Bojack Horseman - Did Bojack Ruin Dr. Champ's Life?
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- Опубліковано 7 гру 2019
- I've got an unpopular opinion. Time to make my case.
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I neglected to mention that fictional universes always start with the rules of the real world, which makes my argument incredibly flimsy. This does not technically disprove anything I said, but it makes certain parts of the video look utterly ridiculous.
Wow, I learned something new today. "Suspension of Disbelief", Thanks @ShadyDoorags!
Personally i think that bojack ruin Dr champs life, but Dr champ ruining his own life as well
Objection: to say the Bojack RUINED DR. CHAMP'S LIFE is hypothesis before fact. The only reason we could say objectively that his life is ruined in the first place is to accept the notion that Dr. Champ cannot come back from this. The last time we see Dr. Champ is about a year later, and while he is drinking heavily there is no indication that this is it for him. He is not dying in a hospital, he is not in prison, he is not homeless. In Todd's famous words of the last episode, he could be doing the hokey pokey to *turn himself around.* So you, my friend, are guilty of head canon.
But, it does disprove everything you said. Suspension of disbelief only works when the viewer is told, or shown, the new rules of this universe that are DIFFERENT FROM THE UNIVERSE THE VIEWER LIVES IN. Therefore, since that fact remains that in the universe you and I live in, anyone with working tastebuds can tell the difference between water and vodka (even if you don't actually know what vodka tastes like, you will know it's not water), we must assume those rules hold true in this universe, unless specifically told otherwise. Choosing to believe that in the BH universe water must not taste different than water isn't suspension of disbelief, it is in fact, the very definition of head canon, i.e. making up rules for a fictional universe that you haven't been told about, or shown.
@@deanjo57790 this is very important
Then how come Bojack (also an alcoholic) took a sip and spat it out?
No. Willpower.
Yeah. Doctor Champ know it from the first sip that it was woodka, but he kept drinking because he didn't learn from his past.
And than when it was all over for him, he just blamed BoJack for all what happened. His life was ruined so he wanted to ruin BoJack's life, but it didn't work on him. He didn't do anything wrong. It was Doctor Champ from the beginning who destroyed his own life. Even in the past that thing with his daughter and his husband. And all this makes Doctor Champ the worst Character in BoJack Horseman from this season.
Because Bojack knew, before he took that sip, that it was vodka in the bottle, whereas Dr Champ didn't?
@@jellybean_91 The second vodka touches your lips, you know what it is. Doctor Champ chose to drink it anyways. No willpower.
Well bojack knew what he was about to drink before he did it.
Dr champ initially tought it was water.
@@tyler_da_wiz have you ever been an alcoholic? Or even spent time with some? Cause I grew up with a lot. They drink vodka like water. Most of the alcoholics I knew when I was a kid are dead now. Do you know how much you have to drink to get to that point? You're being incredibly arrogant for someone who had no idea what they are talking about 😑
addicts in recovery take responsibility for all their actions so although he didn't intend to drink it was his choice to continue drinking
I’m personally in recovery, and if he didn’t know it was vodka it wouldn’t technically be a relapse. Relapse is more about intent then what actually happens
Jeremy Palmer how does it matter if the bottom line is that he is drinking again ?
@Abigail Slaughter if he was terrified his family would leave him because he had promised to never drink again...maybe he should not have gone to a bar to drink again.
The relapse is in willpower. If you accidentally have something spiked, that is not your own failing. But if you then go out to a bar afterwards? You have relapsed. Can an accidental bit make it more tempting to relapse, maybe even force you to go through a bit of withdrawal again? Yeah. But it does not count. And honestly, seems like champ is a good example why. If someone goes "well, fell off anyway, might as well..."
@@benja303 It’s like if a heroin attic gets in a car crash and a doctor gives him morphine for the pain. He didn’t relapse when he was drinking unknowingly, he relapsed when he chose to go to a bar
@@jeremypalmer6167 honestly how could he not know it was vodka, I know this is an old post, but im genuinely curios? I'd understand a human not being able to smell the vodka at first when brining it to their lips, but look at that nose, those nostrils, surely he can smell it, and after the first sip wouldn't he taste and feel it? As someone who drinks way more vodka than I should, I still tatse and feel the burn of straight vodka when I take a shot, if it was like a coke mixed with vodka, I'd get it, but just straight vodka, you'd know after the first sip, or even before it gets to your lips
I honestly can’t agree with the notion that by putting Doctor Champ in rehab, Bojack ruined his life. Doctor had already fallen off the wagon with no intent to get back on. His life was screwed one way or another. He was totally helpless by himself, and Bojack knew that. What Bojack did by getting Doctor into rehab, instead of trying to fix it all himself like he would have three seasons ago, shows that Bojack knows his limits now, and that he can recognize when something can’t be fixed by himself. Look at how he handled when Maddie got alcohol poisoning in Season 2 and compare it to this. He’s improved, by leaps and bounds.
Even if Doctor Champ’s life is ruined, I can’t see how that’s Bojack’s fault. What Bojack did was probably the best anyone else in his shoes could do. I say Doctor Champ screwed himself up and just blamed it all on Bojack.
ollie 100% agree
exactlyyyy
Shady made a mistake in this video calling Dr. Champ a "former alcoholic". That never goes away. Dr. Champ lives under the delusion that he is not an alcoholic. His "life" was built on the foundation of everybody in his circle believing something about him that was not true, which was that he was not an alcoholic (or that he was 100% "cured"). Dr. Champ was willing to do anything that would perpetuate the illusion, likely all while trying to manage binge drinking episodes, but Bojack did not allow this and checked him into rehab shattering the illusion that Dr. Champ's "life" was. So, in my view, Bojack did ruin Dr. Champ's fib of a life, but if Champ stays in rehab and focuses on staying true to himself then it will have all been for the right reasons.
@@stonefaceBRC couldn't agree with you more man.
idk 5 seasons ago he checked sara lynn into rehab
-Bojack spits out and gags on the taste of the vodka before he throws it out the window
-Somehow now the liquid is unsmellable and untastable to someone keenly entuned to it
Makes sense
When the creator of the video doesn’t want to admit they’re wrong
@@TheNamelessNarrator hm? U know champ was wrong right? U know that before u even get a taste, the smell of vodka is so fucking pungent, u just cant mistake it, plus its hard to drink. Vodka is not water, its strong asf and as soon as it touches ur lips you'll know what it is. Plus champ CHOSE to get more alcohol.
@@ItsNothingRichy pretty sure the one you're trying to argue with agrees with you.
@@BionicDeathclaw the person who made the video (shady doorags) point of the vid was that it was CHAMPS fault he got that way, then this person I replied to said and I quote "when the creator of the video doesn't want to admit when they're wrong" which I disagree with.
@@ItsNothingRichy You missed the points they are arguing about. Shady Doorags's point is NOT that it was Champ's life. He is arguing for the complete opposite. I don't think you watched the video.
Youre telling me that Doctor Champ was so thirsty he didn’t taste the vodka as he gulped it down, when we were just shown that BoJack threw it because of that exact same reason?
I'm saying there are many explanations that could excuse that moment. I simply choose to believe that the writers didn't want Dr. Champ to taste the beverage because it worked with their story.
@Shady Doorags OR, he DID taste it and couldn’t control himself. That’s far more reasonable considering Dr Champ’s cowardly attitude towards alcohol
@@ShadyDoorags
How does it work for their story when it defeats the purpose of it? What is the point of the story you think the writers are going for?
