You can tell he's an insurance adjuster because he didn't even try to pick a fight when it came to replacing the panel. He's probably seen the aftermath of electrical fires before
had one like this at work, but didnt need the thermal cam. had off/ on problems throughout the office. after opening that panel, one of the bolts holding down a main lug was partially melted and glowing a bright orange. it was so bright, a employee asked me what that ''orange led'' was for!
Oh man... What a great example of 1-1 with the costumer and coordinating all the stuff for a great service. What has me stumped is how the Utility Company works so seamlessly with the electrician over there. Here in PR (Puerto Rico, US territory), the Utility (Government owned and operated), is a dice roll to work with. For a simple meter removal, you need to file a repair certification, pay a bunch of fees, submit it personally to the nearest regional office, wait for the meter to be removed at any random moment without prior notification, and it can be anywhere between a couple of days to a month... And it's basically the same inverted process to get the meter back on, so the costumer will be out of power for a while. This completely unreliable/random process makes most people skip on fixing their electrical systems, always patching up stuff by non-electricians or DIY, and promotes illegal tag cutting and meter tampering practices... I'm in love seeing how stuff works so smoothly over on the mainland US. Someday, if private competition and operation of the grid is enabled here, we might see some improvement. In the meanwhile, we might as well call ourselves a third world "Republic".
Gee, I just throw the disconnect at the meter, and the power stops there. Then I turn it back on when I'm done. Now if you are tapping into the incoming lines to get power before the meter, you have to do that on live wire. Or get a long pole and disconnect on the pole.
I just had this happen on my moms Siemens panel. It’s 30 years old and I found the main breaker was not seated to the bus and arcing like your panel. Fortunately we got lucky and a new breaker solved the problem.
Our house was built in 1976 and has the original tiny 10 breaker, 60 amp panel. We plan on upgrading it next summer, in its current state it works just fine, but I've noticed that there are just too many outlets/lights/switches on some of those breakers. One 15 amp breaker had 22 outlets/lights on it, about 6 of those were in the basement, I think added by the previous owner as all of them had hot and neutral reversed and 2 had no ground connected for some reason. I ended up just removing that whole run of 6 outlets as we don't currently need them, we'll add them back in on a separate 20 amp breaker on the new panel. Worst of all, there was a 20 amp breaker for the laundry room but a 2nd outlet was added with 14 gauge wire... I replaced that short run of wire with proper 12 gauge and replaced the initial outlet with a GFCI one, as it was near a utility sink and in an unfinished basement. I'm pretty handy for basic things like that, but I'm no electrician or fool, so not even going to attempt to mess with the panel on my own especially consider its 46 years old, just as old as the one in the video oddly enough lol
100A main is now code. You can try and cheat by combining lighting loads and using LED lights. You really probably need to do a service upgrade which won’t be cheap, 200A services are kinda the standard around here in MN but I was doing new builds that incorporated EV chargers and what not.
@@AdamS-lh2ug yup, forgot to mention that, will be contacting provider in our area and they offer free upgrade. We’re going with a 200A service from the 60. They will be replacing the Pad mounted transformer as well (it’s old and rusted) it services 4 or 6 homes and running a new line into our meter from there. The idea is to future proof for EV charging, might even have electricians install that at the same time if it’s economical, in terms of having the team out there already.
@@AdamS-lh2ug Anything less than 200a panel today is obsolete indeed, not just for load capacity but to be able to have enough ckts for enough outlets around the house. And the 200A panel bus bar is bigger, so it does allow for things not to dim the lights elsewhere when a washer or AC turns on. like in house when I was a kid, no main breaker!! (60A panel with like 6 breakers for an entire split level, when the washer would turn on, the lights in the kitchen would dim, oy vey) I have 5 mini splits in my house(super efficient, no turn on draw, inverter driven, old AC units are OBSOLETE)...so that is 10 spaces used right there electric stove electric hot water..spaces get used up pretty quick like. Even my hi fi at 5200W RMS, yes 5200 W 4 mono amplifiers use 3 separate 15 amp ckts..house originally had a 150A ckt built in 1977 it was grossly used up, with too many tandems
@@cengeb 150 amps was really big for 1977 indeed. My sister and her boyfriend live in a tract house built in 1995, and has a 100 amp service. But it's a small house I think around 1250 ft³ and the only 240 volt appliances are the dryer and central AC.
Hi, Joel. I found your YT channel many months ago. My good friend, Al Hildenbrand, Al's Electric Works, died from complications of CoVid in April, after defeating cancer for months. I'd known him for 43 years, as he was my electrician when I was a GC and when I left the field, our personal electrician. He would have found your channel of extreme interest and I follow you in his remembrance. Added bonus, I'm a Hoosier, transplanted to Minnesota. Born in Muncie, raised in Edinburgh, and graduated from Jeffersonville (and two degrees from IU-Bloomington). You're good, dude. I RESPECT your knowledge and LOVE your client relations. Keep up the good work!
I just found your channel, and plan to binge watch it. I did residential service a few decades ago before moving on to commercial construction. I've done more Eckards, Starbucks, Subways and Petsmarts than I can remember. I love the way you communicate with the home owner. I tried to do the same but sometimes had lessor results. There have been instances where thing went crazy, like a tenant calling us to do work on a very bad service panel, then telling us to call the landlord who had no idea what we are doing. There are so many stories I could tell. I'm retired now and love your video.
Love the communication with the customer. Well done Joel. Would you do an external disconnect that’s in the 2020 and 2023 code as well? Good Insurers do provide a discount for these safety features.
Like the video. Also I'm increasing my knowledge watching your videos. You would make a good teacher, (you already are, but in a school). Also I like seeing that I haven't done anything horribly dangerous or stupid in the advanced homeowner level projects I have done over the years..
Very good video showing the problem and great advise to the customer. I would have done the same. Many people do not realize how important is when it comes to understanding the issues related to old panels and breakers. Myself having work for years dealing with troubleshooting electrical problems and fixing them have seen a lot. At the same time I always explain the issue to the customers so they can understand what goes on. Congratulation
I find it very strange that you wouldn't re-torque those aluminum entry cables. Any good electrician worth his salt would automatically have re-torqued all aluminum wire terminations and once you determined that the arcing was at the breaker lug, cleaned it up and made sure the connection included a decent amount of termination grease to prevent future oxidation. Nope, instead you sold the customer a whole new breaker panel installation. You also knowingly left the panel in the same unsafe condition. This is what gives tradesmen a bad reputation.
i do agree.. and im confused.. why do entire panels need replaced ? its confusing.. ive seen other electrical channle do this do.. oh your panels needs replaced.... but they dont explain why ? A panels is just a box.. with a ground/neutral strip.. and flat sheets of metal going from the main breaker down for other breakers to clip into.. so why does this need replaced.. if the breakers constantly pop or arc.. wouldnt simply tightening.. then replacing the breakers be a way to fix this ?? my 60 year old barn has a 100 amp panel... its got room for 4 more breakers.. one i just used tonight.. all i did was simple go to lowes.. and replace every single breaker for the panel.. clean and vacuum the bugs and debris and call it a day.. why does the entire thing need replaced.... im seriously asking do you know why ?? same for my house... its 30 year old panel.. i tightened every breaker... but now on this house.. i do have lights flickering.. even with no load.. like i turn on kitchen lights.. no a.c nothing is on and they will flicker randomly.. lights anywhere in the house do this.. i replaced every light fixture and receptacle and light switch myself.. still does it.... i dunno why ?
I was thinking the exact same thing. The arcing looked like it was coming from the lug…. Easy inexpensive fix. If it was something else he should have shown that. Instead he looks like a con artist taking advantage of unknowing customers.
