I enjoyed this episode like crazy; often times, this topic pops out in my conversations with friends, and now I can say with confidence that “it's the implications” what matters.
You both should do an episode where you delve into books that defy genres and straddle the line between science fiction and fantasy. Dune, Gideon the Ninth, Star Wars, Heroes Die, etc.
Yes! Listening to this video really reminded me of how much fun I have with stories that blur the lines a bit. I’d add the Broken Earth trilogy to your list. …and I really need to give Star Wars a proper chance some day, hah. Never have watched it while actually paying attention. 😅
I think sci fi explores how the world impacts people, and fantasy explores how people can impact the world. Sci fi makes a big change in the world (first contact, artificial intelligence, genetic engineering, etc.) and imagines how that impacts people. Fantasy takes a person or small group and imagines how they might change or impact the world. As a result, in sci fi you might think about how society is changing or should be changed. In fantasy, you might think about how the individual can or should change, which feels much more personally inspiring. (Think about the implications!)
Recently got back into reading Fantasy/Sci-fi again. I really enjoy both of your breakdowns of the genres. While reading, I'm going to keep an eye out for all ideas presented and THE IMPLICATIONS of such realities & journeys! Happy Reading!
I'm one of those readers who wants to "feel" too. But I like a cool world that makes me curious too, asking "what if"... I want both, dang it! This discussion is fascinating, and yes, I made it to the end! 😂😂😂
@@2ToRamble Currently my favorite Sci-Fi novel is The Lives of Tao. It’s about aliens who use humans as hosts to live immortal lives as they try to get off the planet. The novel follows your average gamer who is taken as a host who now has to train to become a secret agent and help fight in the war between the two alien factions. It is the first in a trilogy
Ok... I haven't watched this video yet (just the pre-generic stuff) cause I discovered your channel only recently, but I already have a comment ! A fan of Scify can't be on their high-horse... Maybe ON their spaceship, preferably IN.
The implications! Loved this discussion. I lean more Fantasy than Sci-fi but and currently reading The Expanse series one book a month and am loving the social implications that are brought up. Still love the world building descriptions and magical use in Fantasy as well as well wrote characters though! Loving Star Trek Strange New Worlds at the moment! ❤x
@2ToRamble I also love Fantasy better but i am definately a World first person. Middle Earth, Westeros, Hogwarts, all the best character in the story and the thing that attracts you to want to escape into it the most!
Have you guys read any of the New Wave flavor SF written in the late 50s, 60s, 70s, early 80s? I'm talking Alfred Bester, PK Dick, Ursula K. Le Guin, Samuel R. Delany, David Bunch, Harlan Ellison, Joe Haldeman, Gene Wolfe, Thomas M. Disch, Robert Silverberg, William Gibson, J.G. Ballard, Roger Zelazny, Doris Pischera, I would argue even Arthur C. Clarke in some instances, etc. These writers were interested in examining sociology through the lens of a cold war entrenched western society that was drenching itself in psychedelic drugs, going through a plethora of political and artistic revolutions. I find this era to be endlessly fascinating. I feel like these writers had a lot of important offerings. Much more than just the popular, yet still great - don't get me wrong, books such as Hyperion and Dune. I don't mean to sound like a snob, but this is the true gold in the genre, in my opinion. & with homie in the blue talking about how he enjoys how SF peaks his curiosity, I would urge you to read a lot more New Wave science fiction. New Wave is typically anti-pulp, anti-space opera. These tropes are abandoned for realistic(ish) thought experiments that lead to intellectual breakthroughs. & these writers mostly abandon hard scientific jargon for mature themes, literary flourish, introspective moments and sociological examinations. It can be dark and uncompromising but it can also expand one's mind. It's potent stuff.
