Could you do a 5 minute guide about the SS Delphine? The Dodge family steam ship. It's for sale right now! Also, could you talk about her quadruple expansion engines?
Is the MV Liemba, formerly known as the Graf von Goetzen on the list? The history of the battle for lake Tanganyika is pretty interesting in itself, covering an often completely unknown aspect of WWI, and the fact that the ship is still in service today quite astonishing.
Well said, Shojikitsune! My dad, God rest his soul, would have agreed wholeheartedly with you! Fletcher, and her sisters, could take a licking and keep on ticking!
@@Self-replicating_whatnot Those destroyers weren't that bad...Of cours they weren't the greatest destroyers ever but the best thing was there was something like 200+ Wickes/Clemson destroyers built so they were very expendable. They more than earned their investment by being available in 1940-42 for the Royal Navy/USN before the USN were able to massively build a bunch of better destroyers starting in 1943.
Funny that you link this incident to whale beaching - because Navies DO have to do with that: Warships high-powered active sonars can destroy whales biological sonar receivers (if you don't know: whales use biological sonar for navigation) if they are close enough. Thus irreparably blinded these whales are doomed. This information is not shared around much, because it would question Navies use of active sonar - and for obvious reasons this would be very detrimental to a Navies capabilities. It is a tragic shame though, because whales might be the only other intelligent live-form we share this planet with...
@A Simple Mohave Desert Tortoise I am actually happy to hear there have been actions taken already, even though they degrade our Navies capabilities (I am German, btw). It would be a tragedy if we would kill off all whales before we get a chance to learn to communicate with them. They are quite likely just as intelligent as we are, because they clearly show logical thinking that exceeds way beyond instincts. Heck, they are propably dead anyway with the global warming getting out of control. :,(
If only the Kamchatka had run aground there first. She would have never allowed those American torpedo boats to come anywhere close. Or that other steam ship, or a fishing boat, or floating debris, or...
I have actually dove on these wrecks, the shore entry was rough and the exit was even more hazardous ( only a couple days a year it’s “calm” enough to enter ).The underwater ground was barren hard rock and the ships had been salvaged down to a little below the water line. Only item I salvaged was a brass blow tube cover which I never cleaned and have today. I believe it is now off limits to diving due to hazardous area and being directly off the coast of Vandenberg Air Force missile base. I do remember seeing a large pile of ammunition crusted together that I tried to pry a large shell off of before I thought to myself WtH am I’m doing. My diving partner and I where almost unable to reach shore and while clinging to rocks we declared each on there own. We both made it and never tried again. Those were good times when we were young and diving fools. Happy memories, Thanks for the video.
Your description of the shoreline and sea condition is exactly what I recall. There was an attempt by a group of US Navy divers from San Diego to repair a communications line just offshore that had failed. The divers were in the water for a short time before returning to their vessel saying the currents there made condition simply too dangerous to work in. There are two major currents that meet at Honda Point. On from the south (Baja Flow) is a warm water current and it meets the cold from the north(Aleutian/Japanese). Not only are there two physical hydraulic-forces there but the thermal variations there add to the turbulence in those waters. Honda Point has some of the most dangerous waters to work in or deal with.
The idea that night was to simulate a mission calling on DesRon 11 to make 20 knots to relieve other destroyers under attack. If they had depended on the RDF readings and stayed even just a mile more offshore, the squadron would have passed the rocks without incident. Since part of the reason for this exercise was to practice with the RDF, ignoring the data was ignoring the whole reason for the exercise. I don't buy the whole Japanese Earthquake theory. It was a failure in standard navigational techniques that the RDF was supposed to compensate for. 20 knots on a cloudy, foggy night with rough seas was already a risk. The Commodore should have slowed his ships and headed west until they could determine why the RDF readings were so much different than the positions provided by dead reckoning.
@@sarjim4381 Yes. What was the commander's further career,I wonder. Drach states he was stripped of seniority. Given the loss of materiel and of life,it would seem to me he should have had his commission vacated. Regardless of his honourable willingness to take full responsibility. Bad decisions in peacetime are bad enough. As a wartime training exercise,it demonstrated the man's inability to make good decisions at time of need. At least in my opinion. I do know that early in his career, Nimitz ran a ship aground,usually a career ending move. Mistakes are infinite. Doing the right thing after an oopsie is what separates leaders from REMF types. Do we have somewhere in the electronic information world to determine the rest of the commander's life ?
@@sarjim4381 The earthquake caused problems with properly accounting for currents and seas which made dead reckoning much more difficult. Ignoring the RDF plots because they indicated your dead reckoning is wrong was a gross stupidity even if the RDF systems were crude by modern standards. It is just like going out in a fog today and getting confused while ignoring your GPS position on your phone because the GPS has to wrong. The fact that other squadrons used the RDF information as a check and realized something was wrong indicates who had the problem.
You can tell the navy has adequate reserves when you can just activate a replacement DESRON worth of hulls.... without significantly reducing your reserve fleet This was a valuable lesson ... and the force was operating in austere conditions. .. By being able to suffer such losses you can allow your navy to gain the experience and confidence that they will need in wartime The men behaved bravely and rescue efforts were carried out in a commendable manner... The force commander proved he was made of the correct moral fibre by taking the full and complete blame for the incident and no others had their careers ruined.... The loss of life being the real tragedy
Some words of wisdom which received confirmation (yet again) at Honda point: 1) Good judgement comes from experience, but experience comes from bad judgement. 2) A true expert is a professional who has commited every immaginable error within his field. 3) If you don't pay the toll on the bridge you will pay it on a ferry 4) War requires 3 things: 1. money 2. money 3. and money.
Yes that stood out to me during the episode. Just how proactive the crews were in getting themselves to safety, and assisting those around them at the same time. At least the navy could be confident that part of their training was adequate.
Cap'n Crunch, ""It's got rocks for crunch, waves for punch, and it stays crunchy, until you pay attention to the Radio Direction Finder, and alter course accordingly."
It shows a Capt who saw and recognized the threat AND had the intestinal fortitude to disregard orders and to break ranks, thus leading the remainder of the squadron out of harm’s way. Breaking ranks is the same as disobeying a superior’s orders. Those are very serious, career destroying actions IF the officer in question turns out to have been in error..... Remember, the sea going services of all nations are noted for “eating their young”!
Even in "modern" times, navigation errors happen. I was on the USS Enterprise in 1983 when she ran aground in plain view of San Fran and Oakland a mile from the pier after passing under the Oakland Bay Bridge. One factor was the Navigator miscalculated the flood tide at 0.5 knots but was actually 1.5 knots. The Captain was conning the ship at the time but was already selected for Admiral. The Board of Inquiry did not blame the Captain enough to stop the promotion and he became an Admiral (note: he was an aviator so not sure how much that was a factor for keeping the promotion). I left her in March 1984. Not too long after that, the Big E was doing flight ops off San Dieago. The bridge crew were so cocerned over maintaining wind speed over the deck for flight ops that no one notice their track was heading them into the shoals known as Castle Rock. Yes, she hit the shoals which caused the side tanks to spill JP5 and take on seawater. While in no danger of sinking, the repairs were not minor and she spent time in drydock at the Bremerton Naval Shipyard in thr Puget Sound. In this case the Captain, yes, an aviator too, was relieved of command.
All Carrier type ships in the USN are commanded by Aviation Officers. This goes back to the days when commanding a Battleship was the pinnacle of ship command. Carriers were support ships back then and beneath the dignity of a true combat captain, plus those aviation guys know better what conditions they want to fly in so we'll give them those ships. The Aviations guys decided not to give their ships back to the surface guys after they lost all their Battleships.
Large navy ships usually picked up pilot officer when entering a tricky harbor (which SF Bay definitely is). The pilot is an expert on the area being traveled and can guide the unfamiliar ship over the sandbars and away from the rocks while entering or leaving.
@@landtuna8061 Yes, we did. But on US Navy ships, Harbor Pilots can only give advice.. In this case the Harbor Pilot was telling the Captain, who wss conning the ship, he had to turn earlier than the nav plot. The Captain eventually did but it was still too late.
So you're telling me the US Navy slapstick-crashed seven whole destroyers into the California coastline in rapid succession? I'm both surprised and not at all surprised that I've never heard this story before.
Wow talk about nostalgia, my great grandparents were the lighthouse keepers during this incident and assisted with some of the rescue . they retired on Friday harbor island Washington after their last posting there. I remember my great grandmother had a huge panoramic black and white photo of the wrecked destroyers.
To be fair the Italians had no fuel for their ships the minute they allied with Germany and fell under the English blockade. With the exception of a couple submarines, their entire navy sat in port most of the war. Now I'm curious who sunk more ships, the Italian Navy or the French Navy, during WWII.
In the '80s USN ships still were equipped with DRAI (Dead-Reckoning Analyzer/Indicator), which took inputs from the Mk-19 Gyrocompass and the ship's underwater log (the speedometer) and produced a latitude/longitude output on the unit itself, as well as sending an output to the plotting tables in the control room/CIC/navigation bridge (depending on the type of ship). After getting a NavSat fix and determining our exact position, it was necessary to reset the DRAI to get all of the navigation team back onto the correct position. It was sometimes amazing how wildly off the DRAI navigation was. Of course, there were other methods of determining our true position in the interim (we had an, at the time, pretty advanced Inertial-navigation system that could sense drift and speed) but the DRAI was the only equipment that could run the plotting tables, so it was a critical piece of gear. Our navigation team were pretty sharp concerning known currents, water depths and other factors that can help fix a true position, skills that I fear may be lost with an overdependence on GPS. I hope that all mariners, both Navy and Merchant, continue to hone their skills in old-school navigation.................................................
I had a 1st Sergeant in the Army that grilled us on navigation/map reading skills because he didn't like how dependent we'd become on GPS. He always said knowing how to read a simple compass, shoot an azimuth, and find your position on a map should be second nature to ANY ground-pounder. Speaking of old school, a friend at work served on the USS Missouri during the Gulf War. He said they used the old firing solution mechanical computers after main battery firing had knocked out their electronics; they worked flawlessly. It's a matter of finding balance between old, proven techniques that'll always be available and incorporating new technology without completely abandoning the former.
Was a QM on Tin Cans (4yrs) & a Reserve Submariner in the sixties. I remember teaching Midshipmen celestial nav which seemed to be a lot art by the late 1980's
@@jacevicki I learned how to do map & compass land nav when I was in the Boy Scouts and I’ve gotten very good at it as a cadet. Never got taught how to use a GPS, and I don’t think ROTC will.