Yeah I was very confused by this as well. I am not a master electrician, but I’ve worked with it for a good part of my life and I’ve built two tiny homes all of which I wired my self and the way I was always taught was aluminum wire gets hot, then expands and contracts over time and will cause those screws to come loose. Which I would think is causing the arch. In this case it sounds like this has been going for a while so the main breaker probably need to be replaced as well. Personally, I’m not trying to call anyone out or sound like the smartest guy in the room, I hope the creator of this video replies as I’d like to learn something new. Also did he say in the beginning that a electrical panel only has a life of 5 years? Did I misunderstand something? because that seems not right. I can understand wanting to change the panel out to something a little nicer and fancier, but if changing out your electrical panel every 5 years is something your suppose to do then literally everyone I know and ever will know is going to have some issues because no one does that lol.
@@chrisbeaubien4589 think he said 30 years for panels. Ive heard that nefore too.. but evrryone who says that.. never says why ? A panel is a box.. with a buss bar or two buss bars for neutral and ground.. and a flat sheets of metal with clips for breakers. Thats it. What in 30 years or 40 or 50 years creates the need to replace it ? Im not being a smart ass.. i just really want to know. Besides needing new breakers which i get.. what does the physical panel have to do with anything ??.. My barn panel is 50 years old.. the breakers were weak tripping.. i replaced em with identical ones in lowes. No issues since.. so why would the panel itself need replaced ? As i said its just a box. Buss bars.. flat sheet of metal with clips to hold a breaker..
@@chrisbeaubien4589 If breakers are still available, there would be no reason to change out the panel with one exception. If it was a Federal Pacific Stab-Lok panel, it should get replaced ASAP, it was recalled a long time ago. In this case, it was not a Federal Pacific panel. For this home owner, it might be nice to add one or two neutral/ground bars to the box to clean up the wiring a bit. They're cheap. But that's pretty much all they need, after dressing and torquing all aluminum cables. You'd have a customer for life and maybe even a bunch of referrals.
Teck explained issues spot on. Personal preferences by electricans with year's experience understand heat factors and how to lower those heat factors with quality materials and workmanship
As an electrician, I can say you do inject some "honor, pride, professionalism and respect" to the trade. You know it's a full time job to counter some of the clowns with tools out there... Excellent channel !
Good call. Because we charge $50 for estimates, we often try to tune up anything we can on the first go. Given the panel needs replacing, none of the other issues needed tuning this time
I wish all trade skill workers were this professional. Find the problem by testing then figure out how to fix it right and explain things to the customer with prices and options.
This happened to me today! I got a service call customers basement was going out. Basement had a sub, opened up main and B phase was arching ridiculously. Breaker was failing
Back when i lived in an apartment, we had a microwave that acted like it was failing, replaced it and the new microwave did the same thing, one day i was near the breaker panel when the microwave was going and i could hear sizzling. pulled the panel and found the breaker to the microwave. yanked the breaker and the bus bar attachment point was burned and pitted from the arcing. got a new breaker and installed it on another free post and it solved the issue for us and let the groundskeeper know for future (annoyingly at this apartment repairs never happened as head office failed to pay people causing repairs to take weeks or more, so i did all the repairs i could myself)
Guys, lucky Indiana has not adopted the 2020 NEC yet. Would have been a lot more than 2 grand if you had to put the disconnect outside, surge protector, and update grounding and bonding. It's more like 5 grand here in my neck of the woods. Nice upsell on the Leviton smart panel, though Joel!
I understand with a full service change (riser, meter, and panel), having to install the exterior disconnect (in an area that's adopted 2020), but wouldn't you be allowed to replace the existing 200A panel with a new 200A panel if you're not upgrading anything?
@Anthony Ingersoll great question. In my area if you are replacing a panel you have to bring the whole system up to current code. The only part of the service that can be replaced without doing everything along with it is the line side service cable and weather head. The cable on the line side of the meter only. Always work with your authority having jurisdiction in your area to see whats required tho.
Panels that claim to be "smart" will only lead to trouble. stick with dumb, GE, Siemens, Square D....you know all that bluetooth, this and that will be a nightmare as it's too new....someone will hack into your AC panel, and turn you on and off?!!!
I had a partial panel failure in the service entrance on my home. Turns out the meter socket all the way to the buss bar on one branch was loose and arcing. Replaced the panel on my own, got it inspected, and off and running. I had to relocate the panel per the electric company's requirement, so the job involved opening a wall, penetrating the roof with a new mast, weather head, and roof flashing. Had to reroute the house wiring going to the panel and additionally drive in two ground rods.
Just had a 250 amp 3 phase panel that the 3 bolts that bolt on the main breaker to the bus bars the middle leg was glowing red hot. It was at a coffee shop the main tripped. I tightened each of the legs and the middle leg the bolt snapped off. Had to remove the main breaker and take the broken bolt out
For all you people that are watching this video and you're saying that's great he found the issue it's safer to swap it off and get a new panel no it doesn't really matter if you get a new panel or you fix this one it's like replacing your car because it's 20 years old because your drive shaft went bad or an axle went bad or your valve cover was leaking and main breaker depending on the amps would cost you let's say for a quality one about a hundred bucks won't you turn off the service pull the meter or have somebody pull the meter you could clean up the terminals put some dielectric grease on them slide in the new breaker tension everything down and that's it The bus bar he's talking about in the back for any residential person here that is not familiar with electric it's just simply a metal rod that goes down and it divides the power up AB between each side left right left right left right not like it's three phase or anything if the person has the money then sure but if the person's already spent hundreds if not thousands on contractors coming in multiple times one you wasted your money on whoever came in prior for something so simple and two you can fix it for way less and be good to go for another 10 20 years until you move out or die
Yup I change those things out and go to copper bus bar panels. CH Cutler hammer or QO square D. That was the problem from the get go they put in aluminum bus bar panel and Over time it oxidized and failed. That's what you get for putting a cheap panel in
Is that a Murray breaker? Also when up-sale to new equipment ask the client about solar in the near future. Good time to get provisions started for solar if the client is interested.
I went through this earlier this year. Microwave made the lights blink. Bad news; I traced it to an arc behind the main breaker. Good news: I know my limits and I'm not touching L1 and L2. Good news: I know a couple of electricians. Bad news: Gould now longer makes electrical panels. Good News: They were bought by Eton and Eaton still makes breakers for the panel. Bad news: Lead time. Good news: Oh look, my electrician friend happens to have a spare BR100 breaker. More good news: He can send someone over tomorrow to take care of it. Yeah BR100. House is small and has only a 100 amp service. More good news: He gave me the Friends & Family rate for what was a 20 minute job.
$2K to replace a panel. I'm so glad the small town my house is in I was able to replace my 50+ Year old panel myself. For a few hundred $$ and a few $$ for the Code inspection. I don't recommend self replacement unless you really know what you're doing. I did apprentice work so I understand how not to blow myself up or burn down my house. Unfortunately some towns don't allow homeowners to do this work themselves unless they are licensed.
I had a problem like this. I had to change every outlet plus the 220 range outlet and main breaker(300 bucks). Turns out the wife likes to boil water on the stove a lot the steam tooled down the wall and was shorting everything out. Some people should live in the woods
40 year old panel what the yikes does the meter base look like, also I’m assuming it’s an underground service? 10hrs to change out a panel geez…. I need to slow down. I can upgrade a 200amp overhead in 5 or 6hrs outside in. What am I missing here?
I hear you! I literally just had my 200A service panel replaced by a local electrician. 6 hours, 24 circuit - and I think a good hour of that time was waiting on the utility to disconnect/come back reconnect the house. 10 hrs seems excessive.
Nice video Joel, you might want to fact check the function of the Leviton smart breakers. My understanding is that the only provide remote off and not on control in addition to the circuit monitoring features.
I recently had an interesting one like this. A 100A sub panel had arcing between the nm/se cable clamp, and the panel housing. There was 3 armored cables and 3 romex circuits. I thought there was feed back coming through one of the armored cables armor but if you shut the lighting (romex) circuit breaker off the arcing would stop. I continuity tested all the armored cables for continuity between the armor and hot and neutral but couldn't find any issues.
i never understood why people pull out working armored cable and replace with nm. If its what the customer wants, thats understandble, but installers usually never mention the option to have mc. I have always perffered to use armored cable, either as a replacement or adding new circuits. I also find it much DIY friendly in case of the homeowner drills and hits an armored jacket,.It'll trip right away and its very hard for spade bits to go even dent that metal jacket.