@@ShadyDoorags "I simply choose to believe..."
What you choose to believe doesn't matter. The show has always been consistent with it's logic and reasoning. You can't just throw all that to the side to work your narrative.
What surprises me is that he managed to chug all that vodka without *throwing up*. Even hardcore drinkers usually have to take it slower than that to avoid making themselves sick.
Just like Sarah Lynn with the drugs hidden in her home and willingness to get high, the vodka hit his lips and he kept drinking. That's the responsibility, right there.
Dr. Champ is responsible for getting drunk. I agree. Reponsible for ruining his life? Getting drunk didn't do that. Informing people that he got drunk did. Bojack was the one who informed people.
Didn't Champ say that he would lay low in BoJack's room only to run out drinking? He would have lied to BoJack to lower his guard so he could continue drinking.
I agree with you. I think the show writers want to use Champ’s character to illustrate “old Bojack”- namely, that he never takes responsibility for his actions. This makes it all the more significant when “reformed” Bojack walks away from him. I think that when someone tries to justify the fact that Bojack ruined Champ’s life, they can kind of miss the point of the what the show writers are trying to say with Champ’s character
@@ShadyDoorags I'm sorry, but you lost me at the "but that's not what happened" bit. Him getting drunk was going to ruin his life. Addictions are incredibly hard to kick and even easier to fall back into. There's a reason AA and addiction programs base their systems on sobriety. If the head of a rehab facility is running off to a bar after a relapse, that's a pretty solid sign he's on a downward spiral. That being said, I don't think it's Champ's fault either. He was not given the choice to relapse, but it happened anyway and blaming an addict for their addiction is incredibly toxic and short sighted. They don't just magically decide to become addicts, life brings them to it in one way or another. To be clear, taking responsibility and blaming are two VERY different things. Taking responsibility for an addiction is saying "I have a problem, I made some bad choices, and I have to do the work to be better". Blaming is saying "I'm the main cause of the problem because I'm just a bad person". And don't whip that head canon argument out because that's just basic knowledge about addiction cycles. We've even seen this knowledge on display multiple times throughout the show following BoJack's superficial attempts at sobriety and his addiction episodes. Substance abuse leaves a dark hole in you that will always be there no matter how long you've been sober and once you fall back in, it's like trying to resist gravity.
@@ShadyDoorags this Is a difficult one because it depends heavily on the character/ person involved. If the person was likely to be able to move on from their relapse (accidental or not) and simply carry on and restrain themselves, then I think it would have been a dick move and Bojack (unnecessarily) ruined their life.
I know you already spoke about the inaccuracies of headcanon, but I'm going to engage anyway. From the little we've seen of Dr. Champ, he seems very weak willed, and if Bojack didn't force him immediately into rehab in that hurtful way, he likely would have self destructed in a much worse way. I'd even make the arguement that if Bojack hadn't accidentally given him the Vodka he'd probably find himself in a similar situation anyway and relapse the same (spiked punch at a party, toast at a reception, etc.)
i mean, if his husband and daughter really care about him, they’d probably thank bojack for getting champ help and informing them. its the right thing to do. bojack did get him into that situation though, but accidentally consuming alcohol isnt the rarest thing in the world. so its strange that champ was really going to risk living life when one drop is enough to send him back to addiction.
Right? How could any family look down on him if all he had to say was I accidentally drank alcohol, I lost control, I checked into rehab again to stop it instead of slipping again, that’s actually the best thing and it wouldn’t ruin his life at all. The rehab clinic wouldn’t fire him either as they would be extremely sympathetic with this situation.
Not to mention you can see how he drinks it, he knew EXACTLY what it was, not to mention you see him drinking specific drinks, he did not lose his taste.
Rob Gucci I agree, I would much rather my dad be in rehab no matter how many mistakes he made. It’s been almost ten years of us not speaking, but if he called me today and said he was dedicated to rehab I would drive to where he was and be there for him. Just like I was for my mom. I would prefer admitting you made a mistake than blaming others for your choices.
@@joro8693 I'm hoping he calmed down, stopped catastrophizing, acknowledged his fault, and worked to be better
Rob Gucci hahaha
I don't think his daughter is still alive
Okay but the idea that Dr. Champ's life is ruined is headcanon too by that logic
We haven't seen the consequences of Bojack putting him in Partridge's yet.
omg this hit so hard ,,,, i totally agree
This is an excellent point and I feel like the rest of the show supports, for the most part, that your life is rarely permanently ruined. Until you're dead, there are always choices to make and ways to progress, even if that progress is slow and difficult. I mean, look at Bojack. There have been plenty of potentially life-ruining moments for him, but he's learning how to adapt to these things, how to manage himself better to minimize damaging consequences and is ultimately a better person for it. Hell, even if the past does catch up to Bojack, there's still a chance that Bojack can overcome it (and to be honest, it makes more sense from a narrative and thematic perspective if he does).
The biggest difference between these two situations is that Bojack is actually trying to improve and move on from his mistakes. Dr Champ is more like the old Bojack, blaming other people when things go wrong and assuming things can never get better. Maybe once he sobers up properly, he'll gain a better perspective on the matter, but I really don't think he can say Bojack ruined his life when he can't possibly know what the rest of his life will be.
@Liz Lee S6 Part 2 pretty much confirmed Dr Champ used the info he had on Bojack against him.
@@falconeshield Didn't part 2 mention that he also lost his job?
Natalie k yeah, but aside from this video and comment coming out before part two, we can also see that Champ is clearly still on his drinking binges when we see him again..begging the question how hard did he try to quit and\or did he just give up trying
also on S6E1, little bojack in the sailor outfit drinks the vodka and winces, implying that there is a harsh taste in vodka
I just love how you had to have it implied instead of knowing about vodka irl. That's so innocent.
@@likira111 this is in reference to the video. Smh
Yeah as a recovering alcoholic: you tend to really lash out at people who try to get you sober, which is how I read the situation
That seems the most likely. He also never seemed like that great of a counselor especially when he mentions he isnt a licensed therapist. From what I saw he gulped down some of the vodka before he had a chance to realize what he just did and then his old habits came back almost immediately. Him falling off the wagon is bojacks fault since bojack could have just dumped the vodka into a sink or toilet so nobody could get to it.
I think you're speculating too much on this one. Yes, we all have head cannons because the Bojack staff will never say straight what their intentions were and will "leave it up to your interpretation" aka cop out. Why I say it's Dr. Champ's fault is because like you said their is a consistent internal logic in the show's universe and there is some suspension of disbelief involved. However, for the most part given the permanent nature of the plot its hard to think vodka would taste like water in their universe. For me, it's pretty dang simple: Dr. Champ was trying to pin 100 percent of his failing on Bojack. And Bojack showed more maturity in trying to fix his mistake by staying with the doctor instead of leaving him to fry like in New Mexico.
i mean they show how its possible to taste the difference with bojack trying to drink and stopping at the first taste
I think the scene is designed to show that Bojack is finally accepting responsibility for his actions and maturing as a person. Personally, I agree that Champ would have recognized that it was vodka, but I don't think that the point of the scene is to have the viewers determine whose fault it was. I think Champ did say what he said in an attempt to hurt Bojack and I think that the old Bojack would have acted very differently. I also think it's very telling that Bojack, upon taking a sip of the vodka himself, spits it out and throws the bottle out the window, whereas Champ downs the whole bottle and then goes to the bar to drink more. It shows that Bojack has matured and has the willpower to overcome his addiction, contrary to how Champ acts when he's introduced to alcohol again. Even being at the bar, surrounded by temptation and unrestricted by anyone but himself, Bojack resists the urge to fall back into his ways. I love how much he has evolved as a person in Season 6.
