Man! Perfect timing Speed Academy. I just bought a 1970 Datsun 510 coupe a month ago and been doing research on suspension components. Can't wait to see more vids on this 510.
I can imagine that background music playing every time Daves doing his magic, and No didn't ment it like that you perv... Hardcore fan! Always checking the channel for new videos. Keep it up!
Nice to see you playing with a real car ;-) didn't understand a thing, will have to re watch it and take notes. Got my own 510 race car project. Except mine's a real Coupe!
On a Mcpherson strut car you have to sacrifice spring rate in the chase for more caster. Positive caster is a wonderful thing. Makes for a stable car at high speed, and adds dynamic camber while turning. So you can run less static camber, helping your straight line traction. But still get your desired amount of negative camber while turning the wheel.
Very educational! I think I may need to watch it about 20 more times before it sinks in though. ...what I really want to know more about, is that bus in the back!
Having built a race 240z (similar to the one in the background), I imagine that the 510 has a similar rear suspension type (Chapman strut) which complicated the motion calculations a bit. Not surprising to hear that the rear end handled unpredictably over bumps, since the Chapman geometry results in a significantly less than linear motion ratio.
Mark Dietzler I just barely passed night school so all I just heard was the gazoo real loud . I took my coils out cut 2 turns out and waaa laaaaa looks and rides great.
Totally missed opportunity to use Billy Squier's "The Stroke" during measurements...although I appreciate the ridiculousness of the kazoo accompaniment 😆
"I WANT A REFUND ON MY FREE VIDEO, THIS MUSIC ANNOYED ME IN THE MOST MINOR OF WAYS" Reading the hatred of that background music is hilarious, it's like you guys were performing a hate crime or something.
Will you guys be releasing a video on the way you measure/decide what the sprung and unsprung weights are? I have used these methods on a cars front suspension, matching it frequency-wise with the rear so I didn't really need to calculate the weights, but I want to know how you do it ;) Great content!
We'll be posting a story on our website soon with all the math that went into choosing spring rates. In part 2 of the video we show the install of the parts and a quick track test.
Haha, some folks love a good kazoo tune. Clearly you guys do not. Don't worry, it won't be a regular music choice with this or any other build. Dave just thought it was a funny way to lighten the math nerd mood.
Think it is obvious that car in the motion wont have the same height as the non moving. Especially for RWD setup : the car always sits on the back more, unloading the front as you push the gas pedal. What I'm trying to say that on a race track the car wont have the same geometry of suspension as if it would be not moving so when you choose the spring rate you have to add this corrections. Plus the driver whos weight affects the suspension too.
I've seen this car before, but had no idea it had an S13 front suspension. Is there more info on the swap somewhere? I assume it's on the510realm.com or other 510 specific site, but would like to know more.
I'm a big fan of math and all, but how are you defining optimal spring rate? It's not the same for a street daily driver, a road track car, a rally car, or an autocross car. So you know the motion ratio, but how are spring rates effected by ride hight, shock damping and rebound, caster, roll bar stiffness and ratio front to rear? Not to mention, this information has nothing to do with 510 suspension tuning as none of this relates to any other 510 on the road. In all reality, the optimal spring rate is not a simple matter of measuring the motion ratio. It's hours and hours of time behind the wheel.
I went through about year of suspension tuning on my old 2004 Subaru STI (don't have the car anymore). Miss that car... Anyhow, damping is just as important as spring rate. My initial setups were very over damped in the rear and car was horrible. The spring rate was fine but it's amazing just how bad a shock can make a car handle. It was quite a downer to spend almost $10k on a custom Koni double adjustable setup and have it handle so badly. It took a lot of testing and a lot of revalving before things finally started working correctly. The car did end up handling very well. My main take-away from all that is that unless you have a money tree and a lot of time and you're very serious in your choice of racing (or if you have no other choice like the 510 in this video), get something good off the shelf. Someone else went through all the pain and testing to make the setup right for you.
No question the dampers are just as important (if not more so) than the springs. The spring rates really just set the roll rates, while the dampers really help the tire and chassis control body motion and generate mechanical grip at the tires. Choosing the right spring rates for a given setup and a given track is important, but having a damper than can control those rates and body motion well is huge on a race car. In our experience there are some excellent off-the-shelf coilovers kits on the market and some terrible ones. You definitely need to do your homework here, as companies are sometimes rather conservative and dial in understeer with their spring rate choices to try protect themselves from liability.