@@alan885 I dunno, I couldnt find the stray power, all the armored cables tested fine, the clamps were loose on the housing so I tightened them up, which stopped the arcing but I never could find where it was coming from.
I have a 60+ year old Cutler Hammer panel and it works just fine. I don't have much in the way of electric heating loads - furnace is oil, water & dryer are gas. Cutler Hammer became part of Eaton in 1974 and breakers are still available. I changed some breakers & wiring to have 20A circuits where 15A was. No sparking or arcing and no 'debris' in the bottom of the enclosure. If equipment is of high quality and properly installed age should not be an issue.
yea but they make more money telling you replace every thing were it be alot cheaper to buy new main braker if they still make them for your box get another 20 years out of it or if going to replace box get one with same kid of brakers so you can use you old ones over and just have deferent main boxes dont go bad and brakers hardly ever go bad on less there a main
I've used lots of Leviton, mainly because that's what the big box store carries. The materials and junk and the warranty service literally just throws things out. Good luck with that.
Their receptacles and switches are pretty trash unless you step up to commercial grade, but their panels are very nice and expensive compared to other brands. There’s a reason Joel charges $300 more for a Leviton panel
I’ve installed a dozen or So Levington 200 A MCB panels, I haven’t had any problems at all I think their concepts & designs are great maybe a : ( little more wiring space on each side of the panel would be nice) but I understand why. I love the sleek design along with Wi-Fi capabilities and just the easiness of changing out breakers and upgrading to smart breakers without any additional wiring Once the WiFi interface hub is installed. Can you share your experiences and any issues That you may have incurred ? Thank you
I was licensed plumber for 35 years, there was nothing scarerer then removing water meter and lights start to flicker, and arcing between meter and meter tail pieces.
Sounds like a neutral fault with neutral current being carried over the premises earthing system, being at least in part the buried plumbing. Plumbers have been shocked and even electrocuted by it. In the USA the fault tends to be hidden from the consumer because of the 120/0/120 supply. 240V loads don't impose any significant load on the neutral and 120v devices on one phase can be satisfied in part or whole by 120V loads on the other phase with little neutral current and resulting tell tale voltage drop on the 120V circuits. Always turn the electrical supply off completely when working on any part of the earthing system, even if it is the plumbing, and put a bond wire across the section you are breaking because the fault current in the earth system may not even be coming from the premises you are attending. Better to burn a little time to be safe rather than being dead.
had a similar issue last year. had to replace my main panel due to the main breaker doing arks and i could even see the sparking on it so had to replace the back of it as the buss bar was melted and burned out so another expense that had to be rushed replaced. grrrr expenses over expenses
It’s live neutral and cpc - circuit protective conductor. Board should be fitted with rcbos for lighting and socket circuits and all breakers upgraded to c type
I had that happen in a rental house once. I had to drag the landlord over to the box and make him LOOK at it before he'd believe me anything was wrong with it. We're lucky it didn't wreck our stuff. It was cutting out one of the phases intermittently.
Yikes, we appreciated that this homeowner knew his stuff and had already grounded his expectations, but we've definitely had some stubborn customers too!
I'm not sold on anything smart as it's more things to fail. I'm shocked that Arc-fault and GFI are not required everywhere. When I redid my service 15 years ago its was required in SE WI, especially for wet (basement, bathrooms) or outdoor (garage & shed) spaces.
How much was it to just replace the main breaker? I am pretty sure that would have been my choice assuming the bus was not cooked... This story of Next gen/span breaker panels are still in its infancy who knows what it is going to look like in 10 years and if Leviton/Span will even still be making panels? It also sounds good having the flexibility to upgrade to a smart breaker in the future, just what are the chances of that after installing a new panel for $2500? He might have been better staying with his old panel for the next 10 years and upgrading to that new technology once it is really needed, IE if he were installing solar panels...
@@CortexGaming Exactly, which is why I would just be replacing the main breaker if it were cheap... I just googled it... $851 refurbished... the $2K new panel is sounding better...I think siemens sells a replacement for a Murray MD2200H for $200
This is about electricians teaching electricians what is good for electricians (and in this case, the customer). Joel can justify his full replacement suggestion and the customer sees the merit in it and agrees. Besides, if we wait for the "next big thing" there will likely be other failures in the panel. Why wait for the fire?
@@raygunsforronnie847Breakers fail all the time, I think that is a Murray panel, not a federal pacific, I think Siemens make a plug in main replacement for that panel. I don't think safety was in question as much as age and the wire in that home is just as old... Personally, assuming the bus is not cooked, I would rather pay $200 and be done that day and worry about the upgrade later... That is not to say Joel did not make the correct assessment as a business owner and liability... but for $2300, does that price include installing $100 AFCI/GFCI breakers? The $2000 panel might be a good deal if it is going to cost $500+++ to replace the main in that old panel which is probably the case if they are charging $600 for surge protection. Just saying I installed whole home surge protection in my 20 year old Siemens panel for under $100 pus I just installed a new equivalent Siemens panel in my garage, same vintage of breakers as in that murray panel. I am ok with not having the latest tech breaker because they are still evolving...
@@ericfraser7543 i agree with you, i dont know if 2k included arc fault breakers, but if it was, this honestly a low price. not to mention the troubleshooting you may have to do when you get tripping from shared neutrals or neutrals bonded to ground. it can be a real headache. in most jurisdictions, they dont require arc fault breakers for a direct panel replacement for the reason above. the contacts on the main breaker are pitted, so a direct replacement should work just fine. from a business standpoint, selling a new panel is the correct way to go, but from a personal standpoint, mcb replacement is more practical.
I just can't believe Indiana and Kansas are still on 2008 NEC. But what is even stranger is that Arizona, Illinois, Missouri, and Mississippi have not adopted any version of the NEC statewide at all. I sure would like to only deal with the 2008 NEC right about now though. It is getting harder and harder to sell panel changes with all the extra expense of outdoor emergency disconnects, AFCI's, etc. A lot of people just won't or cannot pay for it, so insist on a quick fix, or do the work themselves. Sometimes I wonder if the added requirements don't sometimes have the opposite effect on safety overall.
MrHetero, yes the cost of arc faults is causing me to postpone a panel changeout that I really should be doing. So yes the safety requirements are making my panel less safe.
Can you comment on the freezer in front of the panel? I have been taught that there needs to be 3 feet clear in front of the panel. How do you deal with this code violation?
How are you able to install a new panel, even a basic panel, for around $2 grand? I'm in south Louisiana and the materials alone for a panel replacement cost me a little more than $2100.
IS double lugging grounds and neutrals a code violation? I think not. I believe its manufacturer dependent. Please correct me if im wrong but certain manufacturers allow double lug on the bars. Barring, any local codes that may be in Indiana...
Yes and no: NEC 110.3(B), the code technically tells you to follow the manufacturers' specs, so it's a code violation based on if you're following that. Double lugging comes down to the rating of each lug. Often terminal bars in panels are rated for only 1 wire per terminal, but if they're rated for it, go for it. Obviously miss low if you're unsure.
Who would spend almost 10 grand on a breaker box? Friggn crazy.. you can have your entire service upgraded and almost the entire house rewired for that.. especialy with a open ceiling basement..
All it is is the main breaker being loose and arcing with the heavy load going through it I would have been fired the first couple years working in the field if I spend this long on a simple issue
Can anyone give me more information about the Siemens class action lawsuit?!? I have had nothing but hair pulling since I moved into my house with breakers tripping all the time!! Thank you!
