AP Bruisers: Why Are There So Few Of Them? | League of Legends
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- Опубліковано 23 тра 2022
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One of the lesser known groups of champions in League is the AP Bruiser category. Most juggernauts consist of physical damage dealers, begging the question, why? Why are there so few magic damage bruisers? It's actually a lot harder to design them than you might think!
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you forgot about gwen
@@fsdggsdf I was about to say that
You also forgot Alistar and morgana as an ap bruser, similarly they can both be played with everfrost and fimblewinter to play as a hyper ap tank that can peel
“I don’t wanna run into 4000 hp Veigar who still oneshots me”
Late game full tank Veigar: Allow me to introduce myself
min 40 4000 hp and 200 armor with 1.6 k ap
@@nsreturn1365 with a banshees. 🤢🤮
I mean Veigars last 2 items are mostly full tank items.
He only needs Everfrost Rabadons and Void Staff and then he mostly takes items like Anathema's Chains, Gargoyle Stoneplate, Force of Nature and Dead Man's Plate.
My favorite mid lane build to play.
But the thing is tank veigar will never work in the early and midgame you would have to build full ap then once you get enough ap you sell your items and build tank
I feel like talking about Gwen would have been important, since she is the incarnation of AP Dps with her Q and E. She also builds lots of the AP Bruiser Items, making her very viable for this list.
I was wondering why Gwen wasn't on this list
And she has inbuilt lifesteal like most bruisers too. It is not that only bruisers have it, but it is an iportant stat for them. I actually really like gwen and I would say... Maybe she is the only bruiser(like [if not exactly]) champ I play if I would have to answer quickly.
Didn’t riot market Gwen as a AP bruiser when she was getting teased
I'm pretty sure Gwen is an AP skirmisher and not a bruiser since she has consistently high mobility and persistent damage from her Thousand Cuts. She is a Skirmisher
@@The_White skirmisher and bruiser are the same
Gragas doesn’t even feel much like a bruiser, with his kit so centered around denial and disruption, he’s more like a tank
True
yup I was mildly disappointed when I started playing him, expecting a bruiser. Every guide plays him more like an assassin and his kit is, like you said, more tank-like
Hes kinda split between a tank and an assassin i'd say
That's because he's technically not an AP bruiser, people just used to call him that because the legacy class system classified him as a fighter/mage. In reality, Gragas is just a Vanguard, that being a type of tank. But in his case, building AP is actually reasonable because of his good scaling.
I see most people building everfrost and playing him like a mage
When you build Renekton as AP does he also become an AP bruiser cuz R AP scaling? WIZARD LIZARD
ha ha, no shut up this isnt about you man, let the ap bruisers have some fun
jk all love
Common mage: But you don't know how to shoot that thing.
Renekton: Yes, but it still hits.
*Proceeds to bonk with an unnecesarily big staff*
This is the true way to play league. I'll let you in on a secret..... Double burn AP yorick.
@@RapTapTap69 please don't, at least in my games
No AP bruiser iteams (mostly). Also the way their sustained damage comes across: an AD bruiser (like Darius) has decent base tankyness, self-protection (Q self-heal), but has good sustained damage, all of his abilities apply his DoT, but he can also auto attack. Comparatively, a Rumble's damage comes almost entirely from abilites. Many AP bruisers have an artificial auto attack buff, Rumble has overheat, Mordekaiser's autos apply the passive AoE burn, but really only Gwen's autos deal enough sustained damage to fight against an AD bruiser. (A Rumble would never stat check a Darius if they are both in auto range)
This about sums it up - The lack of designed AP bruiser items. The champion's kit has to make up for the lack of items with essentially its own items. That can consume power budget easily.
@@doodlegarbage6769 I mean, the only two ap bruisers that I can see being reguraly usefull in the meta wich are Morde and Rumble get most of the "magic yet tanky" stats from their abilities(mostly their shields and natural magic pen) when they build Riftmaker if that, then demonic embrace and after that they just go full tank or full mage.
Paladins enjoyer spotted, opinion tolerated
maybe diana can win against gwen in aa idk
i would say, swain gwen and vlad are bruisers too!! like vlad has to combo and has no mobillity etc
Wouldn’t Gwen also be an ap bruiser of sorts?
It's sort of interchangeable, but Gwen/ Sylas seem more of Fiora/Riven category than pure bruiser
A bruiser item that's gotten too big for it's britches recently and moved outside of it's intended role is deaths dance. You can build it on any ad champ and it'll work.
it sucks on ranged champs
@@squidproquo4803 jhin be like
@@squidproquo4803 samira,akshan,vayne,quinn build it
@@squidproquo4803 I disagree.
@@squidproquo4803 Not true
Their items are just horrible. There has never been a time where AP bruiser items (do we even have those? lmao) have been better than AD bruiser items.
Mythics: Riftmaker and Protobelt
Riftmaker is just a worse Goredrinker, while Protobelt is too squishy and doesn't provide what AP bruisers want. Magic pen? Why?
AD Bruisers have 4 mythics, which all at least have their own use.
We don't have anything comparable to Death's Dance, Maw, Black Cleaver, or in the past, Steraks. We've got Rylai's for AP, HP, and a slow. We've got Demonic for AP, HP, and a burn... then there's Hourglass that is balanced around mages, since a stasis is much stronger on a squishy target. I don't want to stasis in the middle of the fight and lose my Conq stacks, passive stacks (as Morde), or have the enemy have time to reposition and get into kiting range. Give me something like DD or Maw that let you KEEP fighting while becoming durable.
Also full builds generally only hit 15 - 25 Haste, while AD bruisers hit 70+ without even trying to itemize for it.
all facts
But all items that are good on ap bruisers, will be absolutely broken on any mage.
#crown of broken bullshit, imagine being able to face tank an entire rengar combo / talon and after proceed to kill him while taking onky 200 damge.
I'd argue thay Riftmaker is stronger than Goredrinker
It feels like ap bruisers don't have build options though. Riftmaker, get one ap bruiser item, maybe Zhonyas and then only tank items
I might be wrong somewhere, but isn't also Gwen an AP bruiser?