@@2ToRamble for sure. Thanks for allowing me a space to 'ramble' 😜 I would say some good starting points are.... Lord of Light - Zelazny Moderan - Bunch The Dispossessed & The Left Hand of Darkness - Le Guin The Beast that Shouted Love at the Heart of the World & I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream (both short stories) - Ellison Downward to the Earth - Silverberg The Stars My Destination - Bester Babel-17 - Delany Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep - Dick (of course) .... But it does get much weirder when you get into the mid tier books that are less famous but these are all big names in that realm for good reasons.
you guys should read suneater, think itd be right up your alley, a scifi/fantasy type book. really good. very cool worldbuilding for richard, and great characters for austin lol
I think sci-fi is more thoughtful and philosophical in general while fantasy is more raw story telling. Obviously there is a lot more to it, but I read sci-fi when I’m in a more philosophical mood and fantasy when I just want to have a good time. The older I get, the more I lean towards fantasy.
Also, something is that Red Rising which is Sci fi and is Austin's fav series but he supports Fantasy and for Richard it's Wheel of Time which is Fantasy but is defending Sci-fi. LMAO
Naturally i love both genre's as do many here. For myself i often find when i want more 'serious'/'mature' themes i will look to Sci-Fi's, but if i want something a bit more of an 'epic' of a tale then i go for a Fantasy. Of course these are not mutually exclusive, rather its just how i go about SF and Fantasy novel choices. Mind you im a bit to stupid to extract all the literary proficiencies of the authors haha
ah yes, 69th episode, a fight at the beginning.... clearly the enemies to lovers being at it again 😚😚😚 all jokes and taunts aside, I will now watch the episode ❤🎉
Do you guys track the books you read anywhere? Loving the podcast, nice to know what your reading history is that informs your POVs. Maybe a top 10 books/series list in the future?
Fantasy has always had more staying power as it speaks to humanity on a deeper level than sci-fi. This is because Sci-fi limits itself to some a level of plausibility. Even the more fantastical sci-fi stories are remembered because of the mystical components not the scientific like Star Wars. Character motiffs are what drive plot not the world building thats just setting context and flavor.
Yous summed up sci-fi & fantasy perfectly, "what if" in sci-fi is personal because it can happen cos it's in our world (usually) but fantasy "what if" is unrealistic, it's less of a threat personally so maybe that's why it doesn't stick in our minds as much Saying that I'm a bigger fantasy fan 😂
I'm not so sure that sci fi is more often tonally dark. Consider Hitchhikers, Battlefield Earth, The Martian, even The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress has a lot of humor and doesn't feel dark although it deals with a (sort of) dystopia, war, and violence. Two of the biggest sci fi TV series are (as Richard mentioned) Star Trek and Doctor Who, which have dark moments but are light overall. Pretty much anything steampunk will be lighter. And on the other side, there's plenty of grim dark fantasy.
Tend to agree with Richard. Potentially hot take, but I really enjoyed the characters in the first law trilogy. They were fantastic. But ultimately I found the world quite dull which made me DNF.
Seems to me that Science fiction is more about big ideas than characters, which are often used as a means to explore these ideas. Fantasy can be about very big ideas, but they are all to facilitate and explore the characters.
I used to work with an old bloke who said when he wasn't reading non fiction, he goes to Sci-Fi for philosophy and Fantasy for mythology and theology. I tend to agree with him.
I found this so interesting. I'm a character person, like Austin, but sci-fi edges out fantasy for me. (I've read 10 of each so far this year though. 😂) I must be reading very different books than you guys because I've found the character stuff I like to be easier to find in sci-fi. Fantasy is much more likely to lose me with a bunch of 'here's how different my world is' jargon right at the start. The things that make the world different from ours are interesting, but I'm really want to know how that affects our main character, or a small group of main characters, I don't really care how it affects the larger world. I'm not sure what the implications of this are.