My house flickers though... i dont know why.. its 30 years old.. i tightened all the breakers.. replaced every light and receptable and light switch in the house.. and sometimes the kitchen lights and bedroom lights will flicker randomly.. i dont know why.. and they do this with no load.. meaning no a.c no heater.. nothing.. my question though is why does the whole panel need replaced ? just curious what the entire panel has to do with a faulty main breaker ?? explain this to me please.. ive heard other videos saying oh replace the entire panel ? but why ? Im also confused.. why didnt you mention the unsafe location of the panel... its right next to a window.. that isnt safe at all. also how do you clean up all; the neutral and ground wires ? its not like you can get just eliminate them all if there are all those wires.. so how does that work ? because this guys panel is basically what mine looks like.. multiple ground and neutrals in one hole and none are available.. just all over the place on my 200a house panel. why does anyone care or need this fancy smart breaker... ive been building computers for 26 years im a nerd.. and even i wouldnt care about a smart panel... replacing breakers ?? so what were so stupid now that using a flat tip screw driver to remove 1 wire is too hard to do ? how often do breakers go bad ??? this guy will be 80 years old before hell even need to get to that point.. .doubt youll reply.. no one does on this kind of stuff.. but hey
I like the video. I’m a Union Electrician out of Pittsburgh Pa. Just curious of what city your in. I noticed the numbers your throwing out there. It’s like $2500 for a service upgrade here this includes materials and labor. I’m sure some may charge more especially big contractors. But you said it’s about that just for a panel swap. I know states and cities have various prices I swapped a panel out for $400 and know I could’ve gotten more. It took me about six hours this panel was old with old wiring. Maybe you could give me some counsel.
$400 to swap a panel? Are you in a time warp, it's not 1960, oy vey, with today's stuff easy $5K !! all the GFCI AFCI, main disconnect outside, surge protection
i hhave a 60 year old barn with the original 100amp panel.. its ok, but the former 50x25 foot kennle from 83 the 100amp panele.. cizzled like this when we turned it back on after 15 years... most likely bugs though... its been fine for a year.. never took the panel off yet to look.. i probly should haha.. the sizzling only happened for like 15 seconds. then stopped.. we have stink bugs here in va that like to get into everything
Hello, love the channel! I have a question as a 2 year helper/apprentice, didn't arc fault requirements for pretty much all the house (except couple exceptions) in the NEC of 2008 ? Heard you talking about arc fault getting introduced in 2020 in the video which kinda confused me a bit! Also the price for swapping the panel (2k) is pretty low concidering the prices of all the arc fault breakers, gfci breakers and combos (they re like 100$ for QOs)
Great questions!! The NEC did introduce arc-fault in 2008. The state of Indiana did not adopt that, but likely will when we adopt the 2020 NEC. #behindthetimeshereinindiana
According to our local inspector here in CT as long as you don't modify a circuit by more than 6 feet our code does not require you to upgrade them to arc-fault. Even so the cost to upgrade a panel here would be a lot more than that.
I had a similar issue pop up when I bought a new video game. My PC should have been able to handle it easily....but the way modern PCs are set up, a certain amount of current draw or line noise can cause stability issues even if they normally shouldn't. Every step in a PC's circuit (between the wall and the PC and back again) is designed to filter out noise, adjust for voltage spikes/drops, and current spikes/drops. While that is good in theory, it can lead to hard-to-find issues much like nuisance tripping on a GFCI or AFCI circuit. In my case, those adjustments happen 1) at the PC's battery backup, 2) the PC's power supply, 3) the motherboard, and 4) the graphics card. So when I started having power issues with my PC, I worked through the chain listening for arcing or tripping relays. I had to change tactics though, because that was when my power went out, at least partially. No tripped breakers, no heat/arcing/buzzing/smoke from the electrical panel. I even reset every breaker, but nothing would get the power to come back on. It was just plain weird. So back to the PC's circuit path. The graphics card was fine, the motherboard was fine, but I noticed a relay clicking in my power supply and on my battery backup, so I replaced both. Still no power to my PC or the random lights/outlets that were also down around my house. That was a couple of days worth of troubleshooting. I was about to take my co-worker up on his offer to check the breaker panel when I saw a night light that had popped halfway out of its receptacle. I noticed it was also off the day before but I didn't see it hanging out of the wall. I pulled it out, plugged it back in, and it worked again. One mystery solved right? But then I noticed EVERYTHING was working again. WTF? I unplugged it again and everything still worked, so I left the little light sitting on my desk. I have not been able to replicate the issue since, so I've just stopped troubleshooting until another opportunity presents itself. My working theory is this: All of the power delivery parts of my PC's circuit have small disc capacitors as part of their surge protection (same as in most power strips). They only get used when a HUGE power surge like a lightning strike risks damaging the connected equipment. They are VERY high resistance components so manufacturers will put 3 of them wherever AC power enters the device: Hot-Neutral, Hot-Ground, and Neutral-Ground with 1 capacitor bridging each. I have a feeling that something caused power to switch from flowing Hot to Neutral, and instead tried using Hot-Ground as the circuit path thanks to Ground and Neutral being joined at the panel. But any device with a 3-pronged plug will have different pathways for ground and neutral, and the device wouldn't work. The nightlight was only using hot-neutral though, so I suspect plugging it in somehow fixed the issue. Ground fault? That's my bet.
Just remember , you can’t install arc fault breakers on existing panels sharing neutrals on branch circuits., they have to be dedicated. Other than that excellent job..!!!
Something bothers me besides the house being all done in rope. The ground bar is full and so is the neutral bar with some of those being dbl’d up?!? Sounds like the grounds are being landed on the neutral bar, which don’t even get me started. Arc faults are a sham and are no longer required thank god. I would’ve shut down the breakers then the main and inspected the damage before I forced the customer into a $2000 upsell(especially since service calls are 2 hr mins) I do residential, commercial, and industrial and 99/100 it’s not a bad breaker it’s due to bad connections…just saying.
I did electrical work for 40 years. I don't know why I watched this all the way through, but I did ..
You can tell he's an insurance adjuster because he didn't even try to pick a fight when it came to replacing the panel. He's probably seen the aftermath of electrical fires before
Uh, anytime you can show the customer actual to them LIGHTNING in their home with sparks flying, you can be sure you will can upsell to the max :)
Ballsy to go on video as an insurance guy like this!
As a Residential Apprentice, I appreciate the videoed interaction with the customer and hearing his complaint of the issues! Great video!
if only he didn't lie to the customer and upsell a entire panel instead of the main breaker replacement which is what the issue is.
had one like this at work, but didnt need the thermal cam. had off/ on problems throughout the office. after opening that panel, one of the bolts holding down a main lug was partially melted and glowing a bright orange. it was so bright, a employee asked me what that ''orange led'' was for!
😱
Oh man... What a great example of 1-1 with the costumer and coordinating all the stuff for a great service. What has me stumped is how the Utility Company works so seamlessly with the electrician over there. Here in PR (Puerto Rico, US territory), the Utility (Government owned and operated), is a dice roll to work with. For a simple meter removal, you need to file a repair certification, pay a bunch of fees, submit it personally to the nearest regional office, wait for the meter to be removed at any random moment without prior notification, and it can be anywhere between a couple of days to a month... And it's basically the same inverted process to get the meter back on, so the costumer will be out of power for a while. This completely unreliable/random process makes most people skip on fixing their electrical systems, always patching up stuff by non-electricians or DIY, and promotes illegal tag cutting and meter tampering practices... I'm in love seeing how stuff works so smoothly over on the mainland US. Someday, if private competition and operation of the grid is enabled here, we might see some improvement. In the meanwhile, we might as well call ourselves a third world "Republic".
Very interesting (though a bummer for you 😅)! Thanks for sharing. Is it just a personnel shortage issue?
From the UK. Don't rely on privatisation to resolve those issues 🙄
Gee, I just throw the disconnect at the meter, and the power stops there. Then I turn it back on when I'm done. Now if you are tapping into the incoming lines to get power before the meter, you have to do that on live wire. Or get a long pole and disconnect on the pole.
I just had this happen on my moms Siemens panel. It’s 30 years old and I found the main breaker was not seated to the bus and arcing like your panel. Fortunately we got lucky and a new breaker solved the problem.
Yikes, glad it was a simple fix!
@@ElectricProAcademy Truth be told? I’m glad the bus wasn’t fried. The breaker was in bad shape and was sooooo relieved the bus bar was unscathed.
this guy essentially upsold the customer to a new panel, could have just replaced the breaker.