She builds survivability AP items - sometimes even tank ones - and is melee?
Was thinking the same. Maybe she's missing because of her mobility which makes her a bit assassin like
@@fis001r nah there is no way he classified her as assassin , i think he simply missed her (just like galio)
@@fis001r she IS designed to be a ap bruiser
Shes a skirmisher
@@volcanicviper5984 Sylas is also a skirmisher and I'd argue that he's more mobile, bursty, and squishier than she is (when Rumble, Singed, and Gragas are even less bruiser-like). Gwen thrives in extended combat, has decent durability, and has backloaded damage. I think it has to be a miss like the enhanced abilities video with Karma.
I always thought AP Skirmishers were more like AP Bruisers as well rather than Slayers. People like Gwen, Lillia, Diana and Elise.
I thought that too
i would say, swain gwen and vlad are bruisers too!! like vlad has to combo and has no mobillity etc
@@vsauce1066 Vlad plays more like a burst mage
@@mozzy2968 pre-rework Vlad was kinda battle-mage/ap Bruiser. The Empower Q just push him toward burst mage
Bruisers are supposed to be slow but tanky, Gwen Lillia Diana Elise etc. are not slow…
The closest thing we have to an AP bruiser item is...Nashor's Tooth. Most mages don't want it.
The fact that Riftmaker has backloaded damage means that Riot knows that AP bruisers need something that most mages don't, I'm just not sure if it's enough.
"I don't wanna see a 4000 hp akali that can 1 shot"
*_Tank Akali enters summoners rift_*
I feel like that'll be awful tho. Akali does like 30 damage with her entire kit, burns you to death with Sunfire while being invisible and then kills you with her ult lol
@@Kilesfactor tank akali was actually a thing a few months ago-they had to rework Chemtank because of it lmao
@@BlackfeatherMain ew wtf
@@Kilesfactor yeah it was awful lmao. Lots of high elo akali players played it be aise it was super strong.
Akali atm has 3000 hp and one shots... So I don't really see the issue with another 1k hp...
forgot about gwen too she was supposed to be a ap bruiser when they wanted to release her
And then she became a skirmisher.
@@The_White most skirmishers are bruisers
gwen's got a ton of mobility that bruisers inherently lack in her 4 second cd dash on E
@@BlackfeatherMain aatrox?
@@user-fv1lc2qm3e Is Aatrox counted as a skirmisher or a bruiser? I guess the line to me isn't clear.
Surprised that Lillia wasn't in this category, considering that she always goes for more healthy and ap itens in top and even jungle. She can use ludens and more squishy itemazation, but that's niche, just like crit garen and such.
Lillia is actually an interesting way to give AP champions damage that is back loaded.
She is more hit and run skirmisher than a bruiser
I don't know why people default to Liandry's tbh. Riftmaker, Demonic Embrace, Cosmic Drive is insane on her. 3000 HP with 600 movement speed in combat while healing indefinitely from passive and Riftmaker Omnivamp is insane.
It's because Lillia has a lot of burst and mobility, and not a lot of innate defense in her kit other than mobility. Sure she has a small amount of healing off her passive but it's not a whole lot.
The fact that he didn't put THE ap bruiser in the thumbnail i.e gwen
I think your forgetting about the OG AP Bruiser....Diana
Gwen is a Skirmisher, that would place her alongside Master Yi and the other duelists, who are then placed in a bigger group called Slayers, which also cointains the Assassin class. She's not a bruiser by definition, even though it may feel like it.
@@Super_Top_Secret_Area Rumble is in the thumbnail and he is a battlemage (the "bruiser" part is mostly early game). Gwen is much tankier and more suitable to melee combat than he is, and even though she's a skirmisher, her gameplay is more similar to mordekaiser than that of master yi. There's no reason why Gwen wouldn't be considered an AP bruiser (ambiguous term) when Rumble and Gragas are. There's only so many champions that can fit onto the image, so we'll see.
@@sabrinaflores795 Pretty Sure bruisers need AOE to be classified that, and I dont think Gwen has that good of AOE to be a bruiser. For example Urgot, Mord, Sett, Darius have high AOE dmg to completely destroy team fights if they can get in range that is.
@@crazygamer1030 have you ever played against a Gwen her q and ult is a lot of aoe damage
Basically every AP item (with some exceptions) are made for shorter fights, there are only "extended fight" mythics for AP: Riftmaker and Liandry's, even then only one of them provides meaninful defense, and it's just because it's the only AP item that gives AP people sustain.
Another point is, as i've said: Meaninful defense
AP Defensive items are Crown, Banshee, Zhonya's.... and they all last for what? a few seconds or one hit.
Why come AP champions get only Riftmemer for Sustain while AD bruisers have Jax's real weapon (that's sunderer btw), Anti-armor cleaver, Eclipse, Viegoblade, R.Hydra? AD champions also have stuff like Maw of Malmorbius and Balance's Dance, Mage's end and Zilean's Angel? Gwen doesn't have any item that gives her defense over longer fights, so she is forced to take an absolutely stupidly designed W to make up for it, Mordekaiser at least is a juggernaut and can reliably tank a little bit more because the juggernaut class has a big statline.
Allow me to remind you: Acording to the LoL fandom wiki, the only AP divers are Diana and Elise, and despite the fact that they have a "dive'em" playstyle, they play it more like assassins.
We just need an item like DD, Cleaver that allows AP champions to "ramp up" during longer fights.
The reason is that regular mages would be absolutely busted with AP bruiser items. Imagine a malzahar or teemo with an AP deaths dance. They'd never die because they get takedowns just by existing. I'm not sure what the solution is and I don't think riot is either. You give mages a slightly tanky item and everyone who is squishy will build it and run rampant. Just look at hourglass
For the cleaver side of arguments, most mages don't wanna stay in fights if they don't have to. If I just slept someone on Zoe, then I wanna paddleball then run before they can run me down while my damage is on cooldown. I don't wanna be trading autos while waiting for cooldowns to make the most out of an item. It would also be hell to balance since liandrys, demonic,Teemo/singed poison, malz aids keep you in combat so the item would be constantly at full stacks
Again I'm not a game dev but I do play a lot of mages and bruisers so I have a bit of experience with both types of items
Funny enough, Morde doesn't have a big statline for juggernauts. His base HP is average for melees and his base armor is one of the lowest of all juggernauts and even most melee champs.