You can also add that BoJack had nothing to do with any of the alcohol Champ consumed AFTER the initial vodka bottle. That was all his own personal decision.
And saying “vodka doesn’t taste like water” isn’t a headcanon 🙄 countering that with “Champ lost all taste” is a silly bad faith argument. He really lost the plot on this one lol
I like the part where Champ said that he[bojack] ruined his life and Bojack accepted his blame for it but realized that it was also Champs fault for his failure. This part made me feel better for bojack as he is truly learning and growing as a " good Horsey".
@Abigail Slaughter it was, and I find it ridiculous that I have to explain this to you, three young boys in a trenchcoat doing the thing from the Little Rascals. Reference that I'm positive I quoted wrong aside, I think it would be hilarious if they did an episode one time that revealed Vincent to actually be an adult in a trenchcoat. I would absolutely love that.
As overly optimistic as this may sound, I'm willing to argue that Dr. Champ's life isn't ruined. People can be clean and sober for years and relapse at the slightest trigger. Relapse doesn't mean all your hard work has unraveled. Life isn't that black and white.
Yeah like todd says in the finale you just have to get sober again and turn yourself around
Yes but he likely has done this before. He mentions that his husband will leave him if he relapsed again. He might not loose is job if he had stayed sober after the first instance but losing his family is definitely ruining his life
This whole scenario was also an example of character growth for BoJack as he responds to Dr.Champ’s insults “I remember everything. I’m sober now.”
My favourite line of this season
At no point it’s implied that the vodka in the show is any different from real vodka. And real vodka tastes and smells NOTHING like water
Dr Champ has perfectly functioning tastebuds, and a nose. Someone who actually succeeds at alcohol rehab does NOT fear alcohol like Dr Champ does: he just learns how to live with it. Dr Champ’s concept of “rehab” is just sort of forcing himself to stay away from alcohol and fearing it like the plague, but the one time he’s near alcohol he goes down the same drunkard path. He’s STILL an addict, he just decided to distance himself from alcohol cuz he’s too much of a coward to actually get better like Bojack did.
Someone like that cannot give therapy to alcoholics. I’m glad he lost his job, and now that he MAY actually recover, he can be a better man for his family. If his husband doesn’t hate him he’ll actually be glad Dr Champ is at rehab as a patient.
Can’t preach what you can’t do yourself, and if the AA community in Bojack’s universe is any similar to the real one, they’ll understand and try to get him back on his feet instead of treating him like a renegade (that’s some more insecurity from Dr Champ’s part)
it's my understanding that if not signed into Partridges, Champ would've attempted to remain a "success case" working at Pastiches, effectively becoming a crypto-alcoholic fraud. I hope that after another round of rehab he returns on the wagon and finds an honest living to prove that BoJack did the right thing and make his final rant to BoJack simply an emotion-fueled exaggeration he dropped after cooling off.
@AJA Yeah like, Bojack didn’t call Herb when he got kicked out of Horsin’ Around, but Herb didn’t call HIM either. Both of them just felt awkward about their relationship, but I feel like Herb tried to pin all of it on Bojack in order to feel better about himself because he’ was dying and didn’t wanna go with that shame. And that’s just an example
Thing is most people do not consider themselves "cured" of their addiction. They call themselves recovering addicts. They know full well they can fall back into their additions at any time. It's common for addicts to have a relapse or nearly give into temptation even decades after staying sober.
@@the_viriathus5719 I never actually considered this…
I really don't think you can call vodka tasting different from water a 'headcannon'. It's not something that is an extension of a character or situation that people have theorised and thought about, it's more an assumption anyone would make based on the fact that despite the whackiness, the world of Bojack Horseman does follow most of the logical rules of our world, and there's never been any indication of either Dr Champ not being able to taste things anymore or alcohol tasting different. Personally, one of the issues I had with the scene was that someone who hadn't had alcohol in presumably years and wasn't expecting the taste was able to chug the entire bottle without a hint of surprise or disgust. I admit the headcannon that Dr Champ has lost his sense of taste would make the scene make more sense, but I also think that given there was nothing to indicate this the fact that people are judging the character based on the assumption that he drunk the alcohol willingly isn't really a headcannon, more a logical conclusion people drew from the scene.
There’s not a single mention of the show’s vodka being any different from real vodka, and real vodka tastes and smells nothing like water
Dr Champ ruined his own life. Even if Bojack wasn’t there he would’ve pulled this kind of shit the next time he got anywhere close to alcohol. If it’s so easy to get him down the dark path again, then he’s not rehabilitated and can’t be a therapist for alcoholics
Well thought out, I agree with you. Not headcannon to think that Bojack’s pool is full of water, even though it could be literally anything, just because it wasn’t explicitly stated. Not headcannon to think that Bojack wore a fish helmet in his silent episode because he can’t breathe underwater, like a real horse, even though we’re never specifically told why he needs one. Spot on analysis
Jonathan Lee, This reply made me lol. You make a good point. At what point do we stop calling something a headcanon?
Personally, I think when we're presented with something that goes against reality in a fictional story, we can immediately believe it's a part of that world unless something previously has established it to be untrue. (Though this is not universal, there are times where it's too far of a stretch even for me). So if at some point, Bojack said "I always keep my pool filled with soda." I would immediately search my brain for instances in the story that would prove that untrue. But since that hasn't been said yet, we can still use real world logic and assume that it's filled with water.
I agree with op here. Tbh He prob knew it was vodka, had a taste, and couldn't stop. Relapsing is very easy, even for addicts who have come a long way
Big fan of your videos Shady, but just disagree with you on this one. You presented your evidence and I can understand your argument, but I stand on the other side of it that’s all! Thanks for putting out a controversial video like this and talking with your viewers- helps me better understand your point and I know it takes a lot of effort on your part. Keep up the good work!
It's not a headcanon but more of an inference. As the audience, we don't need to be told verbatim that Dr. Champ likely knew he was drinking Vodka and not water. We can infer his awareness due to the properties of vodka and how they differ from water. Both liquids are clear, but vodka has a distinct smell and taste that anybody, especially a former alcoholic, would be able to recognise. Therefore, we can infer the thoughts of Dr. Champ without having to be explicitly told. At the end of the day, Dr Champ. is an individual with agency. Nobody forced him to drink after the first sip, and nobody forced him to keep drinking after it was over. Relapsing is common and normal for addicts trying to recover, but it's up to them to keep up and get back on track.
I understand what you are saying but I think the point he is trying to make is that regardless of the properties of water and vodka in our own world that doesn't necessarily mean that's how it applies to BoJack's world.
I understand what you are saying but I think the point he is trying to make is that regardless of the properties of water and vodka in our own world that doesn't necessarily mean that's how it applies to BoJack's world.
I doubt it really matters if he knew it was vodka or not. Addicts have to struggle with temptation of a daily basis and plenty don't have always have the capacity to say no or stop. Sure, he might have realised it's vodka by the first sniff/sip, but by then it may have been too late. It's like when you eat something and you know you shouldn't but you're like "oh just one more won't hurt".
@FallingStary Bojack’s world follows a real world logical mainframe despite all of its weirdness. Unless stated otherwise, things work like they would in the real world
Besides, vodka having a distinct taste IS canon. Little Bojack flinched the first time he tried it, and in the New Mexico episode it’s stated that it has a taste
@@the_viriathus5719 Was just about to say this.