Gotta say, I have never once considered the statistical likelihood of a book being a worldbuilding vs character focused book when I think about sci-fi vs fantasy. To me sci-fi and fantasy are both magic systems, one is just technology-based magic. I can have two identical time travel stories, if it's technology-based time travel it's sci-fi, if it's magic based time travel it's fantasy... But they are both magic (that said I liked your use of differentiating the magic systems as improbable vs impossible). Cue Self Reflective Stream of Consciousness: Now that I'm thinking about it... I would say that the reason sci-fi feels more worldbuilding focused is a matter of the integration of the magic system. The magic is not simply an element of a character because the technology permeates the structure of the society and economics. And since it's an improbably based magic system (not impossible), it is more likely to lead to deeper exploration to determine if those ideas could be technically applied in the real world. And if they can, the social ramifications of that application. Fantasy feels less worldbuildy because the author tends to focus on other elements to develop the world building. The magic itself is considered a character trait or a plot device or metaphor. I’d say that's why The Will of the Many feels kinda sci-fi, because the magic system is integral to the entire societal structure down to the productivity of their agriculture systems. (Point of note, I have not ruled out that The Will of the Many is actually a sci-fi book since we don’t really understand how the magic system works yet). Personally, I sit somewhere in between you two. I find well developed worlds that result in complicated political scenarios to be the most compelling stories, regardless of whether they are fantasy or sci-fi. My favorite series is a political intrigue story based on an alternate world history if you adjust how western theology developed (and add an element of the fantastical). It's the way society changes within that context that makes it such a good book for me. That said, it's the characters and the development of their relationships that I think about when I think back to the story. And statistically, I do tend to find characters that I care about long term in fantasy more frequently.
Also - I've been binge watching you the last couple days and you've questioned your intelligence multiple times. You're having a philosophical debate about literature based on statistics. You both are definitely intelligent
I read more fantasy than sci-fi, but when it comes to themes and being emotional, sci-fi takes the cake. Malazan and wittnesing the horrors of war, compassion, sacrifice and the respect that is given to the fallen and there are some moments in other series here and there, but sci-fi hits me more. *coughs* Flowers for Algernon *coughs* I'm also more of character driven person, but my favourite books aren't as much. My biggest problem with books is me problem, cause books that are most famous now, aren't my cup of tea. 🤣
@@2ToRamble It's very very very very lite sci-fi. Some people even question, if this book should win a Nebula and Hugo award, because basically the only aspect of sci-fi is an experiment. I do think tho, that this book should be read by everyone.
Great video. If you haven't read it I think both of you would like the Sun Eater series by Christopher Ruocchio. It's got a little bit of the character work that's in Red Rising but also the grand scale of Dune and Hyperion.
I agree that the *implications* matter, but not necessarily that the implications in sci-fi hit me harder than the implications in fantasy. Currently finishing Morning Star by Pierce Brown.
I'll be honest I haven't read much sci-fi except for Hyperion, which the implication is that it's my favorite sci-fi I've ever read! (I don't know... that probably made no sense)
That's makes sense tho now thinking about how romance sells more since you know there is more of it. I am somewhat a romance reader but never really gear towards it, I am like sci-fi lover, but to me romance are easier to make. This can lead to people pumping out more and more romance books while sci-fi you need to do the world building, how each hierachy goes, or how the world powers evil and all stuff. At least to me.
Fantasy uses the past to set up a series of imaginative rules and usually carries a meticulous story out with proper tension gained from knowing more about the world and rules. Sci-Fi usually uses speculation to make a story about where things might go in the future. For me, tension is usually lost in sci-fi as many of its tropes (cloning, multiple universes, etc.) can completely undermine the pre-established rules.
Some things to chew on: The Licanius Trilogy does a lot of work with what does it mean to have free will? Which is the sort of thematic question you typically see in scifi but in fantasy. Then look at Babel by RF Kuang which really takes a look at imperialism, racism, classism and takes a look at all that in a setting where others are abused for their value in making more magic. Again, this is the sort of theme you are more likely to surface in scifi. I guess, in the context of this debate I am not sure that its a winning point for sci-fi on these things that you examine on a society sized scale. You are seeing more and more fantasy that is doing that same thing that scifi does.
