I too wish I had gone to this race......have watched it many times. Cram at 51.2 and 51.7 for such a great pace and split times. Cruz' best of 141.77 is stellar, but he couldn't do it on his own, like Coe did. And he never got back to good form. Had a very short career. Thanx.
I remember watching this on the telly back in the day when the Beeb used to drop everything to show these guys racing. Without their carbon-plated spikes, today's 3:29 1500 metre runners would have been 3:31 runners in those days.
Great run by Cram - fantastic display of speed endurance. He lost three times in 85 to Coe in an early season 800m, McKean in a slow 800m in a GB v some other countries event (c 1.47) and Ovett in an end of season road mile. But by 85 he was showing that he had a v strong kick and could win in slow races, such as the European Cup 1500m when he ran 24.5 for the last 200m. Off a fast 800m pace he was very hard to beat.
Interesting about Cram -- he was the only runner who beat all of the following runners at some point in his career: Ovett, Coe, Aouita, and Cruz. (Coe never raced Aouita, to my knowledge).
Aouita was due to run in the 1500 in the LA Olympics but swapped to the 5000 metres as he didn't believe that Coe could be beaten @ 1500 metres. He was proved correct 👍
@@KryptonitetoallBS I suspect that is why he switched too. However, from what I recall, he actually claimed he would have beaten Coe in the 1984 final. Highly unlikely IMO.
@@gaviningham Yes, I remember reading that Aouita thought he would have beaten Coe in the LA 1500m. I think it would have been a close race, but the way Coe kicked down the home straight with another full gear that nobody else had... I don't think so, Aouita.
@@gowers1972 IMO, Coe at his best, was unbeatable down the home street in the 1500. Should have been in the 800 but for some reason he was just never in the right place and found his tactics lacking. I remember reading something where they said that he was small and light and the 800 is more physical and that was part of the reason. Interesting read.
Hello Sir, are you by chance Brendan Foster ? Sorry for I am not a native english speaker. I heard you saying you lost interest in middle distances performances after 1990. I wonder what you think about nowaday's long distance performances. There are new shoes, tracks may be faster... But ther must be also Aicar, cetone and I don't know what else. I believe in Cram's performances because he had she shape to do it and trained for it during many years. A little time before him and same time as him, you had Coe and Ovett in England. I don't know what to think about Ovett. He failed in 1984 because he was sick. But I remember an Italian 800m runner went to hospital because the blood infusion he got before the race wasn't adequate to the heat in Los Angeles. Besides, check Ovett's first rounds on 800m in Moscow. To me he should have been disqualified. I believed in Coe's performances. And I have doubts about it since I heard him say "people didn't know it, but I was in Italy these years during winter". Hopefully, he wasn't in the Alpes but where it is warm, so with good conditions to train in winter. Because it is known that in the Alpes of Italia, high level sportmen and ladies where spending the winter where their rich blood was collected in order to be injected in summer. I used to be an athlet of regional level. Even at that level I ran against drugded athlets. Some people don't understand that the contest is mostly against yourself. So if you cheat, you are lying to yourself. Thank you for the post.
Listen technology gets better every few years depending on the sport or discipline, so sure the guys you mentioned would have been better with todays technology. Pole Vault, tennis, ping pong, hockey, football 🏈 just to name a few where technology made the athlete better, also training is a huge deal and has been for 20 years now and they are so much bigger and stronger. Training longer, harder. Just evolution in sport
When athletes arrive on the scene and then improve gradually over a few years you can believe it. When you get athletes arrive on the scene who get destroyed by others and then within a couple of years are destroying these same athletes and smashing world records by big margins you have to be suspicious, especially when 25 years later no-one can get near those records! To believe that it was only cyclists who benefited in the 1990's and early 2000's from EPO would be incredibly naive!!! EPO was rife then!!!
Confused, the records were 1.4173 and 3.29 ish and were only taken down to 1.4111 in 97 and 3.27 in 93/94 and 3.26 In late 90's so confused wat u mean?
