These mismatched mics work quite well together and possibly dispel the myth that a guitar recorded in stereo should be done with a matched pair of identical microphones. Well done!
Hi, thanks so much! Glad you enjoyed the video. Yeah absolutely I agree, the Neumann is mine but the Ribbon I had to give back unfortunately, I'd like to experiment a little more with this setup. Thanks for watching :-)
@@FabianHollandGuitar Hey Fabian. I am fascinated with that BM9 and ribbon mics in general. I would love to try out the BM9 one day. I am thinking about buying a Royer R-121 to start my journey into recording acoustic guitar with ribbon mics.
This ribbon/condenser mis-matched spaced setup is how I've been recording solo acoustic guitars for a number of years also. I like covering the breadth of the instrument instead of a point-source localised setup. A single cardioid spot mic is like the equivalent of photographing just the area of "pimple" or an "eye" of the subject on facial portrait with such a tight pickup beam. A spaced pair of anything will give more area coverage to reveal all the overtones & depth of sound, plus the chance to open up the stereo panning. However, you will find different makes of mics when brought very closely together, in the same time domain such as coincident crossed pairs or M-S can expose phase cancellation differences & distortions when summed - particularly if using a mixture of transformerless product with a transformer-designed output product. For M-S work (for example) it's really best advised to keep to the same brand & family where the electronic topologies are matched. When you do a phase-null check, you will hear the bad artefacts of mixed mics if un-matched.
@@matthowe7057 Hi, thanks for the detailed input, really appreciate that. Definitely some interesting stuff there. Would you also use a stereo setup with a guitarist and singer? And then have a 3rd mic for the vocals? Thanks
To begin with, thank you for this interesting lesson. Let me tell you that your interpretation reminds me (beyond the tuning) of my neighbor (🇫🇷)and friend Pierre Bensusan. Bravo et merci!
Hi, thanks so much! Glad you enjoyed the video. Ah wow, is Pierre Bensusan really your neighbor and friend? He is one of my favourite guitarists. I've taken a lot of inspiration from his music and playing over the years. Probably why my playing reminds you of him 🙂
Such a dynamic sound! Is it me or does the ribbon mic also tame the higher frequencies of the km184? BTW these videos are great, so refreshing to see something a little bit different - they're making me think about my own approach to recording guitar and provide a really useful benchmark.
Hi, thanks so much! I really appreciate that. Yeah absolutely this particular ribbon mic is very good at capturing the high end frequencies I find. I could of easily used just the ribbon mic on its own (of course in a different position) and it would of also sounded great. I'm really happy you're getting something out of these videos ☺️ cheers!
I´m using a Rode NT55 MP and I've been always missing the depth and fullness of my recordings. So I think I'll extend my setup with a Royer R-10. Thanks for the advice 🥰
Hi, thanks for the comment. Ah yeah I've heard the Royer R-10's are great! I've never tried one myself but I have tried a few other Royer mics before and they all sound amazing! I've heard of a few other guitarists having this as their go to mic set up so I thought I'd try it out. Cheers :-)
Awesome. Both mics sound nice on their own and that could be further optimized with placement. EG: The extinct audio would offer more clarity and high end say pointing at 12th fret They sound awesome together in those positions and you could obviously play with levels to fit it in a busy mix.
Hi, thanks for the comment and suggestions 😊👍 yeah absolutely, I’d definitely experiment with mic position with these and yeah absolutely they’d both sound great on their own for sure! Thanks
@@FabianHollandGuitar Depends on which acoustic I use for the track, but my typical go-to LD is a AKG414ULS or a Rode K2. I've experimented with many combinations over the years. The journey is a lot of fun!
Nice video. Great sound and playing. As an engineer, I'd love to see a derivation of this so-called 3-to-1 rule, as I hear it thrown around alot, although I'm pretty sure most people who swear by it don't actually understand it. I like to co-locate a ribbon with a condenser. That way, I only have to negotiate a single position, and both mic's will be in phase. Have been getting great results with that technique.