Oooo. I (austin) am going to go out on a limb here and say Sci-fi works in the extremes and fantasy will more consistently hold up. I say that because sci-fi is “predicting” futures based on where technology “could” go. And in the future, new tech and scientific discoveries can make the sci-fi world look outdated/wrong. But on the flip side, the new discoveries and technology can make the sci-fi book created decades ago age like fine wine. But whereas fantasy typically is more focused on the past and complete magic - the future doesnt outdate those worlds. So I think fantasy ages better overall.
If you brought The Culture Series by Iain M Banks into the discussion then Sci-Fi wins easily. Amazing characters, world building and ideas that make you think.
I'm only 20 minutes in but I think the distinction might be that fantasy is focused on individuals whereas Sci-fi focuses on society as a whole. . . And the implications of that might have on the story.
@2ToRamble After watching the whole thing, I think the implications are that Sci-Fi is great at giving inspiration of what kind of future to strive for (Star Trek) vs what kind of future to avoid (Dune), and Fantasy teaches you what kinds of people (morally) will lead you to either.
The reason you don't think about fantasy after the fact Rich is because you haven't read ASOIAF yet. There's a reason that fanbase is ravenous. Might be because it was written by a sci-fi author but let's pretend that it's not for the sake of arguing for fantasy.
To me scify is a study on humanity while fantasy is a study on humans.
Damn! Wish we thought of that line. That could be on a poster
Why does that actually make sense
To me the best scifi is philosophical (especially the subset of logic, epistemology, and ethics) whilst the best fantasy is psychological
I enjoyed this episode like crazy; often times, this topic pops out in my conversations with friends, and now I can say with confidence that “it's the implications” what matters.
Haha hell yea. Thanks for watching us
You both should do an episode where you delve into books that defy genres and straddle the line between science fiction and fantasy.
Dune, Gideon the Ninth, Star Wars, Heroes Die, etc.
Great idea
Yes! Listening to this video really reminded me of how much fun I have with stories that blur the lines a bit. I’d add the Broken Earth trilogy to your list.
…and I really need to give Star Wars a proper chance some day, hah. Never have watched it while actually paying attention. 😅
I'd like to see that too!
Made it to the end 🎉 just discovered you guys. Super fun to listen too, enjoy the banter and topics.
Thank you!!
I think sci fi explores how the world impacts people, and fantasy explores how people can impact the world. Sci fi makes a big change in the world (first contact, artificial intelligence, genetic engineering, etc.) and imagines how that impacts people. Fantasy takes a person or small group and imagines how they might change or impact the world. As a result, in sci fi you might think about how society is changing or should be changed. In fantasy, you might think about how the individual can or should change, which feels much more personally inspiring. (Think about the implications!)
Great addition david - definitely agree with you!
very well said
Richard doesn't trust 'lab coat' guys but prefers the genre written by PhD holders. He's so complex. 🤔Love the work guys, thank you.
😂 cheers, thankya for watching
Recently got back into reading Fantasy/Sci-fi again. I really enjoy both of your breakdowns of the genres. While reading, I'm going to keep an eye out for all ideas presented and THE IMPLICATIONS of such realities & journeys!
Happy Reading!
Cheers! Happy reading 🙌
fantasy is about people, sci-fi is about ideas. They take ideas and people to extremes through their genre's elements, correspondingly
The implications… lol 😂 I enjoyed this episode. I prefer fantasy over sci-fi
I'm one of those readers who wants to "feel" too. But I like a cool world that makes me curious too, asking "what if"... I want both, dang it!
This discussion is fascinating, and yes, I made it to the end! 😂😂😂
I can totally imagine you guys having funny arguments on a weekly morning tv show just discussing fantasy and si fi😂❤❤
😁
need to see this type of passion from you guys again
Big fan of the Channel wish it had more reach you guys deserve it
Appreciate the kindness!
Sci fi appeals to me more intellectually, and fantasy more emotionally. But if either is more likely to do both, it's sci fi.
(The implications)
The implications I got from this is that my favorite Sci-Fi book is very very character forward and that you would both love it
Oooo what is it?
