The Scarlet Brotherhood is identified as one of the Slave Lords’ customers (and they are motivated enough to get their agents on its board of directors). Given their LE alignment, doctrines of Suel superiority, and their location in latitudes that favor plantation-type agriculture, their interest in slavery is almost overdetermined.
There's no slavery in the city of Greyhawk. In either Greyhawk: The Adventure Begins or A Players Guide to Greyhawk (I forget which) it is stated that Slavery was outlawed a century ago (meaning 491CY) coinciding with the cities official independence from the Great Kingdom of Aerdy, though it had not really been practiced for much longer. However the laws of the city made exceptions for intelligent monster, so you can still keep a beholder in your basement to guard your treasure vault and Lizardmen were classified as intelligent monsters so it was legal to keep them as slaves (still wasn't done often, except for in the arena as gladiators) and this leads to minor subplot in the Age of Worms adventure path where players can partition the city to change the laws around Lizardmen.
Thanks for covering a subject that most publishers wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole even two decades ago. The slavers series definitely put slavery in Greyhawk as a front issue and imo a good opportunity for some heroics and fighting the good fight (and anybody that thinks that it's so Greyhawk players can indulge in some sort of slavery fantasy is either a kneejerk numbskull or just a dishonest concern troll looking for something to attack). But do you think there is anyplace in Greyhawk that outright bans slavery? Seems to me most of Greyhawk is pseudo-medieval so it might not be banned even in good kingdoms like Veluna etc...just that they didn't have full blown chattel slavery (the classical world slavery that most in the Roman world suffered or otherwise 'plantation' slavery). Basically as you said a social class lower than serf that could occur if someone sold themselves into slavery etc & worked more semi-skilled job (like in a tannery or worse a slave-prisoner for a mine), but given serf-peasant labor & subsistence agriculture the economics of chattel slavery didn't make much economic sense. Maybe Celene but they are pretty insular...Tehn? All the barbarians probably do have some form of thralldom... I didn't much care for the adventure Slavers...and a slave army when you have hordes of humanoids that fit the same role doesn't make a terrible lot of sense. The Ottomans took Christian boys to train into janissaries but iirc they weren't going out of their way to snatch just children. Even less so considering Mak I think was looking for troops, not soldier-slaves to run his bureaucracy. The Pomarj itself can be a little bit iffy as a hub of slavery as well...the 'Poor March'. Doesn't seem they have a lot of mines that would be worth the expense of slaves nor good cash crops that would make chattel slavery make sense. I guess the Pomarj could be selling slaves elsewhere...to the Scarlet Brotherhood & Sea Princes. Or even moved into the underdark from the Pomarj (the drow connection). I suppose the good kingdoms would have more rules on slavery...how they are treated, how they are slaves (no generational slaves for instance), who can own them (like in Tehn the church technically owns them), before getting into the economics of the thing.
I'd say (albeit without a specific reference to which I can point right now) that places like Furyondy, Veluna, Nyrond, and Almor ban it. And, as another commenter mentioned, the city of Greyhawk has it as a crime to trade in slaves.
What gets me is that Trithereon (the CG anti-slavery deity) is listed as being most common in the Yeomanry and the Shield Lands, which are both Lawful Good states. Maybe my definition of LG was not as authoritarian as Gygax’…he makes it sound more LN.
The A1-A4 series could, if you are thoughtful about it, tie in to D1-3, as at the very end of A2 there are drow merchants to be encountered. Personally I would rather tie A1-4 to D1-3 by way of G1-3 first, as the drow are also involved in that business, but connecting the A series to the G series is a bit more effort. But, a necessary effort, as the A series is levels 4-7, and the D series is levels 10-14, and you need to bridge that level gap somehow, so in goes the G series.
From a historical prespective slavery does not usally go away but evolves into a new form. If a GM wanted to explore that Oerth could be a setting to do that. Is the slavery of the evil kingdoms so different from the serfdom of the good kingdoms?