Hi, thanks for the comment!! The 3 to 1 rule is something I was experimenting with, I can’t remember where I heard it now? But you’re right it’s probably been thrown around a lot and now people hear it as gospel. I love the combination of a ribbon and a SDC, I’d like to experiment with this set up a lot more!
I think it's always good to question these conventions, and try your own methods to get your own sound. No one else knows the point you are trying to get across with your music. Ribbon + SDC has been a breakthrough for me. Love it. Thanks for the comment and I will check out more of your videos.@@FabianHollandGuitar
The ribbon mic makes a notable difference. I'm torn between buying a pair of KM 184s or one with a ribbon mic, but the what what I've read about ribbon mics being so fragile I'm afraid of them. Thanks for the demo. Still looking for reviews of a pair of KM 184s to compare to one with the ribbon.
Yeah ribbons sound great, I love them! They are a little more fragile compared to other mics but I still handle them the same way I handle my other mics. Thanks for the comments :-)
That ribbon just looks soooo cool! Ans sounds amazing Obv! Exited to try my Coles 4038 on Acoustic with a SDC. I wonder if the M60 or the 184 will win! Have you ever tried an M60 yet? I was just about to buy a second one today, but passed when I found a mint Km184 for a few hundred bucks. Had to get it lol!
Ah yeah I love the Coles mics! Tried them a bunch of times but I'd really like to get one for myself. They just sound great on everything! I've only tried the M60 a couple of times, sounds lovely as well. Thanks for the comment ☺️
@@FabianHollandGuitar No problem. Ya, I haven't used the Coles too much since I got it, but have used them as Overheads in studios, and just played with it on Acoustic guitar last night after watching this hah. All I can say is they sound soooo massive. They definitely call them Farfield Ribbons for a reason hah. The proximity on them is just insane. But once you clean yo the bottom a touch and add some top end they sound beautiful. I'm not sure how your ribbon mic is, but with the Coles, once you get back a few feet the EQ curve really flattens out, but up close theres just so much bass that they actually begin to sound a touch on the dark side, but then they take EQ very well. I love them on Sterio Drum OH's either with a Mono Condenser, or Mono with Sterio Condensers. Oh you tried the M60, nice. Ya I love mine! Def want another one soon!
@@FabianHollandGuitar Hey. I only own one 4038, but I've been in some nice studios to record drums, and used a pair(of the studios 4038's) for Spaced Pair OH's. But ya, definitely going to get another 4038 one day soon! Wow, 4038 on Vocals. I've really been wanting to try that! I could see it working very well. How far was the singer off from it when you recorded Vox with it?
Hi, thanks! I think it stands up well to the R121. I actually think I compared the two a while back when visiting my friends studio here in Berlin. I might even have a recording of it somewhere? If I find it I'll have a listen again and let you know! Or even better send you the audio files 🙂
@@FabianHollandGuitar Man if you can share the files that'd be amazing. I always loved a Royer r121 on my old Gurian guitar but have not bought one yet.. If i got the BM9 i could likely afford a Geffel m300 or a pair of K184s for the same price as an r121..
These two mics would be perfect for a mid/side stereo image. I'm curious if you've ever used or experimented with different stereo techniques like mid/side specifically for recording your acoustic guitar.
Yeah I've experimented a little with this type of stuff but I'd like to do more. The Extinct Audio isn't mine unfortunately but next time I get my hands of it I'll try some different positions with these two mics.
Hi, thanks! No phase issues that I was aware of. I'm not massively experienced when it comes to recording with multiple mics, I'm a big fan of the humble one mic which is my go to setup. But it's definitely interesting to experiment with other setups like this.