"Balance's Dance" LMAO
Death's Dance is genuinely an insane item tho
Something like black cleaver ap already exist its demonic embrace
@@baptistecochennec5956 Demonic Embrace doesn't do anything against Magic Resist.
Well If aatrox q is already used as an example: to limit the oneshot potential for ap bruisers give them abilities that need to be used multiple times before giving the full Effect. Similar to aatrox q or old mordekaisers. And to give them something to do between the activation e.g. give them ap scaling AA after landen the first hit
I was wondering about that as well. They could also do something like darius, where their big finisher needs set up, just with AP.
The itemization argument still stands in this case. Ap bruisers just don’t have the items to stay alive long enough to build up for that big attack. And if they did, we would see a revert to tank assassins like akali fizz etc. the reason irelia was so absurdly, wickedly overtuned post rework is because she was able to build literally any ad item aside from crit. She had backloaded, front loaded and sustained damage. If you were to give Ap bruisers the itemization to incentivize backloaded damage, it would give champs that already have insane frontloaded damage way too much build diversity.
@@Ghosta085 Easy... Rework how auto's work on magic characters, give them all different scaling to suit their jobs and give more character, lower AP ratios across the board and delete Akali from the game.
Smite has done 2 of the things I've mentioned the magical autos and different attack chains/scaling and it works well.
Some of them are less bruiser-like now. Mordekaiser is a "juggernaut". Meta around Grag shifts from bruiser to tank a lot. And the others can flex into bruisers but are more like assassins (looking at you Sylas and Diana). I think the main issue is itemization. There are mage items that are glass cannon or provide too much safety. It can be seen with tanks as there are so limited "meta" AR/MR items. As an a Pan, Gnar, who flexes, I think they need to bring the other roles to par with AD itemization (despite a couple gripes with that category)
wdym mordekaiser is a "juggernaut"
why add the quotes
@@Tlafsiy its just riots term for a tank-brusier. They are suppose to be an aggressive, oppressive tank. So, darius, garen, skarner, yorick, aatrox, etc. This differents from fiora, cam, jax, pantheon, etc. These are definitely squisher (and so are bruisers or duelists).
That term indicates how long you have been playing the game. It was an large old update to like 5 champs at a time.
Juggernaut is literally a subcategory of bruiser
@@baptistecochennec5956 might as well be its own thing. There is enough of a differentiation. Otherwise assasins who build some tank or duelists, the list goes on, could be considered a bruiser.
One could argue that swain encompasses an ap bruiser, especially after his mini rework. Battle mage/bruiser is what I’d personally classify him as
My suggestion for an ap bruiser item would be an ap item that gives armor and mr for each second you are in combat until a certain cap. This wouldn’t make any mages tanky since they get oneshot anyway but would be excellent on champs like sylas, singed or mordekaiser
Edit: As some people pointed out this would be severely reduced for ranged champions
Mages have cc, long range, sometime shield and a lot of hp they won't get one-shot u combine this item with say crown u get an invincible Viktor or cassiopea
Tanks with ap ratios would probably build this more
And make it melee exclusive to make sure Cassiopeia and the likes won't abuse it.
Kassidin is looking from a far: *”i like this dude”*
that's called abyssal mask
can't wait for this one. I just realized this issue myself a couple months ago when I wanted to find an ap jungler that fit my playstyle. (or more specifically, an ap drain tanking bruiser if one even existed)
Lillia's conqueror riftmaker into tank items could work as an AP drain tanking bruiser, but tbh it takes so long to scale into something that feels remotely powerful on your own.
Gwen jg also works and you're naturally pretty tanky even when going full AP and just defensive boots, and tank items like spirit visage, FoN, and randuin's also work on her (but yeah AP bruiser itemization is and has always been somewhat of a mystery).
@@sophiaascart484 yeah that's the exact issue I had with conq/rift lillia. Plus I found her mana to be a real issue if I'm doing any sort of extended sequence w/o blue buff. Haven't tried gwen yet but I'll save up for her!
I’ve found that Lillia can be built in a lot of different ways that can be pretty successful. The classic Conq/Rift build is probably what you’re looking for as a drain tanking bruiser. If mana is your issue, I’ve found that building a Tear into Archangel or a Frozen Heart work just fine for it. A bit more out there build that I’ve had a weird amount of success with is Everfrost into Fimbulwinter. It’s a good pick if your team needs more utility or the enemy has very slippery champs, especially Yasuo since Everfrost ignores windwall. Heck, I’ve even tried Sunfire Lillia, and it’s surprisingly decent. Basically really fun champ, highly recommend.
@@mason3111 maybe I'll give her another chance. I did play her a lot on release and loved zooming out of everyone's reach, but it feels a lot harder to reach that point since then
Really great Insights.
The thought of Itemization is something I never thought of; Up until now.
Only AP bruisers are Mord, Diana (if built like one), Elise (in spider form), Rumble, Sylas, and Gwen. Lillia and Singed are arguably bruisers. The rest, are either assassins (Eve, Kat, Akali, Nid, Kass), tanks (Cho'Gath, Malph, Amumu, Galio, Nunu, Gragas, Zac, Mao, etc.), or straight up cheese build bruisers who have hybrid scaling like AP Shyv, Voli, Udyr, WW, Jax, Xin, etc.
Shyvana
@@Nik-oj7je no
Sylas and Gwen are skirmishers, not bruisers, they don't even count.
It really is only Mord, Diana, Elise and Rumble
Edit: Allow me to remind you another thing: Rumble never sees play, and Diana(Kinda) and Elise are "bruisers" because they break one specific rule of the assassin class therefore cannot be considered assassins: Elise is ranged and Diana has too much AOE
In other words, the only viable AP bruiser is fucking Morderkaiser, and he is basically useless if he misses his E.