Gygax had “freemen” on the ‘83 World of Greyhawk Guide social class list (p.80). I’m not sure if he meant freed slaves because it’s a little high on the list and if it had been freed slaves that should have put them down by the vagabond category unless they had a skilled profession. Of course, if a slave could afford to purchase their own freedom they most likely do have a skill, unlike in the TV series Rome where they scraped together a few coins here and there for years.
That's really the only definition of the term; freed slaves. Bear in mind, though, that that list of social ranks was a very generic one, and referred to the entirety of the Flanaess. Naturally, it would be malleable and subject to change in specific places, and in specific circumstances. Based on the Roman and Norse example, the freed slaves would absolutely be the ones who had marketable skills.
Slavery is pretty much part of every primitive (Iron Age and before) culture. Never heard any complaints about it playing for over well over 40 years. In my game Greyhawk has slavery. Sometimes my players buy a slave to be porters and what not.
Very thought-provoking. Here are the bad guys, here's what they do, but.... why do they do that? Also I like the idea of the City of Greyhawk maybe having approved of slavery once, in the past, but more recently has turned its back on it as it became more enlightened. This could allow the remannts of the die-hard slaver elements to have underground networks in the city and connections to the slavers outside the city. Maybe the same with some of the other larger cities.
Great Video! Thanks for hitting on this subject. In general all tables can do what they will with every realistic aspect of human history no one is "wrong" but glorifying bad moments in history are definitely not done at my games. I view slavery in my games as the equivalent to say a large scale war of participating nations or a large scale environmental problem facing the entire province sure the adventurers can choose to fight the slavers or attack fringe parts of enemie forces in a war, or find an oracle to stop the environmental catastrophe in fact the oracle could also help in solving the slavery issue. Sending the adventurers on a quest to find Devine items or shrine of peace many cool campaigns can be had without even seeing slavery or a war in full action. Hope everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving in America and a wonderful weekend to all 🎲🦖🤺🕊
I do slavery as just matter of fact. I try to have slavery as persia, Egypt, or rome would have it. I do however have critics of slavery. But they are few and far between (damn liberals).
I am still new to the World of Greyhawk. With all of the worship of suffering in Iuz and the Horned Society, written into "The Marklands" and "Iuz the Evil" one wonders about the logistics and feeding of Iuz's armies. Yes, you have Fiends running some estates and some human settlements than undoubted are heavily taxed in meat and grains, and grog, I suppose. But with such animus toward life who cares if the orcs and hobgoblins are well fed? If the farmers have fled the border areas, raiding and pillaging is no longer viable. So there are likely frequent orc and hobgoblin revolts and repressions. Also, while I love the Darlene map and the sourcebook maps of Furyondy and the Veng River region, the Veng and the Crystal rivers have no visible tributaries. This is a major geographic problem. There have got to be many villages, hamlets, and farmsteads to supply the cities and towns with agricultural goods. There are undoubted dozens of Hommlets and Nulbs in each province of Furyondy. I'm not suggesting that anyone running a game in Greyhawk has to draw all of them in, but it seems like something that anyone using Greyhawk should be aware of.
You should track down a copy of The Marklands, which really beefs up the details on Furyondy and Nyrond. I get the impression that the tributary rivers are implied, simply by virtue of the scale of the maps. If they were all included, it would be difficult to find room for anything else at that scale.
Sad that people feel they have to give a disclaimer to talk about slavery in a fantasy game. Slavery was a huge part of world civilizations throughout history. People not liking it doesn't negate that simple fact. People really need to grow up. Having slavery in your setting doesn't mean you're endorsing it. Additionally, there were ancient societies where being a slave was better than certain other conditions; even desirable.
According to the City of Greyhawk boxed set, slavery & the procurement of slaves is illegal in the City's territory, being a minor crime. Also, I don't believe slavery would be legal in Dyvers either, although I have no reference. I just think Dyvers' neighbors, Veluna & Furyondy would definitely not want slavers to be operating in the City, making slave raids into those two nations. They'd probably shut down Dyvers fast if that happened.
In Saga of Old City, it does specifically say that the workhouse inmates were slaves (p. 20), although that could be hyperbole. Alternatively, it could just mean the City maintains a monopoly on slavery, and only those convicted of crimes and sent to the workhouse fall into the category (but anyone trying it on their own is guilty of the crime you mention). But thanks for the mention of the criminal code in the boxed set!