Our house was built in 1976 and has the original tiny 10 breaker, 60 amp panel. We plan on upgrading it next summer, in its current state it works just fine, but I've noticed that there are just too many outlets/lights/switches on some of those breakers. One 15 amp breaker had 22 outlets/lights on it, about 6 of those were in the basement, I think added by the previous owner as all of them had hot and neutral reversed and 2 had no ground connected for some reason. I ended up just removing that whole run of 6 outlets as we don't currently need them, we'll add them back in on a separate 20 amp breaker on the new panel. Worst of all, there was a 20 amp breaker for the laundry room but a 2nd outlet was added with 14 gauge wire... I replaced that short run of wire with proper 12 gauge and replaced the initial outlet with a GFCI one, as it was near a utility sink and in an unfinished basement. I'm pretty handy for basic things like that, but I'm no electrician or fool, so not even going to attempt to mess with the panel on my own especially consider its 46 years old, just as old as the one in the video oddly enough lol
60A main? You need to upgrade your main service line too... and someone to go through all your wiring...
100A main is now code. You can try and cheat by combining lighting loads and using LED lights. You really probably need to do a service upgrade which won’t be cheap, 200A services are kinda the standard around here in MN but I was doing new builds that incorporated EV chargers and what not.
@@AdamS-lh2ug yup, forgot to mention that, will be contacting provider in our area and they offer free upgrade. We’re going with a 200A service from the 60. They will be replacing the Pad mounted transformer as well (it’s old and rusted) it services 4 or 6 homes and running a new line into our meter from there. The idea is to future proof for EV charging, might even have electricians install that at the same time if it’s economical, in terms of having the team out there already.
@@AdamS-lh2ug Anything less than 200a panel today is obsolete indeed, not just for load capacity but to be able to have enough ckts for enough outlets around the house. And the 200A panel bus bar is bigger, so it does allow for things not to dim the lights elsewhere when a washer or AC turns on. like in house when I was a kid, no main breaker!! (60A panel with like 6 breakers for an entire split level, when the washer would turn on, the lights in the kitchen would dim, oy vey) I have 5 mini splits in my house(super efficient, no turn on draw, inverter driven, old AC units are OBSOLETE)...so that is 10 spaces used right there electric stove electric hot water..spaces get used up pretty quick like. Even my hi fi at 5200W RMS, yes 5200 W 4 mono amplifiers use 3 separate 15 amp ckts..house originally had a 150A ckt built in 1977 it was grossly used up, with too many tandems
@@cengeb 150 amps was really big for 1977 indeed. My sister and her boyfriend live in a tract house built in 1995, and has a 100 amp service. But it's a small house I think around 1250 ft³ and the only 240 volt appliances are the dryer and central AC.
Hi, Joel. I found your YT channel many months ago. My good friend, Al Hildenbrand, Al's Electric Works, died from complications of CoVid in April, after defeating cancer for months. I'd known him for 43 years, as he was my electrician when I was a GC and when I left the field, our personal electrician. He would have found your channel of extreme interest and I follow you in his remembrance. Added bonus, I'm a Hoosier, transplanted to Minnesota. Born in Muncie, raised in Edinburgh, and graduated from Jeffersonville (and two degrees from IU-Bloomington). You're good, dude. I RESPECT your knowledge and LOVE your client relations. Keep up the good work!
@BrucePappas20, sorry for your loss 😢. Thrilled to gain a knowledgeable, Hoosier supporter!
I just found your channel, and plan to binge watch it. I did residential service a few decades ago before moving on to commercial construction. I've done more Eckards, Starbucks, Subways and Petsmarts than I can remember. I love the way you communicate with the home owner. I tried to do the same but sometimes had lessor results. There have been instances where thing went crazy, like a tenant calling us to do work on a very bad service panel, then telling us to call the landlord who had no idea what we are doing. There are so many stories I could tell. I'm retired now and love your video.
I wish I could have seen this install. I like that kind of stuff. Mostly because I can't do it myself anymore.
He has a link to a similar install he did himself toward the end of the video.
Great video! The interaction with the customer was excellent!
Love the communication with the customer. Well done Joel. Would you do an external disconnect that’s in the 2020 and 2023 code as well? Good Insurers do provide a discount for these safety features.
I bet they don't/won't.
Like the video. Also I'm increasing my knowledge watching your videos. You would make a good teacher, (you already are, but in a school). Also I like seeing that I haven't done anything horribly dangerous or stupid in the advanced homeowner level projects I have done over the years..
Very good video showing the problem and great advise to the customer. I would have done the same.
Many people do not realize how important is when it comes to understanding the issues related to old panels and breakers. Myself having work for years dealing with troubleshooting electrical problems and fixing them have seen a lot. At the same time I always explain the issue to the customers so they can understand what goes on. Congratulation
Best channel for electrical information in youtube, you give an explanation while showing the work. Thanks!!
I find it very strange that you wouldn't re-torque those aluminum entry cables. Any good electrician worth his salt would automatically have re-torqued all aluminum wire terminations and once you determined that the arcing was at the breaker lug, cleaned it up and made sure the connection included a decent amount of termination grease to prevent future oxidation. Nope, instead you sold the customer a whole new breaker panel installation. You also knowingly left the panel in the same unsafe condition. This is what gives tradesmen a bad reputation.
i do agree.. and im confused.. why do entire panels need replaced ? its confusing.. ive seen other electrical channle do this do.. oh your panels needs replaced.... but they dont explain why ? A panels is just a box.. with a ground/neutral strip.. and flat sheets of metal going from the main breaker down for other breakers to clip into.. so why does this need replaced.. if the breakers constantly pop or arc.. wouldnt simply tightening.. then replacing the breakers be a way to fix this ?? my 60 year old barn has a 100 amp panel... its got room for 4 more breakers.. one i just used tonight.. all i did was simple go to lowes.. and replace every single breaker for the panel.. clean and vacuum the bugs and debris and call it a day.. why does the entire thing need replaced.... im seriously asking do you know why ??
same for my house... its 30 year old panel.. i tightened every breaker... but now on this house.. i do have lights flickering.. even with no load.. like i turn on kitchen lights.. no a.c nothing is on and they will flicker randomly.. lights anywhere in the house do this.. i replaced every light fixture and receptacle and light switch myself.. still does it.... i dunno why ?
I was thinking the exact same thing. The arcing looked like it was coming from the lug…. Easy inexpensive fix. If it was something else he should have shown that. Instead he looks like a con artist taking advantage of unknowing customers.
Yeah I was very confused by this as well. I am not a master electrician, but I’ve worked with it for a good part of my life and I’ve built two tiny homes all of which I wired my self and the way I was always taught was aluminum wire gets hot, then expands and contracts over time and will cause those screws to come loose. Which I would think is causing the arch. In this case it sounds like this has been going for a while so the main breaker probably need to be replaced as well. Personally, I’m not trying to call anyone out or sound like the smartest guy in the room, I hope the creator of this video replies as I’d like to learn something new. Also did he say in the beginning that a electrical panel only has a life of 5 years? Did I misunderstand something? because that seems not right. I can understand wanting to change the panel out to something a little nicer and fancier, but if changing out your electrical panel every 5 years is something your suppose to do then literally everyone I know and ever will know is going to have some issues because no one does that lol.
@@chrisbeaubien4589 think he said 30 years for panels. Ive heard that nefore too.. but evrryone who says that.. never says why ?
A panel is a box.. with a buss bar or two buss bars for neutral and ground.. and a flat sheets of metal with clips for breakers.
Thats it. What in 30 years or 40 or 50 years creates the need to replace it ? Im not being a smart ass.. i just really want to know. Besides needing new breakers which i get.. what does the physical panel have to do with anything ??..
My barn panel is 50 years old.. the breakers were weak tripping.. i replaced em with identical ones in lowes. No issues since.. so why would the panel itself need replaced ? As i said its just a box. Buss bars.. flat sheet of metal with clips to hold a breaker..