How fun.
AP Jax is the only real AP bruiser
Actually I'd even say the only real champ
@@SonOfSparda03 the only real champ is only mana items mordekaiser it got me to challanger its busted as fk
Quick question,
why isn't gwen on the list of ap bruisers?
I think technically gwen is considered a skirmisher. When Vars refers to brusiers he's mainly looking at like juggernauts and divers. Then again I do agree that Gwen and Lillia should be included on this list since they included Diana which she's primarily an assassin rather than a diver.
@@NastyBuckos diver are like assassin but actually the difference it's more on the mobility part, diver are one dimensional on everything they have is to go in in a quick period, while assassin have more tempo on their mobility in general.
my experience with an ap bruiser (im a gwen main lol) like I really wish we had better items.. the idea is so interesting and I love playing gwen but damn they are forgotten lol great video as usual!!!
As usual, loved the video. My man Galio being forgotten made me real sad. I was really hoping for a even a snippet of your thoughts on him.
Also, why isn't Gwen in this video? Was she not made specifically to fill this role?
Morde was my go-to champ last season, but I still miss the dynamic character that was old Morde =) more diversity for sure =)
Keep up the good work. I eagerly anticipate your Rework Retrospective on Galio =)
Out of curiosity have you ever considered a topic in the future on the differneces between on-hit vs Crit vs lethality for adc’s and certain fighter classes? It’s a topic I had to learn latter on playing League and I’ve seldom seen anyone tackle those classifications. Much like how I haven’t seen anyone go into full AP vs magic pen builds and which is appropriate when
I think you forgot Gwen in your list of ap bruisers.
She's a skirmisher not a fighter.
Gwen: am i a joke to you or am i a true damage bruiser like camille ?
Apart from that lil bug great vid as always keep it up i'm always glad to watch them 👍
They could make an AP bruiser Darkin.
Darkins are severally under used and it would be cool to have one with an lance that scales off AP items
Running sunderer and demonic on a champion like sejuani feels so good the dual pen scaling from divine sunderer is so good on an ap tank
i feel like malphite could afford to get some changes to become an AP bruiser, seeing as his only crowd control is in his ultimate, which feels less impressive to me nowadays seeing that other champions feel like they can do the same and better, like Diana's enguage being unable to flash away from it, or Tahm's new W having the same range and radius(though slower i know) and Vex's combo from a mile away.
especially with Malphite's W claps being an ability he has feeling a bit underwhelming. not sure what exactly i would change, probably his passive is all he would need, since the shield cooldown feels terrible when garen and sett can fullheal while in a minionwave.
i feel like replacing Q entirely with something another melee-range ability might force him to actually fight in lane, maybe a anti-auto ability like rammus W.
@@jojod1029 i would not be against a slam like Aatrox/redKayn/Bel'veth has for a short knockup to replace the dreaded cheesewheel and make him more threatening upclose
@@segafan2437 I'd say, turn his Q to something similar to Mega Gnar's Q. Match his theme as a rock tho. Just hope Riot rework him already. He is pain to play against.
He's R is great tool for assassination, Unstoppable long dash with 1.5 seconds of uncleanseable hard cc and heavy magic damage that can effect all 5 members of the enemy team
AP Bruiser idea: diminishing returns on their AP scaling on abilities. Give them CRAZY high AP scaling on their abilities, but only for, say, the first 100 AP. Every 100 AP after that gives less scaling than the 100 AP before. Then, make AP Bruiser items that give only a small amount of AP (say 45 at most) and some defensive stats, ability haste, and what have you. These items are still good on the AP bruisers because their scaling is amazing with lower values of AP. But standard AP mages, assassins, and even enchanters and the like just can't justify it, because their scalings aren't high enough to make that 45 AP Mythic viable. Meanwhile, the bigger ticket AP items like Deathcap are just less valuable for the AP bruisers, because all that extra AP beyond the first 100-200 kind of gets wasted, and they'd be better off going fort more defensive stats instead.
Riftmaker's effect is probably the best way to go about this. giving stacks to ap bruisers of omnivamp or other useful stats over extended fights , like how conqueror rune works (not now that half champions can fully stack it in 2 seconds) can go a long way. and it won't make burst champions busted as it forces those extended interractions.
I miss Rod of Ages + Nashors conqueror diana lol. The healing with ravenous hunter and taste of blood was insane. Was the best at taking towers while splitpushing while being great at teamfights and can even duel. Had very little weaknesses
An AP bruiser item that I'd like to see is when you have higher max HP that your target you gain bonus AP that scales with resistances. Mages won't buy those cuz they need armor, MR and HP just to make it viable.
Replying for the algorithm thats the single best way to make an AP bruiser item with respect to the other AP champs rn. Hell making an AP Maw of Malmorbius-like item wouldnt be bad either its base stats would be just as strong as the other ap resistance items but the passive would mostly give defensive stats that only ap bruisers would like. Temporary omnivamp and a at base weak shield that scales kinda hard off the defensive stats is what im thinking. Any inputs?
But then if that item provided meaningful AP once those conditions are met, all mages would build that item cause you get meaningful AP for building defensive stats which is any AP assassin of squishy mage’s dream
Yeah, no. Imagine how that item would affect Katarina, that nowadays goes Sunderer almost every game, with Dd and maw sometimes, that can also make use of demonic embrace. It doesn't sound that fun to face a champ that heals with every E, with 3150+ hp, 250 ad, 100+ ap and 120+ armor/Mr right?
@@innstafr3547 ...But she aint bursting you down in 3 or less seconds unless you were an adc, which is kinda the point of items and builds like these. Its just doing a good job at what that build wants. Its like saying Nashors sucks design wise as AP Xin Zhao loves the shit out of that item. You realize a single item making a truly offmeta* strategy almost or fully viable is Good overall for the game right? Besides at that point the problem is its numbers not the effect itself which means inherently the design is good, you need to make sure the application isn't bad. Which means its actually fine as an item, despite how bad the peak of its brokenness may be to fight against. *the build you described is not meta, at most they get Bork and maybe one of the other 3 you named then its full AP from there. Ive kept an eye on masters+ builds of Kat's for multiple seasons, trust me they value kill power over getting to be a bruiser, they just know when they need an onhit item instead of an ap one for that damage, including the times they need a few seconds more to kill and will buy what they need for that.