@@GreyhawkGrognard Prison workhouses did exist in history. You hear stories of people being sent to the “poor house”. That was probably with the goal of working their way to freedom, although I can’t see how that would work with children like in the novel. You’d expect them to get shipped off to an orphanage a la Oliver Twist, Thieves’ Guilds, etc.
As for slavery not existing in Good kingdoms…slavery/serfdom existed in most medieval countries in real life, even in ones claiming to be Good, and this culture is what D&D was based on. The Bible, for example, suggested that Christian slaves be content with their lot (I’ve never agreed with that…but we’re talking about the Roman Empire here), on the other hand, the same Bible strongly condemned procurers (slavers) as some of the most evil people in existence. On the other hand, maybe you want to view Lawful Good with modern eyes and rule that Furyondy and Veluna ban all slavery (Spock: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few) and their tenant farmers are not serfs.
In medieval terms a freeman was not a freed slave. A freeman was basically a peasant or commoner, but not a villein. My opinion is that slavery would not be legal in Greyhawk or Dyvers, but it exists the same way it exists in the real world where slavery is officially illegal. In the Wild Coast, where slavers can be encountered, the coast and countryside are targeted by slavers, and you might encounter freeholds where slaves exist, but I would say that slavery was not legal in the listed towns. The way it is called out for the Sea Princes in the Guide gives me the impression that is is not something that is very common, legally, in most areas that aren't evil or primitive.
One of my characters likes to hunt, kidnap, torture, obtain information from, and kill slavers. He is a dual class human fighter Lord, Arch Mage. That may be a problem for the slavers!
Try playing "Conan Exiles", you literally can't play unless you capture yourself a hand full of slaves. I mean you can make armor and weapons on your benches yourself....but the stats suck. Only like a Tier 3 or named blacksmith or armorer is going to be able to make the good stuff. I was pretty disgusted by this at first...until I realized how much fun it is. lol
Slavery and other forms of tyranny and oppression are the villains in a good fantasy world. But I do think if you are going to write an adventure you should have studied slavery in a comparative fashion. In the Atlantic trade, it was often used by African societies as a means of "outsourcing" P.O.W.s, but this could not have happened without European run plantations and slave ships. Spartacus is the classic tale of a heroic enslaved leader of a uprising. There was also slavery in the near east on a smaller scale which I am least familiar with. The further east you went in Europe, the more serfdom resembled a form of slavery, as I understand it. While it easy to excuse historical misrepresentations of slavery by saying "it's just a fantasy game", I would not be happy with an adventure that promoted false ideas used to soften the realities that existed in the United States like "slaves were expensive so they were usually treated well like valuable livestock". That's a homoeconomicius theory (people usually make rational economic decisions, but this is inaccurate and harmful. At the core is one man imposing his will on another and brute force was often involved. Appearing "too smart" or "too proud" could be fatal as slave owners where well aware of slave resistance in it's many manifestations. But it could also lead to being sold away from one's family. Also, in the American south there was enough awareness of the Haitian Revolution of 1792-1804 and slave revolts in the U.S.that slave owners were an uneasy bunch.
I disagree. It is indeed "just a fantasy game" and when I play it, I'm not looking for a nuanced commentary on historical socio-economic moral theory. I'm looking for a chance to play a heroic character against a highly selective and romanticized quasi-Medieval backdrop, and if that means slavery works differently in the fantasy world, then so be it.
The Scarlet Brotherhood is identified as one of the Slave Lords’ customers (and they are motivated enough to get their agents on its board of directors). Given their LE alignment, doctrines of Suel superiority, and their location in latitudes that favor plantation-type agriculture, their interest in slavery is almost overdetermined.