As Dave mentioned below, it's a 280Z relieved of most creature comforts with a stoutly built L28...OS Giken diff, S12 gearbox, not really anything left stock...and much carbon fibre and plastic windows. I guess I should update my build thread...got a bit slack with that. retrorides.proboards.com/thread/86608
Nice work btw. What frequencies are you looking to pick? Also, I'm looking for custom springs... would your Eibach Canada contact be able to help me out?
Yes, Eibach Canada can get you springs in pretty much any rate. We'll post up a story to our website soon with all the math including suspension frequencies, but I think we ended up around 2hz front and a bit less rear. We think this should work well with a high grip track tire like JP runs on this car (Pirelli Trofeo R) with limited aero, but probably a bit low for slicks esp. if we add some serious downforce to the package.
On a coiler with an adjustable shock body, you simply remove the spring and adjust the hub up to the height it would sit at while loaded by the weight of the car.
Me and math don't get along very well at all, regardless I still learned something new though. I will say that the background music was very odd and distracting at times. I was laughing instead of listening to what you were saying.
THE MUSIC SUCKS AND IS VERY ANNOYING I CAN HARDLY HEAR JP TALK . I think this channel is awesome but who ever edited this episode should stop editing !
Or we could do things ourselves, learn some things along the way, and have some fun, and develop a custom setup that works really well on our car, for our custom control arms, for our tracks, our tire choice, and our driving style.
The only parts T3 makes for this particular setup are rear coilovers. They have nothing available that will work for a 510 using an s chassis hub. Take a gander at the article on the website. It outlines everything and the thinking behind it!
why the measurements in inches and not in millimeters? the metric system for such measurements much more suitable and more accurate! greetings from Germany
Man! Perfect timing Speed Academy. I just bought a 1970 Datsun 510 coupe a month ago and been doing research on suspension components. Can't wait to see more vids on this 510.
I can imagine that background music playing every time Daves doing his magic, and No didn't ment it like that you perv... Hardcore fan! Always checking the channel for new videos. Keep it up!
I really like these "scientific" videos :) keep 'em comming !
Thanks
I've watched this several times just to see if I can glean a bit more knowledge for my own project.
Nice to see you playing with a real car ;-) didn't understand a thing, will have to re watch it and take notes. Got my own 510 race car project. Except mine's a real Coupe!
On a Mcpherson strut car you have to sacrifice spring rate in the chase for more caster. Positive caster is a wonderful thing. Makes for a stable car at high speed, and adds dynamic camber while turning. So you can run less static camber, helping your straight line traction. But still get your desired amount of negative camber while turning the wheel.
This was probably one of the best videos you guys uploaded!
It's videos like this is why im a patronage supporter of your channel! Keep it up!
Thanks David, glad you enjoyed it!
Very educational! I think I may need to watch it about 20 more times before it sinks in though.
...what I really want to know more about, is that bus in the back!
Oh the bus! Hahaha, it's now four linked and bagged on 24" transports. It's a fun camper/cruiser for one of my shop mates
+Jp Ellis Nice!
I literally lol'd when I heard the Kazoos. Fantastic work, as usual! ;)
Having built a race 240z (similar to the one in the background), I imagine that the 510 has a similar rear suspension type (Chapman strut) which complicated the motion calculations a bit. Not surprising to hear that the rear end handled unpredictably over bumps, since the Chapman geometry results in a significantly less than linear motion ratio.
The best video you guys have posted in a while, hilarious and informative. but then I'm into vintage race car suspension setup. weirdo i guess....
So, here we have a real world example of trigonometry use in the wild.
Mark Dietzler I just barely passed night school so all I just heard was the gazoo real loud . I took my coils out cut 2 turns out and waaa laaaaa looks and rides great.
love the videos, keep em coming. Minus the kazoo of course
That was intense
love the music
great work as always guys.
Awesome stuff
That music in the background is very disturbing, but i like that! ;D
Totally missed opportunity to use Billy Squier's "The Stroke" during measurements...although I appreciate the ridiculousness of the kazoo accompaniment 😆
"I WANT A REFUND ON MY FREE VIDEO, THIS MUSIC ANNOYED ME IN THE MOST MINOR OF WAYS" Reading the hatred of that background music is hilarious, it's like you guys were performing a hate crime or something.
