hating historical fashion.
Thank you for this comment! I feel the same way as you do but you worded it much better than I ever could. I was so excited when Gentleman Jack first came out. Shockingly, I had never heard of Anne Lister before! The voices of GNC women seem lost to time, stories untold, so learning that there were women just like me (gender non-confirming, loving other women) all throughout history… it really means the world to me.
Bingo!!! There’s a reason the women we know as historical feminists of these times were traditionally feminine - it wasn’t safe to publicly not be!
Conversations around historical fashion *must* include queer history.
Lol if a woman in a period drama is masculine/gender non-conforming and/or wants something outside of marriage/motherhood, she's a 'not like the other girls'? Lmao
I get that the UA-camrs that say corsets are not uncomfortable have worn them, but a lot of modern women don't even like wearing bras. I tried a dress with boning once. That didn't work.
I tried a dress with plastic boning and it was terrible (plastic heats up, kinks/warps and then can't support any weight defeating the whole point, plus its pokey). And I currently hate bras (used to love them when I could get them to fit me, now... I would need to go custom to fit my particular combination of fit issues). But corsets truly are comfortable. Obviously with the caveat of if they fit well. But the way they hug is just so relaxing (deep pressure therapy basically) plus if an overbust then they provide support by spreading the weight throughout the entire garment, not holding it on a relatively narrow band of increasingly restrictive elastic (elastic always tries to go back to its smallest unstretched state and applies increasing pressure the closer it gets due to physics reasons) and relatively narrow straps over a muscle and nerve group that isn't designed to hold much weight.
I don't actually own an overbust corset (the one I'm wearing in my picture I simply got to try on) but I am certainly going to make one when I can because I just can't with bras any more (they play havoc not only due to not fitting well, but due to my EDS.)
Modern bras are uncomfortable. The elastic warps and rolls up, and begins to rub, dig in and pinch. They're made from plastic fabric and inflexible metal underwires. Corsets were made to mould to shape of the wearer, and modern bra is not.
@@amandag5072 I mean I don't like to wear jeans anymore but sure, let's make a corset moulded to my shape to see how much I like it.
@@melodyclark1944 Yeah I agree jeans aren't comfy and shorts are the worst. I also dislike modern bras and spanx. But corsets are just awesome. When you have made it to fit you it's like getting a supportive hug all day. They just feel right. Not sure why I love the feel as much as I do but corsets just hit different.
@@TailoredTaylor not everyone likes it tho
On the note of corsets and comfort. Laura Ingalls Wilder did write in her book that was based on her own life that she hated the corset and her mother encouraged her to tight lace it and wear it during at night to have a “pretty, small waist”. And her mother also boasted about how her husband could wrap her hands around her waist so that his fingers touched. So there coul be some truth to that myth, people, even working class tight laced for fashion.
Wollenstonecraft's A Vindication of the Rights of Women is really interesting, yes she says some odd stuff, but she also makes very good points on stuff we are still fighting for today.
I highly recommend reading it, and if you are like me and lack time or the attention span, its on audible. She says a lot of interesting facts but something I found interesting that Abby didn't mention here is that she made a huge point about women needing to be independent, and that included being able to dress themselves without assistance if the need arose. Like a lot of the stuff she says is just her racking down her compatriots for their reliance on servants and their husbands, but she's less racking them down but the way they were brought up and educated. She largely blames the system for creating these women she considers just mindless drones of society. Essentially Trophy Wife's of her era.
This is really important, but I think it’s also really important to address that Anne Shirley in the books and the 80s show clearly has textbook ADHD. Or what would be textbook ADHD if they wrote textbooks about girls with ADHD. She IS not like other girls, but not in the way of the trope and it’s incredibly important to talk about it. She has the impulsivity, the distractibility, and the rejection sensitivity that are the hallmarks of how ADHD presents in women and girls. And her family not only loves her but chose to live her. That could literally change someone’s life because that kind of ‘not like other girls’ feeling is incredibly isolating. That’s actually why I stoped watching Anne with an E quite early on, though it took me over a year to figure it out, Anne was no longer relatable to the ADHD part if my brain and it felt wrong and even cruel.
Also, you know there’s a new PBS adaptation as well right? From 2016 and 2017, there are 3 made for TV movies. I’ve only managed to watch the first one so far but it was cute.
It's always been EXPECTED of women to look appealing to men. Many women broke away from what women are traditionaly expected to wear so that we would have the freedom to wear pants, not wear make up, let our hair be free and not wear bras if we don't want to. A woman choosing to not wear "traditional" women's attire is not saying she's better or not like other girls. She just doesn't want to dress like that. I'm grateful for the women that broke the mold. They gave me the freedom to dress and act in a way that I feel the most comfortable in figuratively and literally.
Mary Wollestonecraft was a 'quote unquote feminist'?
To be fair, I wouldn't call women who badmouth other women, feminist. Has some of that "not like other girls" energy
I don't think the term existed yet is the only reason
@@kenna163Jesus Christ. Talking about how wealthy noble women should care about more than just clothes is not unfeminist.