The entire theme of season 6 is that you have control and need to take responsibility for your actions.
He ruined his own life when he decided to continue drinking of his own will. He knew his sobriety was precarious and he wants someone to blame instead of taking responsibility
your argument makes sense , but bojack didnt ruin dr champs life , he just subjected him to a short inconvinience , so that dr champ can move on to the long term better , imo , dr champs is a symbol of bojacks life if there was someone there for bojack to make him better , but now bojack is the strong person that guides others regardless of how they feel
I don't consider this to be "life ruining" either, but the point I'm making is that Bojack is not free of responsibility when it comes to the negative consequences that Dr. Champ will face.
@@ShadyDoorags Nobody is free of responsibility. And Dr. Champ should face the consequences of his actions.
I'm pretty sure Hollyhock is free of responsibility for ruining Dr. Champ's life. And I'm not saying Dr. Champ shouldn't face consequences. I'm arguing that Bojack made him do it.
@@ShadyDoorags we know nothing of dr champs life so anything is possible, and if hollyhock hadn't entered Bojack's life he might have never considered going to rehab. I know that you're not saying that dr champ shouldn't face consequences, but it feels a little contradicting if you're arguing that Bojack made him do it. so should bojack also face the neg. consequences? (Another question: bojack made him do what?) it feels weirdly like a victim-blaming argument ^.^'
@@ShadyDoorags how so? What Bojack did (exposing Champ to alcohol) was an accident that he immediately tried to fix. If Champ was *truly* recovered, he would’ve thrown the vodka out after his first sip. There was absolutely no sense of willpower, and the best path for him afterwards was for him to go into rehab for the sake of his family and himself. If he had continued to drink, his life would’ve ended up significantly worse. I think Bojack is responsible for ruining many lives, but Champ was not one of them. He wasn’t truly recovered, so it was also troubling that he was teaching other alcoholics how to become sober when he himself wasn’t able to become better.
It was intially an accident with the vodka anyway.
Then Champ *chose* to drink after
*However* , Bojack ratted Champ out and put him in Rehab
Can’t preach what you can’t do yourself. Dr Champ shouldn’t even be doing therapy if re-threading that path is so easy for him
@@the_viriathus5719 i kind of agree with you there--practice what you preach. But as humans (or horse ppl or whatever) we are not perfect and recovering from addiction and relapsing is rough on anyone
@Jong dae every day The thing with a therapist is that he should be 100% over whatever addiction is treating others for. An AA therapist shouldn’t fall for alcohol himself this easily
Dr Champ is allowed to have flaws like any other human (or horse). It’s just that he fails miserably at the ONE THING he’s meant to do right. An addict can’t cure others’ addictions
@@the_viriathus5719 AA is extremely bad about actually dealing with addiction. They don't even allow tracking of their own numbers.
@@the_viriathus5719 Keep in mind that he's not a therapist, he's a therapy horse, a small but legally significant distinction :D for real though, you're correct. furthermore, a good therapist would understand that personal issues must take precedence over work and helping others if they're THIS significant. (a full fucking relapse is significant) self-care first, being there for others later, else you burn out.
Did Dr Champs life actually even get ruined though? I mean if the truth comes out they see he had basically 2 days of drinking and then getting help. Dont think he would lose his job or his husband over that. If Doctor Champ continued to indulge in drinking then he would almost certainly lose his husband and job.
Also while I understand the whole headcannon thing, that whole part basically sounds like bs. Sure the show doesn't specifically tell you Dr Champ has an idea of what alcohol smells like, and tastes like compared to water, but it doesn't specifically aay the opposite either. If drinking alcohol would have such negative consequences, then Dr Champ should have done everything in his power to not do so. Whether or not Bojacks actions made it easier for Champ, he had a choice and he didnt care.
That's the thing though dr champ gave up one of staying sober after this. He let his addiction win. He also said that even the smallest amount of alcohol will make him relapse.
So two things:
headcannon, not an argument to make, if a show doesn’t explain something it is not on us to fill in the blank, if he had lost his taste they would’ve brought it up, but I can disprove that easily, why is he asking for a certain drink then if he can’t taste? Or how about in this same video you can see him eating bread with a spread on it to add flavor? Not to mention when he drinks it what does he do? Smile, knowing exactly what he did. You have nothing to support your argument in the show whereas the show disproves you multiple times, not to mention chugging a whole bottle is ridiculous even if “one sip will send me on the road to ruin.” that shows he needed help regardless, which Bojack did the right thing in this situation.
This is an excuse people use to avoid responsibility for their actions, it wasn’t me I accidentally drank some and I couldn’t control myself, which if he was a hardcore drinker that’d be one thing but he was sober for a long time, and he wasn’t black out drunk after the bottle, he drove to a bar and refused to stop or even feel bad about it. That’s the issue I’m having with you using a what if when it was never discussed over any point in the show, him being able to taste it is not just “headcannon”, especially on a show this consistent outside of Todd, that’s common sense and is not us reaching for something.
Second, how is Bojack leaving him alone better instead of checking him in to a rehab?If Bojack had hit it I would actually be saying he ruined his life more then what he actually did. Let’s look at what would happen if Bojack didn’t help Champ. After showing us how out of control he is after having just one drink he is going to have to fight his addiction all over again, so it would be better to do that while hiding it from everyone how? He never fully faced it either as most people would again either feel bad, or at least try to stop instead of driving to a bar, maybe if he had just the bottle then I could agree with you but this guy clearly has an issue, he claims that his family would never forgive him but not once, not even once, did his family come up in his head while he went drinking at the bar and even had someone telling him to stop. That’s an issue that needs to be worked on and it is very dangerous to have a man who is trying to help others stop addiction when he can’t do it himself. So more then likely without the “consequences” he would’ve lied, stayed at his job and would probably start drinking on the side again since he has no self control whatsoever based on what we saw, causing even more issues down the line seeing as how this guy did something to his daughter he is not safe to be around while intoxicated. Let’s look at what’s going to actually happen, he tells his work and family that someone brought alcohol and he accidentally drank it forcing him into a moment of weakness, both the rehab and the family should be extremely sympathetic to that especially since he checked in to a rehab the moment it happened. So what really would’ve happened? Absolutely nothing, he sounded so stupid and even when I heard it I felt he was overreacting, even with his family situation fucking good riddance if this guy had one moment of weakness after years and hurt no one.
Honestly, it was an unfortunate situation but I feel this actually helped champ more then ruined him, your life is not ruined by going to rehab, that’s actually really messed up to say of him as it can happen to anyone and it’s not something to be ashamed of, that’s what stops people from getting help in the first place is that stigma, same with stupid doctors who mark a patient who is facing withdrawals as a druggie restricting them from ever getting medication to help them even when it’s warranted. He could easily explain the situation and anyone would be sympathetic to him if he was just honest, he drank without knowing and lost control one day, it turns out he never beat his addiction since he still can’t control himself being around it. Going to rehab is not a consequence, it’s a chance to do better with help, sure rehab is total bullshit in my eyes and even his character is a great way for the show to take a shot at rehab subtly, but it should not be seen as a bad thing to try and be better. Why would his family be mad at him for trying to be stronger in this situation? If he had just done what he wanted and hid it, that would’ve really ruined his life, Bojack did do the right thing, this guy couldn’t even remember checking in to the clinic, he was completely out of control and could’ve hurt someone or showed up to his family’s house and that would’ve been the real way he could’ve ruined his life, not this.