Great and informative again ❤! I m still not sure if I should finally get a ribbon mic or not (few models in mind) to bring some warmth and authenticity…But I record only in a tiny mini home studio where I treated it for almost zero sound reflection…so is the ribbon actually worth it in this case? 😅 considering how it built and it’s nature…I record only nylon strings from classical to fusion styles…with classical I use a pair of oktava and a tiny touch of an old AKG perception 220…I wish to exchange this old AKG to get a ribbon mic…I hope it would improve both when I record in mono only with this future ribbon (for fusion projects) or when I mix it with the oktava pair for classical guitar …but I m not sure and limited in budget so I think for months before investing in gear which at the end doesn’t make me play better 😅…if u have any though on a the efficiency of ribbon in a complete dry and small environment for nylon guitar please feel free to give your opinion I d love to hear it!! You might not see the comment but if u do and get one minute I d really be grateful 😊 great videos anyway thank you 🙏
Hi, thanks for the comment. Yeah I know what you mean, it's hard to know whether to invest into something if you don't know how it will react in your space. Especially with ribbons, they are effected more by the room and the preamp than other mics. Not sure how they would react to a small dead space? If you're able to borrow or hire a ribbon before hand then this is a good way to try it out. There are also some cheaper ribbons out there that are still pretty good for the price, and then you could upgrade once you know that a ribbon would work with your setup. Hope that helps. Cheers!
@@FabianHollandGuitar thanx a lot for your reply!!! Indeed borrow or at worst rent a ribbon is actually the safest way to go ! Thanx a lot I will try it before , it makes sense. Keep on your great work 👍
Hi Zaid, thanks for the question. A lot of mics would work with flamenco, I think you just have to be careful with the position of the mic. There's a lot of loud rhythmical strumming in flamenco so making sure the mic isn't too close to the guitar. Paco de Lucia used a small diaphragm condenser on stage so I assume he also used it in the studio as well. I'm not sure which kind he used but I really like the Neumann km184, there's also lots of cheaper alternatives that sound great.
@@zaidawni3099 no problem at all. To be honest I've never tried this mic before but AKG make really nice mics and it looks like it's a nice one! Probably very similar to a Neumann Km184
Haha! Love it 😂. I actually really like the sm57. I'd love to do a video using only sm57 mics. You just can't get the same detail with a dynamic mic as you can with a condenser or ribbon, especially when playing soft Fingerpicking.
@@FabianHollandGuitar lol yeah, its pretty much useless on acoustic...hahaha I have a pair of km-184 laying around in my studio at my church, untouched...and I was like, these have to be worth something.. Mic'd up an acoustic guitar and my gawd. The detail is insane. Helpful video! Thanks for the info!
Here´s my take on the almost same setup, I used my KM84 instead of 184. I played couple of bluegrass fiddle tunes with a pick. The mic setup really works great! ua-cam.com/video/a6yHDfVNXRg/v-deo.html
Beautiful guitar playing and great mic demonstration!
Hi, thanks! Glad you enjoyed the video! 🙂
Sounds incredible. Love the playing as well. Beautiful and haunting. 👏🏻
Thanks so much! I appreciate that. 🙂👍
These mismatched mics work quite well together and possibly dispel the myth that a guitar recorded in stereo should be done with a matched pair of identical microphones. Well done!
Hi, thanks so much! Glad you enjoyed the video. Yeah absolutely I agree, the Neumann is mine but the Ribbon I had to give back unfortunately, I'd like to experiment a little more with this setup. Thanks for watching :-)
@@FabianHollandGuitar Hey Fabian. I am fascinated with that BM9 and ribbon mics in general. I would love to try out the BM9 one day. I am thinking about buying a Royer R-121 to start my journey into recording acoustic guitar with ribbon mics.