@@innstafr3547 i mean tbf shes broken and those on hit "adjustments" they gave her last season are what makes her use sunderer
I'd love to see them bring back Rod of Ages in some way for AP bruisers. I miss it so much on Galio
I loved playing him like a juggernaut in season 9 and 10, but now he either goes full ap or is essentially just a Support
@@Eldex0 yeah he's really not my tanky magic boi anymore 😭
kassadin suffered a lot since the removal of RoA
I play Wildrift, but Rod of Ages is there. Is it removed on PC?
Love that Dynasty Warriors music being used ❤️
The fun part of Shyvana is being a hybrid bruiser. Even when you build a crap load of ad, you end up doing primarily magic damage. Your w and e do magic damage, no matter what. And both gain damage from ad. Her e has better ap scaling of course, but if I remember right, her w damage scales with ad but it converts ap into move speed. That’s why sorcerer’s shoes are always good for her. This is why I end up with weird looking builds on her, I like experimenting with her
Even when going AD, maxing E first is still the best for dmg, although W is better for clear speed/moving around the map. the rest of her kit simply isn't on par/up-to-date
@@alexandregehin8665 yep, I always max e first these days. It still slaps either way
Funny thing is, Veigar is the only burst mage who can build almost full tank items, And still one shot you like a Syndra
Despite him being primarily a mage, I see a lot of Swain players wanting him to be a bruiser. I do see where they’re coming from,
Swain is pretty much a bruiser, since he is classified as battle mage, but he lacks the burst damage most bruisers have, and his consistent damage even got nerfed after the mini rework.
@@milonchello1643 Imagine saying swain lacks burst damage lol.
@@martingarm2872 Dude, they massively reduced his damage, his burst is lower now than it was before the rework. His ult ap ratio got nerfed, pull doesnt do damage and iirc his q also got it's damage nerfed.
@@martingarm2872 he doesnt check all his rations his main dps is q and ult (and w every 18 secs or so)
I think that AP bruiser could work if its abilities had an invert scaling like for example it would give itself a shield based on ap and while the shield is active it would deal dmg based on its health or a powerfull strike that scales with armor and magic resistance while ap increases the scaling of those components. The idea is a champion that uses ap in a different way than straight up damage.
Fiddle and gwen could also easily be added to that category, being that they do build a few tankier items from time to time, also including riftmaker.
Gwen yea. Fiddlesticks? wtf no. Fiddlesticks doesn't go for long fights. He relies on frontloaded burst damage nukes, building full pen and ap. I've seen some go tank fiddlesticks, but that seems more like a meme than an alternative playstyle.
@@joseph4445 but swain tho?
The problem with them is the fact they’re AP. AD Brusiers need HP/Def and Damage but Marksmen need AS/ Crit and Damage, thus allowing for two separate item pools. What does an AP Bruiser want? HP/CDR and AP, the exact same thing other mages want. You can try making AP bruiser items not give mana, but even then, mages would still happily give up mana for more damage and survivability.
When the only true APB is Morde and maybe Gwen, there aren’t enough AP bruisers in the game to find out what type of stat combinations would work in their favor, but not general mages.
I think damage reduction based on HP and on what range you're fighting the enemy would be cool, like no mage would be dumb enough to jump into the battlefield and get cc chained to death so only actual AP bruiser who can survive like Mordekaiser can build them
Here is an idea: design ap bruiser that converts all AD they build into AP. Boom issue solved lol Or is that 200 years?
He is not ap then he's just ad that does magic damage
corki the brusier. it would also be really bad as it has to be that there abilities scale off ad and dose magic dmg like corki not the ad be converted into ap as ad is more expensive than ap so gives less per item
in fact a lot of champs that were initially designed as tanky juggernauts became more glass cannon in a bid for viability, Gragas was once a tanky ward-placing cinderhulk who would engage fights and last a while as a disruptor, now he either builds AP predator jungle or full support on occasion with yasuo and blows the fuck up whenever he engages or doesn't get to 100-0 someone from brush. Galio had a brief stint with Full AP builds(not the overtuned PBE disaster, he just built more AP for a while years ago), and Zac was even reverted to encourage people to build demonic embrace as we stray further and further from the S7 worlds deathball tank meta. With the durability update fast approaching maybe we might even see a resurgence of some bruiser builds but with the damage creep since the item rework, likely not.
My idea for an AP bruiser is actually taken from Karma's tether - multi powered abilities. Q could be a slow but if the target remains close to the caster, they take damage once the slow times out. Basically, design the first part of their abilities to be some kind of CC or sustain tool and then give them damage if a condition while using those abilities is met.
It's a dilemma with these bruisers and ap assasins when it comes to itemization. Whatever items ap bruisers have, will be deadlier on ap assasins. I mean we witnessed ad assasins use bruiser items for a while before it got nerfed heavily. Whats to say a scenario like that won't happen to the ap bruisers and ap assasins?
Also I love how Vars uses Akali when mentioning Lethality and Armor Pen
With the future release of Bel'veth, more champions whose abilities scale more with stats beyond raw AD or AP seem to be coming at the forefront, and this gives me an idea about what kind of ap bruiser could exist in the game.
What this AP bruiser type would need is to favour a stat that is different to the one usual battle mages would need, either through kit synergies or extra scaling. One good example would be AS scaling a la Yasuo or Yone in one of their abilities, to make them consistently spam them in the middle of a fight while staying close to their targets. It is not enough that they stay in close range, they have to favour a playstyle that differentiates them from their ranged counterparts.
Itemization cannot come first, because there is no specific direction in which they could go. There can't be a Steraks for AP Bruisers if we do not fully know yet how AP bruisers are supposed to look like in the first place. Some ramping up effects are a good place to start, and Riftmaker and Demonic Embrace already go in that direction, but what else would they need would have to come from having a pool of AP Bruisers in the game first..