There's no slavery in the city of Greyhawk. In either Greyhawk: The Adventure Begins or A Players Guide to Greyhawk (I forget which) it is stated that Slavery was outlawed a century ago (meaning 491CY) coinciding with the cities official independence from the Great Kingdom of Aerdy, though it had not really been practiced for much longer. However the laws of the city made exceptions for intelligent monster, so you can still keep a beholder in your basement to guard your treasure vault and Lizardmen were classified as intelligent monsters so it was legal to keep them as slaves (still wasn't done often, except for in the arena as gladiators) and this leads to minor subplot in the Age of Worms adventure path where players can partition the city to change the laws around Lizardmen.
My favorite book was the one you mentioned by Joel Rosenberg. Guardians of the Flame!
I read those. Pretty good.
Absolutely fantastic series of books. Really show the brutality of slavery. Killing slavers is always a good time
Guardians of the Flame - great books.
Interesting look into the topic, I didnt realize how widespread it was in greyhawk
Thanks for covering a subject that most publishers wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole even two decades ago. The slavers series definitely put slavery in Greyhawk as a front issue and imo a good opportunity for some heroics and fighting the good fight (and anybody that thinks that it's so Greyhawk players can indulge in some sort of slavery fantasy is either a kneejerk numbskull or just a dishonest concern troll looking for something to attack).
But do you think there is anyplace in Greyhawk that outright bans slavery?
Seems to me most of Greyhawk is pseudo-medieval so it might not be banned even in good kingdoms like Veluna etc...just that they didn't have full blown chattel slavery (the classical world slavery that most in the Roman world suffered or otherwise 'plantation' slavery). Basically as you said a social class lower than serf that could occur if someone sold themselves into slavery etc & worked more semi-skilled job (like in a tannery or worse a slave-prisoner for a mine), but given serf-peasant labor & subsistence agriculture the economics of chattel slavery didn't make much economic sense. Maybe Celene but they are pretty insular...Tehn? All the barbarians probably do have some form of thralldom...
I didn't much care for the adventure Slavers...and a slave army when you have hordes of humanoids that fit the same role doesn't make a terrible lot of sense. The Ottomans took Christian boys to train into janissaries but iirc they weren't going out of their way to snatch just children. Even less so considering Mak I think was looking for troops, not soldier-slaves to run his bureaucracy. The Pomarj itself can be a little bit iffy as a hub of slavery as well...the 'Poor March'. Doesn't seem they have a lot of mines that would be worth the expense of slaves nor good cash crops that would make chattel slavery make sense. I guess the Pomarj could be selling slaves elsewhere...to the Scarlet Brotherhood & Sea Princes. Or even moved into the underdark from the Pomarj (the drow connection).
I suppose the good kingdoms would have more rules on slavery...how they are treated, how they are slaves (no generational slaves for instance), who can own them (like in Tehn the church technically owns them), before getting into the economics of the thing.
I'd say (albeit without a specific reference to which I can point right now) that places like Furyondy, Veluna, Nyrond, and Almor ban it. And, as another commenter mentioned, the city of Greyhawk has it as a crime to trade in slaves.
What gets me is that Trithereon (the CG anti-slavery deity) is listed as being most common in the Yeomanry and the Shield Lands, which are both Lawful Good states. Maybe my definition of LG was not as authoritarian as Gygax’…he makes it sound more LN.
@@GreyhawkGrognard If you use later edition stuff. That isn’t mentioned in the 1e books and Greyhawk City supposedly allowed evil deities.
The A1-A4 series could, if you are thoughtful about it, tie in to D1-3, as at the very end of A2 there are drow merchants to be encountered. Personally I would rather tie A1-4 to D1-3 by way of G1-3 first, as the drow are also involved in that business, but connecting the A series to the G series is a bit more effort. But, a necessary effort, as the A series is levels 4-7, and the D series is levels 10-14, and you need to bridge that level gap somehow, so in goes the G series.
Very good and very thought provoking video.
Not to mention enslavement of humans & demi-humans by others such as Minf-Flayers,Aboleths, etc.
True, the derro, drow, etc. are most definitely slave-holding cultures.
From a historical prespective slavery does not usally go away but evolves into a new form. If a GM wanted to explore that Oerth could be a setting to do that. Is the slavery of the evil kingdoms so different from the serfdom of the good kingdoms?