There are other forgotten arts. Sounding weights had a wax (?) bottom so they could pick up bottom crud, which was noted on coastal / shallow charts. Other information noted was smells and water color, maybe depending on season and time of day and tides, and explorers drew coastal scenes from deck height with angles to various land sights, like cliffs, rocks, big trees, buildings, anything which stood out. There's a whole lot of ancient information which no one knows or tracks any more. Egyptian farmers probably knew more about the night sky than kids today know about pop stars; it has very little practical use today, and I doubt anyone, including modern Egyptian farmers, knows anywhere near as much now. Worrying about lost knowledge is fine for history books. But if it were useful, it wouldn't be lost knowledge. There's a difference between useful and interesting.
Very interesting video, and I cannot help to remember what my father said in one discussion we had about GPS. Background is that he went to sea in 1957 at the age of 15, joining a Swedish merchant and spending 10 years, eventually meeting my mother when he was attending the Officer Cadet School to become a Captain. at that time leaving the seas and getting a land education and job. The discussion we had was around the way to navigate old school vs. GPS or similar modern methods, and his words was something like this: "No one can understand the tension and nervousness on a bridge, when at 3 AM in poor weather the ship is closing in on the coast of Newfoundland, and you have not had a sun height for days so you go only by dead reckoning. Suddenly you see a light in the distant that, according to your estimated position, THERE SHOULD NOT BE ANY!"
WOW, what a fine video - and quite meaningful for me, thank you! I grew up in Santa Barbara County, and while I'm in my 40s now, I visited Honda point many, many times in my childhood through my 20s. It was/is a very lovely, lonely, rocky area with an angry sea, it wasn't uncommon to see 15 foot swells and waves making spectacular splashes against the rocks. Being on Vandenberg AFB, the entire scene was set against the spectacular SLCs (Space Launch Complexes) that were readying for the West Coast launches of the space shuttle in the late 80s (which never occurred after the Challenger disaster). The rusted keels of a couple of the ships could still be easily seen in the late 80s and early 90s. Being in the pre-internet days, I never could find much info on the disaster other than a few blurbs in military encyclopedias, and those entries pretty much just restated what was on the memorial Plaque at Honda point. I moved away in the mid-90s and forgot all about Honda Pt, until I happened upon the video today. Hearing the full story from you was WONDERFUL and answered all those questions I had in my childhood that I had forgotten about....thanks again!
As a retired QMC, USCG; I can understand how such a disaster can occur. There’s 2 things that stand out: each Capt is responsible for the safe navigation of his own vessel and the regs require Capt’s to make use of ALL available means to safely navigate. With that being said: I still do not fully trust US Naval Hydrographic charts as I have simultaneously used three different methods of positioning and came up with 3 distinctly different positions. There are many things that come up that contribute to such a disaster. It is not just 1 error but a chain of errors that led to the final end result. Sometimes, shit happens!
Charts and dead reckoning need to be used, as well as, visual aids. The fog could have played a part, but then move further out to sea to the West, south west, for error. Thanks QMC for your service! Retired GMC Navy.
Robert Adamcik A question, sir. If a Captain is following in formation, and can see that the formation is headed for unintended land fall... Can he break formation thus disobeying orders?
@@samiam619, yes if it means keeping his ship safe. One of the COs in this case was taken to court-martial for failing to follow the guide, but was acquitted.
As a Former RN Navigator (specialising in coastal waters) I would also point out that while Radio beacons are great for measuring distance they are pretty poor at producing an accurate bearing and normally when using beacons we would draw a circle around the locations of multiple detected beacons on the chart with the reported ranges of the beacons being the radius of the circles a minimum of three seperate beacons should be used and you should plot where these circles intersect (they never will perfectly and you end up with a small triangle on the chart that you are somewhere inside and it is good practice to assume that within the triangle you are at the point closest to danger this inherent issue with radio beacons is allot worse in bad weather especially in fog this was an inherent problem in radio beacon systems that didnt really get solved until the advent of GPS and the captain was right to not fully trust the beacons however he should have trusted them a damn site more than dead reckoning
@@EricDKaufman There's a lot of really bad history regarding the USN...and part of me thinks disasters and crushing defeats are why people like to make younger people dumber and dumber with each passing generation so they don't have to talk about the bad parts of their history.
Guy I work with served on a frigate during the 80's. He said their new captain ran them aground on a sandbar his first day. He said it collapsed the sonar dome on the front and he and his engine room colleagues had to stay on station for nearly two days doing nothing but changing out screens for the water intake line as they would plug up with sand almost instantly. It took two ships to pull them out. The captain never saw the deck of a ship again, while it was good for the crew because they spent a month in dry dock for repairs with shore leave.
My late Uncle, a Signals Officer in WW2, claimed the greatest contribution of RADAR in WW2 was keeping the amateur sailors of the USNR from running aground more often. Geoff Who does not doubt it.
These happened to be regular officers of the USN who I suppose have benefited from radar also. Don't forget that Chester Nimitz ran his first command (a destroyer) aground when he was a young naval officer. It was refloated and he was forgiven.
Sir we just lost an entire Division of Destroyers? how do we make good our losses given the Budget environment? US Navy: Super Easy barely, inconvenience!
As a Officer Candidate in the US Coast Guard in 1970 this was a highlight in Navigation class. This was before GPS but we did have access to LORAN which gave us an additional aid to navigation. Speed in fog near a coastline is bad juju. Trust your instruments but always take advantage of light houses. That will save your bacon. Great treatment of this accident. I remember reading a book about it 40 years ago.
Great job. May I suggest the "Battle of May Island" next? Which aside of navigational errors also involved the worst submarine design the Royal Navy ever put to sea. Where you every time you submerge flip a coin. If you lose, everyone on board dies.
"I knew I should have made a left turn at Albuquerque." Famous Bugs Bunny quote. In a Warner Bros. cartoon, Bugs tunnels underground and comes up in Germany during WW11. He gives the Nazi's hell, notably Goring and Hitler. See "Herr Meets Hare." I must have seen it 50 years ago.
See UA-cam Bugs Bunny - "Herr Meets Hare" Frame 1:14. Bugs tunnels into the Black Forest only to find Goring rabbit hunting instead of Elmer Fudd. It has a great surprise ending. ua-cam.com/video/A4xjnCut8PM/v-deo.html
It was one of Bugs' more common catchphrases. The WB cartoonists would have him tunnel up in some oddball place and say "I knew I should have taken that left turn..." Some other BB cartoons with this line: My Bunny Lies Over the Sea (where he ends up in Scotland), Ali Baba Bunny (the Arabian Desert).
Nearly all the war time cartoons are banned from public airwaves as they have racial/ ethnic stereotypes, ie, Japanese called Japs, Nips,Tojo and wear thick glasses. I too watched them 50-ish yrs ago & I'm ok with them, I can tell Fact from Propaganda 99+% of the time.
Reminds me of that old joke of a radio conversation in a mist. "Please change course to avoid collision." "No, you change course." "Uhm, no, you change course." "This is the [insert impressive ship name and class] of the US navy, you change course." "This is a lighthouse."
lol i have heard a version of it saying "this is USS Something, US carrier, escorted by 3 cruisers, 5 destroyers and 8 frigates, you change course".... " This is light house X, i am Pedro, Juan is cooking and the canary is too depress to sing anything, so you change course or we invite you to make us comapany"..... US ships changing course.....
When the two year old battleship HMS Montague steamed at full speed into Lundy Island in fog in 1906 the Captain assumed they had hit Hartland Point many miles to the south so it is said that the officer sent ashore accused the keeper of Lundy South Light of not knowing which lighthouse he was in charge of.
my grandfather Ernest C. Porter had the salvage rights to the destroyers. he donated one of the propellers off the delphi for a memorial at lompoc ca. i have some photos of it being loaded onto a flat bed trailer that the air force sent to his home in atascadero california just before the dedication. the bell hung off his house from the delphi until he passed away and the home was sold the bell was removed. i have a name plate off the chauncey that he gave me also some brass valve pieces and pipe that he had made for a bird feeder that was outside his dining room window. i use it as a patio table.
If you’re interested, Google Books has a book about this incident called “Tragedy at Honda”, co-written by Charles Lockwood (as in the admiral who was in charge of submarines in the Pacific during World War II). If you can get past the overly dramatic opening and closing chapters, it provides a pretty good history of the incident.
The original USS Albuquerque was a frigate/gunboat made in 1943. In 1945 it was loaned to the Russians, who returned it in 1949. It was then sold to Japan in 1953 and returned again in 1971.
classic title ref... but at least some officer was publicly held personally responsible... tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WrongTurnAtAlbuquerque ua-cam.com/video/aSMZnWIJRCg/v-deo.html
I think the fact that there was a discrepancy between his dead reckoning and the navigation beacons should have alerted him to the fact that there was a possible problem. And, like squadron 12, he should have slowed down to assess the situation. The fact that he dismissed the beacons information because he believed it was unproven technology was, I believe, the wrong decision. For one thing he could have provided useful information to help prove that either the technology worked or that it needed further work. As it turned out it did work and men died because of poor decision making.
Radio navigation was still a fairly new technology back then so people wouldn't have taken it for granted like we do. But going at relative high speed in fog with any navigation system seems unwise as there could be other ships in the area.
The screws coming out of the water due to a following sea should have been obvious and easy to time, giving the navigator a correction factor on the overall ship speed. That may have yielded only a couple of percent correction, but applied over 9 hours of cruising, that alone might have moved them a few miles down the coast, maybe just barely enough to clear Point Arguello, although not enough to clear Pint Concepcion (but at least the shore is a lot less rocky there and the ships might have been salvageable). I don't think that the accumulating radio bearing deviation from dead reckoning should have been ignored; this was a teaching experience with data screaming at them; a 50/50 question of which source was wrong, and those are not good peacetime odds to gamble your ship, let alone your squadron.
@@wb6wsn the screws coming out of the water is "an obvious and easy factor to time"?! Are you serious? Do you think that waves are even and predictable, and that screws behave consistently across different instances? Or are you suggesting someone sit there and count the screws each time? That there is some magical table for each ship to consult for "following seas & screws out of the water, cross tabulated for global location and see state"?! You have no idea, do you?
@@iatsd What hind sight. This is what the 12 squadron did. And Drach did ask us to give our own thoughts which is what I did. Maybe instead of trying to rush to you 'smart' retort you should have listened to what he asked.
Thanks for this video. I had heard of this incident referred to in several books but never got such a concise and clear explanation of what took place. Excellent work and thanks again!
Thanks for the video. My Grandfather was in the Navy in the 20's and I have his photo album and it has pictures of these destroyers. I always wondered what they were from as his markings in white are no longer legible. Now I know.