@@2ToRamble Currently my favorite Sci-Fi novel is The Lives of Tao. It’s about aliens who use humans as hosts to live immortal lives as they try to get off the planet. The novel follows your average gamer who is taken as a host who now has to train to become a secret agent and help fight in the war between the two alien factions.
It is the first in a trilogy
@@bigflee3556 sorry just getting back to replies - this book sounds amazing holy crap
@@2ToRamble No worries at all. I hope you enjoyed the vacation. My best hook for the book would be “ Imagine Genghis Khan in the body of a nerd”
Really good episode guys, I like the longer video style ❤
Appreciate you!
Ok... I haven't watched this video yet (just the pre-generic stuff) cause I discovered your channel only recently, but I already have a comment ! A fan of Scify can't be on their high-horse... Maybe ON their spaceship, preferably IN.
The implications!
Loved this discussion. I lean more Fantasy than Sci-fi but and currently reading The Expanse series one book a month and am loving the social implications that are brought up.
Still love the world building descriptions and magical use in Fantasy as well as well wrote characters though!
Loving Star Trek Strange New Worlds at the moment! ❤x
Even though I like fantasy a lot, the implications make me go with Richard here😂
😂
Favorite podcast. Very glad I discovered this
Thank you !! Glad you found us
@2ToRamble I also love Fantasy better but i am definately a World first person. Middle Earth, Westeros, Hogwarts, all the best character in the story and the thing that attracts you to want to escape into it the most!
Fair enough!! Those are some fantastic worlds
Have you guys read any of the New Wave flavor SF written in the late 50s, 60s, 70s, early 80s? I'm talking Alfred Bester, PK Dick, Ursula K. Le Guin, Samuel R. Delany, David Bunch, Harlan Ellison, Joe Haldeman, Gene Wolfe, Thomas M. Disch, Robert Silverberg, William Gibson, J.G. Ballard, Roger Zelazny, Doris Pischera, I would argue even Arthur C. Clarke in some instances, etc. These writers were interested in examining sociology through the lens of a cold war entrenched western society that was drenching itself in psychedelic drugs, going through a plethora of political and artistic revolutions. I find this era to be endlessly fascinating. I feel like these writers had a lot of important offerings. Much more than just the popular, yet still great - don't get me wrong, books such as Hyperion and Dune. I don't mean to sound like a snob, but this is the true gold in the genre, in my opinion. & with homie in the blue talking about how he enjoys how SF peaks his curiosity, I would urge you to read a lot more New Wave science fiction. New Wave is typically anti-pulp, anti-space opera. These tropes are abandoned for realistic(ish) thought experiments that lead to intellectual breakthroughs. & these writers mostly abandon hard scientific jargon for mature themes, literary flourish, introspective moments and sociological examinations. It can be dark and uncompromising but it can also expand one's mind. It's potent stuff.
Thanks for the recommendation/direction here. What specific book(s) would you recommend?
@@2ToRamble for sure. Thanks for allowing me a space to 'ramble' 😜
I would say some good starting points are....
Lord of Light - Zelazny
Moderan - Bunch
The Dispossessed & The Left Hand of Darkness - Le Guin
The Beast that Shouted Love at the Heart of the World & I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream (both short stories) - Ellison
Downward to the Earth - Silverberg
The Stars My Destination - Bester
Babel-17 - Delany
Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep - Dick (of course)
.... But it does get much weirder when you get into the mid tier books that are less famous but these are all big names in that realm for good reasons.
@@willp2877 Screenshotted and added to notes -- thankyou!!
@@2ToRamble & thank you guys for the entertaining videos!
Great point, the one Paul Atreides and Dune. Love you both guys.
Ahh thank you!!