Gygax had “freemen” on the ‘83 World of Greyhawk Guide social class list (p.80). I’m not sure if he meant freed slaves because it’s a little high on the list and if it had been freed slaves that should have put them down by the vagabond category unless they had a skilled profession. Of course, if a slave could afford to purchase their own freedom they most likely do have a skill, unlike in the TV series Rome where they scraped together a few coins here and there for years.
That's really the only definition of the term; freed slaves. Bear in mind, though, that that list of social ranks was a very generic one, and referred to the entirety of the Flanaess. Naturally, it would be malleable and subject to change in specific places, and in specific circumstances. Based on the Roman and Norse example, the freed slaves would absolutely be the ones who had marketable skills.
Slavery is pretty much part of every primitive (Iron Age and before) culture. Never heard any complaints about it playing for over well over 40 years. In my game Greyhawk has slavery. Sometimes my players buy a slave to be porters and what not.
I'm setting a game in the Pale and wonder what their thoughts are on it. Palor is Lawful Neutral.
Great video!
Very thought-provoking. Here are the bad guys, here's what they do, but.... why do they do that? Also I like the idea of the City of Greyhawk maybe having approved of slavery once, in the past, but more recently has turned its back on it as it became more enlightened. This could allow the remannts of the die-hard slaver elements to have underground networks in the city and connections to the slavers outside the city. Maybe the same with some of the other larger cities.
Great Video! Thanks for hitting on this subject. In general all tables can do what they will with every realistic aspect of human history no one is "wrong" but glorifying bad moments in history are definitely not done at my games. I view slavery in my games as the equivalent to say a large scale war of participating nations or a large scale environmental problem facing the entire province sure the adventurers can choose to fight the slavers or attack fringe parts of enemie forces in a war, or find an oracle to stop the environmental catastrophe in fact the oracle could also help in solving the slavery issue. Sending the adventurers on a quest to find Devine items or shrine of peace many cool campaigns can be had without even seeing slavery or a war in full action. Hope everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving in America and a wonderful weekend to all 🎲🦖🤺🕊
I do slavery as just matter of fact. I try to have slavery as persia, Egypt, or rome would have it. I do however have critics of slavery. But they are few and far between (damn liberals).
I am still new to the World of Greyhawk. With all of the worship of suffering in Iuz and the Horned Society, written into "The Marklands" and "Iuz the Evil" one wonders about the logistics and feeding of Iuz's armies. Yes, you have Fiends running some estates and some human settlements than undoubted are heavily taxed in meat and grains, and grog, I suppose. But with such animus toward life who cares if the orcs and hobgoblins are well fed? If the farmers have fled the border areas, raiding and pillaging is no longer viable. So there are likely frequent orc and hobgoblin revolts and repressions.
Also, while I love the Darlene map and the sourcebook maps of Furyondy and the Veng River region, the Veng and the Crystal rivers have no visible tributaries. This is a major geographic problem. There have got to be many villages, hamlets, and farmsteads to supply the cities and towns with agricultural goods. There are undoubted dozens of Hommlets and Nulbs in each province of Furyondy. I'm not suggesting that anyone running a game in Greyhawk has to draw all of them in, but it seems like something that anyone using Greyhawk should be aware of.
You should track down a copy of The Marklands, which really beefs up the details on Furyondy and Nyrond. I get the impression that the tributary rivers are implied, simply by virtue of the scale of the maps. If they were all included, it would be difficult to find room for anything else at that scale.
I always viewed this as in the movie captain blood.
We have pirates, ships, plantations .....
All very Sea Prince like.
Sad that people feel they have to give a disclaimer to talk about slavery in a fantasy game. Slavery was a huge part of world civilizations throughout history. People not liking it doesn't negate that simple fact. People really need to grow up. Having slavery in your setting doesn't mean you're endorsing it. Additionally, there were ancient societies where being a slave was better than certain other conditions; even desirable.
According to the City of Greyhawk boxed set, slavery & the procurement of slaves is illegal in the City's territory, being a minor crime.