I happen to live on this particular section of the California Coast. These have been fantastically treacherous waters during the long history of naval navigation, primarily because it looks calm and sublime most of the time, but it hides a vicious beast of underwater currents that is not easily seen along with rock formations that are capable of ripping open the most sturdy hull like it was made of rice paper. People dramatically underestimate the hazards of the California Coastline all the time, even today with modern GPS. I have seen Honda point up close and how as many people survived that incident is a testament to the training the US sailors and local residents had in such operations. That incident is a major part of local history. If for some reason the GPS system went down, you'll see a ton of ships piling up on the coast again because all those skills mentioned have been lost or are so rusty that modern ship navigators are going to be making similar mistakes. Any storm off the coast here can radically alter the undercurrents and 'normal' wave activity. The Alaska current is also swift, and while more predictable, gets messed up by large storms that churn up the coastline currents. So all bets are off. I think the Court Martial came up with the appropriate answer to the issue, and while I feel for Cpt. Watson, he had no known reason to disregard the signal bearings which were in such conflict with his dead reckoning. He made the mistake of underestimating the cost of a navigational error. Had he not done so, he might have taken a second thought and did what Squadron 12 did behind him; slow down due to heavy fog/night and wait for it to clear so he could get better visual bearings during daylight. The worst he would have gotten was a chat with his superior on why he was late which he could have blamed on the exact reasons. binged.it/35h72Xh
Speaking from experience using dead reckoning, Loran, a good watch, and a compass( I stopped navigating anything well before GPS)...Even with modern Navigation aids you should be horrified at how often a ship or aircraft ends up somewhere they shouldn't be... most of the time visual clues will warn you before you make an unscheduled landing ( an abrupt landing causing massive amounts of kinetic poisoning, structural alterations, and most often an unwanted case of death...) or berth yourself snuggly against a piece of land that isn't where it should be.....In one training mission, involving practicing for a mock leak at a local reactor... I managed to put the Civil Air Patrol Cessna I was navigating for into an area the exercise marked as lethally radiated...So I ended up having to be "decontaminated and Processed", carried away and used as a practice "Casualty" for the ground teams... Standing in your shorts in a crisp March breeze, and being scrubbed down by the very enthusiastic guys with the hose and brushes was a pretty good reminder to adjust for lateral drift more carefully.
That brings up the question about what sort of redundancies and cross checks that modern navigators have. If your GPS unit suddenly went on the fritz, have you been keeping track with other methods, including Dead Reckoning? These days, does anyone still know how to use a sextant and chronometer?
@@philperry4699 For larger military equipment (ships and aircraft), the GPS is paired with an inertial navigation system, the former feeding drift corrections into the latter. If the GPS drops out (interference, jamming, or satellites suffering from rapid unplanned disassembly), you still have an INS to work with, just need someone competent to feed in the drift corrections manually.
From Albuquerque New Mexico, THANK YOU. GPS, is not all most think it is. I live just outside of city limits. When family members were visiting. My niece went to calibrate her GPS.... GPS would not calibrate. Her reply, to me was.... Uncle you are not on earth ! No kidding, this is New Mexico. Here in New Mexico trusting GPS, can have very serious consequences. I salute Captain Watson, He took responsibility. Standing tall, taking Responsibility, setting the example. He earned my respect.
Many years ago I was fishing in the Chesapeake Bay when Fidel Castro decided to shot down a small airplane which resulted in someone hitting the scramble button on the GPS satellite information and instead of my GPS reporting my location just off the “Gas Docks” my GPS showed I was now in down town Philadelphia, and then a short while later off the coast of Delaware, and later of the coast of Ocean City, MD, however my LORAN C never flickered a inch to my location. While all of this distorting of GPS data was occurring the VHF radio was buzzing with weekend warriors calling the Coast Guard for radio location fixes. Of course the fact that east coast GPS signal being scrambled was denied for more than a day. As a side note this OC courted shortly before before LORAN C was scheduled to be shut down for the first time because it was “redundant” and your best possible location accurately being reported by GPS with a differential antenna as about the size of a football field which again was the Federal Goverment serving the world Bovine Manure sandwich and saying enjoy because during the first Gulf War the US Army purchased thousands of hand held GPS units for troops on the ground and turned off all error algorithms so all during Desert Shield and Desert Storm any GPS in the world had less than 1 meter accuracy.
You happen to be near Loving/Carlsbad? Cause there is an area of the Permian Basin where GPS just doesn't work, there is no cell phone service, and you can be as much as 10 miles from either...
My grandfather was a BMC on the Chauncy! I have a few pictures of it on my wall taken during (I think) it's shakedown/sea trials period and later pierside in Honolulu, best guess around 1919. I don't think he was still stationed on it at the time of the grounding though.
I served aboard USS Young's successor, USS John Young (DD-973) in the early '80s. I was aware of the loss of the first Young at Honda Point, but I wasn't aware of the circumstances leading up to the incident. Thank you for sharing your insight with us!
OMFG I am WAY too happy that you did this segment!! Literally squealed with excitement at the butt-crack of dawn in a highly inappropriate manner the moment I saw the update, and it so lived up to everything I had been hoping for. 🥰 This was awesome, you are awesome, and you totally made my entire week. I hope you cover more stuff like this, like the Birkenhead drill, because the way you narrate is entertaining, engaging and informative in a manner that is easy to both follow and understand is not always easy to do, especially with something as specific as your chosen subject matter.
Great video, and with the bonus of having provided a nice brush-up on my somewhat faded navigational lessons. Now to the minor quibble dept. In 1923, San Diego was not the base of the "Pacific Fleet" as stated on the video at 5:00, but rather home of "Destroyer Squadrons, Battle Fleet". What later came to be called the "Pacific Fleet" was, in 1923, known as the "United States Battle Fleet" with battleships based in San Pedro and destroyers based in San Diego. In 1941, the fleet was reorganized and renamed as the "Pacific Fleet".
Wolfeson28 Didn’t the Byzantines literally just gather a bunch of logs and used them to roll an entire fleet to a nearby lake sometime during the first crusade?
Last time I was this early.....Richelieu was still under construction. Anyway.....fantastic way to start my work week, I always love the Wednesday uploads. Heck I love everything Drach post. I would like to point out that "only" 23 Officers and Sailors died during the disaster. Thats a remarkably low number and reflects greatly on the discipline, courage and skill of the men crewing those Destroyers. It would have been interesting had the Navy just left the wrecks in place after stripping them. Though I'm sure if they had, by the 50s very little would have been visible. Lastly....a movie about the Honda point disaster would be a surprise, but a welcome one indeed.
Actually there are still bits and pieces of the wrecks there. However the shoals are notoriously hazardous with very small changes in wave height and tide level changing the water from calm to breaking surf in a few minutes so that you reall can't visit the area.
I have been helmsman on a Gearing class destroyer while we only had one screw and were riding out a typhoon. Holding position was tricky as I had to hold 10 degree starboard rudder to maintain a straight course. This was off Vietnam. The court appears to have distrusted “newfangled “ equipment from the light sentences.
Having seen how distrust of newfangled technology played into the battles of Savo Island, as soon as the beacons were mentioned I knew how that part of the disaster would play out.
Don't forget the USN refusing to fix the torpedo issue until November 1943. WWII would have ended much sooner if not for that 2 year long wild goose chase. Nimitz also knew there were problems yet he did nothing and let it get worse and worse.
That moment when the humvee in front of you slams on its brakes for seemingly no reason and the driver behind you isn't paying attention, nor is the next.. or the one behind him.. and so on..
That happened to me on I 15 a few years ago, in December, after dark. Was cruising along in a mostly empty lane the second from the left, all the ones to the right were packed full and almost stationary, when somebody pulls out in front of me from the right and stops dead in the road. I stand on the brake pedal and come within inches of hitting him. I look to my dad in the passenger seat and was just about to say 'that was close' when BAM.... BAM, I get rear ended and the guy behind me gets rear ended. Long story short, I ended up driving another 50 miles after dark in December without a back window, and I was the only one out of that little pile up to not get a ticket.
@@McSkumm in the UK in those situations it's similar, all the cars behind get a ticket, you were driving well, with due care, with a sufficient gap between you and the car in front, everyone behind you was negligent on one or both of the previous points so at fault 😊
@@McSkumm SAME STORY. But in an ice storm. I actually had 10-15 seconds to look in my rear view window and just watch them coming.... and coming... and coming... notice the first is on her cellphone.... still coming.... oh look, a expression of shock on her face. Brace for the G's, this will not hurt. BAM BANG BAM BANG BAM BANG. Went sliding everywhere. 3 cars totaled but because of the ice, the fact her grand am submarined under my bumper & I had let off the brakes I left with only a scratch. We were both heading to Buffalo Wild Wings so she covered my meal and a couple IPAs. I think I came out on top, honestly.
I don't think I've left a comment and I enjoy the channel. But man, after the Saga of the Kamchatka I realize that your sense of humor, even in grim circumstance aboard of explosions, sinkings and at least 10 pairs of binoculars really makes me laugh. I think a disaster series or dry dock is in order. is in order.
Seventy five years ago, I heard this story in Raymond, WA. Our police chief, Truman Suwaze, was captain of one of the destroyers that did not run aground. Allegedly, he tried to convince his commander of the navigaation error, but was told to follow orders. He was court martialled.
What an excellent lesson on navigation, the source of errors and the blind trust in yourself! I wasn't aware of this incident so thank you for sharing.
A minor quibble with your explanation of dead reckoning at 2:45. In maritime navigation, you would never normally convert knots to the much less useful miles per hour. At 20 knots, you cover 50 nautical miles in 2.5 hours. The direct relationship between latitude and the nautical mile (1 nm per minute of latitude) is quite fundamental to maritime navigation. I'm not certain of the specifics of the charts used by the US Navy around that time, but I would be very surprised if there was any need to use something other than nautical miles (excepting chains and cables for very short distance, which are just subdivisions of a nautical mile). Anyway, it's an interesting story which you told well. It reminds me a little of the Royal Navy's Battle of May Island on 31 Jan 1918.
My dad's destroyer USS Samuel N Moore was known as "Rammin Sammy" because she kept hitting buoys, junks, slamming the wharfs and bumping other destroyers in the squadron, regardless of who was at the con. They all had ball caps with the nickname embroidered on the back. She wasn't a jinxed ship, having the highest scores in the division and numerous battle stars. It was just her thing, bouncing around like a full figured gal.