Also to end this whole thing, no one can ruin anyone’s life (unless they are killed obviously) but themselves because it goes on and you can always improve. Look at how the hair stylist girl was fine after Bojack “ruined her life”.
Also in the heat of the moment Champ was mad because he got caught not because he failed to beat his addiction. He was given an ultimatum about drinking again, that’s being forced to stop, not wanting to, which is why he still had issues after all these years, he never wanted to stop, he had to for his family’s sake and Bojack did the best thing possible at the time which was checking him in over just letting him get away with it and leaving champ to battle his addiction in secrecy. That just seems way worse to me.
Ruined his life or not, I guess it was necessary for BoJack to move on. The reason why is because it was the final piece of the puzzle for BoJack’s realization that he needs to move on.
I would argue that Dr. champs life actually WAS “ruined” the moment he went to the bar. That is when everyone(including possible Dr. champ) realized that this wasn’t a one off thing where he just gets back on the horse (pun intended). And like you said, when he goes to the bar to continue drinking that has NOTHING to do with bojack. I say that this is where his life is “ruined” and that Bojack May have actually saved him from some more rash consequences because had Bojack not taken him to rehab he may have gone back to pastiches and ruined some if not all of his clients progress(people like Jameson who are not at all stable in their recovery) , lose his job, and be even more depressed and drink even more. I think Bojack did the right thing telling people and admitting him into rehab because he prevented something that would fuck over a lot of people.
I'd say sub text Clues heavily imply he did know he was drinking vodka
It sounds his anxiety to maintain a perfect self image ensured any slip up would send him into a downward spiral.
Part of the 12 steps is continuing to reflect and take inventory on the selfish nature of your addiction and recognizing when those old selfish thought patterns start creeping up. You also have to be vulnerable and own up to the wrongs you committed. It seems Dr. Champ had forgotten to practice those steps.
You're line at 6:10 kinda said it all
Plus I feel you're missing the old line: "You can lead a horse a water, but you can't make it drink....or get drunk...or sober."
No one chugs down a whole ass water bottle like that for no reason. Homeboy knew what he was drinking
I really love Doctor Champ’s design
I just find him really endearing
According to Lisa Hannawalt on Twitter, he's modeled on a real type of horse! She even had a picture of herself riding one - it was adorable.
I like that expression he makes with his head tilted down and the way he has a casual smile and how his eyebrows are also low
@@katietaylor8314 yea that’s her fjord horse Juniper!
is gonna get worse, doctor champ is gonna sell bojack's secrets now
Yup. He's not an actual therapist, so there's technically no doctor/patient confidentiality.
I've seen this theory around, and I believe it. I also believe the theory that Dr. Champ is Maddy's father.
@@ShadyDoorags what you think is gonna happen in the second to last episode, im thinking bojack is in coma from cheating death and visits afterlife with his relatives, herb and sarah lynn
Dude...
eric tatemura Congrats you predicted it!
always thought dr champ was a representation of how easy it can be to relapse once you’re sober. You could be running a camp of sobriety, living a life you’re proud of but one slip up and your back where you started. It’s a metaphor that Bojack will only ever be sober so long as he’s not drinking alcohol, but he will always be an alcoholic.
This is a good video but it doesn't change my mind for several reasons. While it's technically head cannon that Dr. Champ could taste vodka it's just as headcannon that he couldn't. He never said or really implied that he didn't know it was vodka. I think the writers actually may have wanted to make a point (a point they kind of made with the fainting goat at the party) which is that recovery ins't living in fear of alcohol. It's being able to live content in your own sobriety. So I would argue that Dr. Champ's life wasn't okay in the first place if one sip of vodka would ruin it. Also when BoJack checked Dr Champ into rehab, he was doing this because of advice he received that Dr. Champ gave. I think BoJack believed that long term this was what Dr. Champ would've wanted
Coudln't agree more. Classic case of the student becomes the master, as far as I see it...
It it not headcannon, he drinks a specific drink multiple times at the bar, eats something with a spread on it in this video, he has taste, he smiles after downing the bottle, he clearly knows what it is.
Bojack drinks the vodka and immediately spits it out and makes a disgusted taste sound.
There is nothing, absolutely nothing that supports the theory of having no taste, it was a silly thing to bring up in the video.
@@joro8693 He said he didn't actually believe champ couldn't taste. He was just making a point about how head canons work.
David Braasch Okay that’s fine, however I feel him making the argument that he knew what it was is a headcannon I still disagree based on what I said earlier, it’s not headcannon when there is proof in the show, maybe Shady didn’t realize it was there when he said it though. Headcannon would be more like theorizing what happened to make him go to the bar
It was definitely incredible foolish and dangerous to keep a bottle of hard alcohol in a rehab facility. Even if nobody drinks it, it still can trigger struggling addicts even with the smell or knowing it's there. That was absolutely irresponsible of Bojack. Bojack was a definitely at fault for that. Also telling his place of work that he checked Dr. into rehab was not okay at all. But I think it's not fair for Bojack to be blamed, when Dr.s addiction has had a whole life of choices and circumstances that lead up to this. You know?
How is it horrible to explain a situation to a work that you caused, I believe Champ is overreacting hardcore like dude just work on yourself, if any job is going to understand it it’s a rehab clinic, same with his family, he “unknowingly” (total bullshit but he could use it cause he clearly knew) drank it and had a weak moment, it’s not like he went out of his way on his own to get drunk.
When your best friend is an alcoholic and he would have such a bad fallback, would you turn him in?
I would argue, by taking him to rehab Bojack is taking responsibility for other people. Not doing something is as bad as not giving first aid just because you know he can't afford the doctor.
Shady, your Bojack videos are by far my favorite, and I'm almost always on board with everything you say, but I semi disagree with you on this one.
Not only did Bojack not ruin Dr. Champ's life, I'd argue there's a strong possibility he saved his life, or at least minimized the damage done
I'm surprised no one brought up the rule of passives
"A setting should abide by the rules of reality consistently unless stated otherwise in the setting"
I should have brought this up. I didn't because I simply didn't think of it and that is a fail on my part.
@@ShadyDoorags No worries your point still stands regardless of the mine just thought I'd bring it up
I pressed this video so fast.. and did you just reference One Piece?
Considering what was just said.. Diane could be considered guilty of this as well right? Despite her intentions to help, she didn't really do Bojack many favors. From the book she wrote in season one to the boat scene she added in the series he was in last season.. not only did she do it out of spite but she disguised it as if she was "helping" him when in reality she was pushing him towards the edge
I had to go back for that bit I thought I miss heard him for a second.
The head cannon must mean the thousand sunny
@@carmel9583 The gomu gomu no cannon is an attack in one piece.
David Braasch I forgot
Abigail Slaughter I know 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😢😭😭😭😭😭😭
My Headcanon is his daughter was Maddie from New Mexico. “I promised i would never drink again after what happened to our daughter.” Maddie got alcohol poisoning from Bojack. And you only met him in this season so you can’t say he wasn’t in New Mexico before.
RadioOppy1 Omg wait that actually makes a lot of sense
Season 6 part 2 about to hit me harder than blue balls during No Nut November
This is December
@@TwitchyTopHat1 thats the joke, bub
@@olexrash4574 Me funny. Me say nut.