This ribbon/condenser mis-matched spaced setup is how I've been recording solo acoustic guitars for a number of years also. I like covering the breadth of the instrument instead of a point-source localised setup. A single cardioid spot mic is like the equivalent of photographing just the area of "pimple" or an "eye" of the subject on facial portrait with such a tight pickup beam. A spaced pair of anything will give more area coverage to reveal all the overtones & depth of sound, plus the chance to open up the stereo panning. However, you will find different makes of mics when brought very closely together, in the same time domain such as coincident crossed pairs or M-S can expose phase cancellation differences & distortions when summed - particularly if using a mixture of transformerless product with a transformer-designed output product. For M-S work (for example) it's really best advised to keep to the same brand & family where the electronic topologies are matched. When you do a phase-null check, you will hear the bad artefacts of mixed mics if un-matched.
@@matthowe7057 Hi, thanks for the detailed input, really appreciate that. Definitely some interesting stuff there. Would you also use a stereo setup with a guitarist and singer? And then have a 3rd mic for the vocals? Thanks
To begin with, thank you for this interesting lesson. Let me tell you that your interpretation reminds me (beyond the tuning) of my neighbor (🇫🇷)and friend Pierre Bensusan.
Bravo et merci!
Hi, thanks so much! Glad you enjoyed the video.
Ah wow, is Pierre Bensusan really your neighbor and friend? He is one of my favourite guitarists. I've taken a lot of inspiration from his music and playing over the years. Probably why my playing reminds you of him 🙂
Amazing sound! Gotta get that KM 184 asap - cheers for this vid!
Thanks! Oh yeah they're really great mics for sure! :-)
Such a dynamic sound! Is it me or does the ribbon mic also tame the higher frequencies of the km184?
BTW these videos are great, so refreshing to see something a little bit different - they're making me think about my own approach to recording guitar and provide a really useful benchmark.
Hi, thanks so much! I really appreciate that. Yeah absolutely this particular ribbon mic is very good at capturing the high end frequencies I find. I could of easily used just the ribbon mic on its own (of course in a different position) and it would of also sounded great.
I'm really happy you're getting something out of these videos ☺️ cheers!
lovely playing and a beautiful Lowden. I'm going to try this with my Gefell M300 and Cascade Fathead ribbon
I´m using a Rode NT55 MP and I've been always missing the depth and fullness of my recordings. So I think I'll extend my setup with a Royer R-10. Thanks for the advice 🥰
Hi, thanks for the comment. Ah yeah I've heard the Royer R-10's are great! I've never tried one myself but I have tried a few other Royer mics before and they all sound amazing! I've heard of a few other guitarists having this as their go to mic set up so I thought I'd try it out. Cheers :-)
Awesome. Both mics sound nice on their own and that could be further optimized with placement. EG: The extinct audio would offer more clarity and high end say pointing at 12th fret
They sound awesome together in those positions and you could obviously play with levels to fit it in a busy mix.
Hi, thanks for the comment and suggestions 😊👍 yeah absolutely, I’d definitely experiment with mic position with these and yeah absolutely they’d both sound great on their own for sure! Thanks
Comparison timestamps
Neumann only: 2:47
Ribbon only: 3:28
Neumann + ribbon together: 4:03
What is your signal chain after the mics? Sounds great!
Great playing and great guitar!
Thanks, I see you have a Lowden yourself, very nice! Which model do you have?
@@FabianHollandGuitar Yes I do my friend. It’s a Lowden O-25C. Cedar top Rosewood back and sides.
@@AaronRashaw ohh very nice! Cedar is the best! 😊
The mics are nice, I use a 184 with a larger diaphragm for a 2 mic set up and it sounds great. That Lowden sounds really, really good!
Hi, thanks so much! Nice! Which large diaphragm do you use with it?
@@FabianHollandGuitar Depends on which acoustic I use for the track, but my typical go-to LD is a AKG414ULS or a Rode K2. I've experimented with many combinations over the years. The journey is a lot of fun!
Oh yeah I really like the 414's! That's a nice combo with the km184 😊👍
Nice video. Great sound and playing. As an engineer, I'd love to see a derivation of this so-called 3-to-1 rule, as I hear it thrown around alot, although I'm pretty sure most people who swear by it don't actually understand it. I like to co-locate a ribbon with a condenser. That way, I only have to negotiate a single position, and both mic's will be in phase. Have been getting great results with that technique.