3:33 actually, the first ap melee champ to pop up in my head when you said that was sylas
Wich is strange considering ekko is my third highest mastery champ
So I've always had a theory about item abuse relative to classes: passive class scaling from stats. For instance tank items are too strong on akali, assasins should have a 90% scaling ratio on Armor and MR while maybe tanks get 110% making it way easier to balance the items to a specific class without completely locking them off. Apply that same concept to AP bruisers, what if they had a 110% Resitance scaling. Then you could release a fairly weak defensive mage item or two that are solidly mediocre at best, but when placed on a champ with the correct scaling ratios becomes pretty strong?
Some champions are hard to pinpointed the class/subclass they're in so I don't think that's gonna work.
Simple way to fix them but not for balance: Each mana is converted to hp or something like that.
So giving them Singeds old passive?
So, Fimbulwinter? Doesn't work for Mordekaiser and Rumble since they don't have mana to begin with
As to items, there is the cosmic drive route - lock the full potential of an iten behind a stat requirement, only defensive this time. Say, item X gives you 60 ap, but if you have over 3000 health, it ramps up to 100.
Depends on how you build him, but I'm particular to AP Bruiser Volibear myself. Going PtA, rushing Nashor's Tooth, then building Riftmaker is a fun time for me. That damage isn't frontloaded as he needs to stack up his passive to really get the damage pumping, but going AP also allows him to have more survivability/damage with his E.
For me AP bruiser items should have a similar case like DE where the burn is stronger for melee users than ranged users since most AP bruisers are melee. further classifying them from mage and an AP bruiser
As there are only a few AP bruisers out there and most of them have to force buy some standard mage items because there isnt much options overall for their class.
Having Ap items that are for melee champs only could be of help so that melee ap scalers are the only ones that could use them similar to how the old both hydras was only for melee champions
Well there is my point
Make ap bruisers have high magic base dmg
Make some ap bruisers that gives hp/resistances and a small amount of ap + some magic pen
Make mages have less base dmg and more ap scaling so they won't be able to use the news ap bruisers items
And finally nerf veigar cuz he will be the only one able to abuse ap bruisers items
i think nashors and rift maker are examples of well designed ap bruiser items. rewarding extended trades with ekstra damage. lich bane also has parts that could be good for ap bruisers but it suffers from being a good assassin item. I think a good item for ap bruisers would be something like abyssal helm with a more ap focus.
Im curious to see where my main Sylas stands, as he is much more a hybrid of bruiser/skirmisher and assassin. I almost feel like they added the healing to his kit to supplement the trash ap bruiser items we have, so since he doesn’t really need an item for healing, everfrost became such a perfect item for him simply because of it’s utility and cdr. To this day he is still my favorite league champ for sure.
He's really comparable to an ad bruiser that scale well a bit like Jax but full ap if you ask me
ah yes, the bruisers that can't build death dance and maw
Unfortunately no bruiser can build law.
@@komgoo4974 lmao I just noticed my error
@@komgoo4974 Yeah. As long as Sterak exists, there is no reason to take Maw for any bruiser.
This Vid is so wrong, Wdym AP items can be built by everyone??, If an Akali builds Liandry and Demonic Embrace they will become more tanky and dps reliant champion than a burst assassin, It's literally the same with AD, If a Yi builds bruiser they will become more tanky but deal less damage but if they build crit they will deal more damage but be less tanky, If you build Luden Echo on Morde his playstyle will become more of an assassin bc Luden gives more damage than Riftmaker but gives less defensive stats but that doesn't mean he's equal to Lux in damage, You can't say Lux is op bc she can build all the items like you said, AP Champs have restrictions too, Burst champs can't build sustain dmg bc they will deal less damage and probably will never utilize the sustain it gives, DPS champs also can't build burst bc their kit relies on spamming and if you build burst on them they will only deal damage on the first the falls off or probably dies in the first second due to the fact that burst items gives no sustain or defense(That's like saying Kayle can run Night Harvester as good as Akali) and It's not just AP that matters in mages AH is good for battle mages since they rely on DPS, If an Ahri builds AH it can be hard to burst someone bc you're trading things like MPen, Item passives exists too, A Burst can use Luden and Night Harvester better than DPS, A DPS can use Riftmaker and Liandry better than Burst, Yes Bruiser can build Burst but they aren't as tanky as before that's the same with Assassins building Bruiser
I think the best thing to do for AP bruisers is to make items that can shift their damage from the front to back. Items like Riftmaker and Embrace come to mind, items that let you be stronger later in a fight. Nashor's tooth also fits here. It's stat profile also makes it not the best at up front combat. Lich Bane also sort of fits but it's ability to be preped means that it's more used as burst tool rather than an extended fighting tool.
Basically they need to make attack speed more appealing to AP champs for a bruiser identity to be better than a burst one
Tbh I've even gone as far to build Zhonya's on my ADC a couple times, and it has worked. Some games you just get deleted out of the fight and your peel either doesn't exist or isn't good enough. There was one game a Zed would just beeline for me and my peel would totally ignore him, so he'd kill me way before I could do much in a teamfight. So i sold one of my adc items and bought a stopwatch. It worked. It worked amazingly well. The Zed didnt even seem to know what to do, and I was in stasis long enough for my team to turn on him. So i built it into a full Zhonya and it worked. I've done it a couple more times since then as well.
It's rare. It's maybe only solo blind/draft picks too cos in a ranked game, your peel should be peeling, but it has worked.