Doctor Champ deliberately taking what BoJack confessed to him in therapy and then throwing it in his face because he knew how hard it would strike home was just about the most horrible, cruel thing you could possibly do - and that's not even getting into what a huge violation of ethics and doctor/patient confidentiality it is. I suspect BoJack knew that and also saw that the guy was doing exactly what he himself has such a long history of doing, which is blaming everybody else for his own bad decisions. So it was horrible, but also an important teachable moment. When BoJack later on says "how stupid that was" you know he's really learned from it.
We know that the head cannon is that vodka tastes like vodka becauase we see bojack drink it and spits it out
I thought that this video was going to be about Dr Champ's life maybe not actualy being ruinned. I mean his (Dr Champ) arguments are that he promissed his husband he would never drink again, that the center he was working for wouldn't acept him again and the people getting reabilitation there would never trust him again. But we never actualy see those consequences happening, for all we know he could have been gravely exagerating and none of that could have happened. His husband that apparently forgave him for what ever happened to his daughter could forgive him for a mishap that had no consecuences, I mean if the whole marrige was hanging on that promisse there might have been other more serious problems to handle than alchool. The center might rehire him after he is recovered, he could become an even more sucessefull story if he trully recovers. And finally do you realy think the center would divulge information about the therapist's personal problems to the patients, expecialy if the brought them bad rep?
Dr. Champ kind of need help and his paitence could benefit from a diferent therapist, one that isn't fake or inlist fear of alchool by telling his paitiants that one sip of alchool could derrail the whole effort.
Edit: Also I just remembered, are we supposed to belive that this is realy the first time Dr Champ dealt with contraband, realy?
Also Bojack could defently taste that it was vodka.
Bojack took a sip but he threw it out. Doctor champ took a sip and kept on drinking
also on S6E1, little bojack in the sailor outfit drinks the vodka and winces, implying that there is a harsh taste in vodka
Bojack already knew it was Vodka. What knowledge do we have that Dr. Champ also knew?
@@ShadyDoorags I'm pretty sure in S6E1 he asked what was in this orange juice. So that kinda shows they taste different. I just use Dr. Champ thought the water tasted different yet familiar but was thirsty so chugged it.
Shady Doorags the pace in which he drank it
Weeell having drunk both accidentally from abandoned glass I can say for sure you know soon as it is in your mouth... Of course he doesn't have tastebuds, but you know he must not have noise either
@Shady Doorags They taste and smell completely different dude
Yeah. Nope. Sorry. You're wrong on this one. I'd explain but there's already MANY comments explaining that your logic onyl checks out if Champ magically didn't have working nostrils, or taste buds, or a fully functioning brain and even then, half your logic STILL doesn't check out. Sorry but nope.
Honestly I greatly disagree with you mostly because of the context of the situation : bojack didn’t originally bring that bottle of vodka with him, remember? It was given to him by a fellow rehab patient, which has been in and out of rehab a ton of times and had been smuggling alcohol for a long time; because of this, your whole “head cannon vs suspension of disbelief” argument crumbles to bits cause within the context of both the show taking place in a wacky overly dramatized world where any random occurrence can happen and the fact that all it took was for bojack to misplace a bottle of vodka for this to happen, its kinda obvious that this was bound to happen sooner or later, as testing the moral values and personal struggles of the characters within from time to time seems to be a constant on the shows universe.
Also saying that doctor champs life was ruined by bojack it’s quite the stretch, considering that doctor champ was the one who went to a bar to get plastered right after lamenting the fact that he got drunk the previous day, most of his misery was his own doing and he sees bojack as a clear scapegoat to avoid facing his reality instead of moving forward.
champ literally said "NO DOY" when bojack admitted he drank vodka.
"and in the hands of dr. Champ who chugs it down" you can literally stop right there. I dont know if you've ever gotten diet coke when you ordered coke or sweet tea when you ordered non sweet, but its pretty damn jarring. Now imagine getting a mouth full of vodka expecting water, even if you love alcohol (like I do) I would have spit that shit out immediately. Even if he didnt reflexively spit it out, he had it in his mouth long enough to decide that luke warm vodka was worth chugging. Anyone addicted to anything has to realize it stops with them first, judging how incredibly easily he fell off the wagon its pretty easy to tell it was on him.
I have chugged down a mouthful the wrong drink with a drastically different taste and not realized until after I swallowed that it was different. That being said, I don't think anyone in real life would make this mistake with vodka. I chose to suspend my disbelief and believe that, in that moment, Dr. Champ for whatever reason didn't taste the difference.
@@ShadyDoorags There is a difference in suspending disbelief and just sounding silly.
I think there needs to be a clear distinction between RESPONSIBLE and BLAME. Is Bojack responsible? Yes. Should he be blamed? No.
I think you’re right, and what’s more important is what this moment means for BoJack’s character development.
You explained this really well in your Season 6 review.
Champ chugged the vodka, got drunk. Bojack kept him safe and no one knew. That's a warning
Champ just says "screw it I'ma drink more." So bojack puts him in rehab to make him stop sense bojack can't do anything
If a former alcoholic doesn't immediately spit out vodka unflavored regular vodka, then he wanted to indulge in his habit, you don't just lose the ability to taste vodka because you've not drank it in a long time, even the finest vodka still tastes like vodka.
I don’t think that should be considered head canon. It’s just using context. I don’t believe there’s a single person on the planet, especially an ex-alocoholic, that could mistake vodka for water. When he drinks the entire bottle of vodka, I believe it’s implied that he knew because there’s no feasible way he couldn’t.
This isnt just an unpopular opinion, this is a hypocritical argument with no merit.
The sad part is Dr Champ would eventually ruin his own life with continuing to drink after the first incident. The consequences would have caught up to him, but he would have to one else to blame.
This actually reminds me of a legal discussion (at least in German law, I don't know if it's the same in America): When figuring out if someone is culpable of a crime, there are several layers of responsibility, starting with the most basic - causality: If Bojack hadn't tossed out the bottle, none of this would have happened, so he's causal for ruining Champ's live. By the same standard however, Jameson H. is causal, since none of this would have happened hadn't she tried to sneak in the vodka. And so is Bojack's mom for giving birth to him. So this doesn't really help us in determining who's responsible. That's why there's the next layer - objective accountability: This one is less cleary defined, but one aspect of it is asking, wheather the outcome of events was foreseeable. I would argue that when throwing an unlabeled bottle out of the window, the chances of someone just drinking it are practically zero. The only reason, this happened, is because it perfectly landed in a pile of similar looking bottles meant for consumption. Suspension of disbelief can make me accept that it happened, but there's no way Bojack should have anticipated this outcome. So in my opinion, throwing out the bottle doesn't make him responsible for ruining Champs live.
So how about checking him into rehab? Again, causality is there. Also this time, Bojack could (and did) forsee the outcome of his action. However, another aspect of objective accountability is to ask wheather an alternative action could have prevented this outcome. And as you said, if Bojack would have just left, things would probably have ended even worse for Champ. He also tried and failed to get him to stop drinking on his own. So again, at least when applying legal standards, Bojack is not responsible for ruining his life.
Bojack ruined Dr Champ's life in about as much as someone making sure a teenager who snuck out to go party got a taxi home safely. Sure the teenager had got found out because they were sent home, but it's their fault for sneaking out in the first place, so whoever happens to be nearby to make sure they arrive home safe shouldn't be blamed for not knowing the teenager's parents reaction to being found sneaking out. If that person did nothing the teenager might have been in a much more dangerous situation, to which the person who knew they snuck out but decided it wasn't their problem and didn't call a taxi home might be more at fault for not even trying to help.