Hi, thanks for the comment!! The 3 to 1 rule is something I was experimenting with, I can’t remember where I heard it now? But you’re right it’s probably been thrown around a lot and now people hear it as gospel. I love the combination of a ribbon and a SDC, I’d like to experiment with this set up a lot more!
I think it's always good to question these conventions, and try your own methods to get your own sound. No one else knows the point you are trying to get across with your music. Ribbon + SDC has been a breakthrough for me. Love it. Thanks for the comment and I will check out more of your videos.@@FabianHollandGuitar
The ribbon mic makes a notable difference. I'm torn between buying a pair of KM 184s or one with a ribbon mic, but the what what I've read about ribbon mics being so fragile I'm afraid of them. Thanks for the demo. Still looking for reviews of a pair of KM 184s to compare to one with the ribbon.
Yeah ribbons sound great, I love them! They are a little more fragile compared to other mics but I still handle them the same way I handle my other mics. Thanks for the comments :-)
That ribbon just looks soooo cool! Ans sounds amazing Obv! Exited to try my Coles 4038 on Acoustic with a SDC. I wonder if the M60 or the 184 will win! Have you ever tried an M60 yet? I was just about to buy a second one today, but passed when I found a mint Km184 for a few hundred bucks. Had to get it lol!
Ah yeah I love the Coles mics! Tried them a bunch of times but I'd really like to get one for myself. They just sound great on everything! I've only tried the M60 a couple of times, sounds lovely as well. Thanks for the comment ☺️
@@FabianHollandGuitar No problem. Ya, I haven't used the Coles too much since I got it, but have used them as Overheads in studios, and just played with it on Acoustic guitar last night after watching this hah. All I can say is they sound soooo massive. They definitely call them Farfield Ribbons for a reason hah. The proximity on them is just insane. But once you clean yo the bottom a touch and add some top end they sound beautiful. I'm not sure how your ribbon mic is, but with the Coles, once you get back a few feet the EQ curve really flattens out, but up close theres just so much bass that they actually begin to sound a touch on the dark side, but then they take EQ very well. I love them on Sterio Drum OH's either with a Mono Condenser, or Mono with Sterio Condensers. Oh you tried the M60, nice. Ya I love mine! Def want another one soon!
@@jamescassidy4045Nice! So are you using a stereo pair of Coles then? I tried them on vocals as well and they sounded amazing!
@@FabianHollandGuitar Hey. I only own one 4038, but I've been in some nice studios to record drums, and used a pair(of the studios 4038's) for Spaced Pair OH's. But ya, definitely going to get another 4038 one day soon! Wow, 4038 on Vocals. I've really been wanting to try that! I could see it working very well. How far was the singer off from it when you recorded Vox with it?
Hey man. Lovely playing indeed! I am a big fan of the ribbon sound! SO how does the BM9 comparer to an R121?
Hi, thanks! I think it stands up well to the R121. I actually think I compared the two a while back when visiting my friends studio here in Berlin. I might even have a recording of it somewhere? If I find it I'll have a listen again and let you know! Or even better send you the audio files 🙂
@@FabianHollandGuitar Man if you can share the files that'd be amazing. I always loved a Royer r121 on my old Gurian guitar but have not bought one yet.. If i got the BM9 i could likely afford a Geffel m300 or a pair of K184s for the same price as an r121..
These two mics would be perfect for a mid/side stereo image. I'm curious if you've ever used or experimented with different stereo techniques like mid/side specifically for recording your acoustic guitar.
Yeah I've experimented a little with this type of stuff but I'd like to do more. The Extinct Audio isn't mine unfortunately but next time I get my hands of it I'll try some different positions with these two mics.
i like more neumann only. thanks!
Do you pan the mics hard right and left? Sounds great!