I will always standby that if Riot were to ever do a League of Legends 2 or other kind of extreme megapatch that overhauled things more than all preseasons combined, they should remove the concept of Physical & Magic Damage. I would even remove Armor & Magic Resist, let everything just be true damage. This would make building a team comp much more forgiving since you could focus on actual synergy between champions instead of trying to balance out damage types. Imagine if you're playing Top & the rest of your team comp is Kha'Zix/Akshan/Jhin/Pyke. Now you absolutely NEED to play someone that can both frontline & do a lot of Magic Damage, but ofc the enemy team banned both Singed & Tahm Kench, & the enemy top is playing Sylas who usually wins against Cho'Gath, Mordekaiser, Rumble, & ESPECIALLY Malphite, so what's left? Lillia? Gwen? AP Volibear? TBF that last 1 COOOULD be worth, but that's a massive rut to be in assuming you're not a 1-trick & they somehow didn't ban it
ew fuck no amor and magic resist are the only good stats in this game
I think there are plenty of tools out there to design AP bruisers without allowing them to just build full AP: backloaded damage.
This could be implemented through a stacking system, like Vel'Koz or Varus, or perhaps a delayed mark like Evelynn or Zed. Give them the high damage when they pop the stacks / mark, and maybe depending on how they pop it they can do either flat damage or %hp damage.
But by locking the damage behind these systems (and giving them low target access), you would force them to go off-tank to be able to survive long enough to actually do the damage, and their full damage build would be relegated to meme tier, like full lethality Yorick.
This video taught me that turrets deal physical damage. I had legit no idea.
This explains why that Malphite basically set up shop and lived under our turrets the other day.
Honestly, I do think AP bruiser items could take a lot of inspiration from AD bruiser items, you just have to put in the same restrictions.
GA is a very low damage item, and we all already know Zhonya’s gimps a mage’s damage if built 2nd. A low amount of AP on an AP GA could make it a good AP bruiser item. Further, Death’s Dance and Sterak’s Gage all have a major penalty on ranged champs compared to melee champs, that’s a big reason why not many marksmen go DD, not because they need crit or attack speed more, but because the effect is immensely weaker on them.
an AP GA would make mages even more infuriating than they are already. Even if it granted like 40 AP a lategame mage could build it and still have like 800 AP and still oneshot. Veigar would be a nightmare even moreso than it already is.
@@BlackfeatherMain if it have 40AP you would not have 800 AP lategame consistently without gathering storm.
@@excaIiburrito You'd have enough to be a major threat to anything not packing a significant amount of MR. That item, Zhonya's, DCap, Horizon, and Void Staff would be both awful to kill and high damage.
I can see a champ like Ornn, who interacts with itemization, and converts AD from items into ap. He would obviously have to be tuned like mordekaiser, since ad items tend to give less stats than ap items, but I can really see it working like a more complex corki passive.
They can make items specific for AP bruisers like:
Item: Pure Blood Wine
(Unique: Grant Drunken Bloodlust if you have at least 850 bonus health.
Unique: Druken Bloodlust: Increase current Ability Power by 50% and grant 18% bonus Omnivamp).
Loose idea, but might work.
I always thought of Gragas as either an Assassin or an Off tank, specially with that cdr build that lets you spam E to stunlock people
My idea on how to make AP bruisers a thing would be to give them said AP+defense stat items, but lock them on AP Melee champions or something (similar to how they locked Runaan's to ranged champions and the old Tiamat items to melee ones).
I think that for make a good ap bruiser like mordekaiser, we would need to make all mages have a passive like pyke (his passive which doesn't allow him to scale from health items like warmog), so that even if a mage build an ap black cleaver, the health wouldn't scale, but this would be absurd for riot to do just so they can make new ap melee champions that aren't ad
I liked playing Soraka as an AP bruiser, back when Starfall was an aoe around her.
AP + spirit visage + situational tank items meant tough enough to stick in the fight. And though Starfall's AP ratio was a bit low, the stacking MR debuff meant escalating damage.
So: tough, some damage, which was escalating / back-loaded. Definition of bruiser. 🙂
What about like an inverse corki passive kinda, but instead of converting the damage type, give a ad>ap conversion ratio from items, so they could reap the benefits of more bruiser centric items while still gathering bits of damage from AP items with defensive stats.
Now we need a video on AP Marksmen: Azir, Teemo, Corki, AP Kayle, Twitch, Kog'Maw, Kai'Sa, Ezreal, Varus, Tristana.
how is Tristana an AP marksman?
One could fix the items in a similar way to to AD Champions. The AP bruiser items could have a passive that caps the Champs AP at a certain value and transfers any additional AP into Health or Mana. Then normal AP champions could not buy the items so the items stats or passive/active could be way more powerful.
A similiar thing could be done with ability damage. An item could have a passive that lowers ability damage to only 80% but after 3 or 4 auto attacks the ability damage get buffed to 120% . Probably needs to be melee auto attacks ot this could be abused and the actual numbers would have to be adjusted.
I think that ap bruisers could have some built in stat conversion(hp into ap etc), like items will give much less ap and more health or have some scaling based on basic hp or any basic defensive stat
I think to create a good ap bruiser you have to give him some kind of corki passiv, so he deals ap instead of ad damage but scales only on ad. So he could build bruiser items and deal ap damage.
Brusier Diana. I love the reducing of one shots which means bruiser Lady Di is more in the mix. And again I will point out- Guinsu's rage blade causes a double cleave. When the double proc of rage blade kicks in it is Hit, cleave, hit cleave. Combine this with Nashor's, Riftmaker, and Conquerer it makes for (on paper) a very fighty ap champ that lives for the extended fight. You can even choose tanky runes by going tear/archangles for more healing and cdr meaning more up time on your shields up time.
Also- the introduction of MELEE only effects (fumblewinter as an example) I would think could be the best way. The code for AP items would take in effect if a champ is melee or ranged. AP bruiser items would less effective on ranged champs. Build that distinction into them like Riot does with other items.
That is why champions like Mordekaiser take the only real ap bruiser item (riftmaker) and maybe one or two mage items (including demonic embrace) and then goes tank items (thornmail, spirit visage, he also usually builds plated steelcaps).