As far as Bojack knew Dr Champ needed help and might have been in a much worse situation if he did not help. Plus thematically, I think Dr Champ's actions and his response to the help that made him look bad was to mirror how Bojack has treated others in the past even if they have tried to help him. Bojack would have blamed the other person for not considering how their help might make him look bad rather than admit he was the one at fault, and knowing him he would have tried to make it personal so they can feel hurt just because he is hurt/ashamed/embarassed. Dr Champ helped get rid of old Bojack while also emulating how pre-rehab Bojack might have responded in a similar situation.
You are forgetting the scene were sharona spikes bojack s oj with vodka on the set horsin around, and bojack immediately reacts, asking what she put in it. This implies it’s has a taste
In *most* cases people aren't purely the victim and have to acknowledge the part they played in their own misfortune no matter how small it was so then they can face and start to address the problem however, this isn't even one of those cases where the victim's part can seem obscure at first glance. I whole-heartedly disagree with you here. Yes, Bojack deserves blame for the bottle being at the facility but Dr.Champ is to blame for choosing to drink that alcohol. Bojack also didn't ruin his life because he helped him when he didn't want it Dr. Champ drinking as an alcoholic is him already ruining his own life whether people know of it or not.
Dr. Champ looks a little like Bojack's grandpa.
What Bojack did was an accident for throwing the bottle, but it was also his fault for holding onto his bad memories. He tried to help Doctor Champ as well by chasing him to the bar and keeping in his room sober and checking him into treatment, like ripping off a bandaid for Doctor Champs life.
Doctor Champ however chugged the whole bottle without spitting, but he did suffer from a addiction and it should be treated as such. All his hurtful actions happened while intoxicated and he did not give to anyone else or abuse anyone. It seemed to be a heat of the moment knowing his life was now in shambles again for what he said to BoJack.
Totally support this, it can really go either way. There are good arguments for both sides. You can even compare this to Sarah Lynn getting drunk on the set of Horsin’ Around and how it was BoJack’s fault but he placed the blame on Sharona. You would think that a child who has never tasted alcohol (we don’t know this for sure), would know immediately that something’s not right and that what she was drinking wasn’t water, and she would look for a different bottle, or ask what was in it. But she didn’t....just like Dr. Champ didn’t give two thoughts and just chugged down the vodka. We can simply assume, for the story’s sake, that a child just drank a bottle of vodka without second guessing herself at all. Same applies here 🤷🏻♀️
Ummm this suspension of disbelief with the vodka seems like a long reach. The show tends to use suspension of disbelief with things that are very much exaggerated for comedic reasons and/or to make a point, and this really ain’t it. Besides, nobody knows Dr Champs life really is ruined so 🤔 this isn’t much of a sound argument.
That's the thing with alcoholics and former alcoholics, once you have your first sip, there's no turning back.
It’s the consequences of your actions that ruins lives, not the actions themselves - this video
I think the Doctor Champ situation perfectly illustrates the difference between Bojack and Dr Champ's view of alcoholism. Bojack believes he should be held responsible for his own addiction. In one therapy scene, Bojack says that no one forced him at gunpoint to drink alcohol or do drugs, it was his choice.
In contrast, Dr Champ believes that addiction takes away people's willpower, making them unable to refuse drugs and alcohol. According to Dr Champ, the only way to stop an addict from drinking is to remove them from all situations where alcohol is available. In a way, Dr Champ's downfall was a self fulfilling prophecy. He believed that he'd be powerless to resist alcohol once he tasted it again. Because that's what he believed, that's what happened.
I think the show criticizes both Bojack and Dr Champ's approach to alcoholism. Addicts can't just "decide" to stop drinking one day - getting sober means getting therapy, confronting your demons, and, yes, avoiding alcohol for a while by going to rehab. That said, it's unrealistic and unsustainable to avoid any and all situations where you might be tempted to drink. At some point, all recovering alcoholics must learn how to be around alcohol without self destructing.
Admittedly, if you are very thirsty, I can imagine you just chugging it down.... and noticing a bit too late what it is.
Now that we have season 6 part 2, I can 100% say that Dr Champ ruined his own life. BoJack did give him the contraband vodka, but even when BoJack took him to rehab, it was revealed that he still CONTINUED TO DRINK! BoJack TRIED TO HELP, but it didn’t work.
3:06 He also revealed everything that Bojack told him in confidence to Paige Sinclair and Biscuits Braxby. These are things Bojack told him when he was under the impression that Doctor Champ was a licensed therapist. He isn't. Doctor Champ is a therapy horse and he didn't make the distinction to Bojack after he had been in rehab for a significant amount of time. This is why Doctor Champ is legally allowed to share Bojack's secrets. I know this was played as a joke in the show and a vector for Paige and Biscuits to get more shit on Bojack, but this really pissed me off. I've had some shitty therapists in the past so I have a lot of trust issues about this sort of thing. Doctor Champ should have disclosed the distinction between his profession and actual therapy from the moment the two met.
Honestly, we can blame Bojack for soooo many things after the season finale that I think we can give him a pass about Dr Champ. He dig his own grave in that one.
Whenever I forget the name for the "suspension of disbelief", I always come back to this video. Thanks for being the No. 1 reliable source for me to remind myself of that literary term!
Two things: if Bojack had left Dr. Champ in the bar and gone home, deciding not to help him and something happened to Doctor Champ, wouldn’t Bojack be responsible? If he crashed his car on the way home, wouldn’t part of the blame lie with Bojack in that situation? Two: is Doctor Champs life ruined? I mean yes, he believes his life is ruined but that doesn’t mean it is. Sure being there compromises relationships but on the path he was on, those relationships were bound to be compromised due to his new addiction. I don’t think we have enough information to say Bojack ruined Champs life because we don’t know how it ends. Because there could realistically be a reality where his husband takes him back and forgives him, and his patients at pastiches admire him even more and empathize with him. Or a reality where none of those things happen but he is still happy.
Wather bottles have an anti-tamering ring that breaks when the bottle is opened. Dr. Champ must have seen the bottle has been tampered with and smelled the bottle was filled with vodka. It is probably not the first time one of their guests has vodka smuggled in.
Dr. Champ has a huge need for being admired, loved and seen as "the good guy" or "the hero" that he can't give himself the chance to try again. Also...he was under stress due to the fact his husband conditioned the relationship to him not drinking again. He felt guilt and shame and couldn't face it in a healthy way. His last resort to feel like "the good guy" was to blame everything on Bojack and use the info he got to ruin him, because in Dr. Champ's mind Bojack is an evil character and he ruined him on purpose.
No, he's a therapy horse, not a horse therapist: so...he had it coming
Dr. Champ's Drinking of the bottle of Vodka makes perfect sense. He did explain it: a single drop would send him down a ruinous path.
The second the first drop of Vodka touched his tong, it was too late. It was the taste of that first drop that threw him off the wagon, not getting drunk from chugging the whole bottle down.
Your unpopular opinion/suspension of disbelief is also wrong, as the show already kills your headcanon with its own actual canon (remember that the SHOW depicts vodka as having its own taste AND makes no mention of Champ lacking the ability to taste or anything similar).
It's also only because of Bojack that Champ's wasn't discovered sooner.
Objectively speaking, Bojack didn't ruin Champ's life. Champ ruined his own life the moment he went back to the bar and drank of his own volition. Something of a callback to Sarah Lynn's drug 'n' alcohol issues before she passed.
Could you tell me where the show mentions Vodka having it's own taste? That would be really helpful to the conversation.