My phone died after Austin saying sometimes he just wants to see a toad and I thought Richard was just giving him the silent treatment 🤣
😂😂
sci fi was the genre that got me into reading through Sanderson's Skyward series, i'm specifically into the space operas
just people flying shuttles through space is so fun to me
you guys should read suneater, think itd be right up your alley, a scifi/fantasy type book. really good. very cool worldbuilding for richard, and great characters for austin lol
Absolutely on the list 👊 thank you
@@2ToRambleI’ll second this notion. It needs to be at the top of your list. Immediately.
The implications 😂 I'm team Austin on this one and I'm now enlightened to being a massive character over world kind of reader
The implication.... Of this pod teeters my totter
YES!
I think sci-fi is more thoughtful and philosophical in general while fantasy is more raw story telling. Obviously there is a lot more to it, but I read sci-fi when I’m in a more philosophical mood and fantasy when I just want to have a good time. The older I get, the more I lean towards fantasy.
Also, something is that Red Rising which is Sci fi and is Austin's fav series but he supports Fantasy and for Richard it's Wheel of Time which is Fantasy but is defending Sci-fi. LMAO
We dont make sense 😂😂 (stormlight is my current favorite tho, red rising is close!)
Naturally i love both genre's as do many here. For myself i often find when i want more 'serious'/'mature' themes i will look to Sci-Fi's, but if i want something a bit more of an 'epic' of a tale then i go for a Fantasy. Of course these are not mutually exclusive, rather its just how i go about SF and Fantasy novel choices. Mind you im a bit to stupid to extract all the literary proficiencies of the authors haha
ah yes, 69th episode, a fight at the beginning.... clearly the enemies to lovers being at it again 😚😚😚
all jokes and taunts aside, I will now watch the episode ❤🎉
Do you guys track the books you read anywhere? Loving the podcast, nice to know what your reading history is that informs your POVs. Maybe a top 10 books/series list in the future?
We will definitively reveal a top 10 eventually! We have a spreadsheet with all of our ratings we’re considering having on a website or something.
I didn’t realize Richard likes sci fi so much he should really read schythe
Fantasy has always had more staying power as it speaks to humanity on a deeper level than sci-fi. This is because Sci-fi limits itself to some a level of plausibility. Even the more fantastical sci-fi stories are remembered because of the mystical components not the scientific like Star Wars. Character motiffs are what drive plot not the world building thats just setting context and flavor.
Yous summed up sci-fi & fantasy perfectly, "what if" in sci-fi is personal because it can happen cos it's in our world (usually) but fantasy "what if" is unrealistic, it's less of a threat personally so maybe that's why it doesn't stick in our minds as much
Saying that I'm a bigger fantasy fan 😂
Science Fantasy is really where its at. The stuff that really does it for me these days blends the two genres.
I'm not so sure that sci fi is more often tonally dark. Consider Hitchhikers, Battlefield Earth, The Martian, even The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress has a lot of humor and doesn't feel dark although it deals with a (sort of) dystopia, war, and violence. Two of the biggest sci fi TV series are (as Richard mentioned) Star Trek and Doctor Who, which have dark moments but are light overall. Pretty much anything steampunk will be lighter. And on the other side, there's plenty of grim dark fantasy.
Tend to agree with Richard. Potentially hot take, but I really enjoyed the characters in the first law trilogy. They were fantastic. But ultimately I found the world quite dull which made me DNF.
Seems to me that Science fiction is more about big ideas than characters, which are often used as a means to explore these ideas. Fantasy can be about very big ideas, but they are all to facilitate and explore the characters.
Just started the broken eye by Brent weeks. Exited to read it since Richard regards it so highly in the series
I hope you love it!
Random question but who’s your favourite character in the series?
I love a lot of the characters, but I think Teia is my favorite and most surprising.
I used to work with an old bloke who said when he wasn't reading non fiction, he goes to Sci-Fi for philosophy and Fantasy for mythology and theology. I tend to agree with him.
Ah nice. I like this old bloke
49:36 I think it’s a bit concerning that Austin promised to “screw the viewers”. I’m just saying don’t come showing up on my doorstep!!