The first visual that entered my thoughts was the scene from the Classic movie Animal House. At the end of the movie, the character Stork grabs the baton of a marching band Leader, and proceeds to make a 90° turn to Port, march the band down an alley, where they all plow into a brick wall. One of the last scenes of the movie finds the aforementioned band STILL attempting to march, with their now destroyed brass section continuing to play. Reminds me of that "Fail" sound when a contestant loses on the American game show, The Price is Right. Certainly not a Naval analogy, but, silly nonetheless.
Once again Drac you bring a little known piece of history that very few people know about in this day of ages!!!. A real good book about this is flush deck's and four pipes!. It is possiblity the best book on the flush deck destroyer's of the U.S. Navy!. The book also cover's the fifty flush deckers that were given to the Royal Navy from Lend Lease!. A must read book!.
Thanks very much! I am fascinated by this disaster. I observe it everyyear,and have read onon tsubject at length! This place covers everything I have read, including navigation errors very well. Thanks. I enjoyed this information Thoroughly.
@@richardcline1337 One of the first things taught in boot camp in the Navy is that the person in charge has the responsibility for the safety and security of those under him, or her. Authority to issue commands and such may be delegated to someone of lesser responsibility, however the overall responsibility remains with the person in charge. As it was was phrased in training, Authority may be delegated, Responsibility may not be delegated.
6:41 & 7:45 show me that this was entirely preventable. Heavy fog, lack of lighthouse navigation, ignoring questionable heading readings when compared to other methods and high speeds? I mean, it's not like they were operating out in the middle of the pacific. They knew they were close to land. To ignore all these potential dangers and warnings and full steam ahead at night/heavy fog without a thought otherwise when doing so was potentially hazardous even in the best of times makes me wonder what the hell Watson was thinking... and given this was his first command of multiple ships... Well... I mean, accidents happen. But this was an avoidable one. And unfortunately 23 men died for no good reason because of gross negligence.
I’m from that area of CA, I’m from Lompoc, CA. The Honda Point disaster is a well told story!! Awesome job!! As kids, we were told the Honda Point story all the time. I ended up serving 15 years in the US Navy as a Damage Controlman!
There is a great book about this incident by Charles Lockwood, who was among other things the Admiral in charge of US submarines in WWII. Still in print, it can be found at www.amazon.com/Tragedy-Honda-Annotated-Charles-Lockwood-ebook/dp/B07MHH61BG/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=tragedy+at+honda&qid=1574383333&sr=8-1
Excellent video! It makes one realise how rudimentary our methods of navigation were when even jet passenger liners navigated using the stars up to and including the 1960s.
Thanks for this video. Surprisingly I've never looked at the naval side of this incident. I have long been familiar with this incident through being a railway enthusiast. It is well documented in one of my books on the Southern Pacific's Coast Line.
Hey Drach, I think that painting you show first, of the large 18th Century warship sinking during the night and firing a couple of guns, is actually the VICTORY (not Nelson's but the previous one). She was rather top heavy and overwhelmed by a storm, sinking in deep water and not actually running aground as had been thought. The wreck was located not too many years ago.
My dad was AF and was stationed at Vandenburg AFB, where they launch rockets. When we were there when I was a kid (early 80s), there were still pieces of wreckage visible on the rocks.
Sounds like a classic case of an inoperative Crew Resource Management situation experienced on an aircraft. Many a plane has hit terrain because the captain had not considered the thoughts and concerns of their lower ranked crew member and simply disregarded them believing their ego was right. Seems the same happened here. It appears many felt there were anomalies in the data yet the Commander did not appear to listen to concerns raised or because of the levels of hierarchy, had not been advised. Would I be correct to presume in the modern navy all ranks are now encouraged to voice their concerns if such a situation would arise again?
It's kind of worse in some ways, there's been a number of high profile collisions between USN ships and merchants. Training is poor/incomplete, bad, degraded equipment and different RTW rules between merchant and USN complicate matters. The articles touch on some of the issues lightly and don't quite go into the fuller extent of the problems. www.cnn.com/2017/08/21/politics/navy-ships-crashing-readiness/index.html www.cnn.com/2017/11/01/politics/navy-fitzgerald-mccain-collisions-report-avoidable/index.html
5:57 An interesting picture of USS Delphy, particularly the background. In the distance, we can see three cage masts... dreadnaught battleships at anchor, and closer still the masting and rigging of a sailing ship. Since that wind-powered ship has fighting tops and the location is Boston Harbor it must be USS Constitution.
It was the US Navy, any other Navy in the world they would have been dishonorably discharged. That also explains why the people in charge of the torpedo ordinance bureau in World War II did not die in federal prison
I just saw something about the destroyer squadron that was involved earlier today. Now i get home and right on cue Drach has a video on it. Its like you read my mind!
I spent 4 years in the U.S.Navy, and after spending 1 year in West PACK and on the way back to the U.S. the largest wave"s was off of San Nickolas Island, the till indicator reads 49 degrees! and that got my attention. The ship I was on was a MSO 489 and made of wood.
In following military history most of my life, I've never heard of this calamity until Drachinifel let me know about it. Just another reason I've become a devoted follower of his site.
Pinned post for Q&A :)
Would naval landing in Peral Harbor ( and taking it ) after air atack with supporting battleships have significant impact in war in pacific ?
Could you do a 5 minute guide about the SS Delphine? The Dodge family steam ship. It's for sale right now! Also, could you talk about her quadruple expansion engines?
Is the MV Liemba, formerly known as the Graf von Goetzen on the list?
The history of the battle for lake Tanganyika is pretty interesting in itself, covering an often completely unknown aspect of WWI, and the fact that the ship is still in service today quite astonishing.
How would the 2nd Battle of Guadalcanal have gone like had the japanese sent Yamato to reinforce admiral Kondo's force following the loss of Hiei?
Related to this video: what was the state of ship-to-shore communications in this time frame?
Fletchers would have just gotten angry and the Johnston would’ve sunk California.
the question is could the Johnston be able to defeat the all powerful Canadian Lighthouse.
Well said, Shojikitsune! My dad, God rest his soul, would have agreed wholeheartedly with you! Fletcher, and her sisters, could take a licking and keep on ticking!
California needs to be sunk.
The lighthouse would move out of the Johnston's way.
@@roybaker6902 Will that be San Andreas' Fault...?
"We lost seven Clemson class destroyers!!"
Us Navy: " *Sigh* Alright get the spares."
"Oh no! Anyway..."
@@Self-replicating_whatnot Those destroyers weren't that bad...Of cours they weren't the greatest destroyers ever but the best thing was there was something like 200+ Wickes/Clemson destroyers built so they were very expendable. They more than earned their investment by being available in 1940-42 for the Royal Navy/USN before the USN were able to massively build a bunch of better destroyers starting in 1943.
People: how do whales end up beaching themselves?
US Navy: *rams California with a half-dozen destroyers* Dunno, strangest thing really.
In the destroyers case it was the first of many doses of L.S.D. secretly slipped into the drinking water.. hey California
Funny that you link this incident to whale beaching - because Navies DO have to do with that:
Warships high-powered active sonars can destroy whales biological sonar receivers (if you don't know: whales use biological sonar for navigation) if they are close enough. Thus irreparably blinded these whales are doomed. This information is not shared around much, because it would question Navies use of active sonar - and for obvious reasons this would be very detrimental to a Navies capabilities.
It is a tragic shame though, because whales might be the only other intelligent live-form we share this planet with...
@A Simple Mohave Desert Tortoise I am actually happy to hear there have been actions taken already, even though they degrade our Navies capabilities (I am German, btw). It would be a tragedy if we would kill off all whales before we get a chance to learn to communicate with them. They are quite likely just as intelligent as we are, because they clearly show logical thinking that exceeds way beyond instincts.
Heck, they are propably dead anyway with the global warming getting out of control. :,(
@@dasmorbo3508 The world is not warming. Its actually cooling. Check your facts!
@CreedOfHeresy They care more than the Americans. See comment below yours.
Ghost of _Kamchatka_ : "Japanese torpedo rocks!"
Out of ammo, going to ram!
*sigh* if it's not Japanese stealth torpedo boats or Japanese stealth Judy's, then it's Japanese stealth earthquakes. #and-then-it-got-annoying.
LMAO!
It’s like an American Anti-Tank Rock
If only the Kamchatka had run aground there first. She would have never allowed those American torpedo boats to come anywhere close.
Or that other steam ship, or a fishing boat, or floating debris, or...
I have actually dove on these wrecks, the shore entry was rough and the exit was even more hazardous ( only a couple days a year it’s “calm” enough to enter ).The underwater ground was barren hard rock and the ships had been salvaged down to a little below the water line. Only item I salvaged was a brass blow tube cover which I never cleaned and have today. I believe it is now off limits to diving due to hazardous area and being directly off the coast of Vandenberg Air Force missile base. I do remember seeing a large pile of ammunition crusted together that I tried to pry a large shell off of before I thought to myself WtH am I’m doing. My diving partner and I where almost unable to reach shore and while clinging to rocks we declared each on there own. We both made it and never tried again. Those were good times when we were young and diving fools. Happy memories, Thanks for the video.
Your description of the shoreline and sea condition is exactly what I recall. There was an attempt by a group of US Navy divers from San Diego to repair a communications line just offshore that had failed. The divers were in the water for a short time before returning to their vessel saying the currents there made condition simply too dangerous to work in. There are two major currents that meet at Honda Point. On from the south (Baja Flow) is a warm water current and it meets the cold from the north(Aleutian/Japanese). Not only are there two physical hydraulic-forces there but the thermal variations there add to the turbulence in those waters. Honda Point has some of the most dangerous waters to work in or deal with.
Crusty Mole Glad you thought about it in time.
"Wait a second... I'm handling unexploded ordinance inside a wreck near dangerous shoals..."
*Life choice reevaluating noises*
@@kumaflamewar6524 To be fair letting go of the ordinance *probably* saved his life there.
Not off limits to China though. Biden told them that they're welcome to come take anything they would like.
Surely doing 20 knots in fog in a known danger area, with only dead reckoning for navigation, is asking for trouble?
You forgot “when your fancy new navigational system says you aren’t where you aren’t where you think you are”
The idea that night was to simulate a mission calling on DesRon 11 to make 20 knots to relieve other destroyers under attack. If they had depended on the RDF readings and stayed even just a mile more offshore, the squadron would have passed the rocks without incident. Since part of the reason for this exercise was to practice with the RDF, ignoring the data was ignoring the whole reason for the exercise. I don't buy the whole Japanese Earthquake theory. It was a failure in standard navigational techniques that the RDF was supposed to compensate for. 20 knots on a cloudy, foggy night with rough seas was already a risk. The Commodore should have slowed his ships and headed west until they could determine why the RDF readings were so much different than the positions provided by dead reckoning.