Thanks! No I didn't for this one, I should of done though, or at least tried it out 😊🤦next time.
I really like this approach. Did you have any phase issues at all?
Hi, thanks! No phase issues that I was aware of. I'm not massively experienced when it comes to recording with multiple mics, I'm a big fan of the humble one mic which is my go to setup. But it's definitely interesting to experiment with other setups like this.
Great and informative again ❤! I m still not sure if I should finally get a ribbon mic or not (few models in mind) to bring some warmth and authenticity…But I record only in a tiny mini home studio where I treated it for almost zero sound reflection…so is the ribbon actually worth it in this case? 😅 considering how it built and it’s nature…I record only nylon strings from classical to fusion styles…with classical I use a pair of oktava and a tiny touch of an old AKG perception 220…I wish to exchange this old AKG to get a ribbon mic…I hope it would improve both when I record in mono only with this future ribbon (for fusion projects) or when I mix it with the oktava pair for classical guitar …but I m not sure and limited in budget so I think for months before investing in gear which at the end doesn’t make me play better 😅…if u have any though on a the efficiency of ribbon in a complete dry and small environment for nylon guitar please feel free to give your opinion I d love to hear it!! You might not see the comment but if u do and get one minute I d really be grateful 😊 great videos anyway thank you 🙏
Hi, thanks for the comment. Yeah I know what you mean, it's hard to know whether to invest into something if you don't know how it will react in your space. Especially with ribbons, they are effected more by the room and the preamp than other mics. Not sure how they would react to a small dead space? If you're able to borrow or hire a ribbon before hand then this is a good way to try it out. There are also some cheaper ribbons out there that are still pretty good for the price, and then you could upgrade once you know that a ribbon would work with your setup. Hope that helps. Cheers!
@@FabianHollandGuitar thanx a lot for your reply!!! Indeed borrow or at worst rent a ribbon is actually the safest way to go ! Thanx a lot I will try it before , it makes sense. Keep on your great work 👍
@@alexandreglize no problem at all 😊 let me know how it goes! I'd be interested to know.
what guitar are you using?
1994 Lowden O10, Mahogany back and sides with a Cedar top
Hello, can you tell me which mic is best to use with a flamenco guitar
Hi Zaid, thanks for the question. A lot of mics would work with flamenco, I think you just have to be careful with the position of the mic. There's a lot of loud rhythmical strumming in flamenco so making sure the mic isn't too close to the guitar. Paco de Lucia used a small diaphragm condenser on stage so I assume he also used it in the studio as well. I'm not sure which kind he used but I really like the Neumann km184, there's also lots of cheaper alternatives that sound great.
@@FabianHollandGuitar Thank you for the reply, I am very grateful to you. I would like to ask you what do you think of the microphone AKG C480B ?
@@zaidawni3099 no problem at all. To be honest I've never tried this mic before but AKG make really nice mics and it looks like it's a nice one! Probably very similar to a Neumann Km184
@@FabianHollandGuitar Thank you from the heart🌹
@@FabianHollandGuitar ua-cam.com/video/QiRkIUC8Gb8/v-deo.html Do you know this mic?
yeah my sm57 can do that
Haha! Love it 😂. I actually really like the sm57. I'd love to do a video using only sm57 mics. You just can't get the same detail with a dynamic mic as you can with a condenser or ribbon, especially when playing soft Fingerpicking.
@@FabianHollandGuitar lol yeah, its pretty much useless on acoustic...hahaha
I have a pair of km-184 laying around in my studio at my church, untouched...and I was like, these have to be worth something..
Mic'd up an acoustic guitar and my gawd. The detail is insane.
Helpful video! Thanks for the info!
Here´s my take on the almost same setup, I used my KM84 instead of 184. I played couple of bluegrass fiddle tunes with a pick. The mic setup really works great!
ua-cam.com/video/a6yHDfVNXRg/v-deo.html
Awesome! Thanks for sharing! 😊👍