😂
I found this so interesting. I'm a character person, like Austin, but sci-fi edges out fantasy for me. (I've read 10 of each so far this year though. 😂)
I must be reading very different books than you guys because I've found the character stuff I like to be easier to find in sci-fi. Fantasy is much more likely to lose me with a bunch of 'here's how different my world is' jargon right at the start.
The things that make the world different from ours are interesting, but I'm really want to know how that affects our main character, or a small group of main characters, I don't really care how it affects the larger world.
I'm not sure what the implications of this are.
Ahh interesting! What are some books that do this really well in sci-fi for you?
I *was* going to comment that I would *NEVER* join your patreon, but... THE IMPLICATIONS!
😁😂
Gotta say, I have never once considered the statistical likelihood of a book being a worldbuilding vs character focused book when I think about sci-fi vs fantasy. To me sci-fi and fantasy are both magic systems, one is just technology-based magic. I can have two identical time travel stories, if it's technology-based time travel it's sci-fi, if it's magic based time travel it's fantasy... But they are both magic (that said I liked your use of differentiating the magic systems as improbable vs impossible).
Cue Self Reflective Stream of Consciousness: Now that I'm thinking about it... I would say that the reason sci-fi feels more worldbuilding focused is a matter of the integration of the magic system. The magic is not simply an element of a character because the technology permeates the structure of the society and economics. And since it's an improbably based magic system (not impossible), it is more likely to lead to deeper exploration to determine if those ideas could be technically applied in the real world. And if they can, the social ramifications of that application.
Fantasy feels less worldbuildy because the author tends to focus on other elements to develop the world building. The magic itself is considered a character trait or a plot device or metaphor. I’d say that's why The Will of the Many feels kinda sci-fi, because the magic system is integral to the entire societal structure down to the productivity of their agriculture systems. (Point of note, I have not ruled out that The Will of the Many is actually a sci-fi book since we don’t really understand how the magic system works yet).
Personally, I sit somewhere in between you two. I find well developed worlds that result in complicated political scenarios to be the most compelling stories, regardless of whether they are fantasy or sci-fi. My favorite series is a political intrigue story based on an alternate world history if you adjust how western theology developed (and add an element of the fantastical). It's the way society changes within that context that makes it such a good book for me. That said, it's the characters and the development of their relationships that I think about when I think back to the story. And statistically, I do tend to find characters that I care about long term in fantasy more frequently.
Also - I've been binge watching you the last couple days and you've questioned your intelligence multiple times. You're having a philosophical debate about literature based on statistics. You both are definitely intelligent
I read more fantasy than sci-fi, but when it comes to themes and being emotional, sci-fi takes the cake. Malazan and wittnesing the horrors of war, compassion, sacrifice and the respect that is given to the fallen and there are some moments in other series here and there, but sci-fi hits me more. *coughs* Flowers for Algernon *coughs*
I'm also more of character driven person, but my favourite books aren't as much.
My biggest problem with books is me problem, cause books that are most famous now, aren't my cup of tea. 🤣
Looks like we have to read Flowers of Algernon 😆
@@2ToRamble It's very very very very lite sci-fi. Some people even question, if this book should win a Nebula and Hugo award, because basically the only aspect of sci-fi is an experiment. I do think tho, that this book should be read by everyone.
Okay so I have a question,so fantasy is dungeons and dragons and sci fi also known as what?
Great video. If you haven't read it I think both of you would like the Sun Eater series by Christopher Ruocchio. It's got a little bit of the character work that's in Red Rising but also the grand scale of Dune and Hyperion.
Definitely on the TBR - so many recommendations, we must read it! Appreciate the shout
SURREEEE IT"S MINOR....the beginning of the video when they were on the verge of killing each other.
this minor disagreement will end deadly ;)
I agree that the *implications* matter, but not necessarily that the implications in sci-fi hit me harder than the implications in fantasy. Currently finishing Morning Star by Pierce Brown.
Ep idea … character driven reader vs plot/world driven reader
Oo! Thank you for the idea !
The implications.