In 1974 the world record for 1500M was 3.32.2. In 1985 It was 3.29.5 - that is 2.7 seconds progression over 11 years. In 1992 the record stood at 3.28.8 - In 1998 it was 3.26 - a progression over 5 years of 2.8 seconds. As records improve they become progressively harder to reduce - so one would expect smaller reductions not larger reductions. We see a similar size of reduction in the 90s when EPO was rife (and there was no test) over 5 years that we see in the 70s/80s over 11 years when the records were slower. The 800 record fell less impressively simply because unlike in the 1500/mile - Coe ran near his full potential in 1981 and set an outstanding record (same can be said of his 1K record) - plus EPO is less effective the shorter the distance. The record improvements in the 90s for 5K and 10K are even greater.
I believe Coe was quite fortunate that the “1983” Cram didn’t show up at the LA games. Looking back the big three we’re pretty well matched…Coe was the best 800 metre runner with an unbelievable kick, Cram was the best miler in my opinion, Ovett had the greatest range. Hindsight’s a wonderful thing but for Ovett, after the church railing incident he lost half a yard of kick and I wonder what a switch to 5000 in ‘83 would have garnered.
Separated by a few years and with injuries etc, they were never all at their best at the same time. It would be certainly interesting had they all been in peak form at the same time and in the same race and I think really hard to call :-). Over 800, Coe had the speed edge but failed to show up, even when fit, on several occasions. Cram had a blinding time in the 1:42s and Ovett never broke 1:44. Whilst I am sure he could have run faster, I'd favour the other two. Which one would depend on Coe turning up tactically. As for the 1500, harder still as they all ran many tactically sound races. When you look at their fastest times, when they were run and their approach to running them, I think they could all have shaved time off so not even clear who would have been the fastest. In a good race, maybe Cram would go early? Coe and Ovett would sit on his shoulder and hope to "outlast" him. Cram would try and big step away from them. You could see a mixed up MCU timeline of each of them winning. Much like Cram running the finish out of Coe when he wasn't quite on form or Coe winning the 1985 1500 when maybe Cram wasn't quite at his best. My heart says Coe but genuinely, on the right day, could have been any of them. I suspect if they'd raced in peak fitness a few times, there could have been different winners. Ironically, we are prone to judging them together because they were so close in time and they did meet occasionally but really, it's as hard as judging them with someone they never met.
I think the 1984 Coe had the beating of the 1983 Cram in LA. The 85 Cram though was a different animal altogether though. An 84 Coe v an 85 Cram. What a race that would have been .
In his 1985 3.46 he was probably in the form of his life to do that and run maybe 3.45 or 3.44. You need a pacemaker that can get you there in 3.30 - something El Gerouj had but not Cram Coe or Ovett who typically ran the last 300 on their own.
I don't think that's been done or, if it has, it's an outlier. Goes to show how tight the margins of error are that you need to be focused on your exact distance etc.
If we're going to speculate about PEDs in middle distance running, then we need to be suspicious of Coe/Ovett/Cram. Filbert Bayi of 🇹🇿 Tanzania was the last 1500m/mile guy to set a suspension-less WR.
Cram is the best athlete never to win an Olympic gold. He just had the misfortune to hit his peak after one Olympics and be past it before the next.
Cram was superb that year. So good to see him wearing his Jarrow club vest; nowadays everyone wears identical sponsored kit - very boring.
Enjoyed it, but wish I could have heard David Coleman's race call better.
Coe, cram, elliot., and for me the greates, ovett . What a golden era for English middle distance runners.
I too wish I had gone to this race......have watched it many times. Cram at 51.2 and 51.7 for such a great pace and split times. Cruz' best of 141.77 is stellar, but he couldn't do it on his own, like Coe did. And he never got back to good form. Had a very short career. Thanx.
I remember watching this on the telly back in the day when the Beeb used to drop everything to show these guys racing. Without their carbon-plated spikes, today's 3:29 1500 metre runners would have been 3:31 runners in those days.
Great run by Cram - fantastic display of speed endurance. He lost three times in 85 to Coe in an early season 800m, McKean in a slow 800m in a GB v some other countries event (c 1.47) and Ovett in an end of season road mile. But by 85 he was showing that he had a v strong kick and could win in slow races, such as the European Cup 1500m when he ran 24.5 for the last 200m. Off a fast 800m pace he was very hard to beat.