This woman in the modern era who LARPS as a historical woman does not know more than an actual woman from that era.
I feel Anne’s corset comment is more about her simply not being used to it. When we were tweens, we had training bras, which had us getting used to wearing a bra, but Anne and her peers didn’t really have ‘training corsets’ so it’s more of a not being used to it rather than “corsets are the devil!!!” Bras are annoying, and we complain about them, so it’s just the equivalent of it.
She shows a photo in the video of child stays for younger girls-it’s literally mentioned
@@songbanana8 huh. Guess I should have paid more attention. But child stays wouldn’t have been as boned or shaping as adult ones, so maybe it’s more like going from a training bra to one with a thick underwire?
Unboned and corded "training corsets" were indeed a thing, but it does take some getting used to a fully boned corset.
@@katieholmes8301 I don’t think they ever show Anne wearing or using one at all. We see her in her undergarments and we also see all of her dresses many times. They never mention one for Anne.
For more busty women, bras are a necessity.
While it can be really uncomfortable without one, sometimes after a long (hot) day it's the best feeling to take it off.
I wouldn't want to be forced to live without bras, but I also would appreciate it if you could go anywhere without a bra when you don't feel like it.
This is representative of my feelings about clothes and fashion. I do like to dress up for occasions. But most of the time I prefer simple, comfortable clothing. Both should be okay. And I wish we all would spend much less time with this topic.
"You have to fit in and then make changes." Actually I've long believed that the existence of more extreme activists makes moderate activism seem more reasonable and therefore more effective. We need both, IMO.
interesting point. i think it has had the opposite effect as well. "you all agree with the most extreme view". But i think there is also a point in there somewhere about how things dont change if you dont push hard for them. Its just more...about knowing when you are alienating the people you are trying to show the path to, and when to push for maximum change and not compromise it. and sometimes that big push *is* wearing something shocking. Like idk Drag has been around for a while, but the modern makeup is far more exaggerated and shocking than it was in the past, but thats what made it intriguing to many and led to an ability to recognize it and furthered its popularity and acceptance in a way that it didnt have before. *wearing it* is not mainstream, but elements of it were adapted into makeup techniques and just made many products more common. Drag itself is still a conflict within society, but it became far more accepted by those who were unaware of it, because of how shocking the clothing is. Its not exactly a feminist thing, but it does highlight fitting in isnt necessary to progress society.
I’d argue that how ‘shocking’ it looks, usually increases the dislike amongst those that already dislike it - or makes them feel at easy because now they think it’s just silly & thus beneath their notice. I do know some who solely like it because of the make-up, since they like makeup heavy carnival/mardi gra styles.
Some steam-punk museum gatherings I went to had costumed visitors in similar make-up aesthetics, and it further cemented some of my relatives beliefs that ‘steampunk’ is people dressing up as edgy clowns or demons. 🤷♀️🤷♂️
I feel it should've been pointed out that Susan B Anthony was using feminine dress as respectability capital while doing crimes (voting while female) and getting arrested. Seeing a woman who looks like they could be your wife or mother get arrested is more rhetorically powerful. Similar to 60s black civil rights activists tended to dress in their Sunday best while doing sit-ins.
No fr, it was kinda jaw-dropping to hear that being said. It was, in the most respectful way, the most white feminism thing to say. There are people who will never accept me because of my ethnicity, but poc have done a lot of work. How do you mention Two-Spirit people and other queer people and say that in the same video?
@@sodaandstars4389She was not talking about what you should do today, but about how things were historically.
“Burlesque Susan B. Anthony is nothing but a red shawl” I almost pictured it in my head.
I always hated the not wearing a corset trope in historical costume dramas mainly because its the same as a woman leaving her house without wearing a bra to go to work or a social event. Doesn't really happen.
Of course women leave their houses without a bra to go to work or other places. I do it literally all the time. Bras are not corsets, their usefulness is somewhat limited when you don't need breast support. Corsets were doing more than that, so it would have been more complicated to skip them. I dream of a world where bras are seen as the useful tool they are, without being considered mandatory in women's wardrobe.
I am a woman who goes without a bra and I am very confused by this statement
And no it's not a feminist thing I just dont like clothes they make me too aware of my body, I cant wear pants either I have to wear skirts
@@thepinkestpigglet7529 I meant going to work or a social engagement without wearing a bra if you need one for support. I only add work because most places will require proper under garments if they are required by breast size.
Modern womens clothes are mostly designed with a bra in mind, so you have to wear one for clothes to drap properly.
@@ladyfeonyx1822 in modern world "bra", when not used just for comfort of large-breasted people, is worn to conceal the natural shape of the boob. Because God forbid anyone sees that you have nipples, or that your breasts are not actually perfect half-spheres.
It is not about how clothes fit over a bra, it doesn't change that much.
@@ladyfeonyx1822 that's sexual harrassment and in my specific case discrimination against people with disabilities and any employer who comments on my breasts will hear from a lawyer