I'll be honest I haven't read much sci-fi except for Hyperion, which the implication is that it's my favorite sci-fi I've ever read!
(I don't know... that probably made no sense)
This makes sense! Yknow, based on the implications
That's makes sense tho now thinking about how romance sells more since you know there is more of it. I am somewhat a romance reader but never really gear towards it, I am like sci-fi lover, but to me romance are easier to make. This can lead to people pumping out more and more romance books while sci-fi you need to do the world building, how each hierachy goes, or how the world powers evil and all stuff. At least to me.
Very true!
Personally I fall more to the fantasy side, but I definitely gotta get back to Star Trek: TNG. The implications of this video...
Yall should do an episode where you argue in favor of the other side. (the answer is obviously Fantasy tho!)
Fantasy uses the past to set up a series of imaginative rules and usually carries a meticulous story out with proper tension gained from knowing more about the world and rules. Sci-Fi usually uses speculation to make a story about where things might go in the future. For me, tension is usually lost in sci-fi as many of its tropes (cloning, multiple universes, etc.) can completely undermine the pre-established rules.
Ah! Thanks for the video idea - and interesting point on sci-fi there!
Some things to chew on: The Licanius Trilogy does a lot of work with what does it mean to have free will? Which is the sort of thematic question you typically see in scifi but in fantasy. Then look at Babel by RF Kuang which really takes a look at imperialism, racism, classism and takes a look at all that in a setting where others are abused for their value in making more magic. Again, this is the sort of theme you are more likely to surface in scifi. I guess, in the context of this debate I am not sure that its a winning point for sci-fi on these things that you examine on a society sized scale. You are seeing more and more fantasy that is doing that same thing that scifi does.
The implications… 😱
(I find I prefer fantasy in books and sci-fi in movies)
Oo yes good distinction there.
I love both
A little off topic but what do you guys think ages Better Scifi or Fantasy?
Oooo. I (austin) am going to go out on a limb here and say Sci-fi works in the extremes and fantasy will more consistently hold up. I say that because sci-fi is “predicting” futures based on where technology “could” go. And in the future, new tech and scientific discoveries can make the sci-fi world look outdated/wrong. But on the flip side, the new discoveries and technology can make the sci-fi book created decades ago age like fine wine. But whereas fantasy typically is more focused on the past and complete magic - the future doesnt outdate those worlds. So I think fantasy ages better overall.
@@2ToRamble I agree
Review the name of the wind.
There will come a day!
@@NousTrapper We may give it a review just because Richard hates it a lot, and I haven't read it yet - so it could be a juicy episode
If you brought The Culture Series by Iain M Banks into the discussion then Sci-Fi wins easily. Amazing characters, world building and ideas that make you think.
Interesting - I (austin) havent heard of this one!
@@2ToRamble im so jealous, you get to experience them for the first time. Start with Consider Phlebas.
I'm only 20 minutes in but I think the distinction might be that fantasy is focused on individuals whereas Sci-fi focuses on society as a whole. . . And the implications of that might have on the story.
🤝
Also. Implications
What do you guys do for a living?
The implications
Star Wars is Sci-Fi and Fantasy, so clearly it's the best.
Fantasy is the best though.
Oh yea. Star Wars uses both elements for sure
@2ToRamble After watching the whole thing, I think the implications are that Sci-Fi is great at giving inspiration of what kind of future to strive for (Star Trek) vs what kind of future to avoid (Dune), and Fantasy teaches you what kinds of people (morally) will lead you to either.
Made it
As much as I love sci-fi,
I prefer fantasy all the way.
🥂
The implications...
The reason you don't think about fantasy after the fact Rich is because you haven't read ASOIAF yet. There's a reason that fanbase is ravenous. Might be because it was written by a sci-fi author but let's pretend that it's not for the sake of arguing for fantasy.
I prefer fantasy because they are more character driven.
Very much agree
it's all about *the implications*
🥂
Science fiction >>>
Fantasy team xdxd
WOO
the implications
The implications...