This is something I’d be interested in seeing is your take on how Smite does it’s classes and itemization. Yes it doesn’t allow for like physical damage being bought on things like mages but they do have things like magical power scaling on auto attacks albeit at a lower percentage than physical. Would be a nice comparison point for the two!
smites classes are boring imo basically every mage feels the same due to the item restrictions as do every assassin etc. it doesnt help how they design the gods for a role and if they migrate they hate it even more than riot do
@@feastedWAfflES magical adcs, burst mages, bruiser mages, Ao Kuang basically being a magical assassin jungler, support mages. Those are just off the top of my head. And outside of niche metas every class does get played and there is variety outside of the restrictions. Guardians regularly go into solo lane as do some assassins and mages. Besides they have more variety in magical damage items than League does it’s AP itemization considering the “every champ can build these” thing which is fun but tends towards either single build paths anyways or gimmick builds being all a champ has left (Shyvana goes from a dueling goddess with on hit and tank to an ap E spam bot)
Voli is also often build Ap-Bruiser
9:06 Talon dying from Jhin's ult killed me as well xD
I've only been playing League for a few months but years ago I played a MOBA called Smite. In Smite they had items that were locked from certain characters that could abuse or weren't meant to use them. I think this would be a good thing for class specific items to be implemented and balanced around certain characters instead of punishing everyone who can use it. Shieldbow (before this attack on healing) for example should've been locked off to Marksman only and then they implement something different for people like Yas/Yone/Irelia etc. I also understand though that the ability to abuse and use all kinds of items is what makes League kind of unique.
I have an idea it seems a little weird but what if we inverted the stats ? Like an AP bruiser who scales on AD but does AP damages or the opposite like doing physical damges out of the AP items it could resolve a part of the problem of AP bruisers that i really love
I think the best options for designing an ap bruiser would be either:
1. Have autos that scale from ap and balance that with lower ability damage aswell as some sustain focused abilities
2. Have your abilities scale from AD but they deal AP damage, kinda like warwick but less hybrid. This would be far easier to balance since it wont screw with items
I have a feeling for AP bruiser items it can sort of be solved if we assigned the items to melee characters instead of ranged. Kind of similar to how only ranged characters can build Runaan's. I don't think this is entirely perfect since ap assassins may abuse this item but then again we had AD assassins abuse goredrinker and other bruiser items so it might be inevitable. Also some AP skirmishers like Lillia might be left out since she's coded as a "ranged character".
i really wish there were some more bruiser AP mythics because the only one we have really is Riftmaker, which i mean holy hell its good on the right champs, but options would be nice
Well if the spam abilities is the problem as u said, a solution would be in some kind of passive that u can only use 1 of ur abilities every 3 or 2 seconds
idea: make an ap juggernaut like corki. so that they scale ad and they build at items, but it is converted to magic damage, whilst still having ap scalings to build those ap items too, giving them better itemization . they could then build steraks without it breaking the mage class, and still buy riftmaker or demonic embrace to still be an ap bruiser.
the easy fix is lower the ap scaling (probably by a lot, or make it do something like X% of heath damage per 100ap) of the ap brusier's skills and make the skills do more than some damage after casting, preferably some healing for sustained fights. these changes will it hard to one shot people even with full ap build and have more fighter quality in the kit.
The only manaless Ap bruiser item is Riftmaker. In order to make AP bruisers more viable give them another item choice. The item I chose to rework is night harvester currently it's just Rocketbelt without Pen. The stats will stay the same it gives 90 ap and 300 hp. The passive I want to change completely. It will have an active called "The harvest", a temporary speed, a shield based on AP, and a small AP, boost for 5 seconds. After "The harvest" is complete it will heal you for a percentage of the damage dealt during the harvest. I think this would be good for AP champs that want to go in for more than 5 seconds. I don't want the damage on it to be the primary focus but rather it gives an eclipse-sized shield and a small ms boost to go in and deal as much damage as you can then heal off harvesting the enemy souls. The heal is going to be the main focus but the caveat is that you can't use it for instant sustain. I would see this item on champs like Elise, Gragas, and rumble who are frontloaded but when their CDS are back up they can go in once more.
Make a ap bruiser that gains resistence from ap, so they have lower damage, range e mobility, but still can have resistences from building damage
I think to make up for the lack of itemization AP bruisers need to have well designed abilities that take the poor item choices into account. Mordekaiser sits really pretty with mostly AP+Health items like rift maker or embrace, and morellonomicon. I've been playing him a lot and I'm here to tell you his biggest weakness as a juggernaut is a lack of resistances. Due to is lack of resistances you need to be very careful when your W is down or else a fed enemy talon will oneshot you from 70% health because your mid-laner is a monkey named Kayle.
i think that ap bruiser items could be a thing if they gave class restrictions to more items, like make ap items that can only be bought by melee champions like how mortal reminder does with ranged, then creating effects that are only benfitial to bruisers like make them based on base stats or something like that, or just limit ap items based on class; after all limitation gives to creativity in some ways.
Hmmm... They could always try to include conditions within the items themselves, like how certain items give less life steal depending on whether the champion is ranged or not...
Great video as always, but seeing a dirk and a prowler right next to akali in the exemple is kinda cursed, ngl. It make me feel a bit strange.
I have an idea for an AP Bruiser champion,
-the passive is the autos deal % max health dmg every auto and they heal for a % of the damage they deal
-the q is a wide slash that slashes based on the amount of times you have auto attack prior, max of 4, dealing true damage in a certain area, perhaps the middle part, and applies her passive every slash|
-the w is some sort of IMMUNITY zone that moves once when you recast it or are outside of it, and you gain bonus resistances inside of it
-the e is a dash that gives bonus onhit ap with some attack speed, and a portion of the cooldown gets reset if you hit something within the onhit's time
-the r is a projectile that applies your passive and a slow, and lets make it have more projectiles for each time you cast it, a maximum of 3 times with a max of 5 projectiles, but you need to auto something in between the cast, to make it balanced
while i was reading this i thought to myself "lmao this would be broken as fuck" then i read the r and remebered gwen
Fantastic design, Riot should definitely implement
I feel like a massive missing part of this are effects that add magic damage/ap scaling to auto attacks. Champs like kayle, morde, and gwen(and nashors tooth) break the idea of ap not being used for auto attacks. Sure the damage comes from an ability but it serves to make ap function like ad for those champs.