Also, I don't believe slavery would be legal in Dyvers either, although I have no reference. I just think Dyvers' neighbors, Veluna & Furyondy would definitely not want slavers to be operating in the City, making slave raids into those two nations. They'd probably shut down Dyvers fast if that happened.
In Saga of Old City, it does specifically say that the workhouse inmates were slaves (p. 20), although that could be hyperbole. Alternatively, it could just mean the City maintains a monopoly on slavery, and only those convicted of crimes and sent to the workhouse fall into the category (but anyone trying it on their own is guilty of the crime you mention). But thanks for the mention of the criminal code in the boxed set!
Well that’s if you consider later-edition Greyhawk stuff to be official in your own campaign.
@@GreyhawkGrognard Prison workhouses did exist in history. You hear stories of people being sent to the “poor house”. That was probably with the goal of working their way to freedom, although I can’t see how that would work with children like in the novel. You’d expect them to get shipped off to an orphanage a la Oliver Twist, Thieves’ Guilds, etc.
As for slavery not existing in Good kingdoms…slavery/serfdom existed in most medieval countries in real life, even in ones claiming to be Good, and this culture is what D&D was based on. The Bible, for example, suggested that Christian slaves be content with their lot (I’ve never agreed with that…but we’re talking about the Roman Empire here), on the other hand, the same Bible strongly condemned procurers (slavers) as some of the most evil people in existence. On the other hand, maybe you want to view Lawful Good with modern eyes and rule that Furyondy and Veluna ban all slavery (Spock: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few) and their tenant farmers are not serfs.
Slavers, gotta love 'em! You can do whatever you want to 'em and not feel bad about it!
In medieval terms a freeman was not a freed slave. A freeman was basically a peasant or commoner, but not a villein. My opinion is that slavery would not be legal in Greyhawk or Dyvers, but it exists the same way it exists in the real world where slavery is officially illegal. In the Wild Coast, where slavers can be encountered, the coast and countryside are targeted by slavers, and you might encounter freeholds where slaves exist, but I would say that slavery was not legal in the listed towns. The way it is called out for the Sea Princes in the Guide gives me the impression that is is not something that is very common, legally, in most areas that aren't evil or primitive.
One of my characters likes to hunt, kidnap, torture, obtain information from, and kill slavers. He is a dual class human fighter Lord, Arch Mage. That may be a problem for the slavers!
Try playing "Conan Exiles", you literally can't play unless you capture yourself a hand full of slaves. I mean you can make armor and weapons on your benches yourself....but the stats suck. Only like a Tier 3 or named blacksmith or armorer is going to be able to make the good stuff. I was pretty disgusted by this at first...until I realized how much fun it is. lol
Slavery and other forms of tyranny and oppression are the villains in a good fantasy world. But I do think if you are going to write an adventure you should have studied slavery in a comparative fashion. In the Atlantic trade, it was often used by African societies as a means of "outsourcing" P.O.W.s, but this could not have happened without European run plantations and slave ships. Spartacus is the classic tale of a heroic enslaved leader of a uprising. There was also slavery in the near east on a smaller scale which I am least familiar with. The further east you went in Europe, the more serfdom resembled a form of slavery, as I understand it.
While it easy to excuse historical misrepresentations of slavery by saying "it's just a fantasy game", I would not be happy with an adventure that promoted false ideas used to soften the realities that existed in the United States like "slaves were expensive so they were usually treated well like valuable livestock". That's a homoeconomicius theory (people usually make rational economic decisions, but this is inaccurate and harmful.
At the core is one man imposing his will on another and brute force was often involved. Appearing "too smart" or "too proud" could be fatal as slave owners where well aware of slave resistance in it's many manifestations. But it could also lead to being sold away from one's family. Also, in the American south there was enough awareness of the Haitian Revolution of 1792-1804 and slave revolts in the U.S.that slave owners were an uneasy bunch.
I disagree. It is indeed "just a fantasy game" and when I play it, I'm not looking for a nuanced commentary on historical socio-economic moral theory. I'm looking for a chance to play a heroic character against a highly selective and romanticized quasi-Medieval backdrop, and if that means slavery works differently in the fantasy world, then so be it.