@@sarjim4381 Yes. What was the commander's further career,I wonder. Drach states he was stripped of seniority. Given the loss of materiel and of life,it would seem to me he should have had his commission vacated. Regardless of his honourable willingness to take full responsibility. Bad decisions in peacetime are bad enough. As a wartime training exercise,it demonstrated the man's inability to make good decisions at time of need. At least in my opinion. I do know that early in his career, Nimitz ran a ship aground,usually a career ending move. Mistakes are infinite.
Doing the right thing after an oopsie is what separates leaders from REMF types.
Do we have somewhere in the electronic information world to determine the rest of the commander's life ?
@@paulmanson253 Wikipedia is your friend - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_H._Watson#Post-Honda_Point_career_and_retirement
@@sarjim4381 The earthquake caused problems with properly accounting for currents and seas which made dead reckoning much more difficult. Ignoring the RDF plots because they indicated your dead reckoning is wrong was a gross stupidity even if the RDF systems were crude by modern standards. It is just like going out in a fog today and getting confused while ignoring your GPS position on your phone because the GPS has to wrong. The fact that other squadrons used the RDF information as a check and realized something was wrong indicates who had the problem.
You can tell the navy has adequate reserves when you can just activate a replacement DESRON worth of hulls.... without significantly reducing your reserve fleet
This was a valuable lesson ... and the force was operating in austere conditions. ..
By being able to suffer such losses you can allow your navy to gain the experience and confidence that they will need in wartime
The men behaved bravely and rescue efforts were carried out in a commendable manner...
The force commander proved he was made of the correct moral fibre by taking the full and complete blame for the incident and no others had their careers ruined....
The loss of life being the real tragedy
Some words of wisdom which received confirmation (yet again) at Honda point:
1) Good judgement comes from experience, but experience comes from bad judgement.
2) A true expert is a professional who has commited every immaginable error within his field.
3) If you don't pay the toll on the bridge you will pay it on a ferry
4) War requires 3 things:
1. money
2. money
3. and money.
The Force Commander was a true Officer and Gentleman in the finest tradition of yhe US Navy.
Very well said. It blew my mind to hear that the squadron commander took responsibility, that is so damned rare!
Yes that stood out to me during the episode. Just how proactive the crews were in getting themselves to safety, and assisting those around them at the same time. At least the navy could be confident that part of their training was adequate.
@J The buck stops anywhere but on his desk.
Cpt on second destroyer: "Did you just hear a crunch?"
Cpt on third destroyer: "Did you just hear a couple crunches?"
And so on and so forth
@Sparky Puddins
I think his title would be "destroyer destroyer crunch, supreme leader of the Californian coastline."
Ghost ship of the Kamchatka, thinking the destroyer flotilla is the Second Pacific squadron: "do you see torpedo boats?"
Reminds me of a Harry Dresden book..... "hey, weren't there 7 of you a minute ago..." 😁
Cap'n Crunch, ""It's got rocks for crunch, waves for punch, and it stays crunchy, until you pay attention to the Radio Direction Finder, and alter course accordingly."
The Lemming-train is real.
yeah but if you follow the train you have a better chance to live, just play war thunder
Notser’s worst nightmare!
The lemming train to this mans ad revenue, stop supporting stupid people.
lololol
at least they didn't stand in the fire
You know somethings gone horribly wrong when an officer can be justifiably commended for not running his ship aground.
Yea, I'm inclined to call this a case of 'damning with faint praise'...
It shows a Capt who saw and recognized the threat AND had the intestinal fortitude to disregard orders and to break ranks, thus leading the remainder of the squadron out of harm’s way. Breaking ranks is the same as disobeying a superior’s orders. Those are very serious, career destroying actions IF the officer in question turns out to have been in error.....
Remember, the sea going services of all nations are noted for “eating their young”!
@@living2ndchildhood347 Yeah but the situation still sucks.
@@living2ndchildhood347 "...intestinal fortitude..." Translation: "He didn't shit his pants."
The American “Running aground in your own waters” Club really isn’t doing itself any favors here
Hey, we have alot of waters to do it in.
52% of all accidents occur within 5 miles of home
@@JacobSw6564 48% occur at home.
@@readhistory2023 most "happy little accidents" occur at home
But it is only an offshoot of the British running aground in your own waters club. Which at least puts them in good company.
Ah yes. A "slight navigation error"
The error was slight, the consequences disastrous.
Alex Gingell was a the navigating officer an Ensign Philips?
Norbert Blackrain it's not known as dead reckoning for nothing.
@@neildahlgaard-sigsworth3819 :-) Great .. :-))
Even in "modern" times, navigation errors happen. I was on the USS Enterprise in 1983 when she ran aground in plain view of San Fran and Oakland a mile from the pier after passing under the Oakland Bay Bridge. One factor was the Navigator miscalculated the flood tide at 0.5 knots but was actually 1.5 knots. The Captain was conning the ship at the time but was already selected for Admiral. The Board of Inquiry did not blame the Captain enough to stop the promotion and he became an Admiral (note: he was an aviator so not sure how much that was a factor for keeping the promotion).
I left her in March 1984. Not too long after that, the Big E was doing flight ops off San Dieago. The bridge crew were so cocerned over maintaining wind speed over the deck for flight ops that no one notice their track was heading them into the shoals known as Castle Rock. Yes, she hit the shoals which caused the side tanks to spill JP5 and take on seawater. While in no danger of sinking, the repairs were not minor and she spent time in drydock at the Bremerton Naval Shipyard in thr Puget Sound. In this case the Captain, yes, an aviator too, was relieved of command.
All Carrier type ships in the USN are commanded by Aviation Officers. This goes back to the days when commanding a Battleship was the pinnacle of ship command. Carriers were support ships back then and beneath the dignity of a true combat captain, plus those aviation guys know better what conditions they want to fly in so we'll give them those ships. The Aviations guys decided not to give their ships back to the surface guys after they lost all their Battleships.
My Ex watched this event from shore while waiting for her first husband that was on board. (Evenhuis, chain & chock crew, always in trouble)
Large navy ships usually picked up pilot officer when entering a tricky harbor (which SF Bay definitely is). The pilot is an expert on the area being traveled and can guide the unfamiliar ship over the sandbars and away from the rocks while entering or leaving.
@@landtuna8061 Yes, we did. But on US Navy ships, Harbor Pilots can only give advice.. In this case the Harbor Pilot was telling the Captain, who wss conning the ship, he had to turn earlier than the nav plot. The Captain eventually did but it was still too late.
My sister was stationed there when that happened. The navy called them, they showed up in their little patrol boats asking “...and do what?”
So you're telling me the US Navy slapstick-crashed seven whole destroyers into the California coastline in rapid succession?
I'm both surprised and not at all surprised that I've never heard this story before.
It's the same Navy that build hundreds of Torpedos without testing them...
Wow talk about nostalgia, my great grandparents were the lighthouse keepers during this incident and assisted with some of the rescue . they retired on Friday harbor island Washington after their last posting there. I remember my great grandmother had a huge panoramic black and white photo of the wrecked destroyers.
Are you telling me that eartquake in japan have destroyed more ship than the entire italian navy in ww2?
To be fair the Italians had no fuel for their ships the minute they allied with Germany and fell under the English blockade. With the exception of a couple submarines, their entire navy sat in port most of the war.
Now I'm curious who sunk more ships, the Italian Navy or the French Navy, during WWII.
@@BrettonFerguson the french just surrendered before they could send out the fleet
Hmm, do we count the Free French Fleet in this?
Please look up MAS. They were quite active.
@William Signs Lmao Gilligan's Island
In the '80s USN ships still were equipped with DRAI (Dead-Reckoning Analyzer/Indicator), which took inputs from the Mk-19 Gyrocompass and the ship's underwater log (the speedometer) and produced a latitude/longitude output on the unit itself, as well as sending an output to the plotting tables in the control room/CIC/navigation bridge (depending on the type of ship).
After getting a NavSat fix and determining our exact position, it was necessary to reset the DRAI to get all of the navigation team back onto the correct position. It was sometimes amazing how wildly off the DRAI navigation was. Of course, there were other methods of determining our true position in the interim (we had an, at the time, pretty advanced Inertial-navigation system that could sense drift and speed) but the DRAI was the only equipment that could run the plotting tables, so it was a critical piece of gear.
Our navigation team were pretty sharp concerning known currents, water depths and other factors that can help fix a true position, skills that I fear may be lost with an overdependence on GPS.
I hope that all mariners, both Navy and Merchant, continue to hone their skills in old-school navigation.................................................
I had a 1st Sergeant in the Army that grilled us on navigation/map reading skills because he didn't like how dependent we'd become on GPS. He always said knowing how to read a simple compass, shoot an azimuth, and find your position on a map should be second nature to ANY ground-pounder. Speaking of old school, a friend at work served on the USS Missouri during the Gulf War. He said they used the old firing solution mechanical computers after main battery firing had knocked out their electronics; they worked flawlessly. It's a matter of finding balance between old, proven techniques that'll always be available and incorporating new technology without completely abandoning the former.
@@tomservo5347 Exactly. If destroying GPS satelites will cripple US forces' navigation then someone would want to shoot those down.
Was a QM on Tin Cans (4yrs) & a Reserve Submariner in the sixties. I remember teaching Midshipmen celestial nav which seemed to be a lot art by the late 1980's
@@jacevicki I learned how to do map & compass land nav when I was in the Boy Scouts and I’ve gotten very good at it as a cadet. Never got taught how to use a GPS, and I don’t think ROTC will.
There are other forgotten arts. Sounding weights had a wax (?) bottom so they could pick up bottom crud, which was noted on coastal / shallow charts. Other information noted was smells and water color, maybe depending on season and time of day and tides, and explorers drew coastal scenes from deck height with angles to various land sights, like cliffs, rocks, big trees, buildings, anything which stood out. There's a whole lot of ancient information which no one knows or tracks any more. Egyptian farmers probably knew more about the night sky than kids today know about pop stars; it has very little practical use today, and I doubt anyone, including modern Egyptian farmers, knows anywhere near as much now.
Worrying about lost knowledge is fine for history books. But if it were useful, it wouldn't be lost knowledge. There's a difference between useful and interesting.
Phew, Kennedy really dodged a bullet there.
*golfclap*
The last time that sentence was used
And then there was that incident of mis-navigating from land into water, instead water into land.
Saw them in concert....ouch
Too soon.
Very interesting video, and I cannot help to remember what my father said in one discussion we had about GPS.