@@chrisbeaubien4589 If breakers are still available, there would be no reason to change out the panel with one exception. If it was a Federal Pacific Stab-Lok panel, it should get replaced ASAP, it was recalled a long time ago. In this case, it was not a Federal Pacific panel. For this home owner, it might be nice to add one or two neutral/ground bars to the box to clean up the wiring a bit. They're cheap. But that's pretty much all they need, after dressing and torquing all aluminum cables. You'd have a customer for life and maybe even a bunch of referrals.
Teck explained issues spot on. Personal preferences by electricans with year's experience understand heat factors and how to lower those heat factors with quality materials and workmanship
As an electrician, I can say you do inject some "honor, pride, professionalism and respect" to the trade. You know it's a full time job to counter some of the clowns with tools out there... Excellent channel !
I enjoy troubleshooting. I'm not sure about the tool belt for a troubleshooting job. But hey, to each their own. Fun video
Good call. Because we charge $50 for estimates, we often try to tune up anything we can on the first go. Given the panel needs replacing, none of the other issues needed tuning this time
I'd go with the $2000 panel ... I don't want ANY electronics in the load center. None.
I had same issue, breaker went up in flames as i was talking to the customer. If you see a red main, stop. And replace!
I wish all trade skill workers were this professional. Find the problem by testing then figure out how to fix it right and explain things to the customer with prices and options.
This happened to me today! I got a service call customers basement was going out. Basement had a sub, opened up main and B phase was arching ridiculously. Breaker was failing
Back when i lived in an apartment, we had a microwave that acted like it was failing, replaced it and the new microwave did the same thing, one day i was near the breaker panel when the microwave was going and i could hear sizzling. pulled the panel and found the breaker to the microwave. yanked the breaker and the bus bar attachment point was burned and pitted from the arcing. got a new breaker and installed it on another free post and it solved the issue for us and let the groundskeeper know for future (annoyingly at this apartment repairs never happened as head office failed to pay people causing repairs to take weeks or more, so i did all the repairs i could myself)
Only another electrician can hear you talk and know, you know exactly!! What your talking about. You are a smart guy 👏🏻
Boy, I'd love to see the teardown on that panel... I'd bet there's all kinds of char and scorch going on.
Definitely best call to replace it.
Guys, lucky Indiana has not adopted the 2020 NEC yet. Would have been a lot more than 2 grand if you had to put the disconnect outside, surge protector, and update grounding and bonding. It's more like 5 grand here in my neck of the woods. Nice upsell on the Leviton smart panel, though Joel!
Well he said in this video that Indiana will adopt the 2020 code in the next year or two
I understand with a full service change (riser, meter, and panel), having to install the exterior disconnect (in an area that's adopted 2020), but wouldn't you be allowed to replace the existing 200A panel with a new 200A panel if you're not upgrading anything?
@Anthony Ingersoll great question. In my area if you are replacing a panel you have to bring the whole system up to current code. The only part of the service that can be replaced without doing everything along with it is the line side service cable and weather head. The cable on the line side of the meter only. Always work with your authority having jurisdiction in your area to see whats required tho.
Panels that claim to be "smart" will only lead to trouble. stick with dumb, GE, Siemens, Square D....you know all that bluetooth, this and that will be a nightmare as it's too new....someone will hack into your AC panel, and turn you on and off?!!!
Wait, that's what the utiltys want, no need to come out and pull the meter for not paying the bill on time, remote control!!!
I had a partial panel failure in the service entrance on my home. Turns out the meter socket all the way to the buss bar on one branch was loose and arcing. Replaced the panel on my own, got it inspected, and off and running. I had to relocate the panel per the electric company's requirement, so the job involved opening a wall, penetrating the roof with a new mast, weather head, and roof flashing. Had to reroute the house wiring going to the panel and additionally drive in two ground rods.
Just had a 250 amp 3 phase panel that the 3 bolts that bolt on the main breaker to the bus bars the middle leg was glowing red hot. It was at a coffee shop the main tripped. I tightened each of the legs and the middle leg the bolt snapped off. Had to remove the main breaker and take the broken bolt out
For all you people that are watching this video and you're saying that's great he found the issue it's safer to swap it off and get a new panel no it doesn't really matter if you get a new panel or you fix this one it's like replacing your car because it's 20 years old because your drive shaft went bad or an axle went bad or your valve cover was leaking and main breaker depending on the amps would cost you let's say for a quality one about a hundred bucks won't you turn off the service pull the meter or have somebody pull the meter you could clean up the terminals put some dielectric grease on them slide in the new breaker tension everything down and that's it The bus bar he's talking about in the back for any residential person here that is not familiar with electric it's just simply a metal rod that goes down and it divides the power up AB between each side left right left right left right not like it's three phase or anything if the person has the money then sure but if the person's already spent hundreds if not thousands on contractors coming in multiple times one you wasted your money on whoever came in prior for something so simple and two you can fix it for way less and be good to go for another 10 20 years until you move out or die
Hello very interesting. Great channel. It would be fun to see you installing the new panel at this house.
Yup I change those things out and go to copper bus bar panels. CH Cutler hammer or QO square D. That was the problem from the get go they put in aluminum bus bar panel and Over time it oxidized and failed. That's what you get for putting a cheap panel in
Is that a Murray breaker? Also when up-sale to new equipment ask the client about solar in the near future. Good time to get provisions started for solar if the client is interested.
you are one great salesman! if that was me, I'd be offering to help do the job!
Need to move that freezer to have accessibility for the panel. NEC 110.26
Had identical panel in my home that was built in 1977. Similar issue melted buss bars main was trash. Had to replace whole thing.
50 year old QO panel in my parent's house going just fine.
My GE now made by ABB. AFCI breakers have had no issues, didn't need any updates installed 200a panel in 2007
this video is like that breaker box lit. informative and enjoyable
I’ve replaced multiple main breakers the same brand you are working on …. All due to all electric house, heat pumps ect.
I went through this earlier this year. Microwave made the lights blink. Bad news; I traced it to an arc behind the main breaker. Good news: I know my limits and I'm not touching L1 and L2. Good news: I know a couple of electricians. Bad news: Gould now longer makes electrical panels. Good News: They were bought by Eton and Eaton still makes breakers for the panel. Bad news: Lead time. Good news: Oh look, my electrician friend happens to have a spare BR100 breaker. More good news: He can send someone over tomorrow to take care of it. Yeah BR100. House is small and has only a 100 amp service. More good news: He gave me the Friends & Family rate for what was a 20 minute job.
$2K to replace a panel. I'm so glad the small town my house is in I was able to replace my 50+ Year old panel myself. For a few hundred $$ and a few $$ for the Code inspection. I don't recommend self replacement unless you really know what you're doing. I did apprentice work so I understand how not to blow myself up or burn down my house. Unfortunately some towns don't allow homeowners to do this work themselves unless they are licensed.
I had a problem like this. I had to change every outlet plus the 220 range outlet and main breaker(300 bucks). Turns out the wife likes to boil water on the stove a lot the steam tooled down the wall and was shorting everything out. Some people should live in the woods
40 year old panel what the yikes does the meter base look like, also I’m assuming it’s an underground service? 10hrs to change out a panel geez…. I need to slow down. I can upgrade a 200amp overhead in 5 or 6hrs outside in. What am I missing here?
Underpromise, overdeliver...
I hear you! I literally just had my 200A service panel replaced by a local electrician. 6 hours, 24 circuit - and I think a good hour of that time was waiting on the utility to disconnect/come back reconnect the house. 10 hrs seems excessive.
Maybe I've been away from the trade too long. Eight to Ten hours on a indoor surface mount panel swap? You're taking this guy for a ride.
Nice video Joel, you might want to fact check the function of the Leviton smart breakers. My understanding is that the only provide remote off and not on control in addition to the circuit monitoring features.
I recently had an interesting one like this. A 100A sub panel had arcing between the nm/se cable clamp, and the panel housing. There was 3 armored cables and 3 romex circuits. I thought there was feed back coming through one of the armored cables armor but if you shut the lighting (romex) circuit breaker off the arcing would stop.