If he was in this form in 84,88 Olympics he’d be a 4 times Olympic champ at 800/1500
@@APBCTechnique Certainly the Cram of '85 would have won the 1500m in Seoul at a canter.
My favourite Cram's 800 is the one at Edinburgh. I love that one.
Oh yes his Edinburgh run he looked formidable. Was not quite in the same form when Coe beat him in the Euros.
1.43.22 in pretty awful conditions - was probably worth 1.42.50 in perfect conditions.
Good analysis! The 1979 Dubai Golden Mile is another gem -- when Coe sets his first mile world record, surprising the rest of the stacked field.
I will be reviewing that one. Yes Coe looked like he could have run 3.47 in that race.
Interesting about Cram -- he was the only runner who beat all of the following runners at some point in his career: Ovett, Coe, Aouita, and Cruz. (Coe never raced Aouita, to my knowledge).
Yep, Cram was overshadowed by those others, but damn he was good.
Aouita was due to run in the 1500 in the LA Olympics but swapped to the 5000 metres as he didn't believe that Coe could be beaten @ 1500 metres. He was proved correct 👍
@@KryptonitetoallBS I suspect that is why he switched too. However, from what I recall, he actually claimed he would have beaten Coe in the 1984 final. Highly unlikely IMO.
@@gaviningham Yes, I remember reading that Aouita thought he would have beaten Coe in the LA 1500m. I think it would have been a close race, but the way Coe kicked down the home straight with another full gear that nobody else had... I don't think so, Aouita.
@@gowers1972 IMO, Coe at his best, was unbeatable down the home street in the 1500. Should have been in the 800 but for some reason he was just never in the right place and found his tactics lacking. I remember reading something where they said that he was small and light and the 800 is more physical and that was part of the reason. Interesting read.
Cruz's best 1.41.77
Hello Sir, are you by chance Brendan Foster ?
Sorry for I am not a native english speaker. I heard you saying you lost interest in middle distances performances after 1990. I wonder what you think about nowaday's long distance performances. There are new shoes, tracks may be faster... But ther must be also Aicar, cetone and I don't know what else.
I believe in Cram's performances because he had she shape to do it and trained for it during many years.
A little time before him and same time as him, you had Coe and Ovett in England. I don't know what to think about Ovett. He failed in 1984 because he was sick. But I remember an Italian 800m runner went to hospital because the blood infusion he got before the race wasn't adequate to the heat in Los Angeles. Besides, check Ovett's first rounds on 800m in Moscow. To me he should have been disqualified.
I believed in Coe's performances. And I have doubts about it since I heard him say "people didn't know it, but I was in Italy these years during winter". Hopefully, he wasn't in the Alpes but where it is warm, so with good conditions to train in winter. Because it is known that in the Alpes of Italia, high level sportmen and ladies where spending the winter where their rich blood was collected in order to be injected in summer.
I used to be an athlet of regional level. Even at that level I ran against drugded athlets. Some people don't understand that the contest is mostly against yourself. So if you cheat, you are lying to yourself.
Thank you for the post.
You’re talking over David Coleman, the greatest ever middle distance commentator. How could you?
Not even out of breath
Fast tracks help ! Word was that 11 track records were broken in the summer , on the track that Secretariat won the Belmont Stakes.
８００ｍはこの時代から殆どレベルアップしていない。。
We are still racing shoes today.
Listen technology gets better every few years depending on the sport or discipline, so sure the guys you mentioned would have been better with todays technology. Pole Vault, tennis, ping pong, hockey, football 🏈 just to name a few where technology made the athlete better, also training is a huge deal and has been for 20 years now and they are so much bigger and stronger. Training longer, harder. Just evolution in sport
Have some of the middle distance runners since Coe , Ovett , & Cram been on steroids , do you think ?
When athletes arrive on the scene and then improve gradually over a few years you can believe it. When you get athletes arrive on the scene who get destroyed by others and then within a couple of years are destroying these same athletes and smashing world records by big margins you have to be suspicious, especially when 25 years later no-one can get near those records! To believe that it was only cyclists who benefited in the 1990's and early 2000's from EPO would be incredibly naive!!! EPO was rife then!!!