Background is that he went to sea in 1957 at the age of 15, joining a Swedish merchant and spending 10 years, eventually meeting my mother when he was attending the Officer Cadet School to become a Captain. at that time leaving the seas and getting a land education and job.
The discussion we had was around the way to navigate old school vs. GPS or similar modern methods, and his words was something like this:
"No one can understand the tension and nervousness on a bridge, when at 3 AM in poor weather the ship is closing in on the coast of Newfoundland, and you have not had a sun height for days so you go only by dead reckoning. Suddenly you see a light in the distant that, according to your estimated position, THERE SHOULD NOT BE ANY!"
WOW, what a fine video - and quite meaningful for me, thank you! I grew up in Santa Barbara County, and while I'm in my 40s now, I visited Honda point many, many times in my childhood through my 20s. It was/is a very lovely, lonely, rocky area with an angry sea, it wasn't uncommon to see 15 foot swells and waves making spectacular splashes against the rocks. Being on Vandenberg AFB, the entire scene was set against the spectacular SLCs (Space Launch Complexes) that were readying for the West Coast launches of the space shuttle in the late 80s (which never occurred after the Challenger disaster). The rusted keels of a couple of the ships could still be easily seen in the late 80s and early 90s. Being in the pre-internet days, I never could find much info on the disaster other than a few blurbs in military encyclopedias, and those entries pretty much just restated what was on the memorial Plaque at Honda point. I moved away in the mid-90s and forgot all about Honda Pt, until I happened upon the video today. Hearing the full story from you was WONDERFUL and answered all those questions I had in my childhood that I had forgotten about....thanks again!
One of the odd bonuses of working the swing shift is still being awake when Drach uploads a video.
As a retired QMC, USCG; I can understand how such a disaster can occur. There’s 2 things that stand out: each Capt is responsible for the safe navigation of his own vessel and the regs require Capt’s to make use of ALL available means to safely navigate.
With that being said: I still do not fully trust US Naval Hydrographic charts as I have simultaneously used three different methods of positioning and came up with 3 distinctly different positions.
There are many things that come up that contribute to such a disaster. It is not just 1 error but a chain of errors that led to the final end result.
Sometimes, shit happens!
So you are saying we need better charts?
I’m saying I don’t fully trust US Naval Hydrographic charts. I found NOAA charts, British Admiralty charts, & Canadian charts to be excellent!
@@living2ndchildhood347 I agree, but I don't know why they should be as inaccurate as they seem.
Charts and dead reckoning need to be used, as well as, visual aids. The fog could have played a part, but then move further out to sea to the West, south west, for error.
Thanks QMC for your service! Retired GMC Navy.
As Navigator on USS BATAAN in '03, I conducted training for the ship's wardroom on this event. A lesson in what not to do while in formation.
Im glad we could at least learn from the incident. We it it to the dead crew members
Thank you for your service Sir.
Robert Adamcik A question, sir. If a Captain is following in formation, and can see that the formation is headed for unintended land fall... Can he break formation thus disobeying orders?
@@samiam619, yes if it means keeping his ship safe. One of the COs in this case was taken to court-martial for failing to follow the guide, but was acquitted.
Legitpenguins69 “owe”
As a Former RN Navigator (specialising in coastal waters) I would also point out that while Radio beacons are great for measuring distance they are pretty poor at producing an accurate bearing and normally when using beacons we would draw a circle around the locations of multiple detected beacons on the chart with the reported ranges of the beacons being the radius of the circles a minimum of three seperate beacons should be used and you should plot where these circles intersect (they never will perfectly and you end up with a small triangle on the chart that you are somewhere inside and it is good practice to assume that within the triangle you are at the point closest to danger this inherent issue with radio beacons is allot worse in bad weather especially in fog this was an inherent problem in radio beacon systems that didnt really get solved until the advent of GPS and the captain was right to not fully trust the beacons however he should have trusted them a damn site more than dead reckoning
Been trying to get The History Guy to do this story. Thank you Drach. Young people are stunned when I bring this up.
ok boomer
I'm 38 and huge naval buff, and only learned about it through the good graces of getting lost on wikipedia one night about 8 years ago. I was stunned!
@@EricDKaufman My first was picking up library book called " Tragedy at Honda" by Admiral Charles Lockwood. Which I'm sure is way out of print now.
@@EricDKaufman There's a lot of really bad history regarding the USN...and part of me thinks disasters and crushing defeats are why people like to make younger people dumber and dumber with each passing generation so they don't have to talk about the bad parts of their history.
Guy I work with served on a frigate during the 80's. He said their new captain ran them aground on a sandbar his first day. He said it collapsed the sonar dome on the front and he and his engine room colleagues had to stay on station for nearly two days doing nothing but changing out screens for the water intake line as they would plug up with sand almost instantly. It took two ships to pull them out. The captain never saw the deck of a ship again, while it was good for the crew because they spent a month in dry dock for repairs with shore leave.
My late Uncle, a Signals Officer in WW2, claimed the greatest contribution of RADAR in WW2 was keeping the amateur sailors of the USNR from running aground more often. Geoff Who does not doubt it.
These happened to be regular officers of the USN who I suppose have benefited from radar also. Don't forget that Chester Nimitz ran his first command (a destroyer) aground when he was a young naval officer. It was refloated and he was forgiven.
"sir, we finally have a reason to reactivate these Clemsons!"
Sir we just lost an entire Division of Destroyers? how do we make good our losses given the Budget environment?
US Navy: Super Easy barely, inconvenience!
“Well now that you’ve told me the good news, what’s the bad news?”
As a Officer Candidate in the US Coast Guard in 1970 this was a highlight in Navigation class. This was before GPS but we did have access to LORAN which gave us an additional aid to navigation. Speed in fog near a coastline is bad juju. Trust your instruments but always take advantage of light houses. That will save your bacon. Great treatment of this accident. I remember reading a book about it 40 years ago.
Great job. May I suggest the "Battle of May Island" next? Which aside of navigational errors also involved the worst submarine design the Royal Navy ever put to sea. Where you every time you submerge flip a coin. If you lose, everyone on board dies.
"I knew I should have made a left turn at Albuquerque." Famous Bugs Bunny quote. In a Warner Bros. cartoon, Bugs tunnels underground and comes up in Germany during WW11. He gives the Nazi's hell, notably Goring and Hitler. See "Herr Meets Hare." I must have seen it 50 years ago.
was that a world war 2 era cartoon or are you pulling my leg? as i wouldn't be surprised with the propaganda from that time
See UA-cam Bugs Bunny - "Herr Meets Hare" Frame 1:14. Bugs tunnels into the Black Forest only to find Goring rabbit hunting instead of Elmer Fudd. It has a great surprise ending. ua-cam.com/video/A4xjnCut8PM/v-deo.html
It was one of Bugs' more common catchphrases. The WB cartoonists would have him tunnel up in some oddball place and say "I knew I should have taken that left turn..." Some other BB cartoons with this line: My Bunny Lies Over the Sea (where he ends up in Scotland), Ali Baba Bunny (the Arabian Desert).
Nearly all the war time cartoons are banned from public airwaves as they have racial/ ethnic stereotypes, ie, Japanese called Japs, Nips,Tojo and wear thick glasses.
I too watched them 50-ish yrs ago &
I'm ok with them, I can tell Fact from Propaganda 99+% of the time.
@@Mamorufumio its true
Reminds me of that old joke of a radio conversation in a mist.
"Please change course to avoid collision."
"No, you change course."
"Uhm, no, you change course."
"This is the [insert impressive ship name and class] of the US navy, you change course."
"This is a lighthouse."
lol i have heard a version of it saying "this is USS Something, US carrier, escorted by 3 cruisers, 5 destroyers and 8 frigates, you change course".... " This is light house X, i am Pedro, Juan is cooking and the canary is too depress to sing anything, so you change course or we invite you to make us comapany"..... US ships changing course.....
When the two year old battleship HMS Montague steamed at full speed into Lundy Island in fog in 1906 the Captain assumed they had hit Hartland Point many miles to the south so it is said that the officer sent ashore accused the keeper of Lundy South Light of not knowing which lighthouse he was in charge of.
my grandfather Ernest C. Porter had the salvage rights to the destroyers. he donated one of the propellers off the delphi for a memorial at lompoc ca. i have some photos of it being loaded onto a flat bed trailer that the air force sent to his home in atascadero california just before the dedication. the bell hung off his house from the delphi until he passed away and the home was sold the bell was removed. i have a name plate off the chauncey that he gave me also some brass valve pieces and pipe that he had made for a bird feeder that was outside his dining room window. i use it as a patio table.
Some damaged propellers are on display in Lompoc at the veterans center .
The Bell off the Young is on display at the Maritime museum in Morro Bay as well 👍
If you’re interested, Google Books has a book about this incident called “Tragedy at Honda”, co-written by Charles Lockwood (as in the admiral who was in charge of submarines in the Pacific during World War II). If you can get past the overly dramatic opening and closing chapters, it provides a pretty good history of the incident.
With the Bugs Bunny reference in the title, I quite expected one of the ships to be the USS Albuquerque.
The original USS Albuquerque was a frigate/gunboat made in 1943. In 1945 it was loaned to the Russians, who returned it in 1949. It was then sold to Japan in 1953 and returned again in 1971.
Did you notice that Pismo Beach and all the clams you can eat was right up the coast.
@Kelly Arthur But they took it to GET to Albuquerque.
classic title ref... but at least some officer was publicly held personally responsible...
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WrongTurnAtAlbuquerque
ua-cam.com/video/aSMZnWIJRCg/v-deo.html
I think the fact that there was a discrepancy between his dead reckoning and the navigation beacons should have alerted him to the fact that there was a possible problem. And, like squadron 12, he should have slowed down to assess the situation. The fact that he dismissed the beacons information because he believed it was unproven technology was, I believe, the wrong decision. For one thing he could have provided useful information to help prove that either the technology worked or that it needed further work. As it turned out it did work and men died because of poor decision making.
well done on a full deployment of hindsight. would you like a cookie?
Radio navigation was still a fairly new technology back then so people wouldn't have taken it for granted like we do. But going at relative high speed in fog with any navigation system seems unwise as there could be other ships in the area.
The screws coming out of the water due to a following sea should have been obvious and easy to time, giving the navigator a correction factor on the overall ship speed. That may have yielded only a couple of percent correction, but applied over 9 hours of cruising, that alone might have moved them a few miles down the coast, maybe just barely enough to clear Point Arguello, although not enough to clear Pint Concepcion (but at least the shore is a lot less rocky there and the ships might have been salvageable).