I continuity tested all the armored cables for continuity between the armor and hot and neutral but couldn't find any issues.
i never understood why people pull out working armored cable and replace with nm. If its what the customer wants, thats understandble, but installers usually never mention the option to have mc. I have always perffered to use armored cable, either as a replacement or adding new circuits. I also find it much DIY friendly in case of the homeowner drills and hits an armored jacket,.It'll trip right away and its very hard for spade bits to go even dent that metal jacket.
So what was the issue?
@@alan885 I dunno, I couldnt find the stray power, all the armored cables tested fine, the clamps were loose on the housing so I tightened them up, which stopped the arcing but I never could find where it was coming from.
Please record the job ... Thx
I have a 60+ year old Cutler Hammer panel and it works just fine. I don't have much in the way of electric heating loads - furnace is oil, water & dryer are gas. Cutler Hammer became part of Eaton in 1974 and breakers are still available. I changed some breakers & wiring to have 20A circuits where 15A was. No sparking or arcing and no 'debris' in the bottom of the enclosure. If equipment is of high quality and properly installed age should not be an issue.
yea but they make more money telling you replace every thing were it be alot cheaper to buy new main braker if they still make them for your box get another 20 years out of it or if going to replace box get one with same kid of brakers so you can use you old ones over and just have deferent main boxes dont go bad and brakers hardly ever go bad on less there a main
I've used lots of Leviton, mainly because that's what the big box store carries. The materials and junk and the warranty service literally just throws things out.
Good luck with that.
Their receptacles and switches are pretty trash unless you step up to commercial grade, but their panels are very nice and expensive compared to other brands. There’s a reason Joel charges $300 more for a Leviton panel
I’ve installed a dozen or So Levington 200 A MCB panels, I haven’t had any problems at all
I think their concepts & designs are great maybe a :
( little more wiring space on each side of the panel would be nice) but I understand why.
I love the sleek design along with Wi-Fi capabilities and just the easiness of changing out breakers and upgrading to smart breakers without any additional wiring Once the WiFi interface hub is installed.
Can you share your experiences and any issues That you may have incurred ?
Thank you
Take a voltage drop across the breaker
I was licensed plumber for 35 years, there was nothing scarerer then removing water meter and lights start to flicker, and arcing between meter and meter tail pieces.
Sounds like a neutral fault with neutral current being carried over the premises earthing system, being at least in part the buried plumbing. Plumbers have been shocked and even electrocuted by it. In the USA the fault tends to be hidden from the consumer because of the 120/0/120 supply. 240V loads don't impose any significant load on the neutral and 120v devices on one phase can be satisfied in part or whole by 120V loads on the other phase with little neutral current and resulting tell tale voltage drop on the 120V circuits. Always turn the electrical supply off completely when working on any part of the earthing system, even if it is the plumbing, and put a bond wire across the section you are breaking because the fault current in the earth system may not even be coming from the premises you are attending. Better to burn a little time to be safe rather than being dead.
Love the reality of this
had a similar issue last year. had to replace my main panel due to the main breaker doing arks and i could even see the sparking on it so had to replace the back of it as the buss bar was melted and burned out so another expense that had to be rushed replaced. grrrr expenses over expenses
It’s live neutral and cpc - circuit protective conductor. Board should be fitted with rcbos for lighting and socket circuits and all breakers upgraded to c type
I had that happen in a rental house once. I had to drag the landlord over to the box and make him LOOK at it before he'd believe me anything was wrong with it. We're lucky it didn't wreck our stuff. It was cutting out one of the phases intermittently.
Yikes, we appreciated that this homeowner knew his stuff and had already grounded his expectations, but we've definitely had some stubborn customers too!
I like this customer!
I'm not sold on anything smart as it's more things to fail. I'm shocked that Arc-fault and GFI are not required everywhere. When I redid my service 15 years ago its was required in SE WI, especially for wet (basement, bathrooms) or outdoor (garage & shed) spaces.
You gotta understand, it’s Indiana. “Gonna implement 2020 standards in a couple more years”, 😂😂😂
I work with solar and run into panel issues all the time. If the rails are good, then I would replace some bad breakers. Mostly if we can get parts.
Some nicely exposed wires into those breakers!
How much was it to just replace the main breaker? I am pretty sure that would have been my choice assuming the bus was not cooked... This story of Next gen/span breaker panels are still in its infancy who knows what it is going to look like in 10 years and if Leviton/Span will even still be making panels? It also sounds good having the flexibility to upgrade to a smart breaker in the future, just what are the chances of that after installing a new panel for $2500? He might have been better staying with his old panel for the next 10 years and upgrading to that new technology once it is really needed, IE if he were installing solar panels...
In ten years another form of power generation might be out and he would have this same predicament
@@CortexGaming Exactly, which is why I would just be replacing the main breaker if it were cheap... I just googled it... $851 refurbished... the $2K new panel is sounding better...I think siemens sells a replacement for a Murray MD2200H for $200
This is about electricians teaching electricians what is good for electricians (and in this case, the customer). Joel can justify his full replacement suggestion and the customer sees the merit in it and agrees. Besides, if we wait for the "next big thing" there will likely be other failures in the panel. Why wait for the fire?
@@raygunsforronnie847Breakers fail all the time, I think that is a Murray panel, not a federal pacific, I think Siemens make a plug in main replacement for that panel. I don't think safety was in question as much as age and the wire in that home is just as old... Personally, assuming the bus is not cooked, I would rather pay $200 and be done that day and worry about the upgrade later... That is not to say Joel did not make the correct assessment as a business owner and liability... but for $2300, does that price include installing $100 AFCI/GFCI breakers? The $2000 panel might be a good deal if it is going to cost $500+++ to replace the main in that old panel which is probably the case if they are charging $600 for surge protection. Just saying I installed whole home surge protection in my 20 year old Siemens panel for under $100 pus I just installed a new equivalent Siemens panel in my garage, same vintage of breakers as in that murray panel. I am ok with not having the latest tech breaker because they are still evolving...
@@ericfraser7543 i agree with you, i dont know if 2k included arc fault breakers, but if it was, this honestly a low price. not to mention the troubleshooting you may have to do when you get tripping from shared neutrals or neutrals bonded to ground. it can be a real headache. in most jurisdictions, they dont require arc fault breakers for a direct panel replacement for the reason above. the contacts on the main breaker are pitted, so a direct replacement should work just fine. from a business standpoint, selling a new panel is the correct way to go, but from a personal standpoint, mcb replacement is more practical.
Damn you know your stuff.
Good video. Thanks for sharing.
Ah, man. I wanted to see the 'after' video. Nothing like clean, sexy wiring
Been at this game for over 40 years thermal imaging better put in square d
QO?
@@jovetj Qo all the way
@@brianrichardson7107 I couldn't agree more!
I just can't believe Indiana and Kansas are still on 2008 NEC. But what is even stranger is that Arizona, Illinois, Missouri, and Mississippi have not adopted any version of the NEC statewide at all. I sure would like to only deal with the 2008 NEC right about now though. It is getting harder and harder to sell panel changes with all the extra expense of outdoor emergency disconnects, AFCI's, etc. A lot of people just won't or cannot pay for it, so insist on a quick fix, or do the work themselves. Sometimes I wonder if the added requirements don't sometimes have the opposite effect on safety overall.
MrHetero, yes the cost of arc faults is causing me to postpone a panel changeout that I really should be doing. So yes the safety requirements are making my panel less safe.
@@neilbrookins8428 Some states have exceptions to the code for arc faults in panel change outs.
That's amazing!
Can you comment on the freezer in front of the panel? I have been taught that there needs to be 3 feet clear in front of the panel. How do you deal with this code violation?
Only applies to commercial/industrial.
@@JHNielson4851 - not from what I've read. Can you share the code?
Yeah, that should have been checked first before the utility got involved!
This is great thanks for the awsome video
How are you able to install a new panel, even a basic panel, for around $2 grand? I'm in south Louisiana and the materials alone for a panel replacement cost me a little more than $2100.