Confused, the records were 1.4173 and 3.29 ish and were only taken down to 1.4111 in 97 and 3.27 in 93/94 and 3.26 In late 90's so confused wat u mean?
In 1974 the world record for 1500M was 3.32.2. In 1985 It was 3.29.5 - that is 2.7 seconds progression over 11 years. In 1992 the record stood at 3.28.8 - In 1998 it was 3.26 - a progression over 5 years of 2.8 seconds. As records improve they become progressively harder to reduce - so one would expect smaller reductions not larger reductions. We see a similar size of reduction in the 90s when EPO was rife (and there was no test) over 5 years that we see in the 70s/80s over 11 years when the records were slower. The 800 record fell less impressively simply because unlike in the 1500/mile - Coe ran near his full potential in 1981 and set an outstanding record (same can be said of his 1K record) - plus EPO is less effective the shorter the distance. The record improvements in the 90s for 5K and 10K are even greater.
I believe Coe was quite fortunate that the “1983” Cram didn’t show up at the LA games. Looking back the big three we’re pretty well matched…Coe was the best 800 metre runner with an unbelievable kick, Cram was the best miler in my opinion, Ovett had the greatest range. Hindsight’s a wonderful thing but for Ovett, after the church railing incident he lost half a yard of kick and I wonder what a switch to 5000 in ‘83 would have garnered.
Separated by a few years and with injuries etc, they were never all at their best at the same time. It would be certainly interesting had they all been in peak form at the same time and in the same race and I think really hard to call :-).
Over 800, Coe had the speed edge but failed to show up, even when fit, on several occasions. Cram had a blinding time in the 1:42s and Ovett never broke 1:44. Whilst I am sure he could have run faster, I'd favour the other two. Which one would depend on Coe turning up tactically.
As for the 1500, harder still as they all ran many tactically sound races. When you look at their fastest times, when they were run and their approach to running them, I think they could all have shaved time off so not even clear who would have been the fastest.
In a good race, maybe Cram would go early? Coe and Ovett would sit on his shoulder and hope to "outlast" him. Cram would try and big step away from them. You could see a mixed up MCU timeline of each of them winning. Much like Cram running the finish out of Coe when he wasn't quite on form or Coe winning the 1985 1500 when maybe Cram wasn't quite at his best.
My heart says Coe but genuinely, on the right day, could have been any of them. I suspect if they'd raced in peak fitness a few times, there could have been different winners.
Ironically, we are prone to judging them together because they were so close in time and they did meet occasionally but really, it's as hard as judging them with someone they never met.
I think the 1984 Coe had the beating of the 1983 Cram in LA. The 85 Cram though was a different animal altogether though. An 84 Coe v an 85 Cram. What a race that would have been .
@@darrenshaw767 Coe's best was earlier IMO. Too many injuries and illnesses although he was in good form in 1984.
I also think Ovetts best was too early for Coe and consequently Cram. Ovett was imperious 1978-1980. 3 fantastic runners.
Surely if steve cram ran a sub 3 30 for 1500 m why not push another 100m and possibly break the 1 mile world record 🤔....loved this era
In his 1985 3.46 he was probably in the form of his life to do that and run maybe 3.45 or 3.44. You need a pacemaker that can get you there in 3.30 - something El Gerouj had but not Cram Coe or Ovett who typically ran the last 300 on their own.
@@goldenmiddledistanceraces5929 still the European record today, albeit Jakob getting very close several months ago
I don't think that's been done or, if it has, it's an outlier. Goes to show how tight the margins of error are that you need to be focused on your exact distance etc.
Cram was only at his best for a short time.
If we're going to speculate about PEDs in middle distance running, then we need to be suspicious of Coe/Ovett/Cram. Filbert Bayi of 🇹🇿 Tanzania was the last 1500m/mile guy to set a suspension-less WR.
There was nothing like EPO in the Coe era that could have helped.
There was never a whiff of a rumour that Coe, Ovett or Cram had been involved in anything illegal.