I don't think that the accumulating radio bearing deviation from dead reckoning should have been ignored; this was a teaching experience with data screaming at them; a 50/50 question of which source was wrong, and those are not good peacetime odds to gamble your ship, let alone your squadron.
@@wb6wsn the screws coming out of the water is "an obvious and easy factor to time"?! Are you serious? Do you think that waves are even and predictable, and that screws behave consistently across different instances? Or are you suggesting someone sit there and count the screws each time? That there is some magical table for each ship to consult for "following seas & screws out of the water, cross tabulated for global location and see state"?!
You have no idea, do you?
@@iatsd What hind sight. This is what the 12 squadron did. And Drach did ask us to give our own thoughts which is what I did. Maybe instead of trying to rush to you 'smart' retort you should have listened to what he asked.
I love fresh content in the morning! Thanks Drach!
Thanks for this video. I had heard of this incident referred to in several books but never got such a concise and clear explanation of what took place. Excellent work and thanks again!
Thanks for the video. My Grandfather was in the Navy in the 20's and I have his photo album and it has pictures of these destroyers. I always wondered what they were from as his markings in white are no longer legible. Now I know.
I happen to live on this particular section of the California Coast. These have been fantastically treacherous waters during the long history of naval navigation, primarily because it looks calm and sublime most of the time, but it hides a vicious beast of underwater currents that is not easily seen along with rock formations that are capable of ripping open the most sturdy hull like it was made of rice paper. People dramatically underestimate the hazards of the California Coastline all the time, even today with modern GPS. I have seen Honda point up close and how as many people survived that incident is a testament to the training the US sailors and local residents had in such operations. That incident is a major part of local history.
If for some reason the GPS system went down, you'll see a ton of ships piling up on the coast again because all those skills mentioned have been lost or are so rusty that modern ship navigators are going to be making similar mistakes. Any storm off the coast here can radically alter the undercurrents and 'normal' wave activity. The Alaska current is also swift, and while more predictable, gets messed up by large storms that churn up the coastline currents. So all bets are off.
I think the Court Martial came up with the appropriate answer to the issue, and while I feel for Cpt. Watson, he had no known reason to disregard the signal bearings which were in such conflict with his dead reckoning. He made the mistake of underestimating the cost of a navigational error. Had he not done so, he might have taken a second thought and did what Squadron 12 did behind him; slow down due to heavy fog/night and wait for it to clear so he could get better visual bearings during daylight. The worst he would have gotten was a chat with his superior on why he was late which he could have blamed on the exact reasons.
binged.it/35h72Xh
Speaking from experience using dead reckoning, Loran, a good watch, and a compass( I stopped navigating anything well before GPS)...Even with modern Navigation aids you should be horrified at how often a ship or aircraft ends up somewhere they shouldn't be... most of the time visual clues will warn you before you make an unscheduled landing ( an abrupt landing causing massive amounts of kinetic poisoning, structural alterations, and most often an unwanted case of death...) or berth yourself snuggly against a piece of land that isn't where it should be.....In one training mission, involving practicing for a mock leak at a local reactor... I managed to put the Civil Air Patrol Cessna I was navigating for into an area the exercise marked as lethally radiated...So I ended up having to be "decontaminated and Processed", carried away and used as a practice "Casualty" for the ground teams... Standing in your shorts in a crisp March breeze, and being scrubbed down by the very enthusiastic guys with the hose and brushes was a pretty good reminder to adjust for lateral drift more carefully.
That brings up the question about what sort of redundancies and cross checks that modern navigators have. If your GPS unit suddenly went on the fritz, have you been keeping track with other methods, including Dead Reckoning? These days, does anyone still know how to use a sextant and chronometer?
@@philperry4699 Or even a slide rule?
@@philperry4699 For larger military equipment (ships and aircraft), the GPS is paired with an inertial navigation system, the former feeding drift corrections into the latter. If the GPS drops out (interference, jamming, or satellites suffering from rapid unplanned disassembly), you still have an INS to work with, just need someone competent to feed in the drift corrections manually.
Nothing, I mean NOTHING sucks like decon!
From Albuquerque New Mexico,
THANK YOU.
GPS, is not all most think it is.
I live just outside of city limits.
When family members were visiting. My niece went to calibrate her GPS....
GPS would not calibrate. Her reply, to me was....
Uncle you are not on earth !
No kidding, this is New Mexico. Here in New Mexico trusting GPS, can have very serious consequences.
I salute Captain Watson,
He took responsibility.
Standing tall, taking Responsibility, setting the example. He earned my respect.
Ey, fellow New Mexican!
Red or green?
@@worldwar2freak12 Green.
And as I live a stones toss from the Big I, I see so many people missing their left turn....
@@worldwar2freak12 ,
GREEN !
But sometimes red goes oh so good.
😎😊
Many years ago I was fishing in the Chesapeake Bay when Fidel Castro decided to shot down a small airplane which resulted in someone hitting the scramble button on the GPS satellite information and instead of my GPS reporting my location just off the “Gas Docks” my GPS showed I was now in down town Philadelphia, and then a short while later off the coast of Delaware, and later of the coast of Ocean City, MD, however my LORAN C never flickered a inch to my location. While all of this distorting of GPS data was occurring the VHF radio was buzzing with weekend warriors calling the Coast Guard for radio location fixes. Of course the fact that east coast GPS signal being scrambled was denied for more than a day. As a side note this OC courted shortly before before LORAN C was scheduled to be shut down for the first time because it was “redundant” and your best possible location accurately being reported by GPS with a differential antenna as about the size of a football field which again was the Federal Goverment serving the world Bovine Manure sandwich and saying enjoy because during the first Gulf War the US Army purchased thousands of hand held GPS units for troops on the ground and turned off all error algorithms so all during Desert Shield and Desert Storm any GPS in the world had less than 1 meter accuracy.
You happen to be near Loving/Carlsbad? Cause there is an area of the Permian Basin where GPS just doesn't work, there is no cell phone service, and you can be as much as 10 miles from either...
My grandfather was a BMC on the Chauncy! I have a few pictures of it on my wall taken during (I think) it's shakedown/sea trials period and later pierside in Honolulu, best guess around 1919. I don't think he was still stationed on it at the time of the grounding though.
So who decided that 20 knots in a heavy fog along a rocky coastline was a good idea?
The Commander apparently! I doubt if anyone else really would have.
@@GaryNumeroUno Just stand a few miles further offshore and you’re set. Bit of a mistake, there.
RIP to the victims of Honda Point, Lest We Forget
I served aboard USS Young's successor, USS John Young (DD-973) in the early '80s. I was aware of the loss of the first Young at Honda Point, but I wasn't aware of the circumstances leading up to the incident. Thank you for sharing your insight with us!
OMFG I am WAY too happy that you did this segment!! Literally squealed with excitement at the butt-crack of dawn in a highly inappropriate manner the moment I saw the update, and it so lived up to everything I had been hoping for. 🥰 This was awesome, you are awesome, and you totally made my entire week. I hope you cover more stuff like this, like the Birkenhead drill, because the way you narrate is entertaining, engaging and informative in a manner that is easy to both follow and understand is not always easy to do, especially with something as specific as your chosen subject matter.
Great video, and with the bonus of having provided a nice brush-up on my somewhat faded navigational lessons. Now to the minor quibble dept.
In 1923, San Diego was not the base of the "Pacific Fleet" as stated on the video at 5:00, but rather home of "Destroyer Squadrons, Battle Fleet". What later came to be called the "Pacific Fleet" was, in 1923, known as the "United States Battle Fleet" with battleships based in San Pedro and destroyers based in San Diego. In 1941, the fleet was reorganized and renamed as the "Pacific Fleet".
Ah, no greater threat to a ship than the very sea it sails
Or in this case, the land it cannot sail.
Wolfeson28 Didn’t the Byzantines literally just gather a bunch of logs and used them to roll an entire fleet to a nearby lake sometime during the first crusade?
@@donpacificbobcat9er615 I think that was during a siege of Constantinople, but ya, that did happen.
@@Wolfeson28 the Ottomans also did that in Constantinople.
Thank you as always. Fascinating video, fantastically specific as always. And thank you for the recent Mers El Kebir video!
Last time I was this early.....Richelieu was still under construction.
Anyway.....fantastic way to start my work week, I always love the Wednesday uploads. Heck I love everything Drach post.
I would like to point out that "only" 23 Officers and Sailors died during the disaster. Thats a remarkably low number and reflects greatly on the discipline, courage and skill of the men crewing those Destroyers.
It would have been interesting had the Navy just left the wrecks in place after stripping them. Though I'm sure if they had, by the 50s very little would have been visible.
Lastly....a movie about the Honda point disaster would be a surprise, but a welcome one indeed.
Actually there are still bits and pieces of the wrecks there. However the shoals are notoriously hazardous with very small changes in wave height and tide level changing the water from calm to breaking surf in a few minutes so that you reall can't visit the area.
Good example of how many small factors coming together to cause chain reaction leading to chaos. Another great video!👍
Capt : "Ok Gentlemen lets speedup and get through this fog quickly."
Sounds just like a Californian!!!
But when on a highway in a whiteout, you do not slow down quickly because the guy behind you WILL catch up.
I have been helmsman on a Gearing class destroyer while we only had one screw and were riding out a typhoon. Holding position was tricky as I had to hold 10 degree starboard rudder to maintain a straight course. This was off Vietnam.
The court appears to have distrusted “newfangled “ equipment from the light sentences.
Arrogance gets expensive. The thought of "I can navigate better than those new fangled beacons" well how did that work out for you sunshine...
Having seen how distrust of newfangled technology played into the battles of Savo Island, as soon as the beacons were mentioned I knew how that part of the disaster would play out.
Don't forget the USN refusing to fix the torpedo issue until November 1943. WWII would have ended much sooner if not for that 2 year long wild goose chase. Nimitz also knew there were problems yet he did nothing and let it get worse and worse.
I grew up in Lompoc and my dad was stationed at Vandenberg AFB. I've been to this site several time through the years. Thanks for posting!!
That moment when the humvee in front of you slams on its brakes for seemingly no reason and the driver behind you isn't paying attention, nor is the next.. or the one behind him.. and so on..
That happened to me on I 15 a few years ago, in December, after dark. Was cruising along in a mostly empty lane the second from the left, all the ones to the right were packed full and almost stationary, when somebody pulls out in front of me from the right and stops dead in the road. I stand on the brake pedal and come within inches of hitting him. I look to my dad in the passenger seat and was just about to say 'that was close' when BAM.... BAM, I get rear ended and the guy behind me gets rear ended. Long story short, I ended up driving another 50 miles after dark in December without a back window, and I was the only one out of that little pile up to not get a ticket.