Screw smart breakers , screw smart meters ,
IS double lugging grounds and neutrals a code violation? I think not. I believe its manufacturer dependent. Please correct me if im wrong but certain manufacturers allow double lug on the bars. Barring, any local codes that may be in Indiana...
Yes and no: NEC 110.3(B), the code technically tells you to follow the manufacturers' specs, so it's a code violation based on if you're following that. Double lugging comes down to the rating of each lug. Often terminal bars in panels are rated for only 1 wire per terminal, but if they're rated for it, go for it. Obviously miss low if you're unsure.
Who would spend almost 10 grand on a breaker box? Friggn crazy.. you can have your entire service upgraded and almost the entire house rewired for that.. especialy with a open ceiling basement..
Hi Joel. Are you happy with your Klein TI250? Been considering picking one up.
All it is is the main breaker being loose and arcing with the heavy load going through it I would have been fired the first couple years working in the field if I spend this long on a simple issue
Can anyone give me more information about the Siemens class action lawsuit?!? I have had nothing but hair pulling since I moved into my house with breakers tripping all the time!! Thank you!
My house flickers though... i dont know why.. its 30 years old.. i tightened all the breakers.. replaced every light and receptable and light switch in the house.. and sometimes the kitchen lights and bedroom lights will flicker randomly.. i dont know why.. and they do this with no load.. meaning no a.c no heater.. nothing.. my question though is why does the whole panel need replaced ? just curious what the entire panel has to do with a faulty main breaker ?? explain this to me please.. ive heard other videos saying oh replace the entire panel ? but why ? Im also confused.. why didnt you mention the unsafe location of the panel... its right next to a window.. that isnt safe at all. also how do you clean up all; the neutral and ground wires ? its not like you can get just eliminate them all if there are all those wires.. so how does that work ? because this guys panel is basically what mine looks like.. multiple ground and neutrals in one hole and none are available.. just all over the place on my 200a house panel.
why does anyone care or need this fancy smart breaker... ive been building computers for 26 years im a nerd.. and even i wouldnt care about a smart panel... replacing breakers ?? so what were so stupid now that using a flat tip screw driver to remove 1 wire is too hard to do ? how often do breakers go bad ??? this guy will be 80 years old before hell even need to get to that point.. .doubt youll reply.. no one does on this kind of stuff.. but hey
I like the video. I’m a Union Electrician out of Pittsburgh Pa. Just curious of what city your in. I noticed the numbers your throwing out there. It’s like $2500 for a service upgrade here this includes materials and labor. I’m sure some may charge more especially big contractors. But you said it’s about that just for a panel swap. I know states and cities have various prices I swapped a panel out for $400 and know I could’ve gotten more. It took me about six hours this panel was old with old wiring. Maybe you could give me some counsel.
$400 to swap a panel? Are you in a time warp, it's not 1960, oy vey, with today's stuff easy $5K !! all the GFCI AFCI, main disconnect outside, surge protection
lip stick on a pig bro is funny😂😂
That guy is so lucky he didn't end up with a house fire from that panel, so dangerous
i hhave a 60 year old barn with the original 100amp panel.. its ok, but the former 50x25 foot kennle from 83 the 100amp panele.. cizzled like this when we turned it back on after 15 years... most likely bugs though... its been fine for a year.. never took the panel off yet to look.. i probly should haha.. the sizzling only happened for like 15 seconds. then stopped.. we have stink bugs here in va that like to get into everything
Anyone notice the deep freezer cord "Taped" togeather to the ext. cord? Fire waiting to happen...
Hello, love the channel! I have a question as a 2 year helper/apprentice, didn't arc fault requirements for pretty much all the house (except couple exceptions) in the NEC of 2008 ? Heard you talking about arc fault getting introduced in 2020 in the video which kinda confused me a bit!
Also the price for swapping the panel (2k) is pretty low concidering the prices of all the arc fault breakers, gfci breakers and combos (they re like 100$ for QOs)
Great questions!! The NEC did introduce arc-fault in 2008. The state of Indiana did not adopt that, but likely will when we adopt the 2020 NEC. #behindthetimeshereinindiana
According to our local inspector here in CT as long as you don't modify a circuit by more than 6 feet our code does not require you to upgrade them to arc-fault. Even so the cost to upgrade a panel here would be a lot more than that.
I had a similar issue pop up when I bought a new video game. My PC should have been able to handle it easily....but the way modern PCs are set up, a certain amount of current draw or line noise can cause stability issues even if they normally shouldn't. Every step in a PC's circuit (between the wall and the PC and back again) is designed to filter out noise, adjust for voltage spikes/drops, and current spikes/drops. While that is good in theory, it can lead to hard-to-find issues much like nuisance tripping on a GFCI or AFCI circuit. In my case, those adjustments happen 1) at the PC's battery backup, 2) the PC's power supply, 3) the motherboard, and 4) the graphics card. So when I started having power issues with my PC, I worked through the chain listening for arcing or tripping relays. I had to change tactics though, because that was when my power went out, at least partially. No tripped breakers, no heat/arcing/buzzing/smoke from the electrical panel. I even reset every breaker, but nothing would get the power to come back on. It was just plain weird.
So back to the PC's circuit path. The graphics card was fine, the motherboard was fine, but I noticed a relay clicking in my power supply and on my battery backup, so I replaced both. Still no power to my PC or the random lights/outlets that were also down around my house. That was a couple of days worth of troubleshooting. I was about to take my co-worker up on his offer to check the breaker panel when I saw a night light that had popped halfway out of its receptacle. I noticed it was also off the day before but I didn't see it hanging out of the wall. I pulled it out, plugged it back in, and it worked again. One mystery solved right? But then I noticed EVERYTHING was working again. WTF? I unplugged it again and everything still worked, so I left the little light sitting on my desk.
I have not been able to replicate the issue since, so I've just stopped troubleshooting until another opportunity presents itself. My working theory is this: All of the power delivery parts of my PC's circuit have small disc capacitors as part of their surge protection (same as in most power strips). They only get used when a HUGE power surge like a lightning strike risks damaging the connected equipment. They are VERY high resistance components so manufacturers will put 3 of them wherever AC power enters the device: Hot-Neutral, Hot-Ground, and Neutral-Ground with 1 capacitor bridging each. I have a feeling that something caused power to switch from flowing Hot to Neutral, and instead tried using Hot-Ground as the circuit path thanks to Ground and Neutral being joined at the panel. But any device with a 3-pronged plug will have different pathways for ground and neutral, and the device wouldn't work. The nightlight was only using hot-neutral though, so I suspect plugging it in somehow fixed the issue.
Ground fault? That's my bet.
What surge protector will you be installing for him?
What am I missing? Looks like a loose connection.
Men I didn’t know only $300 different but I like to. Know how much for each breaker cost?
Great question!
Been trained with square d soft starts and freq drives Siemens total junk
Good luck with unscrewing the main breaker luggs sometimes
thanks for the vid
Deep Freeze "Working Space" violation.
So, is there a good electrician like Joel here in Austin, TX?
Check out Electrician U here on UA-cam. He's out of Austin. I don't endorse him, but seems to be good at what he does.
I hate Siemens panels not good
0:30 CRITICAL INFO AT THE BOTTOM LEFT!
You know, those don't look like Cat III or Cat IV probes to be sticking into a 200A incomer
Load..!!!!!!! He said LOAD!!!
Just remember , you can’t install arc fault breakers on existing panels sharing neutrals on branch circuits., they have to be dedicated.
Other than that excellent job..!!!
"Future Smart Capable"
Something bothers me besides the house being all done in rope. The ground bar is full and so is the neutral bar with some of those being dbl’d up?!? Sounds like the grounds are being landed on the neutral bar, which don’t even get me started. Arc faults are a sham and are no longer required thank god. I would’ve shut down the breakers then the main and inspected the damage before I forced the customer into a $2000 upsell(especially since service calls are 2 hr mins) I do residential, commercial, and industrial and 99/100 it’s not a bad breaker it’s due to bad connections…just saying.
there is none finer than a square D QO series panel and circuit breakers I would not install leviton devices much less a panel.