Haha, thanks for the laugh. Yes, people on the internet are very critical!
I lol'd at the wookie sound effect.
225lb is pretty good for more of a track/road race oriented 510
Bahaha, those Kazoos made my day.
Great video!
Will you guys be releasing a video on the way you measure/decide what the sprung and unsprung weights are? I have used these methods on a cars front suspension, matching it frequency-wise with the rear so I didn't really need to calculate the weights, but I want to know how you do it ;) Great content!
We'll be posting a story on our website soon with all the math that went into choosing spring rates. In part 2 of the video we show the install of the parts and a quick track test.
You guys have to make a video explaining that bus sitting nI front of the 510 .. Looks interesting lmao
its linked and sitting on 24" transports now. check out @worksgarage on instagram
Subscribed for a great car and information.
Thanks!!
Ahhh... Good to see you guys keeping the sexual innuendos going strong!
How to make me jealous in 1 step.
Step 1: have a 510
Great video, curious what the "Wookie" does for a career?
Awesome cars in the shop.
He runs a powdercoating business!
to be honest, I wonder what song you're playing. I would play it really loud at car meets. 😛
Haha, there's a credit for the song in the description. Enjoy all the new friends you'll make at car meets with this kazoo masterpiece! :D
Am i the only one hearing wierd shit through a good portion of the vid?
No, it's really rather disturbing if it were put in on purpose, so it must be what they like listening to while working haha
yeah it s wierd
I'd even prefer no music than that odd kazoo thing?
Haha, some folks love a good kazoo tune. Clearly you guys do not. Don't worry, it won't be a regular music choice with this or any other build. Dave just thought it was a funny way to lighten the math nerd mood.
wookies sound better with a kazoo background.
Think it is obvious that car in the motion wont have the same height as the non moving. Especially for RWD setup : the car always sits on the back more, unloading the front as you push the gas pedal. What I'm trying to say that on a race track the car wont have the same geometry of suspension as if it would be not moving so when you choose the spring rate you have to add this corrections. Plus the driver whos weight affects the suspension too.
No you don't. You select your spring rates for a static position. What you've said is very wrong, you should read about the scope of this effort.
I've seen this car before, but had no idea it had an S13 front suspension. Is there more info on the swap somewhere? I assume it's on the510realm.com or other 510 specific site, but would like to know more.
I'm a big fan of math and all, but how are you defining optimal spring rate? It's not the same for a street daily driver, a road track car, a rally car, or an autocross car. So you know the motion ratio, but how are spring rates effected by ride hight, shock damping and rebound, caster, roll bar stiffness and ratio front to rear? Not to mention, this information has nothing to do with 510 suspension tuning as none of this relates to any other 510 on the road. In all reality, the optimal spring rate is not a simple matter of measuring the motion ratio. It's hours and hours of time behind the wheel.
I went through about year of suspension tuning on my old 2004 Subaru STI (don't have the car anymore). Miss that car...
Anyhow, damping is just as important as spring rate. My initial setups were very over damped in the rear and car was horrible. The spring rate was fine but it's amazing just how bad a shock can make a car handle. It was quite a downer to spend almost $10k on a custom Koni double adjustable setup and have it handle so badly. It took a lot of testing and a lot of revalving before things finally started working correctly. The car did end up handling very well.
My main take-away from all that is that unless you have a money tree and a lot of time and you're very serious in your choice of racing (or if you have no other choice like the 510 in this video), get something good off the shelf. Someone else went through all the pain and testing to make the setup right for you.
No question the dampers are just as important (if not more so) than the springs. The spring rates really just set the roll rates, while the dampers really help the tire and chassis control body motion and generate mechanical grip at the tires. Choosing the right spring rates for a given setup and a given track is important, but having a damper than can control those rates and body motion well is huge on a race car.
In our experience there are some excellent off-the-shelf coilovers kits on the market and some terrible ones. You definitely need to do your homework here, as companies are sometimes rather conservative and dial in understeer with their spring rate choices to try protect themselves from liability.
You said it much better than me. :)
Was that at Hypermeet? I feel like I recognize it :)
Yes it was.