@@McSkumm in the UK in those situations it's similar, all the cars behind get a ticket, you were driving well, with due care, with a sufficient gap between you and the car in front, everyone behind you was negligent on one or both of the previous points so at fault 😊
@@McSkumm SAME STORY. But in an ice storm. I actually had 10-15 seconds to look in my rear view window and just watch them coming.... and coming... and coming... notice the first is on her cellphone.... still coming.... oh look, a expression of shock on her face. Brace for the G's, this will not hurt. BAM BANG BAM BANG BAM BANG. Went sliding everywhere. 3 cars totaled but because of the ice, the fact her grand am submarined under my bumper & I had let off the brakes I left with only a scratch. We were both heading to Buffalo Wild Wings so she covered my meal and a couple IPAs. I think I came out on top, honestly.
@@McSkumm was the yahoo in front of you ticketed for unsafe lane change?
I don't think I've left a comment and I enjoy the channel. But man, after the Saga of the Kamchatka I realize that your sense of humor, even in grim circumstance aboard of explosions, sinkings and at least 10 pairs of binoculars really makes me laugh. I think a disaster series or dry dock is in order. is in order.
Seventy five years ago, I heard this story in Raymond, WA. Our police chief, Truman Suwaze, was captain of one of the destroyers that did not run aground. Allegedly, he tried to convince his commander of the navigaation error, but was told to follow orders. He was court martialled.
No other Captain was courtmarshalled.
Just a fabulous job on this, Drach. Concise and clear.
I was thinking about suggesting this just a couple of days ago, and now, here it is.
Join his Patreon and you can nominate and vote on these videos. We voted for this one last month.
What an excellent lesson on navigation, the source of errors and the blind trust in yourself! I wasn't aware of this incident so thank you for sharing.
A minor quibble with your explanation of dead reckoning at 2:45. In maritime navigation, you would never normally convert knots to the much less useful miles per hour. At 20 knots, you cover 50 nautical miles in 2.5 hours. The direct relationship between latitude and the nautical mile (1 nm per minute of latitude) is quite fundamental to maritime navigation. I'm not certain of the specifics of the charts used by the US Navy around that time, but I would be very surprised if there was any need to use something other than nautical miles (excepting chains and cables for very short distance, which are just subdivisions of a nautical mile).
Anyway, it's an interesting story which you told well. It reminds me a little of the Royal Navy's Battle of May Island on 31 Jan 1918.
My dad's destroyer USS Samuel N Moore was known as "Rammin Sammy" because she kept hitting buoys, junks, slamming the wharfs and bumping other destroyers in the squadron, regardless of who was at the con. They all had ball caps with the nickname embroidered on the back. She wasn't a jinxed ship, having the highest scores in the division and numerous battle stars. It was just her thing, bouncing around like a full figured gal.
Pulling a Notser in real life is not so funny.🤔
With the California coastline getting a Kracken.
Tactical beaching!
Oh, Notser ... you really need to comment here! :D
One of the perks of going on holiday: Drachinfell video buffer after return! Thanks mate and a good job as usual!
The first visual that entered my thoughts was the scene from the Classic movie Animal House.
At the end of the movie, the character Stork grabs the baton of a marching band Leader, and proceeds to make a 90° turn to Port, march the band down an alley, where they all plow into a brick wall.
One of the last scenes of the movie finds the aforementioned band STILL attempting to march, with their now destroyed brass section continuing to play. Reminds me of that "Fail" sound when a contestant loses on the American game show, The Price is Right.
Certainly not a Naval analogy, but, silly nonetheless.
I live on the Santa Barbara coast literally in site of the Hondo pint disaster. It is part of our local history.
Excellent video!
I thought this was about a Honda Pilot disaster, was expecting a car accident.
Theres too many of those to possibly list in one video.
You're apparently watching the wrong channel if you thought that.
@@RadioactiveSherbet hey buddy, you need to relax guy, take it easy friend.
@@michaelblaszkiewicz7283 I apologize. I was being playful when I said that. It didn't come across that way, I realize. No offense intended.
@@RadioactiveSherbet It would take far more than that to offend me. Cheers!
Once again Drac you bring a little known piece of history that very few people know about in this day of ages!!!. A real good book about this is flush deck's and four pipes!. It is possiblity the best book on the flush deck destroyer's of the U.S. Navy!. The book also cover's the fifty flush deckers that were given to the Royal Navy from Lend Lease!. A must read book!.
Wow...one minute after posting & already 5 views...are we all THAT keen on seeing Drachs latest upload? Come on, raise your hands....*hand jots up*
allan carey patreon.
Jesus.
The poster, his friends and family.
This really is one of the best analysis of this event I've ever heard. Great job.
I keep hearing Homer Simpson saying "D'oh!"
better than the Roblox "oof"
Board of Inquiry: Commodore Watson, do you have any explanation for this disaster
Cmdr.Watson: Its my first day...
Thanks very much! I am fascinated by this disaster. I observe it everyyear,and have read onon tsubject at length! This place covers everything I have read, including navigation errors very well. Thanks. I enjoyed this information Thoroughly.
How rare! Nowadays nobody takes responsability for their mess.
mogaman28 Even today, like it or not... it’s the Captains fault/glory whatever the outcome.
@@richardcline1337 One of the first things taught in boot camp in the Navy is that the person in charge has the responsibility for the safety and security of those under him, or her. Authority to issue commands and such may be delegated to someone of lesser responsibility, however the overall responsibility remains with the person in charge. As it was was phrased in training, Authority may be delegated, Responsibility may not be delegated.
@@richardcline1337 So true, even more so in the private and political sectors.
Thanks Drach, I knew of this incident but now you have made some sense of the how and why.
6:41 & 7:45 show me that this was entirely preventable. Heavy fog, lack of lighthouse navigation, ignoring questionable heading readings when compared to other methods and high speeds? I mean, it's not like they were operating out in the middle of the pacific. They knew they were close to land. To ignore all these potential dangers and warnings and full steam ahead at night/heavy fog without a thought otherwise when doing so was potentially hazardous even in the best of times makes me wonder what the hell Watson was thinking... and given this was his first command of multiple ships... Well... I mean, accidents happen. But this was an avoidable one. And unfortunately 23 men died for no good reason because of gross negligence.
I’m from that area of CA, I’m from Lompoc, CA. The Honda Point disaster is a well told story!! Awesome job!! As kids, we were told the Honda Point story all the time. I ended up serving 15 years in the US Navy as a Damage Controlman!
Read about this incident years ago always wanted to see it done properly
There is a great book about this incident by Charles Lockwood, who was among other things the Admiral in charge of US submarines in WWII. Still in print, it can be found at www.amazon.com/Tragedy-Honda-Annotated-Charles-Lockwood-ebook/dp/B07MHH61BG/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=tragedy+at+honda&qid=1574383333&sr=8-1
Excellent video! It makes one realise how rudimentary our methods of navigation were when even jet passenger liners navigated using the stars up to and including the 1960s.
You should do one on the loss of HMS Raleigh in Labrador 1922. Canada is still dealing with that one...
Thanks for this video. Surprisingly I've never looked at the naval side of this incident. I have long been familiar with this incident through being a railway enthusiast. It is well documented in one of my books on the Southern Pacific's Coast Line.
On today’s episode of “Nature vs Navy” The U.S. coastline eats even more ships to satiate it’s ever growing hunger.
Hey Drach, I think that painting you show first, of the large 18th Century warship sinking during the night and firing a couple of guns, is actually the VICTORY (not Nelson's but the previous one). She was rather top heavy and overwhelmed by a storm, sinking in deep water and not actually running aground as had been thought. The wreck was located not too many years ago.
I seem to remember a French fleet in the late 17th century doing something smiler in the Caribbean in bright daylight though can't recall the details.
How do you run aground while sailing in reverse?
My dad was AF and was stationed at Vandenburg AFB, where they launch rockets. When we were there when I was a kid (early 80s), there were still pieces of wreckage visible on the rocks.
Sounds like a classic case of an inoperative Crew Resource Management situation experienced on an aircraft. Many a plane has hit terrain because the captain had not considered the thoughts and concerns of their lower ranked crew member and simply disregarded them believing their ego was right. Seems the same happened here.
It appears many felt there were anomalies in the data yet the Commander did not appear to listen to concerns raised or because of the levels of hierarchy, had not been advised. Would I be correct to presume in the modern navy all ranks are now encouraged to voice their concerns if such a situation would arise again?
It's kind of worse in some ways, there's been a number of high profile collisions between USN ships and merchants. Training is poor/incomplete, bad, degraded equipment and different RTW rules between merchant and USN complicate matters. The articles touch on some of the issues lightly and don't quite go into the fuller extent of the problems.
www.cnn.com/2017/08/21/politics/navy-ships-crashing-readiness/index.html
www.cnn.com/2017/11/01/politics/navy-fitzgerald-mccain-collisions-report-avoidable/index.html
oh you can voice your concerns but you better be RIGHT
5:57 An interesting picture of USS Delphy, particularly the background. In the distance, we can see three cage masts... dreadnaught battleships at anchor, and closer still the masting and rigging of a sailing ship. Since that wind-powered ship has fighting tops and the location is Boston Harbor it must be USS Constitution.
"A slight navigation error".
As like the Exxon Valdiz?
"A three hour tour!"
Very nice details and post action info. Several points covered not referenced in other write ups on this incident.
What exactly does “stripped of their responsibility” mean if not losing positions of rank?
It was the US Navy, any other Navy in the world they would have been dishonorably discharged. That also explains why the people in charge of the torpedo ordinance bureau in World War II did not die in federal prison
According to a navy friend, it means driving a desk and never being allowed to serve at sea again. A career death sentence.
I just saw something about the destroyer squadron that was involved earlier today. Now i get home and right on cue Drach has a video on it. Its like you read my mind!
I spent 4 years in the U.S.Navy, and after spending 1 year in West PACK and on the way back to the U.S. the largest wave"s was off of San Nickolas Island, the till indicator reads 49 degrees! and that got my attention. The ship I was on was a MSO 489 and made of wood.
Did anyone send a signal 'There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships (or navigation) today'?
EdMcF1: that comment was only made by the British during the Battle of Jutland.
More appropriately "There seems to be something wrong with the coastline today"
EdMcF1 yes, but it was missed in the fog and quickly struck.
In following military history most of my life, I've never heard of this calamity until Drachinifel let me know about it. Just another reason I've become a devoted follower of his site.
Alternative title: “The Three Stooges Join The Navy”
Top work Drach, had never heard of that disaster.
As tragic as it is..."rocks fall, everybody dies" kinda applies.