In new mexico the one who got pissed mentions it's taste doesn't she
@@ShadyDoorags If the show refers to vodka as vodka then they're inviting us to use our knowledge of vodka and treat it as the real life equivalent. If the show wants us to treat it as vodka but in this universe it tastes like water they need to make it abundantly clear which according to fan reactions is not the case here
@@ShadyDoorags
Besides the Mexico moment and the "logic" argument previously mentioned here, we also have Bojack's reaction just before he throws the bottle out the window, which is that of recognizing and rejecting the taste of the vodka.
That's just off the top of my head though; plenty of the scenes in the series where they show alcohol in general having a taste (given how much alcohol is in the show at times); vodka is no exception to this.
I always considered him immediately regretting his decision. I didn't think it had anything to do with taste. (Not that this isn't a possibility).
Your avatar is so expressive in this. Great work as always!
This video did get me thinking more; I had answered Doctor Champ's fault in the poll, but really, the point of this arc holds more meaning if we acknowledge the level of fault Bojack has. He did the right thing for the right reason and it had a negative outcome; And rather than try to go back to the ways he was right, Bojack accepts it. He's sober, he remembers everything now, and justifying his actions isn't worth it. All he can do is move on, because he took the objectively "right" path, and if that still turns out badly for him, oh well, that's his life and he needs to live it even if this keeps happening.
This also follows the theme of bojack's old behavior. No one holds him responsible, not even the viewers.
If Dr.Champ had known it was vodka wouldn't he have had any sort of reaction? It could be an animation oversight, but I feel like they would've made it visually apparent if he realized it in the scene, rather than absolutely no reaction - even if it was a breif wide eyed shot or pause before continuing to down it.
Great analysis man, first video I've seen of yours, I subscribed immediately, can't wait to go back and watch previous videos
yes a bojack horseman video, I see your a man of culture.
Yes, Bojack is at fault for accidentally giving him the vodka but it was Doctor Champs decision to continue drinking it. It was Doctor Champs decision for allowing his life to go downhill by continuing to indulge in it. They are both at fault. Bojack started it but Doctor Champ allowed it to continue.
Jesus Christ, “telling people that doctor champ drank is what ruined his life”
That’s such a bad take, relapsing was what ruined his life.
Are you saying that no one should ever help a drug addict because helping them will make people find out and ruin their life?
He had to smell the vodka is strong scent
It's not a headcannon that he knew from the first step, in the same episode I'm pretty sure we see Bojack go to take a sip of it, and instantly spit it out as a reaction to the taste from not drinking for so long. I don't think saying he had to have known is something that's just a theory based on this information blatantly provided for us.
Bojack did spit it out, yes, but I thought he did so because he immediately regretted his actions. He knew prior that it was vodka.
Shady Doorags the moment you taste vodka you’re gonna know it certainly isn’t water. Even if Bojack had more psychological reasons for his reaction it doesn’t change that fact at all. If Doctor Champ had been sober for as long as he claimed, the moment he tasted the Vodka he would have known because that taste would probably be even stronger after being away from it for so long. I genuinely felt like you argument in this video was weak because it focussed on the idea that people who think Bojack didn’t ruin Doctor Champ’s life are of that opinion solely because of head cannon but you then basically use head cannon to justify your views and attempt to pas it off as a logical conclusion
I love your talk on head cannon. You don't shoot it down, or say it's bad, you basically just say 'just don't take it as fact' at least the way I heard it, & I hope I got what you were going for, because I love that opinion.
sorry, but it's difficult to accept a reality where someone doesn't recognize vodka after the first sip! the first sip is always the strongest...
Even if he couldn't taste or smell it, that shit burns when swallowed. Fine, Dr Champ didn't ask for help, but Bojack did what any decent person would do faced with someone in that situation.
I think Dr. Champ is likeable and what he said to bojack wasnt out of revenge. He was furious with him for ruining his life. It wasnt just petty revenge. And yes what he said was wrong but this is how HE views bojack based off of the things that he tells him
The reason I don't blame Bojack is that he did the responsible thing - throwing the alcohol away. He *erred* in throwing it out the window and not making sure it went into a garbage can. At the same time, what were the odds it would land in a pallet of water bottles being brought in at that moment? I don't blame Champ for mistaking it for water when it was brought in, but I would have an exceptionally hard time believing his sense of smell is so dead that he didn't get a whiff of alcohol. THAT being said, I still don't blame him for falling prey to his old addiction all over again.
In short, I don't blame either of them. Both are victims of circumstances in this case.
It's not like he was gonna get the help himself
I personally disagree because even though champ didn’t want the help, in AA meetings some say it takes a Village. Meaning it takes more then one person. And from a personal story. Someone I knew didn’t want the help. They said they didn’t need it but their friends said no and took them to rehab anyway and now their on their way to recovery. My point is, some people need help even when they don’t want it.
At the end lf the day the responsibility to not drink the 2nd time falls on champ. He chose not to seek help if necessary after the first time he chose to go and drink thw second time. All consequences stem directly to his choice after the first rime getting drunk. Thus it is his responsibility and his fault.
Doesn't vodka also have a distinct smell?
Idk as someone who grew up with alcoholics, there's so little sympathy for the accusatory way of "you pushed me to do this" goddamit champ go back to rehab and stay there for a hot sec
As an alcoholic myself, my reaction to any liquor is the same as bojack. Its harsh. Just as harsh as it was when I took my first drink. Doctor Champ isn't a realistic portrayal of alcoholics. Maybe if alcoholics abused it for the taste then sure. But tasting or even smelling alcohol doesn't tempt me one bit. The temptation occurs when im back in a slump. We abuse it for the feeling it gives us. If I got drunk by accident I would definitely spiral backwards but just tasting it? A single drop? Never. And I can honestly speak for most people because it IS the truth. I've never known an alcoholic who can't be near or taste alcohol again because its not the taste that is abusive. Hell I drink a glass of wine with my fiance every now and then when we go out. Alcoholics can absolutely continue drinking as long as they have had some form of recovery and can control it now. If an urge starts then they need to stop so thats why its easier to just avoid it, but I have known many alcoholics including myself who still do drink. So the fault is absolutely on Doctor Champ. If he were truly sober, which I kind from that scene, his reaction would have been that of Bojacks. I can confirm that myself. You can't drink like you use to. So he absolutely knew it was vodka and he clearly decided to give into his urge he was having. Bojack has no fault in this at all. This is coming from an alcoholics prospective. If any ammount of alcohol would make us spiral back then we would die. Literally all fruit drinks in world wide have an alcohol content, all fruits have a content, all breads have a content. Alcohol is a natural chemical substance and is found almost everywhere. Not to mention the fact that out bodies naturally produce around an OUNCE of pure ethanol a day. No matter your age, race, sex, or religion, we produce alcohol. So to say any alcohol we consume or break down would trigger us is honestly ridiculous. Its simply not true. Reporting Champ was his duty. He would have ruined the lives if the addicts in his care. He ruined his own life by drinking. Its like saying a cop ruins a killers life by throwing them in jail.
Edit: the creators do use reality during this scene. Bojack himself as I said shows this as he spits it out. Its not pleasant to feel or taste when you've been without so long. To use reality through the entire show and the entire scene but throw it out for one specific character is also ridiculous.
I half agree. I don’t think he lost his sense of taste, but the minute that vodka touched his mouth, it probably sent him spiraling and made him drink the whole bottle. He did not choose that water bottle, so I think it’s both of their faults, but less Bojack’s