N.V. Auto Ah, I knew it.
Cool vid guys, what's up with the white Z in the background?
Wondering the same thing, looks to be a 240z according to the tail light panel. I have 2 '72 240zs :)
It's actually a 280 that's been converted to 240 specs, including a G-nose and a sweet built L28 under the hood.
As Dave mentioned below, it's a 280Z relieved of most creature comforts with a stoutly built L28...OS Giken diff, S12 gearbox, not really anything left stock...and much carbon fibre and plastic windows. I guess I should update my build thread...got a bit slack with that. retrorides.proboards.com/thread/86608
+James Sherwood plan on LS swapping mine 😂
How did you guys measure the unsprung corner weights? Did I miss that?
Nice work btw. What frequencies are you looking to pick?
Also, I'm looking for custom springs... would your Eibach Canada contact be able to help me out?
Yes, Eibach Canada can get you springs in pretty much any rate.
We'll post up a story to our website soon with all the math including suspension frequencies, but I think we ended up around 2hz front and a bit less rear. We think this should work well with a high grip track tire like JP runs on this car (Pirelli Trofeo R) with limited aero, but probably a bit low for slicks esp. if we add some serious downforce to the package.
+Speed Academy have you read about flat ride? Yes, for a full track car... wow 2Hz is a caddy lol
Hey how are u I have a b210 n want to do suspension on it have any tips or where I can find parts for it
he could just put some techno toy tuning coilovers.
When you live in the US and have a Tim Hortons 4 blocks away.
They live in Canada.
+ap2pat I don't though, we have Tim Hortons here in the US.
thomas weitz
Ohh I thought you said where :D Is it good? I have never heard of it here in Florida
I live in Montreal and let me tell you, Timmies is one of the best things you can treat yourself to (in moderation of course).
Where did you get the information for this?
Could do without the music on this otherwise good video
Dave was on flu meds when he chose that music, it's true.
I think the Kazoo totally worked.. The human brain performs better math when being soothed by the sweet sounds of a kazoo..
how did you set the suspension to ride height while being on stands? Is this a good way to preload components while going to torque bolts?
On a coiler with an adjustable shock body, you simply remove the spring and adjust the hub up to the height it would sit at while loaded by the weight of the car.
Doesnt Tim Hortons basically just sponsor all of Canada ?
Hey Pete and Dave, I love you channel, but this music... do I need to say anymore.
Dave was on drug meds when he edited this video so the music is questionable at best!
And we are going to see the slammed school bus when?
check out @worksgarage on instagram for more pics!
How do I enroll? lol
ugh that weird a** backround sound is annoying 😑
what is that car worth
*Dr. Evil voice* ONE MILLION DOLLARS
rip audio
Me and math don't get along very well at all, regardless I still learned something new though. I will say that the background music was very odd and distracting at times. I was laughing instead of listening to what you were saying.
Dave was on cold meds when he edited this video! lol
Those were some powerful meds lol.
That has to be some of the worst background music. I'm sorry to say 😂 otherwise awesome video
Haha, people seem to either love or hate the music. It was meant to be funny, but it clearly rubbed quite a few people the wrong way.
+Speed Academy oh ya I was laughing at the start but but then at the 10 minute mark haha oh my
f20c, f20c everywhere
THE MUSIC SUCKS AND IS VERY ANNOYING I CAN HARDLY HEAR JP TALK . I think this channel is awesome but who ever edited this episode should stop editing !
kazoo music
Dave was feeling "creative" (drunk) when he chose the music.
damn how tall is he? lmao
6'8''. Wookie size.
only if they had tim hortons in the us.. sad face
They do have some in Michigan. And maybe out west in Washington too.
stop wasting your time and just run Techno Toy Tuning
Or we could do things ourselves, learn some things along the way, and have some fun, and develop a custom setup that works really well on our car, for our custom control arms, for our tracks, our tire choice, and our driving style.
The only parts T3 makes for this particular setup are rear coilovers. They have nothing available that will work for a 510 using an s chassis hub. Take a gander at the article on the website. It outlines everything and the thinking behind it!
why the measurements in inches and not in millimeters?
the metric system for such measurements much more suitable and more accurate!
greetings from Germany
good question! Metric would have been easier, but JP likes to make things hard.
I'm just here to annoy dave, and the internet as a whole